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1 year ago
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http://www.thepetitionsite.com/744/157/032/using-logic-rather-then-fear-for-reasonable-sentencing-against-viewing-child-porn/

 The above was found by Evelyn

 I have reporeted this to Eric and I hope you will too

1 year ago

So agree with 'Go after the people actually abusing children.'

Signed it.


have I misunderstood and shouldn't have signed it, sorry Rose.



This post was modified from its original form on 12 Nov, 15:04
1 year ago

I have also reported this offensive petition Rose.

Judith we all make mistakes, this petition needs to be removed from Care2.

extracted: "Downloading and viewing child porn does not promote child abuse anymore then viewing a murder or a car accident promotes.  I don't condone it and it should be illegal but let's give reasonable sentences for this victimless crime"

Viewing is in essence promoting child pornography, vast somes of money are made from this child exploitation.
The person writing this petition is also ignoring the horrible pain and suffering of the children. 
The people viewing it should get stiff sentences  ( what the hell are they doing watching it in the first place )



This post was modified from its original form on 12 Nov, 15:40
1 year ago

Thanks Vivien,  Obviously child pornography should NEVER be there in the first place.  In the case of curiosity and no intention I don't believe he should receive a life sentence in prison for other people's crime of producing/distributing child pornography.

I think he is sick also, but a life sentence??   Dreadful, agree, but perhaps jails be packed to the brim if all were caught and given this sentence.



This post was modified from its original form on 12 Nov, 16:13



This post was modified from its original form on 12 Nov, 16:19
1 year ago

Thanks Rose for bringing this to our attention... in the process of asking Eric to remove it.

1 year ago

Rose, I notice your post in Care2 Feedback and Suggestions...
here's the address of that discussion thread if anyone wants to follow it up:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=187&pst=1698862

1 year ago

Have mixed feelings about this, but will not sign the petition. My first inclination is that since this guy had hundreds of pictures and a bunch of videos of children, I cannot sympathize with his fate. He was found guilty on 454 counts. Those who download child pornography are encouraging it. On the other hand, as much as I personally don't care if he sits in jail forever, judges need to give fair sentences for the crime. If those who make and distribute child pornography are getting lighter sentences, that is not justice.

1 year ago

 Judith,

 As Vivien says dont worry about it!

 Thanks Vivien for reporting it too

 Thubten thanks for link.

On the other hand, as much as I personally don't care if he sits in jail forever, judges need to give fair sentences for the crime. If those who make and distribute child pornography are getting lighter sentences, that is not justice. I agree Judy

1 year ago

 I will not be signing

 cheers

1 year ago

please explain me how reported this aaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggg! gracias, have a splendid day/night and thanks

1 year ago

This is exactly the discussion, that I didn´t want.

I didn´t complain about this petiton because petitoner questions the fact that a child porn viewer got life sentence!!! How could I? Of course everbody has the right to question or criticize this. In this point Eric was right.

The reason for me to ask Care2 several times to close that petition, and to call American NGOs that fight for children´s right to support me, was, that the petitoner dares to say:

 that viewing child porns is a victimless crime!!!!!

and that child porn viewers " have never participated in any harmful action against children"!!!!!!

and that downloading and viewing child porn doesn´t promote child abuse anymore than viewing a murder or a car accident promotes“ .

 

Thus the petitioner is trivializing the heinous crime of viewing child porns. A person that consumes child porns creates the demand for them to be produced. Therefore it is a crime to say what I mentioned above.This should be the reason for banning the petition, the petitioner and Eric for sending stupid, arrogant and ignorant replies to me after I have explained all this to him.

He was just ignoring this horrible sentences of that sick petitioner. Telling me that the latter is just questioning the sentencing guidlines for viewing child porns. Which I told him isn´t the problem of the petition. But Eric just ignores the fact that the person trivializes childporns in a very tricky way.

 

To be honest, it makes me sick, that now people here start to discuss whether someone should get life sentence or not for the crime of viewing child porn, instead of reading the really probelemtical sentences of the petition, and discussing that with Eric.

Thus they do the same thing like Eric, they just ignore the sick parts of that disgusting petition. That was not my intention, when I was searching for peole to join me in the battle against this petition. There is no way to win this battle if we don´t focus on what should be prohibited on CAre2 "to trivialize the crime of vewing child porns" , by calling it for example a victimless crime.

If people all overread the disgusting parts of the petition and only discuss about the life sentence case the petitioner mentions, the petitioner reached his goal!!!!

He made us accept him his shocking statements he smuggled in into the second part of the petition. Why don´t people read that dirty stuff properly, when they want to get rid of it?

Why don´t people see how tricky the petitioner is using lanugage? Even the picture he has chosen for the petition would tell a profiler how sick and mean he is. Guess why he has chosen the foto of  a little kitten for a petition in which he trivializes consuming child porns?

 

Sorry for being so straight and for freaking out. But I had too many discussions with ignorant people on board of Care2 about this sick petition during the last weeks.

And it hurts me very badly that I became a member of a petitonsite for the first time in my life, and suddenly finding myself in a battle against a petiton that on no other petitionsite of the world would be accepted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in no other community this petition would have survived longer than 24 hours and there is no excuse for the fact that it stays here since several months.

Not to forget the two Neo-Nazi petitions and the homophobic hate petition that I was fighting to get removed, from the beginning of my membership here.

Not to forget that Eric deleted my anti homophobic petition in less than 24 hours!!!!!

Not to forget that the Democrats group of Care2 deleted my posts against the Neo Nazis petitions. And when I asked them why, they deleted that post too without an answer.

Not to forget that the Amnesty International group has informed me, that I´m not any longer allowed to post anything about that child porn petition in the group.

 

I´m sick of being censored and all this bullying behind the scenes. ( As I told Rose, I became physically sick for 48 hours from all that). I´m so disappointed about this so called social network, named Care2.... the name makes it even more a sad satire. Why not changing the name into Ignore2????? 

 

 

 

1 year ago

And Eric I´m so sick of you deciding for a community of millions of people what is wrong and what is right. What gives you ethically vice the right to do that. What qualifies you to

do that?

As I wrote to you I´m not willing to change your blindness regarding that child porn petition (and othes) and I´m not trying to change your shocking ignorant opinion that you have expressed in your arrogant reply to me and some other members of Care2 that asked you to remove the child porn petition. As I wrote you, I let societ decide it.

And here is the petition I will start on several petitionsites against this child porn petition:

 

Stop petition that trivializes viewing child porns!                      

Please help to stop a petition on Care2 in which viewing child porns is called a “victimless crime“.

Furthermore the author of the disgusting petition explains that child porn viewers „have never participated in any harmful action against children“! This is not only a zynical lie, it is a mockery and insult of all victims and their families.

Contrary to the statements of the petitoner child porn viewers are directly responsible for child abuse!

Because a person viewing child porns is creating a demand for persons that produce them. Thus the consumer of child porns is complicit in that harm. He is complicit in the terrible crime of children being forced into something that make them suffering for the rest of their this way destroyed lifes. Each child shown in child porns was gravely hurt mentally, spiritually and quite probably physically. The fact that the child porn owner/viewer doesn´t physically lay hands on them is immaterial. He´s responsibe for that child abuse, because he creates a demand for that pictures by buying and downloading them.

Therefore a petitioner that calls child porn viewing „a victimless crime“ and telling the audience that this is no participating in any harmful action against children, is trivializing this heinous crime and should be banned from a petitionsite as well as his petition.

I understand that the goal of that questionable petition is only to advocate against the fact that a 26-year old man has been sentenced for life for posessing child porns, that show boys age 6 to 12 engaged in sexual activity with adults and each other. And I accept that the petitioner is questioning the sentencing guidlines, because this is his right.

