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Reincarnation vs. Transmigration
Anonymous
8 years ago
I know that these terms are often used as synonyms, but personally I view reincarnation as always incarnating as human and transmigration as the possibility of incarnating as another species. I would like to find out which of these positions others in this group hold. I think that each species has its own unique character and destiny- I always have and will continue to incarnate as a human. Other opinions?
8 years ago

Hi James, it actually means the same thing...samsara, I think. I used to think that transmigration was when a comatose body was being discarded and that a soul who didn't want to experience infancy, but needed to experience further material world...would step into the body. So, basically a here and now type of thing.

As far as humans using an animal body? I think it can happen. Edgar Cayce told of the beginning where souls entered the animal-man as vehicles for experiencing the material world. A longing to 'be', I believed he called it.

I've read where the state of mind that you have at the time of your death is what propels the soul to the next incarnation.

There are some animals that I would find as an acceptable vehicle. There are certain countries that I would steer clear of if I were a dog or cat!

Love, Peace & Vegetarianism

PS My Granddaughter was putting the fear of God into me by claiming that plants are living things and that I was killing THEM!

Crikey! I can't win!

Reincarnation vs. Transmigration
8 years ago

Wow!!! What a great topic Green Man!!!

There is a slight difference between the two, though as you state, they are treated synonomously; transmigration is the soul moving into a body while reincarnation is being reborn into a new body. Thus, there is a similarity between the two, and yet a distinct difference. I must giggle a bit given the discourse on symbolic interactionism (thank you Melissa!); it comes down to that simple term meaning! Moving from one body to another is migration . . . just as it is with people moving from one place to another (sorta kinda! lol). While reincarnating is to be "born again;" it's easy to see how one can intermix the terms, and it's certainly easy to see how reincarnation is skewed in people's minds; particularly those who choose a different belief system.

If I could, I would transmigrate into the body of a killer whale just to play in the ocean the way they do; to facilitate interspecies communication! I am not so sure that I haven't been a whale of some type in another life; however, I hold to the meaning that one reincarnates within the body that they created their karmic debt in. In that sense, it relates to my  belief system, that of paganism. =)

Language is a difficult topic; there are so many different languages!!! And the meanings of the words utilised in a particular language is what changes its application from one culture to another; it's also what can make studying a different culture difficult as within the English language there are not that many words that actually express the meanings of words within that language. Just one small reason why translation is difficult.

I would agree with you James, that there is a difference between the two; that does not, however, negate that another such as Matahari do not take that "other" meaning. It does mean that there is room for discussion . . . just as we are sharing here, and thus reaching some understanding, which ultimately leads to our greatest desire: PEACE!

Orca spirit always,

Maureen

8 years ago

 Sounds good to me, Maureen.

What do you think about possession...or channeling? Would that be transmigration?

Do the Orca's have the same kind of intelligence as the Dolphins?

Love & Peace

8 years ago

According to Vedic scriptures there are to energies, material and spiritual. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna said.
: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
: Besides these, O mighty-armed , there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution. chapter 7 text 4 through 6.
It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntι, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father. chapter 14 text 4
So the question is am I made of earth, or water, or fire, or air. When we refer to my body, do we say me body or my body. We say my body, because we are not this body made of material elements. We are spirit.
Lord Krishna explains in chapter 2 of the Gita the nature of the soul.
: That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.

: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
: As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

:The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.
: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
: As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.


Lord Krishna said
: That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.
This verse more clearly explains the real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body. Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body: it is consciousness. Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness. This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Svetasvatara (5.9) confirms this:
balagra-sata-bhagasya
satadha kalpitasya ca
bhago jivah vijneyah
sa canantyaya kalpate

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." Similarly the same version is stated:

[Cc. 19.140]
"There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair."
Therefore, the individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms, and such atoms are innumerable. This very small spiritual spark is the basic principle of the material body, and the influence of such a spiritual spark is spread all over the body as the influence of the active principle of some medicine spreads throughout the
body. This current of the spirit soul is felt all over the body as consciousness, and that is the proof of the presence of the soul. Any layman can understand that the material body minus consciousness is a dead body, and this consciousness cannot be revived in the body
by any means of material administration. Therefore, consciousness is not due to any amount of material combination, but to the spirit soul. In the Mundaka (3.1.9) the
measurement of the atomic spirit soul is further explained:

