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Mar 14, 2008

peacemaker1.jpgA death is not less of a death because the person was extreme or a soldier or settler or a militant.[…]Hamas is seen as extreme but in some eyes they were elected by a fair election. They are virtually ignored in the peace process. I believe they should be listened to. Maybe after they vented long enough, perhaps they would be willing to negotiate more fairly.

Thank you Z!

On the one hand I agree with you about “A death is not less of a death because the person was extreme or a soldier or settler or a militant.”. On the other hand I personally don’t see how venting the same tirade for 60 years “Wipe Israel off the map!” is going to change within the next 60 years just because we say we listen to them. Nor do I see how venting “King David’s Israel Now!” for 60 years is going to change within the next 60 years, just because we listen to them. Hamas like Kach are legally elected, but it doesn’t mean they represent the Peoples on a grand scale. I suspect Hamas was elected in response to the corruption and mismanagement carried out by Fatah, especially under Chairman Arafat. With the death of Arafat, and the election of Mahmoud Abbas, Palestine has found a leader who is strong. Just look at how he dealt with the Violent Elements in Gaza. It may seem like he lost, however I am not so sure about that. I think it was as much a strategical move as it was a result of not being able to deal with Hamas in a rational way.

Personally I believe that ACTION, such as a stop to military aggression, aid without conditions, removal of settlements and checkpoints, expectations of responsibility and curbing of Violent Elements through policial presence will in the end bring Hamas around. I also believe that to accomplish this Israel has to step up and offer such action. Yes, initially it will cost lives, most likely on both sides, as the Extremists on both sides try to fight each other. On a unrest/violence scale of 0-150 I have no doubt that when there is finally peace, we’ll have seen a level around 75-78. But, eventually Hamas and other Extremist elements will come around because they SEE that they are given what the Palestinian People NEED, more than what they think the Palestinians need or what Plaestinian Militants have achieved during 60 years of resistance to the 1947-48 partition plan.

I know it’s just a game - but this is what I did, playing as the Israeli Prime Minister:

1. Funded education, medical aid and cross-culture projects WITHOUT conditions.
2. Gradually removed settlements and with them checkpoints and bits and pieces of the Security wall. Reminding all that it’s a process, not a one-time thing. The aim is to eventually have removed all Settlements and Checkpoints.
3. Responded to unrest and suicide bombings with Police presence in-side Israel and at the same time asking the Palestinian President to clamp down on Militants in Gaza and the Westbank.
4. Increasing the work-permits and easing the curfews, releasing prisoners convicted of non-violent crimes.
5. Responded to unrest and suicide bombings with Police presence in-side Israel and at the same time asking the Palestinian President to clamp down on Militants in Gaza and the Westbank.
6. Stimulating the Israeli Economy, focusing on Trade Initiatives between Israelis and Palestinians, Education and Social Reforms on both sides.
7. Authorizing compensation for the Refugees.
8. What I absolutely didn’t do was letting myself be drawn into calls for retaliation or respond to violence by more violence. In fact I jailed a whole bunch of Jewish/Yesha Leaders when they took to the streets and went after Palestinians. Demanding the same move by the Palestinian President on his side.

I kept repeating this until I had the full approval of the Palestinans (minus the Militants) and the Palestinian President. Then I gradually allowed Refugees to return, in 100.000 increments, making clear that any unrest as a result of this would result in their deportation. By the time I had finished the third step I had 91% of the Israeli Approval and 100% of the Palestinian People, including Hamas and the Islamic Jihad…who had both agreed to stop their aggressive actions and instead sit down and negotiate and done so - which was the fourth step - now given that I have not played at harder levels I have no idea what would happen if the level of violence was higher than it is today, but I am sure I’ll figure it out .

