DEVELOPING: A mass shooting at Ft. Hood military post in Texas has left at least 7 dead and 20 wounded and one suspected gunman is on the loose, officials told Fox News.

A massive manhunt was under way for the suspect at large, Fox News confirmed. One person was in custody. The New York Post said that there were two shooters at the Army post massacre; other reports said there were three. The attack apparently happened at Ft. Hood's Soldier Readiness Center. Army officials didn't know whether the victims were civilians or military personnel. Other media reports said the number of victims remained unclear. The men were reportedly dressed in Army fatigues, but military officials couldn't confirm that they were Army personnel.

The base and area schools were on lockdown after the mass shooting, and all those on the Army post were asked to gather for a head count. The FBI was en route to Ft. Hood to provide assistance. There have been several previous deadly incidents at Ft. Hood, including a shooting of one soldier by another at a party in July; a rape and fatal shooting of an Army medic at her apartment near the post 11 years ago; and the murder-suicide of a lieutenant by a soldier in September 2008.

Link for more live coverage

*******************************************************

We seem to be at war with ourselves sometimes

This post was modified from its original form on 05 Nov, 13:17

I agree, Mary...

At times, we seem to be at war with ourselves.

This is so sad; so horrible.

Knate, I think David posted about this at the same time I did.  Perhaps you should consolidate?

Already working on it, Mary. Just contacted David. 

This is David Daniels' post....

Reports are coming in that there has been a shooting at the Fort Hood, Texas military complex. 7 are reported dead, 21 injured. Local TV station KXXV reports:

We've learned an incident has taken place at the sports dome, now known as the soldier readiness area.... Temple ISD Schools Have Been locked down as part of this incident. The district's spokeswoman tells News Channel 25 the district is on soft lockdown.

MSNBC is reporting that one suspect is in custody, and one is still on the loose. Additional reports have come in that a second suspect is on the loose on the military base, but that has not been confirmed at this time. According to reports, the suspects were in military uniform. More details from MSNBC:

The official would not give [the suspect's] name nor additional details. It was unknown whether victims are soldiers or civilians. One gunman was reportedly in custody and another was on the loose, NBC News said. A third shooter may be involved, according to NBC News affiliate KCEN, which said the person had opened fire on the SWAT team at the base.

The Fort Hood military base is huge -- home to 4,929 active duty officers, 45,414 enlisted and nearly 9,000 civilian employees. The early word from MSNBC is that this is all military, and no civilians were involved. But that has not been confirmed.

From the AP:

An Army spokesman at the Pentagon says the shootings began about 1:30 p.m. Thursday at a personnel and medical processing center at Fort Hood....

Banks says the second incident took place at a theater on the sprawling base.

 

He says it is too soon to tell whether there is any link to battle stress or repeated deployments. The Army is suffering a record high suicide rate and other signs of stress from fighting two wars.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/05/fort-hood-shootings-7-dea_n_347366.html

I'm glad I don't live near Fort Hood. But I am puzzled by this line:

"The Army is suffering a record high suicide rate and other signs of stress from fighting two wars."

What does that have to do with shootings at Fort Hood? The shootings at various high schools, including Columbine High School in April 1999, were not war related.

Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison said the shooting was a terrible tragedy for all of the military families affected.

There have been several previous deadly incidents at Ft. Hood, including a shooting of one soldier by another at a party in July; a rape and fatal shooting of an Army medic at her apartment near the post 11 years ago; and the murder-suicide of a lieutenant by a soldier in September 2008.

Weren't the shooters just exercising their second amendment rights?

Apparently there was a graduation ceremony going on and some of the ways into Fort Hood are not run by the military (whatever that means) .... Terrorist attack perhaps? Seems odd that two or three American soldiers would be running around killing other American soldiers.

What a damn shame! My heart goes out to the families involved and to your nation who is getting smacked again by a terrible tragedy no matter who is beind it. My heart is with you my American friends ....

Dear Dale,

Ft Hood is where they send soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome, for treatment - so that may be a factor involved in this tragedy.

Dear Northern,

I hope all our hearts and prayers go out to the families of those killed and to all those who were wounded in this attack.

Terrorist attack by whom, Northern?

Lt. Gen. Robert W. Cone, the commanding officer at Fort Hood, the largest active military installation in the country, said the base was in lockdown as military authorities, with the help of the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigate the rampage.

“This was a terrible tragedy,” said General Cone, speaking at a news conference Thursday afternoon. “Stunning.”’

An Army spokesman, Gary Tallman, said that the dead gunman was an Army major. A law enforcement official identified the him as Malik Nadal Hassan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06forthood.html

What does that have to do with shootings at Fort Hood? The shootings at various high schools, including Columbine High School in April 1999, were not war related. ~Dale

Dale, considering the inordinate rotation of our troops in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 6 and 8 years and the high numbers of our sons and daughters suffering from PSD, the high rate of suicide among our troops, it raises the likelihood of the shootings having to do with someone having been driven insane by alot.  That's not to say that is the reason for this mass-murder, but it's certainly a consideration.

I have said it before and I'll say it again- the fact that these wars are unjustified has to screw with our troops psyche.  Our soldiers are willing to risk their life defending their country, their home, their families, but I believe they know in their hearts that's not what they are being called upon to do.  It's a whole different set of priorities when they are sent to war and kill 100's of thousands of innocent people for essentially no reason - which is why so many hold on tight to the premise that they are there to 'help the people' in those two countries instead of to 'protect and defend America' - their sanity depends on it for so many of our beloved sons and daughters.  God/dess bless them all.

President Obama, bring them home.

I couldn't agree with you more, Katii.

Fort Hood is the largest U.S. military installations in the world by size, and on any given day, it can be home to at least 25,000 to 30,000 people, according to an Army spokesman at the Pentagon.



The post also houses the families of service members and other civilians. Fort Hood operates a number of programs to help soldiers assimilate to life at home. One such program -- called the Warrior Stress Reset Program -- is "designed to help address those common and normal reactions to war experiences," says a military Web site.

"It is well documented that participation in a major conflict ... has a way of leaving its mark on the psyche of our soldiers," the Web site reads.

The program lasts three weeks and provides counseling and treatment.

They are saying it was Major who was to be redeployed and was very vocal especially lately about his unwillingness to be deployed.  They also have two other military members in custody based on eyewitness reports of the events that took place.

I will keep all those who perished and were hurt and their families in my thoughts. No matter who you are or how you feel about the military this is a tragic event and very sad for those directly affected.

I hope this is not our own soldiers gone crazy or somethnig. IMO it would be better if it was a terrorist attack.

"Better"?

What?

I would suggest that the Columbine High School shooting incident was itself an act of domestic terrorism. And it was two American high school students that did it.

And what about Timothy McVeigh, a former American soldier, and the Oklahoma City bombing he committed?

We have always had home grown terrorism. The Ku Klux Klan made a hobby of it in the years following the Civil War too.

The officer, the shooter, Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, was later shot and killed by security personnel on the base.

Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan?

An Arab? Oh boy, that's going to generate a backlash! Now every Arab or every Muslim in the U S military will be under suspicion.

I don't understand why he was even in the military. He didn't want to be deployed. He thought the Muslims were justified in killing us. I know he was a Muslim but that doesn't mean you can not do your duty if you're ordered to deploy. Apparently he was under investigation so we should learn more.

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army major firing two handguns killed 11 people and wounded 31 others in a shooting rampage on Thursday at Fort Hood base in Texas, a prime point of deployment for U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Army said the gunman was killed. U.S. broadcast media identified him as Major Malik Nidal Hasan, and said he was a psychiatrist who was facing an upcoming deployment to Iraq.

U.S. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas told FOX news: "I do know that he has been known to have told people that he was upset about going (to Iraq)." U.S. military officials say the shooter's motives were still unclear.

There will be a backlash against Muslims over this.  As if all Muslims are guilty for the crimes of one person who happens to be Muslim?

Murders, suicides and rapes of US soldiers committed by US soldiers has increased significantly over the past 6 or 7 years.  Too many soldiers have PTSD, and although not every US soldier who has perpetrated a crime against other US soldiers has PTSD, there seems to be a correlation.

Okay, guys. Exactly how do we know he was a Muslim?

Where did it say he was a Muslim?

Muslims are the new Jews.  They are blamed for everything.  Most of you know that I was married to a Pakistani Muslim.  I saw bigotry time and time again.  And then, of course, the fact that I am Jewish confused everyone.  They couldn't believe that a Muslim and Jew could be married and love one another.

People are people.

He was a Muslim, Christian; not because of his name, but because he was Muslim.

Okay, I've read all the stories and I haven't seen any mention of his religion. Again, where did it say he was Muslim?

Show me a link.

That's true, Elizabeth.

The fact that this Major was a Muslim should have no bearing on other Muslims - but you know it will.  Just like it shouldn't matter if he was a she, or he was black or brown or green, or a Republican or a Democrat.

But we know what is coming next because, as you say, Elizabeth: "Muslims are the new Jews. They are blamed for everything."

Watch FOX News, I predict, to see the backlash begin.

This truly sucks.

Christian, please read the news reports.

He was a psychiatrist, an Army Major, a specialist in dealing in combat stress, and he opposed his deployment to the Middle East, to a war zone.

He was a US soldier; not a foreign terrorist.

John Carney|Nov. 5, 2009, 6:29 PM | 2,690 |1

The suspected gunman in the Fort Hood shooting has been identified as Major Malik Nadal Hasan. He was killed and two other suspects have been apprehended, according to Army Spokesman Lt. General Robert W. Cone.

Don't miss: Tweets from Fort Hood >

A defense official speaking on condition of anonymity to the AP says Hasan was a mental health professional — an Army psychologist or psychiatrist. He recently trained at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

There are unconfirmed reports that Major Hasan was a convert to Islam and originally from Virginia. He was reportedly scheduled to deploy to either Iraq or Afghanistan and was unhappy about it.

It goes without saying that the fact that the shooter was a Muslim will turn this into a gigantic story.

Picture via Twitter user Misstearah, a member of the army, who Tweeted: "The poor guy that got shot in the balls. Gen Cone is reporting right now. I've been standing next to h..."

His cousin was on FOX news and said he was always a Muslim. He also said he was a "good American;" a rather strange thing to say. Original reports said he was a convert but that apparently isn't true. A colonel who worked with Hasan said he was upset with Obama for the wars overseas.

At given times certain groups were responsible for terrorism. In recent times 99.9% of terrorism is related to Islam. Even Muslims against Muslims. Of course, 99.999% of Muslims are not terrorists. This Islam component is now a world wide phenomenon. I don’t see things getting better.

I'm aware that he was a US soldier. That's the point I was trying to make. His religion, if any, is irrelevant.

Actually his religion appears to be relevent according to things he said.

The point I was making, Christian, and I said it clearly a few times already:  His religion had nothing to do with it - but there will be a backlash because bigots will jump on this.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5919-Norfolk-Crime-Examiner~y2009m11d5-Muslim-Army-officer-identified-as-shooter-in-Fort-Hood-massacre

In what way does religion factor into this? You guys sure are jumping all over this guy's religion in ways that I never see you jump when it's some other soldier doing the murdering.

