I am wondering WHY it was ok with so many churches to accept the change that the Roman Catholic church made regarding the Sabbath day worship. They changed the 7th day to the first day to keep holy.
Now, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it, so why is it ok to not follow the 4th commandment of God, when God says if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
I have been going to a bible prophesy seminar at a 7th day adventist church for the past month, and this Sunday worship at most churches does not feel right to me anymore. It was the Pagans that worshipped the sun god on Sunday, and this is where it came from.
From what I understand, tradition took over, and most worship now on Sunday, including myself, but it feels wrong since Jesus put this day of worship into the 10 commandments. I don't know what I am going to do about it. It is tormenting me to a degree. I don't think man should go above the bible to make this change.
This may sound odd but Sunday always seemed like the 7th day of the week to me. I guess it is because Monday is the 1st day back to school or work for most. Then there is the old blue laws where stores are closed on Sunday. That makes Saturday a shopping day for working people.
I find it confusing too when I think about keeping the sabbath holy. I cannot do nothing when I have living beings to care for. I don't go out to work, but I do go to a few church pantries that fall on the sabbath, and, the church with the seminar is one of them.
Here's the link to an article of a bible study from my church:
Thank you Martha, it is very interesting. I am going to go to sleep now, and finish reading tomorrow. I got pretty far though. It keeps getting so interesting but my eyes are burning now.
You're welcome, Belle. I'm glad I could help.
First let's look at the 7th day adventist church teachings....
There are many differences between SDA doctrine and Christianity.
The primary one is that they reject the idea that salvation is by grace alone through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. SDA doctrine is that His death and shed blood only paid part of the price. We have to keep the Old Testament law to finish the work. If you fail to keep the law you are not saved. In fact only as you keep the law and are seen to be righteous then is your sin gradually blotted out.
(The Bible teaches us "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:7-9)
The SDA also hold to the blasphemous doctrine that Satan plays a role in our salvation. Jesus has taken our sins but God has not forgotten them. The sins will be placed on Satan who will bear them away. THEN we will be free of them.
(The Bible tells us that the LORD hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6 and in the NT Peter tells us: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: I Pet 2
Another key false doctrine is that we cannot know for sure that we are saved. We can only know it for sure when we have died. (Paul said: I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved,.." and ". . Christ."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1 13 and "Nevertheless the foundation standeth sure, The Lord
Lord knoweth them that are His" II Tim 2:17)
By this we can determine that the SDA preaches another gospel and therefore is to be rejected by true Christians. (ITim 1:3-4 " I besought thee. . that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. and That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; )
Just one more comment. One of the ways I've learnd to KNOW when the message I'm posting is truth and NEEDED is when Satan opposes the posting of it... In trying to get this post up it has taken me almost 49 minutes!!! It wasn't th e normal care2 garbage of things disappearing when you try to post it or that such...
No, I couldn't even get things to copy or paste right. several times the scripture pastes disappeared or came out something entirely different!!
Satan did NOT want this posted. He cannot stand when his false doctrines are refutd by the word.
When we find this much false doctrine in a denomination's teachings we should throw dust on it and get out of town!!! But I'll still go on about this Sabbath teaching. It is a bondage to confuse and worry honest children of God!!
Let’s consider the concept of Shadow and Reality…
The OT practices and laws were a ‘shadow’ of the reality that came in Christ. Depending on where one stands their shadow can be an accurate reflection or it can be warped and twisted.
For that reason we don’t look at the “Shadow” (in this case the old testament laws and practices.) We look at the reality that is in Christ. The importance of the Shadow is indeed diminished in the face of reality.
In some cases you could look at MY shadow and think I was slim and svelte, but if you saw the reality-ME, in the flesh-you would understand the error of the shadow. If you didn’t have ME standing there talking with you, well then the shadow would be your best option. But you cannot prefer the SHADOW over the REALITY. The same goes for Christ and the 'shadows' in the Old Testament laws and practices.
