Trayvon Martin is Dead Because He Was Born Black in America – Period By Eric Wattree
This post was modified from its original form on 13 Jul, 12:38
This trial is American on trial over how tolerant we are of black youth.
Zimmerman got on Hannity show and said "it was the will of God" to justify his actions.
The 10 Commandments say Thou Shall not Kill.
Zimmerman is a very problematic person as he lied about the $250,000 in paypal acct.
He gave several versions of the encounter and fatal shooting of Trayvon.
He is also a busy body who made nearly 70 calls to the police about goings on within that gated community.
He should have stayed in car when police dispatcher ordered him to stay put in car and not follow. He should have identified himself as a neighborhood watch dog to Trayvon.
He was single minded in his thinking of who are suspicious in that neighborhood.
He is also overly diligent which is a dangerous trait in anyone.
I am fortunate enough to have every shade from almost albino white to almost total black in my family,so I grew to know that there are truly good and truly evil in every shade.I am not a religious person,but I do believe that Almighty created and loves them all,and when I hear the Bible being a basis of racism,I quote what it says about"WHosoever will come unto me,I will in no wise cast out",and "Every tongue,every tribe,every race shall be around the throne of Almighty".In my family,with its diversity,it is good to say to the children when they ask about so many skin colors if they want a box of crayons woth all one color.....gets the point across.
I do not understand why skin color is such a big deal anyway,it is what is in the mind and the heart that matter.I also do not know how they can possibly let zimmerman go,because the fact still remains that if he had remained in his cr,this confrontation never would have happened to begin with.....
Zimmerman is acquitted.
Peter Schiff brought up excellent points though.
More points that weren't admissable in the court:
Martin's cell phone was filled with pics of him holding a gun and fighting.
He was thrown out of school for fighting.
Him and his friends attacked a bus driver out of no provocation.
He's been caught in the past with tools used to break into houses.
It doesn't matter what skin color you are, but if one has a history of violence, well that's just not good.
Whatever Travon's past is,whatever his character flaws are,the fact still remains that the confrontation never would have happened if zimmerman had remained in his car and not persued him,as he was told to do by the dispatcher.No matter what faults Travon had,you can not get around that.If someone were following me,and obviously persuing me,I would certainly defend myself.If the situatuion had been reversed,Travon would have been in jail the same night that it happened,there would not have to be a public outcry in order to even get the case looked at.I do not condone violence and rioting in most cases,but you know what?When that is the only way to obtain justice,you do what you have to do.Zimmerman had better watch his back.
Regardless of Trayvon's past or Zimmerman's past, I feel that the bottom line was that the end result was indeed based on self-defense.
At what point when your head is being bashed into concrete (yes, concrete is a weapon here), is your fear going to kick in and you will go for your gun?
With that being said, yes, it is tragic when a young person loses their life, and I do feel for his mother and family!
Perhaps he should have gotten some degree of manslaughter. I had to look up the definitions.
"It is a general rule that a defendant who acts in Self-Defense may only use force that is reasonably calculated to prevent harm to himself or herself. If the person honestly, but unreasonably, believes Deadly Force is necessary and, therefore, causes another's death, some courts will consider the crime voluntary manslaughter. Similarly when a defendant acts under an honest but unreasonable belief that he or she has a right to kill another to prevent a felony, some courts will find the person guilty of voluntary manslaughter. Although it is generally considered a crime to kill another in order to save oneself, the justification of coercion or necessity may, likewise, reduce murder to manslaughter in some jurisdictions."
THE BOTTOM LINE IS,THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED FOR SELF DEFENSE IF THIS RACIST P.O.S. HAD STAYED THE F**K IN HIS CAR,LIKE HE WAS TOLD TO DO.I CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT HE GOT AWAY WITH THIS !YEAH,HE WOULD MAKE A GREAT COP-A BUNCH OF RACIST MOTHER F***ERS.IF THAT CRACKER WERE FOLLOWING ME,I WOULD BEAT HIS HEAD IN TO PROTECT MYSELF TOO,WHO HERE WAS ACTING IN SELF DEFENSE?YOU GO TO THE STORE TO BUY A BAG OF SKITTLES,AND YOU END UP BEING PROFILED AND FOLLOWED!W.T.F?!?!?!?!?! WHEN THEY CHOSE AN ALL WHITE JURY,YOU KNEW THAT THIS TRIAL WAS FIXED.ZIMMERMAN STARTED THE WHOLE THING,BY PERSUING HIM WHEN HE WAS TOLD NOT TO.NO NEED TO DEFEND HIM SELF IF HE HAD LISTENED.YOU START SOME THING WITH ANOTHER PERSON,THEN CRY SELF DEFENSE WHEN THEY DEFEND THEM SELVES.SO,WHAT ARE YOU,REBECCA???WHITE,MIDDLE CLASS?EVER HAD SOME ONE FOLLOW AND HARRASS YOU FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN YOUR SKIN COLOR.I HAVE,IT IS SOME SCARY SH*T,BUT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE,THEN SHUT YOUR F***ING MOUTH!
I do not believe George Zimmerman every intentionally goes out each day or night with the intent to kill a minority or anyone else for that matter.
It was a nightmare about to happen and fate brought these 2 together. I still contend and always will that GZ would never have gotten out of his car that night; I believe he displays characterizations of hyper vigilance which is a trait which can get you into trouble.
He is a busy body and he needs counseling more than ever right now. Hyper vigilance will get anyone into deep water.
Trayvon Martin is a dead teenager and why malign him with vicious statements. He is a kid from a broken home, he is black from Miami and he smoked pot and like any other kid goes on cell phone and computers.
The verdict was based on STAND YOUR GROUND and the jurists made the right decision as it was a FL Stand your ground case. There were physical altercations between the two and GZ believed he was fighting for his life. I know he is the adult following the kid and he has the gun but Trayvon is not here to provide a contrary story. He claimed Martin got the better of him and I would not find that hard to believe!
I find your attitude and vitriol directed toward me quite scary.
I have been followed by a gang of mixed race kids when I lived in Jersey City. But, that's another story.
I realized this is a highly charged emotional issue.
But, it's a divide and conquer story that never should have been nationalized.
"In the 513 days between Trayvon dying, and today’s verdict, 11,106 African Americans have been murdered by other African-Americans." -Sharon Liberty
That' not news is it?
Or all the brown kids in the middle east?
I think that law Stand your ground sucks big time and that was the thing that got GZ off!
It is a very slippery slope when you put in these stupid laws and thank GOD very few states have this in effect.
We have only one version and that eye witness who was considered a viable source who said GZ was on the bottom and Trayvon was on top being the aggressor.
Zimmerman will have to meet his maker and GOD knows best. He broke the Ten Commandments - Thou shall not Kill.
He has to live with that the rest of his life and he has BAD KARMA now.
I would never want blood on my hands and that is all I am going to say!
Send a Green Star to holly masih
This wasn't a stand your ground case. It was a self defense case.
Rebecca,I do agree with Holly and Justice,there would have been no confrontation,no need for mr zimmerman to defend himself if he did obey the 911 people and not follow mr. martin.It became necassary for him to do so only after he diobeyed and followed him regardless of what he was told.Justice asked a legitamite question:Have you ever been followed,harrased,any of that for your skin color?I have,both in the states,as well as in Jamaica,and I was tormented,harrased,and sexually assulted.It is not an uncommon thing if you are black,but it is extremely scary,and,yes,when you keep seeing it happen and not one thing is done about it,can you blame people of color for becoming angry?While I do not condone violence,I can understand why people who feel that they have no other way to get justice to resort to it.I do not hate whites,I have white blood in me.I have seen a white relative get a drug charge and go to rehab.I have seen a black relative do the same charge and go to prison.I have seen it many times.Why do the prisons have so many blacks as opposed to whites?I have given you the 2 main reasons.
Having got that out,Justice,you need to chill.Talking to her like that will only validate her ignorance and racism,it will not get your point across at all.You say it your self,she has no first hand knowledge.She does not understand.Speaking to her in anger will not make her understand,either.
The verdict was based on Stand Your Ground!
When I was a young woman of 20 y.o., two white men followed me in downtown Boston, Kenmore Square to be exact. It was late, after midnite. I was walking home alone as I was angry over a boyfriend.
One got out of the car and chased me, I ran as fast as the wind. A black man who drove a taxi cab grabbed me and told me get in as he saw the whole thing. He saved my life; he drove me home to my mother and she was forever greatful and was I to this hero.
I learned a valuable lesson all around.
There are evil people and skin color has nothing to do with it.
My family members who are black as there is interracial marriage in my family are the kindest and most honest of the bunch. They are also the most intelligent.
That is my personal story!
Again, hyper-vigilance is a bad trait; people who are hyper vigilant always get in trouble as it is not normal! I am a psych nurse and pychiatrists won't even talk with a patient who is high hyper vigilant mode as they do not process information at all!.
Kaya, "Talking to her like that will only validate her ignorance and racism,"
I disagree it's a race issue.
I am far from racist.
How dare anybody judge me without knowing me?
Reverse that foolish law: stand your ground, I am hearing it all over MSNBC and HLN news now.
Remember, Casey Anthony got off in FL as well, I could make some comments but I will refrain.
George Zimmerman is a problematic person, again, I never believed he was the type with murder or killing on his mind though.
He created a horrible incident when he got out of that car and followed Trayvon. Did he racially profile Trayvon, yes, he did.
Read that article from the very conservative site VETERANS TODAY.
Thank you ,Shelah.
Rebecca,I understand your point,it was a self defense case.But the self defense still would not have been necassary if mr zimmerman had done what he was told.Can you see that here?
