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anonymous what this group about December 05, 2005 4:34 PM

hi ,you certainly kept me reading there! i thought the question was tongue and cheek and amusing provoking may be,but was not meant to be offensive .i think every government end up being corrupted after a while, even if they started with the welfare of people in mind.power is addictive .you all made very good points and agree with some of the point everybody made,but historically at some point in time some ideology worked because it was right for the the way i do not agree that in an anarchist society children wouldn't be protected ,we are all aware about abuse what should that awareness stop? why are you all so frighten to be attacked ,it contradicts a bit what you re saying....isn't it what governments all over are doing capitalising on fear? i believe people all over the world want the same thing freedom to live without terror and prejudice free. technology and science are not negative how it is being used is the problem .we are all individual , diversity is the essence of life.gutter press ,trash tv, lack of education and of impartial information are tools for brainwashing people on top with crap work or no work ...people are not sheep they are scared lost disillusioned, we are very lucky to be able to communicate via our computer.i like may 68 when it happened in france because it was the 1st time workers and students revolted along side one another and it did inspire other countries.too much intellectualisme can be negative one has to talk the language of the people to be heard, not having received an education doesn't mean you are stupid in uk for ex iliteracy is growing , sad! as well nowadays i think every country ,has an elite society who rules and do not give a damn about the rest, and i am sure they all eat at the same table.consumerisme , capitalisme is everywhere even on care2 have you had a close look at some of the sponsor american express!!!!avon one of the worse beauty  product definetely was one of the worth for animal testing, why are all eco produts and organics food so expensive???it took me a long while to join care2, how come so much money has been given for so long and nothing is being really done????credit card to do donation???do you realise many vulnerable people are getting in debt because of it??what's wrong with giving when you can. after all we all know that big donation are tax deductible....sorry i think i am getting carried away here,tired. thanks for the chat. and if big brother or sister has nothing better to do than listening let's fart in his or her face.  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
Thanks Adram! September 29, 2005 3:00 PM

Thanks for your thoughtful clarification of your view and position, Adram! I'm glad to hear that you trust the proletariat, as do I. To sum up the differences between Anarchism and Communism we can go back to the differences in the ideas of Bakunin and Marx. Bakunin's interpretation of history suggests two principle elements of his anarchist political philosophy: (1) that the essence of the State is first and foremost coercive; and (2) that the modern State, being the contemporary form assumed by coercion, is a child of the Reformation---or, as he wrote elsewhere, "The State is the younger brother of the Church." These two tenets conflict fundamentally with two of Marx's most basic ideas about the State: (1) that the essence of the State is not coercion but alienation; and (2) that the modern State, being the contemporary form assumed by alienation, is a child not of the Reformation but of the French Revolution. Because he felt that inheritance (of private property) would disappear naturally in the future with the establishment of communism, which he had defined in 1844 as the "positive overcoming of private property," Marx opposed the abolition of the right of inheritance, in the 1860's, as unnecessary. With that position Bakunin disagreed. His interpretation of history led him to regard the right of inheritance as one of the foundations of social inequity: thanks to it, human beings are unequal at birth. The minoritarian founders of even the most primitive State bequeath to their offspring superior social status and all its concomitant advantages, including the "right" to exploit. These differences between Bakunin and Marx, over the basic notion of the State, are rooted in their divergent understandings of Hegel. Both men believed that Democracy was the motive force of history, the real form of Hegel's world-historical Spirit; but that is as far as their agreement went on the issue. According to Hegel, Monarchy was the generic form of the State. Bakunin agreed, and in his analysis Monarchy and Democracy opposed each other, with the result that the State had to be "destroyed" in a general conflagration. For Marx, however, the essence of the State was Democracy itself; he conceived Democracy to be embodied in a constitutional hierarchically superior to other political forms, and therefore concluded that the State had to be "realized" to its highest degree. I thought that it wold be helpful to put Adram's and my disagreements in a historical, political and philosophical context of where Anarchy and Communism both agree but diverge from each other. I apologize for such long posts but hope that those of you who read them will find them informative, thought provoking, and perhaps even inspirational in a revolutionary context. In Peace and Solidarity, Thomas My Great, Great Uncle was also a Poet and a social activist and revolutionary in his own way back at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. He wrote these words that sort of sum up the sentiment and mission of "End Americanism NOW!" I Fear For Thee, My Country I fear the vermin that shall undermine Senate and citadel and school and shrine-- The Worm of Greed, the fatted Worm of Ease, And all the crawling progeny of these-- The vermin that shall honeycomb the towers And walls of State in unsuspecting hours. - Edwin Markham --  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 29, 2005 12:12 PM

