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Jul 22, 2008

Transcript from weekly Vegetarina gathering at Avgi Isle - July 17th, 2007

[2008/07/17 17:07] Thomas Sadoul: Several weeks ago, when we started this gathering, I gave the people there an opportunity to say why they had decided to live a vegetarian lifestyle…and it is a lifestyle, not merely a ‘diet’ because it can affect so many choices beyond food and the way that people look at you. Today, I’d like to start delving a bit more deeply into these reasons.

[2008/07/17 17:07] Thomas Sadoul: Many are driven to vegetarianism for ‘ethical’ reasons. In fact, in western, more industrialized countries ethics may well be the most popular reason for going vegetarian.

[2008/07/17 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: Ethics and morality are so synonymous that one word is used to define the other.

[2008/07/17 17:08] sirhc DeSantis: erm i have to disagree

[2008/07/17 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: ok

[2008/07/17 17:09] Thomas Sadoul is listening

[2008/07/17 17:09] sirhc DeSantis: morality(personal) can orerride societal ethics

[2008/07/17 17:09] sirhc DeSantis: or the other way round

[2008/07/17 17:10] Miralee Munro: I am happy to regard them as the same thing ...

[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: we have a choice

[2008/07/17 17:10] Bonnie Diggs: yes why do you disagree sirhc?

[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: you know my choice

[2008/07/17 17:10] Bonnie Diggs: very interesting?

[2008/07/17 17:10] Thomas Sadoul: I see your point Sirhc...but societal ethics and my ethics are different...

[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: because i live in the richest society ever

[2008/07/17 17:11] Miralee Munro: rich in monetary terms sirhc?

[2008/07/17 17:11] Thomas Sadoul: BUT I will agree that when I was looking at this, some of the definitions of 'ethics' did refer to groups where as that was missing from 'morality'

[2008/07/17 17:11] Miralee Munro: but not necessarily rich in spiritual terms

[2008/07/17 17:12] Thomas Sadoul: A popular phrase in US politics (and likely others) over the last few years is that morality can’t be legislated because we are all raised in different circumstances with varying influences to establish our moral values to which we go on through life further developing or perhaps undoing our morality. Society does try to establish basic moral standards but they certainly don’t cover all circumstances you’ll face in your lifetime

[2008/07/17 17:12] Bonnie Diggs: I never agree with THomas but this time I do. he has said: 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: Ethics and morality are so synonymous that one word is used to define the other.

[2008/07/17 17:12] sirhc DeSantis is Offline

[2008/07/17 17:13] Thomas Sadoul: oops...Sirhc crashed, I think..must have been the shock of you agreeing with me lol

[2008/07/17 17:13] Saraya Nightfire: lol

[2008/07/17 17:13] Cheebs Furkel: lol

[2008/07/17 17:13] Bonnie Diggs: I aree this time.

[2008/07/17 17:13] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 17:13] Thomas Sadoul: Various ethical reasons have been suggested for choosing vegetarianism. It has been argued, for example, that the production, slaughtering, and consumption of meat or animal products is unethical. Reasons for this include a belief in animal rights, an aversion to inflicting pain or harm on other beings, or a belief that the unnecessary killing of other animals is inherently wrong

[2008/07/17 17:14] Cheebs Furkel: i'm just gonna read the conversation until i feel like saying something smart lol

[2008/07/17 17:14] Thomas Sadoul: oh, that's fine Cheebs

[2008/07/17 17:14] Thomas Sadoul: One might also argue that although production and consumption of meat may be acceptable, the methods utilized in the commercial industry are unethical. Ethical vegetarianism has become more popular after the spread of factory farming.

[2008/07/17 17:15] Thomas Sadoul wonders how many people could actually see the life and death conditions of the approximately 100 million pigs, 37 million cows are raised and slaughtered in the US alone every year….or more than 20 million chickens are slaughtered every single day and think it is morally, or ethically right.

[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: I've always thought that if you don't have the 'stomach' to kill an animal yourself ... then you shouldn't eat it.