But it doesn´t give him the right to trivialize the crime of viewing child porns by calling it „a victimless crime“ and by saying untrue things like „downloading and viewing child porn doesn´t promote child abuse anymore than viewing a murder or a car accident promotes“ .... !

Because thus he´s denying the fact that the child porns (that the consumers create the demand for) are the direct result of child abuse!!

No serious website, and especially no petitionsite, should allow anybody to publish statements like that. Unfortunately Care2 does.

Several members of the community have reported that petition and explained why it should be removed or at least edited.

Care2 doesn´t agree, saying the petitioner is just questioning the sentencing guidlines for child porns. Thus Care2 ignores all the other mentioned horrible statements of that petition that trivializes consuming child porns big time.

This is the link to the objectionable petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/744/157/032/using-logic-rather-then-fear-for-reasonable-sentencing-against-viewing-child-porn/ (don´t sign it accidentally)

If you think it should be banned by the responsibles of Care2 please sign here!

And if you want to let Care2 know that viewing child porns isn´t a victimless crime  write to mailto:ericc@care2team.com

1 year ago

By the way this was the ignorant answer of the so called Care2 support to my complaint about the child porn petition (received on October 29th) :

 

Hi Evelyn,

Looking at the petition, it does indeed classify it as a crime, it does not support Child Pornography and it does condemn the act.  It appears that this person is questioning the sentencing guidelines of this crime VS. that of physical assault.
Eric C.
Care2 Support
 
Not one comment about the statements of the petitioner in which he trivializes consuming child porns!!!! They have been completely ignored. As  if they wouldn´t exist. 
1 year ago

Evelyn I totally agree with you as you can see from my comment above.
Viewing is child abuse and I do not give a damn about the reason for doing so.
Anybody, even through curiousty, that visits these deplorable sites are culpable. For every viewing these child pornographers fill their coffiers.

The author of this petition says " it is like watching a murder" Yes it is but not in the way they meant. It is like watching the muder of a child's innocence. Being witness to a murder (unless you are an acomplice ) does not involve Intent. as veiwing child porn. does.
,
I was also surprised at some of the replies on this thread regarding sentencing. You do the crime you serve the timeand if that meand life Let it be a warning to others.

The murder of innocence  in such a vile way  is in my opinion a capital crime. All participants viewer, pornogrphy deserve harsh sentences.

With regard to Care2's response " Shame on them"

Thank you Evelyn for  your passioante and compassionate resonse to this Ignorant petition.



1 year ago


I think this is a serious error of judgement from Erc, Care2 Support.  There is no way that anyone could describe the viewing of child ponorgraphy as a 'victimless crime' and I'm appalled that he could think this petition is acceptable. I can only think that he did not read beyond the first few lines.

But signing it is not the way to protest about it, that just makes it look as though it has support. 

As Care2 Support has suggested, you can write to the author of the petition, although I very much doubt that would do any good.  And be warned that if you do write, the message goes out as though it was sent from your private email address - and believe me, there are many petition starters to whom you would never ever give that address. I speak from sad experience, before I realised that I would be flooded with emails from a couple of very unbalanced individuals.


Care2 Support often says that the best thing to do with inappropriate petitions is not to give them attention, but in this case I think that's just not good enough, this one reflects badly on Care2, and it should be removed.

I'd suggest contacting the Petition Site team directly to express your concern. If you would like their email address, please contact me.  Or post in that thread, as Thubten suggested.  As many of you no doubt know, I am no longer a member of the F&S group, or I'd do so myself. 

for starting the thread, Rose, and Evelyn for reporting this petition.



This post was modified from its original form on 13 Nov, 7:50
1 year ago

Hi Zen,

you suggest to contact the petitionsite team directly.

As you know from the discussion that I started weeks ago regarding that petition in the Amnesty International Group I already contacted Eric and some and a handful of other members (out of nearly 50.000 group members!) supported me and wrote to him too. You know that he ignored us, and that I forced him to answer and I even published his stupid ignorant answer in that thread. ( And finally the hosts told me to stop that discussion-thread)

So we don´t have to pretend that nothing happened. And you know that I asked people to support me in that fight against that petition, and that everybody of the great human rights acitivist disappeared! Instead of doing something openly, some people wrote me I should continue my fight and they would help me, if I would need help. And when I asked for help nobody did anything, besides writing messages to me, that they like what I do and they hate the petition. Instead of writing messages to me telling me I shouldn´t give up and keep them informed, people should have written to Eric and tell him how disgusting they find the petition.

Anyway what kind of autocratic system is that, in which we have to please and beg a boy called Eric to get rid of a sick petition that would be impossible on serious petitionssites like Avaaz an d change.org or any other serious website on the planet?

To be honest I find the fact that this whole theatre is going on since nearly four weeks now worse than the petition itself. And I´m sure that the bosses of Care2 don´t even know what their high-hended employee from the support team is doing. I´m not here to please a virtual support guy. He is there for us and not the opposite. He can be grateful that I brought all this disgusting and for Care2 embarrassing petitions to his attention. Because from now on I´ll bring all that scrap to the attention of the people outside of Care2. Because on other petitionsite people know what is wrong and waht is right from an ethical point of view. There I don´t have to fight for things that should be standard in a civilized society.

 

But however, Zen it doesn´t matter that you are no member of the F&S group anymore, you still could mail Eric that you think his judgement on that petition is a serious error, as you mentioned in your post. It doesn´t help to suggest others to write to him, if ou don´t write yourself. And we should stop to always apologize him, by saying "I can only think that he did not read beyond the first few lines". You can be sure that I and the few other members that have written to him (instead of only posting their concern), are intelligent enough to have brought the other sentences - the important ones - to Eric´s attention.

There is no excuse for Eric and so many other people here closing their eyes and not acting.

Is this community fighting for human rights and to make the world a better world, or is all this just a game in which we send little green stars, exchange some nice comments on each  other, collect butterflies and dream of a better world?

1 year ago


Hi Evelyn - you have no idea who I have or haven't written to. Nor do you understand how the site works, nor what my own situation here is.

In any event, I have no doubt that Care2 Support is reading this thread.


Eric - Care2 Support is the main (only) Support person for Care2.

The email address that I gave you is for the Petition Site team, which is different.

Anyone who wants to complain about the petition can put in a help request to Care2 Support at this link

http://www.care2.com/help/support/

or you can email Care2 Support if you have his address, or you can email the Petition Site team, I will give you the email address.


Or post in the thread in the Care2 F&S group.

Incidentally, the hosts of the Amnesty International group only told you to stop posting about inappropriate petitions in their group because they said that the correct place to post was in the Care2 F&S group, which is run by Care2 Support.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/feedback

1 year ago

I have alraedy supmited my complaint.`

Eveylen I do not know how well you know Zen. I personally have the upmost respect for her activism here on Care2.. I think you will find that you have so much in commen.

1 year ago

Evelyn, while I agree with your views about the petition, I am distressed at your comments toward those on this thread. You note that it "makes you sick" at how this petition is being discussed and that the discussion is "one you didn't want". If you wanted to steer the group to discuss the petition in a certain direction, you could have done so. You didn't, so members started their own discussion.

Being somewhat on the defensive now, I will just say that anyone reading comments from the various forums in this group or articles posted over time, can't help but see that we do NOT believe in statements like "child porn is a victimless crime" or the others you mentioned. But I would hope in this group, we wouldn't feel the need to defend ourselves.

My points in my initial comment from yesterday, following those of others, focused on the sentencing. As I said, the life sentence was not an issue with me. My view was the justice system needs to make the sentencing fair for all. If the viewer of child pornography gets life, so should the people who make and distribute the pornography. You do something that so harshly affects someone for a lifetime, so should you be affected for a lifetime.