I'm not saying the masses are sheep, not in any way, I'm saying that certain individuals willingly commit themselves to being sheep. I fully trust in the proletariat.

It is just those who refuse to be anything but sheep and refuse to step out of their little insular world will remain after the revolution.

And I agree with the idea of a confederation, independent groups held together with the government for defence, support, and so on and so forth.


 [ send green star]
This is what this group is really about! September 29, 2005 12:04 PM

What a wonderful discussion and exchange of ideas and thinking that has been stimulated! This is what groups like this are really about. We must challenge each other to think and act creatively and outside of the status quo of our oppressive society and state of affairs we labor under and within. There is so much human potential for meaningful revolution and change. Being a Quaker I envision a non-violent revolution but as JFK once said, if you make peaceful revolution impossible, you make violent revolution inevitable. I am a pacifist, but also a realist. My Anarchist vision of a stateless society of mutual aid and voluntary cooperation may be an ultimate goal that goes through many different interim stages or permeations of creative experimentation and stop-gap measures that may include some manifestation of "state" as Ted suggests to provide for common defense. Actually, the U.S. Republic was set up as a Federation with the role of a national government being somewhat ad hoc and primarily to maintain a military for the common defense of the individual colonies or states. The national or Federal Government was never envisioned to be the monolith that it has become today that effects every area of our lives and daily activity. Of course the founding Fathers were hardly egalitarian. They shared Adram's concept of people or the masses as being "sheep" that were not intelligent enough or aware enough to manage their own affairs or to govern themselves. The only people that originally even had the vote were white male property owners. And then they created the Electoral College to further guarantee the protection of the ruling elite from the tyranny of the majority. There will always be, even in an Anarchist society, the need for some form of representative organization for some administrative purposes and to provide for common defense and to act as liaisons between various communities. How this organization is set up is my concern. It needs to be egalitarian in nature and anti-bureaucratic in the sense that it is voluntary and rotates so that a ruling or bureaucratic class is not permanently established as separate from the life of the community. We have seen the abuses of both capitalist, corporatists states and that of dictatorial, autocratic communist states historically and in the present day. We must find better ways to govern ourselves that is truly egalitarian, democratic, and respectful and protective of individual liberties. To address Lulu's concern about the term "Libertarian Socialism" being an oxymoron, I agree in the sense that to me Socialism should be egalitarian in nature and practice. Unfortunately, through State Socialism this has not always been the case. The use of the prefix of the term Libertarian is only to differentiate true socialism from the distorted form of "State Socialism" as it has been practiced and manifested in much less than egalitarian forms. I hope that helps! Revolution must take place on the many levels of the mind, heart, soul and the streets. Unless it occurs on all of those levels on a mass scale it will fail and we will only accompish the substitution of one form of patriarchal, hierarchal, oppressive government and state for another. Here are some quotes from wise people that I respect addressing this comprehensive revolution and transformation that needs to take place over time. We all play an important role in seeing and making it happen whether it is in our lifetime or the next generations. "All words have a magic power of their own. But the nature of their magic varies, because they carry the quality of consciousness of whoever uses them." ------Peter Kingsley -- "A time comes when silence is betrayal. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought, within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world." ---- Martin Luther King Jr. -- "It is institutions---social, political, and economic institutions---which are the ultimate molders of collective sentiments. Let these institutions be reconstructed TODAY, and let the ineluctable gradualism of history govern the formation of a new psychology." ---Bayard Rustin, 1964 -- "Everything is gestation and then birthing." --Rainer Maria Rilke "Revolution is a serious thing, the most serious thing about a revolutionary's life. When one commits oneself to the struggle, it must be for a lifetime." --Angela Davis "In America everybody is of the opinion that he has no social superiors, since all men are equal, but he does not admit that he has no social inferiors, for, from the time of Jefferson onward, the doctrine that all men are equal applies only upwards, not downwards." --Bertrand Russell "The greatest challenge of the day is how to bring about a revolution of the heart -- a revolution which has to start with each one of us." - Dorothy Day-- "We have all known the long loneliness and we have learned that the only solution is love and that love comes with community." -- Dorothy Day "The State is the altar of political freedom and, like the religious altar, it is maintained for the purpose of human sacrifice." --Emma Goldman "The first person who, having fenced off a plot of ground, took it into his head to say 'this is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him, was the true founder of civil society. What crimes, wars, murders, what miseries and horrors would the human race have been spared by someone who, uprooting the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men; Beware of listening to this imposter! You are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth belong to all and the earth itself to no one!" --Jean Jacques Rousseau  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous THANKS! September 28, 2005 11:00 PM

