ok, I can hear the yelling now. Please, this is a discussion topic. We are all intelligent people in this group. I know this is an emotional topic for many people.
First of all, what is your definition of a "Holocaust"?
Second, do you believe a Holocaust happened?
If so, when did it happen?
If not, why do you doubt it happened?
First, I google the word Holocaust, and I find this definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28disambiguation%29
Holocaust, from Greek holo-kauston "all burnt", in its original sense refers to a completely-burnt sacrifice, see Holocaust (sacrifice). By extension the word was used in English to refer to other acts of obliteration by burning. The specific sense of "massacre, destruction of a large number of persons" is attested from 1833, usually in a context in which victims are burnt to death or their bodies destroyed. It was in this sense that the term "nuclear holocaust" came to be used after World War II, to refer to the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the anticipated result of a nuclear war and nuclear winter. The Holocaust, the systematic killing of mainly Jews, but also Gypsies, Poles, and other groups in Europe during World War II that killed 11,000,000 people in all, known in Hebrew as Shoah. Since the 1970s, this has been the main meaning of the English term. See also Names of the Holocaust. Post-1970s coinings of the type "name Holocaust" in the sense of "genocide" or "mass murder" imply a comparison to the Shoah and are often used polemically.
- African holocaust, the legacy and genocide caused by the enslavement of African people.
- Armenian Holocaust, or Armenian Genocide that killed 1,500,000 Armenians.
- Asian Holocaust, in Asia and the Pacific islands under the Japanese Empire.
- Assyrian Genocide, a systematic killing of Assyrians during World War I.
- Cambodian Holocaust, or Cambodian Genocide, the 1,800,000 Cambodians killed in the 1970s by Pol Pot's forces.
- Hindu Holocaust, a name given to the loss of life and restrictive rule suffered by Hindu Indians for centuries under Muslim rule.
- Irish Holocaust, or Irish Genocide, also known as the Potato Famine or Great Famine.
- Chinese Holocaust, in China during the Japanese occupation.
- Native American Holocaust, or Native American massacres
- Prussian Holocaust, infrequently used term for:-
- (1) Sacking of Leuven during World War I.
- (2) Deaths during World War II evacuation of Germans from East Prussia.
- Rwanda Holocaust, or Rwandan Genocide (1994) that killed 1,000,000 people.
- Ukrainian Holocaust, the Holodomor during Soviet collectivisation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28sacrifice%29
A holocaust is a religious sacrifice that is completely consumed by fire. The word derives from the Greek holókauston (ὁλόκαυστον = ὁλον [completely] + καυστον [burnt]).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
The Holocaust, also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew: השואה), Khurbn (Yiddish: חורבן or Halokaust, האלאקאוסט), Porajmos (Romani, also Samudaripen), Całopalenie or Zagłada (both Polish), is the name applied to the genocide of minority groups of Europe and North Africa during World War II by Nazi Germany and its collaborators.
Now, why in the world is it illegal to deny the Holocaust?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel. Italy enacted a law against racial and sexual discrimination on January 25, 2007. [2] Even if it is commonly referred as the "Holocaust law" in the public debate, it does not actually contain direct references to the Holocaust and does not explicitly address its denial.
Many of these countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.
Yes, I believe. Denying them is like trying to cover the sun with your finger.
I knew about the armenian holocaust. The other saturday I saw a program about international subjects. They were talking about it. One of the journalist commented that Hitler said to his followers, that if nobody remembers the armenian holocaust, the same could happen with what they are doing.
Too many folks wanted to APPEASE Hitler and his simple power grabbing started! Joseph Kennedy, the ambassador from the US to the United Kingdom, was an apease pleaor for HITLER.
When Hitler took over most of Europe, Americans would still not get into this war! FDR wanted to help but couldn't untill Hitler enticed the Japenese to attack the US.
Hitler NEEDED an enemy, and used the JEWS as his enemy to gain power.
I am partley of German desent. People will accept anything that is fed to them!
They DID grab Jews and train them to concentration camps, and kill them en mass. Eisenhower forced the German population to these death camps to show them what they knew, but were too afraid to acknowlege.
If you capitualate to an Idea, blame blamless people for your power grabbing, this kind of thing will happen.
It did happen! It is human I'm sorry to say.
Let's take it to a smaller scale. What is your favorite musical group? After succsess, what happens to them? Egos take over and ruin them allways!
Hitler had to kill Jews to be so powerfull!
You cannot gain power over folks without creating an enemy that you can save them from.
That happened for sure, and it was power grabbing that created it!
I remember going out of the cinema theatre with a stupid saying behind me that the jews are zionist and a lot of stupid things. All in a movie about the familiy. A family in a comercial neighbourhood called Balvanera, but we called it in Buenos Aires: Once (11). A family that could be of any religion, but happened to be jew, just because Daniel Burman 
is jew and know how are them. They only talk about the holocaust once or twice because the grandmother of the main character is from 
. I loved the film, it has humor, it has family, emotions. This movie is called: El abrazo partido. It´s about the relationship broken between one father and one son. The father is living in Israel and the son in Argentina.
I see a programme with three conductors who are jews. Every saturday a stupid said to them something about the zionism or the state of Israel. I learn a lot of history with this three persons, I don´t care what are their religion.
One wants to believe that antisemitism is not popular like it used to be in 1940´s but, sadly the old generations give their children someone to hate or blame, not only their DNA. Luckily for me and my brother, they give the DNA and the sense of humor.
I remember one guy in a group in hotmail who hates jews. Today I lost patience and asked what they did to him to hate them. Probably nothing. But it´s easy to blame others for your miserable life or the lack of project.
I saw photographs of a concentration camp in a museum of the WWII. How anyone who had seen this photos may denied it.
When no one has documents to prove anything bad happened, it was easier to denied, but the holocaust and the armenian had photos that are heartbreaking and one doesn´t know what to do, crying, cursing, insulting.
First of all, there were Jews who served in Hitler's Army. So if Hitler was trying to kill off all Jews, why was there a Jewish army fighting for Hitler?
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/jewishnazi.html
Sources:
William D. Montalbano, "The Jews in Hitler's Military," Los Angeles Times, Dec. 24, 1996.
Tom Tugend, "Grad student uncovers Jews who fought for Adolf Hitler," Jewish Telegraph Agency, Dec. 26, 1996.
Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.
Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called 'full Jews' served in the German military with Adolf Hitler's knowledge and approval.
Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler's soldiers, including two field marshals and fifteen generals (two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals), "men commanding up to 100,000 troops."
In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded Germany's highest military honor, the Knight's Cross.
One of these Jewish veterans is today an 82 year old resident of northern Germany, an observant Jew who served as a captain and practiced his religion within the Wehrmacht throughout the war.
Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police (Ordnungdienst) and concentration camp guards (kapos).
After WWI, Germany had to pay war damages. So Germany was broke. It was broke that children played with worthless money in the streets. 
Devaluation: Above, German children play with bundles of worthless banknotes, 1924.
So how was WWII financed?
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/hitler_was_a_rothschild.htm
Rothschild's claim to be "Jewish."
Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were created and funded by the Rothschild's
The very heart of Hitler's war machine was the chemical giant, I.G. Farben, which had an American arm that was controlled by the Rothschild's through their lackeys, the Warburgs. Paul Warburg, who manipulated into existence the privately-owned "central bank" of America, the Federal Reserve, in 1913, was on the board of American I.G. Indeed Hitler's I.G. Farben, which ran the slave labor camp at Auschwitz, was, in reality, a division of Standard Oil, officially owned by the Rockefellers, but in truth the Rockefeller empire was funded into existence by the Rothschild's.
So the force behind Adolf Hitler, on behalf of the Illuminati, was the House of Rothschild, this "Jewish" bloodline which claims to support and protect the Jewish faith and people.
So why would Hitler want to kill all Jews if he was part Jewish?
"Adolf's father, Alois Hitler, was the illegitimate son of Maria Anna Schicklgruber. It was generally supposed that the father of Alois Hitler (Schicklgruber) was Johann Georg Hiedler. There are some people who seriously doubt that Johann Georg Hiedler was the father of Alois (an Austrian document was) prepared that proved Maria Anna Schicklgruber was living in Vienna at the time she conceived. At that time she was employed as a servant in the home of Baron Rothschild. As soon as the family discovered her pregnancy she was sent back home, where Alois was born."
Koehler actually viewed a copy of the Dolfuss documents which were given to him by Heydrich, the overlord of the Nazi Secret Service. The file, he wrote, "caused such havoc as no file in the world ever caused before" (Inside the Gestapo, p 143).
One day I found in my granny´s home two books about Hitler. I began to read, because I want to know how a person like this was elected and ruined the lifes of millions. I had to interrupt because, knowing the end of the history, I knew I wasn´t prepared to discover it in this moment.
Just because something is in a book does not mean it is true.
After all, I know many science books that state there are nine planets, when now we know there are only eight orbiting the sun.
I know it, Galadriel. And the movies are full of lies too or misunderstanding of other cultures.
Imagine, I read this book until his mother died of breast cancer and decided to stop. Knowing what he did after, was a thing terrible to know.
Oh yes the Holocaust was real enough as was the forcable transportation of hundreds of thousands across Europe to the death camps. On arrival a Jewish orchestra played while the hair was shaved off. Then they went for their 'shower' to de-lice them. Naked, hurded, pushed in. Then a little trap opened and a canister dropped with vapour coming out of it. Those nearest shyed away crushing everyone back. then the choking started, and the puking, and finally the collapsing. Death was not instantateous...it took a while up to several mimutes of twitching, shuddering agony on a mass scale. Finally there was no more movement.
Then the bodies were taken out and burned in ovens and the ash scattered.
Oh yes it happened. It is just that people have such a hard time equating this persecuted race with the present day country and what they are doing to their neighbours. One would have thought their experiences would have made them more tolerant, more just, more loving. But living in the West Bank there is little of that to be had from the Jews or their fellow Arabs.
If only we could remember these things and become better people as a result. But It doesn't work that way. Hate is a dreadful thing, it divides, soils and kills. At times I hate this world and the way people carry on....and then something incredible happens that restores the faith in human nature.
David, what is your definition of a "holocaust"?
Why would someone "waste" the water showering, shaving, delicing people they were going to immediately gas?
