July 3rd, 2008

You: Today, I’d like to finish up what we started last week – discussing the nutritional concerns and benefits of a vegetarian diet. We finished last week on the subject of protein, from there we move on to Iron.

You: Vegetarian diets typically contain similar levels of iron to non-vegetarian diets but this has lower bioavailability than iron from meat sources, and its absorption can be inhibited by other dietary constituents.

You: Vegetarian foods rich in iron include black beans, cashews, kidney beans, lentils, oatmeal, raisins, black-eyed peas, soybeans, many breakfast cereals, sunflower seeds, chickpeas, veggie burgers, tomato juice, tempeh, molasses, and whole-wheat bread. Vegan diets are usually higher in iron than vegetarian diets because dairy products are low in iron.

You: Any other 'favorite' sources of Iron?

sirhc DeSantis: kale?

Jana Kyomoon: guiness LOL

Lori Kohl: lol

Thomas Sadoul laughs

sirhc DeSantis: well yeah that too

Compulse Beck: hehe

You: Iron stores are lower in vegetarians than non-vegetarians and iron deficiency is thus more common in vegetarian and vegan women and children (adult males are rarely iron deficient), but iron deficiency anemia is rare.

Jana Kyomoon: lots and lots of greens the darker the better

You: yes, and they don't come much darker than spinach, I know.

Lori Kohl: vitamin pills with iron

Bonnie Diggs: agree lori

You: yes.

You: OK..another concern to most everybody..especially young and then older is calcium

You: Calcium intake in vegetarians is similar to non-vegetarians. Some impaired bone mineralization has been attached to Vegans who don't consume enough leafy greens, which are sources of abundant calcium. However, this is not found in vegetarians

You: of course if one is vegan and has eliminated dairy products...then you're likely also looking for other supplements.

sirhc DeSantis: not really

Bonnie Diggs: thomas ... why would vegans not consume sufficient leafy greens?

sirhc DeSantis: don't know whats in them - gelatine for example

sirhc DeSantis: because we are as lazy as anyone else

Thomas Sadoul laughs

sirhc DeSantis: no time to cook

Lori Kohl: I s gelatin bad for you?

sirhc DeSantis: its animal derived

Jana Kyomoon: it is form cow bones

You: could be.. I was just thinking that as a vegetarian, I often find myself grabbing cheese to snack on.

Lori Kohl: ewww

Lori Kohl: I didn't know that

Jana Kyomoon: it is the jelly

Jana Kyomoon: gelly . .

Jana Kyomoon: in the bones

Compulse Beck: I always thought it was made from horse hooves

sirhc DeSantis: sometimes

sirhc DeSantis: depends on what the slaughter houses are processing

Compulse Beck: ahh

Lori Kohl: Jello is made from a derivitive of cow bones?

Jana Kyomoon: it definitely used to be

Lori Kohl: it's the same gelatin?

sirhc DeSantis: it is

Jana Kyomoon: but recently they have been using a vgetarian product

sirhc DeSantis: agar agar among them

Jana Kyomoon: you have to be very careful to look @ the ingredients

Lori Kohl: ooh that's better I hope they arereally using a veggie product

Lori Kohl: goodpoint Jana

Jana Kyomoon: they put so many vitimans etc in a gelatin caplet

sirhc DeSantis: agar is - condensed seawater from what i can make out

You: hmm..that's true Jana

You: I guess somewhat related to calcium...at least from so many peoples view is vitamin D

You: Vitamin D levels do not appear to be lower in vegetarians (although studies have shown that much of the general population is deficient). Vitamin D needs can be met via the human body's own generation upon sufficient and sensible UV sun exposure.

Bonnie Diggs: From Google: Gelatin is a protein produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen extracted from the bones, connective tissues, organs, and some intestines of animals such as the domesticated cattle, and horses.

sirhc DeSantis: that can be a problem here in the north

You: Thanks Bonnie...that pretty much covers it.

