So, following the logic of the liberals in the U.S., does this mean that there is need for a ban on assault knives now, too? Now what sort of knife is an assault knife, a kitchen knife, a chef's knife, serrated or not serrated?
I am sorry, this does not mean I do not feel the need for sensitivity, quite the opposite as they definitely need that. I just means that banning knives is not going to stop this any more than banning guns will stop this sort of crime.
You've got that exactly right, Linda! It's the person holding the knife. It's the person holding the gun. It's the person tanked up on prescription drugs and alcohol getting behind the wheel of a car.....it's always about the deranged or chemically deranged....it's not the weapon. Hell, a deranged person holding a baseball bat can kill innocent people. Do we ban baseball bats?
Diane, just about anything can be used to kill another if you are bent on doing that, a rock, brick, shovel, pitchfork, vase, cast iron skillet; they could all be used. The issue, as you said is not the weapon used, it is about the mental state of and the intent of the person bent on killing another. But this fit right into Obama's desire to ban firearms. His interest has been the semi-automatic but in this case it was handguns that were used. Handguns are the most regulated of all firearms; it is very hard to buy one as you have to have a criminal background check done and there is a waiting period.
Right again, Linda!!
Linda; if you are referring to the CT shooting on friday, that young man had 3 guns.
Why were 3 guns registered to his mother? One was a high powered rifle.
There are a lot of serious questions to ponder in this incident.
He had Asberger's syndrome and he was isolative, volatile and why did his mother buy and register 3 guns?
She was divorced and eldest son lived in NJ. There are a lot of factors to investigate here and get to the bottem of this tragedy. people with Asberger's do need professional monitoring, did he get it?
This is a fascinating link of the horrific increase of serial killers in China.
Sounds like USA and some of the gang stories are gruesome here.
Is it guns, weapons, etc. after all, fists can kill also as Martial Arts have black belts which is considered lethal.
It is the intent of the person, evil does exist. Mental Illness is a problem and why is there so much of this today? Many of the people collecting the social security disability entitlements are diagnosed as mentally ill. So, how much of our society proportionately are mentally disabled?
I do know people don't have good control of their raw emotions. Anger is prevalent today.
Self control is extremely hard for many people.
Stress, tension, panic, anxiety, fear are commonplace and many people live with this angst every single day and have difficulty controlling these emotions.
Sheila, by now you probably have seen the answer to your question as to why she had 3 guns registered to her; she was a person who enjoyed target practicing and had the guns also for protection. I will be honest, I enjoy target practicing as well. I don't presently have any firearms in my home, but do own a .22 lever action rifle that was my inheritance from my grandfather. No, I do not hunt, but do enjoy target practice. I would also enjoy learning to skeet shoot. But I also am very responsible in the handling of firearms. I do not leave them unsecured, I do not leave them loaded nor do I store the ammunition in the same place and the firearms. I have owned a handgun as well but sold it back to a gun shop. But it would not be unusual to own 3 guns, Sheila. It is not unusual for a hunter to have a shotgun, higher caliber rifle, maybe a .22 and a handgun. Sometimes they own more than one higher caliber rifle depending on what they might hunt.
I am not sure that I see the need for semi-automatic firearms, but then that is me.
Sheila, I don't think there is necessarily more mental illness today as in the past, I just think that now it is recognized for what it is and it is more acceptable to seek treatment, hence we are more aware. My mother's generation and prior to them were such that it was taboo and therefore you just did not seek help. Today depression is almost the same as the flu and people are being treated for it almost as much. When I was in my teens, you would no more admit to being depressed let alone seek any help. Again, now almost every woman having a baby is diagosed with post-partem depression and taking medication.
So that is more of where I think it is, Sheila. Not more now, necessarily, just more acceptable to talk about it, seek treatment and acknowledge it. I can also remember when if you were diagnosed with a mental illness you lost your job, it was not covered with insurance, etc. and it was not that long ago. My ex has a fellow worker that was diagnosed with depression and was terminated and there was not another electrical shop int he area that would hire him; that was in 1996.
This woman never had her son in professional treatment, groups, etc.