[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: But so many of us are quite prepared to abdicate our responsibility for 'feeding ourselves' and let others do the killing for us.

[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: Including me, I might add.

[2008/07/17 17:16] sirhc DeSantis is Online

[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: I know that some of my friends or co-workers will tell me that they were raised on a farm and that I have no idea of what is going on.

[2008/07/17 17:17] Saraya Nightfire: wb sirhc )

[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: ...yet they were raised on a family farm...saw a calf born and raised it themself...and have no idea of what the conditions are at factory farms.

[2008/07/17 17:17] Cheebs Furkel: wb sirhc

[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: wb Sirhc

[2008/07/17 17:17] sirhc DeSantis: sorry - system exploded

[2008/07/17 17:17] Cheebs Furkel: are you all vegetarians?

[2008/07/17 17:17] Miralee Munro: No, I'm not ...

[2008/07/17 17:18] Miralee Munro: although I was many years ago for about seven years.

[2008/07/17 17:18] Saraya Nightfire: i am

[2008/07/17 17:18] sirhc DeSantis: well define it cheebs

[2008/07/17 17:18] Thomas Sadoul: I am...for 4 years now...but yes, sirhc knows there are lots of definitions

[2008/07/17 17:18] Saraya Nightfire: thats a point sirhc. different types

[2008/07/17 17:18] Cheebs Furkel: i was a vegetarian for about a week and then i just needed my beef. weak eh

[2008/07/17 17:18] sirhc DeSantis: no not weak - you tried

[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: I find that it's TEXTURE than I look for ...

[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: that I look for

[2008/07/17 17:19] sirhc DeSantis: yep

[2008/07/17 17:19] Thomas Sadoul: that is true....even trying is a huge step, I think.

[2008/07/17 17:19] sirhc DeSantis: being aware

[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: When I was vegetarian ... I didn't miss meat at all.

[2008/07/17 17:19] Cheebs Furkel: this may be a dumb question hehe just curious but..

[2008/07/17 17:19] Saraya Nightfire: just considering the issues involved is a major step

[2008/07/17 17:20] Thomas Sadoul: please go ahead Cheebs

[2008/07/17 17:20] Cheebs Furkel: would you eat meat if they killed the animals in a more ethical way?

[2008/07/17 17:20] Miralee Munro: If you had to kill the animal yourself Cheebs, I think you would think differently.

[2008/07/17 17:20] Thomas Sadoul: I would not now, Cheebs.

[2008/07/17 17:20] Saraya Nightfire: well, i wouldnt, but cant speak for anyone else

[2008/07/17 17:20] sirhc DeSantis: cheebs i hunted and i did kill

[2008/07/17 17:20] Cheebs Furkel: yes but that is because we are so far from nature at these times

[2008/07/17 17:21] sirhc DeSantis: this is one that will run and run

[2008/07/17 17:21] Thomas Sadoul: I think that the first time I saw my father kill a deer is when I began losing my taste for meat.

[2008/07/17 17:21] Miralee Munro: Maybe the answer is to get back to a more natural way ... if each of us were responsible for actually getting our own food (from nature) rather than the supermarket.

[2008/07/17 17:21] Thomas Sadoul: everything else came from the freezer at the store.

[2008/07/17 17:22] Thomas Sadoul: The US Department of Agriculture estimates that 10 Billion animals are killed annually for human consumption in the US alone. That doesn’t even consider the number of aquatic animal killed for human consumption but estimates are in the range of 17 billion in the US without consideration of incidental by-catch – marine or bird life that gets caught up in the process but never makes it to the dinner table.

[2008/07/17 17:22] sirhc DeSantis: miralee - we all live in trees?

[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: No ...

[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: but we are so remote from the natural world now.

[2008/07/17 17:22] Saraya Nightfire: i would happily live in a tree....

[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: so dis-connected

[2008/07/17 17:23] sirhc DeSantis: shes right

[2008/07/17 17:23] Cheebs Furkel: yes that's what i mean miralee, i dont think its right to say i'd probably think differently if i had to kill it myself.. i dont need it to survive

[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: I think we are at a crossroads ...