The issue is that although his religion is irrelevant, there are are many people for whom it will be very relevant - those who want to blame the world's ills on Islam and terrorism.

Dear Christian,

Already, all over the internet, the attacks on Muslims have begun.

This is truly disgusting.

Islam and Muslims are not responsible for his crimes! 

People of all religions do things based on religion. Hasan said that people of Muslim faith should rise up. That sounds suspicious. If it's a fact, I don't see why we can't discuss it. Agreed there's a lot to learn here and things we say may prove to be incorrect; however, this is an open discussion, not a court of law.

Personally, it is immaterial to me what his religion was - he was obviously a very disturbed individual, and his actions have caused a significant loss of life and a lot of damage to the families of those who were killed and injured.

Don't accuse "you guys,"  as if all of us are saying the same thing, Christian when most of us are not attacking him because he was a Muslim.

Even if he said that Muslims should rise up - IF his actions are in any way related to being a Muslim, they are the result of a perverted fundamentalist interpretation of Islam, not of Islam itself.

Also, where the the figure that 99.9% of recent terrorism is related to Islam come from?

Yeah - I'm not one of you guys - you guys implies a monolithic reaction, which is not inaccurate...

Dan, I haven't seen that quote. Do you have a link to that one?

But I would say it this way, IMO, Islam and the world's Muslims are not responsible for the fact that some people who call themselves Muslims are "insane."  Any more than Jesus and Christianity are responsible when a so-called Christian commits mass murder.  And there are plenty of so-called Christian mass murderers.

Unfortunately, some people commit the most heinous acts in the name of their interpretation of religion.

Are you TRYING to get yourself banned from here?

I wasn't accusing everone. I'm fully aware that there are people here who know better but there are also people here who don't.

Even if he did kill people for what he though were religious reasons, the religion is still not to blame.

Amazing, too, is the outrage by some over that guy killing US soldiers without any outrage shown by the same people whenever US soldiers kill ten times as many innocent civilians. Maybe because the innocent civilians are mostly Muslim, so they don't count?

That's exactly what I am saying and what Elizabeth is saying: His religion, no matter what it is, is not responsible for the killings or any of his actions.  He, alone, is responsible.

Thank you Knate

Knate,

I don't have a link for the "muslims should rise up" quote. I heard it on FOX. They interviewed a colonel who worked with him and the colonel said that. They also interviewed Hasan's cousin who said he was being harassed for his views. I'm assuming these people are who they say they.

I do agree that one has to be careful this early making judgements without keeping an open mind.

Always a good idea to be open-minded...

Do you suppose it's human nature to jump to conclusions..

FOX News (and CNN) said the same thing about the Oklahoma bombings - that there were "early reports" about how this "might have been the work of Muslim terrorists." Of course, that's what I believed when I saw the first reports and that's what I started telling people who were asking. I actually said to people who asked, "They think it's Muslim terrorists again" based on what I saw on TV only minutes after the bombing occured. Of course we all know better now - that the Oklahoma bombings were committed by Timothy McVeigh, ex-US army and Roman Catholic.

I've been very leery about trusting early news reports ever since, especially those from douchebags like FOX who only live to sow the seeds of fear, bigotry and mistrust.

Dan,

I think you and I are both concerned about the possibility of a backlash against innocent people. Just as we're both concerned about getting the truth of what happened.

It does seem to be confirmed that he was very upset with his imminent deployment into the war zones of Iraq or Afghanistan.

Already, it seems, there are eleven or twelve people confirmed dead - including the police officer who shot the shooter - and maybe 31 people wounded. This is a tragedy.

I want the news to tell us the names of those who were killed and wounded so we can all say our words and prayers for them, their families and their loved ones.

I feel no sympathy for the killer - but I do hope no one tries to take out their anger on his friends and family - or on anyone they think is connected to him by ethnicity or religion or anything.

This is a time for mourning; not for more violence.

"This is a time for mourning; not for more violence."

Yes.

Yes - I agree

Dear Christian,

I think quite a bit about one point you raised.

It is natural for people, IMO, to mourn and think first or only about those who are close to us, by ethnicity, by national identity, by language and religion.  All people do that.  And it does mean we seem to have not the same empathy or understanding when others - far distant in culture - who also are killed and maimed and their lives destroyed.

Hopefully, the day will arrive when all people will react the same way, whether the person attacked and killed is their son or daughter - or whether it is someone, a stranger, half a world away, living in a "foreign" land.  Hopefully, the day will arrive when we learn we are all sisters and brothers in the same family - and we stop the senseless violence, hate and destruction of war.

The shooter is still alive - he was wounded and not killed ....

There was a big thought after 911 that Americans would backlash against Muslims - and though there was a bit of it - I don't remember that is added up to much .... this one man does not represent all Muslims - he did not want to go to war but as a shrink (can't spell the other word) he would have been there without a gun?

The military just had a press conference, as Northern just stated the shooter is alive and in stable condition.  The woman civilian police officer (who works for the Department of Military) who shot the suspect is also still alive.  No reports as to her condition beyond that.  They did not discuss any reasoning for the attack or anything about the shooter other than his name and rank.  There are no other shooters involved according to their investigation to date.

They are now trying to contact families and once that is done we will find out the names of the dead.  May they rest in peace and may their families find peace.

"he did not want to go to war but as a shrink (can't spell the other word) he would have been there without a gun?"

The army does have conscientious objector status too. Either way he wouldn't have to fight. He clearly had problems.

(CNN) -- Before making judgments about the shootings at Fort Hood, a thorough investigation needs to take place, Sen. John Cornyn of Texas said Thursday.

"It is imperative that we take the time to gather all the facts, as it would be irresponsible to be the source of rumors or inaccurate information regarding such a horrific event," Cornyn said in a statement.

"Once we have ascertained all the facts, working with our military leaders and law enforcement officials on the ground, we can determine what exactly happened at Fort Hood today and how to prevent something like this from ever happening again," he said.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, shot and killed 11 soldiers and one civilian before being killed, officials said. Thirty people were wounded, officials at the Army base said. A federal official said Hasan is a U.S. citizen of Jordanian descent.

Cornyn, a Republican, said people should not jump to conclusions about what happened and why.

"We do not yet have these details," the statement said.

President Obama, who was speaking at a conference in Washington, said his administration "will make sure that we get answers to every single question about this horrible incident."

He asked Americans to keep the soldiers and families of Fort Hood in the thoughts and prayers.

Former President George W. Bush, who was governor of Texas from 1995 to 2000 and lives in Crawford about 20 miles from the post, expressed his family's sorrow.

"I was saddened to learn of the tragic incident at Fort Hood. Laura and I are keeping the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers during this difficult time," he said.

Two prominent Muslim organizations condemned the shootings. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, based in Washington, said there was no reason for such violence.

"We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law," a statement from the organization said. "No political or religious ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence."

The Muslim Public Affairs Council offered its sympathy to the victims and their families.

"MPAC and the Muslim American community unequivocally condemn this heinous incident," said a statement from the Los Angeles, California, based group. "Our entire organization extends its heartfelt condolences to the families of those killed as well as to those wounded and their loved ones."

The group said it was working with law enforcement and government officials.

"American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured," the statement said.

The Secretary of the Army said that while an investigation will come, the well-being of his soldiers was the Army's first concern.

"This is a terrible tragedy that we will know more about in the coming days. For now, our focus is squarely on taking care of our soldiers and their families," said John M. McHugh in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those who have been killed and wounded. The leadership at Fort Hood is marshalling the medical support and counselors necessary to take care of our soldiers and their families and to notify the next of kin."

Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas said her heart went out to the people affected by the violence.

"Our dedicated military personnel have sacrificed so much in service to our country, and it sickens me that the men and women of Fort Hood have been subjected to this senseless, random violence," said Hutchison, a Republican.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry said the flags of his state would fly at half staff through Sunday.

I just read that Nidal Malik Hasan was a graduate of Virginia Tech.

There's some serendipity for you.

In fairness to religion (any religion), you can not blame religion for the acts of extremists and crazies. It's just not fair to do so. Even if it turns out this man did do it on behalf of what he believed his religion called for, he was mistaken.

I think more of the story will come out over the days so I will not speculate on what his motivation was.

I only wish for these brave Americans who perished to rest in peace and that those they love will find peace once again. For the injured my thoughts are with you for a speedy and complete recovery.

I don't think it is in anyone's interest to make light of such a horribly sad situation or to pass blame on anyone or any religion.  Respect for those who perished and those who loved them should be the first call of order.

   God Bless America.........

It's just a coincidence Christian. I've been writing about suicide where I followed the VA Tech incident. Even though this guy is still living it sounds like he was being deployed to the war zone but there was also a bad performance report that I heard was included in the situation. From my experiences a suicidal person is full of anger cause of not being heard. I'd guess he was being railroaded to the war zone and it was nothing he did to cause that yet I'm thinking this was his response to that because he didn't know where to turn for help. It's a loss of hope IMO.

Yes, God bless America. Only America.

No one else.

Christian, America has just suffered a real tragedy and this thread is about a tragedy that has happened today in that country .... This is not about anything else and I find your comments totally inappropriate and out of line given the situation.

As well your little piece of artwork is insulting to my country where you are living and taking advantage of all the social programs we have here - I will take issue with you on that and ask one of the site hosts to please remove what he has just posted - it is not funny and it again is inappropriate for this thread. 

This post was modified from its original form on 05 Nov, 21:13

This post was modified from its original form on 05 Nov, 21:15

So then you agree that God should only bless America and not Canada or any other country on the planet or any other part of the universe?

That may explain why God let Marc Lepine shoot and kill 14 women at L'École Polytechnique in Montréal, Québec back in 1989.

God was busy blessing America.

What a terrible, terrible thing to happen. I just heard on British news that 16 people are dead. Very, very, very sad.

Is he a Muslim? Is he not a Muslim? I don't know. He is obviously deeply disturbed. Probably doesn't matter much either way if you have just been blown into the next world. 

Christian - Suzanne didn't say G-d only bless America.  You are making an assumption that isn't based on anything.

He is a Muslim Lynn but I do not think that has anything to do with what happened. Time must be given to this for all the story to come out ....

Xian is so simplistic....

WASHINGTON – His name appears on radical Internet postings. A fellow officer says he fought his deployment to Iraq and argued with soldiers who supported U.S. wars. He required counseling as a medical student because of problems with patients.

There are many unknowns about Nidal Malik Hasan, the man authorities say is responsible for the worst mass killing on a U.S. military base. Most of all, his motive. But details of his life and mindset, emerging from official sources and personal acquaintances, are troubling.

For six years before reporting for duty at Fort Hood, Texas, in July, the 39-year-old Army major worked at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center pursuing his career in psychiatry, as an intern, a resident and, last year, a fellow in disaster and preventive psychiatry. He received his medical degree from the military's Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., in 2001.

While an intern at Walter Reed, Hasan had some "difficulties" that required counseling and extra supervision, said Dr. Thomas Grieger, who was the training director at the time.

Grieger said privacy laws prevented him from going into details but noted that the problems had to do with Hasan's interactions with patients. He recalled Hasan as a "mostly very quiet" person who never spoke ill of the military or his country.