This was a disaster waiting to happen.
She was in DENIAL and sounds very paranoid to me. They both could have used some mental counseling.
You are right Linda, mental illness was a taboo in previous times.
It still may be; but so many are on disability due to mental illness and that includes the SSDI that goes to children with ADD and ADHD along with autism, etc.
There is a growing population of more and more children diagnosed with mental disorders and Aspergers Syndrome is very common today. They do not relate well to social interactions and why would anyone have 3 guns and encourage them to shoot guns is beyond my comprehension.
excellenet article on asperbergers syndrome.
People with Asbergers rarely ever do what this young man had done. He must have had other problems in addition to Asbergers.
As noted, guns aren't necessary if one is intent upon murdering others. You can even kill someone using only your bare hands. Our mental health system needs much improvement.
I also believe that today, young people are exposed to too much violence & become numb to it or detached, e.g. video games such as Grand Theft Auto and movies such as Quenton Tarantino's or "Saw".
His mother never sought mental health treatment for this child and as a young man he was not in groups, outpatient services .... I blame the mother here; it is a very sad case of a woman in denial who was delusional herself.
If he was in mental health counseling or treatment programs this might never have happened.
There was no mental health care given in this case. There needs to be parental improvement here as it was a case of denial and neglect. How can the mental health system do something when they were not involved. There was no intervention.
These are weird cases of weird parental misguidance with a child.
And the reason it is more common, Sheila, is the symptoms have finally been diagnosed and these things are not acknowledged as real disease issues. My fiance' went all through school with a learning disability (not mental illness) that was not yet recognized and only through his own persistence and effort did he find a means to overcome this, he has dyslexia. ADHD and AD are still not fully understood nor is the treatment fully developed. I know this as not only has my sister spent 30 years as a special education teacher working with these and other issues, but she has seen the changes in medication alone and how kids can not be maintained with ADHD on non-narcotic medications. That not all ADHD kids need to be sedated; some do just fine with a "leveling off medication that is non-narcotic". Some kids thought to be ADHD are only AD which requires the opposite type of medication usually, they need a stimulus form of medication.
I don't think there are necessarily an increasing number of children or people in general, Sheila, I just think that we now have a diagnosis and a condition with efforts to treat it.
Look back to when you were in school and fellow students; ADHD was there, these kids were just considered trouble makers. Another interesting factor is that most of them are highly intgelligent, the brighter students in a classroom so there is a degree of boredom, too as most teachers teach to the slowest students and those that grasp the concepts faster are held behind rather than taught to their level of learning.
You can't force the mentally ill to get treatment except If they are violent, then they can be committed & watched for 72 hours and given medicine. Once released, they may decide not to take that medicine. With children it is a different story. They are minors.
With a very troubled child like she had, why did Nancy Lanza not seek out professional help for him? Affording it did not seem to be an issue. She was well off.
This is rich coming from Mr. Fast & Furious:
Holder: ‘We Have to Ask Ourselves Some Hard Questions’ About Gun Rights After Conn. Shootings
December 16, 2012 by Madeleine Morgenstern
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the shootings in Newtown, Conn. mean it’s time “to ask ourselves some hard questions” about gun rights.
“As a nation I think we have to ask ourselves some hard questions. We gather too often to talk about these kinds of incidents,” Holder said inTulsa,Okla. on Friday. “We need to discuss who we are as a nation, talk about the freedoms that we have, the rights that we have and how those might be used in a responsible way.”
He added, “But for now I think we should concentrate on dealing with the situation inConnecticut and we are doing, as I said, the best that we can at the Justice Department and throughout federal law enforcement.”
An online petition calling on the White House to immediately address the issue of gun control quickly surpassed the necessary 25,000 signatures on Friday; it had more than 114,000 signatures Sunday morning.
President Barack Obama on Friday vowed to take “meaningful action” to prevent more such tragedies from happening in the future."
You can court order anyone who is considered a danger to themselves or society and it is done all the time.
There are protective measures undertaken to safeguard a patient and society and this rarely does NOT happen. There are too many medical professionals e.g. nurses, doctors, social workers, psychologists dealing with a patient not to notice blatant alarms.