Ted, Adram, Sunshine, Thomas, Jessie and Barbara, for stating your opinions so clearly. And in English! And without name-calling. You see we can do it. Green stars to this thread!

It's high time I clarified my position.  I am libertarian, border-line anarchist.  Why not entirely anarchist? Because in an anarchic society, children have no protection from abusive parents. And because government is necessary for national defense.

I am almost in agreement with Thomas. But I still think "libertarian socialism" sounds like an oxymoron.

 [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
Adram, Thomas September 28, 2005 10:32 PM

I am not a big expert of Trotsky, and I shall have to read further to answer your question clearly.  But it is this idea of people being sheep that bothers me.  It sort of interferes with egalitarianism.

I would have to agree with both of you up to a point.  I so love Thomas's idea of this perfect world and it is this world of cooperation and serenity and freedom that I would choose over any where the state is running things.  At the same time, I agree with Adram that there needs to be a state, perhaps on a rotating basis, that has to make sure we don't get attacked.

The problem comes not with people, but with ideologies.  I think that until all are on the same page, the state needs to exist, in whatever way.  In desperate times, there doesn't seem to be time for anything but drastic decision-making.  But it must be added that through learning and empowerment, we will come to a totally stateless anarchist existence.  So this is not a utopia, but the final stage, the most enlightened of human existence. 

Thomas, thanks for explaining libertarian socialism further to me. 

 [ send green star]
 September 28, 2005 5:30 PM

ok..i cant answer..mmmmmm..the posts are very will read first....  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Okay! September 28, 2005 5:28 PM

Adram it is okay with me that we agree to disagree on the politics of "state." I always say that if two people agree on everything one of them is unnecessary. :-) Thomas "The motto should not be: Forgive one another; rather understand one another." --Emma Goldman  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 28, 2005 11:41 AM

I'm sorry tom but i am not going to able to agree with you when it comes to the role of the state. I guess thats why I'm not an anarchist.  [ send green star]
Libertarian Socialism September 28, 2005 11:34 AM