Rebecca: why bring up Trayvon's history which was written by a hater and that is quite obvious.
There are many right wing crazy wing nut who are haters on the internet and this is what you put out:
Zimmerman is acquitted.
Peter Schiff brought up excellent points though.
More points that weren't admissable in the court:
Martin's cell phone was filled with pics of him holding a gun and fighting.
He was thrown out of school for fighting.
Him and his friends attacked a bus driver out of no provocation.
He's been caught in the past with tools used to break into houses.
It doesn't matter what skin color you are, but if one has a history of violence, well that's just not good.
I don't read this crap, I don't watch this shyte and I know that it is vicious maligning of a dead kid!
....not judging you,Rebecca,just seeing the typical response.....
....and yes,it is a race thing.If mr.martin had been the watch man,and zimmerman was the one shot,do you think mr. martin would not have been in jail that same night?Would there have had to be a public out cry just to get the case looked at?
....speculation,we will never know.This debate could go on indefinitely.
I realize this is a highly charged issue with many different points of view. Just wish to emphasize to please refrain from name calling. The Cafe has been really good about refraining from that since Christian was booted. I'd like to keep it that way.
I'd like to think people from different backgrounds can learn from each other
As a woman, I would not shoot to kill, you shoot in the chest, abdomen or head you are seriously going to kill someone.
You can cut them off at the knees. If you want to carry a gun and a concealed one at that; know how to use it wisely.
Police Officers who shoot to kill are always brought up on review always!
Private citizens should not be in the same league as trained police!
Again, HYPER VIGILANCE look it up, it is not normal and personally I don't want someone like that out patroling with a gun!
Thanks David: but I think the conservative site VETERAN's Today made valid points and that is why I posted that article yesterday.
this is the def. of hyper vigilance:
Definition: Hypervigilance is one of the hyperarousal symptoms of PTSD and refers to the experience of being constantly tense and "on guard." A person experiencing this symptom of PTSD will be motivated to maintain an increased awareness of their surrounding environment, sometimes even frequently scanning the environment to identify potential sources of threat. Hypervigilance is also often accompanied by changes in behavior, such as always choosing to sit in a far corner of a room so as to have awareness of all exits. At extreme levels, hypervigilance may appear similar to paranoia.
I am sorry,David,you are right.Shelah,I agree with you,too,and Rebecca,I am sorry if I have offended you.No need to fight each other,this is a time to come together and try to find a solution,right?
Shelah,what you have described is me.......
There may be reasons for it,but there are no excuses for it-not for Zimmerman,and not for me.
Rebecca,I am sorry.I will try to under stand where you are coming from.Can you do the same for me?
I have endured what Kaya described several times.Again,not an excuse to speak as I have.I am sorry.......
Definitely did not use wisdom here....
In truth Justice, we are all a little hyper vigilante. it is when you take it to a whole different level that it causes problems. We should be aware of our surroundings and the people behind or beside us always. I live in the city and that is how I live daily.
Believe me, GZ life will not be peachy!
My cousin killed someone who was trying to rob him and hurt him and he was charged with manslaughter. He got off. However, yrs later he was murdered on his doorstep and many believe it to be the brother but it could not be proven. It was an unsolved murder.
Karma is a bitch.
This post was modified from its original form on 14 Jul, 9:49
Good and bad karma,you reap what you sow,what goes around comes around.......
Just about every belief system agrees that you get what you give.
I would never kill any one for it,but my words are a weapon that need to be controlled as well.
....I am hurt inside that I have the capacity to say such hurtful things....
Evil intentions live in all colors of people, just like good intentions do (and we know what the road to hell is paved with lol) have been followed and scared by hispanics simply because I'm white. I have been followed by white guys and terrified simply because I am a woman. And if caught up with and acosted I would fight like my life depended on it. Plain and simple.
Rebecca, I am sorry you have been treated with such disrespect. Hopefully we won't see any more of it.
TELL ME what you think,as well as the song that I posted earlier entitled"One Day".
the words are touching, my sound won't work on computer and can anyone help me.
I did go to control panel.
Maybe I am not doing it right, this has been going on for a couple of days now.
I seriously doubt a society could become anymore mentally dysfunctional then our society has become and issues like this fully display that fact! I live in a segregated neighborhood and the bottom line is human beings are still human being no matter what their skin color is. In my mind our only differences is some of us were put into female bodies and some in male bodies. Those behaviors differences are it regardless of our skin colors.
Also experiences we go through also add to our mind's programming. With an issue like this I grew up never knowing in any way that we were any different from one another other then gender. When I was in the Navy I had a black friend who felt like a gift leaving me feeling like I was black then white. But then fast forward where people come from different backgrounds and all the prejudices set in. I asked a black guy in the neighborhood about the prejudices he faces and he tells me about trouble he goes through with the Mexicans. I talk with Mexicans and they tell me the trouble they have with the whites. Yet I'm white and can't remember all the times I have that thrown at me about being prejudice when I take a stand. One black guy is going to get a pice and blow me away. Both the blacks and Mexicans tell me that they think I just don't like their music when I tell them to turn it down. Just who in the hell is really prejudice anyways?
I've been assaulted twice taking a stand for what I think would make the neighborhood a better place to live instead living in fear doing nothing. The first was by a fifteen year old and I discovered I could do absolutely nothing about this as more effort is put into covering up incompetence then ever will being becoming competent. When a fifteen year old has more rights then I do as a retired male in our society, that's dysfunctional without any sign of ever being functional. In the case being discussed I see the neighborhood had problems like I've faced everyday of my life. When I grew up it was my parents who were held responsible for my behavior but now days there is no sign of that. Most children don't have parents and are lucky to have even one parent who knows how to raise the children they bring irresponsibly into this world and that know no race difference.
After my first being assaulted I fought like hell to get this into the courts and found that to be hopeless. I mean we take people and send them to school and put them into positions where they make decisions about life without ever experiencing life and that is sick. The county attorney tells me after my numerous attempts to get my side into this issue that they just put the kid who assaulted me on probation for damaging property and they felt that was punishment enough. So for me living in a neighborhood and standing up to make it a better neighborhood I know for sure which side of the issue I'm on in this issue.
It's not about race in any way. In my life my mind goes back to our basic behavioral differences where it's either controlling and manipulating or earning trust and respect.
The last time I was assaulted was by a Mexican guy who looked like he didn't have anymore room for tattoos on his body. I have my own form of insanity that loses it when I get into these conflicts as I just don't care what the hell happens cause I'm pissed. So the guy let's me know he just got out of prison four months before this to which I asked what he was using for brains assaulting me and being on probation. Then when I filed a police report on this the cop tells me they didn't want to see me getting hurt. I landed on my elbow which was bleeding so I held that up and said, "If this guy just got out of prison four months ago and he's this way now what good could you possibly do to preventing me from getting hurt? No thank you. I'm better off getting hurt." My point is that society isn't functioning in a constructive way but for damn sure has a destructive way going for it. Protesting this or race, pissing and moaning about everybody and everything isn't cutting it! That's destroying us and ought to be thought about. Emerson wrote, "Things won't go unmanaged for long time," and our country has gone unmanaged for to long of a time now. If we don't own up to managing it our selves in a responsible and accountable way we'll lose it and have it managed for us. What happened in this trial is the way our country operates and if people don't like it change that but don't cry like babies needing a diaper change about it.
This post was modified from its original form on 14 Jul, 10:51
Good to see you posting again Ken and you always give a good thought for people from your own life experiences, thank you.
I read the link that David put up and it is quite interesting. I hope Americans are not that easily manipulated and fall into that trap.
I think people are smarter than the media believes them to be easily molded and they are not.
I did feel a lil tension today; but minor and people will learn from this tragedy.
What I don't want to see is people bashing a dead kid and citing his past.
GZ was not pristine in his life either.
If that is all some can do, then GOD help them because they are sad, pathetic souls who probably don't like themselves much either.
I also want to add that both my article and David's link are provocative.
I was surprised to read that in Veterans Today but they are all vets writing there and that was one man speaking his mind.
It is a free country still and freedom of speech is cherished, just think of China and other totaltarian socieities where everything is monitored.
Oh yep, the NSA is data mining but putting it all together is another thing as they could not even get the Boston Bombers without public assistance.
I completely agree with that Natural News article.
They are trying to divide us.
I believe in agreeing to disagree. I believe in being civil.
Shelah said, "What I don't want to see is people bashing a dead kid and citing his past.
GZ was not pristine in his life either.
If that is all some can do, then GOD help them because they are sad, pathetic souls who probably don't like themselves much either."
Really, Shelah? You just had to go there. So, thereby you are calling me a sad, pathetic soul, who doesn't like themselves much? HELLO, Shelah. This is Rebecca F! Remember me?? I've been here since 2008. You should know better.
One of the reasons I had left Care2 for a number of months was to get away from the vitriol.
Justice and Kaya- I hope we don't let this get us off on a bad footing.
Katii- thank you for your kind words! And, thanks, David for reminding us that we can all learn from one another!
Wake up to reality Shelah! Every part of our lives is monitored and I do mean every part of our lives. I already brought up about I feel that the only thing different about us is our genders and in my life those genders each have a God given behavior which are meant to compliment one another. I know of the females in my life were all controlling and manipulating which is not in any way a problem. Males enabling themselves to be controlled and manipulated is the problem though because instead of the male giving strength he offers weakness in relating to others. It takes the earning of trust and respect for one to give up controlling and manipulating so they can feel secure in relating in relationships. That's where it takes a women to make a man comes into play in my life. In marriage I enabled myself to be controlled and manipulated but then when one of our daughters became suicidal I intentionally put all my efforts into earning her trust and respect so she could feel secure with me in sharing our lives together. That was my responsibility which I was accountable for.