Only if a patient deceives staff and family do they go out and kill themselves or harm another.
This is unusual but it may happen. There are many with dual diagnosis today which is getting more and more common. They are not with one diagnosis but several which makes it harder to treat them successfully.
ECT electo convulsive therapy is back and that is a personal decision for a patient to undergo this treatment.
This mother did not seek treatment for her son and she did not seek any interventions which is a tragedy. It appears she was in denial.
regarding the 72 hrs. a patient can file for release from committment after 72 hrs. but many factors are considered before anyone is released against medical consent. Today, in MA, a patient is required to sign a voluntary section 10 for committment and that is done within 12 hrs. of his admission to any psych eval hospital. Pts. freq. ask for a 3 day but again, it is not always granted. No dr. or hospital will release a person who is dangerous to self or others.
This post was modified from its original form on 17 Dec, 14:37
You are probably right, Sheila. Parents often times can be in denial when it comes to their children.
Actually Sheila, it depends on states, too. In Washington State we found that you cannot get a Court order for someone that is a danger to themselves to commit them; they have to do so voluntarily. If they are a danger to others, yes, they can be Court ordered to commitment.
I don't think it is limited to Parents, family member can also be in denial, as is the patient who a lot of the time does not see they have a problem. And for a lot of parents, even if they see the problem, it is not an easy task to get help, to know where to turn for help, and quite often no help is available as the patient has to agree to treatment. Even the Court cannot order it if the patient does not pose harm to others in many states.
Section 10 is a voluntary committment and section 12 is a court ordered and believe me the system can hold you if they want to. As I said, there are those that fool the system and that is how they go undetected.
Mental illness produces many clients who are skilled manipulators of the system.
Sheila, as Linda said, it depends on the states. Each one handles the mentally ill differently. I've been hearing interviews from several forensic psychologists about the problems nation wide with our mental healthcare system. It is not working as well as you suggest. It goes beyond a few that fool the system. There is widespread difficulty getting help for these people to prevent possible future tragedies such as haqppened in Sandy Hook.
btw: Why didn't Obama mention Ft. Hood and other Islamic terrorist attacks when he spoke at Sandy Hook. The four mass shootings in his first term were not the only ones or doesn't he want to include ones that are "work place violence"? Wouldn't want to do that, would he?!
I was thinking about the Amish children who were shot back in 2006. That man shot those poor girls with a 9mm handgun. Shouldn't we just ban all guns & rifles then? Problem solved...not!
My guess is that this shooter in Conn. was never disiplined as a child, hense never really got to understand right from wrong.
Not only are these kids being bombarded with violense on TV, from Hollywood, from video games, but the State intervenes in the family life and says that spanking a child as a form of discipline is child abuse...so what is a parent do but never discipline their children.[ little Johnny boy please don't cut the cats tail off any more. Instead of giving him a spanking the parent would try to reason with him as if they were speaking to an adult.] thus he thinks that he can get away with anything
When I was growing up my Fathers word was the law of the land, we did not DARE disobey him. He was as kind and loving as he was stern.
SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD. it worked for my generation and we knew the difference between right and wrong
Thank you Dad
Frank, information coming out said he had Asperger's Syndrome. You might want to read about that and you will get a better understanding. Further, people in the community that were interviwed said that the mother had asked them to help her keep an eye on him as he had serious problems. I also know that it is not always as easy as you would think for parents to get help for their children.
Sheila, no one disputes that a person can't voluntary committment themselves; the issue is that unless a person is posing a real threat to others or in danger of real harm to themselves, i.e., suicide, cutting themselves, or equally physically harmful things, they cannot be committed unless it is voluntary. Many states do not allow for involuntary committment without a person having met this requirement. Washington State is one of these. I know, my family dealt with this. I am not speaking from the top of my head, this is the real law in that state and many others including Virginia.
Linda, each state is different. Patients have to sign a section 10 here for legal purposes to get treatment. They come in to my place only because they have attempted suicide by overdosing.
