22,415,925 members doing good!
about our ads
share your passions, stories, inspirations, and more
Vegans, Stop the Nastiness
Oct 4, 2008

Veganism is a personal choice that should not be used to vilify those who have not made that choice. I am sick and tired of personal attacks by a small group of vegans who routinely post ugly personal comments about non-vegans - everyday Care2 members who do not mistreat or abuse animals.

Not all people who raise animals for food, especially folks who keep a small amount of livestock for personal use, treat those animals as a product or a thing. My mother-in-law, dead now for 4 years, raised chickens for their eggs and they had the run of her entire yard during the daylight hours. She fed them nutritious greens and fruit and well as grains. If one sickened, she put the sick bird out of its misery quickly and humanely. She gave her delicious, often double-yolked organic eggs away to her family, neighbors and friends. I refuse to condemn her as a person who cruelly mistreated or exploited animals. The only animal I can recall her ever putting down that was healthy was an absolutely vicious rooster that she raised from a hatchling from one of her own chickens - that bird bit and clawed everything and everyone. He did go into the soup pot for stock - and he was put down quickly and humanely.

If all animal farming was abolished right now with a flick of a vegan magic wand, every cow would be dead, and die horribly, within a month or less. So would most chickens. ducks, pigs and many other creatures that humans have domesticated.

Yes, I hate factory farming and animal cruelty, but people who keep and raise animals for food and  who treat their animals with love, respect and kindness abound. And when the animals are killed, it is done humanely, and every scrap is generally used - nothing that can be utilized is wasted. I do not fault people who keep animals for their food and other products, such as milk, eggs, fur, etc. if the animals are well-cared for throughout their lives. I used to buy raw milk from a family farm here in Connecticut. In order to sell raw milk, this family and their farmhands had to meet the strictest standards of animal and equipment care and cleanliness.

Vegans, you have embraced a lifestyle that suits your diet and your conscience. I respect that. But please stop attacking those who do not subscribe to your beliefs. Because someone consumes animal products does not make that person an unfeeling monster.
Visibility: Everyone
Posted: Saturday October 4, 2008, 3:12 pm
Tags: animals food animal farms vegans products farming veganism intolerance [add/edit tags]

Group Discussions start a discussion
Comments
Or, log in with your
Facebook account:
Compose your comment and submit:

ROBIN M. (312) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:02 pm
I AM NOT VAGEN BUT AND I HAVE LIVED ON A FARM AND I KNOW HOW FAMILY FARMS ARE RUN IT IS DIFFERENT THEN THE CITY. BUT I AM AGAINST FACTORY FARMING I BELIEVE WHILE THE ANIMAL IS ALIVE THEY SHOULD BE TREATED HUMANELY THAT IS HOW WE TREATED OURS.

Kat Wounded Cougar (400) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:03 pm
I agree with you, Cate. I have been vegan for quite a while in the past, although I eat meat and dairy again now. It is a personal choice, and we all should try to respect each others beliefs and ways of life, please. Thanks for leetting me share.

Past Member (0) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:06 pm
THANK YOU CATE,No I was raised too eat our own ,egg's ,and yes meat.no animal was harmed for sport.people depen on different diet's.and yes some need red meat white meat.I don't care what people eat.I am mostly veggie Well dark chocolate.

Faith M. (167) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:07 pm
Exactly and wellsaid and to the people who have chosen Vegan yea for U but remember you would not be on this planet if ur ancesters had been for they all would have died they ate what they had and farmed what they ate both animals and veggies
and in many a year with no veggies because of drought or disease or war there were no veggies to eat so they ate meat to survive so can we can the holier than though garbage please

MADARTIST OF MUDDY FINGERS (437) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:11 pm
It is a sign of intolerance and or fanaticism that is the issue. NOBODY has the right to be harassing, judgmental or harsh to anyone for their beliefs. Right? AT least in a mature forum, that is. It is OK to be Vegan. But if you are not, that is a choice as well...NO ONE has the right to take someone else's rights away from them.

. (0) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:20 pm
Peta wants to tax meat!!!!!!!
An argument could be made that Peta is costing governments and tax payers money by their actions and Peta membership should be taxed to pay for this!
It is a fact of life that most living things live by eating something else, they always have and they always will.
There are some who believe that plants have feelings and consciousness too, then what are you going to do?
Let see if I have this right,
Save the sharks, they are carnivores
Save the polar bears, they are carnivores
Save the big cats, they are carnivores
Save the wolves, they are carnivores.
Save the great apes, most of them are vegetarians because the great apes that eat meat turned into humans, THIS IS NOT A ONE WAY STREET!
So, if enough of you turn into vegetarians, then humans who eat meat could get on the endangered species list and you would have to protect our environment and our way of living!
OH YA! and pigs are omnivores and given the chance they would eat YOU
We carnivores out number you, so play nice.