If we say we aren’t bound to observe the ‘sabbath’ (on Saturday) we might also ask why aren’t we bound to make the sacrifices of sheep and goats. If one was fulfilled in Christ so was the other. Why aren’t we going in and slitting the throats of Sheep and Goats on Saturday?
We cannot pick and choose to observe some of the old laws and not others… When Christ says he ‘fulfilled the Law” he did just that. ALL of the Law was fulfilled. It was finished. Now we live under the law of grace.
Paul said: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6)
If you allow yourself to be bound by these false teachers who insist that we are to ‘keep the Sabbath’ then you are bound by the WHOLE law. And if that is true, then Paul tells us: 4” Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen
from grace.” Gal. 5:4
Donna, you and I have spoken many times of the dangers of listening to every ‘ prophet and teacher’ and religious doctrine we run across. You have gronw in the Lord in the congregation yu have been attending. This 7th day group is an instrument of Satan to draw you away. Get out of it RIGHT NOW
This post was modified from its original form on 30 Nov, 11:16
Thank you Vondi,
I was aware of the idea that if we were to follow one law, then we are bound by the law, BUT, I was also thinking that we are still suppose to follow the 10 commendments. or are we? It is in the 10 commandments.
According to their paper work, they say we are saved by Grace through faith. I haven't heard that Satan is playing a part in our salvation. I don't think I would forget that.
One thing that stuck in my mind was that there are no 7 years of tribulation, but there will be a second coming of Christ, and that when we died, our spirit alone goes back to God, but the body rests in the grave waiting for the second coming, and that is when the dead in Christ shall rise, and they will be changed into the new body.
They ALL say that Christ blesses those that keep his Sabbath holy, and they said it was changed by a Constantine. They said the Catholic church had no right to change the Sabbath to Sunday. They also said that one of the beasts is the Roman Catholic church.
I am not going tonight. OH, I don't recall us having to follow the old testament law to be saved. I mean everyone. I'll reread this again, and thanks. That Saturday thing is upsetting me.
Sorry I said this backwards or something: "If we say we aren’t bound to observe the ‘sabbath’ (on Saturday) we might also ask why aren’t we bound to make the sacrifices of sheep and goats".
It should read: "If we say we are bound to observe the ‘sabbath’ (on Saturday) we might also ask why aren’t we bound to make the sacrifices of sheep and goats."
Jesus said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt 22:37-40
Now how does that relate to obeying the ‘letter of the law’? (that is 'keeping the sabbath in particular.) He said. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
What does that mean? Obviously it indicates that all of the Law—including the ten commandments—is connected to these two: Loving the Lord with every fiber of our being and our neighbor as our self. And not just 'connected to' but dependent on the.
When we love the Lord with every fiber of our being, we will worship Him in Spirit and in truth-- ALL of the TIME, EVERY WHERE we go. Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4 that the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The Jews had to go to the temple to worship. They had to go on the Sabbath. They had to observe the Sabbath on Saturday. There was no other way laid out to worship. It was necessary to meet with the priests and make their sacrifices.
But now HE is our sacrifice, our priest, our altar.
Heb. 10 8 - he (Christ) said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he (Christ), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.. . .But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;. . . For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Now we don’t have to go to ‘Sabbath’ gatherings, we can worship in spirit and truth. Our high priest lives and works within us!! 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;And having an high priest over the house of God; [We can] draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;
I am blessed just studying on this!!! How great is our Salvation!
Why don’t we have to observe the old Sabbath? Because Jesus is our High Priest. We don’t have to go to a temple to ‘meet with Him’ as the Jews did. We go to church services to meet with the other members of the body. We meet with Christ every single day any time we need to communicate with Him. He’s only a breath or heart beat away!
For us He entered into the holiest place--heaven itself! Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; (Heb. 9:24)
Christ didn’t go into the temple; He went straight into heaven and we are told he sits there on the right hand of God making intercession for us!!! Why should we go back to being bound by the Old Law when we have such Glory surrounding us.