"He swore an oath of loyalty to the military," Grieger said. "I didn't hear anything contrary to those oaths."

But, more recently, federal agents grew suspicious.

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

They had not determined for certain whether Hasan is the author of the posting, and a formal investigation had not been opened before the shooting, said law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the case.

One of the officials said late Thursday that federal search warrants were being drawn up to authorize the seizure of Hasan's computer.

Retired Army Col. Terry Lee, who said he worked with Hasan, told Fox News that Hasan had hoped President Barack Obama would pull troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Lee said Hasan got into frequent arguments with others in the military who supported the wars, and had tried hard to prevent his pending deployment.

Hasan attended prayers regularly when he lived outside Washington, often in his Army uniform, said Faizul Khan, a former imam at a mosque Hasan attended in Silver Spring, Md. He said Hasan was a lifelong Muslim.

"I got the impression that he was a committed soldier," Khan said. He spoke often with Hasan about Hasan's desire for a wife.

On a form filled out by those seeking spouses through a program at the mosque, Hasan listed his birthplace as Arlington, Va., but his nationality as Palestinian, Khan said.

"I don't know why he listed Palestinian," Khan said, "He was not born in Palestine."

Nothing stood out about Hasan as radical or extremist, Khan said.

"We hardly ever got to discussing politics," Khan said. "Mostly we were discussing religious matters, nothing too controversial, nothing like an extremist."

Hasan earned his rank of major in April 2008, according to a July 2008 Army Times article.

He served eight years as an enlisted soldier. He also served in the ROTC as an undergraduate at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg. He received a bachelor's degree in biochemistry there in 1997.

You know, I often wonder if enough attentiuon is paid to the MENTAL welfare of soldiers, generally. Their physical fitness seems paramount, but do the powers that be just regard soldiers as "fighting machines" and forget they are human with all the same frailties as the rest of us? Should more attention be paid to their mental wellbeing?

Dear Lynn,

This has been a major discussion in and out of government - and has been discussed in this group - about the need for psychological support for our military. IMO, it is not discussed enough and IMO little or nothing is being done about it.

Usually we hear about the difficulties being faced by returning soldeirs after they've been in combat in Afghanistan or Iraq - because there are those who suffer psychological problems due to their service.  As well as those who sufffer even if they have not been in direct combat situations. And IMO my government does a lousy job of supporting our military after they come home - psychologically and in other ways.

This incident at Fort Hood goes, IMO, beyond that.

Here was a trained officer; one trained to help other soldiers with the stresses of military life and combat. He was supposed to be one of the people there to help others having severe "mental" problems.  And he, instead, succumbed to "whatever" and committed this heinous crime of mass murder.

I agree with you, Lynn. In the larger picture, there seems to be something wrong.  Could others have seen this coming?  How could this have happened?  He hadn't even served in combat - but was scheduled to be deployed in a war zone.   There are hundreds, thousands of questions, and, I expect, we'll receive few answers.

But at least one question that will always remain is the one you are asking, Lynn: "Should more attention be paid to (Our military members') mental well-being?"

It's possible the army was on track to do something but didn't get to it in time. I'm sure there is due process required but I think they were investigating. I would hope they were considering discharging him. Whether the wars we're in are just or not, there is no place in the military for someone who is that contrary what the military is doing.

I agree, Dan.

Thank you Elizabeth.  Christian I feel equally horrible about all unneccessary deaths.  Please don't try to put your assumptions on to me.  This particular instance happened here, that is what we are talking about.  Hate America...hate the military, it doesn't bother me.  

Dear Suzanne,

I am going to ask again that one of the site hosts delete Christians artwork that refers to my country as 'your friendly but backwards neighbour'.

It crosses the line and is not funny.

Northern, it is funny. So is the Yurop, no TVs or escalators.  I am not agreeing with what Christian said, but I think the map is very funny indded.

Christian's post will not be deleted.

Christian, I'm curious - exactly how did you extrapolate this:

So then you agree that God should only bless America and not Canada or any other country on the planet or any other part of the universe? ~Christian

from this:

Christian, America has just suffered a real tragedy and this thread is about a tragedy that has happened today in that country .... This is not about anything else and I find your comments totally inappropriate and out of line given the situation. ~Northern

???

I have explained the rules here over and over and over again.

This forum is for people to freely give their opinions.  That means they can give popular opinions or unpopular opinions.  That means they can say what they want. 

People, I am asking you to stop messaging me asking me to (1) remove people you don't like, and (2) delete posts you don't like. I am not going to do that. Unless a post is a serious personal attack on another member, or breaks the rules of Care2 behavior, every post here will stay as it is.

I will not - and other hosts will not - edit posts to only allow what some feel are "acceptable" or popular opinions.  All opinions will be allowed.

That includes pro-military and anti-military.  That includes pro-war and anti-war.  That includes pro-American and anti-American.  That includes pro-Palin and anti-Palin.  That includes pro-Obama and anti-Obama.  That includes intelligent posts and stupid posts. That includes Left, Right and Beyond. 

I will not censor people's posts based on their political opinions. 

It's simple: shun those posting something you don't like.  Don't respond, don't counter-post, just ignore. 

I'm often sorely tempted to do so, and have done so with those who I see are hopelessly roooted in one loopy and looping mantra, lost in the past, or are utterly incognizant of the realities of today.

I do not agree with the policies of your President but I have never made a slur or an attack against your country - which is what Christian has done.

I am all for free speech Knate but sometimes lines are crossed that go too far.

IMO, this is one of them. I messaged you privately because that is what you told me to do with my concerns and I don't beleive I have done so often.  I agree with what you say to the point that no one, absolutely no one has the right to put down anyone else's country ....

Question the politics and the politician anytime you want but don't come after my flag and that is what Christian has done. We are not a backwards country and I resent that reference. IT IS NOT FUNNY!!!

Robert,

Thank you.  Thank you.

You know, I often wonder if enough attentiuon is paid to the MENTAL welfare of soldiers, generally. Their physical fitness seems paramount, but do the powers that be just regard soldiers as "fighting machines" and forget they are human with all the same frailties as the rest of us? Should more attention be paid to their mental wellbeing? Lynn

Lynn, even the military admits they are not able to do enough to help those people they are deliberately driving insane.  They have assembled elaborate panels of experts to "look into" how this phenom. of insanity is happening in the military and what to do about it (without changing foreign policy, of course). 

Of course they could just asked the average non-expert to determine what's going on.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that when human beings are emotionally tortured by using them to fight sustained and morally unjustified wars, calling upon them to indiscriminately destroy and kill instead of defend and save it can and does drive some of those human beings insane - I can't imagine that any of them are returned to their families unbroken to a lesser or greater extent.

God bless America?  'God' doesn't bless those who don't bless others - or themselves.

People can and do say whatever they want about any country they want.

I have heard people say bad things about Iraq, about Iran, about Afghanistan, about France, about Russia, about China, about Israel, about Venezuela, about the UK.....And people can say whatever they want about the US or about Canada.

I am not censoring people's opinions because (1) I disagree or (2) someone else disagrees with their political opinion.

Robert said it correctly:  If a post bothers one, then please ignore it.

We will not censor politcal opinions.

Xian is our little ADD Tourette's guy...every group should have one.

Okay, Robert.

Let's please not turn this into personally demeaning statements.

Okay?  Please.

I do not agree with the policies of your President but I have never made a slur or an attack against your country - which is what Christian has done. ~Northern

Northern, I think most people would be in agreement with you that to make slurs against a "country" based on it's government's policies and actions is a misplace of valid criticims of the government policies and actions put upon the governed. 

The policy here is and will be this:

People are free to give their opinions.  Period.

If one doesn't like their opinions, one is free to say so.  But I will not censor opinions about politics.  If one really doesn't like what someone else says, then ignore it.  If it isn't a direct, seriously demeaning personal attack, it will not be censored.

End of discussion.

I forgot the smiley face after the Xian ADD post...

<<Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, shot and killed 11 soldiers and one civilian before being killed, officials said. Thirty people were wounded, officials at the Army base said. A federal official said Hasan is a U.S. citizen of Jordanian descent.>>

I'm surprised.  I might have thought that the shooter was an Icelandic Norse pagan.

Asking God's blessing on America should not be seen as an exlusive request, nor should a Candian calling for God's blessing on Canada be seen as an exclusive request, unless the word "only" is applied to the request on behalf of one country or the other when asking for the blessing. Asking God's blessing should be seen for exactly what it is, an expression of concern or pehaps national pride for one's homeland.

As for the controversial map depicting America's view of the world, while it may be funny it isn't indicative of how the majority of Americans view the world. Most Americans if not aware of, are curious as to, their ancestry, which for most of us isn't Native American.

As for PTSD among soldiers, there are many mental health care professionals who believe every soldier who sees combat will at some point in time suffer the effects of PTSD. I suspect the sheer numbers of those whom experience PTSD is a major problem in and of itself. Factor in those whom feel the need to deny the possiblity they suffer the effects of PTSD, and the problem becomes even more exacerbated.

A possible solution may perhaps be mandatory pre-combat counselling to prepare men and women for the horrors of war as much as possible, followed by post-combat counselling to alert them, to whatever extent possible, that PTSD is highly likely upon return. Properly armed with an education of the possibilities may be the encouragement returning women and men need to seek help for PTSD.

I thought I was a "LR&B crack baby"? I love "ADD Tourette's Guy" but "LR&B crack baby" is easier to spell.

There is a "T" in "Xtian", though.

Whenever I hear an American say "God bless America", I take it they mean to the exclusion of all other countries. That is how it sounds and that is how it is meant, from my experience. A lot of Americans aren't interested in other countries. That isn't an insult, that is a fact. There are, of course, Americans who have traveled the world (Knate, for instance) and who know better, and although they love their country, they don't automatically dismiss others as not being worthy of God's blessings.

Good thing I'm an aetheist/agnostic/whatever.

Whenever I hear an American say "God bless America", I take it they mean to the exclusion of all other countries. That is how it sounds and that is how it is meant, from my experience. ~Christian

How do I say politely that how you 'take it,' Christian, is utter bullshyt?

What experience is it you are talking about?  Of the 300 million people who are Americans (live and are citizens of the U.S.), how many people, in your experience, have said "God bless America ONLY" ?  And whatever that relatively miniscule number may be, how then could you possibly 'take it' that all or a majoirty of Americans actually feel that way?

The Tea Baggers mean it that way, and they are nowhere miniscule in number.

We have a few Tea Party supporters in the group, let's put the question to them and see how your conviction plays out...

I am one, and I have never said or implied "God bless America ONLY"

I know Suzanne is a supporter as well, hopefully she'll weigh in but I highly suspect she's never done that either. 

Seanmhair also is a supporter and I've never heard her say or imply "God bless America ONLY"

I have one more thing to say about the cartoon posted by Christian...

That cartoon has appeared in this Group at least - at least four times in the past year or so!

It's a cartoon!

If someone doesn't like the cartoon, please go find the cartoonist and talk with them.

Can we get some perspective here, please?

By the way, Xtian....

G-d is spelled "G-d."