[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: we can either go the way of letting multi nationals feed us

[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: or we can be responsible for our own food production.

[2008/07/17 17:23] sirhc DeSantis: i'm vegan for the stupidest reason

[2008/07/17 17:24] Miralee Munro: What is that sirhc?

[2008/07/17 17:24] Thomas Sadoul agrees with Miralee

[2008/07/17 17:24] sirhc DeSantis: monkey curious

[2008/07/17 17:24] Thomas Sadoul laughs...and how long have you been curious now, Sirhc?

[2008/07/17 17:24] sirhc DeSantis: theres more now

[2008/07/17 17:25] Miralee Munro: My partner is aiming for a vegan diet .... but I don't see anything wrong with getting milk from a cow or honey from a bee.

[2008/07/17 17:25] Bonnie Diggs: thomas I told you that when I was a restauant, the fisheman were bringing in fish - that were instantly killed, felleted and sold to the neighbors,

[2008/07/17 17:25] Thomas Sadoul: I guess that comes back to how dairy cows are treated in my mind Miralee..

[2008/07/17 17:25] sirhc DeSantis: milk from a cow i will argue. honey - well thats stillunder debate

[2008/07/17 17:26] Thomas Sadoul: Some are treated horribly to increase their production of milk.

[2008/07/17 17:26] sirhc DeSantis: veal

[2008/07/17 17:26] Miralee Munro: I'm thinking along more personal lines ... small production ... family / community

[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: no problem - i kept chickens

[2008/07/17 17:27] Racky Congrejo is Offline

[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: and killed them and dressed tem

[2008/07/17 17:27] Thomas Sadoul: yes, I think there is room for smaller operations like that..where the cows may well live a better life than they might in the wild.

[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: wild cows?

[2008/07/17 17:28] Thomas Sadoul: exactly my point Sirhc

[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: I think it's an honourable thing to do ... kill your own meat ... if you can do it ... I know that that would a terrible dilemma for me ... even if I was starving ...

[2008/07/17 17:28] Racky Congrejo is Online

[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: I've seen wild cows

[2008/07/17 17:28] sirhc DeSantis: yes but at least its honest

[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: living in a remote area of Cape York in Australia

[2008/07/17 17:28] Thomas Sadoul: they are near defensless and were never intended to exist in the number they do in captivity.

[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: they'd been abandoned there many years ago

[2008/07/17 17:29] Saraya Nightfire: and they have adapted to living wild ok?

[2008/07/17 17:29] Miralee Munro: Yes ...

[2008/07/17 17:29] sirhc DeSantis: i propose an informal vote

[2008/07/17 17:29] Thomas Sadoul: ok

[2008/07/17 17:30] sirhc DeSantis: who thinks food grows in supermarkets?

[2008/07/17 17:30] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 17:30] Cheebs Furkel: lol

[2008/07/17 17:30] Thomas Sadoul laughs

[2008/07/17 17:30] Miralee Munro: I would say a lot of kids do.

[2008/07/17 17:30] Cheebs Furkel: doesnt it? :\

[2008/07/17 17:30] Thomas Sadoul: is it unanimous?

[2008/07/17 17:31] sirhc DeSantis: no vote tallied lol

[2008/07/17 17:31] Thomas Sadoul: oh, everybody raise your hands so Sirhc can count

[2008/07/17 17:31] Thomas Sadoul sees Saraya sort of raise hers...

[2008/07/17 17:31] sirhc DeSantis: theres a vote anim?

[2008/07/17 17:31] Saraya Nightfire: HEHE

[2008/07/17 17:31] Saraya Nightfire: oops, caps button

[2008/07/17 17:31] Miralee Munro: you could use Hey gesture ...

[2008/07/17 17:32] sirhc DeSantis: Hey!

[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: Hey!

[2008/07/17 17:32] sirhc DeSantis: oops voted against my proposal

[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: it works lol

[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: oh never mind lol

[2008/07/17 17:33] Thomas Sadoul: OK Bonnie, I heard you..and yes I remember you saying that but it really is not the 'norm' . For example, Shrimp fisheries are the worst with 80 – 90% of the marine life (in weight) being drug from the ocean bottom considered by-catch and waste.

