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IS GOD JESUS OR A TRINITY? May 03, 2007 8:40 PM

Who is this wonderful God? Some persons say his name is Jesus. Others say he is a Trinity, although the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible. According to the teaching of the Trinity, there are three persons in one God, that is, there is “one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many religious organizations teach this, even though they admit it is “a mystery.” Are such views of God correct?   Well, did Jesus ever say that he was God? No, he never did. Rather, in the Bible he is called “God’s Son.” And he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 10:34-36; 14:28) Also, Jesus explained that there were some things that neither he nor the angels knew but that only God knew. (Mark 13:32) Further, on one occasion Jesus prayed to God, saying: “Let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he? In fact, following Jesus’ death, the Scripture says: “This Jesus God resurrected.” (Acts 2:32) Thus, the Almighty God and Jesus are clearly two separate persons. Even after his death and resurrection and ascension to heaven, Jesus was still not equal to his Father.—1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28. ‘But isn’t Jesus called a god in the Bible?’ someone may ask. This is true. Yet Satan is also called a god. (2 Corinthians 4:4) At John 1:1, which refers to Jesus as “the Word,” some Bible translations say: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” But notice, verse 2 says that the Word was “in the beginning with God.” And while men have seen Jesus, verse 18 says that “no man hath seen God at any time.” (King James Version) So we find that some translations of verse 1 give the correct idea of the original language when they read: “The Word was with God, and the Word was divine,” or was “a god,” that is, the Word was a powerful godlike one. (An American Translation) Clearly, Jesus is not Almighty God. In fact, Jesus spoke of his Father as “my God” and as “the only true God.”—John 20:17; 17:3.

As for the “Holy Spirit,” the so-called third Person of the Trinity, we have already seen that this is not a person but God’s active force. John the Baptizer said that Jesus would baptize with holy spirit, even as John had been baptizing with water. Hence, in the same way that water is not a person, holy spirit is not a person. (Matthew 3:11) What John foretold was fulfilled when, following the death and resurrection of Jesus, holy spirit was poured out on his followers gathered in Jerusalem. The Bible says: “They all became filled with holy spirit.” (Acts 2:4) Were they “filled” with a person? No, but they were filled with God’s active force. Thus, the facts make clear that the Trinity is not a Bible teaching. Actually, long before Jesus walked the earth gods were worshiped in groups of three, or trinities, in places such as ancient Egypt and Babylon.

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 May 03, 2007 9:55 PM

Beauty, It's a good thing we all have the right to think and believe in what ever we want, dont you think? ... I respect your personal point of view in regards to Jesus although there's some info i'd like to share with you

Jesus is God.... Let’s take a brief look at a few of the many passages that clearly and consistently answer that question, straight from the pages of Scripture. We’ll begin by going back an additional 700 years before the life of Christ, to the Old Testament book of Isaiah.

Prophecies
Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament
Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”

This Messiah would be born a human son, but have a higher nature
Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

A couple hundred years later, but still more than half a millennium before Jesus walked the earth, more was predicted about the Messiah’s divine nature
Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him

  • The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
    Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”

    Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.

  • Jesus accepted worship from His disciples
    Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”

    In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh.

  • Jesus’ claim about Himself
    John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

    This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in
    Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

     Another of Jesus’ claims of deity
    John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”

    It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God!

  • Blessings, Blanca

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     May 04, 2007 5:23 AM

    Beauty, I have often wondered the same thing. I have also asked why would Jesus pray to himself if He was God.

    All I got was angry answers!I try to find the answers to this in the Bible as well and there is so much that contradicts itself. When I look elsewhere about the trinity in Bible studies of course I got the info I posted on the trinity.

    But in my heart of hearts I just don't see that they are one, because in in Revelation it talks about the one on the Throne who give power to the lamb and continually in Revelation there is the two seperate beings.

    In away I believe no one knows the whole truth but God Himself. The Bible I also have to remember was still writen by man and translated many times from origanl text. When translating from one language to another alot of times there really isn't a word in the other language to describe the original word so the closes thing is used.

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     May 05, 2007 9:11 AM

    Incarnations are the only thing that make any sense. There have been many material incarnations of God to raise the consciousness of mankind.

    Love & Peace

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     May 05, 2007 10:54 AM

    I believe God is a Trinity.  But like Karla said, the only one that knows for sure is God himself.  I do not debate, I'm just stating my opinion.

    Thanks for posting this Beauty.  Have a blessed day everyone.

    Love always,

    Cheri

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     May 05, 2007 1:01 PM

    Beauty D.   You have a very good understanding, and you put forward much the same clear, concise point of view that I have always done.

    Jesus was NOT God.

    Please allow me to illustrate something further here, which can only add to what Beauty D. has already said :

    In the Gospel we read that Jesus was tempted by satan, right ?

    There were 3 temptations.

    One of the temptations put to Jesus (by satan) was that IF JESUS WOULD BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP HIM INSTEAD OF GOD, then satan would give Him all the kingdoms of the world.

    Let us break that down into two parts here......

    First, and very important :  satan KNEW who Jesus was.   satan also knew who GOD was.      satan was trying to take Jesus`s allegience to His Father away, so that Jesus would pay allegience to him (satan) instead.

    Secondly,   satan promised Jesus ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD.   Question :  WHO CREATED all the kingdoms of the world ?      Answer :  GOD DID.    Therefore does the Creator not own that which HE Created? 

    IF Jesus had been God, then it would have been pointless tempting Jesus  -  because `as God` He would already have been the owner of everything.

    The temptation of Jesus  (by satan)  shadowed what happened in the Garden of Eden when satan tempted the first man Adam.     ADAM FAILED.   Jesus did NOT.

    Therefore, yes we could say Jesus, as the perfect, unblemished Son of God was Divine, BUT  HE  WAS  NOT  GOD.

    Paddy.

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     May 05, 2007 1:15 PM

    So where does the idea of TRINITY stem from ?

    In a word :  PAGANISM !!!   (pagan gods were, more often than not, 3-in-1 deities)

    The same as `christmas 25th December` does.

    The same as `good Friday` and `easter Sunday` does.

    There is NO trace of the words:  christmas, good friday or easter sunday anywhere to be found in the Bible.

    When early Christianity started there were other religions including Mitherism.   It would seem that Emperor Constantine couldnt make his mind up who Jesus was.

    By combining Christianity WITH PAGANISM everyone was happy.

    Check out :  Winter Soltrice - its customs - lights, feasting, gift giving, debauchary  -   you might just recognise OUR (so called) Christian customs amongst those.

    Here`s a video which explains how  `goddess ishtar` became EASTER -  eggs - rabbits (which you see around easter)  all symbolised NEW LIFE.  Christianity ADOPTED IT.......  Jesus`s death - new life.

    Easter means "Ishtar": Orthodox Teaching on Christ's Resurrection vs paganism  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3623673748497395333&q=easter+duration%3Along&hl=en

    Peace

    Paddy  

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     May 05, 2007 1:30 PM

    We do meet up with those who feel this understanding is NOT important. 

    Yet they forget these words :

    2Co 6:14 - Show Context Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    Therefore should we not ask :   What fellowship & communion hath PAGANISM got with Christianity ?

    Final text :  

    Joh 20:17 - Show Context Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    .

    Paddy

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     May 05, 2007 2:34 PM

    Blanca :      The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
    Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”

    Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.

    .

    The kings (the magi) would have known JEWISH Scripture :

    The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi  Yeshayahu- Isaiah   Yeshayahu - Chapter 9   5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

    This is what the magi would have been searching for when they went to find Jesus.   Quite plainly & what it is saying is that GOD, who is mighty and  the wondrous advisor would call the newborn child `the prince of peace`

    NOW LET US LOOK  AT THE KING JAMES VERSION :

    Isa 9:6 - Show Context For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    .

    Wow, according to King James :  this baby (`the prince of peace`)   has now been ELEVATED.    He is now being called THE MIGHTY GOD  -  THE EVERLASTING FATHER.

    .

    Constantine 

    Rome 

    Blind leaders  

    False teachers  

       HOW OFTEN did Jesus CRITISE the `religious leaders` of His day?  - telling them `WOE TO YOU` and called them `blind guides` - even telling them that THEY made others a bigger child of satan than they were !!

    Paddy

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     May 05, 2007 6:39 PM

    Paddy, please dont mind me asking, its just that I am eager to learn and understand better ... Ok, so this is what you've posted

    The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi  Yeshayahu- Isaiah   Yeshayahu - Chapter 9   5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

    Isa 9:6 - Show Context For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    So my question is: if according to King James this baby, "prince of peace" has been elevated and he is now called THE MIGHTY GOD  -  THE EVERLASTING FATHER., then this does not mean Jesus is really God?... What does this tell you?

    Blessings, Blanca

    .

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     May 05, 2007 8:56 PM

    Hi Blanca,

    Not when `man` has changed the words from the original, then it hardly changes Jesus`s status.     

    Just an example, if you were to ADD the word `Sir` before my name, and ADD a couple of distinguished letters after it - would that alter my status in life ? 

    The Jewish text makes sense, the KJV and others do not fit in with the majority of the Christian Gospels.

    satan, himself, knew who Jesus was.  If he could recognise Him why cant we?

    IF Jesus was God, then HOW do you possibly explain the voice from heaven that was heard when Jesus was baptised saying :  THIS IS MY SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED ?      Who spoke ?   Why would God say `MY Son` ?    (the words `my` and `I` are the clues)

    Reference the Garden of Gethsemene :   Jesus prayed that the hour might pass from Him, but saying :  `THY will`  (i.e. HIS FATHERS will be done, not His own)

    Jesus`s disciples had asked Him how they should pray.   He didnt teach them to pray to Himself - He taught them to pray :  `OUR FATHER who art in heaven, hallowed be THY Name`    Why didnt He just say:  `pray to me`  ????    `THY Kingdom come, THY will be done`  Its plainly repeated throughout the prayer that Jesus taught.

    Go back to Genesis :   `Let us make man in OUR image`   I can only read that as meaning that Jesus was there at the time of Creation.  It does also fit in with the further text where Jesus said:  `Before Abraham I AM`

    One thing that appears to confuse many people is when Jesus said :  `the Father and I are one`    Perhaps we need to examine that more carefully though.    Jesus carried out His Father`s will right down to the letter.  He was perfect, unblemished.  His work & ministry was what God Himself had commanded it to be.  Is that not somewhat like saying that they were BOTH of the same mind, with the same intention, perfect and Divine ?

    One comparison we might make is when any of us say that we are like one of our parents.   We think alike, act alike, share the same goals, but that doesnt mean that WE are our parent, does it?

    I`m probably going to throw the spanner into the works when I say this, but its my own personal belief that there is far more than what we have ever been taught.   Several Books were omitted from the majority of Bibles, but which were included in the R.C. Bible.  Something, somewhere just doesnt seem to make sense.   However we can only believe that which has been made available to us, and hope that whatever others `might` have done wont bring God`s condemnation upon us for it.   Jesus said `Seek and ye shall find` and it also tells us that Jesus said `there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed`  We need to keep searching. 

    Back to the Old Testament :

    Deuteronomy 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD  (King James)

    Devarim - Deuteronomy 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.  (Judaica Press Complete Tanach)

    GOD is ONE - not 3

    Jesus the SON

    Holy Ghost - the helper that Jesus promised He would send.

    One final thought, the Gospel tells us that when Jesus ascended into heaven it was to sit at God`s right hand.      It wouldnt be possible to sit at God`s right hand IF Jesus was God.

    Blessings to you.  I`m sure you will see it more clearly if you re-read from the four Gospels, watching specifically for what Jesus said.   Constantine & Rome have alot to answer for, but then...  let God judge them - sufficient are our own sins.

    Paddy

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     May 05, 2007 9:04 PM

    Just a note :  if you access : Judaica Press Complete Tanach you will see that the Books of Ruth, Esther and Ezra are included here, as they are in the R.C. Bibles - but not the others.    Says alot.

    What we mustn`t forget either is that the Prodestant faith was founded by Henry VIII who wanting a divorce, and finding that Rome forbid divorce, he decided to set up his own religion - prodestism  or Church of England as we call it.     Not exactly a sound basis for setting up a Faith just because a person wants a divorce, is it?

    I despair sometimes, asking myself: what have they done?

    Paddy.

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     May 06, 2007 4:02 AM

    Another point I did forget to put forward last night, comes from this particular Scriptural text :

    "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus) will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." (Luke 12:10)

    Clearly it is saying that it is possible to blashpheme Jesus  (NOT that we would want to)  but nevertheless, we cannot deny that IF Jesus - God and the Holy Ghost were all `one and the same` then it would NOT be possible to make any distinction between the three.   Therefore they have got to be 3 seperate - not all one.

    Jesus was also asked by His disciples as to when they might expect Him to return.   He told them that no man knows, ONLY THE FATHER.   Again, if Jesus had been God, then HE would have known, and would have told them so.

    These points were raised in an article I found not so long ago in `Yahoo Answers`      The article in itself was good, but I suspect from a final comment that was made that it might have been written by someone from the islamic faith.    Therefore I`ve refrained from copying & pasting it, but I do feel it is worth reading the rest of the comments and here`s the link :  Yahoo Answers

    The author maybe raised a good point when he/she said that Paul introduced fundamental PAGAN ideas into Christianity.  We can see the PAGAN customs at every twist and turn.  Yet the vatican, which is supposed to be `the church` which Paul initially formed, REMAINS SILENT.   Would Jesus say: woe to them today?   It`s my belief that He would.  They dare not speak out, because if they did, the Christian faith would totally collapse.  Scripture tells of the apostate church, and how the apostophy must come first.

    We know that God knew just how bad the world would become because we can read these things in texts like Matt 24 and 2 Timothy3 (and others)   but Jesus knew also.   As they were leading Him away to be crucified, we are told that He said:  if they do these things in a green tree what will they do in a dry?

    My own particular understanding of that text is :  that the `green tree` (a ripe season)  symbolized that particular moment & period of time when HE was amongst them - yet look what they were doing.   The `dry tree` (out of season) would be the period of time AFTER He left them - and Jesus was asking :  `what will they do then?` (worse things etc)

    We cannot deny that the people generally HAS become even more evil and corrupt, and anyone reading Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy3  surely cannot help but see EVERYTHING THAT WAS FORETOLD IS HAPPENING RIGHT HERE AND NOW.    Perilous & critical times do appear to be at our door.

    Paddy

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     May 06, 2007 4:30 AM

    At one point, I did post on AOL`s Christian forums, where I found that many `born again Christians` would argue that God would not allow for any of the Biblical texts to have been altered.

    It is my personal belief that they are mistaken, and below is the reason I believe otherwise.

    We read in the final book of the Bible, Revelation, a WARNING that MAN should NOT `add` nor `take away` from this Book.

    Granted, it does specifically say `THIS BOOK` (meaning Revelation) but none of us knows for certain HOW that was originally translated from the original texts.     I find it difficult to believe that God would protect all the rest of the texts in the Bible, yet leave the Book of Revelation UN-protected.   Therefore, it is my personal belief that God may well have left it all to see what mankind would do, and that the WARNING applies to THE BOOK - THE BIBLE - in its entirity.

    That is not to say that the Bible hasn`t received God`s protection, whilst we know it must have, seeing as how so many have sought to destroy it, yet it still remains the best selling book of all time.

    Those who seek to change it, or who have changed it, can only be doing the will of THEIR master....  satan -  who right from the beginning has strived to make it look as though God is a liar  (when, in fact, it is satan who is `the father of the lie`)     To what extent satan has succeeded....  now that is a question that frightens me.

    Paddy

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     May 06, 2007 5:55 AM

    Paddy, you are correct there is alot of pagan belief mixed with Christianity. I have been studying holidays, history, and other religions as well. I do not celebrate any of the holidays the way others do. I only celebrate in a way to give glory to God and my Savior. Some people think I am weird for doing it, but why would I want to partake in something that started pagan. Just because we don't worship their gods is still isn't right.  [ send green star]
     
     May 06, 2007 6:31 AM

    Paddy, I see the more I read you post that you have been seeking the answers to many question I myself have been. For the Lord told us seek and you shall find ask and it will be given.

    I have been seeking the truth and asking him to reveal it to me. That is the purpose of this group. I am a follower of Christ, I was saved by His grace and know there is but one God, but I also know that the Roman Empire and Constantine had a big hand in forming what is Christianity today. I also know the Roman churches were told many times by Jesus there teaching was wrong and that Constantine was a pagan and incorporated many of their practices into Christianity to appease all. (This was and is wrong for it is not the true following).

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     May 06, 2007 6:34 AM

    Hi Karla,

    What you say is good logic.

    Unfortunately it does become a bone of contention for others.

    They will insist that it is fine to commemorate Jesus`s Birth on the 25th December, and they will often comment :  `we dont act in a drunken way, or an immoral way as the Romans/pagans did`   But what they perhaps forget is :  Jesus never told us to commemorate His Birth - ONLY HIS DEATH.     Had He considered a birthday important, would He not have told us so.

    Regards His Death, He said :  `DO THIS in rememberance of Me`  - but He didnt say do it every SUN-day !!   Emphasis there on SUN-day because it was the Romans who named the days, and SUN-day was in honour of SUN WORSHIP.

    So what did Jesus mean when He said: `do this in rememberance of me` ?    Was it not the Passover ?

    This is but one area where I do hold some doubts that certain texts in the Bible has been altered.    Why would Jesus say: `do this in rememberence of me` (passover)  yet from other texts in the Bible many infer that the Passover and  particular day of the Sabbath is NOT important anymore.    That would appear somewhat conflicting of itself.

    SUN-day was pagan - SUN WORSHIP.

    The WINTER SOLTRICE begins on 21st December - and so it includes the 25th December date.    Winter Soltrice is a PAGAN custom related to the SUN.

    EASTER is one custom which they adopted and which makes a total mockery of Jesus`s birth and resurrection.    However can we commemorate  `a floating date` which might be in March one year and April the next ?    Passover doesnt necessarily fall on a Friday or a SUN-day, but goes by the Jewish calender (and sorry, no I`m not able to explain that calender lol!)     The customs associated with `ishtar` celebrated NEW LIFE, and we can see how Christians have adopted THAT custom.   They buy their children EASTER EGGS, and chocolate bunnies -  EGGS and RABBITS are a symbol of FERTILITY and NEW LIFE.