As for Care2 itself, I have given up any belief that they are doing this site for anything more than business. I have seen too much here that doesn't support the way they advertise the site. I've never received any responses from them for any correspondence sent to them about issues or glitches, those continue. It's the members here who make the site, and most are truly caring.

And your last comments about "people closing their eyes and not acting" along with the ones questioning whether this is "just a game where we send little green stars...." , I would suggest that since you have no idea what each and everyone one of us do for our causes here, in our communities, and elsewhere, that you might refrain from making unfounded accusations just because everyone is not rallying to your particular petition the way you want them to.

1 year ago

Good morning everyone.

Upon looking at the petition, I am not seeing anyone diagreeing that child pornograohy is not inappropriate or illegal or anyone supporting or condoning the act. The petition is questioning the sentencing and punishments of this versus the actual physical abuse of a person and the creators of such materials. 

Personally I wouldn't sign it, but saying that they are "supporting perverts" or condoning the act is not stated on the petition. I don't think anyone is in favor of such treachery, but again, that is not what it says. I think they could have worded their petition a bit(or a lot) more carefully, but if you take issue with the wording of the petition, you can write directly to the petition author by clicking on their name next to "Sponsored By:" and let you feelings be known.

 This is what I got I from Eric
1 year ago

 Thank you Panda/Zen

 for all that you do

 Hugs

 Possum

1 year ago

 I have sent a message to Kyle Re His Petition.

 If he want to email he can as I will ignore it !

1 year ago

 Kudos to you Rose

 Hello Zen

 nice seing you here

 Cheers

 David

PLEASE NOTE!!!!!!!!!
1 year ago

I would like to say that I have the upmost respect for everybody who has written on this thread.
Each and everyone  are deeply committed human beings.

Whilst we must be able to hold our own opinion's and be able to express them, this must be seen to be done without fear of critism toward the individual personaly.  As group owner I shall not hesitate to remove a thread if comments get too personal

1 year ago


Well said, Viv. 

  Rose and David. 

1 year ago

I would say ask the victims what they think? What do the general public know about the life time suffering of sexually abused children. Many take their own lives through dipair and humiliation.

Althouhgt not  a victim of child pornography I was however sexually abused as a child and this also included voyeurism. It started at 12 until I finally left home when a kind aunt believed me that my Father was the abusing me.  The voyeurism when I discovered it made me a nervous wreck espicially when I found the various spy holes. Craftily consealed and engineered ( he was a precision engineer) The pain and mortifiction I felt as a developing teen was unbearable. The betrayal by sexual abuse has far reaching consequences and it took fifty years of my life to come to terms with it.

Chid pornogrpahy is also a type of voyuerism. think of the many children who know that they have been filmed in this way for the whole world to see, as well as the pain and suffering of pysical abuse, they know pictures and films are out there.

This is why I have zero tolerance for all forms of sexual abuse.

Like prostitution no end user (the John) no profit

No end user child pornogrphy (viewer) no profit.


As I said in the beginning maybe the ask the victims what they think.
Maybe the sentences for child abusers  should be voted for by survivors.

May I also say sorry for my numberous spelling mistakes etc on rereding my comments have noticed them.

1 year ago

 Vivien,

 I certainly don't care about your spelling mistakes !!!

1 year ago

hello everybody! i've just complain about the dreadful petition and I demanded to remove it. Thank you!

1 year ago

this is my message

Message:      hello! it is about this petition:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/744/157/032/using-logic-rather-then-fear-for-reasonable-sentencing-against-viewing-child-porn/

I think that it must be removed from care2, because in my opinion it is supporting child porn in a way, and I think it would be not allowed this, thank you

alicia

1 year ago
Stop petition that trivializes viewing child porn !
www.change.org
Please help to stop a petition on Care2 in which viewing child porns is called a “victimless crime“. Furthermore the author of the disgusting...
1 year ago

 signed

1 year ago

Signed and shared.

1 year ago

Victory!!!!

The petition has been closed at 53 signatures

Evelyn's petiiton gained 94 votes within a day and a half and still counting.


Well Done Evelyn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 year ago



Thanks Vivien - but I'm not sure that having Care2 close the petition is a victory - perhaps just a small one.  It still remains on the site, when it should have been removed altogether.

I think that once Care2 Support had made the initial decision not to remove it, Care2 was never going to go back on that - which is sad.
Closing it, but leaving it there, smacks of cowardice to me. It would have been more honourable for them to say "Sorry, we were wrong, and we have removed the petition altogether."
There is no shame in admitting that you made an error of judgement.

But kudos to you, Evelyn, for at least getting it closed.  I am sorry that you used Change.org, though - since they have 'sold out' I don't go there any more.

1 year ago

 Hi Zen/ Panda

 I didn't know that about change org

 I agree with this " There is no shame in admitting that you made an error of judgement."

 at least it is closed

 Hugs

 Rose

 

1 year ago

I agree it smacks of cowardice. As well as the anonymous e-mail that I received last night from the Care2team.

(I´m totally sure that it was written by you Eric, and you weren´t brave enough to sign. Somehow I can understand your feelings.) But what I can´t understand is that the writer of that e-mail suggested me an edited version of the sick child porn petition, which still included one of the horrible statements that I also quoted in my petition "...these people (child porn consumers) have shown no threat to anyone, never participated in any harmful action against children.." 

To suggest that version of the petition to me, and write to me that this will sure address and ease my concerns regarding that child porn petition is a shame. It shows that the person that sent this e-mail to me (and I´m sure it´s you Eric) didn´t read my petition properly, like he never read my e-mails before, and that he doesn´t understand at all, what we are complaining and concerned about!!!!

(O.K. I admit that the writer offered me to let him know if I think there should be made further edits.)

But still, that the most terrible statement of the child porn petition was again included in his suggested version prooves that the motivation for Erics offer has nothing to do with insight and understanding of our arguments. And also the fact that the petition is closed now is sheer opportunism and the fear that my petition is seen by more and more people which doesn´t make a good impression of Care2, and could cause trouble for Eric.

I ignored this e-mail, because it wasn´t signed and ridiculous.

Also it made me upset that the writer told me that he can´t close the child porn petition because it doesn´t violate the terms of service of Care2 !!! Well time to change the terms of service then !!!

Not to forget, that my petition against a homophobic hate petition that I started on Care2 in October was removed by Eric in less than 24 hours, in spite of the fact that it didn´t colide with their terms of service!!!

And this is exactly the kind of depotism of this autocratic support person, that should be stopped. My petition isn´t only against the child porn petition. It is also a wake up call to Eric, to show him that his voice doesn´t count more than any voice of a member. (I´m not talking about me personal).

I wanted to show him, that it wasn´t o.k. to ignore the e-mails that he received of me and some other members (weeks before this thread was started) regarding the child porn petition. And the arrogant ignorant answer he finally sent us, wasn´t respectful neither.

I demand a democratic working support team for the Care2 community, a support person which doesn´t put his opinion over the opinions of thousands of members. ( And Eric, I´m sure that your opinion on the child porn petition doesn´t even reflect the opinion of the owners of Care2. So from a professional point of view your decision was wrong too. Because to allow this sick child porn petition creates a very bad image of the company, which you may realize now after I started the petition. I promised you in my last e-mail that I´ll let public decide about that case.)

We are the folk(s), without us the members Care2 can´t exist. So the fundament of the realtionship between a online-community and its support team should be respect, justice, honesty and democracy. I feel all of it is missing.

And I found it by the way very despotic of the so called "support team" to deny my application for the support and feedback group, without any comment two weeks ago.

Only because I´m a pain in the ass and too critical for them. That shows also a big lack of backbones besides the other mentioned virtues.

 

So my conclusion is, till now the (all-in-one) support team didn´t understand my petition and the comments and concerns of the undersigners. Plus it doesn´t make democratic decisions and doesn´t treat the Care2 members with the respect they deserve.