[2008/07/17 17:34] Bonnie Diggs: oh god

[2008/07/17 17:34] Miralee Munro: I don't know whether it's possible to put the genie back into the bottle ... for us to turn our backs on large scale farming/fishing production methods.

[2008/07/17 17:34] Saraya Nightfire: its probably difficult with the large population of humans

[2008/07/17 17:34] Thomas Sadoul: Others are less deadly but there really isn't enough fish to keep feeding an increasing human population either.

[2008/07/17 17:34] sirhc DeSantis: how much of the world will you accept starving?

[2008/07/17 17:34] Miralee Munro: We are working harder/faster/longer to pay for a lifestyle that's not beneficial to us.

[2008/07/17 17:35] Miralee Munro: What happened to us being self-sufficient?

[2008/07/17 17:35] Miralee Munro: Growing our own food?

[2008/07/17 17:35] sirhc DeSantis: we lost

[2008/07/17 17:36] Thomas Sadoul: yes, we got caught up in 'improving' our lives and lost track of the basics, I think.

[2008/07/17 17:36] sirhc DeSantis: i have a freezer full - and if the power goes?

[2008/07/17 17:36] Miralee Munro: Mmmmm ...

[2008/07/17 17:36] Miralee Munro: We've now become dependent upon a lifestyle that isn't sustainable.

[2008/07/17 17:37] Miralee Munro: We can't look after ourselves any more.

[2008/07/17 17:37] sirhc DeSantis: thats not quite true

[2008/07/17 17:37] Miralee Munro: (or at least it's far more difficult to)

[2008/07/17 17:37] Cheebs Furkel: well we're on our way to become useless i think.. all machines

[2008/07/17 17:37] sirhc DeSantis: define lifestyle

[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: As I said ... people use up all their time working for someone else to get enough money to buy food (from someone else)

[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: The way we live our lives.

[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: I don't know that many people are really living the lives they WANT to live.

[2008/07/17 17:38] Thomas Sadoul: Sometimes Cheebs, I think we are less feeling..less empythatic with what is happening around us and how we treat others...but then you look back in history and we've always been violent, as a race.

[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: they are living lives they HAVE to.

[2008/07/17 17:38] sirhc DeSantis: until this year i grew 35% of our food

[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: Well done sirhc!

[2008/07/17 17:38] Thomas Sadoul: as a species, I mean.

[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: species? again define

[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: humans

[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: sorry, I didn't mean to alienate you lol

[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: there are people in the Sudan getting by

[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: true....

[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: and thats a shit hole

[2008/07/17 17:39] Miralee Munro: Yes, but is 'getting by' the kind of life they want to lead?

[2008/07/17 17:40] Miralee Munro: and how are they 'getting by' ... with how much support from others?

[2008/07/17 17:40] sirhc DeSantis: is it yours?

[2008/07/17 17:40] Thomas Sadoul: I think most of us would not be happy with that lifestyle...but then we excess on the other end.

[2008/07/17 17:40] Thomas Sadoul: so, many of us anyway.

[2008/07/17 17:41] sirhc DeSantis: i gave up ease of shopping - that was easy

[2008/07/17 17:41] Miralee Munro: I'm not in a life or death situation sirhc.

[2008/07/17 17:41] Cheebs Furkel: i may be wrong, english isnt my first language but i try lol; but are you saying people cannot live their lives on their own?

[2008/07/17 17:41] sirhc DeSantis: are you totally sure?

[2008/07/17 17:42] Miralee Munro: I have this idealistic notion of wondering what would happen if ALL of society's wealth was evenly divided between the world's adults ...

[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: cheebs we always did before

[2008/07/17 17:42] Thomas Sadoul: I think a huge percentage would panice if they had to suddenly, Cheebs

[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: good point

[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: sorry Boss i shut up now

[2008/07/17 17:42] Thomas Sadoul laughs

[2008/07/17 17:43] Miralee Munro: sirhc ... I'm just curious ... are you a Gemini by any chance?

