Looks like those demonstrations worked.

If it were Christians or Jews slaughtering Muslims, the UN would be on it like a duck on a June bug.

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In response to your questions Robert, the answer is two-fold.

First, most people are primarily concerned about what their own governments do, or do not do. They recognize that they have very little influence over their own government's policies, so they are less likely to have influence over the policies of other governments.

Second, there have been large demonstrations in support of the pople of Darfur. The simple fact that you have not participated does not mean that thousands of others have not either.

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The questions still stand: if the outrage about Iraq is not based on politics, why is there no similar outrage about Darfur?

Why massive demonstrations against Bush and no massive demonstrations against the genoicide being practiced on a daily basis in Darfur?

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Selene, I find your comments both naive and offensive.

Naive, because you seem to tie Iraq and Darfur together. The two areas are very different, and they have different histories. The issues involved are substantially different, too.

Furthermore, you seem to put people into two classes--those who oppose the war in Iraq and have done nothing to end the genocide in Darfur, and those who support the war in Iraq. Exactly what you think they have done in Darfur is unclear.

People are much more complex. One can oppose the war in Iraq for any number of reasons. I'll note just a few: 1) Pacifists oppose all wars. 2) The war was started under false pretenses, and it cannot achieve its stated purpose, 3) The war has already achieved its stated purpose, so there is no reason to continue with the occupation, 4) The war was justified, but it is too costly to sustain. 5) The war never had the support of the international community, so it cannot be justified.

Few people, perhaps no one, would support unilateral intervention by the U.S. in Darfur. Some would oppose it because of bad experiences in Lebanon, Vietnam, Iraq, Bosnia, Haiti, and Somalia (to name but a few). Some oppose unilteral intervention anywhere. Some Iraq Hawks support intervention in Darfur. Some who oppose the war in Iraq believe that intervention is called for in Darfur, but only in conjunction with negotiations.

Many individuals and groups that have opposed the war in Iraq for humanitarian reasons have also called upon the United Nations, with the support of the African Union, NATO, and the United States, to act to end the Darfur genocide. To suggest otherwise is not only misleading but also insulting.

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Those who know me also know that I seldom support President Bush. However, in the case of Darfur, the United States is really doing all it can (which isn't much) to remedy the situation.

Basically, China is preventing the United Nations from doing anything to improve the human rights situation in Darfur. China imports a lot of oil from Sudan.

There is a Care2 support group for Darfur you might want to check out.

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Buck, you've hit the quandary right on the head:

If we go in we are just exercising our muscle as the world's policeman (who else do they call on in times of trouble...France?) and therefor are to be spat upon by the rest of the world who is too chicken or too politically weak to make such a decision without the approval of the UN and its lackeys.

The problem with UN approval is that if they were to intervene in Sudan, what other tinhorn dictators might they oppose? The same ones who make up the governments of the majority of Third World countries. That wouldn't be a good thing, according to the left.

The UN has been studying the issue for more than a year with no action.

Never again can anyone fault the US for going it alone after the wretched display of lack of humanity on the part os the UN.

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UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - A joint military team will visit Darfur next week to study whether the http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051204/wl_nm/sudan_darfur_military_dc

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Some are calling it Rwanda II as the Sudan's Darfur province continues to spiral downward into complete lawlessness. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan offered a tepid call on the Sudanese government and rebels to resolve their conflict by the end of the year through peace talks rather than armed conflict. 

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=10206

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Sudan's foreign minister says his government will not confront the United Nations over its decision to refer suspected war criminals in Darfur to the International Criminal Court.

However, Mustafa Osman Ismail said Tuesday that Sudan will hold its own investigation into the alleged crimes.

On Monday, the International Criminal Court in the Hague opened an investigation into alleged war crimes committed in Sudan's western Darfur region.

Sudanese officials have said they will not hand over citizens for trial in a foreign country.

U.N. officials have given the Hague court a sealed list of suspected war criminals, which is reported to include the names of Sudanese army commanders, pro-government Arab militiamen and rebels.

The conflict in Darfur has killed an estimated 180,000 people and displaced more than two million others.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-05-07voa109.cfm

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All bets are off RP., bush could care less. Stella from my group posted this link to the BBC regarding Blair's attempts to get the US to help out economically. bush has us in too deep with the deficit and Iraq. Sorry but I am not real impressed with bush at this moment, but when have I been at any given point in time lately? ---ginger

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4071020.stm

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detailed in Friday 2:24 pm post above to the international Court.

I'm taking bets here...

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Mr. Annan added that he had emphasized the importance of providing security for the IDPs, "security for us to gain access to the needy, and security for the people to be able to return to their villages and begin to pick

On the issue of justice, he said: "We also needed their understanding that those who commit crimes, those who are attacking the same people should be dealt with."

He added that his appeal was met with understanding, by the Wali, who said "they are setting up courts and they have arrested people that they are going to put on trial." UN human rights training was also discussed.
"I also encouraged him to press ahead with his reconciliation efforts," the Secretary-General said, emphasizing that local efforts to achieve peace will reinforce peace talks in Abuja.