If you were not in the gas chamber, which obviously you weren't because you are alive, how do you know it happened the way you described?
Where did you get such descriptive information?
Galadriel, Are you speaking of the one which occurred in Germany of Hitler? Yes, I believe it really occurred. I met a customer at my former work place who spoke of it and said he could never understand how anyone could be so cruel and monsterous.
Yes...I do believe The Holocaust happened...
That's a silly question. Why did the South have Blacks in their army during the U. S. Civil War??? Um, because they were being used! Hitler used them for what he needed. They were good soldiers and he needed someone to put on the frontline. Would you put your best friend or your worst enemy in the line of fire, if given a choice? There were not enough Jews to create a coupe or be of any danger to him, so why wouldn't he use them?
Why would Jews fight in Hitler's army?................that would be called survival. I am failing to see an adequate argument for even continuing this thread. Even playing "devil's advocate", the argument is weak.
I remember as a child meeting a woman who still had her "number" tattoed on her arm. She was a holocaust survivor. They have pictures PROVE the conditions the Jews were found in when they were liberated.
Other than the fact that Hitler USED Jews in his army (lame argument), what evidence do you have to suggest that it did NOT happen. I think this thread is likely to be offensive and hurtful to many. Shall we start one asking if rape is really rape??? I mean, who's to say it happened just like the victim said.......in cases such as this there usually aren't pictures, second hand accounts, reports from soldiers who liberated the victims and such. It is usually just the victim and the accused............so is there really such a thing or is it just a feminist ploy to get back at men???????? (yes, that is extreme, but again I am missing your point and feel your argument to the contrary on this thread is severly lacking)
Wondering what you were thinking when you posed the question?
Well, first, I don't believe everything I read....especially from internet sources with, shall we say "hidden agendas". But to answer that, why do folks who are too scared to admit their own sexuality beat up homosexuals? Look into the minds of any serial killer type personality and you will find some really twisted beliefs....most of which stem from SELF-HATRED. ( this self-hatred is often caused by dogmatic beliefs)
Enough said.
So, Helen, shall we rename this group "stirring the pot?" LOL
You have touched on a VERY sensitive topic!
Knowing you as I do, I think you are doing what I would have done! Therefore I am going to OPPOSE you since you are the devil's advocate here. (STEAL MY THUNDER WILL YA GURL!) That's okay, we can take turns!
Hitler May have been part Jew! Being about 40% Luxembourg german descent myself, I understand how this happened. Hitler wasn't even German himself! He was German sprieking (SP on purpose) Austrian. He had to create an enemy and did. Hitler became a very good actor! The Hitler you see on film was nothing like the reserved and thoughtfull man he was in real life. I am in NOT paying him a compliment here!
The German people were mesmurised by this extreme fanatic and after having been beaten in WWI, felt this was the only way to go! Read "MIEN KAMPF" and see how he twisted things to become a HERO!
Once his fanatics took power in his name the KILLING started! They killed JEWS, but they killed homosexuals, the infirm, retarded, and many others that were not ARIAN. And don't believe for a moment if you were said to say somthing there or anywhere that was not politically correct at the time and reported by someone, that the SS wouldn't take you away for ever and nobody dared notice!
Hitler, and his Extremely powerfull cohorts intimidated even the folks that believed in them.
It reminds me of Saddam Hussien bringing the entire Iraqi Govt. into a room and anouncing names of those who were unloyal. Taken out one by one and eventually the Govt. officials left cried and screamed LOYALTY to Saddam. Saddam gave the remaining GOVT. the PRIVELEGE of killing the others thierselves.
Hitler wasted so much talent and resorces on killing mostley Jews. that happened. The middle East were on his side because they felt he would take over the world untill undieing BRITTAN, the US, and the Soviet Union STOOD up and united against this thing.
The sad fact is that it took way to long for the people of the US to get behind this. Six and a half million Jews were exterminated in an efficiant factory operation. Hitler in extreme ego, convinced the Japenese to attack us thinking it would keep us out of the way so he could take Brittian. WRONG! The sleeping giant awoke and defeated his ass and then had to deal with the japenese later.
The sorry thing is that it took us too long to save all those lives lost in the killing factories!!
This thing is MORE than documented! The HOLOCAUST is partley the fault of the US! We should have gotten behind these folks LONG BEFORE this power hungry paperhanger was given the chance to kill over 6,700,000 innocent jewish men women, and children! Look at that number! Unfathomable, but TRUE!
Galadriel, Don't make me put on a diaper and go looking for you! (HA HA) Sorry, I had to do that!
No words...
First of all, keeping a melting pot stirred once in a while helps it from getting stale.
Second, I do not believe there is such a thing as a stupid question. I believe that thinking and questioning are important.
Third, I figured someone would find the thread insulting...hense my first post where I pointed it out. But I believe it is healthy to discuss.
Fourth, of all the posts here, Veronica is the only one who did not jump on the WWII bandwagon when Holocaust was brought up.
Veronica. I am really proud of you.
Before we can say the Holocaust really happened, I think we need to define what a Holocaust is.
I would also like to know why some countries have a law forbidding the denying of the WWII Jewish Holocaust. That law is the reason I am playing "devil's advocate" here. I believe in freedom of speech. Telling people not to talk about something does not bring understanding, and promotes prejudice. I would like to end prejudice and bring understanding. I think this thread can help achieve that goal in a small way.
About African Americans fighting for the South...there were also African Americans who owned slaves before the Civil War. There was a law during the Revolutionary War that any slave who served in the war against Britian would earn their freedom:
http://www.wm.edu/niahd/journals/index.php?browse=entry&id=5292
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/aaohtml/exhibit/aopart2.html
There were also African Americans who once earned their freedom since their time was up, stayed in the army and fought as freed men.
Now, why is it when we bring up Holocaust, many people think of Jews in WWII?
What about:
- Roma (a.k.a Gypsies)
- Russians
- Poles
- other Slavs
- homosexuals
- Jehovah's Witnesses
- etc.
And what about "ethnic cleansing" of:
- The St. Brice's Day massacre of all Danes living in England on the orders of the Anglo-Saxon king Ethelred the Unready.
- The Expulsion of Jews from France by Philip Augustus. March 14, 1181, King ordered the Jews arrested in all their synagogues, and despoiled of their money and their vestments. April, 1182, he published an edict of expulsion and confiscated immovable property, such as houses, fields, vines, barns, and wine-presses. Synagogues were converted into churches, and the confiscated goods were immediately converted into cash.
- The Edict of Expulsion, given by Edward I of England in 1290, exiled the Jews from England for 350 years.
- The Alhambra decree, issued by Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, ordered the expulsion of all Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492. Heavy taxes were inflicted and many others were killed or forced to convert to Catholicism. The expulsion of the Jews from Sicily occurred at around this time.
- 1497, Manuel I of Portugal passed a decree demanding all Jews to convert to Christianity, or to leave the country, after taxing them heavily. 5,000 Jews massacred in Lisbon in 1506, and the later establishment of the Portuguese Inquisition in 1536.
- Spain's large Muslim minority, inherited from that country's former Islamic kingdoms, was expelled in 1502, while Muslim converts to Christianity, called Moriscos, were expelled between 1609 and 1614.
- Expulsion of Acadians by British between 1755 and 1763.
- The forced expulsion of the Gaelic population of the Scottish Highlands by England during the 18th and 19th centuries which later became known as the Highland Clearances.
Well...When I hear the words..."The Holocaust" I think Of Hitler and The Horrors that Happened in WW2...Perhaps because this was the most widely talked about in School and in The Media...Alot of Movies based on this...I believe there was even a Movie Titled "The Holocaust"...There have been alot of horrors throughout our History on this Planet....This was by no means the only Horrifying Moment in History but it does stand out in My Mind...
Why do so many people talk about the "Jewish Holocaust of WWII" and not the other Holocausts? Are they less significant?
Or are we being brainwashed and told what to believe and what is important?
I agree that there were Jews as well as other cultures of people imprissioned and killed during WWII, but was it a Holocaust?
Was it worse than the slaughter of Native Americans in the Indian wars in the U.S.? Why don't we call that "The Holocaust"?
It is true that many people who were not Jewish were also killed in the same horrible way, but the Jews were the largest in number.
If everyone who was taken through "The showers for delousing" died of the gas, who was left to describe what happened? The people who carried out the procedure. Some of these were Jews themselves who were forced to do it. Unless a person is in an impossible situation, they can't possibly know what they would do to survive. Those who lived told their stories. Those in the invading armies who arrived at the camps at the end of the war also reported what they saw.
There may have been Jewish soldiers in the German army in WWII. It makes no difference to what happened at Auschwitz, and Belsen. Hitler could have been partly Jewish, but I believe the line of descent comes through the female line. (Jesus was descended from David through his mother.) So perhaps the possible inclusion of Rothschild blood was neither here nor there.
While I think it is preposterous and stupid to deny the holocaust, I also think that it is a mistake to make it illegal to deny that it happened. The English Historian who denied the Holocaust is not bad because he denied it, but stupid and unprofessional for not using historical sources to "prove" his claim.
As for Moslem heads of state who deny that it existed, that is problematical. Who knows what they are taught in school? If they are taught that it is a lie, then why should they believe claims that it is true? I would like to take them along to one or other of the museums in Austria, or Israel and explain to them that this material exists. As a non-jewish historian, I might have some small credibility.
And if there are only 1 million of a population, and 1/4 are killed...or 10 million, and half are killed...which is the greater loss?
There are American Indian ethnicities that were practically completely killed off. Was that a Holocaust? If so, why not described as "the" Holocaust?
I tried googling numbers dead in WWII, and I can only get estimates, so how can someone say more Jews died than anyone else?
http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm
SOVIET UNION -- 20,000,000 dead
CHINA -- 10,000,000 dead
POLAND -- 5,800,000 dead
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Poland lost 16.10% of is population to death.
Jewish deaths were 5,754,000.
Soviet Union deaths were 23,200,000.
...which means for every 1 Jew who died in WWII, at least 4 Russians died.
When we studied at school in the XX century, they taught about Isabel and Fernando, the catholic kings as we know them. They expelled jews and muslims who refused to convert, but we studied this as a expulsion, we didn´t see it as an holocaust. The use of words can be very tricky.