Phyllis P. (406) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:22 pm
Just like the presidential election, we all have our choices. Respect for one's choice should be the priority. Too often it is not. It is not a bad thing to say why you choose do to something the way you do, but don't condemn someone for not adopting your view. You go, Cate!!!

Eric Angeletti (503) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:34 pm
I thought that the name Care2 implied that caring was and important part –

I am involved at al times with both Animal rescue and people rescue - I personally would like to be vegan but am not able to spend that much time planning ,meals etc etc –

I have noticed that I really like buying all my food from organic grocers - unfortunately I cannot affords it - and end up broke before the fist week or two -- those who know me know that


I care more than most - and yes I shed tears when I see and or think about the tragic and inhumane treatment of any creature.

I have had friends here on care2 that are now deleted and blocked from some stuff a couple of years ago along these same lines – they are good people too; so it saddens me – but I will not be a part of closed minded uniformed slander.

– it is my hope that one day all the members of care2 can care abut each other enough too help and inform rather than slander and degrade – as well it is also my hope that all people will really seek knowledge from many sources to get a well rounded view along with discernment.

I remember in boot camp when my unit started arguing amongst ourselves and our drill sergeant made us put on each others boots and march back and forth for an hour – what a lesson we got in humility that day (as well as really sore feet) and a great appreciation for the saying walk a mile in another mans shoes.

You never really know what someone is going through – I hope that all people here and other places can stop and think a little before slamming someone else.

Peace and Health to you and yours!

Dusty R. (1339) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:35 pm
I think those that are vegan need to remember that they themselves didn't start out that way. I do not like factory farms....glad to see that laws are starting to be implemented sos that the animals are treated more humanely. Growing up on a farm..we did not pen up any of our livestock.....and they were taken care of. I dislike the attitude that some people on Care2 have with regards to a "holier than thou" mentality. All one can do is educate people with regards to the pros and cons of vegan..........people will decide for themselves.

Eric Angeletti (503) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:38 pm
PS I meant that about BOTH sides od ANY Issue

RC deWinter (418) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:47 pm
I deleted Schroedinger's comments, folks, and blocked him, because he is a fanatic who won't shut up. If that makes me an intolerant jerk so be it. I dislike ranting and harping on the same thing over and over by anyone...and he is a prime example of someone who never - at least as far as I have seen - posts unless it's negative.

FreeSpirit Running (307) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 4:52 pm
Sweet Cate,
I like to think of this topic as a matter of personal choice. I do not condemn anyone for their personal food habits. However, I just don't like certain choices like eating dogs & cats for food, but that is out of my control.

I believe that people choose to eat what they eat for their beliefs sometimes. Although I do not like to eat red meat, every now & then I break down & crave a steak, sorry...I am italian & we grew up with meatballs & spare ribs in our speghetti sauce.
I do not ever put down vegans, that is their choice. I must agree with you that people who choose to be vegan should not try to persaude nor have to say mean things to people that eat meat, there's no need for that. It's all a matter of choice. I don't put vegans down because of it.

This is just my opinion sweetie. My Mommy grew up on a farm in Mass. as a little girl she also saw her Aunt & Uncle treating the animals there very well, but you have to survive in this world, so she understood it all.

It's called acceptance. I accept the vegans of the world, and respect everyones choice of food. So, leave me alone if I want a steak every now and then, that's all I ask.

Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts my friend.

Namaste'
FreeSpiritRunning...

Pamylle G. (429) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 5:20 pm
It is difficult to "unplug" from a sick society. If we look at all the causes here on Care2, I think any one of us would be hard put to do "everything right".

Cate has been moved to write this blog in a response to something which so easily occurs: our enthusiasm or passion for a given cause gives way to judgement.

We are allowed to judge things for ourselves. When we are judgemental towards others, it works against the very thing we care about ! We must take care to have respect and tolerance, for without them, dialogue breaks down.

It's not just the vegans, either. I have had whiffs of the "more activist than thou" odor in other quarters.