    St. valentines day is NOT Christian.

    Most certainly halloween is NOT !!

    There was a time in the early centuries where christmas was banned, but it was re-instated later.

    So when people argue that they are only using these customs to remember Jesus in a good way, they are still adopting the dates of the PAGANS.   They are MIXING righteousness with UNrighteousness and LIGHT with DARKNESS.  

    2Co 6:14 - Show Context Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    It is not ususual to see (so called) Christian churches `deck the halls` just as the Romans did.

    Family gatherings at any time of year are nice, but christmas gatherings brings out the glutton in people, even when they cannot afford it. 

    HOW CAN a Christian truly be avoiding the paganism when the first thing they do on christmas morning is watch their children unwrap gifts, which incidentally, they`ve also spun a big LIE around by having children believe that there is a man called santa !!

    Gift wrapping over, many then go to church.

    They then go home, or to family and friends where they FEAST & DRINK just as the Romans did !! 

    Either we can choose to live `just as the Romans did` OR, we can live the way Jesus did.  WE CANNOT DO BOTH.

     

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     May 06, 2007 6:43 AM

    Paddy, there is a thread called the History of holidays that I went into depth explaning the pagan intriduction into a false Christian celebration.

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     May 06, 2007 6:55 AM

    Hi

    Thanks Karla.

    I am sorry, I obviously shouldnt have included it on this thread.  I guess the subject of trinity just seems to run on into everything else when trying to explain.

    I will go and take a read at the thread you`ve started, and thanks.

    Paddy.

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    Hi Paddy, May 06, 2007 12:21 PM

    You are so right about all this. The apostles never celebrated these days either. If God would have wanted us to celebrate Christ's birthday, he would have given us an exact date. The bible does hint about when He may have been born. Like sometime in the fall, not winter.

    Anyway, people assume the pagan holidays are in the bible, but they don't look into it themselves.

    By the way, it's nice to meet you.

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     May 06, 2007 2:38 PM

    Thank you Paddy for explaining this, i did have an idea about all this before though...

    Gee, the more i read and seek for truth the more i despair and get confused... Jesus said: seek and you shall find, ask and it will be givenhowever my question is: But How?...,  when there are so many misunderstandings and contradictions, when we know man has changed the words from the original and several books were omitted from the majority of Bibles and also know the Roman Empire and Constantine are a lot to blame as to what Christianity is today.,  Isn't this just hopeless for catholics like me who are awakening from confusion of what we've been taught?...As far as i know the majority of the "so called" Catholics do not think this way because they are not aware of all this, they just follow religion blindly and get carried away by what they've been taught with....I do sometimes feel kinda guilty for thinking the way i do, for trying to seek more and more and not just getting carried away with what i've been told and what i've learned in catholic religion, I guess thats one of the bad things Catholicism has done to the their followers, to instill fear of God

    As to Christians/Catholics adopting pagan customs such as buying easter eggs and celebrating XMAS, i guess its all part of the lack of knowledge of what our religion is really based on. In my country we dont celebrate easter the way the Americans do though, easter eggs and chocolate bunnies have nothing to do with Jesus, for us Easter is nothing but The Resurrection of Jesus

    Blessings, Blanca

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     May 06, 2007 2:52 PM

    One more thing i'd like to say in my own personal belief is that when Jesus heard the voice from heaven when he was baptised saying :  THIS IS MY SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED..., I think God said my son because if its really true that Jesus and God are one the same then Jesus was sent to this world as God's son , as a human being not as God himself... does it make any sense?    [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 3:34 PM

    Hi Blanca,

    As you rightly said:  it is the lack of knowledge, and yes, I do feel very sorry for the people.    They attend churches  (not just catholics, but all of the others also)  and in their hearts they do believe that what they have been told is correct.   They would be angry & upset if they knew.

    Doesnt it remind you though of what Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharasees of His day ?

    Mt 23:15 - Show Context Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    I think we would all agree those are quite strong words, and I`m sure left them in no doubt exactly where they stood.

    The clergy nowadays is very hypocritical, and although individual popes are not wealthy, the vatican organisation is.   What happened to feeding the poor?  Clothing the naked?  and tending the sheep?  I guess they must have somehow lost their way lol.

    God sees what is in the heart.   If our intentions are to seek answers then as Jesus said: we shall find.    Anything we cant find is not our fault.   What would be our fault though is if we dont share the knowledge we do have with others, so that they too might have a chance of finding out the Truth.     The hour is short, and as the Bible states :  `the workers are few`  Matthew 9:37     Some will listen to us, some wont, but we can but try our best.    You remember the parable about the shepherd that went out to find the one lost sheep?

    If we can but tell just one or two, they too will tell their family & friends, who in turn will tell others.

    Taek care & stay safe.

      Paddy     

     

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    Yes May 06, 2007 3:41 PM

    The answer to the question "Is God Jesus or a Trinity?" is YES.   [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
    Yes, May 06, 2007 3:47 PM

    That makes perfect sense, Blanca. Jesus came down as God's son.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 3:56 PM

    Jesus and God are NOT one and the same.

    From my understanding, the trinity doctorine came into play at the Counsel of Nicea, hence where they got the Nicene Creed which states: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. 

    Jesus prayed TO HIS FATHER.   Why would He pray to Himself?

    He taught His disciples HOW and WHO to pray to.

    He prayed from the cross:  `FATHER FORGIVE THEM`  -  are we to really believe that He was asking Himself to forgive them?

    None of these things would make any sense if Jesus was God.

    The word `God`, in actual fact is a title.   According to the Jewish faith, I believe God`s name in their texts is Jehovah  -  but please note: I am not sure how they spell His Name.    I do know those Jews who do believe in Jesus call Him Yeshua Yet another injustice I guess, when someone decided to OMIT God`s Name from the Bibles.  

    Pessah (Passover)
    Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2007
    - written by jerry golden   http://www.thegoldenreport.com/asp/jerrysnewsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=1126&z=1

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     May 06, 2007 4:14 PM

    Blanca, I have been in your shoes and still are confused sometimes, but the more info I get and the more praying for answers the more it becomes clear to me. granted some things are still unclear, but I believe God will always show the truth to those who search for the truth.  [ send green star]
     
    BLESSINGS EVERYONE. May 06, 2007 4:25 PM

    No One Else Is More Awesome Then GOD is...  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 8:04 PM

    I would like to use Matthew 19:5 for an example here if I may.

    "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?"

    We, as adults, seem to accept this concept without too much difficulty, that in marriage two become one.  Then why is it so hard to accept that One becomes Three?  Nothing is impossible with God.  There are three divine Persons in ONE GODHEAD, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 

                       trinity 

    Just as these three leaves make one shamrock, we, ourselves, are also a trinity and composed of Body, Soul, and Spirit. Man was made in the Image of God and God is a Trinity.  Upon our death, the body goes into the grave, the soul goes to its destination (either heaven or hell), and the Spirit goes back to God from whence it came.  A dead body no longer has any use for an indwelling Holy Spirit.  If we can separate into 3 beings upon death, why can't God also separate in the same manner and send his Son, which is 1/3 part of the Godhead, to earth, and then send the Holy Spirit, which is the other 1/3 part of the Godhead to comfort us in the absence of the Son?  We are making this something very difficult when it really isn't. It is within our understanding and acceptable as it conforms to the harmony of the rest of God's holy Word. Therefore, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are One." 

     [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
    Thanks Jeanette! May 06, 2007 8:06 PM

    Very well put Jeanette. I agree 100%.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 8:11 PM

    If you still need scriptural support, I offer you these!

    John 1:1, 2    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God."

    John 1:14  "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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     May 06, 2007 8:12 PM

    Thank you, Frank!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 8:24 PM

    You cannot currently send a star to Jeanette because you have done so within the last week.



    This post was modified from its original form on 06 May, 20:25  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 06, 2007 8:27 PM

    bashful   awwww shucks, thanks for the thought.  {{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}

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     May 06, 2007 9:50 PM

    Hello everyone, at this moment of my life i find myself a bit confused as to Jesus and God being one same person, there are many things that make me believe Jesus and God really are one and the same although there are some other things that make me doubt. i guess every each one of us understands and gives a different meaning to the holy scriptures, no wonder why there's so much debate on this subject

    Paddy, I believe one of the reasons why many people are not attending church anymore is exactly because of what you said : The Clergy is nowadays very hypocrital, i totally agree with you although we cant generalize, there are very good priests and bad ones too

    Jeannete, i just loved what you said and how you said it, so right, why is it hard for us to accept that One becomes Three, nothing is impossible for God

    Whether some of us believe Jesus is God or not, what really matters to me is that God sees what is in our hearts and knows who we are, he knows the right and bad things we do, he knows what our sins are and knows what our nature is... I just think this is all about trying to be as good people as we can,  being better human beings with each passing day and to love and be compassionateto to others

    Blessings to you all, Blanca

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     May 07, 2007 3:59 AM

    Good Morning

    I do realise that the text Jeanette quoted is the one which almost all of the `trinitarians` use.    I have no desire to pursue that particular line of argument because on past experience once people have made their mind up that Constanine was right, then I find they close their mind to the possibility of how easy it might have been to have changed that one text during translation, either deliberately or just because it wasnt easy to translate.    They also close their mind totally to the fact that almost all pagan gods were TRINITY i.e. each of them being THREE IN ONE.  A little research online might also tell you there have also been previous (alleged) `virgin births` and `crucifixtions` and `resurrections`    The main religion when Christianity began was `mitherism` (perhaps a little research on that would not go amiss)

    Paddy

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     May 07, 2007 4:10 AM

    Just when we thought it couldnt possibly get anymore complicated - it just did!

    Last night, and after a post was made in another group about the U.S. Hate Bill,  the topic of conversation turned to religions, faith & people`s various beliefs.

    I must admit it is not very often that I find myself totally unable to answer a basic question, but someone raised a question in that group last night which totally stumped me, and which I couldnt even answer.   The person in question is obviously NON-Christian (please see 1 of 2 posts below)  and just to add to it, a guy who I believe is Jewish also added a Biblical text which I confess I do NOT understand (please refer to 2nd post below)

    I would like to be able to answer this question, whilst it is my belief that if a non-believer poses a question then at very least, as Christians, we DO need to offer them an answer, and if we cant then we need to find an answer (and right now I cant)   Therefore I really would appreciate any thoughts on this :-


    Jeanete J.
    Jeanete has received 21 new, 404 total stars from Care2 membersJeanete has been awarded 571 butterflies for taking action at Care2
     Sunday, 8:18 PM

    I have questions.  Isn't sacrifice considered a pagan ritual? I wonder why Jesus and god would be partaking in such a ritual? If God says that heathens (pagans) must stop what they are doing, why would he partake in their most coveted ritual? This makes no sense to me. Is it a simple case of do as I say, not as I do? Hypocricy at its deepest, finest roots? If we were made in Gods image, is that why all of us are hypocrites, because god was? I am not making light of this topic, these are questions I really would like an answer to.
     
     
    Shadow Bear -.
    Shadow Bear has received 97 new, 3890 total stars from Care2 membersShadow Bear has been awarded 122 butterflies for taking action at Care2
     Sunday, 8:43 PM

    The absurd notion that  G-d wants or ever wanted sacrifice, much less HUMAN sacrifice is addressed by Micah 6:6-8  

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     May 07, 2007 6:17 AM

    How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?  (Matt 16:11)

     

    .

    Hi

    I find the information contained in this thread fascinating, and I must commend Paddy & Beauty for their insight into what has long since been a very controversial topic amongst christians. 

    I share your belief that Jesus was not God, & the reason I have posted the text (above) is to remind you of what Jesus said : "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees"

    Nowadays, of course, we must ask ourselves: how does this warning relate to us?   Who are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees?   I dont know about you, but I only have to look around at all the apostate churches, & their hypocritical leaders to find my answer.

    Christianity started long after Judaism.   It would have been the Judaic texts that Jesus would have read from.   It would also have been the Judaic texts that King Herod & the wise men read, whereby it stated that a child would be born and that God would call his name `the prince of peace`   Therefore why should that text be wrong?    It is very clear from reading the KJV version of that text that it has been altered to read that his name would be called `mighty God`   That is simple enough for even a child to understand.

    Jesus was questioned many times as to who he was.  The Jews were awaiting the Messiah, and the Scribes were concerned when Jesus referred to his kingdom, and spoke of his Father in heaven.

    I would agree that pagan gods were all three-in-one deities.  Trinity is a pagan concept.   God is one, and stated so in the Old Testament.

    We were forewarned to beware of false teachers, and never has there been a better description than that to fit Rome, its popery, and many others we see nowadays.

    For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Matt 13:22)

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,  (2Peter 2:1)

    Billions of people have been deceived.

    Paddy chose an excellent text when he quoted Matt 23:15 because that is exactly what the apostate church leaders are doing even now today.  In Matthew 23 Jesus used the words "Woe to you"  no less than eight times to the Scribes and Pharisees, in addition to calling them "a generation of vipers" - "blind guides" - and "fools"  and he told them that those they were converting they were making twice "a child of hell" than what they themselves were.   In v13 Jesus tells them:  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    They have certainly shut up the kingdom of heaven, quite simply because billions of people have ignored those things which Jesus warned against: "the leaven of the Pharisees" and "the false teachers" and they`ve made even the elect into "children of hell"

    I don`t wish to change this thread into a study of Revelation, because I can see you already have a study thread about Revelation.  I will just say, however, that I would not in the least be surprised if "Mystery Babylon, the great whore" is not Rome and the apostate religion.  We were forewarned: "come out of her my people"  (Rev 18:4)  Would God have told us to come out of whatever this is if it were not possible to do so?    That verse speaks of "her sins" and "her plagues", when will people heed the warning?

    peace and blessings

    Robert E.

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     May 07, 2007 6:56 AM

    I would like to use Matthew 19:5 for an example here if I may.

    "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?"

    We, as adults, seem to accept this concept without too much difficulty, that in marriage two become one.  Then why is it so hard to accept that One becomes Three? 

    .

    Jeanette, metaphorically speaking that is quite correct.  However in the physical sense it is most incorrect.

    For example:  when a husband says: "my wife says... blah, blah, blah"  then he is repeating the exact words that his wife has said.  He, himself, is not his own wife.

    Further example: if that man does an unkind deed, and feels that he needs to ask for his wife`s forgiveness, he might say: "I am sorry dear, please would you forgive me"    Clearly he is asking that his wife forgives him.  He is not asking that he forgives himself  (much as he might have preferred to )

    In exactly the same way: Jesus spoke and taught his Father`s teachings.   From the cross, Jesus prayed to his Father, asking him to forgive those who didnt know what they were doing.

    Did Jesus not also cry out: "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"   (had Jesus forsaken himself?)

    Furthermore, did Jesus not also say: "Father into your hands I commend my spirit"?   (did Jesus commend his own spirit into his own hands?)

    Didnt Jesus pray in the garden that the hour might be lifted/removed from him?   (if so, then if he was God, he might just as well have walked away from it) Full text for this below.

    And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matt 26:39) 

    The entire trinity doctorine is just so unbelievably ridiculous to be true.

    Please open eyes and ears Mt 13:15

    PEACE

    Robert E.

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     May 07, 2007 8:05 AM

    Here's one link that might help:
    http://www.crivoice.org/sacrifice.html
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     May 07, 2007 9:41 AM

    I would like to respond to this with an open mind and heart.

    I do realise that the text Jeanette quoted is the one which almost all of the `trinitarians` use.    I have no desire to pursue that particular line of argument because on past experience once people have made their mind up that Constanine was right, then I find they close their mind to the possibility of how easy it might have been to have changed that one text during translation, either deliberately or just because it wasnt easy to translate.    They also close their mind totally to the fact that almost all pagan gods were TRINITY i.e. each of them being THREE IN ONE.

    Genesis 1, 2    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

    Elohim (sometimes El or Elah), English form "God," the first of the three primary names of Deity, is a uni-plural noun formed from El = Strength, or the strong one, and Alah, to swear, to bind oneself by an oath, so implying faithfulness. This uni-plurality implied in the name is directly asserted in Genesis 1:26 (plurality), 27 (unity): Thus the Trinity is latent in Elohim. As meaning primarily the Strong One it is fitly used in the first chapter of Genesis. It is used in the O.T. about 2500 times.

    Also, in Gen. 2:1 we already have two of the three parts of the Godhead being spoken of.  "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."  We have already, in two verses, been introduced to God and the Holy Spirit.

    In verse 26 we see: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

    I do believe with all my heart that this was before the days of Constantine, and for that matter, before any pagan practices and religions were ever formed. Could it be possible that these pagan practices copied after the truth, twisted the truth into their own warped religion and that the one true Trinity  refers to our most High God?????  

    In Gen. 2:4 it says  "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

    Lord (Hebrew. Jehovah). It is significant that the first appearance of the name Jehovah in Scripture follows the creation of man. It was God (Elohim) who said, Let us make man in our image" (Gen. 1:26); but when man, as in the second chapter of Genesis, is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Jehovah Elohim) who acts. This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all Scripture enphasizes this.

    Jehovah is distinctly the redemption name of Deity. When sin entered and redemption became necessary, it was Jehovah Elohim who sought the sinning ones (Gen. 3:9-13) and clothed them with the "coats of skins" (Gen. 3:21), a beautiful type of a righteousness provided by the Lord God through sacrifice (Rom. 3:21, 22). The first distinct revelation of Himself by His name Jehovah was in connection with the redemption of the covenant people out of Egypt (Ex. 3:13-17).

    For the serious student of the Scriptures, I can only urge you to read for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten you and teach you those things of God, and not to rely on the reasoning or logic of man.

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     May 07, 2007 9:43 AM

    Paddy...you totally ROCK!   How's bout a kiss from a Heinz 57 with a wee bit o Scottish bloodline?

    Love & Peace

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    ROBERT SAYS: May 07, 2007 9:56 AM

    Jeanette, metaphorically speaking that is quite correct.  However in the physical sense it is most incorrect.

    For example:  when a husband says: "my wife says... blah, blah, blah"  then he is repeating the exact words that his wife has said.  He, himself, is not his own wife.