I am a TEA Party supporter, and couldn't disagree with Christian more. When I utter "God bless America", it is just as I wrote in my earlier post, an expression of concern or national pride, but NEVER to the exclusion of the other nations of the world. Just my opinion here, but I do believe a belief in God, by any name you choose to assign God, encourages a larger view of the world than just one's own homeland.

At the risk of being premature and politically incorrect here's my conclusion:

Hasan is a jihadist.

Interviews with a Colonel he worked with provided quotes of things like Muslim should rise up against the agressors. Comments by others say he approved of the Little Rock shootings by Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad of 2 recruits. When Hasan was shooting people he yelled God is Great in Arabic.

Where one goes with this I don't know. It looks like an isolated case so I'll leave it to the Army to decide how to deal with it.

Sometimes Christian has good comments but in general much of what he says is very general and just insulting. I am a Tea Party supporter and the term "tea bagger" is just a vulgar insult that advances no argument.

If someone wants to say God Bless America, God Bless the Queen, etc., I take it at face value. If he wants to read more into it that's fine too.

"Asking God's blessing should be seen for exactly what it is, an expression of concern or pehaps national pride for one's homeland."  -  Roy

Thank you, said extremely to the point and well. 

Katii - I think it is a rare occassion when I use the word G-D for anything.  Most people here would understand I have been raised without religion and do not have one.  That I believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs and the freedom to do as they please as long as they do no harm to others.  I live by that and I believe in that 100%.

I am almost sorry I made the reference now, but I believe what one would consider their G-d, or their belief system, to call upon and pray for these poor souls is a good thing to do.  Never would I descriminate and wish only for the United States, blessings of any kind.  It is a ridiculous assumption and somewhat childish ... just said to push buttons.  

Roy is absolutely correct when he said it was an expression of concern and pride in those suffering and pride in one's own country.  If anyone wants to make it more than what it was intended.  I can't stop that and in all honesty could care less what someone who might come to that conclusion may think any way.

 
I don't know how Tea Partiers go in to this, but what the hell let's put some whoop-a$$ on them to.  Too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you" You cannot currently send a star to Dan because you have done so within the last week.

So here's to you Dan

Katii and Roy ... I hope you received yours  

"Too many soldiers have PTSD, and although not every US soldier who has perpetrated a crime against other US soldiers has PTSD, there seems to be a correlation."

Elizabeth,

If Hasan had a condition the term "PRE-traumatic stress disorder" is probably more appropiate. My Dad came back from WWII with a purple heart and post-traumatic stress disorder (i.e. shell shock back then) that he dealt with the rest of his life. I don't think Hasan had any traumatic experiences.

I also say "G-d Bless" to people, in various ways, and it has nothing to do with excluding anyone or any other planet or galaxy.

...

Dear Dan....Hasan did not serve in combat; he served in school, becoming a doctor, and he served as a psychaiatrist.  IMO, that does not count for a designation of PTSD.

My uncle, David, was in the Normandy Invasion in WWII, which in real life was alot worse than one sees in the movies, and he was one of only about six left alive in his group after the landing.  He suffered from PTSD all his life - and he never went out and harmed anyone; not human nor animal.

Dear Roy, Katii, Suzanne, Dan...all of you.  You, too, Robert.  Green stars. As for people here, we sometimes fight over our opinions. Sometimes we - not all of us! - get obnoxious.  It comes with the territory.  It's the Internet!   But, IMO, if someone disses someone you like, or your nation, then tell them what you think and, if they don't get it, ignore the posts that disturb you. 

As for Tea Partiers - or attendees and supporters of Tea Parties - I would like everyone to call them Tea Parties.  Out of respect.  Not the other term, which is demeaning.

But if someone insists on continuing to use the demeaning term - like some use other demeaning terms like "Looney Liberals" or "Fascist Conservatives," then I say, ignore it.

If a person - any of us - me included - feels we need to use a demeaning term to describe others - then, IMO, it shows we really have nothing worth saying and even less worth listening to.  So, unless it really is a direct attack on one's character - or a lie - that needs to be dealt with - it says more about the person using the demeaning language.

.....

As for this tragedy, I hope later today or maybe tomorrow, the names of those killed and wounded will be released so we can show our proper respects to them, to their families and loved ones.

May G-d bless all those people in pain from what has happened at Ft Hood. 

 To the exclusion of billions of other people on earth also suffering today?  No. 

But I will express my deep caring for the 13 who were killed and the many others wounded - and their families and loved ones.  Today, they have my focus, my sympathy, my heart.......and I make NO APOLOGY for that.

Despite the fact that Fort Hood gunman Nidal Malik Hasan was a psychiatrist, the media has failed to even raise the question of whether he was taking psychotropic drugs before he gunned down over a dozen of his colleagues during yesterday’s tragic rampage, a hefty indictment of how the establishment rushes to blame politics, religion, gun rights, or any other factor for mass shootings in order to hide the direct link between such massacres and the use of anti-depressant drugs.

It has been confirmed that Hasan was an Army psychiatrist at Fort Hood. Psychiatrists have a history of “self-medication” because of the easy access they have to psychotropic drugs.

In almost every major mass shooting over the past two decades, since anti-depressant drugs became popular, the killer has been on SSRI’s – serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

The establishment media, allied closely as it is with the pharmaceutical industry, uniformly fails to stress this common factor, preferring instead to blame shootings on gun rights or, as in the case of Hasan, political motives.

However, any fair study of mass shootings cannot justifiably come to any other conclusion but the fact that SSRI’s play a central role in causing assassin’s to go berserk and engage in the kind of carnage that the average person struggles to comprehend.

Immediately after we learned of the Virginia Tech massacre, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history by a single gunman, we predicted that the assassin would be on psychotropic drugs, which is exactly what turned out to be the case.

Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates, were all on psychotropic drugs.

Robert Hawkins, the 19 year old who killed himself and eight other people with an assault rifle in Omaha, Nebraska in December 2007 had a history of treatment with psychiatric drugs for depression and ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) and was on prozac.

Jeff Weise, the Red Lake High School killer was on prozac, “Unabomber” Ted Kaczinski, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer, were all on SSRI psychotropic drugs.

Northern Illinois University killer Steven Kazmierczak had taken Prozac.

Since these deadly drugs are prevalent in almost all mass shooting incidents, where is the call to ban prozac? Why is the knee-jerk reaction always to attack the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans to self-defense? The fact that yesterday’s shooting occurred on an Army base is the only reason that the establishment media has been unable to blame the carnage on gun rights. Instead, they have exploited Hasan’s religion to stir up more hatred for Muslims in a crude attempt to reinvigorate flagging public support for the war on terror.

Scientific studies proving that prozac encourages suicidal tendencies are voluminous and span back nearly a decade.

In 2005, it was revealed that Eli Lilly had full knowledge of a 1200% increase in suicide risk for takers of their Prozac. This evidence came in the wake of findings published in the British Medical Journal a year previously.

In 2006 a report was published outlining the fact that anti-depressant drug Paxil doubles the risk of violent behavior. Another study published in the Archives of General Psychiatryrevealed that teens taking antidepressant drugs are more likely to commit suicide.

It is a well known fact among the makers of these drugs that they are directly linked to behavioral disturbances including agitation, panic attacks and extreme aggression, yet their use is so commonplace that they have now even found their way into our drinking water.

The corporate media, owned as it is by the U.S. military-industrial complex, will continue to gratuitously and shamelessly exploit yesterday’s tragedy by characterizing Hasan’s religious and political beliefs as the main motivation behind the massacre, without even investigating whether or not he was taking psychotropic drugs and what role these played in why he suddenly snapped, a character trait completely at odds with how Hasan’s own family described his personality.

The videos below (in the link) highlight the connection between psychotropic drugs and violence.

http://www.infowars.com/was-fort-hood-killer-on-psychotropic-drugs/

There are millions of people taking SSRI's who have never hurt anyone.

Orlando engineer suspected of shooting 6 at company that fired him says 'they left me to rot'
By Antonio Gonzalez,Mike Schneider, The Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. - A man who was so deep in debt that he did not have the money to visit his son 30 minutes away opened fire Friday at the engineering firm that fired him two years ago, killing one person and wounding five, authorities said.

As officers led a handcuffed Jason Rodriguez into a police station, a reporter asked the divorced 40-year-old why he had attacked his former colleagues.

"Because they left me to rot," said Rodriguez, who recently told a bankruptcy judge he was making less than $30,000 a year at a Subway sandwich shop and owed nearly $90,000.

The Florida shooting comes a day after a gunman at the Fort Hood military base in Texas killed 13 people and wounded about 30. An Army psychiatrist is suspected of opening fire on fellow soldiers there.

The shooting on the eighth floor of an office tower paralyzed downtown Orlando for three hours. Police quickly tracked Rodriguez to his mother's home, spotted him through a window and ordered him to come out.

He surrendered peacefully and was in custody Friday evening, though he had not yet been formally charged in the shootings.

All of the victims worked at the firm of Reynolds, Smith and Hills, where Rodriguez was an entry-level engineer for 11 months before he was let go in June 2007, the company said.

Police said Rodriguez used a handgun in the shooting, but they did not release additional details, including how he got inside the building, whether he said anything to people in the office or how he initially escaped.

The five wounded people were in stable condition at Orlando hospitals. The person who died was not identified.

Rodriguez's bankruptcy filing and his former mother-in-law suggested he was plagued by money woes.

Les Winograd, a spokesman for Subway Restaurants, said Rodriguez had worked for one of the company's sandwich shops in the Orlando area until six weeks ago. He would not say whether Rodriguez had left or was fired.

His mother-in-law, America Holloway, told The Associated Press that Rodriguez and her daughter, Neshby, were married for about 6½ years before divorcing several years ago. They have an 8-year-old son who lives with Neshby, about a half-hour away.

Holloway said the couple lived with her in Orlando for several years while they were married and that Rodriguez abused her daughter and once threw all her clothes into the street.

After the divorce, Rodriguez seldom saw his son, but he called last week while the child was at Holloway's house and the boy asked his father why he did not come over, too.

"He said, 'Because I don't have any money. I don't have a job. I don't have anything to eat. When things get better, I'll come see you,"' Holloway said Rodriguez told his son.

Associated Press writers Travis Reed, Kelli Kennedy, Jennifer Kay, Laura Wides-Munoz, David Fischer and Damian Grass in Miami; Mitch Stacy and Tamara Lush in Orlando; and Christine Armario in Tampa contributed to this report.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091106/world/us_orlando_office_shooting'

So much for blaming Muslims for all of America's woes.

<<Since these deadly drugs are prevalent in almost all mass shooting incidents, where is the call to ban prozac?>>

Guess what's even more prevalent than SSRIs in mass shooting incidents?

Guns.

David, Interesting point. I haven't heard anything to indicate he was on medication of any kind.  I never realized all those others were on meds.  Pretty freaky.  I am not big on medicating for everything.  There may need to be some further investigation in to what you suggest.

I think the issue of SSRIs is a serious problem - that millions of people do take them with the vast majority of those people not being under any kind of psychiatric help or observance is dangerous if to no one else but the person taking them. 

There are certainly cases where an SSRI can be helpful to people who are having serious emotional struggles - on a temporary bases and in conjunction to come kind of mental health counseling.  But I am not convinced that is the case for the vast majority of people using them. 