I have a friend whose ancestors where jewish, they were from Spain and Romania, very distant countries with a common story. They had to convert to stay where they were living and remain alive.
In Spain we said Holocausto judío and exterminio armenio.
Took me a few days to see what you had asked me earlier in the thread. Ok Stir it up if you will but tread sensitively on others sacred history showing them respect at all times. The Holocaust still stirs deep feelings amongst those that were present at the time, those that relieved the camps and came across a horror so unspeakable the world has never seen the like, and those that survived either in the labour camps of by being forced to administer the 'treatment'. Let those that have no heart, no soul and no sense, scoff. But as I said before this event happened in its full and terrible reality. I have touched the tattoo and heard the words.
How to define the ultimate solution from the post war trials of those that thought they were merely following orders. How to define an act of such emormity that we are still debating it 65 years later. How do you look at someone with the tattooed number on their forearm and ask 'did it happen?' What crassness. What unbelievable idioticy is it to even deem to ask. Did it happen? If you need to ask you have listened but not heard, you have seen but not comprehended. Do not deny the souls of those that were herded into the gas chambers be they Jew, disabled, Romas, homosexuals or just objecters.
Defining this act would take too long on this thread. The Holocaust has come to mean only one act in history from which all imfamy flees. At the others you mention were expellings, migrations, genocide or ethnic cleansings. Holocaust literarly mean a burnt sacrifice. You knew that. Why do we call it World War 11? That title is inaccurate as well....it just happens to be what those in academia have decied to call that series of events. In the same way The Holocaust is what non-Jews refer to when we recall the slaughtering of nearly six million people of one race in what the cynical archetects of the Nazi leadership called the "final solution".
Here I stand. I can do no other. I declare it happened.
Veronica, great question...I think the way words are termed do play in connotations.
David, you just spent an entire post condemning me for asking a question that you stated would take too long to answer in a thread. This makes no sense to me.
And in all honesty, that kind of rhetoric makes me question even more.
So I ask again...what is your definition of a holocaust?
Why is the "holocaust" of WWII concidered by many as "the" Holocaust?
The term HOLOCOST has something to do with WWII and WWI and what is happening today.
The Dictator Hitler used the dislike and perpertrated a complete hatred of JEWS to grab POWER. HIS objective was to controll as much of the world he could and to keep his minions happy he started killing JEW en mass! The bully in your neigborhood picked on SOMEBODY to be powerfull when you were a kid. The BULLY in your workplace will pick on SOMEBODY to try to get ahead and bring folks behind them.
Oh he killed others, and it was easy with so much power and intimidation. But holocaust means and is the extermination of JEWS and the others trown in because it was so easy to do.
Most of the others you cited were killed in acts of war, or in violation of war policies. Not sure if the Geneva convention was in effect then. How can you govern how to Kill and defeat your enemey anyway?
If we decided to kill one group of people and got away with it for even a short time, It would be a holocaust!
This is so insulting, that you would bring this up as though it was something that is even in question....
I'm out of here......
Galadriel, In no cognitive sense have I attacked you. I therefore reject your unfounded charge. I have on the other hand questioned the wisdom of the original question given that the enquiry can now only cause offence to so wide a group of people. I have questioned the need to define something that has been closely defined for 65 years. Before this discussion leads us into ever more existentialist landscape where even more people take offence can I suggest we leave the matter to rest in peace?
Having had such close links to survivors and to those that lost family members as well as to those who went in to clean up afterward and having read trial scripts I find any questioning of events offensive and worthless and a slightly puerile exercise. If you find that a personal attack I am sorry. I was merely using the usual language of debate. I have been careful not to level any remarks at people personally rather aiming at either mindsets or particular systems of thought. The rhetoric is emotive. The subject matter is emotive. If you knew my background (see my page) you would know why I find murder an emotive subject with some justification.
If you feel that my acceptance of the facts that I have ascertained through unimpeachable sources to be offensive to this group then you can ask me to withdraw.
Last night I quoted Martin Luther, the Christian reformer. Here I stand, I can do no other. The Holocaust as it is normally referred to stands to the Nazi Final Solution of the Jewish problem. They proceeded to murder six million and make extensive records of all they did.
First of all, I never disputed the mass killing of WWII.
I have posted before about my mom & my grandmother, and my father-in-law...but I realize some people here may not know my background.
The reason I wanted to discuss it was because I saw on the news a certain leader of a certain country declare "the Holocaust" never happened. So I thought of discussing the topic, and learned that in several countries it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. Because of that, I decided to play devil's advocate, like I mentioned above.
Do I believe the killings happened in WWII? I saw evidence when I lived in Italy and Greece.
I never asked if the Holocaust of WWII happened...I used the term Holocaust in general, since I illustrated above that there have been more than 1...and that is only a small fraction of the list since I am only allowed 6,000 characters a post.
My hope in bringing this up would be for people to remember and put an end to what I believe to be "holocausts" in the definition of mass killings like WWII.
My mom was born in Greece during WWII...in 1942. She was born in a stable (basically a lean-too) in hay or straw (don't know which) while bombs were going off nearby with only a midwife to help my grandmother. One bomb came so close that my mom was dropped in the hay soon after being born. My grandmother paniced and found my mom ok in the hay.
My mom was the 4th child. The island of Rhodes is small, and there was no food. To this day, my grandmother hides a box of food under her bed. She walked 18 kilometers just to pick a few olives off a tree to feed her family and the Jewish family they were hiding.
Thousands of people lined the streets literally dead from starvation. And that does not include the innocent children and civilians who were lined up 50 at a time against a wall as 3 machine guns murdered them, for every German soldier that was killed in Greece, no matter who killed the soldier. I saw the walls in Rhodes and in Athens...and the spot where the machine guns were anchored.
It was so bad that after the war, to raise the population to prevent the permanent extinction of Greek ethnicity, the Government of Greece created a law to pay every Greek woman a special social security if she had 4 or more children.
My father-in-law was in the 83 unit in the U.S. Army during WWII. According to him, he crawled from Normandy, France to Germany, getting wounded in the leg in Belgium. Eisenhower, according to my father-in-law was not the one who made the town go to the camp. It was a decision made on the field when they found the camp. My father in-law said that they went into town and force at gunpoint every citizen to walk through the camp.
I also know someone who is German, and she told me that many German women were raped and tortured also by Allied soldiers.
Neither side was evil. They were human...humans who wanted to survive...kind of like what is happening today in many parts of the world.
What bothers me the most is in the Saddam thread, no one told me it could not be discussed. In this thread, I have had several people post that it was an insult to even discuss it.
Notice, the question never said WWII ...it just said "the Holocaust, and most of the people here assumed the holocaust of WWII. Why?
http://www.answers.com/topic/holocaust
hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-)
n.
- Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
USAGE NOTE Holocaust has a secure place in the language when it refers to the massive destruction of humans by other humans. Ninety-nine percent of the Usage Panel accepts the use of holocaust in the phrase nuclear holocaust. Sixty percent of the Panel accepts the sentence As many as two million people may have died in the holocaust that followed the Khmer Rouge takeover in Cambodia. But because of its associations with genocide, people may object to extended applications of holocaust. When the word is used to refer to death brought about by natural causes, the percentage of the Panel accepting drops sharply. Only 31 percent of the Panel approves the sentence In East Africa five years of drought have brought about a holocaust in which millions have died. In a 1987 survey, just 11 percent approved the use of holocaust to summarize the effects of the AIDS epidemic. This suggests that other figurative usages such as the huge losses in the Savings and Loan holocaust may be viewed as overblown or in poor taste.
In the 20th century holocaust has taken on a variety of figurative meanings, summarizing the effects of war, rioting, storms, epidemic diseases, and even economic failures.
Elizabeth was right when she said I worded the title wrong...it seems like most people are not getting past the title...so I changed it.
It is still the same subject though.
Larraine, like I said, my father-in-law saw the concentration camps of WWII.
questions:
First of all, what is your definition of a "Holocaust"?
Second, do you believe a holocaust happened?
If so, when did it happen?
If not, why do you doubt it happened?
Now, already posted above the definitions of holocaust. Since I was playing devil's advocate, I do not want to leave my arguments unanswered for fear it would feed hate...
Lets start with definition...
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/holocaust
Greek ὅλος (holos) or (hol) “whole” + καύστος (kaustos) “burnt” < καίειν (kaiein) “to burn”. The term traditionally referred to animal sacrifice where the whole animal was burned as an offering. This was only done in exceptional circumstances. Normally only the bones, fat and skin were burned on the altar; the animal’s edible parts were distributed to worshippers to prepare festive dinners.
In Modern Greek the word (ολοκαύτωμα, holokautoma) has reverted to its original meaning of total destruction by fire (as in a building, vehicle, forest, etc.).
Use of the word holocaust to depict Jewish suffering under the Nazis dates back to 1942, according to OED. By the 1970s, (The) Holocaust came to be synonymous with the Jewish exterminations
holocaust (plural holocausts)
- A sacrifice that is completely burned to ashes.
- The state-sponsored mass murder of an ethnic group
- An atrocity committed on a group of people.
- The “Final Solution”, a euphemism used by the Nazis to describe the shipping of Jews to concentration camps and burned in large crematoriums
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Holocaust
http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/
... those who get to superimpose a meaning on events control the future ... [S]ince so much of our cognitive capacity is achieved via language, control of language -- the determination of what words mean, who can use what forms ... to what effects ... is power ... [T]o define [is to] create ... a large part of our reality. (Robin Lakoff, The Language War (2000), p. 42)
In response to Ruth about the Bible...actually both Mary's and Joseph's genealogy is in the Bible. 13 generation between Moses and Abraham & 13 generations between David and Jesus.
Notice when I wrote Bible, I used a capital B. There are many bibles...there is the Jewish bible called the Torah...there is the Muslim bible is called the Qu'ran. Now, just because the Christian bible is written as the Bible does not mean it is more important than other bibles.
I think the Holocaust is the same way. There have been many holocausts, but because Holocaust is written with a capital H instead of little h, it is still a holocaust.
OK...this post has taken me hours to post because of how slow this thread is...its so bogged down, so I changed the visibility settings.
First of all, what is your definition of a "Holocaust"?