    It doesn't take a genious to figure this out.  When the two become one, it is as one unit; one couple; one family. The wife is in subjection to the husband and the husband shall rule over her. They are "united" into one cause.  In the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are united into one Godhead. They are 3 in 1 just as a married couple are 2 in one. It doesn't take much to twist things around, any lawyer knows how to do that, and you can mock all you like, but those that are serious students of the Scriptures will not have the difficulty in understanding. The truth is there for those that WANT to see it.

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     May 07, 2007 10:01 AM

    Good morning everyone,

    Paddy, if you are unable to answer that question raised in that other group then I am speechless, I am definitely flabbergasted it sure is kinda shameful when other religions attack us and we just dont seem to have a reply

    Robert, I have always thought there are definitely very bad things Catholic church has done such as the abominable INQUISITION, using religion for political purposes and yes, sadly but true, the hypocrisy of their leaders, these are just a few reasons why other religions attack Catholicism and i dont condemn them, it is understandable, however, i refuse to believe what you say: mystery Babylon, the great whore is not Rome but the apostate religion., As far as i know Jehovah's Witnesses religion has accused Christianity of being the Great Babylon but thats only their way of understanding what they actually want to understand

    Blanca

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     May 07, 2007 10:06 AM

    Jeanette,  a great explanation of the trinity. I believe that we are all fragments of God, therefore like DNA in each cell of our bodies...God resides within our hearts as the wholly Spirit giving life to the material body. When we go within...we commune with the Spirit God who willingly guides our lives. 

    We are NOT of this world and our focus should NOT be on it, nor get bogged down in translations of scriptures written by men inspired by God. Through faith alone, we can come to the understanding of what God wants for us, the Word of God is not necessarily to be obtained from a book...as there are different paths to the Truth. But, only by loving God with all of our heart and our neighbors as ourselves...we can learn to be true Children of God...and live up to our birthright.

    Love & Peace

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     May 07, 2007 10:46 AM

    I myself have for awhile believed that God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit were 3 seperate beings. Granted on my search I have come across both sides of the spectrum, no matter what is brought before me and all my prays it always comes back 3 seperate and the word seek and you shall find, ask and it will be given.  [ send green star]
     
     May 07, 2007 11:00 AM

    It doesn't take a genious to figure this out.  When the two become one, it is as one unit; one couple; one family. The wife is in subjection to the husband and the husband shall rule over her. They are "united" into one cause.  In the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are united into one Godhead.

    .

    Jeanette, please can we ascertain as to whether we are understanding each other here.

    Regards what you`ve stated above - are you OR are you not suggesting that God Himself came down to earth as Jesus?

    OR, are you merely saying they are 3 separate but jointly & together they all form part of what you term the Godhead?

    You see, in the example you gave regards a man and a women, and whilst I would agree that upon marriage they do become `one flesh` and `one unit` - they are still nevertheless two individual people in the phsical sense.    As we know, the husband might be upstairs, whilst his wife comes downstairs.   Now compare:  God was in heaven, and Jesus was sent down to earth as a baby, born of the virgin Mary.

    Robert E.

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     May 07, 2007 11:05 AM

    Karla:  If I have not made my belief clear, it is that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 divine persons in One Godhead, just as a husband and wife are one, so are they One. We also are a trinity of body, soul and spirit. Each one is different and each has a different function that makes up our being, yet we are but one being.  There are some things that we believe and accept on faith without ever coming to a complete understanding. The more we mature in the Spirit and God's Word, the more we are able to grasp its meaning.  I believe as I continue to grow, it will become even clearer and my understanding will expand until there are no more questions in my own mind about it.  We can explain it all day long but if the seekers are not ready to receive the meat of the Word, they still will not understand anymore than a toddler can eat a T-bone steak. They just aren't ready for it yet.

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     May 07, 2007 11:41 AM

    John 17 The Prayer of intercession.

    These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said,

    Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. All all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou Father, are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; they they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I  in them.

    As born again children of God, we are members of His body and yet, though we are all one body, we are all separate. The above prayer of Jesus is my favorite passage of the N.T. and confirms the questions being asked here in this thread.

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     May 07, 2007 11:51 AM

    We can explain it all day long but if the seekers are not ready to receive the meat of the Word, they still will not understand anymore than a toddler can eat a T-bone steak. They just aren't ready for it yet.

    .

    Jeanette, I really do not like your under-tones.  You are no more qualified than the rest of us.   The Scribes & Pharisees of Jesus` day equally considered themselves qualified only to find that Jesus called them `a child from hell`- `vipers & fools`    So please do not infer that some of us are no more than a child (thank you very much)

    Someone has already made a rather rude comment directed at Paddy, but that`s for him to deal with when he reads it.  

    Just two instances above, and I am quickly beginning to see as to why some Christians get a rather bad reputation. 

    I have said my piece, hopefully we can now continue IN PEACE.

    If anyone has any doubts as to what has been said on this thread then may I please direct you to God`s Word - JOHN 8:12-13   Jesus explains quite adequately who he is, and who his Father his, telling the Pharisees that they will die in their sins not knowing. Trinitarians try to hijack scriptures and take them out of context to prove Jesus is God. 

    Robert E. 


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     May 07, 2007 12:03 PM

    That reminds me:-

    .
    Mt 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' 24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it."

      Robert E.



    This post was modified from its original form on 07 May, 12:03  [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
     May 07, 2007 12:05 PM

     So please do not infer that some of us are no more than a child (thank you very much)

    Again, Robert, you misunderstand me. I was not inferring that some are no more than a child.  Some of us have been into the Word a lot longer than others. Just as a babe must first learn to crawl and then walk before it can run, we must also feed on the milk of the word before we can accept the meat of it.  We are all at different spiritual levels of growth and/or maturity.  I am 65 years old and have been a student of the word for most of my life. I was reared in it.  There are some here that are very much younger than myself who have more recently found Salvation through the blood of Christ and they have not achieved the same level of spiritual maturity that I have.  I also have not achieved the maturity as some others my own age because I have had a period of my life when I did not study and stay devoted to my study and research.  Therefore, I fell behind those that continued on in their devotion.  I am not ready for the heavy meat yet. I am still in the learning stages and if I live to be 300, I still would not be an authority or expert and know everything there is to know. The Holy Spirit teaches me new things each day as I yield myself to Him. I know that I will go to my grave still only knowing a fraction of what is between the covers of God's Holy Word.  I regret that you took offense to my words, they were directed to manind in general. Had I meant them for you, I would have addressed them to you directly. I hope we can continue on from here without any further misunderstandings.

     

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     May 07, 2007 12:35 PM

    Lu 2:49 - And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

    Joh 8:42 - Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn't come on My own, but He sent Me.

    Joh 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    John 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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     May 07, 2007 12:42 PM

    Luke 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

    Mark 14:62  But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?  63 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Lu 10:22 - All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or   who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    Joh 15:24  If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

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     May 07, 2007 12:48 PM

    John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    John 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I

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     May 07, 2007 12:55 PM

    God says that His ways are not our ways and His ways are not always for us to know and understand. Nevertheless, what we do as humans is to try to understand God in a human framework and put human limits on God.

    But what did God say to Sarah when she laughed? He asked her if there was anything impossible for the Lord her God? The answer is No.

    The God who created the universe with a Word and created life from His Breath is beyond the ability of any human to comprehend. The Trinity is Impossible for us to understand. All we can do is believe God.

    And that's part of the problem. Most Christians believe in God. Far fewer Christians actually Believe God. I suggest we Believe God on this one.

    It's otherwise known as taking it on Faith.



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     May 07, 2007 12:56 PM

    John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    Mr 15:39 - And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

    Matthew 16:13-20
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

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     May 07, 2007 12:58 PM

    The PAGAN Roman centurion understood perfectly well :

    Mr 15:39 -

    And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

     [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
     May 07, 2007 1:03 PM

    Even the DEVILS recognised who Jesus was :

    Lu 4:41

    And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

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     May 07, 2007 1:06 PM

    Ac 3:13 - The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

     

    Ro 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

     

    2Co 1:19 - For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

     

    Ga 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

     

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     May 07, 2007 1:12 PM

    Heb 10:29 - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    .

    1Jo 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1Jo 4:9 - In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into th  [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
    Jesus and the Father are One May 07, 2007 1:14 PM

    John 10:24-30

    24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

    25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

    Luke 22:67

    "If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will not believe;

    We have to believe. We need to take a "leap of faith". That seems to be a problem taking that leap. Hence all of the esoteric logic and discussion.

    John 8:58

    58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

    To those present, in that day, Jesus' words are clearly a claim that He is God.

    I could give more examples, but as Tug McGraw said "You Gotta Believe."





    This post was modified from its original form on 07 May, 13:17  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 07, 2007 1:19 PM

    Matthew 10:14-15

    14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    .

    No disrespect to the Hosts, but I do feel that any further time I might spend here will be wasted, and frought with frustration, but I wont emphasise further other than to say, it should be obvious.

    PEACE

    Robert E.

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     May 07, 2007 1:25 PM

    Robert, it must just be me, but I have no idea what your last post has even remotely to do with the topic.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
    Robert, May 07, 2007 2:17 PM

    That's an excellent explanation as to why the trinity doctrine is not true. I agree 100%.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 07, 2007 3:14 PM

    Hi Frank

    This is the text you quoted :

    John 8:58   Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM. 

    So, yes, we can agree that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING.   Hence why God said :  `Let us create man in `OUR` image`

    Jesus confirms He was there in this text :

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    not only confirming that HE was there but also that HIS FATHER was there with Him.

    God + Jesus  = 2 there in the beginning   

    Paddy

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    i read this in the funny times... May 07, 2007 3:19 PM

    O Lord………….

     

                Whoever and wherever You may or may not be, God of all ages, races, creeds, colors, astrological coordinates and gender specifications; One God, or perhaps Three, or Maybe A Whole Lot More; God of many names, You know who You are, we pray that You, or at least a two-thirds majority of You, look down upon us with favor, forgive us the sins we have committed against You and Your Creation, or, if it turns out that we created You, forgive us for that. Grant that we may grow in grace, walk in wisdom and abide in love, hewing ever closer to the examples set forth in the Scriptures of world culture, which may or may not have been inspired by You or Someone Like You. Deliver us from ourselves, that we may know complete satisfaction or return the unused portion, and increase our faith in the hereafter and whatever’s here after that, fulfilling the promise of redemption given to Your Chosen People and other People Chosen as Alternatives, that on the Day of Non-Judgementalism we may enter the gates of eternity and find, at last, the true mates for all our socks.

     

    Amen-and women, too.

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     May 07, 2007 4:59 PM

    Trinity Definition: Within the nature of the One True God, there simultaneously exists three eternal Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All three Persons are co-equals in all the attributes of the Divine Nature. This definition defines God, not as a family, but as a committee. But how did this doctrine come to exist in modern Christianity? In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, it reads: If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians … was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief. Most theologians know that the Trinity doctrine is not scriptural. Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. But nowhere do we find any Trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead. All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon have adopted in one form or another a Trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz. In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Within Israel paganism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah. In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. In the book, A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy … The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists. Historians also know that the Trinity doctrine is not authorized in the New Testament. There is no evidence the Apostles of Jesus ever heard of a Trinity. The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity itself, nor such language as one in three, three in one, one essence or substance or three persons, is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient Church, taken not from the Bible but from classical Greek philosophy. Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the Trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ. That there was no formal, established doctrine of the Trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. Certainly, it cannot be denied that not only the word "Trinity", but even the EXPLICIT IDEA of the Trinity is absent from the apostolic witness of the faith.. The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical Doctrine. Since the doctrine is unscriptural, it took an emperor to make Christianity start embracing the concept. It was at this stage that Constantine made his momentous suggestion. Might not the relationship of Son to Father be expressed by the term homoousios ("of the same substance"). Its use, however, by the Sabellian bishops of Libya had been condemned by Dionysius of Alexandria in the 260s, and, in a different sense, its use by Paul of Samosata had been condemned by the Council of Antioch in 268. It was thus a "loaded" word as well as being unscriptural. Why Constantine put it forward we do not know. The possibility is that once again he was prompted by Hosius, and he may have been using it as a "translation" of the traditional view held in the West, that the Trinity was composed of "Three Persons in one substance," without inquiring further into the meaning of these terms. The Emperor had spoken, and no one dared touch the creed during his lifetime. The great majority of the Eastern bishops found themselves in a false position. There is only one passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible used by Trinitarians to support their view. I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV Editors added the bracketed words in the early fourth century to the Latin Vulgate translation. They are not in the older Greek manuscripts. For this reason, modern translations omit them. Bible commentaries explain that these words were never in the apostle John's manuscript or any existing early copies of it. Now once again to Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God...." This originally was written by Moses as God inspired him. Moses wrote in Hebrew. The Hebrew word translated "God" is Elohim--a noun or name, plural in form, but normally singular in grammatical usage. It is the same sort of word as family, church, group--one family consisting of two or more members--one church composed of many members--one group of several persons. It is referring to precisely the same Persons, making up or composing the one God, as we found in John 1:1--the Word and God--and each of those TWO Persons is GOD. (cont.)...  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 07, 2007 5:00 PM

    IN OTHER WORDS, GOD IS NOW A FAMILY of Persons, composed so far of only the TWO--God the Father and Christ the Son. But IF the Holy Spirit of God dwells in someone, and he is being led by God's Spirit, then (Rom. 8:14) he is a begotten son of God. But, at the time of Christ's return to earth in supreme power and glory to set up the KINGDOM OF GOD, restoring the GOVERNMENT OF GOD abolished by Lucifer, then all being filled and led by God's Spirit shall become BORN sons of God. The GOD FAMILY will then RULE ALL NATIONS with the GOVERNMENT OF GOD RESTORED! The Trinity doctrine limits God to a supposed three Persons. It DESTROYS the very gospel of Jesus Christ! His gospel is the good news of the coming KINGDOM OF GOD--the only hope of this world and its mixed-up mankind! The Trinity doctrine, by contrast, is the doctrine of the great false religion called in Revelation 17:5: "Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." How does the Trinity Doctrine apply to mankind? God's PURPOSE in having created humanity – is to reproduce GOD. God is not merely one Person, nor even limited to a "Trinity," but God is FAMILY. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a family. This former Lucifer, who became Satan, has so cleverly DECEIVED all humanity that almost no one today knows that God is, actually, a Divine FAMILY. One Family, God IS a Family. That Family is one GOD. Satan has deceived people into almost every other belief. Perhaps the largest number have been deceived into believing God is a "Trinity." Finally, in briefest summary: God is a FAMILY composed at present of the TWO Persons of John 1:1-4, but with many thousands, already begotten by God's Spirit, in God's true Church, soon to be born into that divine family at Christ's return to earth. Jesus Christ, by his resurrection, was BORN a divine Son of God (Rom. 1:4)--the first so born into the God family (Rom. 8:29). Both God and Christ are composed of spirit, formed and shaped as a human person, but with eyes like flames of fire and faces bright as the sun full strength! God is Creator of all that exists. Both God and the Word (who became Christ) have existed eternally and before all else. From them emanates the Spirit of God, by which God is omnipresent and omniscient. God the Father is the divine Father of the God family, into which truly converted Christians shall be born.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 07, 2007 7:07 PM

    The Trinity doctrine, by contrast, is the doctrine of the great false religion called in Revelation 17:5: "Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth."

    A very educated article Dynamite.

    Just a reminder for one and all, we were forewarned to COME OUT OF HER (`mystery babylon` that is)  so that we share not of her sins and plagues.

    Paddy

     

     

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     May 07, 2007 9:23 PM

    Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the Trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ. That there was no formal, established doctrine of the Trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it.

    Certainly, it cannot be denied that not only the word "Trinity", but even the EXPLICIT IDEA of the Trinity is absent from the apostolic witness of the faith.. The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical Doctrine.

    Witness of the apostolic faith is recorded in the following Books of the Gospels and bear record of the manifestation of the trinity.

    Matthew 3:16, 17  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    Mark 1:9 - 11  "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luke 3:22, 22  "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in the bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    John 1:15-34 - The witness of John the Baptist baring witness of Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the voice of God from heaven, all present at the same time. Two were visual and one audible but all three were present in the same moment.

    These accounts were recorded by four of those that walked with Jesus, those who were divinely inspired to write the Gospel.  This accounting by each of these apostles is a manifestation of the event that we refer to as the Trinity, although that word is never mentioned in the Bible. If 1/3 of the 12 apostles were aware of this manifestation, don't you believe that the other 2/3's might have also had knowledge of it?  Paul even spoke of it in the Book of Acts.  Therefore, the apostles did receive revelation about it and it was not absent in their witness of the faith. 

     [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
     May 07, 2007 9:30 PM

    God + Jesus  = 2 there in the beginning   

    Genesis 1:1, 2  "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

    The Holy Spirit of God was also present "in the beginning."  Now we have

    God + Jesus + the Holy Spirit = 3 in the beginning - the time of the creation of the earth. 

     [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
     May 08, 2007 2:25 AM

    Hi

    I`m still not quite sure as to whether I am understanding fully the point you are trying to make Jeanette.

    IF you are saying there is GOD - and JESUS - and the HOLY SPIRIT - and that all of those three separately then make THREE -  then yes, Ive got to agree there are THREE.     I dont think anyone could read the Bible and not accept there are three.

    IF, on the other hand, you are saying that GOD came down to earth in the form of Jesus -  then I would have to disagree with you.

    I have come across several different explanations from people about the trinity, and one such explanation is where they call Jesus `the godman` which in itself is quite a ridiculous concept when we look at the many Scriptural texts in the New Testament, and also, in fact, the prophecies which Jesus fulfilled which were contained in the Old Testament.

    It doesnt exactly take a very intelligent mind to work out that when Jesus went back to heaven `to sit on the right hand of the Father`  -  then obviously it order to sit on God`s right hand, He Himself could not have actually been God.     (example:  if I were intending to sit on the right hand side of you at the table, then obviously you and I would have to be two separate people - just a simple example)

    Please clarify :

    Are you saying that Jesus WAS God ?

    or, are you saying :  there is Jesus AND God AND Holy Spirit ?