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air(prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When
the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

8 years ago
 Chapter 13. Nature, the Enjoyer, and Consciousness

TEXT 22

purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango 'sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

SYNONYMS

purusah--the living entity; prakrti-sthah--being situated in the material energy; hi--certainly; bhunkte--enjoys; prakrti-jan--produced by the material nature; gunan--modes of nature; karanam--cause; guna-sangah--association with the modes of nature; asya--of the living entity; sat-asat--good and bad; yoni--species of life; janmasu--birth.

TRANSLATION

The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species.

PURPORT

This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature.
How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Krsna consciousness. Unless one is situated in Krsna consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Krsna. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal blissful life.

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8 years ago

BG 15.7: The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

BG 15.8: The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another.

BG 15.9: The living entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of ear, eye, tongue, nose and sense of touch, which are grouped about the mind. He thus enjoys a particular set of sense objects.

8 years ago

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.8

śarīraḿ yad avānoti

yac cāy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ

gṛhītvaitāni saḿyāti

vāyur gandhān ivāśayāt

SYNONYMS

śarīram — the body; yat — as; avānoti — gets; yat — as; ca api — also; utkrāmati — gives up; īśvaraḥ — the lord of the body; gṛhītvā — taking; etāni — all these; saḿyāti — goes away; vāyuḥ — the air; gandhān — smells; iva — like; āśayāt — from their source.

TRANSLATION

The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another.

PURPORT

Here the living entity is described as īśvara, the controller of his own body. If he likes, he can change his body to a higher grade, and if he likes he can move to a lower class. Minute independence is there. The change his body undergoes depends upon him. At the time of death, the consciousness he has created will carry him on to the next type of body. If he has made his consciousness like that of a cat or dog, he is sure to change to a cat's or dog's body. And if he has fixed his consciousness on godly qualities, he will change into the form of a demigod. And if he is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will be transferred to Kṛṣṇaloka in the spiritual world and will associate with Kṛṣṇa. It is a false claim that after the annihilation of this body everything is finished. The individual soul is transmigrating from one body to another, and his present body and present activities are the background of his next body. One gets a different body according to karma, and he has to quit this body in due course. It is stated here that the subtle body, which carries the conception of the next body, develops another body in the next life. This process of transmigrating from one body to another and struggling while in the body is called karṣati, or struggle for existence.

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Reincarnation vs. Transmigration
8 years ago

I love coming to this page! This discourse is so outstanding!!!

Mata, I believe in possession, and I believe in channeling; as to the former, I don't think it occurs all that often, unless it's within ritual and one is possessed with the spirit of animal, so in that sense, it's more akin to ritual possession that bonds with nature (many Native Americans believe the same). As to the latter, I think one need be careful relative to those who channel. One of my favorite shows is "Most Haunted;" they have some good channelers there . . . and then there are times that I have to "scoff!"

Both, and any, methods of going beyond one's body is something I accept; I have astral traveled, and certainly I have friends that I am so close with that when I am thinking of them they "hear" me and usually call; this is the same with my hubby and my daughter. I also can "hear" those who call me, particularly if it's during times of "trouble," or need . . . need is a much better word! lol

As Nabahala has pointed out, the BG states many things about transmigration and/or reincarnation. Somewhat too strict for me, but then that's just me!!! When we are dealing with this abilities to send our own energies out to others, or utilise it with good intentions, that is what matters. Negative begets negative, and positive begets positive in my view.

As to the orca, they are dolphins!!! Many don't realise this, however they are THE largest of the dolphin family, which most likely speaks to their intelligence; most know just how intelligent dolphins are (don't they?). They are also the top predator in the world's oceans (and are found in all oceans of the world); thus, when we realise this . . . they are equal to humans. Actually, I would posit that they are more intelligent than we are, given how their society is structured, and the ways in which they bond. The downside is that they are the indicator species for the condition of our oceans and as such, tell us how things are going. Given that the community I study has been listed as endangered, primarily due to bioaccumulation of toxins (PCBs, PBDEs [fire retardants], dioxins and furons) it does not bode well.