So take this into the rest of our lives and watch for controlling and manipulating behaviors to understand what's going on. If those behaviors are boughten into then they are enabled just like any dysfunctional behavior is enabled by others. It takes earning of trust and respect for people to feel secure in their lives and keeping people divided in a way to control and manipulate them.
I read some of the article but my own life has been blessed with so many that are outcasts of society. At the first of the year I got news that a good friend of mine got his home invaded and possessions taken away. I suspected he was a dealer but didn't want to know. The guy had a heart of gold but I'm sure the public would see him as evil.
At one time I did custom painting and did a lot of bike work. Before I even knew what happened I was doing work for the 'Outlaws, and finding them more trustworthy then the goodie-good type of people. A news article told how one of them died of a heart attack. I was doing some tanks for the brother-in-law and the first words out of his mouth about the heart attack were BS. I seen the body and he was beaten with night sticks. But these guys were 'Outlaws' so they didn't stand chance doing anything about it. I remember wearing the 'T' shirt with a pig on it holding a big night stick and the words. "Warning this could be bad for your health!"
None of what's going on is new and until individual minds wake up to fact that anything that divides us it destroying us we just keep on enabling ourselves to be controlled and manipulated.
I don't think I would have wanted my life any different then it's been. It's all what society might brand as scum of the earth that have been part of my life I appreciate the most and probably given me my strength. Even with my skills I worked for some important well to-do people but it's those who were on the bottom I liked the most. I could feel united with them, not divided. Remember the words "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Maybe those I liked best in my life had nothing left to lose and it's that freedom I really liked best!
Rebecca Pls. do not take that personally, I was on the fox news site and people over there are salivating about Zimmerman doing justice to the world as Trayvon Martin was a derelict, thug, drug user, burglar and every other name you can call him. They are so focused on the dead kid.
I just had enough and I don't think you are a pathetic soul, I posted that over there and just copied it here because I don't bash the dead.
Zimmerman is a problematic person himself; however, I still never thought he had murder in his mind. He is a busybody, hyper-vigilant and he should have stayed in his car.
If a cop shoots to kill he is brought up on serious internal investigations and does psych eval. and police are professionals. Zimmerman is a wannabe cop who failed getting the job not because of his credit but the psych eval which came out early on after the tragic event.
We all need to calm down and I stopped posting over on Fox GretaWire as it was plain hatred from some who want to defame a dead teenager.
Not all, but there are always some people filled with hate.
This is not meant for you.
I do respect your opinion and we all should be open to agree and disagree.
This is a no win situation as far as I am concerned as GZ always will have blood on his hands and he has to live with it. On Hannity, he claimed it was "God's will" that trayvon die.
I don't like that talk at all. It is God's Commandment not to kill also.
I do believe you reap what you sow. Time will tell as it always does in the end.
Do not take that statement personal as I had just about blew my cool with the Trayvon bashing.
Have a good evening and next time, I will word myself more carefully. I am sorry you took it that way. I can see how you did and I extend my apology. I don't want to be rude here, I have had it being like that as it gets you no where fast.
THIS IS WHAT IRKED ME TODAY, I will not print this link out as it demeans a dead kid, Trayvon Martin, let him R.I.P.
This post was modified from its original form on 14 Jul, 19:04
....again,I am sorry.
"Until the philosophy which hold one race superiour and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned,every where is war.And until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes,this a war."
-The emorer Haile Sallasie,king of Ethiopia,sung by the Hon.Robert Nesta Marley,R.I.P.-
It is ok,Rebecca,like Justice say it is difficult when we do not know where each other comes from.Can not get angry because a person does not under stand,unless they are unwilling to learn.I am not.It is ok.
So I brought up about how a 'Outlaw' biker was killed with night sticks and the cops released that he died of a heart attack. If anybody remembers Rodney King was beat with night sticks by the cops to and there were riots that followed that. Of course in my own mind the 'Outlaw' biker was white and there was nothing that could be done about that beating. As a matter of fact those who did try to do anything about it got harassed by the police and there was nothing they could do about it. Maybe some might ask if this has any relevance to what this subject is all about. I'm white and go through what young people like Trayvon Martin put us through in our neighborhoods just like Zimmerman did. I seen the image that the 'Outlaw' biker has in the public's eyes as comparable to the image Trayvon Martin has in my eyes with his hooded sweat shirt. The Image is exactly the same for me. They wear the hooded sweat shirts to make it harder for people to get decent picture of them which could be used to hold them accountable for their wrong doings. One type of person injects just as much fear as the other to many. Yet we constantly elect people to represent us in our country that use drones to kill people in other countries and all they have to say is they were the bad guys we killed. I don't care if people use race or whatever lame brained excuse they want to, it all boils down to the fact we do not reason decently enough to solve our own problems in our country and we're destroying ourselves with this behavior.
I can not express enough what I go through because I am white in this country. We had a politician in our state that once brought up that he wondered if when whites become the minority there'll be a holiday for the whites in our country. I don't care what anybody wants to think of my race because if it's not that they find wrong about me it'll be something else like being in the wrong political party, or something I said. If I stand up to people for what I believe to be right we're a society that buys into what's wrong with everybody and everything.
I know when my daughter killed herself and I heard her mother cry I had to own up to my own mistakes causing this which with stuff like this I honestly believe our whole society is going to have to do the same thing owning up to our own mistakes for how we handle each of our own individual roles in our society. The people that will get hit the hardest by this are the parents of the young man killed because right now it's like they're looking for sympathy under the diguise of justice. When they least expect it their minds will go to what they did wrong in the responsibility they had in raising him that might have prevented this whole thing from happening in the first place.
This post was modified from its original form on 15 Jul, 10:39
Ken.you have made some very valid points here.One thing I would like to point out,there are times when our children do not grow up the way that we raise them.I do not know any thing about Trayvons up bringing,he may have been as he was as a result of his up bringing,or in spite of,we do not know.
Personally.I have seen children raised in good homes became bad.Me,personally,my mother tried to kill me 4 times,both my parents beat me , my dad reject me because I have green eyes and light skin,my mom reject me because of my knappy hair,and my "%#&!*%" facial features....
I do not bring up this to evoke sympathy,I do not need it.I say it to pint out that despite that,I grew up to be-not perfect-but good.
There are many factors to consider.As I state before,you give valid pints for me to think about.The bottom line,we all have responsibility for our behaviour.I love all races,and we can choose to strive our hardest for peace,though it is true many fight against it.Stick with people who feel that way as well.I extend my love to all here.
Rebecca and Katii it is so good to see you both
To you other ladies, nice to meet you.
This is going to be a rough road for a while with this issue. I just hope that cooler minds, more reasonable minds run the show. We don't need this division.
I think Zimmermann should have received at least manslaughter. Although I am completely unfamiliar with Florida laws and sentencing. He put himself in this position and while I am not prepared to say he had no right to defend himself. He killed someone.
I think this was a situation where Zimmermann was a wannabe law enforcer. I don't think he set out that day to kill anyone. However, his actions did place him in that position. He bears responsibility for those actions.
I think the prosecution did not fulfill their obligations to get a guilty verdict on this. I also think this whole situation was handled badly and no true justice would come from it. It became a big show. A political issue.
I agree with Rebecca that this is a great dividing issue. Our politicians love when this type of thing happens. They can feed their bases. Hate just grows and festers.
Race is made an issue by weak minded people. I could care less what anybody's skin color is but it's their behaviors that concern me the most. For me the basic reality is life is all about relating in relationships. As I brought up I had to learn the hard way that it takes earning each other's trust and respect to feel secure in relating in relationships of all types.
In my own life I grew up with a mother and a father plus one sister who I thought God put me on this earth to kill and put her out of her misery. That might sound harsh but like my mother she made it a point to let the world what wrong with me and everybody else and everything in the world. So that's the initial programing in that's fed to my mind that I operated on. Then as my skills grew my initial behavior didn't cut it anymore as I used to have a guy who was a CEO of a company who would visit every Saturday morning. He was a problem solver which is very different from a problem seller that my mind got programmed with. But that's what makes a leader different also which I believe is a father's role in life.
With the bikers I had my own fears when first getting involved with them. They were the real thing and most my clients were total opposites. Yet there was something like a code amongst them that I became deeply impressed with. The young bikers were the bad actors trying to prove themselves and the older bikers would let stuff go for so long when they'd step in with something done saying to the young biker, "Make it right." I know I was under police surveillance because of my association with them yet I was like a liaison when the police or somebody would come to me with problems they had with bikers. That "Make it Right" thing is something that parents and elders in our country ought to be doing because our system sure the hell isn't working the way we're going right now.
The last woman I was involved with had a mother who was Apache. She grew up with parents who were alcoholics and got to watch her father beat her mother so bad that she might not see her for a couple weeks while she recovered in the hospital. In the small mining town when she went to school she didn't have any problems till the Mexican girls discovered she was Apache and then they gave her a douse of pure hell. So that's a race issue that isn't considered as I had went to the reservation with her many times to discover people I never even considered went through their own racial issue hells.
We're human beings and it's how we use our own individual minds that makes issues. For me even if Trayvon Martin's skin color was sky blue pink leaving his behavior go unchecked was seriously doing him wrong because that was enabling a behavior that harmed society instead of helping this young man become a member of society. The protesters about all this could be beneficial in a manner that if they are stopped by our government the people in our country could make a case about how our government supports those protesters in other countries with over throwing their governments so how come they don't support protesters here. All I'm sharing here is just like a young man's behavior was never disciplined, our own government's behavior was also never disciplined and there's a lot of opportunities to do so in life if people really wanted to "Make it Right."