As has been said above, it is the destruction of a whole ethnic group by fire. Like a lot of peoples, the Jews regarded burning as a terrible thing - a destruction of their belief of what should happen to the body after death, so to them, the cremations were just as bad as the killings.
Second, do you believe a holocaust happened?
Yes, I do believe it happened. As I said before, the people who were forced to assist in the killings and cremations reported it, as did the liberating armies. I read a book by a survivor, Kitty Hart and had no particular reason to disbelieve it.
If so, when did it happen?
Mostly between 1941 and 1944, though at first the Nazis shot a lot of people. This was found to be too time consuming and expensive, so they used Cyclon B to gas the people and get a more efficient throughput.
If not, why do you doubt it happened?
Pass. For the people who doubt it, why should people make up a story like that?
Galadriel. The number of people who died in that war and other wars is not a race, and the most dead and the worst suffering is not a prize. Nobody is denying the suffering in Greece, or North Africa, or anywhere else.
It is important to me to remember that it happened because it is a symbol of how people can behave to each other. There was a concentrated campaign of Anti-Semitism in Europe in the early half of the 20th Century, and this fed the impulsion to the holocaust.
Do you know who killed so many Russians? Was it just the Germans or didn't one Joseph Stalin have something to do with it? How many of the Russians were of the Jewish faith? Does it matter?
As the world's resources shrink, we need to recognise that we have to share them more evenly, which is what all this murder is all about. The Native Americans (earliest immigrants) were murdered too. The Tasmanians were wiped out by the British. We all have our crimes and can only expiate them by what we do in future.
It seems to me that we have to try and stamp out all forms of genocide and accept that we are all in this together. That is why I resent the US and the Brits going into Iraq so precipitately. Their excuse was spurious, and not really anything to do with the state of the world at the time. There was far more needing to be done in North Africa than in Iraq, but they didn't have any oil.
I know in Greece, a body is suppose to be buried within 24 hours...is it something like that?
My father-in-law was one of those liberators in the U.S. army during WWII...as I explained above...would he lie? Yes. He was an adulterer...but I know he did not lie about what he saw in Germany.
I think the importance of discussing holocausts is because there are holocausts happening today. Even though I am a military brat, and proud of my dad, I am not proud of this war in Iraq.
Happening today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
- Attacks by the Janjaweed Arabs, Muslim militias of Sudan on the non-Arab African population of Darfur, a region of western Sudan.
- The US evacuation and rebuilding policies for predominantly African-American New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina in 2005.
- Activists on both sides of the 2006 US immigration debate have argued that their opponents' proposals amount to ethnic cleansing.
and that list does not even include what is happening in Pakistan, Israel, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Haiti, Liberia.
We cannot change the past, but we can discuss it, learn from it, and affect today.
I think it was a terrible missunderstanding. So why don´t we stop for some minutes, hours and days, and after that we talk about it.
I think that the next time we are going to write about a subject like this, we must know that it´s impossible to disagree.
The nazis show the worst of human nature, but if we know the story of the world, they are not the only ones. Sometimes I feel embarrassed to belong to the human race when I see that kind of hate and violence.
I saw a russian movie about the WWII. They show how the nazis degradated them before killing thousands of them.
I believe we can talk about the racism that is happening today in Europe. Gipsies, africans and latinamericans are treated like they were the worst people on planet earth.
First of all...I believe we are all one race...the human race.
Second...I believe that nothing is impossible.
Third...I do not see a problem with people disagreeing.
We have lots of threads in this group. Some people may choose to participate in this thread, some may choose to participate in another thread. I learned a long time ago from this group that being uncomfortable about a subject and running away from it does not make the subject disappear.
No one is forced to read or post in this thread. The subject is there before anyone even clicks on it, so people have choices.
Okay, Galadriel - I have rejoined the group solely to post this to you.
I told you that the thread title was offensive - not because of particular words that you used, but because you questioned it in such a way as to leave open the possibility that this never happened, and that is more than offensive, it's disgusting.
You keep stepping in it deeper and deeper. You think you are going to educate people by continuing to ask the question over and over? You changed the thread title to attempt to appease people whom you had offended so as to be able to keep discussing a topic that you are jonesing to discuss.
So - let me educate you. No one has ever said that there is a contest amongst the various holocausts as to which one is worse. Only a fool would ask that question.
Nor do the numbers determine what is worse. Yes, 20 million Russians, etc., etc. I don't want to repost the figures. No one is comparing the amount of dead Russians to the amount of dead Jews or dead homosexuals, or dead Roma, or dead mentally handicapped to arrive at a some philosophical conclusion. What happened to everyone was horrible.
The primary reason that most people call what happened a Holocaust was because the Jews were singled out for genocide. The Final Solution was designed to rid the earth of all the Jews. Other groups were killed to fullfill Hitler's sick ideas of purifying the Aryan race. But no other entire group was marked for extinction simply because they were born as part of an ethnic/religious heritage. Hitler blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong in Germany.
One issue is the percentage of the entire world's population of Jews killed during WWII.
Perhaps the following quote will help you understand (granted, this is from Wikipedia, but the figures are correct).
Population changes: Wars against the Jews
Throughout history, many rulers, empires and nations have oppressed their Jewish populations, or sought to eliminate them entirely. Methods employed have ranged from expulsion to outright genocide; within nations, often the threat of these extreme methods was sufficient to silence dissent. Some examples in the history of anti-Semitism are: the Great Jewish Revolt against the Roman Empire; the First Crusade which resulted in the massacre of Jews; the Spanish Inquisition led by Torquemada and the Auto de fé against the Marrano Jews; the Bohdan Chmielnicki Cossack massacres in Ukraine; the Pogroms backed by the Russian Tsars; as well as expulsions from Spain, Portugal, England, France, Germany, and other countries in which the Jews had settled. The persecution reached a peak in Adolf Hitler's Final Solution, which led to the Holocaust and the slaughter of approximately 6 million Jews from 1939 to 1945.
According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."[15]
Do you get it, now? - Or perhaps the web sites mentioned in my next pos
http://www.jewwatch.com/index.htm - the URL for a site called Jew Watch - Jewish Leaders, Conspirators, Power Lords..., We Are Assembling Holocaust Denial Movie Archives Here, "Hoax of Treblinka Death Camp," 3.5 Minutes
http://www.historiography-project.org/misc/graf_jewishlosses.html - here's one for you: THE SIX MILLION FIGURE, THE FRAUDULANT METHODS USED BY THE ORTHODOX HOLOCAUST HISTORIANS - the are section titles from the link provided here
Maybe you prefer this one: http://christianparty.net/holocaust.htm
The "Holocaust" of 6 million Jews during World War II is an immensely successful and profitable hoax!
Whines from a holohoaxster
Do you see why your thread is problematic, Galadriel?
Now I am leaving the group, and I wish you would stop sending me netmessages. Okay, please?
Take five minutes to complete the Poll to Exile BlacksThe poll to exile Blacks is part of the Christian party web site - I don't know how it got mixed up in my post.
All of these haters are the same, Galadriel. The reason that some countries make it a crime to deny the Holocaust is to stop the hate from growing again through denial, and to remind everyone of what happened to Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc....
Think about it -
Holocaust deniers are the worst.
I do think that the Holocaust refers just as much to the forced cremations of the dead as the murders of innocent people on the grounds of their race or religion.
In the ancient near east there was once a cult of Moloch where the firstborn baby son of a family was sacrificed to Moloch, by being cremated in a brass figure. It is quite possible that Hebrews living nearby were forced into this position, so the horror would be laid down in the race memory for a long time. They also had a custom of burying the dead and not cremating them.
Ancient Greece had the tradition of cremation too for a while, so perhaps the cremation option would be a partial custom. Burying within 24 hours is a hygiene precaution, perhaps brought about by the Athenian plague of C 300 BC. There wouldn't necessarily be a tabu, as there was and is with the Jews.
I do not want to bandy details with anyone because I don't remember all the details I ever knew, and I really dislike posting website references. I don't always agree with everything on a website, or totally disagree and do not want to be committed to what they say.
I am not Jewish either. Anything I say that is mistaken, I apologise for to any Jew, orthodox or otherwise who might be offended by what I say.
We have to recognise that we are all in this together and stamp out all hatred we encounter. That is a sin by anyone's standards. We have to accept differences within reason, but not to apply other people's bigotry to our daily lives.
Elizabeth, the only person I discussed the title of the thread with was you. You were the reason I changed the title. You said the old title...hold on so I do not misquote you...
Elizabether's reply to me:
I also believe in education Galadriel. Whatever your intention, you should have couched the entire debate in different terms. And typing in a really large font is like shouting.
Don't try to make it sound as though I don't believe in education, or as though I don't believe in free and open discussion. I do, completely - I alway have. But there is a way to do it, and then a way to do it. With such a sensitive issue, you say that you want to discuss the Holocaust, you don't frame the question in a way that allows people to deny that it exists. That is just an insult to those who have been affected by it. I would talk about the Holocaust until I'm blue in the face, but not in a scenario that begins with a question as to whether or not it may have happened. I'm not doubting that you personally believe it happened, I am offended by the manner in which you chose to discuss the topic. It leaves the door open for those who hate certain groups of people and consistently deny that the whole thing took place. If you look earlier in the thread, you will see that someone else said they were offended.
My reply:
Elizabeth, I know there are people who question it...that is why I started the thread. Avoiding an issue...it is like not talking about sex to a teenager for fear it will cause them to have sex.
I believe in education. I think discussion is healthy. You are more than entitled to disagree. I just wanted you to know I was not being hateful...just the opposite...I am hoping to shed light.
Elizabeth's message to me:
It is not a matter of questioning the deaths. It is a matter of even posing the question as though there is a doubt that the Holocaust happened. Unfortunately, there are still too many people who deny that it took place at all, and this type of debate just feeds that kind of person. Galadriel - this was a mistake on your part, and I don't really want to debate it. If you can't see the problem with opening up that can of worms, then surely I can't explain it to you.
If you think, as you said to me, that it's okay to open this debate because you didn't actually question the deaths, then you are just lost.
To take a stand on one side or the other without giving evidence or admitting that it is a topic worthy of discussion is to my mind as bad as suggesting that only the murder and forced cremation of the Jews was the relevant topic of discussion, when nearly as many other groups suffered similarly in that scenario.