Therefore I see no reason to stop my petition, and I would be more than happy if people would continue signing and sharing it.

 

Also I would like to thank Vivien and Rose big time ( is that too slangy?) for supporting the petition and allowing this thread. I admire you two a lot. 

 

And Zen I think I understand you better now 

 

1 year ago

Zen I would call it a Victory even if a token one to have gotten the petition closed. the total victory would have been to have it removed from Care 2.

Priror to seeing the above I have written to Evylen with the follwing suggestions i am sure she will not mind me copying it here as it is relevant to the discussion.

"I have given thought to the email you sent and would suggest the following:

As the Care2 petition team has responded even anoymously it is a open door and it is an opportunity to educate. The saying "you catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar" may be the best approach here.

I would send them this extract from the "National Center for Missing and Exploited Children:

"What Are the Effects of Child Pornography on the Child Victim?
It is important to realize that these images are crime scene photos – they are a permanent record of the abuse of a child. The lives of the children featured in these illegal images and videos are forever altered.

Once these images are on the Internet, they are irretrievable and can continue to circulate forever. The child is revictimized as the images are viewed again and again."


http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2451

As the child's life is affected forever the viewer is culpable in this crime and is deserving of the maximum sentence that can be imposed.

You state that the petition is not in breech of your terms and conditions
I  am sure this begs the question of many members of Care2 where does Care2 stand on moral and etical grounds.


Send them this and see there response.     

We can also consider a petion to Care2 members regarding issues with Care2 overall. "Such as what changes would you like to see on Care2"
or "What is your overall opion of Care2 and it's manaagement. Do you have issues."

Rather then attacking Eric directly I think a petition in the form of a feedback could be quite effect.

Tell me what you think to the above."



This post was modified from its original form on 21 Nov, 5:26
1 year ago

Vivien I can´t communicate with this person anymore. I can´t speak with a blind man about colours, it´s to much for me. Eric has received many e-mails from members telling explaining him all the aspects about child porn and conusming them. He ignored all the arguments by telling us, he can´t see any problem with that petition.

And that he suggested a changed version of the child porn petition which includes still the sentence "...these people (child porn consumers) have shown no threat to anyone, never participated in any harmful action against children.."   shows that he´s not getting the point.

Excuse me if a grown up person that received so many e-mails of people explaining him the horrible aspects of viewing child porns still doesn´t get the point, there are no excuses anymore. He´s not a child he´s a grown up man. And I don´t see criticizing this as attacking him. Contrary his blindness regarding that crime of viewing child porns is attacking everybody that has ethical values. In Europe he would be fired immediately. Zero tolerance for that. Imagine the discussion would be about another topic. For example a petition which trivializes domestic violence. And we would have to explain the support team a hundred times, why we think the petition has to be removed. Would we tolerate that? No we wouldn´t. So why are we tolerating that we have to fight for more than one month to get rid of this f...ing child porn petition?????? That we have to explain a grown up man what child porn is doing to children. It is absolutely unbelieveable!!!!!

 

We shouldn´t forget, that this sick petiton hasn´t been closed, because Eric understood what so many people tried to explain him for six weeks. It has been closed because of the embarrassing fact, that members of Care2 have to start a petition on a competitiors petitionsite to get rid of a disgusting petition. That´s a big difference and nothing to be graceful towards him. As I said above it´s sheer opportunism. The fact that I created public awareness  for the sick petitions that are possible on Care2 made Eric close it. And he changed it before he closed it, only for one reason. To make sure, that the people reading my change.org petition and clicking on the link of the disgusting child porn petition, can´t find a proof for the embarrassing case anymore. Change.org members from so many countries wrote me, that they can´t find the statements in the child porn petition that I criticized!!!  They don´t know that Eric changed it, before closing it! (It´s so cheap).Very clever Eric, but since I know you very well I made a screenshot of the original child porn petition (weeks ago) which I could send to all the change.org people that have contacted me.

I´m not attacking Eric, I´m just telling the truth. And sometimes truth hurts and is very ugly.

If he would play the game fair, he would have made it visible for the readers, that the child porn petition has been changed big time, instead of pretending in front of the change.org members that his modified version is the original version, which made me look like a liar. This is exactly the reason why he doesn´t remove the petition.

This background story alone is dynamite enough for my next petition on change.org.

 

Besides that Vivien I like your idea of asking members for a feedback regarding Care2 managment and their wishes.

 

Besides that

1 year ago

 "Evelyn you cannot speak to a blind man about colours"  well maybe you would have a better chance of doing see http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecture4.shtml re: synesthaesia
then talking to a person with a closed mind.

I also was looking for the link on the objectionable petition on your petition today and it was no longer there does that mean  that Care2 has removed the petition therefore the link is not available?



This post was modified from its original form on 21 Nov, 7:40
1 year ago

I have just removed the link of the child porn petition from my petition. Because people don´t understand that what they read now isn´t the original child porn petition, because it´s nowhere mentioned that it has been modified drastically, as I said. So when people contact me on change.org I can send them the screen shot of the original to let them know what the fight is all about.

 

1 year ago



I also noticed that the petition had been edited, and I think that is extremely wrong of them - to edit it but leave it up.  They should have put a note on it to say 'this petition has been edited by Care2 staff' or words to that effect.

But to remove all the objectionable content without saying that they have done so, and then leave the petition up, although closed, seems extremely dishonest to me.

That is also totally out of line with the policy of any news organisation - if a story goes out that is subsequently edited, they will always, without exception, state that a change was made to the original story.

It's good that you had the screenshots, Evelyn. 


That is the reason why you cannot edit a post in a group without a notice appearing to say that it has been edited. Otherwise you could post some horrible insults, and then when people responded, you would have 5 minutes to edit them all out and then pretend to be innocent, and there would be no proof that you had edited your post.

You can tell who wrote to you by looking at the email address - if it comes from the petition site team, then it is most likely not from Eric, Care2 Support.
I would be surprised if he had written to you anonymously. 

Please do not post any email addresses in this group, though, that is not safe to do because it is an open group.

Viv, there have been many petitions about the way that Care2 is run, but to my knowledge they haven't had much success at all. Some are removed by Care2, some not, but they don't seem to go anywhere. 

There were also a number of comments, suggestions and criticisms about Care2 and its support structure made on my blog before I changed its status to 'hidden' because I was tired of all the personal attacks - but not one of them appears to have had any effect on the way that things are run here. 

1 year ago

That is totally unetical and underhand of Care2 however I think they will cover their back by saying it was the petitioner that did the alteration and that he should have mentioned the editing.

Unfortunately with social newwork  sites once  they begin to grow and money starts to flow
the rot sets in. I am not as active as I once was on Care2. Much of my activisim is carried out on Facebook (which is also another autogratic site) this is because of its large audience bigger then Care2.




This post was modified from its original form on 21 Nov, 9:09
1 year ago

 OUTRAGEOUS

1 year ago

 Cheers Zen

 For the up date

1 year ago

With all due respect, please do not post petitions from Change.org! Have you read about them on Huffpo? The work for the Right: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/changeorg-corporate-gop-campaigns-internal-documents_n_1987985.html

 I saw this as a comment don't know muuch about change org

1 year ago

Hi David,

it´s funny that you have a problem with change.org because they allow anti abortion petitions. ( I´ve seen at least ten of them on Care2, but this is definitely freedom of speech, sorry to tell you. Therefore I didn´t fight against them.)

 

Shall I add a list of the NoGo petitions that are allowed on Care2?