Thank-you Ted for explaining that my talking about degrees of being "awake" or free from brainwashing as opposed to being "asleep" has nothing to do with intelligence but awareness (consciousness), both self-awareness and awareness of what really is happening around one. People who are more awake do have the opportunity to provide leadership of insight and out-sight. But that is different from ruling, control, governing, or any form of "power over." I don't consider Libertarian Socialism as an oxymoron. I use it as another expression of Anarchism since Anarchism has such negative connotations to people who do not know the root meaning of the original Greek "anarchia" which simply means "lack of ruler or government." A Libertarian is a "freedman" (or woman) who holds to free will or is a free-thinker and one who follows their desire unfettered. Socialism is the system of the ownership and operation of the means of production and distribution by society or the community rather than by private individuals or corporations, with ALL members of society or the community sharing in the work and the products. As Proudhon pointed out, all private ownership is theft. So Libertarian Socialism is simply Socialism that maintains the freedom and liberty of the individual where there is no ruling elite or bureaucratic governing class. Decisions are made in a decentralized way through consensus by communities that may have administrative and/or liaison duties that are ad hoc or part-time and rotated by all of the members of that community while everyone maintains their occupational contribution to that community, collective, commune, etc.. I have a personal real life example of how this works. I belong to a spiritual community of Quakers (Religious Society of Friends). While we do not live communally, as a spiritual or religious community we are egalitarian and anti-hierarchal. We operate on a consensus basis. There is no minister because we believe that every person has the Divine Light within and has access to it without any intermediary. In that sense we are all ministers to each other. Administratively there is no hierarchy or patriarchy at all. We have committees on an ad hoc basis according to need to fulfill various functions of the community. Participation on the committees is voluntary as is the position of clerk or facilitator of each committee and of our Meeting for Business. Membership on committees and clerk positions are rotated annually and are approved by consensus of the entire Meeting of 100 members. All decisions of the Quaker Meeting and community are made through consensus where every person has a voice. No decision to move forward is made until unity through consensus is achieved. That does not mean that every person agrees on every point, but are in general unity about a decision or a movement in any particular direction. As we move forward every effort is made to strengthen that unity by continuing to revisit points of difference to discern if the decision is sound and the unity solid with no person left out of the process. Individual members will sometimes "stand aside" with there objections or concerns for the sake of unity knowing that their concerns are still being held in consideration as the community moves in any particular direction and may be revisited as the coporate discernment of the meeting leads. This consensus form of administration takes time and care with great awareness and discernment by all involved. But it is totally egalitarian and works well in the life of the community and in the decision making process. There is no pressure for any individual to conform and every contribution no matter how large or small is needed and equally valued. Each member of the community contributes and participates according to their ability and desire. For me this is a workable model that can be adapted and applied to any form of community. It will require a shift in consciousness among people in our society to happen or work for sure. Anarchist/Libertarian Socialism is an alternative to the "State Socialism" still advocated by many communists and leftists that is still rooted in hierarchy where there is a ruling vanguard party elite and a professional bureaucratic class. Libertarian Socialism says that Socialism must operate on a stateless basis that is truly egalitarian where all members of the society and community are both free and equal and that any form of organization or administration be formed on a somewhat ad hoc basis that does not enshrine a ruling bureaucratic class but that any such roles be voluntary, part-time, supported by consensus, and continuously rotating. It is ownership in common, not privately, and the protection of individual freedom and desire balanced with mutual aid and voluntary cooperation toward consensus, unity and the common good. Some say that is too utopian. I say it is entirely possible as the expression our truest human nature freed from the "domestication" and "alienation" of the state. Thomas M.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
? September 28, 2005 7:44 AM

Ted could you tell me specifically what you dislike about Trotskyism. Thanks

 [ send green star]
 September 28, 2005 7:41 AM

The sheep can only be made human if they want to, and there are simply some people who refuse to be anything but sheep. There must be leaders, not just one mind you but several.

I think there'll ever be a complete world spanning communist democracy because as much as I hate to say it capitalists just won't die. There will always be the selfish, materialistic, vain portion of humanity and they will fight with all their will against us. There needs to be reps for a government to work and government we'll need to defend us from the capitalist empires. I comes down to the fact that with no or a weak government(nor totalitarian like maybe medium government steps in when absoulutely nessicary and stays out for the most part) we a vulnerable, and that I can not abide by that. 

 [ send green star]
Thomas, Jessie, Barbara September 27, 2005 10:09 PM

Barbara, you are right that these terms are used to class and terrify others.  They are used for propaganda and "brainwashing" purposes.  Personally, i want freedom to reign (call it democracy or whatever you want).