    Paddy

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     May 08, 2007 3:01 AM

    Having read from many, many sources about the trinity, the following is one of the best I have come across.   True it involves quite abit of reading, but then this subject is very important.

    Three Persons In One Being?

    The subject of God is mysterious, confusing to almost all. Millions, indeed billions, have asked who and what is God? The single most important subject in the universe is knowledge of the true God. What could be more important than which God one worships? This all-important question has confounded man for millennia.

    He still has not found the answer!

    With the explosion of new and different brands of Christianity, this confusion about God has only grown worse in the modern age. The so-called great religions of the world have only added to this confusion. Yet, correctly identifying the true God is the central issue and question towering over everything that is important in life. The answer to this question lies at the very core of all that is true religion. And, for those who believe that the God of Creation authored the Bible—Christians!—the question comes into sharper focus. Who and what is the God of the Bible?

    Millions of professing Christians believe in, speak of and weekly sing about God as a “trinity”—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Acceptance of this god has become perhaps the greatest litmus test of orthodox or traditional Christianity. But is the true God of the Bible a trinity—three persons in one being? Can this be proven? Or is God a Family—and can this be proven? If the “trinity god” is false—if it is not the god of the Bible—it must be rejected. In its place must come an understanding of the true God.

    Source of Deception, Confusion

    The apostle John described Satan the devil as having “deceived the whole world” (Rev. 12:9). His goal has been to keep man from having a relationship with his Creator. The apostle Paul described Satan as “the god of this world” who “has blinded them that believe not” (II Cor. 4:4). Is it strange to think of Satan as this world's GOD? Does this seem impossible to believe? Yet, there it is in your Bible. After all, as deceiver, what would the devil most want to deceive—blind—mankind to, other than the identity of the true God? In fact, you will learn that Satan is the author of the trinity doctrine—that this false god is a counterfeit—a substitute deity—designed to deceive millions into unwittingly worshipping him, while thinking they are serving the God of Christianity and the Bible.

    The highly educated of this world ought to know who God is! But they do not, because this is spiritual knowledge, divinely revealed by the very God these educators have been unable to discover on their own—and whom they could never discover on their own.

    Some years ago, a world-famous evangelist declared of the trinity, “When I first began to study the Bible years ago, the doctrine of the Trinity was one of the most complex problems I had to encounter. I have never fully resolved it, for it contains an aspect of mystery. Though I do not totally understand it to this day, I accept it as a revelation of God…To explain and illustrate the Trinity is one of the most difficult assignments to a Christian.”

    How true! With at least ten recognized versions or definitions—descriptions—of the trinity, no wonder it cannot be understood.

    continued/...

     [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 08, 2007 3:08 AM

    (In our new book, The TRINITY – Is God three-in-one?, you will see the baffling “mystery” of the supposed trinity god solved.)   (NOTE:  YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS THESE THROUGH POSTED LINKS I AM GOING TO LIST - Paddy)

    If the trinity represents the true God, we could ask: Why is there such widespread confusion and division about Him? Why is not the subject of God clearplain—to the common man? The apostle Paul, under inspiration, recorded that “God is not the author of confusion” (I Cor. 14:33). Confusion is not the way of God. He never wants His servants to be in confusion. Why then have so many been willing to accept without question such widespread confusion and disagreement on the nature of God? So many of these same people readily say, “God just doesn't seem very real to me.” But they seem willing to let Him remain a mystery to them. Not only do the masses on earth today stand in ignorance of life's most important knowledge, including both the identity of the true God and correct understanding of the many biblical truths that He teaches, most do not appear to care about this. Billions do not even seem to want to know—to want to solve the mysteries of God and His Word.

    All of this said, you may have a certain amount of difficulty understanding some of the contents of our new book. In a sense, that may actually be good! Remember, the supposed god of the trinity has always been deemed unable to be explained or understood—a permanent mystery. This “god” has never made sense—and has never been the teaching of the Bible. It should not be strange then that the parts of this book that discuss the trinity will be somewhat confusing. After all, this is the core of the problem. Perhaps the best description of the trinity is summed up in the words of Winston Churchill, speaking of Russian actions in 1939 in World War II: “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    As you read, you will see that this famous saying almost perfectly defines the orthodox teaching of the trinity.

    But all the Bible's mysteries can—and should—be understood! What would be the point of God recording the many statements about Himself in His inspired Word so that none could ever grasp their meaning—comprehend them? Perhaps more than any other doctrine, God desires His servants to be able to understand and differentiate Him from all other gods. This means they must know how to carefully identify and separate Him—the true God—from the endless array of false gods, devised as part of men's religions.

    The baffling “mystery” of the trinity will be proven to be a fiction of men—and no part of the Bible's teachings.

    Counterfeit Church

    You will learn that the teaching of the triune, “three-in-one” god comes from the great, false universal religion, described in Revelation 17:5 as “Mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.” This “woman church” has used the trinity to infiltrate and deceive all of traditional Christianity. Originally introduced with much controversy, she has been able to successfully use this doctrine to limit the true God to a supposed three persons.

    continued/...

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     May 08, 2007 3:15 AM

    Part of this seduction has been then to necessarily introduce “another Jesus” (II Cor. 11:3-4), who becomes the centerpiece of “another gospel” (same passage), taught as a replacement of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the kingdom of god. All of this deception in turn is derived from and has been impelled by “another spirit” (also same passage)—that of the god of this world—active throughout this world's “churchianity” in the form of the counterfeit trinity god. The kingdom of God—Christ's message—offers the only real future for a world otherwise without hope. Only Christ's soon-coming, world-ruling supergovernment will solve humanities worst problems, trouble, evils and ills.

    Most assume that the word trinity is surely found in the Bible. But even this is not true—the word itself is nowhere in the Bible. The term and its meaning are a complete invention of deceived men. With this invention, the universal church has, in fact, been responsible for literally disfellowshipping—excommunicating!—the true God of the Bible from the world of supposed Christianity!

    Who and what then is God? Can He be understood? This book pulls back the veil concealing the true God from mankind and introduces Him to you. It will explain the origin and history of the trinity doctrine—and will cover the principle scriptures often cited to supposedly “prove” it, exposing the logic—actually the illogic—of trinitarian theology. It will explain the nature and role of the Holy Spirit. It will also answer the question, “Who and what was Christ?”—and “Is the Christ of the Bible the same as the one worshipped in popular Christendom?” And it will bring irrefutable contrary proof—the truth—from Scripture about the real nature of the true God of the Bible and Creation. This will open the door to understanding God's true plan for mankind.

    Read The TRINITY – Is God three-in-one?, and you will be stunned at what you will learn. The subject is compelling reading and unlike what you might expect on one that appears to be esoteric or only able to be understood by intellectuals. In fact, you may also find yourself wondering how anyone could possibly believe a doctrine so easily seen to be of pagan origin.

    The foregoing is an `extract` which you can read in tull here : http://www.thercg.org/books/ttigtio.html

    Links will follow in next post.

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     May 08, 2007 3:29 AM

  • Chapter One – NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
  • Chapter Two – ANCIENT ROOTS OF THE TRINITY
  • Chapter Three – ADDRESSING THE CONFUSION
  • Chapter Four – WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
  • Chapter Five – IS GOD ONE?
  • Chapter Six – DEFINING THE HOLY SPIRIT 
  • Chapter Seven – ANOTHER JESUS
  • Chapter Eight – WHO AND WHAT IS GOD?
  • Chapter Nine – THE GOD FAMILY
  • Chapter Ten – COLOSSAL DECISION—WHICH GOD?

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     May 08, 2007 4:06 AM

    I really don`t want to confuse you here by introducing a JEWISH `take` on how they view what GOD meant when He said `OUR image` in the Book of Genesis.  So, its up to you whether you read this or not.

    I have studied this trinity concept for many, many years (despite what anyone else might think to the contrary)     Several years ago, I went to the Ask Moses site to seek some information.   Please bear in mind that it is the JEWISH Scripture that Jesus would have read from, including the occasion when Mary & Joseph found Him in the Temple when He was just 12 years old, reading to the people.     It was Jesus Himself who stated that He hadn`t come to destroy The Law but rather to fulfil it.  A definite acknowledgement that HE accepted as being true that which was written in JEWISH Scripture.

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    Does the verse (Genesis 1:26) "Let us create Man." prove the Christian concept of Trinity?

    Our sages teach us that when G-d created Man, he was concerned that the angels would be jealous, for Man is the only creation like them who understands right from wrong. So G-d consulted with the angels before creating Man and said, "Let us make Man." The lesson from this is that one should always seek advice, even from those who are inferior to you.

    The next verse immediately says (in singular form) "And G-d created Man..."

    Nachmanides says that "Let us create Man," is referring to G-d and the Earth. For man is "In our image and form." Man consists of a body, which is in the image and form of earth; and a soul which is in the image and form of G-d.

    [In Genesis 3:22, "us" is referring to G-d and the Heavenly Court.]

    Rabbi N. Silberberg

    .

    I would like to make a few comments on the above in my next post.

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     May 08, 2007 4:19 AM

    Referring to the information in the previous post, I will attempt to try and comment on various statements the Ask Moses Rabbi made :

    1. Our sages teach us that when G-d created Man, he was concerned that the angels would be jealous, for Man is the only creation like them who understands right from wrong. So G-d consulted with the angels before creating Man

    Q - Might this be possible?

    A - IMHO, I would say: certainly it is possible.  The Bible tells us there were angels in heaven.  We are also told later that some angels became `rebelleous` and even came down to visit the daughters of men on the earth.    satan, too is referred to as a rebelleous angel.

    2. So G-d consulted with the angels before creating Man and said, "Let us make Man." The lesson from this is that one should always seek advice, even from those who are inferior to you. The next verse immediately says (in singular form) "And G-d created Man..."

    No real need of any question regards the above, whilst we know from Genesis that God said `Let US make man`  and that it also says `and God created man`  (proving that God was the SOLE Creator)

    continued

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     May 08, 2007 4:37 AM

    3. Nachmanides says that "Let us create Man," is referring to G-d and the Earth. For man is "In our image and form." Man consists of a body, which is in the image and form of earth; and a soul which is in the image and form of G-d. [In Genesis 3:22, "us" is referring to G-d and the Heavenly Court.]

    Again, this is not so much a question but rather it is merely a case of working out what is being said here.

    God said WE were made in HIS image.  I believe that our soul is in the image and form of God.  Our bodies are only earthly, phsical & dispensible.  It is our body that will go back to the earth when we die.

    The comment made (above) i.e.:  Man consists of a body, which is in the image and form of earth  is interesting.   We know that God formed Adam from the earth.  We are capable of reproduction.  In contrast, let us remember that the earth is capable of reproduction also.   It takes 9 months for a woman to produce a child.  In contrast it can take anything from just a few weeks, to a few months, to even years (trees)  for the earth to produce a flower, plant or tree - and the basic concept is there:  a seed must first be sown. 

    Even the pagans understand this basic concept when they refer to the earth as `mother earth`  (NOT that I recommend that we should use such terminology, because the Bible does not teach that we should pay homage to the earth, but rather that we should give praise, thanks & glory to GOD - the sole CREATOR of everything)

    Paddy

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     May 08, 2007 5:07 AM

    Continuing in the theme of what has been said so far, might we now take a more informed look at John 1:1  -  the most popular text cited by trinitarians - and which says : the word was with God, and the word was God.

    Yes it is claimed that `the word` was Jesus, but like so many texts I do believe there is always room for interpretation due (if nothing else) to translation.

    Jesus said: `before Abraham I AM`   -  I feel it is therefore open to interpretation as to whether Jesus was `in God`s mind`, or whether Jesus was there in `spirit form`   I dont even believe it is of vital importance to even know which of these it was.   Quite simply because, even Jesus ACCEPTED and ADMITTED that HE didnt know everything, and this can be clearly seen when His disciples asked Him as to when He would return to earth, and He told them that no man ONLY THE FATHER KNEW THE HOUR.    If Jesus could accept and submit to the fact that HE didnt have all the knowledge that His Father had, THEN WHY CAN`T WE ?

    What is important that we realise and accept is that GOD (the Father, the Creator) sent Jesus to earth in the form of a baby, born to Mary, without any human intervention, and that He grew up, taught His Father`s will, and submitted to it even unto death for our sins, and that He rose again into heaven where He sits on the right hand of God the Father, and whereby Jesus WILL return one day (hour unknown) to judge, having had all authority given unto Him.

    Final thoughts, we will go back to the Ask Moses site.  Perhaps the Jews, unlike us, are more accepting when it comes to realising that Scriptural translations can not always be easily decerned :

    Who wrote Sefer Yetzirah (the Book of Creation)?
    by Rabbi Yossi Marcus

    According to many authorities (Rabbi Saadya Gaon; Bachya; Kuzari; Zohar; Pardes, and others) Sefer Yetzirah was written by Abraham our patriarch. Other sources seem to indicate that it was written by Rabbi Akiba. Some have suggested that the ideas were those of Abraham and were passed down from generation to generation until Rabbi Akiba transcribed them. http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=238&o=487

    Paddy

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     May 08, 2007 6:18 AM

    Dynamite, your explaination on God being a family is the first time anything relating to the trinity has made perfect sense to me. Thank you.  [ send green star]
     
     May 08, 2007 6:26 AM

    Jeanette, Not one place do they say there is a trinity or refer to Father, Son, and Spirit being 3 in one. Don’t you think with them having more knowledge then most, having been taught by Jesus himself, would have at least made mention of that fact? God was in the clouds and the, the Spirit (power) descended on Jesus. God the Father and Christ are one. They are eternal beings that make up the God family and they are giving mankind the opportunity to join them in eternity as members of the God family. The Trinity doctrine teaches a closed Godhead that excludes humans. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is the power of God. Lucifer tried to take over heaven. He wanted to go to heaven. He has deceived mankind into thinking they will go to heaven. The doctrine of the Trinity also applies to Satan. At the beginning, before his rebellion, Lucifer was part of a Trinity. Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer were the three Archangels, a closed triad that executed the government of God among the Angels. By deceiving the world into believing that God is a Trinity, Satan is blocking mankind from understanding the awesome divine destiny awaiting everybody. A Trinity of Eternal God persons is closed and cannot be expanded like a family can. Christ, came at his first appearing to reveal the existence of God the Father (Luke 10:22). Until that time, the world had no knowledge of the existence of God the Father. That is one reason the religion of Judaism had believed that God consists of ONE PERSON ONLY. That is the reason theologians have lost, or rather never possessed, knowledge of the fact GOD is a FAMILY into which we may be BORN as part of that very God family. That, also, explains why, on reading in the New Testament of God the Father, and also of Jesus being God, they came up with the false theory of the Holy Spirit being a "Ghost," or third Person of a Trinity, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit and LIMITING God and doing away with all knowledge that converted humans can become members of the very divine God FAMILY. Thus Satan blinded "Christianity" from the truth and purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have overlooked a most important truth: the resurrection from the dead. They celebrate a pagan Easter acknowledging the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. But they overlook entirely the plain biblical teaching that all who ever lived are to be resurrected from the dead. The only hope the Holy Bible gives for the vast humanity of this dying world is the hope of a resurrection from the dead, but that is a positively sure hope. What a tragedy that, as plainly stated in Revelation 12:9, this whole world has been deceived and blinded from the truth by Satan the devil, still sitting on the throne of the entire earth. Paddy and Karla, but most of my previous post came from books also: MYSTERY OF THE AGES by Herbert W. Armstrong c. 1985 THE TWO BABYLONS A well-researched study by the Rev. Alexander Hislop. c. 1916 And from various other sites, and of course from the Bible. Thanks for the links, Paddy Of course I have a different view on the whole "us" bit which I won't go into detail here but just give the "short" of it... Before God created what we now call the Universe, he had created Angels. Angels were created as helpers. They were created for a specific purpose and they, unlike mankind, cannot die nor can they improve their station. They have self will and independence and are eternal beings. God created the Universe so that it would support PHYSICAL life. God gave the Angels the task of searching the Infinities that contained the Universe until they found the green jewel. Or, the Earth. God had an important plan and sent Lucifer (and a third of the angels) to come to Earth and help the lifeforms here achieve their ultimate potential. And for millions and millions of years all was according to God's plan. Once mankind evolved on the planet, Lucifer discovered the true meaning of ultimate potential. He learned it was man's potential, or destiny, to achieve "God Consciousness". Life on earth was to evolve to a level of intelligence capable of understanding God and God's plan. It is man's ultimate destiny to become greater than the Angels themselves! Of course this made Lucifer mad and he tried to take over the throne of God, but Lucifer was defeated and thrown back to Earth (because he hadn't finished his task). Satan resented that he was still suppose to help the souls on Earth and that there were billions of these souls on Earth. He tried to, and almost succeeded in destroying the Earth... he destroyed the Earth's ecosystem. God repaired the Earth, made Adam, etc. etc. so on and so forth... Satan is still ruler over the Earth until Jesus comes back to claim it. So the "us" in Genesis are also those who achieved God Consciousness... like Enoch did.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 08, 2007 6:42 AM

    Jn't when reading these verses you posted

    Matthew 3:16, 17  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    Mark 1:9 - 11  "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luke 3:22, 22  "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in the bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    John 1:15-34 - The witness of John the Baptist baring witness of Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the voice of God from heaven, all present at the same time. Two were visual and one audible but all three were present in the same moment.

    to me it is still not saying they are 3 in one. God already tells us when we are born again we all have the holy spirit in us (the word of God) that live in us to lead us and make us part of God, God voice is simply a father telling his son I am pleased (because he is doing his Fathers work). So to me they still 3 diffrent beings.

    What I see through all of these verses in the Bible is this . Yes, in the beginning the word was God (because it is Gods way his Law), Jesus was in the beginning in the Spirit world with God his Father, Jesus also had the word (Holy Spirit). God sent His son down in a human form to do his will here for him to bring mankind the word (Holy Spirit).

    Just like you said the spirit goes back to God upon our death, because we no longer need it to (teach, lead, or nudge us along the road of righteousness) anymore since we have already either recieved our salvation and done what is right, or have walked away from it by the time of our death.