....Though you bring up some very valid points,Ken,and I can be swayed by reason,I doubt if you would say that race is an issue for weak minded people when you see your family members killed in front of you,because of your race,and then have the group of them turn to you and your sibling and take turns raping you.Experience that,while all the while hearing the racial things sayed to you,then tell me the same thing.I do not hate white people,I have family with white blood in them,but race is a very real issue,not becase it should be,but because some people make it so.Perhaps they are the weak minded people whom you speak of?I mean no disrespect to you,and this is not some thing that I even feel comfortable to share,but I do so to show you a point.
Great link, Rebecca! I have been holding my tongue on this case ... mainly because I have only known what the right and left media has pumped into our brains, and so, for me, I had no "real" facts that I could form an intelligent opinion with. The link Rebecca shared puts out a LOT of FACTS that many probably never heard. I did get pretty sick of hearing Martin referred to as a young "child" since he was absolutely not a "young child" ... he was a young man and he had, in the past, acted like a pretty tough young man ... not an innocent child as the one side of this horrible story wanted so many to believe. Do I think he "deserved to die"? NO. But I believe that he does hold some responsibility for his death. And that is my opinion based on the facts I have gathered.
I only bring any of this up because, 1) I wish everyone would go to the link that Rebecca provided, 2) because I just wanted to say that the reasons for this young man's death are many, but first and foremost are gun laws in the State of Florida, and this country for that matter, which allow for someone who is on Adderall and Tamazepam to carry a gun, and 3) that this wasn't as much about race as it was about appearance. I saw the surveillance video from 7/11. Martin had his pants hanging off his butt, hoodie hood well over his head, nearly covering his face while inside the store (that in itself can be viewed as "suspicious" and shows that the "it was raining" theory for the hood use was not relevant). Was Martin to blame for his own death? Partially, yes. My parents (I am old) used to warn me about a thing called "guilt by association" ... they also told me that if I was going to get in on a fight, I had better be prepared for what might come at me, and they told me that who I hung around with and how I dressed said a lot about who I was. They told me that I had to be responsible for what happened to me and if I always blamed others for what I got myself into, would not allow for anything to ever change or get better. And that is exactly what the media does not want. They don't want things to get better in this country. They want this discord in this country to continue because if it didn't, and we all got together and realized what was being done to all of us, collectively, there would be some real problems for the "higher ups" in this country. The "race card" was perpetuated from the get go and that in itself should have been a warning for people who wanted truth. And for our President to weigh in on this case by saying that if he had a son, he might have looked like Trayvon, was out of line. He had no right to do that. Whether or not Trayvon had the same color of skin as our President should have had NO bearing on this case. Our own President played the race card. Which told me a LOT about him. And I voted for him. I am a person who listens for truth before forming an opinion, which is what I would hope most sane people would want to do. But the people of this country were baited ... and most took that bait hook, line, and sinker. They were baited by the owners of the media, who want to keep this country at odds with each other. Who want to distract the people of this country as to what is really being done to their country. And this is pretty much ALL mainstream media. And, if there wasn't some big drama going on no one would ever watch the news!!
The thing is, shootings happen in this country all the time. One guy shoots another ... but they aren't publicized like this at all. Why this time? Because it was a white guy (actually Hispanic, but they wanted to make sure we all knew he had some White in there) that shot a black guy? And so if you think that the "white" guy just may have been scared to death and was really defending himself, you must be a racist? And that will put a whole bunch of whites against whites now, won't it? Don't you think that is exactly what they want? And of course, the liberals all had Zimmerman guilty right off the bat because he wasn't black, and the right wing had Zimmerman not guilty because Martin was black . What happened to innocent until proven guilty? This is drama. And drama is a distraction. It is very sad that a 17 year old young man will not be able to reach the potential that he had. It is very sad that parents lost their child. But the jury did their job. The State did not prove that Zimmerman murdered (by legal definition) Trayvon Martin. Maybe they didn't prove it because there was no "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that that is what happened. In any case ... the only truth I know for sure is that a very unfortunate set of circumstances led up to a very horrible tragedy, and if this country would get over the need to arm every single person in this country, whether they have a responsible mentality about gun ownership or not, whether or not they are on medications that could impair their judgement, maybe these kinds of tragedies could be stopped.
I am new to this group, and I sure hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinion ... and that is all this is ... just my opinion. I believe that it is important for people to discuss opinions, based on facts, if we are to ever, as a species, going to be able to sort anything out and move forward as a species.
Race IS a factor in this country ... there is no denying that we have a long way to go ... but the race thing goes both ways. There are just as many people of color who hate people without color ... and for no other reason than the skin color. "Crackers"? Really? We have to get over this. But this kind of case, played out in the media the way it was, will never help us to achieve that. It will only continue to keep the division strong.
Well said, Deb.
I don't think anyone here would ever say that racism does not exist.
I just disagree that Zimmerman is racist.
The jury though, who knows?
And, I did state earlier that he probably should have gotten some form of manslaughter because he did kill Martin.
But, please read this:
Sorry about the dots, but Care2 still won't let me do space breaks.
Rebecca, if you hit Ctrl and Enter at the same time, a break should come
Deb, I have to say I agree in great part with what you said above.
The Cracker comment kind of got me too. Especially directed in a post to Rebecca, someone you don't even know. I was very surprised by that and disappointed.
I am not going to get into any single experience in my life to make a point here. We all have experiences. I would never use one of those experiences as permission, or a way to justify the use of a racially derrogatory remark at any one. If I were to do that, I am part of the problem.
To feel bad about doing so is good. However, why do it at all if you truly believe people are people.
I think many things took place with this trial. I also think we all need to calm down and stop hating because of color or even experience.
I do not condone the "cracker' comment,either,it was wrong.But so is beating up the person and constantly bringing it up after they admit a wrongdoing and apologize.And then to go further by putting down the fact that she shared somthing very personal,that was mean,no matter how you look at it.Have you ever made a mistake?Would you want people to keep bringing it up?The person apologized,leave her alone.
Holly, I made two posts on this thread. Only one on the topic in which you reference above. I held back commenting when I first read it. I thought about it and now I commented on it.
To suggest that commenting about a racist statement that flew out in rage is beating her down is wrong. I wanted to be open enough to explain that it was insulting and not necessary, especially here. It's part of the problem. I don't condone anyone making racist statements in my presence. No matter who....
I was not trying to be insulting to her for sharing an experience, rather I was trying to express that we all haved lived and had experiences as well. Good, bad, whatever...
We are all just people and should remain treating each other as such.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.So extend everyone that courtesy,whether or not thy make mistakes.You would not wnat someone constantly bringing up you mistakes,would you?
Umm, Holly, I mentioned it once.
Never said I didn't make mistakes. I wish. Never said life is all cherries. Never said it was all bad. Never said anything really other than something I needed to say once.
Yeah,well maybe next time you can leave other people out of it.
Justice, we're a society that loves to hate and I spent seven years putting my all into encouraging my daughter to want to live and lost. She was bullied in school at age twelve by white girls and the more I and my wife tried to stop this the worse they got. Even attempting to call their parents only got me how terrible our daughter was. So I watched her lose her trust in other human beings and kill herself. In a way that's was more like a slow form of torture of seeing someone getting killed in front of me because people's behaviors and words kill people in front of others all the time. In our United States more effort is put into treating animals nice then they ever will each other. I mean how many people ever consider we the people in the United States elect people to represent us and they make enemies out of other countries to justify killing people in front of loved ones right in front of others without even giving stuff like that a second thought.
The only reason I can bring up points that I do is my daughter left in writing how she seen her life unfold plus I have letters from her and her mother who died of lung cancer that I've put together and wrote in my part where I fit in which has been in the works for years now. An example from this is my 'Good-bye letter' which she acknowledged that I was the only human being that kept her hanging on for years by believing in her dreams when she didn't believe in them anymore. That's all I'm doing here is attempting to change the focus from fighting nightmares to having dreams because we're a society that's killing one another in front of one another all the time right now. The reality of my own life at this time is that I can't even think of any white friends that I have at this time but to be honest about it we kid around a lot about our race differences. One Mexican guy tells me when I'm doing some tricep push-downs that I can't do that because I'm not Mexican and a Young Black man and I are always kidding around about our age difference and how fast he is with comebacks when we're kidding around. There's just nothing that divides us.
Justice, what you had to endure sounds absolutely horrific, and I am sorry you had to experience that!!!
I do feel that our past experiences can lead us to better understanding of certain situations.
However, I also feel that at times it can cloud or skew our perceptions, making it difficult to see the truth or to be impartial.
Suzanne, sometimes the hard return works, but mostly it hasn't, especially in another group I'm in.
^^^ See, it didn't work!! ugh.
I can be honest and see that,Rebecca.I think it has done that to me.It is my responsibility to fix it,no one elses.I do not blame what i went through on my actions,that was the fault of me and no one else,and I am sorry for how I spoke to you.Thank you for acnowledging and under standing.
Holly thank you for trying to defend me,but I kind of brought that on my self.I accept it,it is my fault.
Ken,I am so sorry for what happened with your daughter.I do not think I could ever endure the loss of a child.When I do my butter fly credits next time,I could do a gift in her honor?My condolances to you,I am so sorry.children and adults can be cruel.but i,we,need to remember that there are good ones too,ok.
A wonderful and positive story coming out of the Zimmerman/Martin case:
Rachel is a diamond in the rough.
I laughed at her during trial, not because of her appearance, etc. it was the way she handled Don West.