You: Vitamin D, Sirhc?

sirhc DeSantis: yes

Lori Kohl: it's a protein

Lori Kohl: Thanks Bonnie

sirhc DeSantis: i try to be outside for 30 minutes a day even in dead midwinter

Thomas Sadoul smiles...I have no problem getting enough sunlight down here

Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - it is hard not to be outside 30 minutes a day! lol

Compulse Beck: I'm so pale, if I went outside at noon sharp I would cause a infernal reaction that would backfire and blow up the sun

sirhc DeSantis: its ok with plenty of snow - seems t oincrease the level

You:

You: Products including milk, soy milk and cereal grains may be fortified to provide a good source of Vitamin D and mushrooms provide over 2700 IU per serving (approx. 3 oz or 1/2 cup) of vitamin D2, if exposed to just 5 minutes of UV light after being harvested. For those who don't get adequate sun exposure and/or food sources, Vitamin D supplementation may be necessary.

Compulse Beck: But I take a good dose of vit D each week in pill form

You: I was actually surprised to learn that it could be a concern....I guess I always drank so much 'fortified' milk and was out in the sun long enough to never give it a second thought.

You: So, I know vegetarians sometimes make this choice for 'health' reasons...or that my friends thought I did for those reasons....leading to a the subject of longevity.

You: A 1999 metastudy compared six major studies from western countries. The study found that the mortality ratio was the lowest in fish eaters (0.82) followed by vegetarians (0.84) and occasional meat eaters (0.84), and was then followed by regular meat eaters (1.0) and vegan (1.0). When the study made its best estimate of mortality ratio with confounding factors considered the mortality ratio for vegetarians was found to be (0.94).

sirhc DeSantis: ah yes - are we experimenting too much

You: experimenting?

sirhc DeSantis: with our health

Jana Kyomoon: yes i agree . .now everyone is an expert

Jana Kyomoon: mainly due to the internet

You: oh, true...or just not able to keep up with everything we put into our bodies.

sirhc DeSantis: vegan was that bad?

Jana Kyomoon: every week someone is telling me some new diet or supplement

Bonnie Diggs: Thomas from what you said then we should be fish eaters?

Lori Kohl: I love fish

You: well, that was one study that is looking only at longevity.

Lori Kohl: fish oil is good for you.

sirhc DeSantis: you mean every vegan will die lol

Lori Kohl: haha!

You: If you have other reasons driving you then it might not be enough to convince you to eat fish

Thomas Sadoul laughs

Lori Kohl: should have a fish oil caplet once in a while maybewith gelatin in it lol

sirhc DeSantis: you see my point

You: In "Mortality in British vegetarians", it was concluded that "British vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population. Their death rates are similar to those of comparable non-vegetarians, suggesting that much of this benefit may be attributed to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as a low prevalence of smoking and a generally high socio-economic status, or to aspects of the diet other than the avoidance of meat and fish."

Lori Kohl: hi Saraya

sirhc DeSantis: hi saraya

Saraya Nightfire: hi, sorry for being late )) dont let me disrupt )

Thomas Sadoul smiles at Saraya ...welcome

Lori Kohl: happy you're here

Mysha Milland is Online

Saraya Nightfire: ty )

Lori Kohl: yvw

Bonnie Diggs: but thomas that study did not compare vegetarians to fish eaters - just to the general population.

Bonnie Diggs: I still say fish is good.

Lori Kohl: vegetarians came in 2nd in longevity.

You: What I got from that study was that the other factors were much more important in longevity than the diet as long as it was a nutricious diet.

Lori Kohl: vegans last

Jana Kyomoon: i think u have to go with a diet that makes u feel good .. i have been veggie 4 23 years and no problems . .most of the time vegan

sirhc DeSantis: well thats my goose cooked - as it were

Thomas Sadoul laughs

Lori Kohl: cooked goose! you? lol

sirhc DeSantis: i have done yes

Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc

Lori Kohl: lol

You: Statistical studies, such as comparing life expectancy with regional areas and local diets in Europe also have found life expectancy considerably greater in southern France, where a low meat, high plant Mediterranean diet is common, than northern France, where a diet with high meat content is more common.