 

Including the one promoting a right wing extremist, that has been sentenced as terrorist and massmurder last year in Oslo for killing 77 people (most of them teenagers) to show the Norwegian government, that he´s against Muslims in Norway and against the social democratic labpur party? I called the Norwegian ministry for justice and security myself to beg them to write an e-mail to Care2 to remove that petition!!!! They only closed it.

 

Do you want so see a screenshot of a petition asking in the headline "What´s about the good things Hitler did?", I again had to make sure that it disappears.

 

Or a petition in which a homophobic freak ecxplained the audience that two women that have been shot in Texas recently, didn´t deserve any better, because they were lesbians.

 

And we have actually one that asks to prohibit transsexuals in the female students restrooms!!!!

 

Not to forget the petition of a guy that petitioned against diaper discipline showing a male minor in diapers with spread legs. I didn´t even start to discuss that with our great support team and wrote an e-mail to the petitioner myself (thus having to show my private e-mail!) and told him that this picture is child pornography. He told me it´s not because we can´t see the face of hte boy. So I had to copy him legal texts and telling him that I´m going to sew him for that picture. In the end the sick guy removed the picture telling me that that I should be grateful for his great gesture.

 

And what´s about the child porn petiton which still would be here without a petition against it on change.org?

 

And these are only a few examples of at least 30-40  NoGo petitions that are allowed on Care2. Maybe it´s important to know that I found them in my only two moths of membeship here!!!!

 

If you are member on a website allowing all this, how can you ask not to post change.org petitions here?  We shouldn´t apply double standards, that would be Gaza-style

Also I think there shouldn´t be a competition between the communities of different petitionsites. Because all together we are really strong.

And anyway there are hundreds of petitions of change.org promoted and posted in all groups of Care2 petitionsite. For God´s sake, because they are really good and successful.

 

But thanks to your post, I know now that Huffingtonpost would be maybe interested to write about all that terrible petitions on Care2. Because I was thinking of making this public for weeks.

1 year ago

(quotation of Vivien´s post)

"That is totally unetical and underhand of Care2 however I think they will cover their back by saying it was the petitioner that did the alteration and that he should have mentioned the editing."

 

Hi Vivien, they can´t cover their back with that excuse, because in the e-mail that they´ve sent to me two days ago they wrote:

"....we have informed the author of edits made to the petition that remove the questionable language you reference in your petition." 

 



1 year ago

(quotation of Zen´s post)

"I also noticed that the petition had been edited, and I think that is extremely wrong of them - to edit it but leave it up.  They should have put a note on it to say 'this petition has been edited by Care2 staff' or words to that effect."

 

You are damn right Zen. But from their point of view they can´t tell the public that they have changed it. Because they want the public to believe that the edited version is the original and that there has been nothing wrong with it.

They fear this big embarrassment to admit that in their opinion there was nothing wrong with a petition calling child porn a victimless crime and worse statements. 

 

The ironical thing is, that  due to the lack of insight in our arguments and due to a lack of ethical values the person that had edited the petition allowed the sentence "...these people (child porn consumers) have shown no threat to anyone, never participated in any harmful action against children.."  in it.

So even the new and supershort version is still embarrassing for Care2 .... . (I hope I will not be censored from the holy Care2 God for using that Smiley called "no brain" at this point. It´s of course coincidental).

 

 

1 year ago

Evelyn,
David's post above was a copy of a comment he read he just forgot to put in the quotes.
This was not his opinion as he said "I saw this as a comment don't know much about change org " he was only passing the information on see http://www.care2.com/news/member/261547992/3487813  so don't shoot the messager



This post was modified from its original form on 22 Nov, 8:34
1 year ago

Evelyn kudos to you for your vigilence regarding petitions on Care2
 
Comment from Change.org Australian Director:

No political agenda, website activist campaigns just click

"Its Australian communications director Tony Robertson said there was "absolutely no political agenda". "We are proud of the fact we host petitions from all walks of life and all issues," he said. "People identify with issues these days more than they do with left or right politics. You can sign a petition about domestic violence, for example, and it doesn't matter what your politics are."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/no-political-agenda-website-activist-campaigns-just-click/story-fn59niix-1226486897507



1 year ago

"We shouldn´t apply double standards, that would be Gaza-style "
Explain please.

1 year ago

But he started his post with the warning " please don´t post petitons from Change.org! " ....

I thought this was his opinion and not a quotation. Then I missunderstood that.

 

Anyway I would never shoot David. There are only a few men in our group. And he´s one of the most active.

1 year ago

(Quotation of Vivien´s post)

" ..."We shouldn´t apply double standards, that would be Gaza-style "
Explain please."

 

I´m happy that you ask Vivien, because I wanted to edit that, but it was impossible.

I wanted to say Gaza-conflict-style. Because my impression is, that when Israel is bombing Gaza they always call it defense or anti terror actions. And when the Palestinians are bombing and fighting for their human rights, which are constantly violated since nearly hundred years now, Isreal and also Germany and the U.S.A. call it offense or terrorism.

That´s what I meant by saying we shouldn´t apply double standards, because this would be Gaza-conflict-style.

Maybe I mentioned that example for applying double standards, because I´m permanantly confronted with them during the last weeks, whenever I turn on the radio or the TV and they are broadcasting the news or political discussions. And I find it terribly unfair.

But this topic is really so complex, that I´m not able to discuss it in a foreign language.

I just can say I would sign every statement that Noam Chomsky made in his book "Fateful triangle. The United States, Isreal and the Palestinians."

Anyway it´s doesn´t belong into this group.

 

(Actually I was thinking last night, that I would like to open a "Middle East conflict" group. Maybe only for pro-Palestinian Jews and for pro-Jewish Palestinians.

But first of all I don´t have the experience how to host a group, and second I wouldn´t have the big amount of time that is needed to do that. Plus I find it very difficult to write everything in English, which I only learned in school more than 30 years back. Maybe someday someone will start a group like that here. Or maybe there is already one. I didn´t even check all activist groups on Care2.)



This post was modified from its original form on 22 Nov, 13:29
1 year ago

 Go  Girls

1 year ago

How do you mean that Rose ?  

1 year ago

The reason I asked the question Evelyn  was because it puzzled me, knowing you are not against the people of Palistine and you sympathise with their plight..  Upon reading the comment  one could have thought you were calling them duplictious.
Thank you for your comprehensive reply.   

With regards to opening the type of group you mentioned it would be time consuming,
What would be the focus of the group if you did open one? Support?  Discussion? Education?




This post was modified from its original form on 23 Nov, 2:15
1 year ago

 Hi All

 Evelyn I only posted that re Change org as it was a comment on the petition you started and was wondering why a care2 member mentioned change org.

Plus I signed it

 I know what Rose Means by 'go Girls as it is slang for great work in Australia

1 year ago

 Thanks David,

 For explaining what Go girls mean for me

 Evelyn as Vivien said David was only posting that comment as he saw it on the petition which he signed.

 Yes It does mean great work so I will say Go Girls again

1 year ago

Thank you David and Rose

 

Vivien, the focus could be to give Palestinians that suffer(ed) injustice done by the occupying forces a voice.

And start petitions for them and publish their experiences. Also about the everyday chicanery people have to face 365 days a year. Like the daily harrassment at the checkpoints. So many people lost their lifes for example  because they weren´t allowed to cross, when they needed to be transported to a hospital urgently.

Others lost their life during one of the countless curfews. Like the two babies in Hebron

( a newborn and a 3 months old) that should have been brought to the hospital, but the soldiers didn´t allow it. The babies died. The families never faced justice.

A spokesman of the military explained later, that the soldiers judged the situation wrongly. As simple as that. Outrageous!

There are thousands of stories of injustice. Many of them are described by Amira Hass ( an Israelite journalist) in her book "Gaza".

 

Or the horrible stories reported by Israelite soldiers that served in occupied territories, collected by an NGO called "Breaking the Silence" since several years.