Jessie, I believe what Thomas is stating is just a fact of life.  Some people are more "brainwashed" than others.  This doesn't mean their intellect is any shorter.  It just means that for some reason they have gfallen victim to the capitalist mentality.  If by no choice of yours you keep drinking radiated water, then you will get cancer no matter how healthy you are.  This is not a great example, but I believe that we all should help in empowering people.  When I canvass, I don't think i am superior to others just because I tell them it is time for change and ask them if they want to join me and help other empower themselves.

Thomas, I have been told very often that libertarian socialist is an oxymoron or simply silly.  I must admit that I don't use the term, but have been told about it.  Can you enlighten me on this point?

I do agree that the ideal society is what Thomas envisages.  I also agree with Adram's take on most communist theory, although i have a bit of a problem with Trotskyism and the "sheep" following the herd.

 [ send green star]
 September 27, 2005 3:26 PM

The Righties can't say "Left Wing", without saying EXTREME Left Wing. They think it's all one word. Just like they can't tell the difference between Communists, Anarchists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Trotskyists, etc. etc. Let's NOT allow THEM to define the terms of discourse! Let's TAKE BACK THE LANGUAGE! Let's CHALLENGE THEM and their phoney "definition" whenever they come up with that!

After all, we know what we're talking about! we can't allow them to frame OUR discourse! When you allow that, you've conceded. Challenge them at every turn! Already, Red-baiting doesn't have the impact that it did just a short while ago -- as all the proud Reds and Rebels and Lefties have "come out of the closet", like the Gay people did, and owned up to their beliefs -- which turned out to be more prevalent than maybe some had believed, in their isolation!

But, we still have to smoosh this "extreme" nonsense. It's their new form of Red-baiting. {The Right is really "extreme" -- extremely selfish and evil! Whatever our stripe of Leftie -- we are still for the People -- AND THAT IS NOT ANY SORT OF "EXTREME" THING TO BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!}

{Maybe ask one of them -- in due time, when appropriate -- what a non-"extreme" Leftist would be?} {Tony Blair, maybe?}

 [ send green star]  [ accepted]

Thomas September 27, 2005 2:40 PM

Hi,I read your post (as I have many times) and there are according to me a few incongruities. I am a european socialist (I have been told that in America that means (EXTREME LEFTWING) but, at my age maybe, I do not feel extreme anything but a convinced socialist and HAPPY TO ELECT  PEOPLE TO REPRESENT ME.

You see Thomas, I think that even while you talk about no leaders and no structures you still say things like 'some people will awaken more slowly'by which of course you mean will be 'less intelligent' only you don't have the courage to say it - but the truth is that we are all different in that way BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ONE PERSON MORE WORTHY THAN ANOTHER.  Another thing you said is that the more 'awake' (read intelligent) will have  'greater prophetic responsibilities' which to me sounds like a euphamism for will be leaders.  The fact is that human beings do not function without a structured state but it should be up to the people to REALLY elect their representatives.  I am not sure that this is always what happens lately. Peace.  Sorry I'm a bit tired so maybe not too coherent.

 [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 27, 2005 8:33 AM

thxs for the welcome Ted, and Thomas & others will have to catch up another day, that's a lot of print  & my mind isn't up to it today, new glasses woudl help too, lol. Do have some concerns belonging to a site like this (and several others re America) that it may affect getting a sponsor or even entering the US if I have to, being declared a subursive (sp?) as someone else has found out they have been declared as one on another site I have been helping with Katrina Failing Rescue. Oh well.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
"I, unlike many communists, do not want to return to agrarian society." September 26, 2005 3:44 PM