No one should make fun of her due to weight, talk, etc.
She is getting a chance, good for her. God Bless you Mr. Joyner!
Justice I brought this discussion up with the young black guy at the gym this morning and feel it might be a good idea to share with you. I directly told him about what we are discussing and asked him if he felt there was anything that's racial about us relating to one another. His answer was we're just two people having fun but he did include we come from different backgrounds. We're very open in our sharing with one another and I brought up that when I was young I used to get picked up by the cops a minimum of once a week so I was in trouble all the time. My father put me in the service when I was 17 because he knew I needed the discipline.
So then life gets fast forwarded and now I'm the adult who has to deal with those who displayed my behavior when I was young. Add to that life seems to add others who had the same background in their youth that I had. Of course we didn't understand it then, but sure do now because it's like life has a way of preparing us for whatever the future brings our way. All those experiences have a way of strengthening us. People like my daughter were terrible to get along with and made life just about as miserable as it could get. Yet life forces us to make choices that seem like we've got to go through hell to get to heaven. It's like weight lifting where the weights have to be lifted to get the muscles.
I joined Toastmasters to learn public speaking. I won a lot of awards and became the president of a club which really had some talented speakers known throughout the country. I used to think there are people out there more insane then I am with them wanting me to be president of their club. I mean I partied with outlaw bikers and have the most rebellious personality I think anybody could have. My point in bringing this all up is life is perfect just the way it comes to us. Even though it doesn't make sense when we least expect it, it does and every bad thing prepares us for something better. That's just life!
The young man this morning and I ended our conversation and went back to having fun and we both will probably think about ways to come up with better humor for the next time we meet to keep on having fun. I don't care who you are or what you are, there has to come a time to wake up to the fact our lives have to be enjoyed somewhere along the line, so enjoy life for a change.
Ken: so very true:
My point in bringing this all up is life is perfect just the way it comes to us. Even though it doesn't make sense when we least expect it, it does and every bad thing prepares us for something better. That's just life!---- Ken G.
This young black guy at the gym is somebody I really treasure and another point in our conversation was what gives me the right to tell another person that they can't have feelings of hate and anger about my race? I mean what right do I have to make him deny his true feelings about me or others in his life?
The woman that lives across the street from me is black and expresses her feelings from her point of view. "A black man can date a white woman," she tells me, "but you don't see that many white men dating black women." Another time one of her sons was involved with a white woman and he brought up about how he would like her to take care of this white woman's child when they went away. Point blank she said, "I don't want to be taking care of any white woman's child." So it's racial but what the hell is the difference in letting people have their honest feelings about issues as they see it and not how we would like to see it!
people should be honest,I agree with you.I sure am,i have anger,but not hatred.that anger came out in a negative way on here the other day.i do not want it,so i fight it.there is good and bad in every race,i need to tell me that.By the way,my baby is bi-racial,so i do not care about that.what ever he is,he is mine,it does not matter.and yes,regardless of what we have been through,we need to enjoy life.thank you,ken.i like how you talk,because you make me think.
It is shift+enter to make a line break. Or type your posts in notepad and they will C&P with paragraph spaces just fine.
I will not comment much here on this case but I will say the media is complicit in the how heated this has gotten. It is like the picture in the first post. That was not Trayvon Martin as a 6' 2" 17 year old that got shot on that night. That was 12 year old Trayvon Martin from five years earlier.
He did not deserve to get shot. He also had other non-violent options that night. But instead of taking one of those he decided to beat the %#&!*% out GZ...
And one more thing:
That’s a non-debatable fact.
That is not "non-debatable."
That statement is ignorant...
I have to say, that I agree with Buck on his comments ... although I don't think I would call anyone ignorant ... but the statement is obviously an opinion and opinions are always debatable, because had Trayvon not been wearing thekind of clothing he was, maybe he wouldn't have gotten any suspicion from Zimmerman ... no one will ever know. The only reason I am commenting again is because I feel the media used this case to declare open war between the races by telling us only what they wanted us to hear so that we'd form an opinion that would make hatred boil. And the picture of a very young Trayvon Martin was part of that.
A sad, sad night when this young man decided to be tough against a guy who carried a gun. So many other ways this all could have turned out. Both people involved made very poor choices and the outcome is what we all see. We all just see it through eyes that may be clouded from our own experiences and lack of complete information surrounding the entire incident. That's it for me on this. RIP Trayvon Martin
I live next to what was a junior high-school when I first bought my place. The whole neighborhood lived in fear of kids like Trayvon Martin and most were Mexicans. My first seeing the hooded sweatshirt formed an opinion about this from what I went through here. I fought years with the school who did nothing but cover up their own incompetence. The police treated me like I was a problem when looking to them for help. Even after getting physically assaulted I had to wake up to the fact that I was totally on my own if I wanted to do anything about this situation. I even had a woman witness my being assaulted and at first she told what she seen but fear got the best of her and when it really mattered she backed down. So I am for Zimmerman because of what I have been going thorough for years. The retaliation I have gone through by these kids is unreal. At night they would throw rocks at my house which actually were hard enough to dent my air conditioner. During the school hours they would actually be throwing things at my place right in front of their instructors. My only weapon was a camera which is where I learned what the hooded sweatshirts were about. Now when I take a stand with these kids I have to just stand there and let whatever happens, happen. I can't lift a finger even to defend myself because the judicial system will give the kids rights that I don't have in any way.
Is it worth it or isn't it? In my own mind I hated living in fear so I'd ask myself what's worse, what these kids could do to me or my fear of what these kids could do to me? It's easy to piss and moan about what's wrong with our country but there has to come a time when we understand that's not doing us any good and start focusing on doing what would be right for our country. I get tired of this crap yet in my mind I feel I'm more in the wrong if I don't take a stand. In my own way I feel just maybe if enough people would just start with right where they live in their own neighborhoods in trying to make them right maybe it's be a mind-shift in making our whole country a right place to live. Young men like Trayvon are really wronged by our whole society as we all let them down by not giving them anything to trust and respect in their lives. Trust and respect are earned and earning trust and respect is the only way anybody can feel secure in relating to others in life.
I've lived here since 1997. As I wrote to Justice one thing just prepares us for something else in life. One of my neighbors was getting a new roof put on. A young Mexican man doing the work asked him if he remembered him. Then he told them he lived across the street from me. The neighbor told me how the young man never forgot me and what and my standing up to him. The assistant principle and head of the school security came over once when some other kids were causing problems. I brought up about my anger about them doing nothing about my being assaulted. Then I added, "Let's get something straight about this. This is not your problem. This is not my problem. This is our problem and unless you deal with it that way there's going to be pure hell to pay because I'll take everything these kids can throw at me including killing me. But it will all fall back on you."
Isn't that the way our whole country is? I mean its our problem and has to be dealt with that way!
NBA legend Charles Barkley on CNBC’s “Closing Bell” Thursday said he “agrees” with the verdict in the George Zimmerman trial because there there wasn’t “enough evidence to charge him.” He also took a shot at the media for giving both black and white racists a “ platform to vent their ignorance” in the aftermath of the trial.
Barkley said some “racial profiling” probably did occur the night Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin. However, he later faulted Martin for “[flipping] the switch” and beating up Zimmerman. The former NBA great recognized his thoughts were “ probably not a popular opinion among most people.”
“Just looking at the evidence, I agree with the verdict. I just feel bad because I don’t like when race gets out in the media because I don’t think the media has a pure heart as I call it,” Barkley added. “Racism is wrong in any, shape or form. A lot of black people are racist too. I think sometimes when people talk about racism, they say only white people are racist, but I think black people are too. I don’t think the media has clean hands.”
After reiterating that Martin was racially profiled by Zimmerman, Barkley said “Trayvon Martin, God rest his soul, he did flip the switch and start beating the hell out of Mr. Zimmerman.”
He then expressed his disappointment in the fact that the Zimmerman trial provided “every white person and black person who is racist the platform to vent their ignorance.”
“That’s the thing that bothered me the most,” he added. “I watched this trial closely. I watched these people on television talking about it. A lot of these people have a hidden agenda. They want to have their racist views, whether they are white or black.”
This post was modified from its original form on 18 Jul, 21:03
we are alike in more ways than we are different,yet we find the differences instead.instead of fighting each other,we need to pull together.when we do have differences,it is because each trait is for a specific purpose,like if a box of crayons are all the same color,it would not create a very interesting picture.There are biggots and bad people out there,but I do not believe that most people are,or that they want to fight.it is a correct statement that the media loves to get people hyped and fighting and emotionlly charged to boost their ratings.
I hear it's also a gun control agenda.
One thing I have always liked about Charles Barkley is he's totally real. He has said some of the most racists remarks I've ever heard but instead of disliking him for it that I have always admired him for it. What reason is there to make issues out of stuff like our racial differences in the first place? If somebody has something against my race that's their right to do so and not my responsibility to deny them that right.
Barkely's skin color never had a thing to do with his character which I've seen him mess up in life and not dwell on that but just pick up the pieces and move forward. This line probably expresses reality the best about this whole situation. "He then expressed his disappointment in the fact that the Zimmerman trial provided “every white person and black person who is racist the platform to vent their ignorance.” Just the fact that the media seems to be the most 'ignorant' with placing this trial in front of people the way it did is something I think is very wrong in our country.
Thank You for that article David. It is one of the best I've seen concerning this issue.