[2008/07/17 17:43] Cheebs Furkel: well as far as i know we have the nature to live in a group

[2008/07/17 17:43] sirhc DeSantis: hardcore Capricoen - Goat and proud

[2008/07/17 17:43] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 17:44] Thomas Sadoul: hmm..not Leo? I should be shocked.

[2008/07/17 17:44] Thomas Sadoul: There are also non-animal rights arguments to promote vegetarianism. Global warming is one key issue for environmental vegetarians. According to a study done by the University of, switching from a meat-eating diet to vegetarianism reduces one carbon footprint by 1.4 times the amount of switching from a Toyota Camry to a Hybrid car.

[2008/07/17 17:44] FLY Saintlouis is Offline

[2008/07/17 17:45] Miralee Munro: This is a relatively new phenomenon (I think) ... this consideration of what impact our actions have on the planet.

[2008/07/17 17:45] Thomas Sadoul: I think it is gaining more of a foothold.

[2008/07/17 17:45] Miralee Munro: Which is a good thing

[2008/07/17 17:45] sirhc DeSantis: across the board i a gree

[2008/07/17 17:46] Miralee Munro: In the past, farmers, industrialists etc., just did what they wanted to do and expected Planet Earth to suck it up.

[2008/07/17 17:46] Thomas Sadoul: I remember an environmtal class 15 years ago in which we discussed the affects of animals on the climate.

[2008/07/17 17:46] Bonnie Diggs: thomas sorry I am not a global warming advocatle

[2008/07/17 17:46] Miralee Munro: But shouldn't we all tread more gently on the earth anyway Bonnie?

[2008/07/17 17:46] Bonnie Diggs: I almost crashed here

[2008/07/17 17:46] sirhc DeSantis: advocattle i love it

[2008/07/17 17:46] Thomas Sadoul smiles...a whole other class, Bonnie

[2008/07/17 17:47] Bonnie Diggs: advocate

[2008/07/17 17:47] Thomas Sadoul: ..but it is something that many are becoming so much more aware of.

[2008/07/17 17:47] Bonnie Diggs: smack you sirch

[2008/07/17 17:47] Bangle Huet is Online

[2008/07/17 17:47] Thomas Sadoul: This is because of the vast amount of methane that is put into the air from overbreeding for consumption, methane being a 32% more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Shipment of the grain and the cattle itself also plays a part in this issue, being that it takes 8 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of meat

[2008/07/17 17:47] sirhc DeSantis: ok so how many should we cull

[2008/07/17 17:47] Mysha Milland is Offline

[2008/07/17 17:47] Hayduke Ebisu is Online

[2008/07/17 17:48] Mysha Milland is Online

[2008/07/17 17:48] Bonnie Diggs: Sirhc - I do not believe in global warming.

[2008/07/17 17:48] Bonnie Diggs: K?

[2008/07/17 17:48] Thomas Sadoul: That is always something that stuck with me...that cattle need up to 10 lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat. People could be eating the grains instead of feeding cows to kill them.

[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: I wonder what the animals would be saying if they could contribute to this debate?

[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: We make decisions for these animals.

[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: What if they had a vote?

[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: interesting point T

[2008/07/17 17:49] Miralee Munro: Yes ... far more logical.

[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: yes yes yes

[2008/07/17 17:49] Miralee Munro: In the bad old days ... there were some people who didn't think that negroes were human or aborigines ...

[2008/07/17 17:49] sirhc DeSantis: bonnie chan i know - but just asking. 50% 75% 95%?

[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: no more slaughter

[2008/07/17 17:50] Thomas Sadoul is scratching his head on Sirhc's question

[2008/07/17 17:50] sirhc DeSantis: and where should we have this cull

[2008/07/17 17:50] Bonnie Diggs: I agred 100% - except for the clean kills I have witnessed

[2008/07/17 17:51] Miralee Munro: That reminds me of something some 'government official' said after that horrible tsunami a few years ago ... "It's just natural attrition" ...