Chat Range: Jovial Denimore [13m]

Jana Kyomoon: and don't forget the wine and olive oil!

You: yes

Lori Kohl: yes!

sirhc DeSantis: switched to olive oil years back

Lori Kohl: me too

You: ...I just can't figure out why they have to put bones in wine either...*shrugs*

Bonnie Diggs: so thomas you assume that "meat" includes fish?

Lori Kohl: andsometiems Canola oil

Jana Kyomoon: and fish too thomas

Bonnie Diggs: I am so partial to salmon... and veggies

Bonnie Diggs: ?

sirhc DeSantis: canola is alll gmo here

You: I still do, yes, Bonnie.

Bonnie Diggs: We have to check - because I think when they are talking about "meat" it is beef, pork, lamb and chicken.

You: And of course there are so many ways to analyze things but most all of those show that a vegetarian diet is not less healthy, and often more healthy than a non-vegetarian diet..

You: and diet choices are often made for other reasons besides nutritioin.

sirhc DeSantis: yes

Bonnie Diggs: I have not seen proof of that Thomas.

sirhc DeSantis: i've been inside slaughterhouses

You: You don't see proof that a vegetarian diet is as healthy as one without meat?

sirhc DeSantis: proof enough for me

Lori Kohl: me too

Bonnie Diggs: Meat meaning fish?

sirhc DeSantis: ever seen a facory ship?

Mysha Milland: A lot of vegetarioans are so because of ethical reasons, and any sentient being that we eat would be considered meat, a word used as a substitute and distraction from the actual once living creature

sirhc DeSantis: factory*

Lori Kohl: no what is that?

You: yes...and I know you're looking at the nutritional benefits pointed out about fish...

Lori Kohl: factory ship?

Bonnie Diggs: mysha agree with that point

sirhc DeSantis: its massive trawl nets and live processing of the catch until the hold is full

You: but we are rapicly depleting the oceans too.

Bonnie Diggs: but thomas was talking about health

Lori Kohl: I eat fish.

sirhc DeSantis: mental health too

Lori Kohl: From the study you reported on Thomas.. fish is good for you.

Bonnie Diggs: I think fish is very healthy.

Bonnie Diggs: and superior to veggies alone.

Jana Kyomoon: not when you've seen it glow in the dark

Lori Kohl: live porcessing? like cleaning teh fish on the ship?

You: Yes, it is good for you.

You: it is an easier way to get what your body does need.

Lori Kohl: glow in the dark!?

sirhc DeSantis: yes cleaning - gutting, scaling, picking out the dolphins

Saraya Nightfire: um, i wouldnt say its 'superior' to veggies alone. It really depends on the quality of the veggie diet

You: so, nutritionally, you are correct Bonnie.

Bonnie Diggs: farmed fish is out of the question ... except for some varieties

Jana Kyomoon: glow in the dark from radiation

sirhc DeSantis: well i do that

Lori Kohl: that's contaminated

Jana Kyomoon: really witnessed it in a cat dish

You: really?

Lori Kohl: poor cat

Bonnie Diggs: Jana - you eat cat? lol

Mysha Milland: Its interesting that we consider and give thought to whether any animals are healthy to eat.

Jana Kyomoon: i eat nothing that had eyes or a parent

sirhc DeSantis: my free range bantams were

Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - agree

Lori Kohl: I agree Saraya... the quality of the veggie diet deternmines if it's as good or better than veggie with fish diet

Bonnie Diggs: good life and a clean kill

sirhc DeSantis: and the geese i brought down on the estate

Jana Kyomoon: but that is only mY desicion because it works 4 me

Mysha Milland smiles

Lori Kohl: but Thomas gave info from a study... don't know which study but it said longer life

You: Ok..now on to Food Safety

Lori Kohl: get off me ass****

Close Range: kayden Zapatero [22m]

Bonnie Diggs: Thomas ... you give up then? lol

Lori Kohl: It said longer life spans belonged to ppl that ate fish.