Well, in a decentralized, Libertarian Socialist culture you won't have to. People will be free to return to the land now dominated by corporatist agribusiness and factory farms and pursue the art of farming and cultivating if they want to. And there will be a need for communes and communities to do so. For those who do not want to return to an agrarian society, technology will be pursued and perfected to free people from labor intensive wage slavery, as it is applied now, where people are robotized via "Taylorism." (Google that!) More urban collectives and cooperatives will use technology to create more leisure time for people to pursue their desire for meaningful, creative occupations, artistry, and trades. People will collectively own the means of production to produce the things they need and desire through voluntary cooperation and organization according to desire first and neccessity shared according to each persons ability to contribute in an egalitarian way. There will be no need for a central state to rule. People will organize ourselves through voluntary cooperation and mutual aid, within decentralized communities, and between various communities to barter and trade for needed resources that one may have that the others may need and vice versa. There may be a need for liason counsels to represent the communities in these dealings. But they can be part-time positions where members of these counsels still contribute through their regular occupation, and revolving in make-up so that there is no ruling class. It is possible to have a stateless, decentralized, egalitarian, femenist, society based on mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, ecological wisdom, technology that serves human beings rather than the other way around, and embracing a consensus decision making form of democracy where every voice is heard and respected and preserving individual freedom and freedom of desire that is both non-agrarian, and agrarian. I am personally offended by the comparison of any human beings as being "sheep" that do not desire knowledge. Knowledge is something every human being carries within themselves. While it is true that some may chose to access it more than others does not make them necessarily superior or meant to rule. Each human being contributes according to their ability through desire armed. Human beings do not have the nature of sheep but of human beings. To imply that there will always be human being that are "sheep" and will have to be ruled and led smacks of elitism, authoritarianism, and Trotskyist propaganda! Not all people will awaken at the same pace. Those who are more "awake" and free of the brainwashing of the state apparatus have a greater prophetic responsibility to help awaken others until all are free which is our truest human nature. We all do what we can and what we desire in voluntary cooperation with mutual aid to live freely and in peace and our full humanity free of the classism, elitism. racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia that we are currently bound by through conditioning and design by the corporatist ruling elite in their continuing program of "domestication" and divide and conquer. There have been brief historical moments where this kind of Anarchist/Libertarian Socialism succeeded and flourished first in the immediate aftermath of the Russian Revolution before the Leninists and Bolsheviks destroyed the factory collectives and other cooperatives and also during the Spanish Revolution before the fascists overran the collectives and communes that ran themselves very successfully. There is no need for State communism, political parties, professional politicians, a ruling elite or inteligencia, or vanguard! People are not sheep. They have been conditioned in many cases to act and respond as sheep. And they can be unprogrammed and unconditioned as well one person at a time. We are not "masses" but individual human "beings." This may sound utopian, but I think not. The current Patriarchal, Authoritarian, Capitalist, Corporatist Ruling American Empire is in the process of collapse of its own weight. We need to develop a new paradigm, experiment with new forms of sustainable communities and egalitarian institutions starting TODAY so that people have something to move toward in their disorientation as civilization as we have known it begins to come apart at the seams all around us. We have Libertarian Socialist models and theory of the past and its successes and failures to learn from and move forward in a mode of resistance and creative non-conformity with courageous cases of civil disobedience to build a new society with ecological wisdom, technological savvy, voluntary cooperation, mutual aid and an egalitarian respect for individual freedom and the value and contribution of every person. Thomas M. “Life calls us to action, and to act one must first be!” --- Christopher Fremantle “…the force of attention emanates from life itself and again returns to life as a creative and regenerative force.” ---Christopher Fremantle  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 26, 2005 12:22 PM

You're right on certain levels, but the abolition of semi-centralized government will end man. I, unlike many communists, do not want to return to agrarian society I see our future and without technology we are doomed. This world is dying we need to leave or at least have the methods to leave. Im no fan of beauracracy and i don't want it to be re-established after the revolution, but some governing body does need to exist for those that remain sheep. Knowledge can only be obtained by those who want it.  [ send green star]
What Kind of Communism? September 26, 2005 10:47 AM