When ever we find our selves confused, worried, questioning, upset about some doctrine we can pretty well depend on the fact that the doctrine is NOT of God. The leading of God makes us feel condemned (guilty, if you like) but it never makes us confused or worried or anxious.
Well, I feel better now. sort of. What you say is all true if God said we do not have to follow the 10 commandments. I don't quite get the fact that the first 2 commandments are the most important, and if we follow them, then we have covered the rest. Of course if we love out neighbor as ourselves, we will not steal from them, or lie to them, BUT, how does these actually relate to the 4th commandment about keeping the sabbath day holy???
What makes me suspicous to a degree is the emphases put on this one particular thing about Saturday. I told them that I always think of the seventh day as Sunday, especially since Monday always felt like the first day. It is the first day back to work, and also the first day back to school. They discussed this stuff in my church a little. Actually, the Pastor asked for opinions about it, and most people said they felt they could work ANY 6 days, and rest on the 7th, OR keep it holy. I thought about that, and then thought these are just opinions, but what counts is what Jesus had to say about it.
Are the 10 commandments considered the Mosaic law? I mean since Moses brought them down to the people on tablets.
When Jesus said he came to not abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. This is what would be said to me if I challenged this. Oh I ask a few questions here and there, but I tread softly as I am a guest in their house.
This is going to end with one day a week in December.
I started to mention that I was uncomfortable with so much emphases on Sabbath, as I was uncomfortable and suspicious about why JW's are so bent out of shape about God's name not being in some bibles. These obcessions make me wonder about things.
OHHHHHHHH, something else.... When the JW's come to the door, they always bring up the comma's in the bible. The one where Jesus said to the thief "I tell you today that you will be with me in Paradise. NOW......
The Pastor said back in those days they left out the commas. He said it HAS to mean that Jesus was telling him this stuff TODAY, that it could not have meant that he will be with him in paradise today since Jesus would not be in Paradise today. He still had to make the trip to Hell. WHICH leads me to something else. .......
He said that when we die, we sleep in grave, spirit goes back to God, but we are not moving about up there. He said we are waiting for Jesus to return for us. Also, we PERISH since the wages of sin is death, IF, we are not saved. The eternal torment that is suppose to go forever and ever is wrong. This is what the Pastor said.
Also he said once saved, always saved is wrong. Jesus mentioned blotting someones name out of the book of life.... I actually would not put my faith in the once saved doctrine anyway, as that would be a dangerous practice.
I was just reading this.
It should read: "If we say we are bound to observe the ‘sabbath’ (on Saturday) we might also ask why aren’t we bound to make the sacrifices of sheep and goats."
I think an answer might be given to me that the killing of goats and sheep are not a part of the 10 commandments.
Does the Jewish days (for instance their Monday being our Sunday) pertain to Gentiles? Even though we are to keep the Sabbath Holy some people have no choice but to work on that day. Myself included when I was working.
I've never heard about The Jewish day being Monday. I always heard it was Saturday. Anyway, regarding having no choice about working on the Sabbath, you DO. I attend a non-denominational church that has their services on Saturdays and none of the us work on that day because as the 4th Commandment says,
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Of course, there might be a conflict with the boss about it to the point of losing your job, but if we put all your trust in God, He WILL come through for you. Also, we observe the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, like in the Hebrew calendar, instead of midnight to midnight, the way the Julian calendar has it.
Martha, I thought it was Saturday too but I misread what Donna wrote so that's why I said Monday. I was curious about that. God has always taken care of me even though I was obligated to work on Sunday most weeks. My bills won't wait unfortunately.
Here's another link:
The ten commandments are often referred to as the Mosaic law…They were the first of the laws given to the Israelites. Many were added afterward. Some were from the Lord others were made up by the scribes and other congregational leaders. Jesus referred to this in Matthew the 23 chapter when he said. The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
He was there referring to the ‘laws’ the scribes and Pharisees, the leaders of the temple, had composed to suit their own uses.