Of course we cannot ignore the death and destruction all over the world and throughout history, and atrocities are not acceptable in a civilised society. The reason Nanjing, My Lai, and Abu Ghraib are held up along with the Holocaust as inexcusable was that these were supposed to be civilised people, above such behaviour.
The truth is that warfare in all its forms is uncivilised and is no substitute for negotiation and peaceful sport (a controlled warfare situation conducted according to the rules where nobody is supposed to be killed or even seriously injured).
Iranians and Arabs who deny the Holocaust are not normally taught anything at all about it. Unless someone tells them it is a construct of the Israelis. It does not form part of their syllabus. It is people like European historians who should know better and shoot their mouths off in countries where Holocaust denial is a crime, who should get what they deserve.
The evidence is clear and undisputed in terms of witness accounts, empty Cyclon B canisters, piles of ash, and countless written Nazi records of the industrialised process of killing their fellow Germans, and other Europeans. Memos from Hitler asking how it was all going, memos hurrying the process up etc etc. It was all kept impeccably by a methodical nation.
Hello Galadriel and all in this group.
I read the thread with interest tonight. The subject seems to have brought out a lot of emotions in everyone. I don't intend to argue with anyone, but this topic is close to my heart and I wanted to share my experience with "The Holocaust" of WW11.
I understand there are many holocausts with many descriptions. This one was concerned with "death" in many forms....starvation, shootings, gassing, worked to death in camps, etc. I know it happened because my father spent 4 years in various concentration camps, from 17 to 21 years old. He passed away 4 years ago and I've inherited the camp documents, family letters, and other paraphenalia. I found a small Bible with his name, Dutch address and the name of the camp he was in at the time. It was given to him by the only kind German he encountered, a kapo (concentration camp guard), in Dachau. Faith kept him alive, and "knowing" he would see his mother again some day. He wasn't Jewish, but was apprehended by the Germans who rounded up everyone in a Jewish movie theatre. He said they were the best movies in town so he pinned the Star of David on his jacket to get in. They didn't like his attitude.
The kapos did what they could to prevent panic so it was easier on them to carry out their orders. When the victims got off the trains they were reassured while bands played, their belongings were taken from them and men were separated from women and children. The old, infirm, and handicapped were exterminated immediately, not being of any use to the camps.
The people were washed, shaved and deloused so disease and lice were kept in control to an extent, even though living conditions were so bad it took many lives. Work was assigned just to torment or tire them out to the point of death. This was covered up because they were supposed to be operating with human rights in mind. In Dachau the Red Cross came by occasionally to check on the "prisoners"conditions and that is when the camp and people were cleaned up and fed more than the usual bowl of soup made from throwing a cabbage into a huge cauldron of water. It was just enough to keep them alive, but not enough to keep the flesh on their bones. The atrosities were covered up for quite awhile. Perhaps that's one of the reasons it took so long for help to arrive.
I grew up hearing stories of those years from both my Dutch parents, but some my dad refused to put into words, they were so horrific. But people found ways to survive and help each other. When he worked in the kitchen he ate potato peels stolen from the garbage, bringing what he could to give to the others in his barracks. They ate slugs, peeling the slimy skin off. The Russians were even worse off and ate them whole. Small pebbles were swallowed to keep their stomachs from aching with hunger.
One of the reasons he survived the fate of so many was because he was useful. Anyone who was strong and had a trade was kept alive longer. My father played guitar and was an entertainer, a baker, shoe maker and (pretended to be) a train conductor. Even though his experience affected him the rest of his life he was able to forgive, knowing not all German people were as heartless as the Nazis.
You wondered why Jewish people did not believe in cremation. I'm not sure but wonder if it has to do with the Bible's statment that God will return on judgement day, and the bones of all people who ever existed on earth will come together to be sent to heaven or hell. Although it also says of our bodies "from dust to dust".
I hope this did not offend anyone but shed some light on some of the things that happened in Europe during the war of 1939-1945.
The holocaust did happen an it was Hitler who used the jews to gain power! Most of us here understand this.
I know this happened! there is proof of this!
Those of you who are attacking the host of this thread should be ASHAMED!
The host here simpley got a discussion going about a VERY sensitive subject! I applaude the host for wanting to talk about this subject.
Some of you are REVOLTED or DISGUSTED at the question!! If I were the host, I would NEVER have changed the title of this thread over your threats! But she got PC and changed it.
Well, damn it! DID THE HOLOCAUST REALLY OCCUR?
The president of Iran says NO!
Saddam Hussien said NO!
All these people that even are on the side of the US say no there in the middle east.
There are people here that believe it didn't happen and we wanna talk to them!
I know it happenned, I'll bet the host believes it happened!
What do you think? There are many people in this day that don't know and don't care. Galadriel change the title back and get these folks on here to tell us what they think! I'm smarter than all of the jerks that deny the holocaust and will be happy to throw facts in thier faces! You know me and now I will!
BTW Ya'll Galadriel is a very good person! I Know this and have DEEP respect for my good friend. I may be on the opposite side here from her, but, I am feeling bad that ya'll have made her backtrack when this is a subject worth discussing!
But for you PC folks to condemn her for the wording of the question is worse.
Galadriel, Please change it back to what you had!
I'll continue to give reasons why Hitler did this and help proove the HOLOCAUST happened, but I won't sit here and let you give in to the PC police making you backtrack and change the name of your thread!
This thing is EASY to argue, but where are you taking this?
Tuesdays - if you don't understand why the question and the title was offensive, no amount of explanation will make you understand.
Galadriel should be ashamed for how she chose to present the subject, or there wouldn't be so many people who are discussing this with one another in net messages. Many people are offended.
I'm sorry that you don't see it, but that is your problem, not mine.
The way this entire subject has been handled is not educational, it is fodder for denial. Wake up!
Everyone in this page agrees it did happen. Me most certainley! I have a problem with those that were offended by what? The precise wording of the questions. One was soo offended that she left this thread, then came back to protest more!
You can't have a discussion if you are subject to the PC police. What? There are things that you can't ask in America? Yep! That is true!
I say Bullschyt!
Those of us who have worn the uniform, and been the ones out there all around the world were not there to be diplomats! That is left to the civilians ELECTED to handle. If an administration changes while you are in oath, you can't just quit!
Americans have a long and ardous system of poloticing, and politicos say some damaging things to gain power. Americans in uniform overseas have only ONE duty. That duty remains the same if you are in a combat zone or just stationed in a country where it is srategically advantatious. The only thing that keeps our system working is the presence of US oathed defenders of our elected government.
You would EXPECT that young marines, sailors, soldiers doing thier duties would be OFFENDED at all those politicos constantly talking about what they are doing is in VAIN! Much of this is perertrated by the mainstream media that is broadcast to thier advisaries we sent them to control. The only thing you hear from uniformed Americans is why? Why don't they ever report all the good we've done?
Because of the PC police.
Because of the brave people that served in WWII, not only were the rest of the Jewish saved, but the Germans and Japenese were helped into free and great nations.
Today, a JEW HATING, Isreal denier, was made to look as though a peacemaker. This bastard is sending the weapons to IRAQ and Afghanistan to kill our personelle. But as long as she,(Iwon't say the name of this good morning america host on ABC), tries to make IRAN and it's ways look beatifull, and ignores thier vindictivness, the President of Iran is a wonderful person, and the US is wrong! She even DEFENDED the way women are not citizens there but they all like it that way. The pres would not shake her hand as it is AGAINST THE LAW! Good GOD! you can make anything look good in the mainstream media! These fools are not progressive! They are regressive and she likes it and wants ya'll to LOVE it!
Shouldn't our uniformed people be OFENDED? NO!
This kind of stuff is why they do what they do! They keep ya'll fat, dumb, and happy! And while the politicals fight amoungst each other, Hillary will have to run things in two years from now. I'm sure Hillary is our next PRESIDENT.
I want our next president to have freedom to lead and be Commander in cheif! The vicious fight for presidency is not helping us read U.S. But YOU can be offended by certain questions? The way they are worded?
Maybe you are offended by ME? And I'm on your side here. Those people are serving us and could be offended, but someone posed a QUESTION in a way YOU didn't like! Enjoy the freedom you have and look for offence in what people ask, THE uniforms gave your assured right to that, but I'll tell you you should just argue or discuss it with us and stop trying to be HITLER as tho some things are not permitted here and others that are offensive to some are!
ARE you FAT? DUMB? HAPPY? If none of the above, what are you?
This is the 5th time I am attempting to post in this thread in this spot...all 4 other times, before I could submit the post, it was erased. Hopefully 5th time is a charm.
First of all Trudy, I want to thank you for what I believe is the best, most personal, down-to-earth post on this thread. 
I really appreciate you sharing your families story with us. 
It is stories like Trudy's why I am proud of this thread.
Melting Pot has had explosive subjects before, and I have been proud of the members here how we could debate a subject intelligently, each expressing our own views calmly and articulately. Whe have had threads about abortion, religion, slavery, Saddam's hanging...in this thread though, we seemed to have dropped the ball. I take the blame in 2 ways. One, I expected the group to debate a subject like it had in the past, in an intelligent, articulate manner. Two, I underestimated my own debating skills. I played devil's advocate like I had so many times in the past, because I learned when researching this topic before starting it, that it was against the law in many countries to deny the Holocaust. Because of that law, I thought it only fair that I take the position of denying the Holocaust, and expected group members here to prove me wrong. That did not happen. Condemning a question, and emotionally declaring it happened without intelligently debating the issue was only winning me the debate. I saw this and decided a change of course in this thread needed to happen or hate mongers could use this thread to their favor, which I did not want happen. When I started this thread, I really expected members here to step up to the debate. The world cannot afford for me to win the debate in this thread, so that is why I am changing direction in it.
Rusty is here now putting in his 2 cents saying 
to everyone.