[2008/07/17 17:51] sirhc DeSantis: we are too many

[2008/07/17 17:51] Miralee Munro: easy to say when it's not YOUR baby who has been swept out of your arms into the sea!

[2008/07/17 17:51] Thomas Sadoul: and all of that is assuming, in my mind Bonnie, that killing anything for our own pleasure or comfort is right. I don't accept that..clean or not.

[2008/07/17 17:51] Bonnie Diggs: The fish - caught in front of me and instanly killed

[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: Yes I agree Thomas ...

[2008/07/17 17:52] sirhc DeSantis: i volunteer

[2008/07/17 17:52] Thomas Sadoul: and that would make my mother feel better to know I was instantly killed in front of her..rather than tortured.

[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: what if it was YOUR relative?

[2008/07/17 17:52] Bonnie Diggs: and filete for the people waiting on the docks for fresh food

[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 17:52] enchanted Dagostino is Online

[2008/07/17 17:52] Mac Illios is Offline

[2008/07/17 17:53] Bonnie Diggs: YES T

[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: I am gradually working my way back to being a vegetarian ...

[2008/07/17 17:53] Bonnie Diggs: not tortured

[2008/07/17 17:53] Thomas Sadoul: don't think my mom would care though...

[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: I just have to keep reminding myself that another sentient being's life is being taken just so I can have a tasty snakc.

[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: snack

[2008/07/17 17:54] sirhc DeSantis: no Bonnie shoot me in the back of the head. then compost me

[2008/07/17 17:54] Thomas Sadoul laughs

[2008/07/17 17:54] Miralee Munro: Bonnie, have you ever killed anything yourself?

[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: problem is OUR socieity it horribly hurting the cows

[2008/07/17 17:54] Miralee Munro: Our society is you and me Bonnie.

[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: Sickening

[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: yes

[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: I do eat beef

[2008/07/17 17:55] Bonnie Diggs: nor prok

[2008/07/17 17:55] Miralee Munro: What kind of meat uyou eat is kinda irrelevant ...

[2008/07/17 17:55] Thomas Sadoul thinks you meant to say "don't eat beef"

[2008/07/17 17:55] Mac Illios is Online

[2008/07/17 17:55] Thomas Sadoul: that's true Miralee...

[2008/07/17 17:56] Miralee Munro: Bonnie .... have you? Have you ever killed an animal yourself?

[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: i have

[2008/07/17 17:56] Miralee Munro: I've killed a fish.

[2008/07/17 17:56] Bonnie Diggs: I have things on TV that are so horrifying - pushing the half dead cows with machines - off onto the side

[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: geese

[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: chickens

[2008/07/17 17:56] Saraya Nightfire: there isnt actually any need to eat animals. There is no dietary necessity. All the nutrients can be obtained from other sources

[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: rabbits

[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: miralee - you can kill and eat a fish

[2008/07/17 17:57] Thomas Sadoul took the first fish I caught to bed with a sleeping bag....and a raccoon crawled in and stole it.

[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: I can't see any good reason why an animal should sacrifice its life, just so I can have the sensory experience of eating that texture.

[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: I do not that that its the same thing

[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: Yes ... I CAN kill a fish, but have no great desire to.

[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: thomas - I thought I loved you

[2008/07/17 17:57] Thomas Sadoul laughs

[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: lol Thomas!

[2008/07/17 17:58] Miralee Munro: Why did you take the fish to bed?

[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: I don't know, I was was the first one I had caught...and of course, I had been taught that was a good thing then.

[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: it was a prize I guess...

[2008/07/17 17:58] sirhc DeSantis: where else if you are vegan? fish always go to bed

[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: we do that, value something dead more than alive.

[2008/07/17 17:59] Thomas Sadoul: ..and that's a sorry statement, I think.

[2008/07/17 17:59] Bonnie Diggs: t - a real sicko

[2008/07/17 17:59] sirhc DeSantis: explain

[2008/07/17 17:59] Saraya Nightfire: when its dead, we dont have to feel responsible, therefore we can allow some feeling

[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: Isn't the halal way of killing ... at least you apologise to the animal, and thank it for giving up its life so that you can eat?