Donna asked how the fourth commandment was fulfilled in the two greatest that Jesus repeated: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart soul and mind and thy neighbor as thyself. The fourth commandment is the one about Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...The Sabbath was designed as a day of worship and a time to commune with God.
If we Love God with all of our being. We will keep the Sabbath every day because our sinning is finished, we have spiritual rest constantly. We have daily communion with Him. We need not come into a temple to worship and offer sacrifices. We have offered to Christ the 'sacrifice' of our entire life. We are continually offering the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name(Heb. 13:15) Our very life for Christ has become a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, II Cor 2:14
Now as far as the rest goes: As I said before, Jesus told us He came to fulfill the Law
If he did that then WHY are we bound by the old laws? We eat all kinds of meat including pork. The animals are butchered in slaughter houses that are far from the Jewish laws of handling meat. Pigs are butchered with the same utensils used for butchering sheep and cattle… Of course they are washed between uses, but according to Jewish law a separate instrument and utensil had to be used for each animal.
We make all kinds of stews and gravy, ignoring the Jewish laws about cooking. The one that comes to mind immediately is that regarding cooking the kid in the mother’s milk. A BIG no-no. But we do it all the time. Ever eaten beef stroganoff? Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. Exo. 34:26 Or poured gravy all over your ham and potatoes? Or over your steak and mashed potatoes?
We get dressed in the morning and in winter especially might wear linen or cotton pants or skirt, a silk blouse and a wool sweater over top. We have sweaters and shirts that are 50% wool and 50% something else. And NONE of our clothes have fringes on all four sides. That was not acceptable by Jewish law. 11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. Deut 22:11-12
I could go on… There are multitudes of Old Testament Laws that no one follows today. And yet, the JW choose this one about the Sabbath to emphasize and require that their followers adhere to. Why is it so absolutely necessary that ONE be followed and all the rest ignored? If we would ask I feel fairly sure that they would respond that Jesus fulfilled them. And that is true; but Jesus didn’t say, “I’m fulfilling all the Law except this one about the Sabbath.” He said he had come to fulfill the Law. Period. Paul taught that the Old Law was done away with in Christ. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:18-19 Of course, I guess they would reject the words of Paul, since they don’t line up with the JW teaching on the Sabbath.
However my guide through all this is that I am a follower of Jesus. It is my goal to do everything according the pattern set forth by Him. We find many placed in the record of His life where he disregarded the Sabbath and in a couple places actually countered it. Matthew 12:1; Luke 6:1-11; Luke 13; John 5:15-17; John 9:14. We do find places where he went into the temple on the Sabbath, but his purpose was to teach. ( Luke 13:10) He offered no sacrifices
Later on we find that the early church didn’t observe any day particularly but And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
It is evident that they were not adhering to the old Sabbath law. (In fact they were probably not able to worship too easily in the temple because they were Christians and the Jews controlled the temple.)
We find at least one account where the early Christians actually had worship service on the First Day of the Week. And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20:6-7 Paul held church on Monday.
Finally, Vicky asked if Law and teaching pertained just to the Jews? A resounding YES! In fact Peter and Paul discussed this very thing when the Jewish Christians were trying to force the Gentile believers to be circumcised. The apostle Peter and the others sent word saying: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. ( Acts 15:28) They said that the LAW didn’t apply to the Gentile believers.
And even the Jews were not so subject to the Law since the disciple taught repeatedly that if they were striving to be justified by the Law the Salvation was worthless. 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16
So let's look at the end of the confusion:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28 How much more clear does it get than this?
Binding the members of God's body to observe the Sabbath on Saturday IS a deed of the Law, isn't it?
Instead we see these churches laying heavy burdens on their people that are not necessary.