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     May 08, 2007 7:01 AM

    Dynamite, you readilly admit that satan has deceived mankind on earth, yet you still state :

    God the Father and Christ are one. They are eternal beings that make up the God family and they are giving mankind the opportunity to join them in eternity as members of the God family.

    There is NO such wording in any of the Scriptural texts (relating to either Christianity, Judaism or islam)

    GOD is the FATHER

    JESUS is the SON

    The HOLY GHOST is God`s eternal spirit  (`moved on the face of the earth` in Genesis - and sent to the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost - as Jesus promised)

    The words GOD FAMILY is man made - inspired by satan himself. 

    The ACTUAL word `trinity` comes from PAGANISM.

    Please, please read the lengthy article I posted - it will make sense.

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     May 08, 2007 7:06 AM

    The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine

    by Cher-El L. Hagensick

    The Rabbi ‘s deep voice echoes through the dusk, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord’.{De 6:4} What a far cry that is from Judaism’s offspring, Christianity, and its belief in the Trinity. While the majority of the Christian world considers the concept of the Trinity vital to Christianity, many historians and Bible scholars agree that the Trinity of Christianity owes more to Greek philosophy and pagan polytheism than to the monotheism of the Jew and the Jewish Jesus.

     

    The search for the origins of the Trinity begins with the earliest writings of man. Records of early Mesopotamian and Mediterranean civilizations show polytheistic religions, though many scholars assert that earliest man believed in one god. The 19th century scholar and Protestant minister, Alexander Hislop, devotes several chapters of his book The Two Babylons to showing how this original belief in one god was replaced by the triads of paganism which were eventually absorbed into Catholic Church dogmas. A more recent Egyptologist, Erick Hornung, refutes the original monotheism of Egypt: ‘[Monotheism is] a phenomenon restricted to the wisdom texts,’ which were written between 2600 and 2530 BC (50-51); but there is no question that ancient man believed in ‘one infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all’ (Hislop 14); and in a multitude of gods at a later point. Nor is there any doubt that the most common grouping of gods was a triad.1

    Is this positive proof that the Christian Trinity descended from the ancient Egyptian triads? No. However, Durant submits that ‘from Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity...’ (Caesar 595). Dr. Gordon Laing, retired Dean of the Humanities Department at the University of Chicago, agrees that the worship of the Egyptian triad Isis, Serapis, and the child Horus’ probably accustomed the early church theologians to the idea of a triune God, and was influential ‘in the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity as set forth in the Nicaean and Athanasian creeds’ (128-129).

    (only an extract) MORE

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     May 08, 2007 7:08 AM

    Sorry about that... I forgot to add "family" at the end of the first sentence.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 08, 2007 7:16 AM

    Let us check out that KJV text for  `Hear O Israel`   with the JEWISH texts :-

    Devarim - Deuteronomy

    Devarim - Chapter 6

    4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.

    These are the very Scriptures that Jesus, AS A JEW, would have read !

    Now either Jesus IGNORED any errors...

    or satanic influenced christians got it wrong !!

    WHICH IS IT ?

    I know which I would choose to believe.

    Jesus said He had come `to fulfil the Law`  (i.e. God`s Law as set down in Jewish Scripture)   I dont believe He would have wanted to fulfil it had it not been accurate and correct, do you ?

    Paddy.

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     May 08, 2007 7:25 AM

    Like I said I get some info from other sources and though I might agree with the overall there may be some details that I don't agree (or don't completely agree) with.

    For instance...
    "Until that time, the world had no knowledge of the existence of God the Father."

    I think the world (or parts of it) may have had the knowledge but not the wisdom... they also thought "trinity" or many Gods, etc.


    This post was modified from its original form on 08 May, 7:27  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 08, 2007 7:37 AM

    Dynamite,    OK, by you adding the word `family` I can partly understand now what you are saying - but I`d prefer to drop the word `FAMILY` - and I will explain why I say that :-

    I tend to view the word `family` as somehow putting God - Jesus - and Holy Spirit - all on one level (all equal etc)

    Did Jesus not say :  (quote) :  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.  Mt 19:17   Mr 10:18   Lu 18:19

    Therefore JESUS  COUNTED  HIMSELF  AS  BEING  ON  A  MUCH  LOWER  LEVEL THAN  HIS  FATHER.

    Again we read : 

    Joh 14:28 - Show Context Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    So I am NOT lowering Jesus`s status here -  HE  DID.

    That is why I keep it simple :

    GOD - is over all - Creator & giver of life itself.

    JESUS - God`s Son  - faithful servant even unto death.

    HOLY SPIRIT - GOD`s spirit sent down to mankind.

    No equals - but EACH important in their own way.

    Paddy

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    Keep the Focys On God May 08, 2007 7:44 AM

    The concept of the Trinity does not fit the framework of common logic, nor can it be fully analyzed by our intellect. But this is no reason to say it is the invention of theologians.

    To declare that the one and only God has made Himself known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is simply an attempt to define what the Scriptures teach (John 10:29-30; Acts 5:3-4).

    To commit our lives to this triune God is to begin to see with the eye of faith His greatness as our Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer.

    Doesn't it make sense that the One we worship, and to whom we entrust our lives, should be vastly greater than our limited understanding?


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     May 08, 2007 7:59 AM

    Frank,  it ISN`T even complicated if we keep within the framework of what JESUS TAUGHT,  instead of going off at a tanget trying to work out what mankind has made of it.

    Jesus came to the earth to SHOW US what God`s Love was like, and what God`s Will was.

    He illustrated, by parable, after parable, after parable, HOW God wanted us to live.    

    He showed LOVE....

    He offered HEALING....

    but as well as these things HE showed HUMILITY.....    how to SERVE.

    Jesus served His Father (God) - and also served His disciples, showing them the ultimate example of humility when He washed their feet.

    There is NO complexities...

    sadly only MAN`s only arrogance NOT to accept and understand.

    LIttle wonder how Scripture indicates that in the end times:  man will not see - will not hear - but rather will follow his own false teachers and passions....   yep, guess satan is the god of this system  (for now !!)

    Paddy

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     May 08, 2007 8:07 AM

    The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true or not based on the teachings of the Bible.

    Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word "Trinity" is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods. The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term "Trinity" even though the word is not found in the Bible. It is shorter to say the word "Trinity" than to say "3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God." If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob. So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself. What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture. With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

     1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

     2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

    In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking.  Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son.  Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

    3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

    4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

    5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

     


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     May 08, 2007 8:09 AM

    6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

     

    The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

     

    The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

     

    None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.  Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

    Below is the best symbol for the Trinity I'm aware of:

    Trinity diagram

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     May 08, 2007 8:09 AM

    Paddy,
    Well, isn't the parent "higher" than the child here on Earth?


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     May 08, 2007 8:10 AM

    Paddy, I also agree that the us is refered to the Angels. I also think that because we know that God has the angels do his work here on earth, that is when man made the mistake of worshipping the angels in charge of variuos task such as taking control of the sun, wind, etc, there is a hint in revelation about this job they do.

    Verses from Revelation

    6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. (Crown symbolizes authority, bow symbolizes a warroir)

    6:4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

    6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

    6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

    7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

    7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

    In this whole book of Revelation we see the many jobs the angels are doing for God. We know it is not God or Jesus performing these task. Because God is mentioned many time as He who is sitting on the thrown, and Jesus as the Lamb who is the one opening the seals of the scroll (the only one worthy because his Father gave him the authority).

    Even in other books of the Bible we see diffrent task God has sent the angels to do. If anyone has ever looked at other religions there are a few who have the same theory. There is one God, but what they call sub-gods or underlings. In the some of the lost scripture of the Bibles which were not allowed it also talked about one God and sub-gods.

    The post at the bottom was from the thread on modern church history, but pertained to the trinity.

    The Bible Explicitly Teaches That There Is Only One God... April 28, 2007 1:28 PM

     Mata

    That statement may be misinterpreted...how do you explain these verses?

    Deuteronomy - Chapter 10, Verse 17:

     For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Exodus - Chapter 34, Verse 14: 

    For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

    What's the first of the Ten Commandments?

    Exodus - Chapter 20, Verse 3:

    Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.

    Response on next post

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     May 08, 2007 8:12 AM

     Karla

    Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome,......

    Angels are called gods, so are magistrates, and the Gentiles had gods many, and lords many, the creatures of their own fancy; but God is infinitely above all these nominal deities. What an absurdity would it be for them to worship other gods when the God to whom they had sworn allegiance was the God of gods!

    We also know from the Bible that angels do his will here on earth, unfortunately in those days people chose to worship them instead of God Himself and He became angry for He is the creator of all and deserved the honor.

    Ex. 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, who name is jealous, is a jealous God),

    Do not give divine honour to any creature, or any name whatsoever, the creature of fancy. A good reason is annexed. It is at thy peril if thou do: For the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, as tender in the matters of his worship as the husband is of the honour of the marriage-bed. Jealousy is called the rage of a man (Prov. vi. 34), but it is God's holy and just displeasure. Those cannot worship God aright who do not worship him alone.

    We have to remember also that Lucifer was an angel who thought he should be worshipped as a god.

    Ex. 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

    1.God asserts his own authority to enact this law in general: "I am the Lord who command thee all that follows." 2. He proposes himself as the sole object of that religious worship which is enjoined in the first four of the commandments. They are here bound to obedience by a threefold cord, which, one would think, could not easily be broken. (1.) Because God is the Lord--Jehovah, self-existent, independent, eternal, and the fountain of all being and power; therefore he has an incontestable right to command us. He that gives being may give law; and therefore he is able to bear us out in our obedience, to reward it, and to punish our disobedience. (2.) He was their God, a God in covenant with them, their God by their own consent; and, if they would not keep his commandments, who would? He had laid himself under obligations to them by promise, and therefore might justly lay his obligations on them by precept. Though that covenant of peculiarity is now no more, yet there is another, by virtue of which all that are baptized are taken into relation to him as their God, and are therefore unjust, unfaithful, and very ungrateful, if they obey him not.

    Also in the lost scripture it went into greater detail about God's jealousy towards the angels (su-gods) being worshiped for the work they do, because God created all and he deserved all the glory.

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     May 08, 2007 8:16 AM

    Dynamite, you've got that right... Good question

    Thanks for sharing such good information

    Blessings, Blanca

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     May 08, 2007 8:48 AM

    Karla Great post! Yes that's what I was getting at... The knew of God but not in the sense that he is THE FATHER... as apposed to just being a higher God.

    Angels would be like servents or nurses... they tend to the Divine Family and Do the will of the Father, not because they have to, but because they WANT to... out of LOVE.



    Blanca, you're welcome.



    Now, if you guys will excuse me, I have to go get some things done
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     May 08, 2007 9:11 AM

    Yes if you try to compare our life here as a family to the family in the spirit world it makes more sense.

    God = Father

    Jesus = Son of God (off spring)

    Holy Spirit = Gods word/ law/ presence in all

    Father = Head of household

    Child = off spring of man

    uprearing = rules, morals, lessons (holy spirit) which guides us is in all.

    Even scientifically we are in our children because they have our Dna, but we are 2 seperate. The raising of a child is in them because it is fend into there minds which guides to do right from wrong, but it is not a person rather a reminder/ voice of what is right and wrong. It is a piece of us as well that we instill into them.

    Jesus does have his Father in him Dna, but they are 2 seperate. God gave the Holy Spirit a part of him, his teaching of right and wrong to all even to Jesus, but it is not a person it is the small voice our subcontious that tells us and reminds us of what is right and wrong.

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     May 08, 2007 1:38 PM

    "Yes if you try to compare our life here as a family to the family in the spirit world it makes more sense."

    "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven."
    (Matthew 6:10).

    OK back to work for me
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     May 27, 2007 11:56 PM

    But the New Testament requires us to stretch so that we might obey Jesus' own words, to make disciples and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19)

    Matt 18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Matt 19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Matt 20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

    In the Bhagavad Gita, it tells about our fragment Soul (the Son) that resides within the heart...and, that there is also Gods own Spirit (the Father) residing in the heart right along side the our fragmented Spirit. Both of which are wholly Spirit.

    So there is the Father/Creative Force, there is our own Soul...without which...the body is nothing but stardust of the Earth (the Earth IS a star, right?) And therefore we are Wholly Spirit in a human body.

    Do you know that scientifically...if you could travel deep inside a human cell, everything would probably be pitch black. But as you traveled farther, a faint glow might catch your eye. As you approached this mysterious light, it would grow brighter and brighter, until it appeared as blinding as a wildfire burning everything in its path.

    At that very moment, you would be witnessing the fundamental furnace of life---your mitochondria. These amazing cellular structures are quite literally your body's energy factories. It is right here where your body gets its energy.

    I believe it is that very fire that is the Force of God...and that is why I keep saying DNA...it's in EVERY single cell. So, the way I figure it, if that's the case, then we are within the body of God and that's also why God is considered to be everywhere, round about us...and, since we are in the image/likeness of God...God is also within us.

    There now. Isn't that easy?

    And, on the side...

    Scientists have pinpointed a chemical messenger that frees some white blood cells from the body's normal constraints, allowing the cells to act like renegades that could damage nerves in the central nervous system.

    Huh!?

    What I'm getting at, is that...some holistic Doctors may tell cancer patients to imagine the T-regulatory cells being activated like white cell armies. T-R cells have to do with the immune system and controlling the T-effector cells that may have gone wild and cause disease. Cancer is when the body eats away at itself, killing all cells that  come into contact. It's like war. A greedy, hungry cell that has gone crazy.

    Lets think about the war going on in the body...isn't that like what's happening in the world today?  What is happening to our soul? The soul struggles in a material world becoming conditioned to desire. It has forgotten that the desire is God. The Earthly body covers the soul, and in carrying that burden, often there is an inability to see the truth? We search...we think money is what will quench the desire. No wealth does not buy happiness. We think that sex might bring happiness and quench the desire. In Mick Jaggers words...I can't get no satisfaction.

    Why? If the mitochondria needs a constant fire to work efficiently...don't you think that we need to nurture our Souls by knowing just who we are? Details are boring. Keep it simple...just love God...and love others as if they were fragments of God. 

    All cells in the body of God must function correctly to be able to sustain life. Without God, we...as firey, fragmental sparks will no longer exist. We must heal our cancerous actions, for life without all the important organs functioning in unison...just might put out the light and warmth of the fire.

    In the world it's war...in the body, it's a cancerous disease and in the soul...it's forgetting to love God and think peacefully. All working toward the greater good, which is loving God...will bring about compassion. And because love is compassion... happiness thrives where there is love.

    Love & Peace 

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     May 29, 2007 3:42 PM

    May I offer a simple explanation that might help some to see that the Trinity can and does exist.

    For an example "H2O"  or "water."  I is water no matter what form it takes.  It can appear to us in the forms of hail, sleet, snow, but none the less, it is still water, and sometimes that hail, sleet or snow is mixed with water as rain.  That is how we see Jesus, He is God in the form of the flesh. The Scriptures say He was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The Word  was made flesh and dwelled among us. 

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     May 29, 2007 10:47 PM

      It makes sense.

    Why do humans always try to complicate things?

    And if it's all about doing God's WILL...have we come to an understanding about just what that 'WILL' might be?? Another question... so what if the trinity is a Pagan concept? Who says that the Pagans can't be as close to the truth as a Christian?

    Love & Peace

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     May 30, 2007 11:05 AM

    Here's an interesting scripture...

    John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    The meaning of...'I have overcome the world' means that Jesus was an incarnation...you could interpret that to mean Son of God. We are created in the image of God and Jesus never once tried to deny anyone of that title. We are also Son of Man. We, as spirit, desire to experience material existence...it's like apprenticeship...learning to create our own realities.

    When we, as the imitation's of God, forget the source of our existence, we have become conditioned by the world which is only an illusion. We then suffer, because the knowledge of our beginning has been buried beneath turmoil. We have forgotten that we are all like drops of water that make up a great body of water, if you can imagine God as the ocean. Only then, can you glimpse the greater essence.  

    So, if unity can be seen in the trinity...each point representing a psychological entity that connects to create an upward meeting of the mind. There may be spiritual enlightenment.

    Matthew 7:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    Love & Peace

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     May 30, 2007 11:10 AM

    Oops, that's Matthew 6:22, not 7.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 30, 2007 12:42 PM

    "But the New Testament requires us to stretch so that we might obey Jesus' own words, to make disciples and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19)"

    Doctrinal corruption is found at Matthew 28:19, where it reads: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"   (Matt 28:19-20 KJV). Of this verse The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics writes: "It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional view. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive, but its trustworthiness is impugned on the grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism".

    Of the interpolation of Matthew 28:19 where the Church of Constantine attempted to prove the doctrine of the Trinity by inserting it into the text, The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics writes: "The facts are, in summary, that Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 twenty one times, either omitting everything between 'nations' 'and teaching', or in the form 'make disciples of all nations in my name,' the later form being the more frequent". Quoting Eusebius directly, his text reads:  "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you".

    "Matt 18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

    All POWER is GIVEN unto me... Power (the Spirit OF God)... Given -- By GOD, the FATHER. There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge.

    Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:

        One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!

        One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!

        One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!

        The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!

        A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

    Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

        "I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

    Please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

    Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

    Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

    Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

    Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

    This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

    And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

    God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

        "...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

    Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

    And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

        "Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

    Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity.

    Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

        For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

    As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity.


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     May 30, 2007 2:37 PM

    Mata:  I'm sorry to disagree with your statement:

    We are created in the image of God and Jesus never once tried to deny anyone of that title.

    Adam was created in the image of God, and Eve, but we are not.  When Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, we lost the image of God.  I direct you to. . . . .

    Genesis, Chapter 5

    1  This is the book of the generations of Adam.  In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    3.  And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

    4  And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

    5  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    We are no longer created in the pure, holy, innocent, sinless image of God. 

    We are now in the likeness and image of Adam, sinful, unclean and in need of a Spiritual cleansing, in need of Atonement for that sinful nature inherited from our first parents, in need of a Saviour, in need of forgiveness, in need of Redemption. 

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     May 30, 2007 7:47 PM

    Then how do you explain Gen. 9:6 Where God says
    "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." ?
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     May 30, 2007 9:08 PM

    When God Created Adam, it was right after the earth had emerged from a watery grave and everything was pure and clean. 