There are so many people on these SSRIs that have been taking them for years and years without ever having once visited a mental health professional!

These medications, like all medications, can be and are dangerous to the user and should be prescribed as a 'last' resort to mental help, by a psychiatrist.  But they are the very first thing a doctor offers a patient who is in emotional distress without so much as a general examination or doing a blood panel, most being prescribed by the 'family physician' who should instead be referring those patients to a mental health expert.

SSRIs have been a gravy train of HUGE profits to their makers and anyone using them shoud do so with extreme caution and under the close supervision of a mental health expert - always.

"Whenever I hear an American say "God bless America", I take it they mean to the exclusion of all other countries." - Christian

Well, gee, Christian. Since you're an American - albeit living in Canada - how do you mean it when you say it?

This isn't good...

Army: Suspect Said `Allah Akbar!' Before Shooting

Friday, November 6, 2009 7:55 AM

The base commander at Fort Hood says soldiers who witnessed a shooting rampage that left 13 people dead reported that the gunman shouted "Allah Akbar!" before opening fire at the Texas post.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone told NBC's "Today" show on Friday that suspected shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, made the comment, which is Arabic for "God is great!" before the rampage Thursday that also left 30 people wounded.

Military officials say they are still piecing together what may have pushed Hasan, an Army psychiatrist trained to help soldiers in distress, to turn on his comrades.

Cone says Hasan was not known to be a threat or risk.

Hasan was shot four times during the rampage. Cone says he is hospitalized in stable condition and that military officials will interrogate him as soon as possible.

© 2009 Associated Press

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_fort_hood_shooting/2009/11/06/282603.html?s=al&promo_code=9052-1

What point are you making with this article? That God isn't great?

Even if he said that, we cannot indict Islam - only those who pervert it's meaning...

Well, if he is a Muslim of course he would have said "Allah Akbar", if he was a Christian he may well have said "God is great", so? That doesn't mean his killings were religiously motivated. He killed all those people because he was mentally disturbed. But then I would argue that anyone who kills other people is mentally disturbed.

The point is he wasn't a terrorist as far as anyone knows.

Not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists.

He was undergoing counselling because he was disturbed by the experiences of the soldiers he was there to help. That is the most relevant point. War is stupid, war creates victims and all of those people, including Hasan himself, are victims of war.

Dear Barb,

As usual, the contradictory stories have me baffled.

I listened to the radio as one person, who said Hasan worked for her in the Army, tell how wonderful a psychaitrist he was; how he was always thoughtful and caring and, she said, he never had any problems. Then I listened to others who said he had many problems, argued about "the wars" with others, did not perform well at work.

But the facts remain, he killed and wounded all those people.  And I think, IMO, there were enough danger signs in this individual that the Army should have acted, perhaps, before this happened.  He had a lawyer trying to get him from being deployed in Iraq.  He was disciplined for prosletizing in a forceful manner.  There were other complaints.

Ft Hood is the place - the main base - where soldiers are deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.  It is the main place where soldiers are treated for PTSD.  There have been more than 50 suicides of soldiers - if those numbers are correct - in the past year.

I am concerned that our military members - many under enormous stress from combat and from long tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan - may not be receiving the best care passible.

I am concerned: Why was a doctor assigned to Ft Hood, a doctor who clearly was someone who complained about the US military role in Iraq (etc), where he was supposed to give support and aid to those going to Iraq (etc) and returning from their tours of duty?  Why was he allowed to continue to hold that sensitive position when, clearly, he was taking legal action against the military?

Could this tragedy have been avoided if the Army had acted to re-assign Major Hasan, based on his behavior and stance against the military?

I think, Barb, there are many questions that need to be answered.

Dear Elizabeth and dear Lynn,

Extremely well-said.  Yes, Lynn, I agree.  War creates, IMO, victims of us all.  I will always wonder, was the US invasion and occupation of Iraq necessary?  Is the continuing war in Afghanistan - the longest war in US history - worth fighting and losing lives over?

Those, too, are some of many questions, IMO, that need to be answered.

But for heroes, bloodbath could have been worse

By ALLEN G. BREED and JEFF CARLTON (AP)

FORT HOOD, Texas — Pfc. Marquest Smith, on his way to Afghanistan in January, was completing routine paperwork about a bee-sting allergy when the sounds erupted.

A loud, popping noise. Moans. The sudden, urgent shout of "Gun!"

Smith poked his head over the cubicle's partition and saw an extraordinary sight: An Army officer with two guns, firing into the crowded room.

The 21-year-old Fort Worth native quickly grabbed the civilian worker who'd been helping with his paperwork and forced her under the desk. He lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.

After the shooter stopped to reload, Smith made a run for it. Pushing two other soldiers in front of him, he made it out of the Soldier Readiness Processing center — only to plunge into the building twice more to help the wounded.

Smith had survived the worst mass shooting on an American military base, a rampage of more than 100 shots that left 13 dead and 30 wounded, including the alleged shooter, Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan.

It could have been much worse, but for the heroics of Smith and others — like the 19-year-old private who ignored her own wounds, and the diminutive civilian police officer whose gunfire helped take down Hasan.

"Unfortunately over the past eight years, our Army has been no stranger to tragedy," said a somber Gen. George Casey, Army chief of staff. "But we are an Army that draws strength from adversity. And hearing the stories of courage and heroism that I heard today makes me proud to be the leader of this great Army."

___

Home of the 1st Cavalry and 1st Army Division West, Fort Hood has seen more than its share of deployments and casualties in the past eight years.

As a psychiatrist, Hasan, 39, had listened to soldiers' tales of horror. Now, the American-born Muslim was facing imminent deployment to Afghanistan. In recent days, Hasan had been saying goodbye to friends. He had given away many of his possessions, including copies of the Holy Quran.

At 2:37 a.m. Thursday and again around 5, Hasan called neighbor Willie Bell. Bell could normally hear Hasan's morning prayers through the thin apartment walls, but Hasan skipped the ritual Thursday.

Bell didn't pick up either time, but Hasan left a message.

"Nice knowing you, old friend," Hasan said. "I'm going to miss you."

About an hour later, surveillance cameras at a 7-Eleven across from the base captured images of a smiling Hasan, dressed in a long white garment and white kufi prayer cap, buying his usual breakfast — coffee and a hash brown.

At the processing center on the southern edge of the 100,000-acre base, soldiers returning from overseas mingled with colleagues filling out forms and undergoing medical tests in preparation for deployment.

Around 1:30 p.m., witnesses say a man later identified as Hasan jumped up on a desk and shouted the words "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" He was armed with two pistols, one a semiautomatic capable of firing up to 20 rounds without reloading.

(cont.)

Packed into cubicles with 5-foot-high dividers, the 300 unarmed soldiers were sitting ducks. Those who weren't hit by direct fire were struck by rounds ricocheting off the desks and tile floor.

When he decided that Hasan wasn't close to being out of ammo, Smith made a dash for the door. He'd made it outside when he heard cries from within.

"I don't want to die."

"This really hurts."

"Help me get out of here."

Smith rushed back inside and found two wounded. He grabbed them by their collars and dragged them outside.

His second time through the door, he ran into the shooter, whose back was to him. Smith turned and fled, bullets whizzing by his head and hitting the walls as he rushed outside.

Around this time, Fort Hood Police Sgt. Kimberly Munley got the call of "shots fired." The SRP isn't on Munley's beat; she was in the area because her vehicle was in the shop.

Munley, 34, was on the scene within three minutes.

Just over 5 feet tall, Munley is an advanced firearms instructor and civilian member of Fort Hood's special reaction team. She had trained on "active shooter" scenarios after the April 2007 mass shooting at Virginia Tech University. She didn't wait for backup.

As Munley approached the squat, rectangular building, a soldier emerged from a door with a gunman in pursuit. The officer fired, and the uniformed shooter wheeled and charged.

Another officer, Senior Sgt. Mark Todd, also responded to the sound of gunfire. He arrived to find Hasan "just standing there, hiding behind a telephone pole."

"He just looked like he was calm and he was just pointing, it was almost like he was pointing his finger at me," Todd told CNN in an interview late Friday. "But then I seen the weapon. ... I just know I seen the weapon and muzzle flashes and then that's when we returned the fire."

Munley was hit at least three times in the exchange — twice through the left leg and once in her right wrist. Hasan was hit four times. It's not clear whose bullets hit the suspect, but from the first shots to the last, authorities say the whole incident lasted less than 10 minutes.

___

Pfc. Jeffrey Pearsall, 21, from Houston, was waiting outside in the parking lot for Smith. He was talking to his brother on a cell phone when a group of soldiers ran out the door and a window shattered.

It was only then that he heard the gunshots.

He pulled his pickup truck forward, then hopped out and helped the wounded into the bed. He loaded as many as he could and sped off to the base hospital.

Next door, at the Howze Theater, Spc. Elliot Valdez was filming a graduation ceremony for soldiers who'd completed correspondence courses. Several proud scholars were posing for a group shot when Valdez heard a pounding at the side door.

The door burst open and the theater filled with shouts of "Medic!" and "Stay in the building!" A combat videographer who returned from a 15-month Iraq tour in January, some of it in the notorious Sadr City slums, Valdez ran out into the sunlight.

Crouching as he continued to roll tape, Valdez could see windows broken by fleeing victims. He saw a soldier in his Class A dress uniform with a gunshot in his back. Soldiers in flowing black graduation robes and purple sashes rushed to help.

Pfc. Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., tore up her blouse and used it as a tourniquet on a wounded comrade. It was only later that she realized she'd been shot in the back, the bullet exiting her abdomen.

Sgt. Andrew Hagerman, a military police officer, was patrolling a housing area when word of shootings crackled over his radio.

As he arrived at the processing center, bloodied soldiers, some shirtless, were already treating each other on the grass outside, ripping pant legs off and tying off wounds. Munley — with whom Hagerman had exchanged small talk on patrols — was being loaded into an ambulance.

(cont.)

Hasan lay on the ground, his two handguns beside him, as medical personnel struggled to remove his handcuffs to treat his wounds.

Hagerman entered the building, took a deep breath and asked himself: "What do I need to do?"

He picked his way around the room's edges, careful not to step in pools of blood or to kick any spent shell casings. He had seen death during his two tours in Iraq, but nothing that compared with this.

In the confusion, Army Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, lost his cell phone. He borrowed a comrade's phone to send a text to his family in Lodi, Wis.

The message stated simply: "Grant. I was shot in the leg. I'll be OK."

Sgt. Howard Appleby, 31, was at the hospital for his regular meeting with a psychiatrist. Appleby, who was born in Jamaica and grew up in New York City, sustained a traumatic brain injury and has post-traumatic stress disorder from a roadside bomb blast during a tour in Iraq.

His appointment canceled, Appleby found himself pulling the dead and wounded from ambulances. In combat, he was used to one or two casualties a day. "This," he thought, "is crazy."

Lt. Col. Larry Masullo, an emergency room physician from Farmingdale, N.Y., was heading into a monthly meeting to review new doctors' credentials when he heard of the shootings.

"Yeah, OK," he said. "Multiple gunshot wounds. Is this a drill?"

In the next hour and a half, he would treat nearly two dozen soldiers.