It essentially means that the entire food chain is contaminated!!! When I think about people eating salmon, I just want to cry as that is their primary prey (residents and offshores); for the transients who eat other marine mammals, they are also contaminated given that these build up in the fatty tissue and do not leave it, impacting the reproductive system, the immune system and more. Very sad; and somewhat silly of us to think that we needn't get control over the pollutants we pour into our oceans!!!

I am preparing to write a paper with a professor of mine (and I am very excited as one doesn't often get that opportunity to co-publish!!!) about animism and negotiation. Accepting that other species have intelligence, feelings, etc. is anthromorphic and usually unacceptable. However, that too is changing. It seems that we are coming to the proper realisations of our place in the world . . . and the fact that what we do has an impact on the remainder of the species, and the overall planet. Do you think? Or am I merely dreaming?

Hugz, peace and orca spirit,

Maureen

8 years ago

Hi Mahabala, thank you for the scriptures. I got my new book...'Bhagavad Gita As It Is', a couple of days ago. It's beautiful, but I haven't even read beyond the introduction yet. It's really like learning a new language, I wish that I knew the pronunciations of some of the words and where the accent should go. 

The end of the introduction says to give up all varieties of religiousness and just surrender unto Krsna and he will protect you from sinful reactions and fear.

I have a silly question...why do pictures denote Krsna with blue skin?

Love & Peace

8 years ago

Maureen, I was in the middle of a response to you at your thread when my Windows shut me down, it was odd. I lost my train of thought...so just went to bed. I didn't get home from work until after midnight. That's why I keep late hours, then sleep til nearly noon.

Right now, the sunny day beckons me, so, my G-daughter and I are taking my dog, Zen for a walk along the river.

I think that it's sad that humans are supposed to be intelligent, yet look at what we are doing to the eco-system!

Back at cha later,

Love & Peace 

8 years ago

Here is a discription by Lord Brahma the first created being in the universe in his prayers to the Lord, the Brahma samhita

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.30

veṇuḿ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣam-

barhāvataḿsam asitāmbuda-sundarāńgam

kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaḿ

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

SYNONYMS

veṇum — the flute; kvaṇantam — playing; aravinda-dala — (like) lotus petals; āyata — blooming; akṣam — whose eyes; barha — a peacock's feather; avataḿsam — whose ornament on the head; asita-ambuda — (tinged with the hue of) blue clouds; sundara — beautiful; ańgam — whose figure; kandarpa — of Cupids; koṭi — millions; kamanīya — charming; viśeṣa — unique; śobham — whose loveliness; govindam — Govinda; ādi-puruṣam — the original person; tam — Him; aham — I; bhajāmi — worship.

TRANSLATION

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of Cupids.

PURPORT

The matchless beauty of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord of Goloka, is being described. Kṛṣṇa, the all-pervading cognition, has a spiritual form of His own. The form of Kṛṣṇa is not a fanciful creation of imagination formed after visualizing the beautiful things of the world. What Brahmā saw in his ecstatic trance of pure devotion, is being described. Kṛṣṇa is engaged in playing upon His flute. That flute by his enchanting musical sound attracts the hearts of all living beings. Just as a lotus petal produces a pleasant sight, so the two beautiful eyes of Kṛṣṇa who causes the manifestation of our spiritual vision, display the unlimited splendor and beauty of His moonlike face. The loveliness that adorns His head with peacock feather figures, the corresponding feature of the spiritual beauty of Kṛṣṇa. Just as a mass of blue clouds offers a specifically soothing, pleasant view, the complexion of Kṛṣṇa is analogously tinged with a spiritual dark-blue color. The beauty and loveliness of Kṛṣṇa is far more enchanting that that of Cupid multiplied a millionfold.

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8 years ago

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.28.13

prasanna-vadanāmbhojaḿ

padma-garbhāruṇekṣaṇam

nīlotpala-dala-śyāmaḿ

śańkha-cakra-gadā-dharam

SYNONYMS

prasanna — cheerful; vadana — countenance; ambhojam — lotuslike; padma-garbha — the interior of a lotus; aruṇa — ruddy; īkṣaṇam — with eyes; nīla-utpala — blue lotus; dala — petals; śyāmam — swarthy; śańkha — conch; cakra — discus; gadā — club; dharam — bearing.