They have to be evaluated for 72 hrs. because of their actions.
Regarding Asperger's syndrome, this is the best article ... write from the dr. himself, an Austrian physician.
That shooter, Adam had more than Asperger's syndrom. He is dual diagnosis with severe mental disorder of anti-social disorder which is serious. Autism pts. don't plan intentionally such a violent act, down to the destruction of all the computers so there would be no trail of evidence.
Going miles away to a school where there were no security guards and taking 3 guns with heavy ammunition with him. He was very intent on violence and again, this was a premeditted act. More inform. will unfold.
Wow, there is very little that can be added to this voluminous page. I do have two or three comments though. One is that I BELIEVE Connecticut is a state that the ACLU BANNED forced incarcation on mentally unstable people stating that it was unneccessary as there are not enough people that meet that critera. Well in my opinion, there was at least ONE of those people that met it. Two: An article that claims it investigated the parents of Adam stated that he had adequate insurance coverage for the two disabilities that he had; those being Asbergers' Syndromen and OCD which is a rather dangerous situation in and of itself. Along with that, could be ADHD or BI POLAR or Schizophrenia. And Did any of you know that ALL PEOPLE have the necessary GENE within their bodies (brain) that could very easily be relased by the Ingestion of one Drug at a weak moment when your immune system isn't working properly to stop it from happening. I had (past tense) a nephew whose mother allowed him to experiment with drugs. Prior to experimanting, he was as normal as each and every one of us, but not very long after MOMMA said sure you can, everyone else is doing it so why not?? He went off the wall and attacked a police officer. That was the beginning of the end for him. I'm not sure what he died of but I know it wasn't old age. I think most everything else has been covered and yes, I certaibnly am in agreement with each and everyone of your statments and somehow, some way we've got to convince all of those CLOWNS in WASHINGTON and each of our State Officials that better MENTAL CARE, more harsh punishment for the criminals who have used weaponry etc on down the line, (and leave the citezens who are law abidng, the hell alone or we're going to have another Revolution on our hands before it's all over with.
Posted for Jim
I could never blame the mother for this horrific crime committed by her son Adam. Why? I have had a long discussion with a lady who has lived it. Her son was bi-polar. He started his trek when only 2 yrs old. He attacked other children, he attacked pets - killed one of their dogs. She had to put him on medication. She was warned by professionals to rid her house of anything that could be used in a lethal attack. He appearded to be better with medication for a while and for a few years. However, he still had mad, wild streaks where only her husband could control him.
At age nine he attacked her - was so strong willed and strong physically that he attacked her in bed by jumping on top of her and choking her - she finally passed out. She was lucky in that her husband came home and locked him in his room until the police arrived. The professional people told them they needed to establish an ongoing record with the police department. This was for their own protection.
There were guns in their home which they kept under lock and key with the ammo stashed elsewhere. One day her son took a baseball bat to attack her - another time he went after her with an extension cord which he swung over his head like a lasso and almost beat her to death - a neighbor heard her screaming and called the police - he was taken into custody.
She feared for her life for as long as he lived. Her husband did also. One night when the son went after her husband he got out a gun and shot him in the leg. The police were called again - and, each time the police were called he was kept in a secure psy area at the local hospital - each time for 30 days at a time. Each time he was released back to the parents where he, while on his medication, appeared to be normal. Her husband started sleeping with a gun under his pillow.
One night they couldn't find him - he was found dead in the early morning hours hanging from a tree in a park with the same extension cord he had used on her.
Unless you have lived it, I don't think any of us can lay blame on any parent. We don't know when Adam killed his mother. Perhaps the night before - perhaps he knew where the guns were, perhaps he broke open the gun case. He, apparently destroyed his computers. However, I still believe the police and FBI will find meaningful info from them.
He was filled with hate and range. He knew if he tried to attack an adult he would be killed before he made his hate statement. So, he inflicted his hate on small children - he was a coward, although brilliant, according to reports. Attended Connecticut State College at age 16 - had a 3.98 GPA. Made no friends - never spoke to anyone. So, perhaps, the reason he shot himself was when he heard the police sirens he knew that he had accomplished his mission of hate, rage and evil. Now people would know who he was, now he had someone really notice him. So, thank God he killed himself.