Would it help to add that I have a different history then most when I write what I do. In this matter my reputation is for doing old fashion body work on cars. I live in Arizona but there was a time when I sort lived like a hippy where I go over to work for a guy in California for a couple weeks and come back to AZ and live for three weeks. Once someone caught me when I was back in AZ asking me if I'd help out on this car a guy had trouble with getting anybody to work on. I agreed to try it but when they didn't bring the car to me that fast I was about to go back to California which resulted in getting the car to me really fast. The car's owner was the Phoenix Suns trainer and I didn't see him to much at the time because the Suns were in the playoffs at the time. His name was Joe Proski When the season ended Joe used to come to my shop and I'd give him stuff to do on his car. He'd have his phone calls transfered and once when I answered the phone the guy asked for Joe. When He got done with the phone we used to joke around and I asked Joe how I did. He said pretty good. It was the general manager of the 76'ers. Joe being the team's trainer was in on trades with for other players and this one was for Barkley. My association with Joe grew and we discovered we both were from Wisconsin. He used to even come out and help me on a truck I have. My work on Joe's car was done before Barkley started playing for the Suns but Joe got me into a game where he had an off night so I got to see him play a little. Right from the first I thought Barkely had a radical personality which I honestly admired about him. There's nothing phony about him and even the media never made a thing out of some of his remarks about whites. I like most felt like he was just Charles Barkley.
Plus he's got in trouble with drinking and driving here and he doesn't dwell on anything like that. He openingly usually admits he's made a mistake and picks up the pieces and goes on with his life.
Gees, if what I wrote is offensive it's probably time to give this some thought in sharing anymore. The subject just caught my attention is the only reason I shared in the first place.
It wasn't your post that was offensive Ken. I felt what Barkley said was pretty spot on. I suppose that makes me pudding, too, whatever that means. I thought people were supposed to be able to discuss things here, too.
NEEDZ MORE PUDDING
"THERE IS NEVER A BAD TIME FOR PUDDING" Capt,Murphy ,,sealab 2021
pudding things in perspective
we all have our personal gifts and problems!
Barkley has always been real and that's what I like about him. If he called me 'white trash' I respect him more for doing that then trying to control what he says because it might be wrong in the majorities eyes. My own thinking on this is it totally distracts from serious issues that most could never understand or actually even discuss in any way!
Like Obama said Trayvon Martin could've been him and from reading posts it seems like most people wished it would've been him yet nobody has any constructive suggestions about making our country right for all human beings to live in. It seems to me we've become our own worst enemies.
....she sayed pudding to try and lighten things up,I guess.
I am glad that I moved out of the states.
"Could a greater miracle take place than to look through each others eyes for an instant?" Henry David Thoreau
Nope. But IMO the media and many who decry Zimmerman seem to have that burden. Most people are just deceived in an ongoing policy of Divide et Impera.
Let's not forget that Zimmerman has African ancestry himself, that he voted for Obama, tutored black kids for free, has a number of black friends that have defended him, that he dated black women and went to bat for a homeless black man who was beaten by a white man.
An honest question to ask here: If Trevon Martin had killed Zimmerman, would we have heard about this incident? My guess is not. Outside of local coverage, the media would have ignored it. Just like the thousands of murders of black youths that occur in American cities yearly. That is why "racism" was invoked. To inflame the public. To set people against each other. To doubt the ethics of our fellow citizens.
IMO, behind this is an attack on the the most basic human right of all: the right of self defense. Only the police (State) is suppossed be allowed to defend a person. People that are attacked are to run and hide and wait to be saved.
That Zimmerman should be convicted because a 911 operator advised him not to follow Martin. One might argue that Zimmerman exercised poor judgement in following Martin, but note that a 911 operator has no authority to "order" a person do do or not to do something. Note that Zimmerman was on a citizens watch group in a area that had criminal break ins. Note that the claim of "stalking" Martin was untrue. Following someone is not "stalking". There was no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin at any other time.
So, should Zimmerman be put in a cage for any of this?
NBC apparently edited the 911 recording to give the appearance of racism This is just one of many indications that the media wished to portray Zimmerman in a negative light. When exposed. and in the face of a lawsuit by Zimmerman, two employees were fired.
And why were the pictures of Martin the ones taken years before that depicted him as a child instead of current photos as a 157 lb strong youth? And why were the pictures of Martin the ones taken years before that depicted him as a child instead of current photos?
This post was modified from its original form on 20 Jul, 21:07
The death of Trevon Martin is tragic. . IMO, it always is when any youth is killed. Even if that youth is involved in some destructive things. Many young get involved in things that they later reject. They grow out of it. That is what youth is about. Making mistakes. Those mistakes should not be fatal. But convicting Zimmerman is not an answer. Neither is rewarding the media for their duplicity an answer.
As for youth growing out of it, what the hell is the matter with the adults in being there to guide youths till they grow out of it? The cold hard facts are youth are not given anything to trust and respect so they can feel secure in their lives so they turn to each other. I mean I seen a gang initiation here where a black boy was on the ground getting kicked and punched by Mexican boys that I thought was a racial incident. I took pictures of this and when I went to the school they knew that it was going to happen but actually seemed to damn dumb to stop it.
I was involved with a woman once who had a eight year old son that had all the right things in his life. There was little league baseball, martial arts, church activities and anything that would shape his character in a right way. I didn't see her for years but then read the headlines about four youth being killed by a drunk driver, It was a young Mexican man who was celebrating his 18th birthday. The boys stayed up late watching old movies and were just getting home. The car was hit so hard that it took the boy I knew, head off and it was right in front of his own home. I wonder how many mothers would like to see their child this way. So then the trial went on and the young Mexican man who did this was recorded calling this mother a f...ing bitch and his father was saying this trial was discrimination. Then a news article showed his mother lighting a candle in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary stating her son is a good boy. So inside of me when I see Mexicans drinking in front of there kids my mind goes to this happening and I become unglued. To me it is their race that I see this from the most and I strongly feel they are sending a massage to their children dad's laughing and having fun when he's drinking so they grow up with that's the way to have fun gets planted in their minds. So yes I'm totally racial about this but somebody offer some better way to deal with it then remembering that mother seeing her son with his head off after the car being hit so hard by somebody that had drinking role modeled to them.
To me fighting racism or making racism an issue is more racism then anything. Look at our own government turning people against Muslims and that's easily accepted in our country yet people don't object to doing stuff like that.
There is a desperate need for these kids to have positive leadership,absolutely.That is one of many reasons for these problems.
Also,I am not against "stand your ground",which may shock you.
Some one had mentioned this may be a gun control issue,and I think they are right.As you can see,this is a very emotionally charged issue.If they can not get the people to allow them to disarm law abiding citizens based on reason,because there is no reason there,then they will get the people to allow these laws to disarm them based on emotion.We can not allow this.
I went to the gym this morning and run into the young black man. Usually our communication centers totally around humor and I have told him about discussing this subject here. I directly talk about us never including race when we talk with one another yet I do ask for how he sees life through his eyes on subject. This morning it was about wearing hooded sweatshirts. He brought up this is more a peer thing and when he usually went through a better neighborhood he'd always put the hood down. To me this really shows this young man character which has absolutely nothing to do with his skin color or race.
Although you brought up the subject about wearing the hood on another thread and then wrote the subject wasn't about that there I'll respond here including that shows your character to me. When you or anybody tries to hold me hostage with their behaviors it has absolutely nothing to do with race or skin color. It has everything to do with character and behaviors. The young man that I talk with moved here from Philadelphia 7 months ago and I don't even like to bring up his skin color because his character outshines something like that! He's gone through probably discrimination but discrimination didn't control him because his character didn't let it. This young man is friends to everybody as they all have a very high opinion of him. But right from the start it was what was inside this young man that shined the brightest to all of us outside of him.
So Justice defend your right to wear your hooded sweatshirt in our neighborhoods all you want but for me and many like me we'll see that as an attempt to hold us hostage to a behavior that doesn't work as well as the young man who's character shines brightly from what's inside him.
Emerson wrote that the only thing that can replace an idea is a better idea and the young man at the gym sure is a better idea then the young man this subject is about!
This post was modified from its original form on 21 Jul, 11:04
Interesting that you can tell so much about Justice and her character,when you do not know her personally,as I do...
But also,who is holding who hostage when I can be shot and killed if I do not bow down to your demands when I am in your neighborhood.If I did that,I am called a thug.
Double standards here....
What if I said I can see your character just by what you post here.I would be full of sh*t,that is what.
I can not tell just from that,there is more that I do not know tham what I do know,so I have no right to jdge you,do I...No,I do not.
...we all have character FLAWS,that does not make our character bad,or make the person bad.No one,including me and you,is perfect.
I wrote in my post this young man told me when he was in a nice neighborhood he didn't put his hood up yet Justice defended wearing the hood as if we are the ones in the wrong when we get suspicious of that. The young man places the responsibility concerning the hooded sweatshirt on himself instead of holding us hostage like those that try to make us in the wrong for our feelings about those wearing hoods.
Also if it's not from what I write how in the world are you suppose to know what my character is about? Maybe it's time to learn how to use your own mind instead of letting it use you!
Ken,whenever one group of people demands from another group that they abide by their standards,as if they have the right to do that,they are the ones in the wrong.We do not go out of our way to piss people off,but we,as law abiding citizens,do not go out of our way to bow to the demands of those who think that they have the right to set the standards either.Justic,you are never going anywhere with this conversation,it will continue to go in circles.Just let it go.Live your life,and continue,as you have been,to not give anyone sh*t,and do not take it it from others,either.Oh,and Ken,if she,and I,and Kaya,did not use our minds,we would have been dead a long time ago.You are a nice guy with much life experience,I hope that you know that just as you have much that you can teach,you have much that you can learn as well.
......"we,as law abiding citizens,do not go out of our way to bow to the demands of those who think that they have the right to set the standards either."