TRANSLATION

The Supreme Personality of Godhead has a cheerful, lotuslike countenance with ruddy eyes like the interior of a lotus and a swarthy body like the petals of a blue lotus. He bears a conch, discus and mace in three of His hands.

PURPORT

It is definitely recommended herein that one concentrate his mind upon the form of Viṣṇu. There are twelve different forms of Viṣṇu, which are described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya. One cannot concentrate his mind on anything void or impersonal; the mind should be fixed on the personal form of the Lord, whose attitude is cheerful, as described in this verse. Bhagavad-gītā states that meditation on the impersonal or void features is very troublesome to the meditator. Those who are attached to the impersonal or void features of meditation have to undergo a difficult process because we are not accustomed to concentrating our minds upon anything impersonal. Actually such concentration is not even possible. Bhagavad-gītā also confirms that one should concentrate his mind on the personality of Godhead.

The color of the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is described here as nīlotpala-dala, meaning that it is like that of a lotus flower with petals tinted blue and white. People always ask why Kṛṣṇa is blue. The color of the Lord has not been imagined by an artist. It is described in authoritative scripture. In the Brahma-saḿhitā also, the color of Kṛṣṇa's body is compared to that of a bluish cloud. The color of the Lord is not poetical imagination. There are authoritative descriptions in the Brahma-saḿhitā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā and many of the purāṇas of the Lord's body, His weapons and all other paraphernalia. The Lord's appearance is described here as padma-garbhāruṇekṣaṇam. His eyes resemble the inside of a lotus flower, and in His four hands He holds the four symbols: conchshell, discus, mace and lotus.

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8 years ago

Mata,

The inner visuals that have made the most effect, is that of our Lord, with a resonant -night-sky type blue, aura.  This is the 'atmosphere' of blue, that I most see of His countenance.  It is truly a 'heavenly' perception - more than 3-D, quite difficult to describe!

OM Shanti

Reincarnation vs. Transmigration
8 years ago

Greetings Mata,

No worries! Crazy schedules are what they are; and frustration must be there . . . when we lose something we are writing and then the train of thought! Aaarrrggghhh! =)

I shall look forward to your responses when you come back from your lovely walk with Zen and your granddaughter! =)

Cheers,

Maureen

8 years ago

Hello, Dear friends! At last...time to respond, both child and dog are napping. First...I love the fact that Krsna is blue...and a lovely shade it is, too! His countenance is quite beautiful. I wish I were that shade of blue.

Peace and calm is deemed as the color blue, and blue is also the color to represent royalty, so it's quite fitting.

Holly, thank you for joining in, I am very curious as to how you have seen the aura? From viewing pictures of Krsna? Don't you have to be in a spiritual body to see the Krsna?

I printed out the page with the Sanskrit Pronunciation guide. Thank you for the links Mahabala, you are most helpful and knowledgeable!

The part that you posted about the spirit being the size of an atom...

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air(prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When
the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

I love that the soul is situated in the heart...the Ancient Egyptians believed that also...and completely removed the brain when embalming... who needs a brain when you have a heart and soul?

I've also been advised that the Upanisad is required reading, so I'll be looking for that book next.

Mahabala, after reading Text 18 through 21... do you think that the cultures that we have here on the Earth are from groups of souls who have lived on other planets...except the higher realm of planets. I also have a feeling about the orbs that I have seen in photographs that I've taken...these are souls who do not have to materialize...they fly around in the air, curiously watchful. Could they be from Krsna's abode?

Love & Peace

8 years ago

"Don't you have to be in a spiritual body to see the Krsna?"

We are all in spiritual bodies - we just need to open our spiritual eyes...

OM Shanti

8 years ago

Oh, I thought that we had to be free of the material body completely.

I know that God is in everything. I've tried to see auras...no such luck. Must have a block somewhere.

Love & Peace

8 years ago
We all have a spiritual form, it is just covered by the material bodies.