I saw on the news the leader of Iraq declare the Holocaust never happened, which is where I got the title for the thread. There are more noteable Holocaust deniers than I thought before researching this tipic:
- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
- Enrique Aynat
- Arthur R. Butz
- Wendy Campbell
- David Cole
- François Duprat
- Robert Faurisson
- Bobby Fischer
- Roger Garaudy
- Hutton Gibson
- Matt Giwer
- Jürgen Graf
- Nick Griffin
- Richard E. Harwood
- Michael Hoffman II
- David Irving
- James Keegstra
- Fred A. Leuchter
- Jüri Lina
- Norman Lowell
- Walter Lüftl
- Tiit Madisson
- Carlo Mattogno
- Hassan Nasrallah
- Carl O. Nordling
- Roeland Raes
- Paul Rassinier
- Mohammed Mahdi Akef
- Ahmed Rami
- Germar Rudolf
- Fredrick Töben
- Richard Williamson
- Mark Weber
- Ernst Zündel
I heard Sunday, on a news show, a presidential candidate in the U.S. declare that we are in WWIII.
In another group in care2, they are discussing a law in England where it is illegal for Muslim women to wear their traditional head garments. Why? Are Amish women next? Are we going to forbid them to wear bonnets? Does any of this sound familiar? Have we learned nothing from history? Are some people just not seeing what is going on today?
I am not ashamed of starting this thread, but I am disappointed in some members by how they have responded. Hate is not a cure for hate.
What is the difference between "ethnic cleansing" and "holocaust"?
http://www.answers.com/topic/genocide
Stages of genocide
- Classification
- People are divided into "us and them".
- Symbolization
- "When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups..."
- Dehumanization
- "Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder."
- Organization
- "Genocide is always organized... Special army units or militias are often trained and armed..."
- Polarization
- "Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda..."
- Identification
- "Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity..."
- Extermination
- "It is "extermination" to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human."
You have engaged me!
Sorry, but I feel you have done a poor job of standing your position here. I recall the original name of this thread. Your first comments are still there! You were HITLER'ED into backing up! The PC police killed your thunder! Backing down to this ILK will make you not only weak, but have to act dumb to please them!
like I mentioned earlier.
It surprised me, because for me, it is much easier to debate that the Holocaust really happened.
There are points I made earlier that have still yet to be refuted.
I did not change course because of PC police, and I was not Hitlered into changing course. I changed course because I saw I was winning the debate. Just yelling "Yes, it did happened" does not prove it happened. And I did not want to win the debate for fear of feeding hate. That simple.
History is what is written. What happens today is Cause and Effect. We are affected by what has happened. The reason so much of what is happening today is caused from yesterdays. Yet, so many people are still feeding into ethnic cleansing through prejudice and hate. I see people screaming that the Holocaust happened, but what about the holocausts that happening today? Who is screaming for those people?
We can do something about holocausts. Question is, do we choose to? Or are we going to be like the villagers that my father-in-law paraded to the concentration camp to show them that was going on so close to them?
We have people put in concentration camps now that we call prisons. There are Muslims who have been arrested simply for being Muslim. No charges against them. No court. But there is torture and deaths.
How many Americans ignore what is going on in Abu Ghraib prison?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/16/iraq.abuse.main/index.html
In 60 years, will people be scolding others for questioning if the Holocaust of WWIII happened?
Ok Tuesdays. Belittle it down to PC policing if you must...if that is the only way you can handle the 'Shoah'.
What those more eloquent than I were trying to convey was that emotion plays a part. My step-daughter was murdered in the London Bombing. If someone were to hold up the question as to whether she was mudered and present a debate on it as entertainment, I would get offended. It is an offensive subject to debate. At the 'Shoah' (or Holocaust) an attempt was made to murder an entire race of people. There are many today throughout the world who lost their family, their parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents and so forth during those awful years. I am not that 'PC' but I will not stand by and see the question raised as to whether it happened at all, without sticking up for the truth. We love to reduce facts of history down to factoids, small sound bites for a TV besotted age. In doing so we belittle these harsh realities and make them more palettable and easier to deny.
All I have asked for is respect for the dead. Respect my dead and respect other's dead. Debate by all means. But not offensively please. Show respect. Constantly asking for definitions when we all know them is not leading a debate. It is trying to hold people up for ridicle. I glad you find memers of our murdered families so funny. Excuse me if I do not laugh.
You ask me to respect the host. By all means. But respect is a two way street.
And I did not use the Jewish word. It is not the same. Everyone has a different definition of what a holocaust is, as you just explained what yours was...you seem to think of "Shoa" and "Holocaust" as the same.
It is not the same for everyone. We are individuals. Please respect that.
This is the Melting Pot...not the Jewish forum. We have many diverse people here who see holocaust in a different definition, as there are several definitions as I listed above. Also, the Jewish holocaust was not the only holocaust, as again, I have illustrated.
David, you ask for respect for people who have been touched by the Jewish holocaust. That is fair. It is also fair then to ask everyone to respect everyone who has been touched by EVERY holocaust. The Jewish Holocaust was not the only one.
That is why I asked in the beginning for a definition of holocaust.
I sincerely thank Tuesday for standing up for me.
We have many threads in this group. Not every thread is for every person. If you feel insulted by the subject matter of this thread, I kindly suggest you partake in a different discussion then.
It seems to me from reading many of these posts, there are some people who are just reacting, and not "listening".
I suggest that people go back and open mindedly read each post starting at the beginning of the thread. You may learn something new.
THERE YOU GO AGAIN! What about abu ghrab or however you spell it?? What BUSH HOLOCAUST????? Or a few dum ass soldiers bieng STUPID? Come on now, We are all one race and even American soldiers do stuppid-ass stuff! But the whole US was made to look like these idiots forever on TV and you don't even realize it was closed down. You say it is still going on there! Why? that is what YOU want to believe!
David, If I laughed at the dead, I wouldn't back down from it. Where on this earth did you decide I thought it was funny???? That never happened either!
That crazy PC police captain from good morning america was on with that holocaust denier again this morning. She asked him about the holocaust again and he denied it! She, of course, turned it into a fluuffy story about how he is a simple PEACE lover. Your morale of the story....BUSHH KILLING EGOMANIAC REPUBLICAN DEVIL!!!! THIS CREEP GOOD!
GABBY, You think you didn't change course, but you did indeed. You used that word. HATE. The PC'ers use that word to describe anyone who say or even asks a question they don't like, and can't defend.
Several years ago, not 80 miles from here, a couple white prison thugs dragged a black crack dealer from the back of a pick-up truck. On this very same day a white mother of three little children was raped and killed by a black crackhead in the city of Houston as she was jogging.
The Raper-Murderer even said that the woman told him she forgave him before he killed her. The husband knew she said this because as he said this was HER!
Why was one story covered over, and over, and over to ad nauseum by the national news, and the other ignored?
By the time the first story sort of ended months later, the dragged man was a simple hero. Quannel X, the national spoksman for the new black panther party, (who I know personally, and have much respect for), took armed party members there, as some of the remaining KKK idiots were "supossed" to be there also.
By this time the second story was on page four or seven or wherever they could squeese in a few words in the HOUSTON CHRONICAL.
AGAIN, I ask you why. WHY? Just think!
One story had what the PC SS in this country can be what they call HATE if they solder and mold it to perfection. The OTHER story is one that happens more often and it is something that conflicts with PC and we shouldn't talk about it for fear of being called a HATER by the SS.
One other thing here. Both happened in TEXAS on the very same day. The family members who couldn't have given a damn about the first victum when he was alive, were brought out crying to the cameras to proclaim our Governer racist because he wouldn't support HATE CRIME legislation. It didn't matter that the legislature here did't support it either.
Hummm! what was all this about? Could it have been that our Governer was about to run for president? Yep, GW!
HATERS talk hate. They won't even allow you to ask a question. Hitler's SS started this way!
This is still the United States of America. Only until the haters of it and our freedom to ask and say what we want are finally lost to the PC SS.
Gabby, you haven't just givin in to the SS. I believe you are one of them. Forgive me, my friend, but it is what I think. If you are going to paste over everything you posed here bowing to the SS, you can NEVER extract real thoughts from the other side! I was trying to argue AGAINST you here till you mushhed up and became what? Now people are attacking me with nonsence. I can't even be on the same side if I don't follow the PC crap.
Okay, let's get this thing going then. I'm here. I'd sooner be talking about the idiotic global warming farce, but this will do for now.
Alright, Tuesday - I am not a member of the PC police, nor have I eve been. This is not a question of the troops who have defended my right to free speech. This is about holocaust.And Galadriel, no one said this was the Jewish show.
Everyone knew there were other holocausts way before you posted here. You think we need to be educated? No one knows this without your instruction?
I am Jewish, Tuesday, and for you to compare me to Hitler and then discuss my behavior as SS'ing Galadriel into backing up shows what a truly ridiculous person you are. You also accused me of being a hatemonger - not directly, but you did.
So Tuesday - what are you so angry about in life that you feel the need to compare Jewish people to Hitler and the SS. You couldn't possibly be more insulting. But you, yourself are verging on hatemongering.
Only an idiot would have spoken as that woman did on the morning show you were referring to, but whatever, you need to get a handle on the source of your anger before you start verbalizing in a way that backs you into the proverbial corner.
I believe very strongly in free speech, always have, but it comes with the responsibility of compassion, and Galadriel demonstrated zilch in the way she couched her original question, and in the way she has continued to speak throughout this thread.
And BTW Galadriel, it is considered to be very bad form to post private net messages. You pursued me privately. As a host, you should know better than to post anyone's net messages. Not that I said anything in there that I wouldn't want anyone to see. I'm not sure if it violates the TOS or COC, but it is a really screwed up thing to do.
And Tuesday, I don't care if you were in the military or not. It's immaterial to this discussion, but if you were in Iraq, we had no business going there anyway.
Tuesday, I admitted I changed course on this thread, and I also believe I explained why.
Elizabeth, I posted your message so I would not misquote you because of what you posted and accused me of...you came on this thread attacking me. And if this thread is against the CoC, I am sure you have already reported it to care2 as you claim this has been around the message boards, and I know I did not publicize this thread. Also, personally attacking other members here, is against the CoC, and I kindly ask that you show more respect and debate the issue, not attack the poster.
Tuesday, when did they close Abu Ghairab down? Because there are people still imprisoned there. I read a story of a 6 year old boy writing a letter to the English Prime Minister to please let his dad out, who had been in there for 4 years now, with no charges against him. If it is closed down, why aren't the prisoners back home with their families?
And why are there laws in England now that forbid Muslim women to wear their head garments?