If it is State Communism or State Socialism it will ultimately end up as Stalinism or Corporatism. Whenever their is any ruling elite or vanguard party their is authoritarianism, patriarchy, and little or no individual freedom. The history of the Russian Revolution and the Soviet Union and its eventual corruption and collapse has taught us that. Americanism and Corporatism (aka Fascism) is corrupt and failing. We need to foster its collapse for sure, but in my opinion what needs to take its place is a form of Libertarian Socialism that is stateless and decentralized and based on egalitarianism and consensus building where the Ruled rule themselves through true viable sustainable egalitarian, classless, communities of mutual aid and voluntary cooperation that are feminist and ecologically balanced. State Communism/Socialism and State Capitalism/Corporatism are two sides of the same coin. We need a new paradigm, not a reinvention of the current one. Communes, cooperatives, and collectives that are truly egalitarian and operate according to ecological wisdom that honors and protects all life and where every voice is equally heard and honored will transform and heal the planet. Through voluntary cooperation within and between communities our truest human nature can be realized and peace and harmony prevail. First, we must help the masses of people individually to wake up from the brainwashing and induced addiction and sleep, especially in America and Western Civilization so that real revolutionary action and momentum can occur to foment the decline and collapse of "Americanism" as we know it. Then we will experience the freedom to be creative, experiment and become truly human once again. Only then will we reconnect to our Mother Earth and to each other. BEWARE OF MEN WHO ADVOCATE REVOLUTION TO REFORM OR RECREATE THE STATE IN A DIFFERENT IMAGE OR FORM! There is no "State" without authoritarianism ultimately! BEWARE OF MEN WHO SAY, "FOLLOW ME" RATHER THAN "WALK ALONGSIDE ME IF YOU WILL!" Thomas M. “Life calls us to action, and to act one must first be!” --- Christopher Fremantle "People, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." ----Charles McKay "It is institutions---social, political, and economic institutions---which are the ultimate molders of collective sentiments. Let these institutions be reconstructed TODAY, and let the ineluctable gradualism of history govern the formation of a new psychology." ---Bayard Rustin, 1964 "No real social change has ever been brought about without a revolution... revolution is but thought carried into action." --Emma Goldman "I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation." --Mikhail A. Bakunin "Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state." --Noam Chomsky "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival." --Noam Chomsky "Resistance is feasible even for those who are not heroes by nature, and it is an obligation, I believe, for those who fear the consequences and detest the reality of the attempt to impose American hegemony." --Noam Chomsky "States are not moral agents, people are, and can impose moral standards on powerful institutions." --Noam Chomsky "(State) Communism is inequality, but not as property is. Property is exploitation of the weak by the strong. (State) Communism is exploitation of the strong by the weak." --Pierre Joseph Proudhon "The history of progress is written in the blood of men and women who have dared to espouse an unpopular cause, as, for instance, the black man's right to his body, or woman's right to her soul." --Emma Goldman  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 26, 2005 7:55 AM

Communism corrupt? Stalinism yes, but communism no its not.  [ send green star]
sunshine September 25, 2005 3:36 PM

You are right that there really shouldn't be the categorisation of someone as freak.  or as anything else.

I would have to diagree with you on the communist aspect only.  The answer you gave would fall into the communist, or anarchist, politacal sphere.

Labeling is not important here.  I know you and you are a good fighter.  Good to have you here.

 [ send green star]
FREAK & COMMUNISM September 25, 2005 1:15 PM

Well I am glad some of that has been clarified, I was taken aback by the question on the application and from my point of view and history itself, communism didn't, hasn't worked either, it is still a system of government that controls the people and most who live in poverty, and which also is corrupt .

(1) A freak of nature causing GOOD/POSITIVE effects
(2)An eccentric or nonconformist person, especially a member of a counterculture for positive action
Side Note: when it comes to humankind, there are no FREAKS & I would take it as a great offense if this group considers so
 [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 September 23, 2005 10:48 PM

its always good to have a new member glad to have you Keela  [ send green star]
 September 23, 2005 10:42 PM

oh cool looks like I made the right choice joining here  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
keela September 23, 2005 10:41 PM

this group is about changing the corporatism that has taken over the world.  WE want to change America of the world by making it a better place for all individuals.  We want people to be more humane and caring towards others.  We want the brainwashing to stop.  We want people to gain their freedom.  [ send green star]
Whats this group about? September 23, 2005 10:31 PM

I've just recently joined care and I found this group and I wanted to know what it was all about?  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
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End America's Fascism NOW!!
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