Now, if his mother was still alive, she would have peace for the first time in 20 years!
Tara Jane, I'm glad you posted the above. There was a time "back in the day" when parents placed their "deranged" children in a home because they were uncontrollable. We never see that today....institutionalizing a child who could not fit into society and was a threat to other people would never happen today.
My question is, when should these children be removed from society? Sheila stated that parents are in denial. I agree with that. But I also know that we no longer have a safe environment in which to "house" these children who are intent on harming other people. We use meds instead. Meds that don't work....especially if they aren't taken properly.
Tara Jane, thank you. Having lived with this with my sister-in-law and brother and their youngest; seeing the threat to the family that he posed over and over. the times he was taken to jail and then the psych ward at the hospital just to come home and start over; that is something that unless you have lived it or experienced with with a loved one you will never understand. These families need compassion, on condemnation.
Diane, that is usuallly the problem, they have to take the medication and it has to be monitored and doses changed as they progress. So many will not take the medication and as they get older they don't like the feeling they have when they take it, but it is critical that they do.
A lot of families will get their child put in a "group home" as they get older but having a friend that is a caregiver in such a home, that is a tough one, too. They are there to monitor the medication and see that it is taken, yes, but they still have the anger episodes. Sue has had ribs broken, broken nose, glasses broken, arm broken, fingers broken, etc.
They don't need a guy and they don't always even need any sort of "weapon" such as a chair, etc., they are very strong and just their own hands can do damage.
I might add that it is not just these sort of mental illnesses; people need to be aware that patients with Alzheimer's Disease can have very much the same issues. I took care of a man with Alzheimer's and one day he pickup up a little elderly lady in a wheelchair, wheelchair and all and threw her across the room; she broke her arm and we had to lock him in his room. It took 3 of us women and the owner of the facilities 2 sons to do this, though. What as sad is that he was the nicest of men and well loved; had been the head football coach at one of the high schools in the area; but the disease as it progressed turned him into a very man, physical monster. There was another man that was nearly as bad, too.
Diane, a fair number of children that are this serious are institutionalized; outside Spokane, WA where I lived is Eastern State Mental Hospital and in a separate building on the campus are 3 separate buildings for children through 18 years of age that need to be in a facility. Most of them spend the majority of their childhood there and then if not better are transfered to the main hospital at 18. About 1/4 of a mile down the road on the campus is the home for the severely physical Altzheimer's patients, too.
Because of the severe abuse of mentally ill people in the past, this is an area that requires a great deal of sensitivity, too. There were people that would commit their children for the slightest offense and these children never had a chance to leave even when they should not have been in an institution; adults the same. They were used for experimentation, also. To some extent, they still are although much more sanely now.
As a result, there is no easy answer and there is a fine line that needs to be followed; we have to make sure there is no abuse also.
mental illness is a very hard thing to endure as a patient, family member, friend.
it is stressful for all involved.
even if patients are med compliant, they are in constant need of monitoring and sometimes being hospitalized again. It is never ending scenario.
To anonymous: yes, taking some psychotropic drugs can trigger a mental collapse and rewire the brain permanently and damage that individual. Happens frequently and this is why I am amazed why people go out and experiment with drugs. The mind and brain are fragile!
alcohol abuse can damage the brain as well. BRAIN CELLS never regenerate! Brain cells DIE! I knew that as a young person and I never experimented, I have cousins who did and they suffered the consequences.
Life is hard enough and to add the unexpected consequences of chemicals which permanently alter the brain is crazy. Some people readjust and others never do.
The drugs that cross the Blood-Brain barrier are the ones that have to be scrutinized closely.
Not all drugs pass the blood-brain barrier.
Most drugs do but they do not permanently rewire the brain.
Prozac was a drug overly prescribed to those that did not need it. Everyone has some depression in life and but not all need to be on prozac. These drugs alter the chemistry of the brain and there were suicides resulting from prozac as it changed the serotonin levels of the brain. Be careful for what you wish for and I mean that as to what you pop in your mouth.