Mr. Annan repeatedly stressed that peace will provide other benefits to Sudan. "I noticed some economic activity in Khartoum, but if we were to get true peace, investors would come," he said. "We will have a real opportunity and real potential here. And I suspect that the leaders here are beginning to agree with that."

Asked whether the Government had done enough to improve security, the Secretary-General said it "realizes that we need to do more because the situation is not acceptable."

On the AU force, Mr. Annan said that it was doing a competent job. "They think they are making a difference and, indeed, they are. They understand what is required."

Asked to describe the situation, he said it was "heart-wrenching."

"What we need to do is to create an environment, a security environment, that will encourage the people to go back home. To go back and plant, to go back and pick up their lives and begin to recover. We don't want to see a situation where they are in camps for years and years and years as we have seen in other situations. And so it is very urgent that we take the right steps and ensure that we get them back to their villages."

Mr. Annan also met with Sudanese Vice-President Taha and Foreign Minister Mustafa Ismael, and later said they had agreed on "the urgency to re-energize the peace negotiations in Darfur, accepting the fact that that is the real means of bringing long-term stability."

Looking forward to talks scheduled for 10 June in
Secretary-General said delegations must attend "not only prepared with their own positions, but prepared to remain there and resolve the conflict before they get away."

Sunday, the Secretary-General is traveling to southern Sudan.

This article and link was from a posting within our group via Care2.com from Ala Butterfly. I am well aware that many do not care for the UN, but they do keep their noses poked into this pressing concern. The UN is not perfect but neither are we.---ginger

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In the southern town of Nyala, tens of thousands of people lined both sides of the road leading to Kalma camp to greet the Secretary-General. Women ululated, children smiled and waved, and men held up banners, including one that read, "Yes, yes for talk, war criminal people to ICC," a reference to the
International Criminal Court, the world's only permanent forum for holding individuals responsible for mass crimes.

Another sign said simply: "Welcome, no life without protection."

More than 100,000 people are living at the Kalma camp, having been forced to flee by attacks on their villages and towns.

Recent disturbances have limited the access of relief workers to the camp, where the Secretary-General heard first-hand accounts of continued insecurity and rapes of women and girls.

Mr. Annan would later describe what he had seen during his trip to Darfur as "heart-wrenching" during an airport press encounter upon returning to Khartoum from Darfur in the late afternoon.

While in Kalma, he heard from a camp leader who spoke of recent deadly attacks and then appealed for protection from being detained for having voiced his concerns. The Secretary-General immediately asked for -- and received -- assurances a Sudanese minister traveling with him that the man would not suffer retribution, according to a UN spokeswoman.

If the Kalma camp offered a glimpse of the problems still plaguing Darfur, the Secretary-General's next stop, in Labado, provided some cause for hope. There, roughly 60,000 of the town's inhabitants had fled violence and attacks last December, but half have recently begun to return under the protection of the African Union (AU) for
there.

Some 30,000 people have returned to the leveled town -- which Mr. Annan reached by helicopter -- to restart their lives.

In Labado, the Secretary-General heard a briefing from the area's AU commander, who has provided forces to ensure security for the returnees. Their discussions were dominated by concern over the great need to improve security in the area -- the same subject covered by Mr. Annan in Kalma Camp.

The Secretary-General walked around the devastated town strewn with the remains of burnt and gutted mud huts. One woman standing in front of a roofless mud hut where she plans to restart her life talked about the attack that had forced her family to flee and said she still lived in fear.

Prior to leaving Darfur, the Secretary-General said his trip had provided a "useful" opportunity to witness the situation first-hand. "I've seen things on the ground for myself and I've had the opportunity to thank the Wali" -- or governor, Haj Aba El-Manna Idriss -- "for the reconciliation efforts that he is doing here, bringing the tribes together, working with them so they can live in harmony and working with the African Union troops and the police to ensure security for the IDPs (internally displaced persons)."

Mr. Annan emphasized the need to ensure security not only for humanitarian relief efforts "but also for eventual reconstruction and recovery." He added that the international community is hoping for peace in Sudan "and we should really press hard at the political level in Abuja to get the long-term agreement that is required."

Back in Khartoum, the Secretary-General said his talks with Mr. Idriss had covered a range of issues. "In my discussions with him, I summed up that we have four problems: security, political, humanitarian and development," he told reporters at the airport. (cont.)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0505/S00458.htm

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Might help in Dafur. Someone above mentioned and LPH with Harrier jets. That plus a Regimental Landing Team of Marines who could also provide come civic actions, to stop the killing and aleviate the misery. 

I would be all for that.

Just so we don't get stuck there.