I think the case of Cate's mother-in-law shows a humane scenario for people who eat animal-derived foods, and as such, is a model. Our vegan friends need to realize that it is unlikely the entire world shall ever be vegan. I do believe, however, gross cruelty and atrocities can come to an end.

Personally, I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian. I have a vegan friend who confesses she is "working on me", but she does so lovingly and with my permission, for I wish to move in that direction. For myself, I wish to disengage from the subjugation of animals.

Let us be kind and loving toward each other. Let us inspire each other, rather than criticize.

Past Member (0) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 5:20 pm
You go girl!!!! I couldn't have said it better. Personally, I think the lack of protein has made them cranky. I also hear from doctors that vegans have to get vitamin b-12 shots.

Paul ABC (2) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 5:38 pm
Yes I agree but generaly speaking in comparison its more often than not the other way around!.But of course two wrongs dont make a right so yes each makes his choice for himself.

One of the problems is that if a person is convinced that when another by eating meat contributes to keeping millions of people starving in the third world aswell as animal cruelty it will be hard of course for the Vegetarian not to express his/her dismay when the opportunity allows.Also who cares what happened in days gone by-the situation as it is NOW on this planet matters and that goes too for personal family history.

"...Nobody has the right to be harressing judgmental or harsh to anyone for their beliefs"!!?.Well the Taliban will love that one and when the next time a gang of skinheads shout out"Sieg Heil"at their next demo dont forget to walk on by and let them keep their opinions!(oh you do!?).What a load of cliche pre printed not well thought out ideology.Tolerance means tolerating right?.So we have to tolerate those Vegans who are of the opinion and conviction that meat eaters cause suffering to express their opinions accordingly.Just,for example,as people on hearing of the mistreatment and neglect of i.e pets(i.e Dog Tethering)wont always express their OPINIONS in a calm and respectful(!?)manner!.It all depends on the persons interpretation and strength of conviction.On the issue of mass meat production-remember cows dont give milk we take it!.

To continue to torture animals for the meat production to feed one third of the world because to stop it would cause temporary torture doesnt make sense to me.When something is wrong and causes suffering its not an argument for it to continue because to stop would cause suffering...temporary?.

I am not a Vegan by the way nor a vegetarian-we just dont indulge but eat little meat or certain animal products and when we do then if possible organic.We also try to buy local produce and certainly nothing imported from China for example(We saw FRESH (!?)mushrooms imported from China last month in a well known supermarket!) .Freedom,tolerance and liberty can get sometimes very fine tuned in certain situations.

Joycey B. (750) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 6:29 pm
I feel everyone has a choice and should be respected by it and not have personal attacks made on them. Everyone has their own belief.

Past Member (0) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 7:04 pm
I agree its a choice make your choice and shut the feg up !

Gail L. (30) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 7:15 pm
I agree with you Catw.

William V. SAFARIK JR. (4) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 7:37 pm
A Vegetarian doesn't eat any meat products and a Meatatarian will and can eat anything they choose....Sooooo Children let's play nice and don't hurt each other...

Maria V. (60) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 8:17 pm
Thank you, Cate. I agree with you 100%, and appreciate you bringing attention to this topic.

Ariel H. (46) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 8:41 pm
I have recently become vegatarian. My partner and I started with a 21 day cleanse and found that afterwards most all meat just didn't taste the same and I have lost the taste for it.

I believe that most people on Care2 are far more consciencentious about who and what they support in their eating habits than most others on the planet. I agree with Cate. I personally know a native american woman who runs a bison ranch. Those Bison are very well cared for and darn near doted upon. She humanely kills them after thanking them for their life and spirit and she utilizes everything from the animal as she was taught. I also know a couple who own a cattle ranch and have always said if I ate beef I would get mine from them since they are free range and also doted after.

There is no need for a militant badgering attitude, on Care2 or elsewhere. Care2 is supposed to have a respectful and ethical standard to treat one another by.

Thank you Cate, I had not realized it had gotten so out of control. As a newby vegatarian I wish it were different. I agree with so many of the comments that people have made.

Ariel

Runatik WTF (42) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 8:51 pm
I tend to eat meat very sparingly, it seems all I need or desire. While I occasionally forget, I usually give thanks to the animal spirit that has contributed to my nourishment. But I appreciate being reminded that life spirit exists also in our vegetables, fruits and grains. I will include them in my thanks.