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Posted: Friday March 14, 2008, 10:38 am
Tags: peace israel palestine [add/edit tags]

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Carl Nielsen (7)
Wednesday March 19, 2008, 10:53 am
In the real world you (as Israeli prime minister) would likely have been assassinated by some Israelis or at least you would have lost the majority in the Knesset. In the game, how did the state of Israel survive having the Jews as a minority ?
I guess the game is created as political propeganda rather than serious simultion, is there some official statement by the creators on this ?

Past Member (0)
Wednesday March 19, 2008, 12:03 pm
Carl,

The Game presupposes a Two-State Solution. And yes, I did lose the majority in Knesset, however the measures I took - mostly increasing Police INSIDE Israel cooled down feelings a lot. The aim of the game is to simulate the major difficulties on both sides, to create understanding.

There is a link - use it and see for yourself. Your assumption of a One-State solution tells me a lot of where your "loyalties" are, and it's not with Human Rights - at least not Israeli Human Rights. See, returning the Refugees - i.e those who are really refugees (1st generation refugees and their at that timeMINOR age children) isn't going to flood Israel with non-Jews, if it's done in intervals. Most of the so called Palestinian Refugees in the world are not Refugees from Israel Proper, but from the occupied territories and Arab States like Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt. Somehow this fact is almost always forgotten when the issue of the Refugees is brought up. If 800.000 Palestinians, left Israel, the Occupied Territories, 1948 it's fair that 800.000 return. It's all a question of where they were born, if they were born in Israel/Palestine they have a right to return, if not, they don't have the right to return:
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) defines a Palestinian refugee as a person "whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict". Further: ""Resolves that the [Palestinian] refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return [...]." It is questionable if today's Palestinians would actually live in peace with their neighbors, considering how they have treated Jews in f.i Hebron. I don't see how Israel would not remain a Jewish State, even if the number that fled were doubled.

Carl Nielsen (7)
Sunday March 23, 2008, 8:30 am
SOB,

Aren't you violating your own rules when you assign me opinions, which I have never claimed I have or argued for ?

I have NEVER asigned the name Israel to any territory outside the area internationally recognised as belonging to state of Israel in 1948.
The status of the territories originally held by Syria (Golan), Jordan (West bank) and Egypt (Gaza) I regard as yet to be determined.

Out of curiosity, could you please explain exactly what you accuse me of being - pro Isreal or pro Arab ?

Game as simulation:
In general simulating the real world in a model can have two purposes with regard to learning. In one kind of model the crators don't know what the results will be and have created the model with the purpose of gaining knowledge about the subject modelled. In the other kind of model the result is "known" (objectively or subjectively) to the creators and they created the model with the purpose of communicating the creators view of the real world to others. I suspect this is the latter form of model.

Lost the Knesset:
How could you continue the game after that ? I would expect having the majority of the parliment against you would mean you were no longer the leader of Israel - Hm "increasing Police inside Israel" - doesn't that sound somewhat fischy ? Did you suspend democracy ?

Return of refugees:
I was actually also just talking about the return of refugees to Israel proper (1948 borders). If you only accept those who actually fled the area you are corect that it wouldn't change much since I guess only about 50.000 or so of them are still alive now 60 years after the event. AFAIK the return of ALL decendents (millions) of the 800.000 who fled is one of the major demands of the arabs, so good luck getting them to give that up. If you do let 800.000 back, the how do you propose to determine which of the descendants to let back (og give a right to compensation if they elect not to) ? How could you overlook that most of the original 800.000 are dead now ?

The survival of the Jewish state:
Even if no arab refugees are allowed to return, the state of Israel is in truoble. Just look at the demographic development in the area - Arab Israeli citizens have many more children than Jewish Israeli citizens do - if the current development continues its just a matter of decades before the Jews are a minority in Israel.

I would love for this to be different but I live in the real world rather than a utopia made up of wishful thinking.

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 23, 2008, 1:54 pm
Carl,
You are correct, I assumed things without thinking. My bad, I apologize. As for the rest of you comment - let me think about it, and I'll get back to you, promise.

SoB

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