But we do Holly. This happens all the time. Not saying that is "just" either. Nor am I saying that those that violate the "standards" should be subjected to harassment. IMO, we as individuals, should be more tolerant. The individual Ken cites was showing tolerance for the standards set by a community. By his choice. One would wish that community would show tolerance of others. Often that is not the case.And IMO, it's been getting worse, not better. "Community Standards" for art, as an example, is part of the "Miller test" in Miller v California. .
This begs the question: who makes the laws?. Are those laws applied equally? It also appears that many laws are an attempt to legislate morality. Something I disagree on the merit and efficacy. Just like I disagree on those that have attempted to legislate egalitarianism. Both have failed. And IMO, both are oppression of the individual. .
This post was modified from its original form on 22 Jul, 8:22
This has been an interesting thread and I am sorry I was out of town last week and not at care2 much. Also having trouble with my login when I was out of town.
I think I pretty much agree with Shelah. George Zimmerman was problematic and should not have pursued Trayvon. They actually both had problematic backgrounds it appears. Yes- character flaws- not bad people.
Others have made great points- particularly from Deb E- this is about appearance not race.
Holly I had two daughters who raised me more then I raised them. In marriage I definitely learned the meaning that it takes a woman to make a man. Your gender is controlling and manipulating which is a God given gift. The problem in relationships is that males enable themselves to be controlled and manipulated which offers females weakness instead of strength and males feel deceived because they fall for the control and manipulation. Then in my life along comes a daughter trying to kill herself. I mean this girl was so good at the female game that I confidently write she could've convinced the pope he was an atheist. With her there was no doubt in my mind that I knew I had messed up in forming my relationship with her mother and I could not do that with her. It takes a male's earning a female's trust and respect so she can feel secure in being herself to relate in a relationship.
All my words are doing is earning trust and respect so those that read them can feel secure in relating in the relationship a group offers. Unfortunately I had to learn to lead or get a sex change. I mean even children will go out of their way to piss people off because that's a way to control them. I actually intentionally went out of my way to piss the head of a committee off in a state capital so he would lose his cool and I could take him down. I'm probably pissing you off right now to the point that you think you have to straighten me out yet the bottom line is that at least even if you're writing what you are being pissed off about, we're at least sharing instead of holding it inside ourselves. So to me that's a good thing in relating and maybe we ought to count our blessing for that!
Jim, the young man I write about has a personality I'm even envious of. In my mind it somewhere in his life he developed his feelings inside himself. I kind of see it as if we reap what we sow this young man sure is sowing a damn good crop. It's like he shows respect to others and sure is reaping respect back big time and it had nothing to do with race or his skin color. To me it had to do with his own use of his own mind which he sure did a good job doing it.
ken,first you made me think,but now i am confused.i want to under stand what you are trying to say,but i just do not.i am trying.jim,they will continue to try to regulate who has the right to set the standards as long as we let them,that is why a firm no is necassary.
This conversation has been interesting. I have been following along to see where it leads.
Purely from an observation stand point. I see two sides here, both correct in what they say.
In some instances, a certain amount of conforming isn't regulating something really. To me, it is more a respect issue. We need to respect people's rights to clothing choices and how they wear them within normal limits. Certainly I would hope no one is attending church in a hoodie for example. Court rooms, no shorts. No gum chewing. Things of that nature. It is not so much a regulation as a showing of respect for something.
I think also it is proper to act (conform) to the setting in which you are. I would dress differently going to work, then I would hanging out or going to a meeting. I might speak a little more freely or casually in certain settings. I conform to the environment in which I am. To be respectful. To be more positive and productive.
Not so much someone telling you what to do. Someone saying I have a right and you have a right so let's work together and respect each other in any given situation.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense when it is put that way.I do not mind reasonable rules to show respect in court,at work,in church,at a funeral,ect.I can understand that.I guess it is only when it is done in the way that it was described earlier that I resent it,and feel it must not be tolerated.I,as Justice,am trying to see things as another person does.All parties here do have a valid point.Do you notice the obama scandals not being such a big deal right now?How convenient.Get the focus off his nonsense,and get the people to act on emotion instead of reason so that he can justify disarming people.Rambling,sorry....
Yes,I do think that I understand,suzanne.
Justice, thank you.
I agree that this has taken our eyes off the prize.
Before there were rules and regulations or difference in opinions we as human beings have only two differences. That's all there are. Those differences are some of us were put into female bodies and some of us were put into male bodies. My being in a male body serves a different role then those in a female body and actually there's a perfection to that. So probably like everybody I would've liked to see some kind of harmony in our differences but life doesn't work that way. When I married my wife I had no idea that she was controlling and manipulating me and would love to sell everybody on how wrong she was to do something like that. Unfortunately I was the problem for enabling her to control and manipulate me. My own growth came from our daughters, especially the suicidal one. She left everything about how she seen her life unfold in writing and I've shared some of that writing with a professional person once who thought is could be a movie if I had letters i wrote her. I mention this because this same guy was raised by a single mother so to me that's his main influence in his reasoning in life. Mine had to change because I knew our daughter was conning people and they would fall for that. Even people in the mental health field would get conned by her. But I got conned by her mother so that really was a major problem because like it or not children pick up on stuff like that.
So with our daughter I learned meaning of the word empathy and put myself in our daughter's mind. She wrote poetry so I started writing poetry. I did not try to get her to fit in my world but I went into her world instead. While everybody including her own mother focused on what was wrong about her I kept the focus on what was right about her and pushed her to have a dream to go for. So I am stretching Justice and Holly and probably some more of you in a way that most aren't used to. All I'm doing is changing the direction of your thinking which I learned from what I went through with our daughter. The cold hard reality was that I had to own up to my male role as a father in her life which was to lead in an accountable and responsible manner for her well-being and direction in life. To do this I intentionally earned her trust and respect so she could feel secure in relating to me. There was no doubt in my mind I made a mistake not doing this same thing with her mother before any intimacy or marriage.
So how does this fit in with the subject? Where was there anything or anybody for Trayvon Martin to feel secure about? For me the hooded sweatshirts sent out the signal he felt secure with peers. Surely it doesn't take some kind of genius to see we don't have families that children can feel secure in. Point blank respect is earned and he like most youth don't have anybody smart enough to understand this. Let's bring Zimmerman in now. I have been going through standing up to the Trayvon Martins since 1997 living next to a school. These kids have more rights then I have and I had to learn to let them do whatever they want to me physically and not even defend myself. I mean Zimmerman defended himself and look at the hell he went through. My only success I've seen is going directly at those covering up their incompetence and that most definitely includes the police.
If anything the real tragedy about this is the denial we all live in being that we are a society where one person's problems are everybody's problem. With the focus on what government does wrong or who we're told to have for an enemy or what's wrong with one political party or the other we stay totally distracted from a simple thing like understanding relationship and what our roles are in them other then having sex. It's almost like we take something like schools and say we have to prepare our youth for the jobs as if they're robots we're programing instead of injecting things like how to from relationships and making choices about who to get involved with. Things like self-esteem, self-love and self-confidence don't fit in any more or maybe they never have.
It seems to me as a society we've found a comfort zone in ignorance and don't want to leave it.
Justice, the point I had hoped to get across is the young man I know at the gym is black and my guess he's close to Trayvon's age. When I asked him about the hooded sweatshirt he told me he usually put his hood down when he was in a nicer neighborhood. He moved here from Philadelphia seven months ago and I'd guess he seen racial biases there. When he puts his hood down in a nicer neighborhood he's respecting those that want a nicer neighborhood and doing something to gain their trust by putting the hood down. This young man is very respected by people at the gym but he shows he respects other people so that's what I was trying to point out. I hope that helps to make it more understandable.
Holly, I apologize. My post above was for you. I just realized now I wrote the wrong name.
Ken, although a different topic. I feel sorry for you that your experience with women has been like that. Maybe you allow it. I don't know. I never have had the type of relationship to which you speak. I don't think it is like that for most people. I could be wrong though.
Yes you are wrong which shows by what you wrote. "I feel sorry for you that your experience with women has been like that. Maybe you allowed it." Instead of understanding what I shared and asking for clarity I read this feeling like it's a way to defend and protect female behaviors. I intentionally wrote that for instance that I would like to write that my wife was the problem for controlling and manipulating but added that I was for enabling her to control and manipulate me. I had hoped to bring across that with my daughter's behavior I fully realized that I had been the problem in our marriage because I didn't earn my wife's trust and respect so she could feel secure in her relationship with me so she would give up controlling and manipulating where two 'me's' could be one 'we' in our relationship.
A very strong point I had hoped to bring up was that without learning about earning trust and respect my own character would have stayed in the weakness category so I strongly feel controlling and manipulating are the major part of it takes a woman to make a man. A male becomes a man when he doesn't enable himself to be controlled and manipulated and earns trust and respect from anyone he's involved with.
I'm not sure if you are open to suggestions but writing you feel sorry for me or anybody is ignorantly asking for trouble. Although I usually seen it from females we have so many broken families now days where the female influence shows in males behaviors. That sympathy shows you see the person as needing sympathy instead of seeing a person with empathy and trying to understand the person. To me it's sick and I was trying to have my daughter center her thoughts on what was right about herself while my wife would sympathetically call people to let them know what was wrong about her. Can you in any way understand how that hurt big time and angered our daughter to where she would lash out at her own mother for not trying to understand her? Do yourself a favor and break that habit of feeling sorry for people or for sure it's going crawl up and bite you in your own behind when you least expect it!
Ken, I have been reading your posts for a few years now. I understand what you are saying. Trust me I get what you are talking about.