    In Genesis 9:6, the Flood of Noah had just ended and again the earth had just emerged from its watery grave.  Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, were concidered to be righteous, that is why God saved them from destruction in the Flood.  They were the only souls left upon the earth.  With a clean start and righteous mankind, it was again "like" but not exactly as Adam in the Garden.  God was instituting Human Government when these words were spoken and it is this verse that ordains Capital Punishment.  (6) "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made he man."  Before the Flood, God issued punishment upon mankind, but after the flood he vowed never to destroy the earth again by water, and he gave the government of the earth to mankind.  From this day forward, if mankind shed another's blood, as Cain did Abel, then by man must his blood be shed.  It is not to be an individual thing but a government punishment.  In the verses just prior to this, God was instructing them as to what they could eat just like he did with Adam in the Garden.  It was a new beginning. 

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     May 30, 2007 9:57 PM

    That almost made sense except that if they were "pure or rightous" enough to be seen as in "Gods' image" wouldn't he have then either placed them in the garden of eden or brought them home to heaven?

    And if he didn't mean it for EVERY man then why didn't he specify that "you are the only ones in Gods' image and if anyone sheds your blood..."? But God didn't say that or even alude to anything like it, he said:

    Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    "Whoso" (anybody who) sheds, not just the unrighteous... who's blood? "MAN's" not just this man or that man but ANY MAN'S blood... "for in the image of Gods" (It should be "Gods" because it's the same plural form used in the begining of Gen. Which means "he" should be "them/they" or omited altogether) "made" who? not this man or that man but "MAN" in general.


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     May 30, 2007 10:09 PM

    You are trying to reason out the Scriptures with the wisdom of man, and cannot begin to understand the Wisdom of God.  Noah and his family were still in the sinful flesh, inherited from their first parents, Adam and Eve.  It was not long after that, that Noah was found drunk, his son, Ham, saw Noah's nakedness while he was passed out, and told his brothers about seeing his father naked.  God knew that they were not perfect or innocent as was Adam when he was Created, and he knew that they would fall again, it was the nature of sinful mankind. A new dispensation had begun, and they had to move forward, they could not go back into the Garden.  You are an intelligent person, you know how to read and write, you don't need me to explain every verse of Scripture to you.  You only need to read it for yourself and let God reveal the truth to you instead of accepting every false doctrine in the wind that "sounds" good to you.  Read it all, and study it.     [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     May 30, 2007 10:46 PM

    "You are trying to reason out the Scriptures with the wisdom of man, and cannot begin to understand the Wisdom of God."

    But YOU, who believes in the closed Godhead of the trinity with no scriptural proof CAN understand?

    "those who have ears, let them hear...." so we are capable of understanding and God wasn't speeking a parable, he says it plain as day.

    "you don't need me to explain every verse of Scripture to you."

    IF you are so much better at understanding than me then I would need you to explain it, but you are right I don't need you to explain it.

    "You only need to read it for yourself and let God reveal the truth to you"

    I have... and what makes you think otherwize? Have you?
     
    "instead of accepting every false doctrine in the wind"

    And who says they're false? You?

    "that "sounds" good to you."

    No, I accept that which God leads me to and which brings me closer to Him reguardless of what my fellow man thinks.

    "Read it all, and study it."

     
    I have and am. How about you?

    Why do you always feel the need to get personal instead of just discussing a subject?

    I still disagree with you but I'm going to leave it alone for now and get to bed.

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     May 31, 2007 7:58 AM

    When I said that you reason with the wisdom of man, it was because of all the uncertainty that you use in your posting and also the "WHAT IF'S".  You use a lot of "why's" which all indicate that you are not really sure, so you depend upon the logic of mankind to reason it out by the process of elimination.

    Also, I told you something you were unfamiliar with (the image and likeness of Adam) so you find a Scripture that you feel contradicts it.  Then you ask ME how to explain that verse.  If you knew, you wouldn't be asking me.  You would be able to understand and accept the truth as it is written.  Those that are indwelled with the Holy Spirit are enlightened and taught those things of God that are not easily understandable by the Natural Person.  As you already know, the Bible was not written for the lost, the unsaved, those not born again.  Their minds have been blinded and they will never understand the truth from reading it for themselves.  The Word was written for those that are born again, children of God, in whom the Holy Spirit enlightens.  We are all at different levels of Spiritual growth and maturity.  Some of us are newer converts than others, and others have been students of the Scriptures much longer.  Because one might appear to be more enlightened doesn't put down those that are younger in the Spirit, but lifts them up as they are pointed to a different light than they are able to focus on by themselves.  Isn't that why we are all here?  To learn from one another?  To assist one another in our Spiritual walk? 

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     June 01, 2007 2:50 PM

    While it is true that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are interlinked, there isn't any scriptual backing that they are all one in the same. Show me just one verse which states that "The Trinity" is so. In fact the word Trinity, itself can't be found in the Bible. Our God is a great many things, however, I don't think he was a "prankster". The bible provides all the knowledge, we as men, could ever need.It was not God's intention to have it become some sort of Mystery Novel. It is true that much of it, is explained, in a symbolic, yet consistent manor. "Trinitarians" need to take the Bibles entirety, into account,& see the greater, and overall message within. Instead of a pulling a few verses, which may SEEM to validate the trinity theory, they should consider the bibles wholeness, from Genesis to Revelation. Tell me who or what was Gods very first creation??? Please all you Bible scholars, do not say The unniverse, the earth, or Adam?? Then explain how your "trinity theory" fits into the actual answer!! Oh, and please do try to "Practice what you preach" when addressing those, who may not be as "Bible Book Smart" as others. In the end, God's true desire, for men, is not how many scriptures they can quote..No I do not believe that any such thing, will get you into the Kingdom of Heaven. Love thy neighbor.. "LOVE" truly is the answer. If Jesus responded to questions, the way some, on this thread have, I do believe, many of his divine teachings would have fallen on more deaf ears, than they already did. He would have failed to be The greatest Teacher, who ever lived. It takes so much more than memorized information, to teach another. If ones delivery and tone are off, then that in itself will drown out the sound of the intended message. Anyhoo, my name is Stacey, and its great to be here, among you all. Please know, I offer only that, of which I am certain in my heart. I do not and will not, ever feel that my beliefs supersede all others. Thank you all for sharing...  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     June 01, 2007 5:36 PM

    "... it was because of all the uncertainty that you use in your posting and also the "WHAT IF'S"...

    What uncertainty and "what if's" in this thread are you refering to?

    ..."You use a lot of 'why's'"

    Again, Where in this thread or on this subject?

    ..."which all indicate that you are not really sure,"...

    Sometimes I ask questions to emphasize the answer, sometimes it's to lead someone else to think, sometimes it's just to hear someone's else's view, and yes, very sometimes times it is because I am not sure. (my learning will not be over until God takes me home... and maybe not even then) However, those times that I'm not sure, even though I will ask others I still rely on God to lead me to the knowledge and truth.

    "Also, I told you something you were unfamiliar with (the image and likeness of Adam) so you find a Scripture that you feel contradicts it. Then you ask ME how to explain that verse. If you knew, you wouldn't be asking me. You would be able to understand and accept the truth as it is written...."

    I was not unfamiliar with it, I do understand it. I asked because I wondered if you really understood it and I wanted to know how YOU would explain it to make it fit with what you said... I didn't NEED you to explain it, I wanted YOUR explination.

    "Some of us are newer converts than others, and others have been students of the Scriptures much longer."

    Just because someone hasn't studied as long doesn't mean that they are not more knowledgable than the ones who have studied longer. God can bring anyone understanding in an instant, if he so chooses. And also there are 10yr olds who are in college yet there are people 3 times there age with way more years of study who still can't understand some of the things that the 10yr old can.




    Stacey *Great post! and Nice to meet you.

    "It takes so much more than memorized information, to teach another.
    If ones delivery and tone are off, then that in itself will drown out the sound of the intended message."

    Here's hoping my delivery and tone are not "off" I do try not to sound "high & mighty" (as my mother would say) I'm just trying to say what I do or don't believe and why I do or don't believe it.



    I believe God intends to bring ALL of us home... not just a few.

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    Trick Question June 01, 2007 6:16 PM

    A Christian believes in the Trinity, with Jesus fully God and fully Trinity.

    The question is a trap, set up to discredit Christian Faith.

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     June 01, 2007 11:14 PM

    Hi Frank, Sorry but that was not the correct answer. The question is legitimate, and the answer is indeed found in the good book.It was asked with no ill intent, no trickery or master plan, to discredit the Christian faith. I am a christian. I honor Christ and our almighty father, however I do not believe that they, along with holy spirit, are one in the same. You will find their are many "christians" who feel the same. Do you mean to tell us, that if we do not believe in the trinity, then we are NOT true Christians?? Dynomite..continue on in your studies, and take your time my friend. There is no deadline to meet,as God only wants you to understand and truly feel,all that you are getting from reading his "word"!! May all that is good be yours.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
     
     June 05, 2007 2:53 PM

    Pardon me brothers and sisters in Christ. Permit me to salute our dear sister Beauty for posting her topic for discussion. Let us not bash our sister for her effort. Rather, let us edify her spirit. I wish to add my comment. Hopefully, it may shed some new light to our understanding.

    The keyword missing is uni. Uni is a root word that connotes the meaning of one whole. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost (i.e. trinity)comprise the whole amount of whom God truly is as a Diety.

    If we were to extend the root meaning of uni further out into infinity, then it may lead us to discover new words such as: unit, unite, united, universe, universal, univesity, unilateral, unison even unanimous.

    Suppose we were to subtract any part of the trinity from the godhead. Then, God could no longer exist as a unified body over our universe.

    Each part of the godhead serves a specific purpose. The Father of the godhead is God himself. He makes all the final decision as to when, where, and/or how his power will be used. God has relegated his devine power to the Holy Ghost which constitutes his spoken word.

    Jesus was born of God's word. Thus, he has received the power of the Holy Ghost to work miracles. When we are reborn as Christians, then we gain the authority to receive the Holy Ghost same as Jesus. The Holy Ghost can work miracles through us predicated upon our faith and unity.

    I salute each of you,

    Brother in Christ



    This post was modified from its original form on 05 Jun, 14:55  [ send green star]  [ accepted]

     
     February 01, 2008 7:02 AM

    Does the Bible teach that God is a “Trinity”—three persons in one being? Most professing Christians answer “yes.” Although long the litmus test of traditional Christianity, the triune god is deemed a mystery unable to be understood. Other questions arise: How does the sacrifice of Christ fit with the “three-in-one” god? How did Jesus “extricate” Himself from the Father and the Holy Spirit to die as Savior? And then there is this: If God is not a trinity, what is He? What have scholars, theologians and Bible students missed? Millions assume the trinity doctrine to be true and that Scripture proves it. Yet, God’s Word reveals something very different—and much greater—about the nature of the true God. Here, made plain, are the facts of history—and what the Bible really teaches about what and whom is its author!

    The subject of God is mysterious, confusing to almost all. Yet, the single most important knowledge in the universe would be that of the true God. What could be more important than which God one worships? Millions, indeed billions, have asked who and what is God? This all-important question has confounded man for millennia.

    He has still not found the answer!

    With the explosion of new and different brands of Christianity, this confusion about God has only grown worse in the modern age. The so-called “great religions” of the world have only added to this confusion. Yet, correctly identifying the true God is the central issue and question towering over everything that is important in life. The answer to this question lies at the very core of all that is true religion. And, for those who believe the God of Creation authored the Bible—Christians!—the question comes into sharper focus. Who and what is the God of the Bible?

    Millions of professing Christians believe in, speak of and weekly sing about God as a “trinity”—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Acceptance of this god has become perhaps the greatest litmus test of orthodox or traditional Christianity. But is the Bible’s God a trinity—three persons in one being? Can this be proven? Or is God a Family—and can this be proven? If the “trinity god” is false—if it is not the God of the Bible—it must be rejected. In its place must come an understanding of the true God.

    Which Is Better?

    Consider this question. Which would be better: having correct understanding of every single doctrine in the Bible, but having neither true knowledge of nor contact with the God who inspired it?—or, having absolutely no knowledge of a single Bible truth on any subject except the nature and identity of the true God, and contact with Him?

    Let’s consider this further. The Bible is filled with hundreds of distinct, separate doctrinal truths: the gospel, salvation, baptism, identity and location of the true Church, the name of that Church, whether one should keep holy Saturday or Sunday, whether one should observe the annual festivals of Leviticus 23 or various humanly-devised holidays, financial laws, the purpose of marriage, principles of proper childrearing, punishment in the afterlife, the nature of repentance and conversion, the unpardonable sin, dietary laws and health, healing, scores of prophetic truths, the law of God, the role of Christ, and many, many more. I ask again: Would it be more important to understand all of these Bible truths while at the same time lacking the knowledge of who is the true God—or to know nothing of them, but to have direct contact with the God who recorded them?

    Think! If one knew and was worshipping the true God, he would automatically be led into all the true knowledge offered by that God, revealed only to those who have a relationship with Him. This would no doubt happen relatively quickly after entering into such contact. The true God would not leave such a one in ignorance about exactly how He was to be worshipped—in other words, knowledge of all the many truths contained in His Word. The knowledge of the true Plan of God, the location of the true Church and Work of God—and every other divinely-revealed point of understanding—flows from being in direct contact with the true God. On the other hand, possessing all of the knowledge about every Bible doctrine would be utterly useless if one was worshipping the WRONG GOD! Mere knowledge of true doctrine would not necessarily, and certainly not automatically, lead such a person to the God who authored it, and thus his religion would be in vain.

    God has to reveal Himself to any who come to know Him!

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     February 03, 2008 7:12 AM

    Careless Assumptions

    Have you ever asked yourself why people believe as they do?—why so many have come to accept the doctrines that they hold as having come from the Bible? Why have you believed and accepted the things that you do? Almost all who consider themselves Christians have carelessly assumed from childhood the answer to the most important question that they could ever address—that is, do they have and are they worshipping the RIGHT GOD?

    Many come into adulthood having accepted without question what they repeatedly heard, read or were taught in Sunday school. They have been unwilling to challenge what all their peers have also accepted without question. Strangely, these same people will often vigorously defend their beliefs with absolutely no need to examine proof of why they believe what they do—or to consider how they came to such beliefs. Human nature wants to follow the crowd. And this has been the case with virtually every one of the popular church teachings, traditions and practices found in orthodox Christianity, which have been taken almost entirely from paganism, false customs and human reasoning. This is why the masses have followed a god that was conceived and developed entirely outside the pages of the Bible.

    Incredibly, I have even seen those who knew the true God become willing to carelessly exchange Him for another god as easily as taking trash to the dumpster. Yes, throughout history, many who have known the true God of the Bible have been willing to blur and even lose altogether the knowledge of who and what He is.

    Source of Deception, Confusion

    The apostle John described Satan the devil as having “deceived the whole world” (Rev. 12:9). His goal has been to keep man from having a relationship with his Creator. The apostle Paul described Satan as “the god of this world” who “has blinded them that believe not” (2 Cor. 4:4). Is it strange to think of Satan as this world’s GOD? Does this seem impossible to believe? Yet, there it is in your Bible. After all, as arch-deceiver, what would the devil most want to deceive—blind—mankind to, other than the identity of the true God? In fact, you will learn that Satan is the author of the trinity doctrine—that this false god is a counterfeit—a substitute deity—designed to deceive millions into unwittingly worshipping him, while thinking they are serving the God of Christianity and the Bible. (This thread does not capitalize “trinity,” as is normally done.)

    The highly educated of this world ought to know who God is! But they do not, because this is spiritual knowledge, divinely revealed by the very God that these scholars and educators have been unable to discover on their own—and Whom they could never discover on their own.

    These modern educators have been steeped in the false understanding of the theory of evolution. Because they have believed this fable, they have taught it to unsuspecting minds, and conditioned them to reject God’s revelation of Himself at the very beginning of Genesis. Then, having rejected the Creation account of Genesis, inspired by the God of the Bible, these have become blinded to the identity of the true God—leaving them utterly unable to find their way out of the maze of confusion in which they have placed themselves. Evolution has taught them self-reliance, and ultimately cut them off from the knowledge that would have freed them from ignorance in all the most important matters of life. There they sit, left without the answers to life’s greatest questions. Because intellectual vanity—pride—would not let them seek a higher power greater than their own minds, these have literally trapped themselves in confusion, with no idea where to turn for light.

    The Unknown Book

    If the Bible is as it has been called—“The Book that nobody knows”—then the One who authored it is truly the God that nobody knows! While this was not what He intended, this God has remained a mystery, concealed from a humanity willing to follow a “mystery god” that cannot be understood.

    Some years ago, a world-famous evangelist declared of the trinity, “When I first began to study the Bible years ago, the doctrine of the Trinity was one of the most complex problems I had to encounter. I have never fully resolved it, for it contains an aspect of mystery. Though I do not totally understand it to this day, I accept it as a revelation of God…To explain and illustrate the Trinity is one of the most difficult assignments to a Christian.”

    How true! With at least ten recognized versions or definitions—descriptions—of the trinity, no wonder it cannot be understood.

    to be continued...

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     February 04, 2008 8:03 AM

    In the world, mystery books are often the bestsellers. Everyone seems to like the proverbial “Whodunit?” Any mystery in which a crime was committed involves several critical elements that must eventually come to light—perpetrator, victim, crime scene, weapon, motive and other evidence. When this happens, there is tremendous satisfaction and excitement. No one would read a mystery book or watch a mystery movie if they knew in advance that the writer or producer of the mystery was not going to solve it in the end.

    The mysteries of men’s religions are different, however. They always remain mysteries. In the end, they are never explained—never solved—and followers of these religions are told that they must accept this. This is no truer than when it comes to the concept of a triune god. Why would vast numbers of people be willing to accept, for a lifetime, a mystery about God, when they would not accept this of a mere book or movie?

    Yet, they do.