For several hours, authorities feared there were several gunmen. By the end of the day, it was clear Hasan had acted alone, they said.

___

Hasan, hooked up to a ventilator, was moved Friday to a military hospital in San Antonio. The woman who stopped him, Munley, awaited surgery Friday to remove the bullets from her leg. Her husband was flying in from Fort Bragg, N.C.

Her boss, Chuck Medley, was thankful. "If an officer had to be close by to respond," he said, "Kim Munley is someone we'd want to be there."

Marquest Smith says some of the people he helped made it. But he knows others did not.

Afterward, Smith noticed a hole in heel of his right combat boot. A bullet had entered the boot, but he had somehow escaped injury — at least the physical kind.

After the adrenaline wore off, Smith was overwhelmed by a sense of betrayal, because this assailant who spilled so much blood was a soldier.

"We're supposed to be a family," he said.

Smith was overwhelmed by a sense of betrayal, because this assailant who spilled so much blood was a soldier.

"We're supposed to be a family," he said.

   All the fallen

Dearest Katii,

I agree...and will add this:

There is deep sadness in this loss.  There is sadness for this in so many ways, and for so much more.

We are supposed to be a family.

To all the fallen...         

This guy was a jihadist. I'll don't have the exact figures but I'd say 99.9% of terrorists these days are Muslim. This is the sad truth and I don't know what can be done about it. A few bad people can give a group a bad name. The promising fact is that 99.999% of Muslims are not terrorists. Some American Muslim groups have come out publically and condemned Hasan's actions which is encouraging.

Dear Dan,

One of the things that saddens me so deeply is how the world's one-billion-plus Muslims get attached to the actions of this one person who happens to be a Muslim. And I am sad because, yes, unfortunately, there is much terrorism spread throughout the world by people who describe themselves as Muslims.

I am also saddened because I know more than a little about Islam, the Qur'an and many teachings of the Muslim Faith.  Regardless of how many Muslims are actually involved in spreading hatred, violence and terrorism - and there are too many - this terrorism is not a true teaching of Islam or G-d (Allah), as transmitted through the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

It saddens me when I look at the history of Christianity - a Faith that grew out of the teachings of Jesus, known as the Saviour, known as the Son of G-d, known to Christians as the One who came to earth to teach us love and peace. I look at that history and see two thousand years of the most heinous crimes committed in the name of Jesus.  How many hundreds of millions of people died at the hands of those who called themselves Christians, followers of the G-d of Love?

That is the sadness I feel when I see the world terrorized, today, by those calling themselves Muslim - bringing death, hatred and destruction in the name of G-d (Allah) who, through His Prophet, sent us a message of peace.

The sadness I feel, that we take messages of peace and love...and turn them into messages of war and hatred.

Christians have come a long way and are making many positive changes in respect to their past.  I pray that positive changes will come to those who call themselves Muslim but practice terrorism and hate.  I pray for positive changes for all peoples of all Faiths of all kinds and all non-Faiths, too.

But until then, IMO, we all have to deal with the real world; a world of terrorism, oppression, exploitation, violence, war, intolerance and hatred.

For this reality we face, the sadness I feel is so deep it cannot be described.

Muslim terrorist is an oxymoron.

Anyone who is truly a Muslim couldn't be a terrorist because their religion would not allow it.

Srop giving terrorists the blanket of "Muslim" to hide behind, they do it themselves to try to justify their actions, but they are NOT Musliums.

That, Lynn, is exactly my point in my long-winded post (above) - for all those, historically, who commited atrocities in the name of Christianity - and for all those who commit atrocities in the name of Islam.

It is not Christianity or Islam that is at fault or is to blame.  The blame and the fault lie with the individuals who mis-use these Faiths, who try to hide behind these Faiths to commit their atrocities.  There is no justification for their actions in Christianity or in Islam.  No justification.

Christianity and Islam are not to blame.

Knate, very true about Christianity. Actually it was more the Catholic Church with the violent history.

Lynn, I don't know what else to call someone who says they are doing things in the name of Islam and does terrorist acts other than calling them a Muslim terrorist. Catholics did bad things in the name of Christianity and that can be pointed out too. The point isn't to say Islam is inherently wrong, I'm just saying it's being hijacked.

To be thorough I'll even throw the athiests in there too. Stalin, Mao, etc. The British would have called the Jews in Israel terrorists after WWII. I guess the commonality is that all these bad people are humans. Still, the fact seems to be that currently the Muslim connection to these acts is very strong.

I agree with you totally, Dan.

Islam is being hijacked by these terrorists.  I agree completely with putting it that way.

US Muslim Fear Backlash

As word spread that a gunman had opened fire at Fort Hood leaving a trail of carnage, a chilling realization swept across the U.S. Muslim community: He has an Islamic name.

From a professor who just testified in Congress, to a White House adviser appearing before a Jewish group and a former Marine driving home from work, Muslims across the country were shocked, angry and afraid that the attack would erode efforts to erase anti-Islamic stereotypes.

Many Islamic leaders said the Fort Hood tragedy that left 13 dead and 30 wounded including the alleged gunman, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, could likely post the sternest test for U.S. Muslims since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"A lot of us work very hard for this country, to make America a better place," said Muqtedar Khan, a progressive Muslim scholar who has just given Congressional testimony on U.S. foreign policy in Afghanistan before Thursday's attack.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re/us_rel_fort_hood_shooting_muslims

Knate, you can be saddened all you want about the 1 billion Muslims being painted with the brush of Jihadism through ignorance of the painters, but be very aware of the 10% (100 million) OF Muslims who think that al Kidah and the Taliban are right in their terrorism, that the world should be converted to Islam and that Sharia should be the law of all lands.

There is no doubt in my mind, Robert, that there are way too many people who call themselves muslims who agree with the tactics and goals of Al Qaeda and the Taliban and other extremists.

Ten percent?  I don't think it's that many.  But even 1 percent of 1 billion is a lot of people involved in and supporting terrorism.

I agree it is a major problem in our world, not to be treated lightly.

I will also add: The Taliban weren't created because of the United States - and even if the US went far away or didn't exist, the Taliban would still have their extremist program for their society. 

There are extremists within Islam who exist to alter Islam - and, perhaps the rest of the world.  Their existance, too, is not caused by or dependent on the existance of the US.  There were extremists within Islam long before the USA existed - and there would be extremists in Islam even if the USA never had existed.

I think that 10% is way too high of a figure.  I agree that it's very sad if even 1% of Muslims are involved in some sort of terrorism.

However, I spent from the end of 2001 to close to the end of 2007 living in a primarily Muslim community here in the US.  I can promise you that I didn't find one terrorist among them.

No one can deny the existence of terrorists who call themselves Muslim, but they are not practicing the true religion of Islam.  Just as the Christians who massacred and tortured people during the Inquisition were not practicing true Christianity, and the Israelis who killed so many civilians during the attacks on the Gaza strip were not practicing true Judaism.

All three of the Western religions advocate peace.  Anyone who kills in the name of G-d is practicing their own version of whatever religion to which they claim to adhere.

IMO.

Nice, how you slipped the bit about Gaza in without any mention of the 7,000 rockets fired by Hamas from Gaza into Israel, which precipitated the whole mess.  Ignoring is ignorance.

Think what you like, but there is great support for terrorism in the Islamic world.  The 10% is a fact.

How do Muslims worldwide think?

To find out, the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press carried out a large-scale attitudinal survey this spring. Titled “The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other,” it interviewed Muslims in two batches of countries: six of them with long-standing, majority-Muslim populations (Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey) and four of them in Western Europe with new, minority Muslim populations (France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain).

The survey, which also looks at Western views of Muslims, yielded some dismaying but not altogether surprising results. Its themes can be grouped under three rubrics.

A proclivity to conspiracy theories: In not one Muslim population polled does a majority believe that Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks on the United States. The proportions range from a mere 15 percent in Pakistan holding Arabs responsible, to 48 percent among French Muslims. Confirming recent negative trends in Turkey, the number of Turks who point the finger at Arabs has declined from 46 percent in 2002 to 16 percent today. In other words, in every one of these ten Muslim communities, a majority views 9/11 as a hoax perpetrated by the U.S. government, Israel, or some other agency.

Likewise, Muslims are widely prejudiced against Jews, ranging from 28 percent unfavorable ratings among French Muslims to 98 percent in Jordan (which, despite the monarchy’s moderation, has a majority Palestinian population). Further, Muslims in certain countries (especially Egypt and Jordan) see Jews conspiratorially, as being responsible for bad relations between Muslims and Westerners.

Conspiracy theories also pertain to larger topics. Asked, “What is most responsible for Muslim nations’ lack of prosperity?” between 14 percent (in Pakistan) and 43 percent (in Jordan) blame the policies of the U.S. and other Western states, as opposed to indigenous problems, such as a lack of democracy or education, or the presence of corruption or radical Islam.

This conspiracism points to a widespread unwillingness in the umma to deal with realities, preferring the safer bromides of plots, schemes, and intrigues. It also reveals major problems adjusting to modernity.

Support for terrorism: All the Muslim populations polled display a solid majority of support for Osama bin Laden. Asked whether they have confidence in him, Muslims replied positively, ranging between 8 percent (in Turkey) to 72 percent (in Nigeria). Likewise, suicide bombing is popular. Muslims who call it justified range from 13 percent (in Germany) to 69 percent (in Nigeria). These appalling numbers suggest that terrorism by Muslims has deep roots and will remain a danger for years to come.

British and Nigerian Muslims the most alienated: The United Kingdom stands out as a paradoxical country. Non-Muslims there have strikingly more favorable views of Islam and Muslims than elsewhere in the West; for example, only 32 percent of the British sample view Muslims as violent, significantly less their counterparts in France (41 percent), Germany (52 percent) or Spain (60 percent). In the Muhammad cartoon dispute, Britons showed more sympathy for the Muslim outlook than did other Europeans. More broadly, Britons blame Muslims less for the poor state of Western-Muslim relations.

But British Muslims return the favor with the most malign anti-Western attitudes found in Europe. Many more of them regard Westerners as violent, greedy, immoral, and arrogant than do their counterparts in France, Germany, and Spain. In addition, whether asked about their attitudes toward Jews, responsibility for 9/11, or the place of women in Western societies, their views are notably more extreme.

The situation in Britain reflects the “Londonistan” phenomenon, whereby Britons preemptively cringe and Muslims respond to this weakness with aggression.

Irish Catholics engaged in terrorism through the IRA. The bitter struggle between Ireland and Britain lasted for centuries and only ended when the British gave up their rule of most the Irish. It could have ended at any time before that, had the British let go of the Irish that much sooner.

Same with Israel/Palestine. Same with America and Al-Quida. Of course, those who benefit from perpetual war will always find excuses to wage it. As far as I'm concerned, they can ALL go to hell!

Nigerian Muslims have generally the most belligerent views on such issues as the state of Western-Muslim relations, the supposed immorality and arrogance of Westerners, and support for bin Laden and suicide terrorism. This extremism results, no doubt, from the violent state of Christian-Muslim relations in Nigeria.

Ironically, most Muslim alienation is found in those countries where Muslims are either the most or the least accommodated, suggesting that a middle path is best – where Muslims do not win special privileges, as in the U.K., nor are they in an advanced state of hostility, as in Nigeria.