(Tuesday, as you requested...please debate the issue and don't call members "names") Going back to WWII...more Russians were killed than Jews (the numbers are above in a previous post), so why don't we call it the Russian holocaust?
Hitler didn't drink, he didn't cheat on his girlfriend, he didn't smoke. He even wrote a book of what he intended to do, and how he intended to do it before WWII. He served his country during WWI as First Leutenant. He saw his country basically destroyed by having to pay war damages of WWI...a war that started because a Serb assassinated an Arch Duke. There have been many monarch assassinations that went unnoticed. What made this assassination so different as to start a WW, and transform a seemingly very moral man into what many people accuse to be evil?
And...playing devil's advocate here since Tuesday wants to debate, and I am already being persecuted just for having this thread...if the Jewish people were targetted for "extinction" during WWII, how did they get their own country out of it (Israel), which was taken away from from the Palistinians (sp?), which many people believe are being holocausted today?
And if you use the argument that the Jews had Israel thousands of years ago, then why don't we give America back to the American Indians? America belonged to them thousands of years ago. How would you feel if the United Nations came and said this was no longer your home...This land now belongs to the Indians? And weren't the American Indians holocausted?
Again, what is the difference between a holocaust and ethnic cleansing?
OK, Tuesday, you got your wish...lets see what you do with it.
As A UK resident I was unaware of any law in terms of statute or case within British jurisprudence that relates to the forbidding of Muslin Women from wearing head covering. We have had some somewhat stupid remarks by the ex-foriegn Secretary Jack Straw saying he would rather they were not worn in his presence. But we learnt to ignor him anyway. Then a High Court Judge has recently said that in cases where either vissual identification or deaf lip reading is important that they should not be worn.
There was also the case of a primary school teacher who was teaching pre-pubesent children where the verbal clues would have been reinforced by lip clues. It was felt that it was a requirement of her job to take off her full face covering in the presence of those children.
Sorry please continue, just wanted to put in that little correction.
I got the information about the head garments from the group Prepare to Unlock Reality (UR). The thread is Muslim 'fashion police' at http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5902&pst=650487
David, thanks for correcting me...it was found offensive in England, while in France it was outlawed. I just went back and reread it. Again, I apologize, and thanks for the correction.
Isn't that how the Jewish holocaust started though? Please correct me if I am wrong. Weren't Jewish men ridiculed for wearing their "hats" (sorry, I forgot the name for the hats they wore)?
for expressing so elloquently the reason I started this thread. Pain is pain. Suffering is suffering.
This discussion is going on at the The Progressive Winkin' Cougar group on care2 at http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=11083&pst=664517
Like I said before, I played devil's advocate here because of this law in many countries.
As someone said earlier, there is no law enacted so far, but living in the UK, I get to hear some of the interviews with the girls in question. I do listen to their reasons, but also listen to their voices, in which I hear hysteria.
I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that their menfolk or strangers in the street make life very unpleasant for them if they don't wear the veil. Any group of men unable to control themselves at the sight of a woman's hair suggests to me, people without any sense of personal responsibility. They also want shariyya law, administered by religious bigots, and one gent actually told a minister of the crown to get off the platform because he didn't belong in this country - in the Muslim state he advocated presumably. The minister, a Scot and born a British national had just us much right to speak as any other person.
It was suggested in England.
There are several religions that believe a woman's hair should not be shown...Amish is one of them. Women wear bonnets. Do we outlaw those next?
Reading 1 Corinthians 11: 2-16 has some real gems. "....ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels." "...but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head-" ( a kind of first century bad hair day I suppose) Seriously when I was training we were told that is was a disgrace for a woman to attend church without a hat. Now they only come out for weddings and baptisms.
But I fear gentle host we digress...
And thanks for steering us back on course. We did digress.
I stated above the stages of ethnic cleansing.
According to http://www.markville.ss.yrdsb.edu.on.ca/history/history/can_holocaust1.html
there were five Stages of Isolation that occurred during the Jewish Holocaust of WWII that look very familiar to what is happening today...at least to me:
- Stripping of Rightso nuremberg laws
- segregationo ghettos
- Concentrationo labour camps
- Final Solutiono extermination
- aftermatho displacement
It is the FRENCH who outlawed BURKAS and that such...
I can compare a jewish person to the SS because it is my right as an American. When people are offended by a question posed here, and feel they can shut 'em down by that offence, then it could be concidered to some, and others AFRAID to agree, as being HITLER'D! I said I was on your side, but when you use being OFFENDED by a question or an attitude, you are giving up on debate. Free comparing of ideas or scenerios is being killed then, by political correctness.
When that basketball player, Tim Hardaway), the other day was asked how he feels about gay players on his team, he said what he felt. Every PC soldier in the world wanted him JAILED! I don't agree with what he said or the way he said it. But he is an American and can feel what he wants! AND those that think he has no right to feel or say what he did, are PC police who want to be SS and lock people away for thier thoughts and words. Many people think or feel things they won't say out of fear. But it is our right to think or say it.
Gabby, I was under the ussumtion that that prison was closed down, but I understand that the US moved any of thier prisioners out of it, and that the IRAQI's are still using it! It was closed down as far as the US is concerned! Many things in Iraq are being handed over to the Iraqi government as they are able to take more and more control. That is progress that is never reported, of course.
Gabby, you're doing good here even if I said you are straddling both sides and caving in. I like to stoke the fires ya' know. But you, I know, don't take things personally, and never know exactley what side I'm on. Welcome to the club where folks on both sides are mad at ya!
ALWAYS ya TUESDAY!!!
"I am Jewish, Tuesday, and for you to compare me to Hitler and then discuss my behavior as SS'ing Galadriel into backing up shows what a truly ridiculous person you are. You also accused me of being a hatemonger - not directly, but you did."
Well Lizz it does not matter what side you are on, or who you are, it therefore means that I am a truly ridiculous person in YOUR eyes.
"So Tuesday - what are you so angry about in life that you feel the need to compare Jewish people to Hitler and the SS. You couldn't possibly be more insulting. But you, yourself are verging on hatemongering."
I'm not at all angry as you seem to be Lizz. But because I voiced an oppinion about YOUR TACTICS, I am insulting and a hatemongerer even tho I am on your side! That is what I call SS. I wasn't at all talking about jewish people, maybe just Lizz. If it seems that I insulted you, then you must live with that. Where does the hate come from me? I see what looks like hate come from you.
"And Tuesday, I don't care if you were in the military or not. It's immaterial to this discussion, but if you were in Iraq, we had no business going there anyway"
Well it was materiel to the point I was making. Just like you repeating over and over that you are jewish HAD to be materiel. Ya can't have it one way for you and another way for others if you really want to discuss. If you don't, then find another thread where ALL agree and you will not be OFFENDED by so many things!
I told ya'll before, folks want to shut people up with the word HATE. That is thier key word and being offended about just anything you aren't ALLOWED to think or feel. Maybe I could be offended by some of the things being said about me, but I am not. I am not angry about it either because I know better.
Lizz, I do feel sorry about not using your whole name, it's just that my contacts get schechy at night and I can't read the real spelling. Is it Elisabeth? That is why I call Galadriel, Gabby. I realized her true name awhile later, but she let's me get away with GABBY now for old time's sake I guess, or she wants to argue about more important things.
ANYWAYZZZ, we can all have opinions here and strongley dissagree, but become friends in the process, or not be friends. We learn much from one another though, and become better and better talking with people of all sides.
No 
other members. No 
other members. Please.
We can discuss a thread without personal attacks.
Tuesday, I played devil's advocate like you requested, waiting for an intelligent discussion, and it seems to be wasted on personal attacks on another member. I am disappointed.
Please, go back and reread the thread so you can debate my devil's advocate like you said you wanted to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
Abu Ghraib is now in the process of officially closing as of March 9, 2006.
It does not say that Abu Ghraib is actually closed...just that it is in the process of officially closing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes
Civil war 1998-2002, est. 4 million deaths; war "sucked in" Rwanda, Uganda, Angola, Zimbabwe and Namibia, as well as 17,000 United Nations peacekeepers, its "largest and most costly" peace mission and "the bloodiest conflict since the end of the Second World War." Fighting involves Mai-Mai militia and Congolese government soldiers. The Government originally armed the Mai-Mai as civil defence against external invaders, who then turned to banditry. 100,000 refugees living in remote disease ridden areas to avoid both sides Estimated 1000 deaths a day according to Oxfam: "The army attacks the local population as it passes through, often raping and pillaging like the militias. Those who resist are branded Mai-mai supporters and face detention or death. The Mai-mai accuse the villagers of collaborating with the army, they return to the villages at night and extract revenge. Sometimes they march the villagers into the bush to work as human mules."
I read your link
I find it really interesting that he was a French resistance fighter, and he was in German concentration camps during WWII.
I was wanting the History channel while folding a load of black clothes, and they had a program talking about Sodom & Gomorrah. Wasn't Sodom & Gomorrah a holocaust?
Hi Ruth,
Were the women you heard from educated so-called higher class women or were they so-called middle or lower-class women?
Would you mind please explaining?
There is a link to a discussion on headdresses. In that link, there are 2 links to videos that may answer your question. I thought there were very educational videos explaining Muslim women's headdress.
I believe that it is fair to say that, at least in the United States, most people associate the word "Holocaust" with Jewish deaths at the hands of Germans in World War Two. Most of these people in the United States who know about -- or think they know about -- the Holocaust have no idea that Jews comprised only a small fraction of the non-combatants who were killed at the direction of their own political leaders in various nation-states.
This ignorance in the United States is rather easy to explain: Zionists (at the time a radical minority of Jews) used stories of the Holocaust to further their own aims, while there was almost nobody trying to tell the stories of all the other deaths.
Growing up safely in the American heartland, I had no reason to take a great interest in World War Two or the Holocaust. As an adult, however, I was trained in the univeristy to evaluate historical evidence. Since then, I have noticed that specific details that I have picked up about World War Two and the Holocaust seem not to be consistent with the extreme Zionist Holocaust story that the American public seems to have accepted. Although the results of research would be gruesome, it would be like a breath of fresh air if people sincerely interested in what happened in Germany in World War Two could pursue their interests without the threat of being labeled a "Holocaust denier" constantly over their heads.
If you are afraid to post it do to public outfall, please send the information to me, and I will post it, so I will take the "heat".