This NGO collects material that proves the horrible violence and the heavy human rights violations committed against Palestinian children, many of them under 10 years of age.

One ex-soldier describes how his officer tried to shoot from 20 metres distance into the legs of a little boy, the soldier didn´t know why. And in that moment the little boy bent down to pick up a stone, so the bullet hit his head. The boy died two days later. (It also happened in Hebron, 2008). The murder has never been held responsible for that.

 

 

The focus also should be to spread the word about all that crimes that happen behind the scenes in that region. Because the media, especially in the U.S.A. and Great Britain, doesn´t tell the truth.

 

But if I would be a co-host in a group like that, I wouldn´t be able to work anymore.  

1 year ago

Thank you for sharing Evelyn, it was very sad to read your comment. Justice seems to have dropped the scales in our world and when people like Julian Assange try to let the public know the truth he  becomes a target to vilify.
 

1 year ago
'15,000 people turn out to march the whole breadth of the West End for Gaza in the rain and it doesn't even make the London page of the BBC website. That website's front page, though, does consider I'm A Celebrity's Nadine Dorries is to mee
t the Chief Whip one of the 13 most important stories in the world.' LONDON, 24TH NOVEMBER 2012 - MARCH & RALLY TO END THE SIEGE ON GAZA, FREE PALESTINE.

COMPLAIN TO THE BBC HERE - https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/?reset#anchor

COMPLAIN TO OFCOM HERE - http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/telecoms/tv-and-radiox/a-specific-programme/?itemid=353159

SUPPORT & SHARE THE PETITION - 'The BBC Trust: Hold a Public Inquiry into Pro-Israeli Bias' - http://www.change.org/petitions/the-bbc-trust-hold-a-public-inquiry-into-pro-israeli-bias?utm_campaign
=friend_inviter_modal&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=2066301


FURTHER READING - http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/11/19/273371/bicom/

http://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-assaults-gaza-bbc-reporting-assaults-truth/11894

IMAGE & DESCRIPTION BY HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGNERS
1 year ago

 THanks Vivien

1 year ago

Signed the petition. Thank you Vivien.

1 year ago

signed, vivien, gracias

1 year ago

 signed Vivien

ANOTHER IN-APPROPRIATE PETITION
1 year ago

PLEASE DO NOT SIGN THIS PETITION.
I HAVE WRITTEN TO THE SYRIAN COMMUNITY AND AM AWAITING THEIR STATEMENT TO POST TO THE CARE2 TEAM.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/189/920/780/?cid=FB_TAF

  • Target: United Nations Human Rights Council
  • Sponsored by: Care2.com
Parks ought to be a safe place for children to relax, but that hope was quelled for Syrian kids when a government-dispatched cluster bomb attacked a playground outside Damascus.

Consisting of at least 70 smaller explosives, the cluster bomb burst apart and killed ten children.

This appalling incident is not an isolated case showing Syria's lack of military control -- rebels have now begun forcing children into combat. Making children carry weapons and participate in attack missions are war crimes just as horrendous as rogue military attacks on civilians -- so why isn't anyone helping these kids?

As fighting intensifies in Syria, the government needs to put their foot down on civilian attacks and punish those who make children pawns in battle.

Tell the UNHRC to ensure Syria guards its children from military violence and combat involvement!
1 year ago

Here is  live link to the petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/189/920/780/?cid=FB_TAF

I have posted a copy of this petiton to my Syrian friends and they could not believe it.
Statements like the following need questioning.

"This appalling incident is not an isolated case showing Syria's lack of military control -- rebels have now begun forcing children into combat. Making children carry weapons and participate in attack missions are war crimes just as horrendous as rogue military attacks on civilians -- so why isn't anyone helping these kids?

As fighting intensifies in Syria, the government needs to put their foot down on civilian attacks and punish those who make children pawns in battle."

HOW THE HELL CAN CARE2 SPONSOR THIS PETITION.
THEY NEED TO CHECK THEIR FACTS!!!!
AS FOR ASKING A SYRIAN GOVERNMENT( WHO IS DAILY SLAUGHTER INNOCENT CHILDREN ) TO PUT THEIR FOOT AND PUNISH THOSE WHO MAKE CHILDREN A PAWN IN BATTLE. 
WHAT THE HELL IS CARE2 THINKING OF TO MAKE A PETITION LIKE THIS?????????

1 year ago

    AMAZING

1 year ago

 will not sign

1 year ago

 I will not be signing this

 Cheers

1 year ago

quotation Vivien: "HOW THE HELL CAN CARE2 SPONSOR THIS PETITION."

 

Vivien I told you they allow and support everything. As long as it creates signatures!!

 

People in this community have to understand, that Care2 earns money by clicks. The more signatures the more money. Because thus the companies publishing advertising on the website Care2 think they reach a bigger audience.

It´s the same in the print media business. The more readers a newspaper has the more expensive is every centimeter of space in the newspaper for companies that publish their advertising their.

 

I believe that´s also the reason why Mark Zuckerberg allows all this terrible groups on Facebook. People that publish animal cruelty pictures and videos, or the "Dead Baby Jokes" Group, the "CAncer is funny" Group, the Anti Aborigines Group or even child pornography.

 

But Care2 isn´t any better. For me it´s even worse, because they (ab)use millions of people like us, that want so desperately to make this world a better world, to create clicks. They are hiding a greedy business idea behind all this "non-profit"-fake petitionsite construct.

At least Mark Zuckerberg isn´t doing this. His business idea is very obvious and openly to see for everybody profit orientated. That´s at least honest.

 

Didn´t people on Care2 never wonder that why they don´t see advetising banners in every corner of the page on petitionsites like change.org, Avaaz.org, gopetition.com, forcechange.com.

Only on Care2 there is advertising everywhere.

 

If the "real" goal of the owners of a petitionsite is to earn money by selling advertising space as expensive as possible, they supoort of course every petition. Why shouldn´t they (from their point of view.)

 

Last week I found a petition of fanatic Azerbaijanians that explained in their petition, that it was correct to kill an Armenian activist that is fighting for independency of the Armenians.

And this fanatic rascist Azerbaijanians that started the petition even announced that they will kill as much as possible Armenians until they give up their fight for independance.

I wrote one of my countless e-mails to the world famous Care2 team, telling them that the petition is gloryfying genocide and also it´s denying the genocide committed by the Turkish against the Armenians, in which between one and tow millions of people died in the world war. Of course Care2 didn´t answer.

As I said at the beginning of the thread, I used to find these NoGo-petitions daily on Care2.

But I gave it up to fight against them.

The only thing I regret is, that I singed 2300 petitions in my two months of membership on Care2. Thus creating more clicks for them than most members in several years.

I promised myself not to do it anymore. But once in a while I come back on Care2 and sign 100 petitons in a row. It´s like a drug. Somehow I feel guilty if I don´t sign the petitions.

 

On Avaaz for example you can´t browse petitions like here. Only the brand new petitions are visible. On Care2 I work my way through twelve months of petition in 9 different sections (that´s the only thing that I really like about Care2). But Avaaz promised to change that, after I asked them about a possibility to browse through a list of all their existing petitions. They are really interested in suggestions of the memebers. Other than here. And on change.org, you receive an answer to your questions in maxium three days. And after sending you an answer, they send you even an e-mail in which they ask you, if all your problems have been solved.

It´s a totally different concept.

That´s because they work for the petitioners and undersigners, and not for the advertisers.

1 year ago

 Evelyn,

 You have made great points here

1 year ago

Thank you Evelyn. Sometimes I think if it was not for this group that I feel passionately about I would leave Care2.

You have spelt it out Care2 may have started as a caring social network but greed raised it's ugly head.

Will contact Care3 once i have the staement from the Syrian community.