    If the trinity represents the true God, we could ask: Why is there such widespread confusion and division—such disagreement—about Him? Why is not the subject of God clearplain—to the common man? The apostle Paul, under inspiration, recorded that “God is not the author of confusion” (1 Cor. 14:33). Confusion is not the way of God. He never wants His servants to be in confusion. Why then have so many been willing to accept without question this disagreement and confusion on the nature of God? So many of these same people readily say, “God just doesn’t seem very real to me.” But they seem willing to let Him remain a mystery to them. Not only do the masses on earth today stand in ignorance of life’s most important knowledge, including both the identity of the true God and correct understanding of the many biblical truths that He teaches, most do not appear to care about any of this. Billions do not even seem to want to know—to want to solve the mysteries of God and His Word. They seem willing to read a mystery book or see a mystery movie, knowing in advance the mystery will not be solved.

    All of this said, you may have a certain amount of difficulty understanding some of this thread. In a sense, that may actually be good! Remember, the supposed god of the trinity has always been deemed unable to be explained or understood—a permanent mystery. This “god” has never made sense—and has never been the teaching of the Bible. It should not be strange then that the more in-depth parts of this thread—those that discuss the trinity—will be somewhat confusing. After all, this is the core of the problem. Perhaps the best description of the trinity is summed up in the words of the former Prime Minister of Britain Sir Winston Churchill, speaking of Russian actions in 1939 in World War II: “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    As you read, you will see that this famous saying almost perfectly defines the orthodox teaching of the trinity.

    But all the Bible’s mysteries can—and should—be understood! What would be the point of God recording the many statements about Himself in His inspired Word so that none could ever grasp their meaning—comprehend them? Perhaps more than any other doctrine, God desires His servants to be able to understand and differentiate Him from all other gods. This means they must know how to carefully identify and separate Him—the true God—from the endless array of false gods, devised as part of men’s religions.

    You will see the baffling “mystery” of the supposed trinity god solved in this thread! It will be proven to be a fiction of men—and no part of the Bible’s teachings.

    Coded Book

    The Bible is a coded book. It is written as a kind of jigsaw puzzle creating a series of smaller pictures, and then an overall picture, that each only becomes clear in meaning when one properly pieces together all the various passages on a subject. Isaiah 28:10 describes God’s Word as written “here a little, and there a little.” This is the way we will study this subject. Also, we must let the Bible interpret itself, and this will be done throughout this thread. Because professing Christianity has not understood these two points, it has remained deceived, seduced by a counterfeit church, led by the counterfeit god of this world, who has substituted himself in place of the true God.

    to be continued...

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     February 05, 2008 6:17 AM

    Again, mankind has been deceived about God’s awesome purpose for it. Notice: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love Him” (1 Cor. 2:9). Here then is Paul, under inspiration, next explaining how men can understand both the truths and mysteries of God: “But God has revealed them [spiritual things] unto us by his Spirit…” (vs. 10). Take note that spiritual knowledge is not revealed by any supposed third Person of the trinity, called the Holy Spirit. Only “God” can reveal the truth of the Bible to those whom He is calling (John 6:44, 65)—and His Holy Spirit is the agent He uses to do this.

    Counterfeit Church

    You will learn that the teaching of the triune, “three-in-one” god comes from the great false universal religion, described in Revelation 17:5 as “Mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.” This “woman church” has used the trinity to infiltrate and deceive all of traditional Christianity. Originally introduced with much controversy, she has been able to successfully use this doctrine to limit the true God to a supposed three persons.

    Part of this seduction has been then to necessarily introduce “another Jesus” (2 Cor. 11:3-4), who becomes the centerpiece of “another gospel” (same passage), taught as a replacement of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the kingdom of god. All of this deception in turn is derived from and has been impelled by “another spirit” (also same passage)—that of the god of this world—active throughout this world’s “churchianity” in the form of the counterfeit trinity god. The kingdom of God—Christ’s message—offers the only real future for a world otherwise without hope. Only the arrival of Christ’s soon-coming, world-ruling supergovernment will solve humanity’s worst problems, troubles, evils and ills.

    Most assume that the word trinity is surely found in the Bible. But even this is not true—the word itself is nowhere in Scripture. The term and its meaning are a complete invention of deceived men. With this invention, the universal church has, in fact, been responsible for literally disfellowshippingexcommunicating!—the true God of the Bible from the world of supposed Christianity!

    Who and what then is God? Can He be understood? This volume pulls back the veil concealing the true God from mankind and introduces Him to you. It will explain the origin and history of the trinity doctrine—and will cover the principle scriptures often cited to supposedly “prove” it, exposing the logic—actually the illogic—of trinitarian theology. It will explain the nature and role of the Holy Spirit. It will also answer the question, “Who and what was Christ?”—and is the Christ of the Bible the same as the one worshipped in popular Christendom? And it will bring irrefutable contrary proofthe truth—from God’s Word about the real nature of the true God of the Bible and Creation. This will open the door to understanding God’s true plan for mankind.

    You will be stunned at what you will learn. The subject is compelling reading and unlike what you might expect on one that appears to be esoteric or only able to be understood by scholars and intellectuals. In fact, you may also find yourself wondering how anyone could possibly believe a doctrine so easily seen to be wrong, and of pagan origin.

    The Hardest Thing

    The most difficult thing for any person to do is to admit being wrong. Unlearning false knowledge and learning true knowledge in its place is not easy, and it can sometimes be a painful, shattering experience. But, you must put aside all bias when reading this thread. If you enter it with an open mind, once the evidence is laid out, you will be able to make a clear choice. This means that you must be willing to confess mistakes about beliefs and convictions, which in this case may have been held for a lifetime.

    In the book of Acts, the writer Luke describes those of the Greek city of Berea as “…more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (17:11). These new converts were open-minded—but they wanted proof. In all points, they turned to God’s Word as their sole source of truth on matters of doctrine.

    to be continued...

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    WHO IS JESUS; GOD; SON of GOD; Son Of MAN? February 05, 2008 7:47 AM

    A few weeks After i became a Believer in JESUS( God changed me from a Fanatic Anti-Christian Atheist to a Born Again Believer in JESUS by a MIRACLE when i was in a Moslem country); I was alone in my Room & i Cried out to GOD that Question...WHO is JESUS ..? While Praying with many tears...I wanted the Truth Directly from GOD & not to be affected By People, Sects or ideas...Then immediately i opened the BIBLE & my hand fell on the VERSE in  the Book of COLLOSIANS Chapter 1Verses 11 to 23....Especially the Verse that said that "JESUS IS the IMAGE of the UNSEEN GOD"...My whole Body had Goose pimples & i was filled with Deep peace at God's Quick answer....WHEN GOD TOOK THE FORM OF A MAN, WE CALLED HIM JESUS.......EVERYTHING CLEARED UP & I NEVER DOUBTED AGAIN WHO JESUS IS, WAS....PRAISES to GOD.

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     February 06, 2008 7:09 AM

    This is why Paul wrote the following instruction to every Bible student regarding every doctrine of the Bible: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thes. 5:21). Nowhere did Paul ever state, “Just trust me.” He wanted people to stand on the firm rock of Scripture on all matters. Further, he told the Romans, “Prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (12:1-2).

    Surely all such proof of doctrine would include proving who and what is God. It does! But first the stage must be set, and this will take time.

    NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME

    Virtually every Bible student is familiar with the term, “The Ten Commandments.” The famous almost 50-year-old movie of the same name is rerun every spring in connection with the celebration of the ancient supposed Christian tradition of Easter. Many millions have come to know the Hollywood version of the Bible account of the receiving of the Ten Commandments.

    America has been embroiled in a legal battle over whether the constitution—requiring the separation of church and state—allows for the Ten Commandments to be displayed publicly in courts and government buildings. But Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia put it best when he said, “I think 90 percent of Americans believe in the Ten Commandments, but 85 percent probably couldn’t tell you what they are.” And how many could even paraphrase half of them is another question.

    Therefore, largely lost in this astounding account in the book of Exodus is the all-important First Commandment, establishing Who it was that gave these laws to ancient Israel in the wilderness. This commandment must be firmly established in your mind from the outset of this thread. It lies at the heart of all religion.

    Moses recorded God’s words: “You shall have no other gods before Me” (Ex. 20:3).

    Surely, if the Bible is the inspired instruction book of an all-wise and all-powerful Creator God, who was also the only true God in the universe, His first commandment could not have been otherwise. Under no circumstances would that God want other gods worshipped in His place. In fact, in the very next commandment, the Author of these laws describes Himself as “a jealous God.”

    Notice this second, longer command: “You shall not make unto you any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (vs. 4-5). This commandment is a very broad, sweeping, explicit prohibition intended to cover every form of false worship involving every other kind of supposed “god,” and representation of such, that human beings with creative human reasoning could devise. Like any parent whose children chose to come home to a different house and to different parents after school, the Parent who made all human beings—His children—would certainly be jealous if they went off after idols and false gods.

    Even the Third Commandment is tied directly to the first two. It describes the careful reverence with which God wants His name to be used at all times. Here is that command: “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain” (vs. 7). The meaning of this commandment is that when people even reference the true God, they should be very careful how they do this (Psa. 111:9). They should think about the purpose—the reason—for which they mention His most holy name.

    to be continued...

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     February 07, 2008 9:47 AM

    The fourth and final commandment that we will examine here is also tied directly to the identity of the God of the Bible. Let’s first read this considerably longer command before examining it more closely: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it” (vs. 8-11).

    Although the world has generally discarded observance of the seventh-day Sabbath in place of Sunday, the first day of the week, this is nevertheless an extraordinary command, given for a vital purpose. It also creates a special problem for the evolutionist—even the one who professes to believe in God, including the God of the Bible.

    Here is how: God expects all of His servants to observe the seventh-day Sabbath. Why? So that they would never forget which God it was Who “in six days” created “heaven and earth,” and who sealed this by resting on “the seventh day.” In this way, the God who authored the Bible directly ties all of the Ten Commandments to the Creation account, which, in turn, leaves no room for His servants to drift into following and worshipping other gods. While one may not otherwise be correctly worshipping God, at least by observing the Sabbath every seven days, the adherent is forced to be cognizant of the sole God of Creation.

    The God of the Bible leaves no room for doubt in the first four commandments. He expects to be worshipped as He is, including on the day that He, not man, has selected for this worship. He allows no room for confusion and does not want human opinion added—He accepts no substitution of the true for the false.

    The evolutionist has a big problem trying to explain belief in a God who created the earth and all life upon it in six days. Having rejected the Creation account of this God it becomes much easier to go on to the next step—the very rejection of that God, and possibly the idea that there even is a God! Of course, faithful Sabbath observance would eliminate this problem.

    (Though this is a separate element of the subject, you should also take time to prove that, in fact, there IS a God. Consider reading our informative thread Does God Exist?)

     God Most Plain

    These commandments are not difficult to understand. The God of the Bible speaks plainly—He says what He means and means what He says! (Note that God repeats in Deuteronomy 5 the same Ten Commandments verbatim for emphasis.)

    We might pause at this point and ask: Do these four commands, when understood collectively, sound like the laws of a God who takes lightly those who worship any other but Himself? Do they seem like mere wishful instruction on the part of this God—things that He only hopes His followers will remember to do? Do they sound like the words of a God who is willing to let people worship idols, false gods or even any other wrong form of supposedly who and what He is, as long as the proponent proclaims such to be the true God?

    It has been said that the first four commandments describe how to love God and the last six reveal how to love one’s fellow man. Put another way, the first four commandments explain how to establish a relationship with the true God and the last six how to build relationships with human beings.

    A relationship with the God of the Bible begins with a recognition, understanding and acceptance of the first four commandments. All other approaches will preclude contact with Him.

    Did Israel Remain Faithful?

    We must ask whether the nation of Israel lived up to her promises to God made in the book of Exodus. And then we must briefly examine what can be learned from her record and how any lessons can be applied. You will see that the relevance to hundreds of millions alive today will be shocking—and unmistakable.

    God intended that the nation of ancient Israel be a model nation that all other nations would copy. This was always His purpose. He expected His people to set an example for these surrounding nations of how happiness, peace, abundance, blessings and protection from enemies would result from obedience to Him. Sadly, despite an early willingness and determination to obey God, starting when the commandments were first given at Sinai, Israel repeatedly found herself copying the nations around her and worshipping their gods, thus achieving the very opposite of God’s purpose! (Recall how quickly Israel fell into worship of the “golden calf” after the Ten Commandments were given—before Moses could even get down from the mountain.) This worship of false gods had repercussions lasting thousands of years.

    to be continued...

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     February 08, 2008 7:28 AM

    The long, broken history of Israel is that she turned from the true God and fell into the seductive trap of idolatry and the worship of foreign gods, doing this over and over again. Each time this pattern repeated itself, God sent her back into captivity and slavery. After a time, she would cry out in bondage, offering repentance, and God would raise up a judge and deliver her. But His people would quickly fall right back into the worship of false gods and idols, leading back to captivity, then to later repentance, again followed by God’s merciful deliverance—all of this happening time and again. This cycle, described in the book of Judges and elsewhere, was never broken until ancient Israel and Judah finally went into captivity (for the next-to-last time), with ten of the twelve tribes becoming lost to history. Only the Jews—Judah mixed with one other tribe—have retained their national identity, and this is largely attributed to having continued to observe God’s Sabbath.

    Jeremiah and Isaiah Summarize

    Here is how God, through the prophet Jeremiah, describes and laments the continual actions of His people—His “nation”: “Has a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? But My people have changed their glory for that which does not profit. Be astonished, O you heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be you very desolate, says the Lord. For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken Me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water” (2:11-13).

    The latter phrase in this passage accurately describes all the false gods devised by men and nations over the last 6,000 years. These man-made “gods”—made of wood, stone, metal and false thinkingare truly “broken cisterns, that can hold no water.” Yet, those nations (and religions) cleave to these fictional gods with a faithfulness Israel never showed to the true God.

    Jeremiah continues, describing Israel’s approach to gods she had copied and created: “Saying to a stock [of wood—a mere carved idol], You are my father; and to a stone, You have brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto Me, and not their face.” Speaking for God, Jeremiah then says of these gods, “but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are your gods that you have made you? Let them arise, if they can save you in the time of your trouble: for according to the number of your cities are your gods, O Judah” (vs. 27-28).

    This is a classic description of what is seen throughout the world in all the modern nations that consider themselves to be based upon Judaeo-Christian roots. Idols, carvings, religious statues and stained-glass windows, praising the saints, and doing hail Mary's abound on and in every church in every city, with no one thinking anything of it.

    Later on, we will take an in-depth look at the popular “Jesus” worshipped throughout Christendom today. As early as the first century, the apostle Paul was even warning God’s people at that time (the Corinthians)—those of His Church—of the danger of following “another Jesus,” who is tied to “another gospel” and this, in turn, he revealed is tied to following “another spirit” (2 Cor. 11:3-4). You will find this revelation to be positively stunning—shocking you beyond what you can possibly imagine the traditional “Jesus” taught in almost every church throughout the Western World.

    Now continuing with Jeremiah’s account. God had always made Himself available to Israel, easy to find for those who sought Him: “O generation, see you the word of the Lord. Have I been a wilderness unto Israel? A land of darkness? Wherefore say My people, We are lords; we will come no more unto You? Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Yet My people have forgotten Me days without number” (vs. 31-32). God has never been “a wilderness” to His people. The question has always been whether Israel would seek and obey Him.

    How many young women would ever permit themselves to dress up for a special occasion, but forget to put on jewelry—her “ornaments”? Surely few. Then, what bride could possibly forget to put on her wedding dress—her “attire”? Absolutely none.

    Yet, astonishingly, Israel had forgotten THEIR GOD!

    Of course, this was only able to happen because she disregarded God’s basic instruction—and commandments!—and got involved with the gods of surrounding nations.

    to be continued...

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     February 09, 2008 7:22 AM

    The prophet Isaiah declares this from God about the woeful—and ignorant—state of His people, then and today: “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord has spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against Me. The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: But Israel does not know, My people do not consider. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward” (Isa. 1:2-4).

    Isaiah is describing a nation that had fallen into every conceivable kind of corruption, evil and sin, all of which could be attributed to having forsaken the true God.

    The Twin Sins

    The entire chapter of Leviticus 26 outlines what God expected of Israel from the very beginning. Early in the chapter, He describes a long list of promises that He would fulfill if she obeyed, but includes an even longer list of punishments that would come upon Israel if she did not keep her part of the bargain. The first three verses of the chapter set the stage and reveal what God considered to be the two greatest “twin sins” that would set in motion the punishment to follow—idolatry and Sabbath-breaking. This warning brings special emphasis from God’s mind to avoiding idolatry at all costs and to always remember the Sabbath Day that points to the God of Creation!

    Let’s read these verses: “You shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall you set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. You shall keep My sabbaths, and reverence My sanctuary: I am the Lord. If you walk in My statutes, and keep My commandments, and do them…”

    God knew that if His people committed either of these great offenses, they would lose contact with Him—and every evil would result. But commission of these offenses also explains why the entire world is in such confusion, and is plagued by every problem, evil and ill known to man.

    Though it is not the subject of this volume, almighty God will soon intervene in the affairs of all nations. The time of final punishment of the modern nations descended from Israel, which will then involve the final captivity for disobedience, is soon to occur. (You are urged to read our thorough thread AMERICA and BRITAIN in bible prophecy to grasp the bigger picture of who these nations are and all that is at stake for them.)

    Worldwide Confusion—Gods and More Gods

    The world is filled with gods of every sort. It is as though mankind has reserved the very best of its creative powers for the invention of every conceivable type of god and goddess—whether composed of physical matter or defined by ethereal concepts in the mind. The world’s billions worship literally millions of gods.

    The apostle Paul expresses it best as he introduces the true God of the Bible: “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth (as there be gods many, and lords many), but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge…” (1 Cor. 8:5-7). (How interesting that Paul references “the Father” and “Jesus Christ,” thus differentiating them from all other “gods” and “lords,” but, missing the perfect opportunity, fails to mention the Holy Spirit, the supposed third member of the trinity. This kind of omission will be explored later).

    to be continued...