[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: There's a kind of morality (and politeness) about that!

[2008/07/17 18:00] Bonnie Diggs: thomas - i live on the ocean and I cannot tell you what I have to

[2008/07/17 18:00] Bonnie Diggs: listento

[2008/07/17 18:00] sirhc DeSantis: ok but you still slaughter

[2008/07/17 18:00] Thomas Sadoul: yes, that's true Miralee...society does sometimes try to justify or apologize for it's actions.

[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: Yes ... but what is 'nature's way' ....

[2008/07/17 18:01] Miralee Munro: If people have a 'desire' for meat, does that mean it's natural?

[2008/07/17 18:01] Bonnie Diggs: men BIG MEN bring up baby sharks and throw them into carbage pails

[2008/07/17 18:01] sirhc DeSantis: live in a tree

[2008/07/17 18:01] Thomas Sadoul: and I'm glad you brought that up because we're out of time here but next week, I want to get into the view of vegetarianism from different religions.

[2008/07/17 18:01] sirhc DeSantis: and yes eat raw m3eat

[2008/07/17 18:01] Bonnie Diggs: If I WERE three they would be back into the ocean!

[2008/07/17 18:02] Miralee Munro: Very good discussion Thomas ... I've enjoyed it a lot.

[2008/07/17 18:02] Thomas Sadoul: Thank you Miralee. Thanks to everybody.

[2008/07/17 18:02] Bonnie Diggs: I enjoyed hearing Miralee especially.

[2008/07/17 18:02] Thomas Sadoul: it has been interesting, I think

[2008/07/17 18:02] Racky Congrejo is Offline

[2008/07/17 18:03] hanico Vella is Online

[2008/07/17 18:03] Bonnie Diggs: and sirhc - you are a funny man!

[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: Oh thank you Bonnie.

[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: Now I'd better go and do something with my day

[2008/07/17 18:03] Thomas Sadoul: yes, Sirhc and Bonnie alwyas try to keep me on my toes.

[2008/07/17 18:03] Bonnie Diggs: yw Miarlee and I hope we speak again.

[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: I usually log off at 9am, but this was too good not to come to.

[2008/07/17 18:04] Thomas Sadoul: ok..nice meeting you Miralee. Hope to see you again

[2008/07/17 18:04] Thomas Sadoul: ..even if it's past 9am for you.

[2008/07/17 18:04] Miralee Munro: I don't know whether I'll be able to make it next week ... but I'll try.

[2008/07/17 18:04] Thomas Sadoul: ok, ty

[2008/07/17 18:04] Bonnie Diggs: Miralee - better!

[2008/07/17 18:04] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 18:05] Miralee Munro: I'm about to set off on a "Around Australia" road trip

[2008/07/17 18:05] Miralee Munro: so I have some prep work to get done before I leave on 1st September.

[2008/07/17 18:05] Thomas Sadoul: cool

[2008/07/17 18:05] Thomas Sadoul: September will be her before you know it.

[2008/07/17 18:05] Miralee Munro: Okay .. lovely to have met you all ... hope we get another chance to talk.

[2008/07/17 18:06] Thomas Sadoul: take care

[2008/07/17 18:06] Miralee Munro: Bye for now ... I'm supposed to be marooned on our island

[2008/07/17 18:06] Miralee Munro: so I've really pushed it today!

[2008/07/17 18:06] Miralee Munro: lol

[2008/07/17 18:06] Miralee Munro: Bye!

[2008/07/17 18:06] Thomas Sadoul: I'm headed home too

[2008/07/17 18:06] Thomas Sadoul: bye

[2008/07/17 18:06] Thomas Sadoul: bye Sirhc

[2008/07/17 18:07] Bonnie Diggs: it was enjoyable
Visibility: Everyone
Posted: Tuesday July 22, 2008, 5:57 pm
Tags: vegan vegetarian ethics secondlife [add/edit tags]

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Barry Berger
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