Lori Kohl: 2nd longestwasvegetarians.

Bonnie Diggs: lori - agree

You: No, I am happy to put the discussion out there.

sirhc DeSantis: ever seen a six foot tapeworm?

Bonnie Diggs: but on to food safety

Lori Kohl: omg that's too fross tothink about

You: I still feel that yes, nutrition has to be watched and maybe somethings are easier one way but we make choices on our values.

Lori Kohl: gross*

Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - do you saute them?

Jana Kyomoon: oh please . . .

Lori Kohl: -giggles-

Thomas Sadoul laughs...not tape worms but E. coli

CallieDel Boa is Offline

sirhc DeSantis: hahaha - no it was a fish market in Japan

Bonnie Diggs: I believe it sirhc

Lori Kohl: tapeworm was in the fish

sirhc DeSantis: beautiful looking tuna - riddled with them

Lori Kohl: poor fish

You: Vegetarianism is believed to reduce E. coli infections, and proponents point to the link between E.coli contaminations in food and industrial scale meat and dairy farms. The most recent E. coli outbreak in North America has once again demonstrated this link because the source of this E. coli was traced back to "a large ranch in the Salinas Valley that has a beef cattle operation" about a half-mile from the spinach fields where spinach became contaminated.

You: enough fish already

Bonnie Diggs: let us talk tomatoes

sirhc DeSantis: yeah that was scary

Bonnie Diggs: still a problem in NY City I understand

sirhc DeSantis: what still?

You: but the Tomato scare now is not E.Coli

Bonnie Diggs: but unhealthy - very much so

Absinthe Seurat is Offline

You: yes, Salmonella (spelling) does happen quite often...too much but not only to vegetables.

You: It seems that vegetables quite often get the rap for E.Coli when they are the victim and not the culprit.

Bonnie Diggs: My stores have pulled most tomatoes off the shelves? spinach - then tomatoes - then ?

You: but the big spinach scare was E. Coli...completely different.

Lori Kohl: The news reports said our tomatoes are ok

sirhc DeSantis: we have a potential disater here with pig farm runoff

Bonnie Diggs: they are not

Lori Kohl: (I like this song that's playing)

You: There are several variants of E. coli and they can be found in a healthy human gut, but the deadly strain, O157:H7 was virtually unheard of until the 1980s. It is believed that this strain evolved in the digestive system of grain fed cattle on large industrial farms. On these farms, grain is used as cattle feed because it is nutrient-packed and increases efficiency. A side effect of feeding grain to cattle is that it increases the acidity of their stomach — and it is in this acidic gut that the deadly O157:H7 thrives.

Bonnie Diggs: they said that and then said - oh but people are still getting sick in the city - even with the smaller varieties.

You: E. Coli can be still acquired from any excrement-contaminated food or human commensal bacteria. The recent case of spinach and onions with E. Coli contamination in the U.S. shows that vegetarian foods are also susceptible to food safety concerns

sirhc DeSantis: onions?

Bonnie Diggs: maybe not E.Coli - but if you ill, what difference does it make?

Lori Kohl: what should cattle eat? vegetables instead probably.

Lori Kohl: grass

sirhc DeSantis: cattle graze

Bonnie Diggs: backspacing

Bonnie Diggs: cattle can eat dead diseased meat? right?

Bonnie Diggs: or pigs

sirhc DeSantis: you know i can't give blood because of the bse thing?

Bonnie Diggs: cattle are not just fed grain and grass

sirhc DeSantis: yeah processed sheep

sirhc DeSantis: well they were

Lori Kohl: what's the bse thing?

You: but why should the Bonnie? of course they eat what we give them...but that is not their diet...it is just to fatten them up to be processed.