Please click on Vivien to note or comment.
1 year ago
Syria: Step Up and Protect Your Children - DO NOT SIGN THIS PETITION!!!!!!!!!


World  (tags: 'HUMANRIGHTS!', corruption, death, middle-east, violence, world, politics )
Vivien - 39 minutes ago - thepetitionsite.com

This petition is very questionable for a number of reasons. "I CALL ON CARE2 TO ISSUE THE SOURCE OF THEIR INFORMATION Rebels making children carry weapons and participate in attack missions are just as horrendous as rogue military attacks on civilians"
1 year ago

missed the posts related to syria's petition

1 year ago

This is a reply from one of the Syrian Community actists.
"
Helen D.(0)

Wednesday December 5, 2012, 5:24 am
Wow, what a petition!! and what a shame that anyone would even consider this utter rubbish. I have been working as an activist for the Syrian revolution and find this petition very hurtful!! The Syrian people are in NO WAY using children in the FSA, a few pictures of children holding a gun after their parents have been massacred, wrong I agree, but in no way means children are being involved in ANY WAY in the FSA's fight for freedom!! This is a great mistake, and I will be rallying today to make sure that this petition is removed. It's completely wrong information, and sadly gives an impression to the world that only Bashar's murderous Regime could possibly benefit from, Info from the Regime????? Possible in my opinion, and us activists DEMAND an explanation!!!!!
 


Helen D.(0)

Wednesday December 5, 2012, 5:29 am
A petition to stop Bashar's daily massacre of children would be much more appropriate, snipers shooting children even trying to escape the non-stop bombardment of civilian areas, Assads bombardment of refugee camps a few days ago..a petition about that?? Children dying of the cold in the refugee camps in Jordan, 5 so far!! a petition about that??? This is unacceptable in my opinion, and must be stopped. I had respect for this organization, but thy need to get their facts right,and there are so many petitions that should be created, THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM!!"

1 year ago

Helen has created a counter petition

Stop This Petition Full of Lies and Distortion!!! Please Action


World  (tags: 'CIVILLIBERTIES!', 'HUMANRIGHTS!', humanrights, freedoms, corruption, ethics, death, middle-east, politics, violence, war )
Vivien - 32 seconds ago - thepetitionsite.com

Because Care2 have misinformed the public, children are not being used by the freedom fighters in Syria, and we, activists for the Syrian Revolution demand to know their source, sounds like Regime propoganda!!
1 year ago

 I noted your story Vivien Thank you

1 year ago

Signed.

1 year ago

Quotation Viven:

"we, activists for the Syrian Revolution demand to know their source, sounds like Regime propoganda!!"

 

Vivien the source is mentioned in the petition, it´s Human Rights Watch. You can read all about it, when you press the blue link in the petition, or maybe you can use this one:

 HRW reports that armed forces have also been caught forcing children into combat.

 

 

1 year ago

I find it very difficult to judge on something like that.

 

We are all biased, beause we are human beings.

If I can imagine that Human Rights Watch is giving us wrong informations,

I have to be fair and keep in account that freedom fighters iin Syria are also able to lie.

 

I have been in too many Arab countries not to know that people there are not selfcritical at all. Whatever I told people (most of them men) about my problems that I faced as a single female traveller in Arab countries, the people just said "no, it´s not true, this doesn´t happen in our country, it must have been a foreigner doing this to you".....and so on. It made me sick. 100 times a day I have been harassed by men in the streets, in the hotels even by policemen ( in spite of wearing long sleeves, and a loose long shirt over long pants, and wearing my hair like a nun). Some men even touched me, several followed me, and most of them made at least bad  and dirty comments. But everybody I told about my experiences said, it´s impossible we Egyptians, or we Jordanians or Emirates don´t do that.

Also I had many discussions with Arab men and about sexual abuse of children. They continue telling that this crime exists only in Western countries. There men abuse children and very often their own children sexually. But in Arab countries this kind of crime doesn´t exist!!!!!  What a big lie!!!! Everybody that is a little bit involved in Arab society knows that there are hardly any girls that haven´t had this kind of  experiences with male family members at some point in their lifes. The only difference between the men in Western countries and the ones in Arab countries is, that Arab men just don´t admit that child abuse exists in their country.

 

The reason for making this big "excursion" to other topics here is, that these examples show that there is a tendency in Arab countries not to admit bad things that happen in the society. Especially men are to patriotic and to proud to admit mistakes and bad things happening in their country, city, village or group.

I can imagine that there are maybe a few cases - and that these cases are maybe really exceptions- in which boys under 18 have been involved in the fight of freedom fighters.

It happens and happened in so many other countries all over the world. Why should it be impossible in Syria? Syrians are not holier than other people, they are just human beings. And it´s common that in wartimes things happen (on both sides) that shouldn´t happen.

And maybe some of the boys haven´t even been forced to fight, they more likely wanted to join the older guys in their fight. That would be very normal and understandable.

And a handful of cases like that is enough for the single-minded media, to tell the whole world, that Syrian freedom fighters force their poor children into combat.

Also I can imagine that the Syrian government has paid some boys to tell the members of the Human Rights Watch groups faked stories. Things like that happen too.

But I would be careful to say, that everything that has been reported to Human Rights Watch by the boys that they quote in their article (that I mentioned above) is a lie. And no activist in the world can speak for every corner of whole Syria. And no activist can speak for every single freedom fighter in Syria. That´s an illusion.

If I´m questioning what Human Rights Watch is saying about children being forced into combat, I have to be fair and objective enough to question what freedom fighters say.

There might be truth in the stories of both sides and there may be lies on both sides.

 

And the most important thing when trying to find out the truth is not to be biased, I think.

Of course I´m on the side of the freedom fighters. But this shouldn´t mean that I believe blindly everything they say.

I´m a big fan of revolutions. In spite of that I´m aware of the fact that some revolutionists (or I would say the most of them) have committed some very bad crimes, which are against there own principles. Even the wife of Mandela has been responisble for the killing of more than 10 people. And I´m sure all her followers and fans would have said it´s not true and it´s impossible. But it´s not. Also Gandhi, which I really like, had a time in his life in Southafrica when he was fighting on the side of the Britains against the indigenious Zulus. Which was a big injustice. A terrible crime.

So even people fighting in general for good things are doing mistakes.

And before I say it´s impossible that in some parts of Syria minors have been involved in the fight I would need much more informations. An activist saying "people in Syria would never do this to their children" isn´t a neutral person. Plus as I said, he or she can never speak for all freedom fighters in Syria. I´m sure that she believes what she says 100%, but it´s not an objective enough statement. Because she is emotionally very involved in the whole conflict and she can´t have inforamtions about the whole country. The stories happening in a war sometimes turn out years later.

 

But besides that, I agree that the petition should be stopped. And more trustable neutral informations should be collected.

1 year ago

By the way, I think that´s a good petition to sign:

 

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/613/498/964/stop-civilian-deaths-in-cia-strikes/     

Petition has been amended.
1 year ago



Care2 have already amended the petition, although they do not say a word about it.  I am stunned that it is possible to amend a petition that people have already signed, without any need to point out that the petition as originally posted (and signed) has been amended. Nor are they honest enough to post on Vivien's story that they have made changes, or even to tell those of us who complained. At least I have no seen any word from them in response to Viv's story or the other petition.

I find this most unprofessional, unethical - and dangerous as well. Anyone could set up a petition calling for people to save seals, and then after the signatures are in, change it to a petition calling for mass murder, or whatever..


They have rewritten both the sections that Vivien and I both complained about.