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    I kinda wonder if our presence there wouldn't at least scare them back into some form of civil type of government. It worked with Bosnia/Kosovo. Well they certainly have got my attention and I am alarmed and it just isn't right what they are living under.  But this is a serious concern and I know that this is asking alot of our military forces. Is there any other way? Have we overlooked any other possibilities? Doesn't sound as if they are getting cooperation from the government regarding the issues going on over there. Here is an intersting link that Ala Butterfly posted over in my group.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060201666.html

    Thanks for being absolute gentlemen in here. This was a good idea for a group discussion format/topic/group.  Good job RP. ---ginger

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In a combined co-ordiated effort. The UN is all over the place with no control. People complain that the aid is sold-off before it ever reaches the distribution points.

One reason we the United States has stayed out of Africa is that it has long been the ballywick of the former European colonial powers, who have routinely intervened in cris on the African continent.  The Sudan was long under British control, but the Brits are stretched even further than we are right now.

I take exception to the comment that we are 'busy patting ourselves on the back' over Iraq. We are still kinda busy there, we still have an Afghanistan thing going on, nuclear threats in Iran and North Korea, and an escalating crisis between Taiwan and China. 

But we can't sit still and watch people die. I say the hell with the condenation we'll face if we intervene.

We should get involved.

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We have not enough troops to secure the Syrian entrances to Iraq. Close and empty our German bases, our bases in Japan, and use the forces better.

A small American contingent in Sudan would have a wonderful effect. 3,000 would be a good start.

After all, it's not Kitchener and the Mahdi at Khartoum all over again.

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    Heya RP, I am on the left on alot of things but Darfur is heartwrenching and I will be the first to admit that I do not know what the right thing to do is for these people but I have always felt that the military's purpose was to help stop genocide and protect human freedoms and civil rights. Isn't that what we fought for in two major world wars? Still from the left but I do have a mind and beating heart behind my words, deeds and actions. ---ginger

P.S.- Darfur, needs someone to stick their noses in and help them out. The loss of life is tremendous and sickening. But I am well aware that our military is pressed out to the max.

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I agree,

And, I like that you threw in the Harrier! That's my baby!

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Or as the question is often asked, "Who appointed the US the policeman of the world?"

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

The civilized nations of the world should be getting together to do something. The stumbling block? The United Nations, which keeps asking for more fact-finding.

The UN's approach? Sanctions.

How long would they need to take effect? Don't hold your breath, cause it ain't goin' to happen.

...meanwhile, the 'African Union' dawdles on.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=africa&c=darfur

The only thing that the UN can agree on is protecting its 'piecekeepers' from rape charges.

What would happen if the US sent in some Cobra gunships, some UAVs with Hellfire missiles, a J-Star tracking plane and some USMC Harrier jump jets?

Answer: All hell would break loose. Not as much hell as they are enduring in Darfur, but lots of it.

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Definitely fits the definition of terrorism

April 3, 2004
BBC News

A senior UN official has urged the world to pressure the Sudan government and rebels into ending human rights abuses in the western Darfur region.

UN emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland said the organisation was getting daily reports of atrocities but was unable to help those affected.

He accused the government in Khartoum of tolerating "ethnic cleansing" by Arab militias.

"We must put pressure on the parties," he told the Security Council on Friday.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been displaced in the fighting, with more than 100,000 fleeing across the border into neighbouring Chad.

Fighting in Darfur broke out more than a year ago, when rebels attacked government targets, saying black Africans were being oppressed in favour of Arabs. . . .

FULL TEXT : 

http://www.twf.org/News/Y2004/0404-Darfur.html

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One final link that will take you to what the world is saying about Darfur. Isn't this what we as a country should be fighting against? Genocide? Time to quit patting ourselves on the backs for Iraq. Somebody needs to step up to the plate for these people. But are we ready for this one or have we done our military in from overkill and stress from Iraq? ---ginger

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=313380

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I believe we should all get involved here. All nations should have an interest in stopping this genocide.

Now, do they pose a specific threat to the safety of the US? no. I do not think they harbor to many terrorists who would plot against the US.

I do not think we should look the other way. I think we are stretched this at the moment and do not have too many options really.

What is stopping the other free nations in this world who choose not to step in? Why do we, the USA, have to be the country that leads this effort?

I am sure when we are at a point to properly focus on that region we might be ale to do something about it. I think we need to finish what we are doing now before WE do anything more than what we need to do to cripple terrorism.

It is a truly sad state these people have to live in though.

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Link to the BBC for either a read or listen to the audio about Darfur.

http://www.theworld.org/worldfeature/sudan/rwanda.shtml

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These photos show civilians killed by janjaweed militias in Darfur. They were taken by members of the African Union mission in Darfur, and kept in a secret archive. A person of conscience working with the AU passed them to Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, who passed them to us.

We apologize if you find the pictures upsetting. They are the only record we have of the 300,000 people killed in Darfur so far.

Click here to read the article by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times

This child had his face bashed in, presumably with a rifle butt, during a massacre in Hamada in January.

This man was castrated and then shot in the head. This is a common fate of male prisoners taken by the Janjaweed.

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