Bonnie Diggs: exactly

Lori Kohl: That's terrible

sirhc DeSantis: bovine spongieform encepuilitis

Jana Kyomoon: gotta run folks . .great chatting thanks

You: In 2005, some people who had consumed branded triple-washed, pre-packaged lettuce were infected with E.Coli, and in 2007, branded lettuce salad were recalled after they were found to be contaminated by E.Coli In fact E. coli outbreaks have also involved unpasteurized apple and orange juice, milk, alfalfa sprouts, and even water.

Bonnie Diggs: and if y ou don't eat meat then there is no worry

Lori Kohl: thanks sirhc

Saraya Nightfire: bye Jana, bright blessings )

Bonnie Diggs: back to the fish thomas

sirhc DeSantis: mad cow disease

You: yes, it is quite often runoff from ranches and factory farms that is contaminating vegetables, Bonnie, so it is a concern.

sirhc DeSantis: alfalfa sprouts - i avoid

You: In 2005, some people who had consumed branded triple-washed, pre-packaged lettuce were infected with E.Coli, and in 2007, branded lettuce salad were recalled after they were found to be contaminated by E.Coli In fact E. coli outbreaks have also involved unpasteurized apple and orange juice, milk, alfalfa sprouts, and even water.

Bonnie Diggs: yes I realize that thomas

Bonnie Diggs: runoff!

Lori Kohl: I used to eatc bean sprouts but not now after hearing about ecoli in some sprouts

Lori Kohl: eat*

Saraya Nightfire: this is scarey. I never realised E.Coli infected fruit and veg so frequently

sirhc DeSantis: i sometimes grow them at home

Lori Kohl: It's good to walways wash your fruits and vegies I do

Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - I am impressed

Lori Kohl: always*

sirhc DeSantis: its easy

Lori Kohl: me too sirhc

Lori Kohl: impressed..

Lori Kohl: Idon't grow sprouts

Bonnie Diggs: lol lori

Lori Kohl: lol

Bonnie Diggs: me either

Mysha Milland: Bell peppers, apples, peaches and strawberries are the top foru veggies that hold the most pesticides

Mysha Milland: & fruit*

Lori Kohl: ooh those are so deilcious

Thomas Sadoul smiles me too..I see my neighbors spraying their gardens down with pesticides to keep the bugs off because we have SO many here, so I haven't tried a garden though I really want to.

sirhc DeSantis: bell peppers? really?

Bonnie Diggs: do you trust the organic label on the foods you buy at wegman's or whole foods?

sirhc DeSantis: its a leap of faith for sure

Bonnie Diggs: Are these vegetables safe?

Thomas Sadoul smiles...hardly! you still have to be careful..and it will cost you more.

Mysha Milland: Too relaxed on the labelling of products

Bonnie Diggs: agree sirhc - I do not believe it for a second.

sirhc DeSantis: we have a few local markets where the traders are honest

Bonnie Diggs: and if you peel the veggie (cuke) it may not matter?

You: well, they SHOULD be safe as they were to have been grown without chemicals, but I'm not confident in them.

sirhc DeSantis: no central authority t check

sirhc DeSantis: and anyway - til this year i grew my own

You: Before we run out of time again, everybody, I was wondering how many would be interested in doing this in voice some time rather than typing?

sirhc DeSantis: then all the gardens on the island to do soil checks

Mysha Milland: Buying local is great, but we do not always have that luxury

Lori Kohl: True Mysha

Bonnie Diggs: sirhc -may I come to live at your house?

Thomas Sadoul laughs

sirhc DeSantis: i'm o with voice when i get a new headset

Lori Kohl: me too sirhc

sirhc DeSantis: sure

Bonnie Diggs: thomas - just your voice!

Bonnie Diggs: no mic and not buying one. lol

You: no, I think it's great when there is more discussion but it would be easier to follow in voice.

sirhc DeSantis: we can still mix

You: ..but I know not everybody can or wants to do that.

sirhc DeSantis: never done a group discussion in voice

Lori Kohl: mix..voice and text

You: of course, we could still mix it

Saraya Nightfire: i'm not a fan of voice either Bonnie

Bonnie Diggs: i cannot type as fast as Thomas can talk?????