In all honesty, I was trying to be nice to you showing compassion and not being condescending.
I guess I am very fortunate to have very different relationships and feelings with my family and those I encounter. No manipulation going on here. Just straight up honesty. It works.
Compassion is different then sympathy and being nice is different then being real. My wife was into being nice to everybody. I went to the gym this morning and again talked with the young man I write about. This morning I told him about writing about him in this thread. I asked him where he got his personality and character from. His answer was his mother. I asked if he had chores as he seems to be very responsible. It sounded like his mother put it to him if you want to eat he had to work. So I include this here because I've also talk to him about things I went through with my daughter. Her mother was into being nice so when it came to chores she would tell me that she'd rather do stuff herself. Then our daughter turns 18 and it's time to be on her own but she was raised with being nice to her all the time. As I gained her confidence she used to tell me that now she's suppose to be on her own and was scared because she didn't know how. So there's an anger there that is ignored being looked at yet sure could help society if it was. For me Adam Lanza from the Sandy Hook killings fit in here too because he killed his mother first. Trayvon Martin probably was expressing that anger with wearing the hooded sweatshirt and going after Zimmerman. Zimmerman wasn't on a neighborhood watch if the neighborhood didn't have anger about what was going on.
I admit to having a bitterness about this because I live in a country that can understand feelings when they make mistakes buying material things and finding out they enabled themselves to be controlled and manipulated yet in something like relationship where children are brought into the world this sort of thing seems to be ignored.
I posted an article about countries that hate us to which there was just one reply saying Jamaica loves us. My main point about this is that I went through seeing the anger and hate of our own child because she didn't have anything to trust and respect so she could feel secure living her life and in my mind our society has spread it's behavior all over the world. Maybe you can be thankful for what's going on in your life but you're still part of a society that's not being honest with itself. What I'm writing is straight up honesty too. I wonder how it's working?
Ken, I think you try to speak for too many people through your own eyes. Not that what you have lived is not real but it may not be the case for so many. Everyone has their own experience.
I think Trayvon wore his hoodie because that is the fashion statement he made. All generations have had their own style which pissed someone or another off. Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you guilty of anything and doesn't necessarily mean you are expressing anger.
I can feel your bitterness in almost every post you write.
I agree Suzanne. I wore my hair long. Statements like a hoodie or such are a rejection or a rebellion against convention. Normal for youth.
Did I read this wrong Suzanne? " No manipulation going on here. Just straight up honesty. It works."
The reason I ask is I see this, "I can feel your bitterness in almost every post you write." as manipulation. I brought up examples of how the bikers had the same image the hoods have to many. Even the young black man at gym who told me how he always put his hood down when he was in a nice neighborhood was an example about this yet it seems like none of this is paid attention to by you and instead I read accusations about me which distract from the subject.
I am going to add that it is mainly Mexicans that where the hoods here and from those I encounter it's because I use a camera and the hoods go up to avoid getting their picture taken. I suppose you think this is my first rodeo, huh? I'm not sure what you're using for a brain but it might be time to send it in for an overhaul! I mean I've won a lot of awards for public speaking and know for sure I don't generalize speaking for to many people but I have also experienced your manipulation which have me protect and defend myself which really taught me how to use words better. " No manipulation going on here." That's funny and I'll bet you don't even understand this!
Did I read this wrong Suzanne? " No manipulation going on here. Just straight up honesty. It works."
Yes, you must have since that was referencing in particular my relationship with my husband and my daughter.
I'm not sure what you're using for a brain but it might be time to send it in for an overhaul!
Insults, that is an intelligent way to handle things. How is that working out for you?
I mean I've won a lot of awards for public speaking
Umm, congratulations. If you're ever in Jersey let me know. Maybe I'll come give a listen.
Ken, I do read bitterness and blame in much of what you write. You can disagree but that is what I am reading.
Off to work now. Enjoy your day.
You lost me on this Ken. It seems to me that Suzanne started with sympathy and has ended up with frustration. I don't see "manipulation". :
There is a saying that goes something like this: "Scorn not sympathy, for it is a gift from a gentle heart."
Many of us have had bad relationships. Sometimes the other party has caused that, sometimes it has been us that caused it or enabled it. Often it is just a bad match or a negative chemistry between the individuals involved. Such is the result of being human. Best to try and learn about ourselves and move on........... For those that have avoided such pitfalls? Kudos! It is encouraging to see successful relationships. Just an opinion, take it or leave it, matters not to me.
In some countries they actually deal with female manipulation. We don't. Suzanne's sympathy is manipulation which distracts from empathy. When Suzanne posted that she felt sorry for me that actually shows her as seeing me in need of sympathy instead of trying to understand what I wrote. It's selfish and inconsiderate and cowardly. In this same thread Holly got pissed at me and had the courage to write about it without using her words in a manner that would have me defend and protect myself from sharing. Justice had the courage to write she didn't understand and that gave me a chance to write in a manner which she might be able to understand. Suzanne doesn't have that courage and shows this with trying to control the communication . It's all about Suzanne instead of about the subject.
The reason I am so animate about this is here are two things concerning others behaviors that light a fuse in me. One is 'bullying' because I watched my daughter get bullied at age 12 and kill herself at age 19. That not only destroyed our daughter's life but so many other lives along with it. The other thing is I fell for the female control and manipulation which destroyed my own life. This same manipulation left me feeling like I was part of our own child's death and I have absolutely no forgiveness for that in any way. Suzanne's behavior clearly displays this same exact behavior that I bought into and it is in my mind the cruelest and most destructive behavior in existence to me. The worst part about this is that I as a male enabled this behavior making me my own worst enemy. Of course looking at what Suzanne writes I don't have to feel alone in what I'm writing about!
How many of you have gone to buy something and witnessed the 'nice' behavior of a salesperson who's only intention is to be nice to those they want to buy what they're selling so they can profit? It's easy to get conned but I seriously doubt many can compare what their feelings are after they fall for this and discovered they been had after the bought into the 'niceness' when it's a material object? Those same feelings enter the picture with relationships and for sure our society doesn't try to understand this in any way!
ken,you are right that there are many out there who manipulate-growing up in Brooklyn,I can be the first to tell you that.But please know that many genuinely care,too.I do not know suzanne,so I do not know what is in her heart.just,please know that there are people who genuinely care,ok.if you have not experienced that in your life,i truly hope that you will.i have experienced both the good and hte bad,so both are truly there.you will find what you look for eventually,it may not be right away.
Ken, I think above, I said maybe you allowed yourself to be manipulated. In your last post you stated you did. I am glad you can accept your own fault in that if it is the case.
I am not making this about me. I have listened to the same stories basically above that you have told over and over for a few years now with the exception of your conversations with the people at the gym. I hear what you are saying and you know what, I do feel sorry for you. It's a sad tale.
Of course looking at what Suzanne writes I don't have to feel alone in what I'm writing about!
WTF does that even mean?
Ken, you don't know me or my life, or experiences I have had, how I speak, what I think...I am not your wife. You need to grow a pair and move on from that whole evil woman manipulation thing. It comes off almost paranoid.
I am pretty much done with this conversation with you as you clearly have an idea in your head that would mar any further conversation. It is pretty clear at this point that their is not respect between the two of us. I can live with that.
Justice, I grew up and live right across the river in Hudson County. I am not saying I have not met good, bad people or had good, bad experiences or just learning experiences in my life. We all have. We all grow up somewhere and the grass is certainly not always greener.
Justice offering sympathy is manipulation and my point about this is it's very cowardly thing to do because it totally shows a lack of understanding and only operating on what one considers right for another in just their own individual mind. When you once wrote that you didn't understand something that shows that you are open to sharing instead of separating yourself to just what goes on in just your mind. I share my thoughts about this from seeing what offering sympathy did to not only my daughter but many others in life. It then makes them outcasts from being treated as real human beings because those that buy into the sympathy then see the ones sympathetically branded as inferior needing only sympathy. Once that happens it just drives them into a deeper black hole and this is my reason for feeling it's a terrible behavior. It's that isolating another human being from others with just goes on in one own mind that shows there is no real caring about it.
As for finding what I'm looking for, I've already found it. Stuff happens in life that probably has a higher meaning to it that human minds don't understand. I doubt I'd be writing some of things that I write if it wasn't for experiencing the things I have in life so I have found a perfection to that which has me appreciating my life as a gift that I'll keep unwrapping till I die.
Ken,there are times when a person offering sympathy is being manipulative,but it is not always the case.There are manipulative people,and there are people who truly are caring,as Justice has said.Also,just as she has said,I have experienced both.When I have sympathy toward another,it is not always because I see them as inferiour or that I am manipulating them.
Right next to where I live there was a young man who limped pretty bad. I noticed he used a wheel chair sometimes too. One day I asked him if he was in an accident. He told me he tried to kill himself by shooting himself in the head and this was the result. Then he went on about his parents were bikers and into drugs. I ended up saying, "We sure let you down big time." I didn't see him again so the home owner was a young man going to college and into partying when I first met him and I asked what happened to this young man. He said that he also stayed with his parents to and they weren't home one night when the young man came home so the young man left. I tell about this because they took this young man in out of feeling sorry for him and I have seen so many people feeling sorry for others that they end up hurting them more with their sympathy then anything. It takes commitment, not sympathy and show me where we are a society of people that are capable of making commitments for the good of one another. I mean I watch people in the United States buy into the sympathy game of saying another country's leader is evil and look at all the deaths we enable those selling that sympathy sell us and say to myself I live in a society that isn't sane or salvageable anymore.
Sorry Holly but I think sympathy has turned into an evil and sure can't see any convincing argument that changes that!