Rejoice my friends! We are not bound by these old laws! We have freedom in Christ! We have direct access to the throne of grace and we bypass priests and all the rigamarole of the old temple and even that of modern churches who proscribe days and candles and worship. We are fully saved by the grace of Christ! Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God Rom 5:1-2
Amen and Amen!
Let me clarify what I said about the "Mosaic Law." The way I said it might make some believe that it is ONLY the Ten Commandments. Acutally, It was/is all the laws (beginning with the Ten Commandments) that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. It includes many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament (in Judaism these books are called the Torah)
That does away with Donna's thought that the preacher would say about the killing of sheep and goats: well that isn't in the Ten commandments. the Jews view ALL of the Torah as being required by God. HOWEVER that was the way given by GOD for men to have their sins forgiven.
Again, we cannot pick and choose what we are going to require and what we are not.
Thanks for clarifying that Vondi. A friend of mine refuses to eat pork because it is forbidden. I told him that pertained to the Jews in the Old Testament and in fact the Bible states this:
Leviticus chapter 11 lists the dietary restrictions God gave to the nation of Israel. The dietary laws included prohibitions against eating pork, shrimp, shellfish and many types of seafood, most insects, scavenger birds, and various other animals. The dietary rules were never intended to apply to anyone other than the Israelites. The purpose of the food laws was to make the Israelites distinct from all other nations. After this purpose had ended, Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19). God gave the apostle Peter a vision in which He declared that formerly unclean animals could be eaten: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” (Acts 10:15). When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:15). This includes the laws regarding clean and unclean foods.
Romans 14:1-23 teaches us that not everyone is mature enough in the faith to accept the fact that all foods are clean. As a result, if we are with someone who would be offended by our eating “unclean” food, we should give up our right to do so as to not offend the other person. We have the right to eat whatever we want, but we do not have the right to offend other people, even if they are wrong. For the Christian in this age, though, we have freedom to eat whatever we wish as long as it does not cause someone else to stumble in his/her faith.
In the New Covenant of grace, the Bible is far more concerned with how much we eat than what we eat. Physical appetites are an analogy of our ability to control ourselves. If we are unable to control our eating habits, we are probably also unable to control other habits such as those of the mind (lust, covetousness, unrighteous hatred/anger) and unable to keep our mouths from gossip or strife. We are not to let our appetites control us; rather, we are to control them (Deuteronomy 21:20; Proverbs 23:2; 2 Peter 1:5-7; 2 Timothy 3:1-9; 2 Corinthians 10:5).
As I posted, there were laws for the Jews in the Old Testament concerning what they could and could not eat. However the food laws were abolished after God's purpose of making Israel distinct. This is what the New Testament says (as posted in my previous post):
The dietary rules were never intended to apply to anyone other than the Israelites. The purpose of the food laws was to make the Israelites distinct from all other nations. After this purpose had ended, Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19). God gave the apostle Peter a vision in which He declared that formerly unclean animals could be eaten: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” (Acts 10:15). When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:15). This includes the laws regarding clean and unclean foods.
Thank you everyone, I think I can say that I understand all this law verses faith stuff. I feel better now.
I'm going to close this thread. I think we have already discussed that JESUS fulfilled the Law of the OT. We are no longer under the Law but under grace. The OT Laws were designed to point men to their need for a Savior.
When Jesus came he WAS that savior. He IS our rest.
We worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. He dwells within us and we commune with him every day.
Although we gather together for fellowship with one another, it is not necessary to gather to worship God. He is within us.
We don't need to come to have a priest minister the things of God to us. Jesus is our high priest. His Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.
Paul spoke to the Galatians of his concern for those who were trying to be Christians and yet hold themselves and others to the OT laws saying But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
I believe that is about as clear as it can be made. If anyone has been deceived by this discussion, I'm sorry. Don't become entangled again in the yokes of bondage.
I forgot the scriptural reference I just used Galatians 4:9-11