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     February 10, 2008 9:48 AM

    The Romans worshipped and built temples to an almost endless array of gods and goddesses. But it is said that the ancient Greeks worshipped as many as 30,000 gods. Not to be outdone, the Hindus of today reportedly have 5 million, including their own trinity consisting of Sheva, Brahma and Vishnu! Of course, the Egyptians, as did other civilizations, also had their own brand of a trinity—Osiris, Horus and Isis. Then there is Tao, Confucius, Buddha, and a host of other gods, goddesses and idols, worshipped today, including totem poles, nature, snakes, animals and fish in the sea, volcanoes and mountains, fire, wind, rocks, sun, moon, planets, stars and even certain human beings who are considered to be divine. Again, then, there are all the different kinds of metaphysical concepts of gods adored and worshipped in the mind—some of which have been depicted by physical symbols and representations rendered by artists. This describes the trinity.

    Yet, and most are probably not aware of this, vastly more people believe in the three-in-one god of modern Christianity than any other form of god.

    Trimutri, a Hindu triad of deities

    Osiris, Horus and Isis

    The Unknown God

    At this point, we need to look at a fascinating but longer passage that illustrates how superstitious mankind will worship almost anything, including worship of many gods at the same time to avoid possible offense to whatever god they may have overlooked. This account paints an astounding picture. Take careful note of the last sentence. The story from Acts involves Paul in Athens:

    “Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, You men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He gives to all life, and breath, and all things; and has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent” (17:22-30).

    Notice Paul’s reference “TO THE UNKNOWN GOD” (also found in capital letters in the King James Bible). God had to reveal this God to the superstitious Greeks through Paul. They had devised a “catch-all” inscription designed to include any other god missed in their “devotions.” Paul took note of how they had “covered themselves” in their determination to leave no stone unturned in the worship of every deity. But they had not tried to “seek,” “feel after” and “find Him.”

    King Solomon recorded that there is “nothing new under the sun” (Ecc. 1:9). Truly, the God of the Bible has been unknown to countless millions who have been content to worship a god selected for them by men. Theologians and religionists have sought the opinions of philosophers, scholars and supposed experts, instead of the only important opinion—that of God, found in His Word. We will see that, centuries ago, these religious leaders reported their findings to the masses who were only too willing to swallow what was presented to them without proof.

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     February 11, 2008 7:51 AM

    The God Who Is Alive

    Ultimately, we ask, What is the difference between the God of the Bible and all other gods? How does God Himself differentiate who and what He is from all others?

    Throughout Scripture, God describes Himself over and over again as “the living God”—the “Eternal”—“I AM THAT I AM” (the name in Exodus 3:14 that Moses was instructed by God to use when representing Him to Pharaoh). In other words, the God of the Bible establishes who He is and separates Himself from all other gods by declaring Himself to be alive!—LIVING!—meaning all other gods are non-existent or, in a sense, “dead.” In effect, put another way, the true God states, “I AM,” meaning other gods “are not”—period.

    It is vital that the reader continually ask throughout this thread whether he or she is worshipping the one true God—the God who is alive—or something non-existent, inert and “dead,” a god who is not! This question towers over all others presented here.

    The Heart of the Problem

    Let’s momentarily return to both ancient Israel and to modern theologians, educators and evolutionists. The prophet Hosea summarized Israel’s problem then and that of religionists and supposed “rationalists” of the modern age:

    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to Me: seeing you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children” (4:6). This is the problem that every reader of this book must squarely face. Will you reject vital knowledge offered here about God? Then, will you “seek” and “feel after” the true God?

    Paul, in the New Testament, is inspired to further record God’s view of those who have consciously, willingly rejected the truth of Who and What He is, so plainly visible throughout His Creation:

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress [Greek: hold back] the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools” (Rom. 1:18-22, NASB).

    This passage so fittingly describes the intellectually vain, but foolish, originators of the evolutionary theory, who found the existence of God, as presented by the Bible and theologians, to be so much superstition that they could neither understand nor accept. Yet, God thunders that the facts—the evidence seen throughout His Creation, on earth and in the heavens—leaves them “without excuse.” The ancients knowingly rejected clearly evident knowledge that unmistakably pointed to the existence of a God—and that He was the God of Creation. The same is true today. Why? Because so many will not “honor”—they refuse to obey—Him, when His existence and identity can be known!

    A little later in context, verse 28 of Romans 1 describes how God dealt with mankind collectively because it would not admit that Creation proved His existence. Notice: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.” The word “reprobate” means “void of judgment.”

    Humanity has been void of judgment on virtually all important matters. This is why the problems and troubles of all nations have only multiplied. But has all this led humanity to search out the true God from the false? Later in Romans, Paul answers the question and adds much to the picture of basic human nature when it comes to whether human beings will seek God: “There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way” (3:11-12). These verses reveal that there have been no exceptions in who chooses to seek God and stay in “the way”—His Way.

    to be continued...

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     February 12, 2008 7:13 AM

    In his letter to Timothy, the inspired Paul described mankind collectively as “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim. 3:7). This has certainly included the knowledge—the truth—of God Himself. God must reveal Himself to individuals or they cannot know Him (John 6:44, 65).

    What is written here is spiritual knowledge, unknown to all but a very few, and knowledge that you could not discover on your own. Ask yourself these questions: “Is the true God revealing Himself to me?”—and “Will I treasure this special, all-important knowledge?”

    Basic Honesty Required

    Let’s return to the problem facing those examining the trinity god, and whether it is the God of the Bible. Some who have accepted evolution have not been willing to turn to outright atheism. But, influenced by evolutionary thinking, modern theologians and religionists have not honestly explored the trinity god in light of the plain facts of history and Scripture. They have professed themselves to be Christians, meaning that they have wanted to appear to be followers of the God of Creation. Again, in the end, these have not been willing to face the facts about their “god.” They have not been willing to come to understanding of the true God—the living God!

    Then, in succession, millions of professing Christians, unwilling to explore the facts for themselves, follow such men. They remain duped by dishonest, seductive arguments designed by the god of this world to lead them to worship of himself. This is because, in their vanity (Rom. 1:22), they have foolishly rejected vital knowledge. The result has been that so many have unnecessarily become “darkened”—blinded—to the plain understanding of the true God.

    For God to require strict obedience to His first four commandments without explaining who and what He is would be tantamount to cruel and inhuman punishment. If God had given this instruction without carefully equipping His worshippers to be able to distinguish Him from all other gods, He would have been most unfair. This thread will fully equip you as God intended.

    When confronting the 450 prophets of Baal, who were seeking to lead Israel away from worship of the true God, the true prophet Elijah presented the people with the ultimate question, following it by describing life’s greatest choice—and the choice facing you in this book. Will your response mirror those who heard Elijah?

    “And Elijah came unto all the people [the Israelites], and said, How long halt you between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word” (1 Kgs. 18:21).

    Next we will take an extensive look at the history of the trinity doctrine and trinitarian god. Together with the remaining thread, it will prepare you—actually arm you—to answer what Israel would not.

    ANCIENT ROOTS OF THE TRINITY

    You have probably heard it said that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. To really unlearn all that is entailed regarding the trinity, one must examine how it developed—its history. We will covers the origin of the teaching over many thousands of years, even preceding the time of Christ.

    Some sections are written with attention to greater historic detail. This is because a full background is essential to the subject. It will be seen that theologians generally rely on humanly-devised reasoning, because they completely dismiss the crucial facts of history! This thread is loaded with the facts of history, bringing quote after quote from reliable and respected historians.

    This detail is presented so that the reader will be unable to miss the big picture here—one that you will see to be truly fascinating. Many of these introductory quotes bring important background about other things happening in the New Testament Church. These are essential to understand first, before examining the period in which the trinity gained acceptance. Put together, you will soon see that they make for absolutely compelling reading.

    It is vital that you carefully examine these many sources for the message that they contain. The trinity will be seen to have its roots almost entirely in philosophy and abstract metaphysics, based on nothing more than human reasoning. Remember the point made in the introduction, that elements of this book will be difficult or impossible to understand—and that this may be good. You may find yourself wondering, after just this single chapter, how anyone could possibly believe that the doctrine of the trinity is scriptural!

    to be continued...

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     February 13, 2008 7:45 AM

    Long before the Christian era, numerous variations of the trinity existed, and they were found in a host of pagan religions and mythologies. As with so many other pre-Christian traditional customs and practices, the revival of this doctrine in the Christian era was predictable. It was essential that followers be able to see Christianity—their “new” religion—in familiar terms.

    Triad deities (the worship of a three-in-one god) first appeared in ancient Egypt about three centuries after the Great Flood of Noah’s time. These Egyptian deities came to be worshiped as Osiris, Isis and Horus.

    Some facts of very early history: After the destruction of the Tower of Babel, Nimrod and his mother-wife Semiramis, the first rulers of Babylon, fled to Egypt. There, Nimrod (known as Ninus or Athothis, among numerous other names) shared rulership with his father Cush (Menes) in the first dynasty. After Nimrod’s death, Semiramis claimed his son Horus to have been Nimrod reincarnated. These three—Osiris (Nimrod), Isis (Semiramis) and Horus (the son)—came to be exalted as a triad of deities (Exploring Ancient History—The First 2500 Years, Schulz, ch. 11, 24).

    In Babylon, these same three were known as Ninas, Ishtar and Tammuz. With the passage of time, this triad became well-known in many nations. Even in ancient Rome, a triad of deities was worshipped—Jupiter, Fortuna and Mercury—bearing similarities with the above-mentioned triads.

    Virtually all ancient religions possessed deity “triads.” Notice: “Though it is usual to speak of the Semitic tribes as monotheistic; yet it is an undoubted fact that more or less all over the world the deities are in triads. This rule applies to eastern and western hemispheres, to north and south. Further, it is observed that, in some mystical way, the triad of three persons is one…applied to the trinities of all heathen religions” (Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, James Bonwick, p. 396, emphasis ours throughout).

    A fascinating example of this can be found in the ancient roots of Hinduism. After the 6th century B.C., Hinduism featured the three-in-one god (or triad) that became known as the Trimutri. Brahman consisted of (1) Brahma, the creator (2) Vishnu, the preserver and (3) Shiva, the destroyer (What the Great Religions Believe, Joseph Gaer, p. 25).

    Orthodox Christianity vs. Apostolic Christianity

    But how did the trinity develop within mainstream Christianity? Why were most professing believers receptive to the same schools of philosophy that had been rejected by the faithful Christians of the first century?

    Historian Edward Gibbon

    After the original apostles had died, contradictions in doctrine began to appear en masse, and Church history became lost. Historian Edward Gibbon, in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, candidly acknowledged, “…the scanty material of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us to dispel the cloud that hangs over the first age of the church.”

    For nearly a century after the events recorded in the book of Acts, we find church history to be virtually blank. In The Story of the Christian Church, Jesse Lyman Hurlbut calls this period the “Age of Shadows.” He writes, “…of all the periods in the church’s history, it is the one about which we know the least…For fifty years after St. Paul’s life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul.”

    From the New Testament, we find ample evidence of an apostasy having occurred, pulling believers away from the truth. Notice the many warnings about false apostles and a false movement that already existed in the first century and was threatening the Church:

    2 Thessalonians 2:7: “For the mystery of iniquity does already work…”

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15: “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

    1 John 4:1: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

    to be continued...

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     February 14, 2008 8:12 AM

    Jude 3: “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”

    At the very end of his life, the apostle John returned from exile and had to confront this growing apostasy (falling away from truth) in the 90s A.D. At that time, false leaders had gained control over congregations of the true Church in Asia Minor. The New Testament preserved the account of one such controversy:

    “I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, received us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he did, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither does he himself receive the brethren, and forbids them that would, and casts them out of the church” (3 John 9-10).

    Such occurrences must have been repeated many times in many congregations late in John’s life. And they continued during the entire ministry of Polycarp, John’s successor.

    Many Sources

    Secular history also shows how false leaders changed the direction of the Church and cast out the few brethren who remained loyal to the apostles’ original teachings. About A.D. 135, the Jerusalem-Pella congregation came under the control of an Italian ” by the name of Marcus. He persuaded the majority of the congregation to renounce the Ten Commandments, and only those brethren who did this were permitted admittance into Jerusalem by the Roman authorities.

    But there were a faithful few who refused to follow Marcus. Notice: “The crimes of heresy and schism were imputed to the obscure remnant of the Nazarenes which refused to accompany their Latin bishop…In a few years after the return of the church of Jerusalem, it became a matter of doubt and controversy whether a man who sincerely acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah, but who still continued to observe the law of Moses, could possibly hope for salvation…[the followers of Marcus] excluded their Judaizing brethren from the hope of salvation…[and from] the common offices of friendship, hospitality, and social life” (The Decline and Fall, Gibbon, ch. 15, p. 149).

    The remnant of the apostolic Church—those who were determined to adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles—were accused of “Judaizing.” This derogatory term implied that such a person sought to earn salvation by obeying God’s commandments and keeping His annual Sabbaths.

    Justin Martyr

    Prominent theologians, such as Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-167), could not reconcile Christ’s words in Matthew 19:17—“…if you will enter into life, keep the commandments”—with the widespread belief that no works of any kind were required for salvation. Justin Martyr from the beginning embraced another gospel (Gal. 1:6-7), and condemned as heretical everything observed by the Jews.

    The church that emerged in the early second century was dramatically different from the original first-century Church. This transformation was succinctly described by Church historian Mosheim: “Christian churches had scarcely been organized when men rose up, who not being contented with the simplicity and purity of that religion which the Apostles taught, attempted innovations, and fashioned religion according to their own liking” (Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 1).

    Yet that apostasy, which was part of an orchestrated movement, was called “orthodox”—while the small, remnant apostolic Church was suppressed, persecuted and forced into hiding.

    Robert Robinson, author of The History of Baptism, stated, “Toward the latter end of the second century, most of the churches assumed a new form, the first simplicity disappeared; and insensibly, as the old disciples retired to their graves, their children, along with new converts, both Jews and Gentiles, came forward and new-modeled the cause” (Eccl. Research, ch. 6, p. 51, 1792).

    to be continued...

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     February 15, 2008 7:04 AM

    Polycarp

    During the second century, the apostle Polycarp, who had been trained by John, had to confront this apostate movement: “The steady progress of the heretical movement in spite of all opposition was a cause of deep sorrow to Polycarp, so that in the last years of his life the words were constantly on his lips, ‘Oh good God, to what times hast thou spared me, that I must suffer such things!’” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., vol. 22, p. 22).

    Both Polycarp and his successor, Polycrates, witnessed the wholesale departure of organized Christianity from observing Passover on the 14th of the first month of the sacred calendar, to the observance of Easter, a pagan holiday. The few who held to the original teachings were called Quartodecimani. This faithful minority in Asia Minor, along with the Nazarenes of Syria, were the last holdouts of true Christianity in the eastern Mediterranean area of the Roman Empire (Ibid., vol. 8, pp. 828-829).

    Edward Gibbon sheds more light on this apostasy and its opposition to the original apostolic teachings. All of the apostates were steeped in the accepted philosophies of that time—Gnosticism in particular: “The Mosaic account of the creation and the fall of man was treated with profane derision by the Gnostics…The God of Israel was impiously represented by the Gnostics as being liable to passion and to error…”

    Gibbon explains the Gnostics’ techniques: “Acknowledging that the literal sense is repugnant to every principle of faith as well as reason, they deem themselves secure and invulnerable behind the ample veil of allegory, which they carefully spread over every tender part of the Mosaic dispensation.”

    He continued, “The Gnostics were distinguished as the most polite, the most learned, and the most wealthy of the Christian name; and that general appellation, which expressed a superiority of knowledge… assumed by their own pride…The Gnostics blended with the faith of Christ many sublime but obscure tenets, which they derived from oriental philosophy…” (Decline and Fall, ch. 15, pp. 150-151). We will examine Gnosticism in greater detail later in this chapter.

    While the visible church steadily gained preeminence, and as persecution increased, remnants of the true Church went underground. As a result, the “Christianity” of the second, third and fourth centuries had very little in common with the practices and beliefs of the first century Christians.

    The new converts of this “religion in transition” dismissed biblical authority, replacing it with what came to be viewed as “Orthodox” doctrine. They considered Greek philosophy and Gnosticism to be more palatable, more to their liking.

    “Christianity”—or the Bible?

    Now let’s look at a short overview of how philosophers and theologians disregarded biblical teaching and authority. It is important to note that the term “Christianity” used in the bullet points below refers to established orthodoxy as recognized in the Roman Empire, as opposed to the teachings of Christ and His apostles:

    • Christianity came to accept that the Father was directly involved as the Creator, rather than creating through Christ. The Bible clearly states that Christ (the Word) created all things (John 1:1-14; Col. 1:13-17).
    • Christianity came to accept that the Father was the God or Lord of the Old Testament. But the Bible shows that this personage was actually Christ (1 Cor. 10:1-4).
    • Christianity believed that many people had spoken with the Father (during the Old Testament era). Yet, Christ declared that no man had seen or heard God the Father (John 5:37). And, because the Father was unknown to the world, one of the purposes of Christ’s coming was to reveal Him (John 1:18, Luke 10:22).
    • Christianity believes that the Father and the Son are “one” by some form of a mystical hypostasis. However, the Bible says the Father and Son are “one” in the same sense that the Church (Greek: the “called out ones”) are “one” in the spirit of unity and purpose (John 17:11).

    To be continued...

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     February 16, 2008 10:10 AM

  • Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning monotheism—that God was one being. Yet, two distinct God Beings are identified in the prologue of the book of John (1:1-2). Likewise, Genesis 1:26 records a conversation between these two God Beings. Notice: “Let Us make man in Our image…” Here, the term “God” derives from the Hebrew Elohim (a plural term—actually a collective noun—similar to kingdom, family or church). Although there is one God Kingdom or Family, Scripture reveals that it currently consists of two Beings.

    The Jewish doctrine of monotheism derives from their misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord.” This passage is more accurately translated “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is Lord alone (or Lord only).” The verse is not talking about God as one Being—is not addressing the nature of God—but rather was instruction to Israel to not listen to other gods, but to listen to the true God aloneonly! Later we will discuss this more thoroughly.

  • Rather than the God Family being a closed loop trinity, as accepted by Christianity, this Family is set to expand through the many begotten sons of God yet to be born into it (John 1:11-12; Rom. 8:14, 191 John 3:1-2). Later we  will also cover in greater detail the awesome potential of human beings.

    Although Orthodox Christianity can and often does contradict the Bible, the Bible does not contradict itself.

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