Overall, the Pew survey sends an undeniable message of crisis from one end to the other of the Muslim world.

Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and author of Miniatures (Transaction Publishers).

http://acuf.org/issues/issue63/060705cul.asp

This makes me want to hurl...

As many as one in 11 British Muslims agree with and proactively support terrorism, a Government adviser has warned police.

Haras Rafiq also told officers at Scotland Yard that up to 20 per cent of the Muslim population ' sympathise' with militants, while stopping short of being prepared to 'blow themselves up'.

His remarks underline the scale of the task facing Gordon Brown to win the hearts and minds of Muslims, only a week after he promised an extra £70million to councils and community groups to fight extremism.

Mr Rafiq, an adviser to the Government's preventing extremism taskforce, said: "A percentage of people actually agree and support proactively the people that are deciding to blow themselves up.

"It varies, it can be 7 per cent, 5 per cent, 9 per cent."

With 1.6million Muslims living in the UK, nine per cent is the equivalent of 144,000 people supporting terrorism.

'Proactively' supporting terrorism is understood to mean the people are vocal in their support for fanatics, rather than actively helping them to commit atrocities.

Mr Rafiq, filmed by Channel 4's Dispatches, went on: "Next we can have a percentage of people that can actually sympathise.

"These people at this stage ... won't go out and be operational and won't decide to blow themselves up but can sympathise with the people that can blow themselves up.

"Again this can be in double digits. Then we have a percentage of the population that actually empathises with the people that blow themselves up. It could be 15 to 20 per cent.

"It could be somebody who says, 'I don't agree that these guys are blowing themselves up but I can actually understand why'."

Mr Rafiq, a member of the Sufi Muslim Council, made his presentation to Scotland Yard earlier this year, after almost two years of Government attempts to combat extremism in the wake of the July 7 bombings.

Critics argue that working parties and an attempt to persuade Muslim leaders and groups such as the Muslim Council of Britain to speak out against extremism have not had the desired impact.

The documentary reveals that fanatics are continuing to peddle a message of hatred in the UK.

This centres on persuading Muslims that the covenant of security that in return for safety and freedom, Muslims do not attack the nation that is their home - has been broken by draconian anti-terror laws and the war in Iraq.

Dispatches discovered that Abu Mohammed, a fanatical preacher based in Europe, managed to make a series of visits to Britain, lecturing to young Muslims in houses in Luton, before being banned by the Home Office in March this year.

He continues to radicalise followers here via the Internet.

Mohammed is filmed by reporter Phil Rees declaring: "We are in a state of war and no covenant exists...British Muslims should know that the British Government will do everything to frighten them, to make them very uncomfortable and they have to be prepared to pay the price and fight back."

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said yesterday that the Government is changing its approach to dealing with extremism.

She added: "It seems to me that what we should be doing is emphasising the values that we share which are under attack from terrorism-rather than trying to create a battle or war between those who oppose the terror and those who want to carry it out."

She suggested Muslim communities have not been best served by their leaders.

She backed moves, put in place by Ruth Kelly when she was Communities Secretary, to broaden the kinds of groups with which the Government engages.

Miss Smith told New Statesman magazine: "We've got to make serious attempts to go beyond those who have previously been seen as leaders of the community."

• Dispatches

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-472791/One-11-British-Muslims-backs-suicide-bombers-says-Brown-aide.html#ixzz0WFTGJlSY

This makes me want to hurl...

What makes you want to hurl?

As a Jew, Robert, I have a strong belief in the existence of Israel - the Jews need to have a homeland - a place that is safe for us.  Consequently, I am very aware of the rockets that Hamas sent to Israel - and I condemn it quite loudly.

We were talking about white phosphorus - that is why I mentioned the Israeli use of it, which I also condemn.

I don't believe in terrorism, fundamentalism, or fanaticism - no matter who the perpetrators may be.  When suicide bombers execute their orders, they are wrong.  When anyone uses white phosphorus, they are wrong.  When someone sends rockets, they are wrong. 

I have no problems finding the good in the US, as well as the bad.  But that applies to any country, any group, anywhere.

Even if the figure was 10%, which I do not believe, that would still leave 90% of Muslims not being terrorists, a clear majority.

It was not too long ago that Jews were looked down upon - for centuries.  In the Middle Ages, they thought we were responsible for the black plague...Jews also could not get into any of the craft guilds - that is how and why so many Jews became merchants and money lenders - most other avenues were closed to us.

I don't want to see the same thing happening to the Muslims - centuries of bigotry and prejudice aimed their way.

I'm quite grounded in reality - I know that today, many terrorists are Muslim, but somewhere between 90% and 99% are not.  Let us not condemn them all for the acts of the few.

The “statement of clarification” now inserted by the NYPD points out that the report focuses on terrorism in the West, inspired by and linked to al-Qaeda.

 
“The twisted ideology that underpins this specific type of terrorism claims its
legitimacy from an extremist misinterpretation of Islam. As a consequence, this particular type of terrorist ideology has historically found most of its supporters to be Muslim.

 
“Nevertheless, NYPD understands that it is a tiny minority of Muslims who
subscribe to al-Qaeda’s ideology of war and terror and that the NYPD’s focus on al-Qaeda inspired terrorism should not be mistaken for any implicit or explicit justification for racial, religious or ethnic profiling.”

 
In a letter to NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly this week, MACLC welcomed the appearance of the “statement of clarification” but said the police department needs to do more to publicize the move, which it said had apparently been made “without any public announcement.”

 
It also argued that the report itself remained unchanged, and said it regretted that the statement of clarification “was relegated to an insert within the report, rather than being implemented throughout the text itself.”

 
MACLC raised several other unresolved concerns, saying the report “should more clearly state that there is no per se link between Islam and terrorism and that the report’s focus on al-Qaeda should not be read to suggest such a link.”

Robert "where Muslims do not win special privileges, as in the U.K.," Special priveleges? Muslims in the UK only have the same rights as any other UK resident or citizen. I have seen no evidence of special privileges at all.

I appreciate your post is not your own words, but it is the sort of thing that is causing racicial hatred and divide in the UK. I see it is from the Daily Mail, a very right wing tabloid not known for it's impartiality.

Robert, are you an atheist or agnostic? I am, and yet even I do not have the seething hatred for all Muslims you seem to have. And the only ones who, in my mind, have any credibility when it comes to criticizing Muslims and Islam is non-religious people like Pat Condell.

I may dislike the way he does it, but at least he is no hypocrite. Most religious critics of Islam use a double standard intended to promote their own faith as better than Islam. That itself is dishonesty. There is no "better" or "worse" faith.

hello Lynn.

'nite all

It's simple: shun those posting something you don't like.  Don't respond, don't counter-post, just ignore. 

I'm often sorely tempted to do so, and have done so with those who I see are hopelessly roooted in one loopy and looping mantra, lost in the past, or are utterly incognizant of the realities of today.

That's actually excellent advice. Maybe we should take it?

Lynn...It's not me that says it, but non-Muslims in the UK see Muslims in a positive way, while Muslims tend to see westerners with hatred.  That's the fact.

Dale...

In Europe, nearly 2 million Muslims (10% of total number) are convinced that terrorist attacks targeting civilians are morally justified. Of that number, nearly 1 million live in France, nearly 260,000 live in UK and another 390,000 live in Germany. One tiny detail that Newsweek, in its article “Dispelling the Myth of Eurabia”, has absolutely not considered.

Meanwhile, UK has released 20 jihadists who pose “a real danger for UK”, but have not sent two of them, accused and condemn for raising £250,000 for Al-Qaeda, to Algeria because “their safety would be at risk”.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lynn...to reiterate:

The United Kingdom stands out as a paradoxical country. Non-Muslims there have strikingly more favorable views of Islam and Muslims than elsewhere in the West; for example, only 32 percent of the British sample view Muslims as violent, significantly less their counterparts in France (41 percent), Germany (52 percent) or Spain (60 percent). In the Muhammad cartoon dispute, Britons showed more sympathy for the Muslim outlook than did other Europeans. More broadly, Britons blame Muslims less for the poor state of Western-Muslim relations.

But British Muslims return the favor with the most malign anti-Western attitudes found in Europe. Many more of them regard Westerners as violent, greedy, immoral, and arrogant than do their counterparts in France, Germany, and Spain. In addition, whether asked about their attitudes toward Jews, responsibility for 9/11, or the place of women in Western societies, their views are notably more extreme.The situation in Britain reflects the “Londonistan” phenomenon, whereby Britons preemptively cringe and Muslims respond to this weakness with aggression.

Gee, I wonder if Robert has tried talking to actual Muslims about how they feel about terrorism against civilians, whether American or otherwise. It appears not. Instead, he relies on right-wing sources that have a vested interest in perpetuating the hatred of Muslims in general.

For those who are more objective, check out these:

http://www.freemuslims.org/about/

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html

http://www.m-a-t.org/

http://www.awesomelibrary.org/Muslims.html

If only we could rid the world of Muslims, of Jews, of Liberals and of homosexuals, then the world would finally be safe and wonderful and free.

Aren't those the same types of concepts and sentiments that Adolf Hitler brought us in Mein Kampf?

Oh, yes, Knate.................and don't forget the gyspsies and the mentally disabled. As for those black people.....well. They eat babies don't they??

Dear Lynn,

Thank you for reminding us that we cannot stop at exterminating only Muslims, Jews, Liberals and homosexuals.  The "cleansing" of the earth will not be complete until we take care of, also, the Rom, the Slavs, the Poles, Russians, Asians, native indigenous populations, the mentally-disabled, the physically-disabled, all people of colour and everyone who does not have blond hair and blue eyes.

Sorry Knate, but the colour of your eyebrows is not entirely what fits into my master plan so I will be exterminating you, your friends, neighbours and relatives soon. 

And I'm going to beat the crap out of all of them with my meditation CD!! 

I'm going on vacation for a week.  I'll try to post while I'm gone.  If not, have a great week.

Dearest Elizabeth,

Have a wonderful week!

Thanks Knate.

Almost certainly the vast majority of Muslims in the US don't approve of this. It the political correctness aspect that bothers me. His fellow students knew something was wrong but didn't want to appear to be discriminatory against Muslims and so no one reported his weird behaviour. From an AP article:

"I told him, `There's something wrong with you,'" Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, told The Associated Press on Saturday. "I didn't get the feeling he was talking for himself, but something just didn't seem right."

Danquah assumed the military's chain of command knew about Hasan's doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates at the Maryland graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan's "anti-American propaganda," but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal complaint.

Dear Dan,

I am also troubled if others knew that there was 'something wrong" with Hasan, and they did nothing, then we need answers for that.

Did the Army and others gloss over or ignore Hasan's problems?  Could this tragedy have been avoided?  If he was so vocally anti-American, what was he doing in the military?  Why was he serving in such a sensitive capacity?

The questions keep coming, Dan, and so far, the answers are few.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army's top general expressed concern on Sunday that last week's mass shooting at Fort Hood in Texas, blamed on a Muslim Army officer, could fuel a backlash in the military against Muslim troops.