Mysha Milland: Id be happy to listen to others but type my response. alot fo tiems though voice gets muffled and u end up missing out on alot

sirhc DeSantis: i have that troublle too

Bonnie Diggs: true mysha

Mysha Milland: Less typos though *smiles*

Bonnie Diggs: lol mysha

sirhc DeSantis: ok but not compulsory

Lori Kohl: wellmy writer's workshop teacher uses voice to lecture but has the class use text.

You: OK...we'll stick to typing mostly and if anybody wants to voice, they're encouraged to...

Bonnie Diggs: Lori - GOOD POINT!

Bonnie Diggs: lol

sirhc DeSantis: sounds fair

Lori Kohl:

Thomas Sadoul doesn't think so.

Bonnie Diggs: Thomas .. so you lead with voice!

Bonnie Diggs: I agree

Bonnie Diggs: with you all

sirhc DeSantis: warn you - i am a 90 year old granny

Lori Kohl: lol

Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc

Thomas Sadoul laughs

Lori Kohl: no wonder you're so sexy sirhc

sirhc DeSantis: practice babe - practice

Mysha Milland: Most vegetarians do look younger than their age

You: OK..we've run over a bit so I should wind it down. Next week’s discussion will be about why people choose to be vegetarian, whether it be ethical, religious, environmental, culturalor economical pressures…or maybe there are others.

Bonnie Diggs: And fish eaters!

Lori Kohl: lol

Thomas Sadoul pokes Bonnie in the side

Bonnie Diggs: and never invites her back

You: Thanks for coming everybody...

sirhc DeSantis: no - all are welcome

Lori Kohl: health conscoius

sirhc DeSantis: we must be the most dull group in sl lol

Lori Kohl: lol

You: yes....this is to be a discussion to generate thought

Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc NO NOT with you here!

You:

sirhc DeSantis:

MikeWolf Lupindo: *looks around scared*

You: Ok..I'm officially adjouring this.

Lori Kohl: lol

sirhc DeSantis: ok next week?

You: feel free to hang around and talk..

MikeWolf Lupindo: am i late?

You: yes, same time same place..

Lori Kohl: next week

Mysha Milland: Hi Mike

Saraya Nightfire: thank you Thomas, and have a good week everyone )) Bright blessings

You: Hi Mike...I think so.

MikeWolf Lupindo: mind catching me up?

sirhc DeSantis: yes - peace

You: Thanks Saraya

Lori Kohl: Bright Blessings Saraya

Lori Kohl: This was a discussion on Vegetarian diets

You: well, I will post a transcript Mike and let you know when it's up.

MikeWolf Lupindo: ok thanks

You: ...but we're here every thursday night at 5pm SLt

Mysha Milland: Ver nice meeting everyone

Bonnie Diggs: bye everone ...

sirhc DeSantis: you too

You: Thanks for coming Mysha

MikeWolf Lupindo: have fun everyone, enjoy your week *licks*

Lori Kohl: bye Bonnie

Mysha Milland: Thank you Thomas *smiles*

Lori Kohl: Bye everyone

Close Range: MikeWolf Lupindo [23m]

You: and thankd to you Lori, Sirhc, Sandral and Bonnie

Bonnie Diggs: a lot of fun I thought

Lori Kohl: Thanks Thomas

Lori Kohl: Yeah fun! and learning a lot

You: yw

You: good!

Lori Kohl:

Bonnie Diggs: bye everyone

Lori Kohl: bye Bonnie

sirhc DeSantis: bye bonnie

You: me too..night every body

Lori Kohl: I have to stay until this song ends

Lori Kohl: lol

sirhc DeSantis: thanks thomas

Avgi Isle

  This event is scheduled for every Thursday at 5pm SLT (same as PST)