For someone like me who has 'melancholia' I see prescribed anti-depressants as poisen for my person. If you are not clinically depressed, don't take that stuff.
I also check would check out drs. as psychiatrists are the least respected and trusted.
It is important to know your dr. and trust them explicitly. Listen to your gut and interview them. I see many shrinks who are nuts themselves.
This post was modified from its original form on 19 Dec, 3:59
Sandra: sorry, I read your comment late... YES, you are Right! each state is different in mental health laws. The mental health is regulated by state law and not federal law.
The only regulation that the Federal Govt. has in mental health is: Restraints. Fed. Govt. must be clued in by all states on restrain activity of each patient.
Restraints are last resort to control. Physical, chemical restraints are done together as these pts. are violent. 4 point restraints with chemical needle injections must be documented under a guideline done by the Govt of the State and Federal. Also, the DEA is given all Narcotic sheets every single day from every single hospital around the country. These are the only required prerequisite asked for all the time.
Restraints no longer are straight jackets; but person tied up in bed face up or face down.
Monitored every 15 min. vital signs .... and no longer than 2 hrs.
I do believe straight jackets are still around though. Some pts. love the straight jackets, it secures them and they like it. There are a lot of crazy people out there and I have seen the patients I cared for in the park when I walked my dogs. They always come up to me and tell me I look familiar. I know always to be NICE to people and empathisize; because you never know.
There was a VP in Prudential Ins. Co. who decapitated his wife's head and barbecued it in front of his kids years ago in MA and I never forgot that case.
People committed in Bridgewater State Hosp. for the Criminally Insane are now being released to re-enter society. liberals are doing this stuff. You can tell how they are, believe me... gut instincts!!!!!!!!!!!
The liberals want the criminally insane released into society now.... it is with yrs. of being locked up and they are said to be fine now.... I have seen a few of them and I do NOT agree!!!
This post was modified from its original form on 19 Dec, 4:13
In MA, children who are sociopaths are 'Warehoused' from age 6, permanent institutionalized life and they are put in state hospitals and transferred to federal psych. units age 12-18.
Why? They are potential serial killers. I worked first job in this unit and I never worked again with children. It was way too sad and emotionally affected me.
I worked in prison, Suffolk County House of Corrections with no trouble. I could deal with them as they were gang bangers, thieves and admitted murderers who were never caught.
I could not deal with those children; I will not get into it but it was bad!
MA was and is doing a program with these kids and they ID them very quickly.
The courts put them into this program.
The moms are totally crazy woman, the worst of the worst.
I worked with all boys ... 16 boys aged 6 - 12 y.o. They are very damaged even before they grow up. I saw evil in a child and if you ever saw a movie called "The Bad Seed" that is what I saw and it does exist.
Linda: when anyone is emotionally upset their adrenalin levels peak and the amount of strength one has is peaked. True with mentally ill, they are strong as their adrenalin levels peak often. Brain EEGs done on patients reveal a lot. Adrenalin is released in fight or flight reactions and it gives a person incredible strength to save oneself.
Drugs releasing these brain hormones need to be carefully monitored and any patient taking serious medications needs to be monitored at all times.
That is a problem with many patients who skip the out-patient mandatory visits or they decide not to take the meds.
Mental illness is getting worse in our society and it is growing in diagnosis and I asked why are so many becoming mentally ill?
Shelia: Possible reasons for more mentally ill are we have a much larger population today than in the past so even if the proportion of the number that are mentally ill remain the same the overall numbers would be greater, more substance abuse, a faster pace of living and a lot of external stimuli that cause more stress, more use of drugs in treatment for many conditions that frequently do good work but the overall effects and the effects of a mixture of substances really haven't been well studied, less emphasis on personal responsibility and self control, and a combination of an overall greater prosperity coupled with a "compassionate" government that steps in to prop people up causing less focus of just sustaining yourself day to day by working for basic necessities. There could be environmental factors as well since determining the real causes of many mental conditions haven't been a priority in the medical profession from what I've noted and commented on in another thread here.