I would love to know what the discrepencies are.
I am American, and I do not think immediately of WWII when I think of holocaust. Personally, I have no idea what "most Americans" think...but I am hoping this thread will give me an idea of what many people in this group think about holocausts.
I understand we are mostly discussing Holocausts in this thread,but since I noticed Ruth's comment on headresses,I wondered if the women being pursued because of their headresses(freedom to wear or not to wear.) were of wealth and more education, or other classes of less wealth. From some articles I've read(at least here in U.S.A.),young women wear their headresses of their own free will and decision as some people will not judge them by their physical attributes but more by their personality and intelligence. Are the females mostly outspoken well-educated females who domineering men don't like because the women are intelligent, have minds of their own,and possibly the confidence scares insecure men? Or is it all classes, less educated women who might be hesitant to speak up and who get mistreated about their headresses.? What brought up that kind of law in UK?
Sorry Lizz if you don't like my nickname for you, honestley. I wear contactts and only get on here with dirty from the day sckechey eyewear. I have a problem with the little letters on your name. I did the same to Galadriel and just called her Gabby.
If what I said to Lizz looked personal, then I submit an apology directly to LIZZ! PLEASE accept it Lizz because it is from my heart! I was saying that jewish people shouldn't be offended because I was only attackin your tacticts, your use of the PC elimination of other's views as though just because YOU youself feel something doesn,t mean ALL JEWISH folks feel it also!
Gabby, is that okay?
Back to the original thread topic okay!
Scandinavians, Europeans, and Asians in the Americas.
Japenese in Mongolia.
Japenese in the Pacific Islands.
Iddie Amin in Uganda
Castro in Cuba
SERBS in Croatia
Soviet Union in Checkeslovakia, Latvia, and Turkmienistan.
Lennin, Stalin. and Kruschev, in Russia and the Soviet bloc.
Poppa and Baby Doc in Hattie.
Kahmere Roughe in Phenom Phen.
Saddam Hussien in the Kurdish territory.
I could go on and on and ON! These were all holocaust situations!
This is where you must understand something here. You want all of these brutal murdering of people equated with what is commenly referred to as the Holocaust. I understand, brutal murdering of people by anyone in charge is sick. but let me explain why I think the word HOLOCAUST is reserved for this one event.
Before WWII, Hitler and his cohorts needed a reason to protect the people. They were on the defeated side in WWI. The people were feeling bad. They used the JEWS as thier stepping stone to power. They systematically went out and raised hell in the streets untill the Nazi jew hater Hitler became Chancelor of Germany. Thier froth went forth to the point Hitler and the NAZI machine took complete control and he proclaimed himself Fhurer. His stupid arduent followers had to be appeased and so the biggest GREATEST assembly line killing of humans was one of the best run operations the world will hopfully never know again. Henry Ford 18 years before introduced the world to assembly line production, and these people did this with efficiancy! It was a buisness that supported the war on the world. They not only confiscated all the jewish belongings, they took the gold from thier teeth and used some of thier skins to make lampshades. As time went on and more and more were being killed, they were including everyone that they wanted. Homosexuals. mentally retarded etc. Non Arians, enemies and those that were proclaimed to dissagree. Extreme political correctnes was in effect! All it took for some poor bastard to be gone forever was some vindictive person to denounce them and then the SS picked em up and if you were the wife, father, or friend of that person you better not even ask what happenned to them!
The same thing happened durring the reign of terror in France.
Both situations were where PC went crazy and people were dead because others said they didn't agree with what was supposed to be by order of some stupid political correctness.
I love to take the side against folks who proclaim offence at words and thoughts of others BECAUSE of what happens when you let the PC crap go too far. It's okay to them to talk hate and schyt to those that AREN'T PC! But they use accepted PC tactict to cry hate at you for even posing a legitimate question!
UH UHH! I'm a US vet and I want anyone to say or feel what they want and that is the only truth! Sqrew anyone that don't want that freedom, and I DO MEAN THAT! But ya'll can have your own oppinions for sure! We fight for your right to that and we must! When I say we, I don't mean Me and my fellow vets and service people on duty now. I mean WE! That is you and you Lizz and all those here. I'll tell you something a soldier thinks. All our soldiers and marines or whatever feels more connected to you than you do to them. Why is it? They are there doing what thier oath said and wanting to be here. They see the good that is being done, but are offended by folks poloticing here trying to make them look like stupid failures in a no win situation and in vain. This helps our enemies and thier supporters.
WHATEVER!
Life is cause and effect. Now, I believe people are individuals, and should not be judged as a group, but not everyone thinks like I do.
After WWI, German money was useless. So people had no money to buy food, clothes, etc. Yet, many Jewish people in Germany received stuff from family & friends outside of Germany. There was a kind of "Jewish network". Now, I am not saying that all Jews had this network. Nor am I saying that this deserved punishment...I am just giving facts here...
Some of these Jews in Germany were shop owners, and charged quite a bit for their merchandise.
When some non-Jewish Germans saw what they concidered many Jews going around well fed in expensive clothes, there was resentment.
How many people do you know today, when are without, who resent people who have? It is not an uncommon feeling. Yet, this was, in general, an entire country going through this...an entire country, except for some Jewish people who seemed to some non-Jewish Germans to be very selfish and greedy.
There are verses in the King James Bible that talk about this:
http://www.crivoice.org/biblestudy/bbproverbs7.html
The Greedy: Proverbs 27:20; 28:25; 23:6-8; 11:24-15
These verses on greedy persons emphasize two characteristics: the insatiable desires of the greedy and their stingy, mean-spirited attitude. Proverbs 27:20 compares the human hunger for more with the inevitableness of death. Abaddon and Sheol were both names for the place of the dead in the Old Testament (see Sheol, Hell, and the Dead). To say that Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied is to say that death is inevitable. As death always seeks another person, so human eyes are always searching for some other world to conquer or some other object to possess. The chief characteristic of a greedy person is that insatiable desire to have more.
Proverbs 28:25 reveals the crucial issue by contrasting the greedy person with one who trusts in the Lord. The insatiable desire for more is an expression of insecurity. The drive to take care of oneself leads to violent disregard for the rights and needs of others. But the ability to trust in God allows a person to relax and wait for God to provide his or her security. Because of the materialism of our age greed has almost become a cultural virtue. However, our feelings of insecurity even with all that we have is a penetrating indicator of our lack of trust in God.
Proverbs 23:6-8 turn to the stinginess of greedy people. These verses portray a person attending a dinner party of a tightwad. Though on the outside all looks delightful and abundant, the heart of the miser is constricted. Through clenched teeth he invites the guest to eat and drink. Aitken (p. 127) compares this greedy host to a "child watching how big a bite you can take of his chocolate bar." Such stinginess poisons the meal and once the guests realize the truth of their host’s reluctant hospitality they will be sick. They will vomit with disgust at the way they had pleasantly conversed with him.
Proverbs 11:24-25 then gives an important application. The more generously one gives the richer he or she becomes. The more tightly one holds onto what he or she has the more it runs through his or her fingers.
This principle of generosity is echoed in the New Testament. In 2 Corinthians 9:6 Paul instructs us, "The one who sows sparingly will reap sparingly, and the one who sows for blessing will reap for a blessing." Jesus stated in striking terms in Luke 6:38, "Give and it shall be given to you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over it will be put in your lap. For with the measure you see to measure, it will be measured back to you." A tight-fisted, stingy Christian is really a contradiction in terms. God has been so generous with us that generosity toward others is the natural response of the grateful heart.
One of the New Testament words translated "forgive" literally means to be gracious. It is the word used in Ephesians 4:32, "Be kind, tender-hearted toward one another, being gracious as God has been gracious to you." God has been good to us so we can be good to others. Stinginess is not worth the cost of what it does to one’s own soul. Greed ultimately produces its own punishment.
That is why we can't allow PC to take over here! It can get sick and everyone is afraid to to stand up for poor folks that may not meet the standards!
Who here thinks it's STill okay to celebrate CHRISTMAS? Merry Christmas is being eliminated by PC. Happy Holidays will soon be changed to the dates of some other religious fastley accepeted PC religion.
I don't mind change. It happens. But the villification of average americans, and the PC police make them afraid to even speak thier minds. How far are we away from that nasty systyem where the whole world will have to come against us to correct this?
I think not far! The PC police keep us from defending ourselves because we are conciderd the worst people on earth by them. All the while, the rest of the world can only wish they were Americans and have our lifstyles.
Are you sorry for The fact that we have the best and freeist societey ever on earth?
This whole world is made up of people who just want power. They'll kill polotic and do things they know better just for power over others.
This system in the US is the best the world has ever had to offer, and we do need to use or threaten our extreme power over others to protect it.
If some looser were to bust into your place of resisednce, what would you do? I don't own a gun because if that happened to me the perpertrators wouldn't give me the chance to go get it. The police would only come after me dialling 911, if they let me live.
But as a people, we in the US have to stop those that want to kill Americans together. If we fight about it, soon the PC will take over and those that think different from what is PC are going to be persecuted!
Yes,we all have rights to wear whatever we want to work,school,the mall,beach,grocerystores,funerals,wedding celebrations birthday parties,and whatever. Now,if there were a WW3,(and I hope there never will be,)but just for example, and United States soldiers were instructed to wear their steel helmets, I guess a HIJAB would protect their heads enough from a bullet(s) would it now? There are times when compromising is good and respectful. But since I am of Japanese descent,and I am proud of being of Japanese descent, Iam going to be wear my slick,waxed up Japanese hairstyle with the long silver wisteria-flower hairpins,red cloth in the hairbun,and wooden combs, to any meetings I wish,because it is my RIGHT,MY GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to wear any headress I feel like wearing.I hope you know Iam being "sarcastic." here about wearing my samurai-era-hairstyle. We all have many cultural festivities,parades,and other events to wear whatever cultural clothing we want at the appropriate festivities. Why not give respect to the UK Government at that one meeting? Wear your HIJAB anywhere else,but why not give respect to the government sometimes too?
It seems we have gone off course here.
I am going to create a new thread to discuss political correctness...
and I will start a new thread about head garments.
As for what is in a movie...many movies are dramatizations and meant to entertain.
it is being continued at Let's Talk holocaust (II) @
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=671&pst=791820&archival=