I am so blasted tired of the Muslims are terrorist thing, I've lived in a Muslim country (Peace Corps), and though the majority of the people there were Muslim, they were People, just like the rest of us, who wanted the same things we all want in life.  There are Muslims who are terrorists, and there are those from other religions who follow a path that isn't how the rest of us understand the religion; it is about the person, not their religion.

If anyone has a problem with the Pew polls, talk to the foks at Pew; they did the polling.  If anyone has a problem with those poll results being posted, talk to the hosts and see if they will remove the "offending" poll results.  If anyone has a problem with my posting news...tough.

NOWHERE did ANY post by me say that ALL Muslims are terrorists..   Do the reading required to understand the post.   

NOWHERE did ANY post by me say that ALL Muslims are terrorists..   Do the reading required to understand the post.  

I did read and understand your posts, and what I saw from them is that you hate Muslims, period, and will post anything that makes them look as evil as possible.

Robert, you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else here. But you posted "In Europe, nearly 2 million Muslims (10% of total number) are convinced that terrorist attacks targeting civilians are morally justified."

Who went round and asked 2 million people anything at all and then correlated the results on a Europe wide basis?????  Nobody is the answer. This is propoganda. 

Dear Carmen,

Excellently-said.  I agree and most everyone else here agrees.  Thank you for your post!

Dear Lynn,

I agree when you say:  "This is propaganda."

Dear Robert,

I do not agree that you "hate Muslims" but I do believe you tend, in general, to think the worst about Muslims and about Islam.

I don't see things in such stark contrasts.  Of course, I agree that the world has a serious problem with extremism - and the most visible "religious" extremism today seems to be that of Muslim extremists.  Terrorists and extremists who call themselves Muslims are responsible for a great deal of terrorism and violence and intolerance in today's world.

I do not see them as representative of Islam or of most Muslims.  But the extremists and terrorists who exist are a threat to all societies of the world - and to Islam itself.

Rather than isolating Muslims from non-Muslims, I would like to see us explore better ways the non-extremists of the world can join with the hundreds and hundreds of millions of non-extremist Muslims, to oppose any and all extremism and terrorism that threatens us.

Islam is not the problem.  Muslims are not the problem.  Extremists and terrorists are the problem.  People who choose extremism and terrorism are the problem.  There are billions of people in the world, of all faiths and all ethnicities, who oppose extremism.  Including Muslims.  We need to do a better job of uniting ourselves in the common cause of opposing terrorists and terrorism.

Sen. Joe Lieberman calls Fort Hood massacre a 'terrorist' act

BY Samuel Goldsmith


Sunday, November 8th 2009

Sen. Joe Lieberman called the Fort Hood massacre an act of "Islamist extremism" - even as top Army brass warned Sunday against guessing at a motive, fearing backlash against Muslim soldiers.

"There are very, very strong warning signs here that Dr. Hasan had become an Islamist extremist and, therefore, that this was a terrorist act," Lieberman (I-Conn) told Fox News on Sunday.

"If the reports that we're receiving of various statements he made, acts he took are valid, he had turned to Islamist extremism."

 Lieberman, the former Democratic vice presidential candidate, chairs the Senate Homeland Security committee.

Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people and wounding 30 more on Thursday, reportedly expressed moral concerns about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lieberman's comments were in stark contrast to U.S. Army chief of staff George Casey, who told CNN he's deeply worried "that the speculation could cause something that we don't want to see happen."

"It would be a shame - as great a tragedy as this was - it would be a shame if our diversity became a casualty as well," Casey said.

The former Iraq war commander said on ABC that focusing on Hasan's religious roots might "heighten the backlash" against all Muslims serving in the armed forces.

Some 3,500 people who identify themselves as Muslim serve in the U.S. armed forces. Experts suggest there are actually many more Muslim soldiers, but they are too fearful to openly declare their faith.
An Army chaplain asked worshipers at Fort Hood to pray for the victims of the tragedy - and also for Hasan and his family.

"Lord, all those around us search for motive, search for meaning, search for something, someone to blame. That is so frustrating," Col. Frank Jackson told a group of about 120 people gathered at the post's chapel.

American Muslims express fear, frustration after Ft. Hood shootings



By Duke Helfand and Richard Fausset

November 7, 2009



The news made Nihad Awad sick to his stomach.

Like the rest of the nation, Awad, who heads the Council on American-Islamic Relations, learned this week that it allegedly was a Muslim who opened fire at a U.S. Army base in Texas, killing 13 people and injuring many more. According to witnesses, Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan issued the great, exalting cry of his faith before opening fire:

"Allahu akbar!" God is great.

Hearing the story, Awad too would invoke his maker -- but with a weary lament that is echoing coast to coast among American Muslims.

"I said, 'Oh God, here we go again,' " Awad recalled. "We know what will come when a Muslim name flashes across the [television] screen. What will come is guilt by association."

In response to Thursday's shooting, mosques around the U.S. denounced the violence and implemented a range of overt and subtle security measures. In the Los Angeles area, Islamic groups contacted law enforcement officials, who stepped up patrols of mosques and Muslim community centers.

USC sophomore Janan Al-Henaid said that her mother called Friday, asking her to come home to Claremont and to be careful when going out. "And she's never done that before," Al-Henaid said.

Muslim groups participated in a conference call Friday with federal agencies -- including the Homeland Security and Justice departments -- to discuss Muslim Americans' safety.

Eight years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, mainstream Islam remains a subject of suspicion to some Americans -- a perception fueled by prejudice and fear, but also by recent allegations of foiled terrorist plots hatched by homegrown Muslim radicals.

Despite eight years of post-9/11 education campaigns, the suspicion and the scrutiny remain a source of deep frustration for Muslim American leaders.

Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles, said that the Ft. Hood massacre would be exploited "by groups like Al Qaeda that will use it as a card to justify more religious extremism and violence, and by Muslim-haters who will use it to divide our country and foment fear and hatred."

Al-Marayati said he first prayed for the victims. Then he offered another prayer.

"We prayed," he said, "that it was not a Muslim."

(cont.)

Hasan, a Virginia-born psychiatrist, was in many ways a product of the American mainstream. But among some observers, the rampage freshly stoked long-standing fears that even moderate Muslims may have divided loyalties.

The right-wing news site WorldNetDaily said that according to an "explosive new book," Hasan was "just the tip of a jihadist Fifth Column operating within the ranks of the U.S. military." Lt. Col. Lee Packet, an Army spokesman, called that assertion "total speculation."

Muslim leader Maher Hathout addressed such fears head-on in a raw, emotional sermon at the Friday afternoon prayer service at the Islamic Center of Southern California. Speaking to 2,000 quiet worshipers, Hathout told of a call he had received after the shooting. The caller posed a question: Could any Muslims be trusted now?

"This is the question on the minds of your co-workers, on the minds of your neighbors -- this is the trust, and we have to do something about it," Hathout said.

He implored his fellow Muslims not to hide in the wake of the shooting, but to speak with their neighbors about any lingering misperceptions.

Muslim groups that say they represent the mainstream rushed to denounce the Texas shooting in the most forceful terms -- much as they did after Sept. 11 and after the breakup of other foiled terrorist plots.

Awad's Washington-based group, known as CAIR, noted that it had launched an anti-terrorism petition drive and a TV ad campaign against religious extremism, and coordinated an anti-terrorism fatwa, or religious ruling, condemning extremism and terrorism.

Some Muslim leaders worry that Americans ignore such messages, because the messages either appear to be a matter of form or are overshadowed by news of isolated terrorist plots.

Complicating their efforts are some outsiders' suspicions about the motives of CAIR, one of the most prominent Muslim civil rights groups. In a letter last month, Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.) and three other members of Congress asked the House sergeant-at-arms to determine whether the group was a "security threat." The representatives alleged a relationship between CAIR and terrorist groups, citing that as a basis for the FBI's recent decision to cut ties with the group.

Meanwhile, Islamic leaders find themselves again denouncing a crime hundreds of miles from their communities.

At Masjid Omar ibn Al Khattab, a mosque near USC, retired professor Fathi Osman spoke about how some people misinterpret the Koran to fit their twisted thinking. But afterward, college student Tasbeeh Herwees of Cypress expressed frustration over having to hear another sermon that she felt was apologizing for someone else's actions.

"I think it's kind of tiring to have to do these sermons over and over again, and I think the general public should understand that Islam is not synonymous with violence," she said.

In Dearborn, Mich., home to a large Arab and Muslim community, Kassem Allie received a call Friday from a TV news reporter. Allie, a member of the board of trustees at the Islamic Center of America, called the shooting an act of "maniacal brutality."

The reporter said he was trying to "gauge" Allie's reaction to the news in Texas. Allie became rather annoyed.

"I said, 'What do you mean by gauge? That we condemn this strongly enough? What do you want me to do -- stand on my head and say I'm sorry?' "

Allie said a few hours later: "It was probably a poor choice of words on the reporter's part. But that's what we're faced with."

If anyone has a problem with terrorists bent on attacking America or Americans take your complaints to the American government.

I would think those Americans who embrace the idea of America's 'nation building' adventures, perpetrating crimes they would not tolerate being committed against themselves would think we deserve to be 'terrorized' - like they say Afghanistan 'deserved' to have American attack it after 9/11.

Reuters
Saturday, November 7, 2009; 2:09 PM

"In Europe, nearly 2 million Muslims (10% of total number) are convinced that terrorist attacks targeting civilians are morally justified. Of that number, nearly 1 million live in France, nearly 260,000 live in UK and another 390,000 live in Germany. One tiny detail that Newsweek, in its article “Dispelling the Myth of Eurabia”, has absolutely not considered."

Robert,

I would be utterly amazed and (I almost hate to use the word) frightened if 10% of Muslims think targeting terrorists is OK. I would be worried if 1% thought it was OK. You mentioned Pew research. Do you have some links to these results. I really like to be careful of sources on the internet. If you're quoting a reputable source we can go from there.

What I believe is this: 

No one, especially in the press, will ever know exactly what was troubling Mr Hasan.  It is very possible to suffer PTSD from non-military trauma.  That is a fact. (see: http://www.medicinenet.com/posttraumatic_stress_disorder/article.htm )

The trauma can be a childhood trauma that the person has never gotten over.   I don't think we will ever know for sure what set off this particular gunman.  I do know that recruiters for the armed services must meet a quota and will promise a lot of highly attractive but not always realistic benefits to the recurits.  This gentleman was the son of legal immigrants, went to school in Virginia (high school and college) and joined the ROTC and apparently was recruited to go to medical school through the service.  my guess would be he started on this journey before 9/11.  And my other guess is that he was recruited with the assurance that he would be a psychiatrist for returning GIs and not a war zone physician.   But only time will tell. 

I do not believe we, as the public, will EVER get the complete story now. Since this person was of an ethnic class going through school post 9/11 I have no doubt he was isolated to some extent.  Let's just pray for him so he can heal and deal with the tragedy his own personal tragedy effected.

" And my other guess is that he was recruited with the assurance that he would be a psychiatrist for returning GIs and not a war zone physician."

Not that it really matters but anyone who joins the military knows they can be sent to a war zone. Especially someone who is an officer would know that.

PLEASE GO TO PART II at....

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=22384&pst=1350134&saved=1