Originally they blamed rebel forces for forcing children into combat, and there was no link to the Human Rights Watch report,

and they were calling on the government to take action, but now they call on the UNHRC



This is what originally appeared in the petition: I have coloured the changed sections in red:

This appalling incident is not an isolated case showing Syria's lack of military control -- rebels have now begun forcing children into combat. Making children carry weapons and participate in attack missions are war crimes just as horrendous as rogue military attacks on civilians -- so why isn't anyone helping these kids?

As fighting intensifies in Syria, the government needs to put their foot down on civilian attacks and punish those who make children pawns in battle.

And here is the amended version that you see now:

This appalling incident is not an isolated case showing Syria's lack of military control -- HRW reports that armed forces have also been caught forcing children into combat.

Making children carry weapons and participate in attack missions are just as horrendous as rogue military attacks on civilians -- so why isn't anyone helping these kids?

As fighting intensifies in Syria, the UNHRC needs to put their foot down on civilian attacks and hold anyone forcing children in battle accountable for their actions.




This post was modified from its original form on 05 Dec, 22:57
1 year ago

 Thank you Zen,

 for this up date you are a whiz

1 year ago



  Possum!

Viv is greatly to be thanked for bringing this to our attention, and getting Care2 to act so speedily to amend the petition.  

I see I was wrong when I said that they had not bothered to let Viv or us know - I should have checked more carefully before I posted, and I apologise.  There is a post from someone, presumably Care2 staff, on Viv's original story, stating that the petition has been amended or to use their rather strange word 'clarified'. I guess that's because they don't want to admit that they were in the wrong. 

http://www.care2.com/news/member/261547992/3495302

I'm very glad that they did this, but not happy with the way it was done - and extremely unhappy that a petition can be amended by the author after it has been signed. That makes a mockery of all petitions, imo, how can people trust the Petition Site if this can happen.

I hasve created this petition, please click on vivien so you can note it.
1 year ago
1
THE ETHICS OF ALTERING A PETITION WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING IT. Please Action


Society & Culture  (tags: ethics, abuse, rightseducation, dishonesty )
Vivien - 28 seconds ago - thepetitionsite.com

Do you know that you can sign a petition on Care2 and it can be altered without acknowledging this fact? This is totally unethical and it is questionable with regards to it's legality once signatures have been added.
1 year ago

Evelyn i understand where you are coming form and in this world where we get dso many mixed messages it is hard to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
Have signed the petition.
Zen thank you for all you have done to help in this matter.
Let us hope that Care2 membership will respond to our "Ethical" petition.

1 year ago

Signed.

I can´t find anything ethical in the Care2 business conduct anyway. From my first day here, and it never became better. 

 

It´s a pity for the dedicated people in that group.

It went to front page
1 year ago

  Congratulations! The Care2 Community has promoted your submission to
the Care2 News Network Front Page.


News: THE ETHICS OF ALTERING A PETITION WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING IT. Please action


In recognition for this outstanding achievement, you've
also been awarded a "Golden Note".







Thank you for contributing to the Care2 Community!



- The Care2 Team

1 year ago



That's great news, Viv, good for you. 

I can't see it on the front page, though, although I've cleared out my cache and refreshed the page several times. I hope it shows up soon so I can get a screenshot.

1 year ago

Please can you send me  a copy of the screen shot on the original petition you contested . 

This of course is the edited one. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/744/157/032/using-logic-rather-then-fear-for-reasonable-sentencing-against-viewing-child-porn/

1 year ago



So the Care2 censorship machine swung into action and blocked your story from the front page.

How childish and stupid.  I thought that Care2 were better than this.

Suppressing criticism does not make it go away.

1 year ago

To be quite honets Zen I thought they would suppress it before making it "Front Page"
and giving me a golden note. Obviously it is automaticaly generated but having the email is proof that it should have been on the front page.

Thank you so much for all your support it is a giant effort really. You raised the question and I followed with petition and news article. It is too easy for Care2 to sweep things under the carpet and ignore awkward questions hence my bringing it right out in the open.

1 year ago

No Vivien, it´s not easy for Care2 to sweep there unethical way of doing business under the carpet, when we start your petition on another petitionsite.

Therefore I didn´t start my petition against the Care2 child porn petition on Care2. they would have removed it anyway, like they did in other cases before.

 

You should start your petition on change.org, thus Care2 receives with every signature an e-mail, and will for surely send you an anonymous e-mail in shich they suggest a compromise. Like they did in my case.

They can´t afford too many petitions on other petitionsites which inform a greater audience about their way of treating members.

Please start you petition on change.org. I will be the first who signs it, and I´m sure the members of our group too. And we all will share it with friends.

Don´t give up now, the battle has not even started ..................

 

 

(information for the peace activists among us: slingshots are even allowed by Mr.Gandhi  ... )

1 year ago

I just discovered another story about the business practice of Care2.

Read and sign this (it might be closed soon, because it´s an older petition) :

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/360/170/778/what-happened-to-the-butterfly-donation-logistics-to-save-animals-from-death-row/

And again Care2 didn´t answer the questions of the members!!!!!

I´m really nearly at a point, where I collect all the dirty little stories that I have seen on Care2 and find a good Amercian journalist or someone like Michael Moore, that would be willing to write a book that is telling the truth about Care2.

Of course the screenshots of all the disgusting petitions allowed by Care2 would be inside of that book.

 

(Vivien I need your e-mail address to send you the screenshot of the originial child porn petition.... I sent you a message with my e-mail address already.)



This post was modified from its original form on 08 Dec, 18:42
1 year ago

 Eric,

 Has not said anything in the Fand S group

1 year ago

Evelyn please can you check on the petition you created on Change.org

I would like to know if it can be edited.

1 year ago



This group is wide open, even to non-members of Care2, so I'd suggest you remove your email address, Viv, or you'll be inundated with spam.


Evelyn, I don't want to go into detail here, but I'd advise you to be wary of taking that petition at face value. You need to know a little more about the site and about the members here than you do.

Although I have always spoken out when I feel that things need improving here, or go against my beliefs, I have no intention of being part of a genuine witch-hunt against Care2.

1 year ago

reposted from above without email address.
"

Evelyn at this stage I do not want to start a petition on another site that may be doing the same thing,  I will however  (when I get the time) be checking out other petition sites regarding  the ability to alter petitions.

I did send you an email as soon as you asked for it. Ihave since resent it.

Signed the petition you posted. Yes I know about this one also.

Lets take one issue st s time."

1 year ago

Thank you Zen I had forgotten that this is not a closed group.

I also agree with Zen I do not want to get into a pitch battle with Care2.
Whilst there may be many issues that need resolving there are also good things within Care2.
Why become an antagonist I would rather settle things in a reasoned manner. People will see what they want to see ragarding my petition and news article, some will see it as provocitive, others will see it for what it is a simple statement and request to close a loophole.

1 year ago

 I agree with you Vivien

1 year ago

 Kudos you Vivien

 Cheers

1 year ago

(quotation of an email I received today)

 

Hi Evelyn -

Your application to the Care2 Feedback and Suggestions on Care2
was not approved.

Group Home:
  https://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/derefer?TYPE=3&DEST=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.care2.com%2Fc2c%2Fgroup%2Ffeedback

Thank you,
The Care2 Feedback and Suggestions group hosts

 

Wow it took Mr. E... nearly four weeks to send me this e-mail. I knew after 24 hours that my appliction for the group was declined. That was one of the reasons for starting my petition against the child porn petition on another platform. But I´m happy to have the proof for Mr. E...´s  inability to accept criticism and his lack of chutzpah now black on white.

 

(I wonder what you would do Mr.E... if I would tell you that I´m a Pro-Palestinian Jew, in addition to the crime of having criticized your autocratic behaviour.  Close my account???     )

1 year ago

 Sorry Evelyn

1 year ago

congrats vivien and signed evelyn (E's group does not deserve you!)

1 year ago

signed helen's petition, gracias

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