Wolfweeps Pommawolf (251) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 9:07 pm
I absolutely agree with you Cate. I and my hubby are most completely beef free because of my hubby's allergy to pennicillian. FActory farms load the animals with antibotics and hormones, and most people fail to realize that it does affect the person who eat the cattle by-products. My hubby lost a stepbrother when he reacted to a pennicillian allergy, so we have avoided most if not all things that have any contact with antibotics.
Secondly...vegan is a choice...repeat a choice. Quite honestly up until 1989 I constantly had craving for red meat...not knowing that I was severely anemic. My blood iron was extremely low because I was having super heavy periods for almost 5 years. Doctors never caught it. I started going through the change at the early age of 35, and got fed up with it, and because the doctors refused to give me a hysterectomy because they said I was too young...and they couldn't give a crap that I had my tubes tied at age 19 trying to not be a baby machine...being responsible....oh I hate doctors...playng GOD. But I fixed them...*S* I had a procedure in 2001 that stopped my periods forever..thank you GOD, and now that craving for beef has been forever removed from my diet.... But most people still need the protein only meat provides when the dietary needs cannot be met....thats a fact.
As for forcing this vegan life style...
All of you are right in the difference between factory farms and family farms.
I really think these people have taken the attitudes to the extreme. Its a power struggle...the us vs them mindset. I'm sure on some level they know that family farms and factory farms are vastly different, but they don't want to acknowledge in front of each other. Why? Because they do not want a compromise...they want to better than everybody else and it is an attitude that gains them acceptance in their groups.
I abhor the violence involved in factory farming. I can't even stand the raising of hand to a stray animal without losing my cool with the person I witness doing it. But until factory farming can be reinvented..or abolished altogether, and the whole industry ended forever....the vegans need to go after the industry..and not the individuals not like themselves. Instead of being nasty and mean..they need to help come up with new alternatives..and change the whole damn thing without stomping all over innocent people in the process. Their behavior just reveals them to be very unhappy, ill mannered unkind people. How can they lay claim to compassion when they show none to their fellow human beings who are innocent bystanders? Its a conflict that they refuse to acknowledge...so they they take the easy path and attack those that are the easier target....us.....
Until they can act like civilized equals with the rest of human beings...it will be our heads their aanger will be heaped upon....so...so I mutter under my breath....(pickle weasels)... whenever the topic is thrown in my face yet again.....they can bite me....*S*

Brandy Ramos (238) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 9:54 pm
Thanks Cate for the blog. Unfortunately when one group of people make a decision they always think they are right. They want everyone to follow in there lead. I love animals, but I also eat meat. Meat has been in my diet since birth and I am not planing on changing that. Personal choices should not be imposed on others.

Clever Pseudonym (176) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 9:55 pm
No, Cate, it doesn't make them unfeeling. It just means they are able to quiet that part of their conscience that tells them what they're doing is wrong and unnecessary because they think it would be too hard to be merciful to the 100 or so creatures who have to live in misery and/or die strictly for their convenience.

I can sympathize with you though because I have no sympathy for the unborn and there are plenty of very obnoxioua advocates for the rights of fetuses over the rights of their hosts. If I had the same feelings for the unborn that I do for animals who give their lives for the convenience or entertainment of humans I would probably be an ass in their behalf as well but since I don't I find these people irritating. Rather than bitch about them though I either choose to engage them or ignore them. I know that I can no more expect them to stop feeling the way they do than you can expect me to stop caring about your abuse of animals.

They will continue to justify abortion clinic bombers. I will continue to support ALF. When I challenge their beliefs and they tell me off they will feel better about themselves, comforted by their delusions of superior compassion, as do I when I take the time to tell you off.

I still love you and think you're a wonderful and compassionate person, but you can't expect me not to resent your abuse of animals. I'm not capable of it.

Clever Pseudonym (176) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 10:00 pm
BB,
bears are omnivores & humans are smart enogh to be able to live better without cruelty than we do with it. Meat is a lazy and inefficient way to fuel your body.

Margaret B. (164) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 10:04 pm
I was also raised on a farm in CT and from the time I could walk was taught how to and not to treat animals. We were taught that they were also the Great Spirit's creations just as we were and to be treat as such. Vagenism is a way of life for those that chose, some do not chose that way either because they do not wish to do so, their health does not permit them to be or they are on a limited income and cannot but organic...what ever happened to the verse that says "judge not lest you be judged"? I respect all lifestyles and expect people to do the same for me and my friends...Care2 was not set up for a place to launch personal attacks against one another...I believe we are supposed to be working together to stop cruelty against animals, humans and on all aspects of life...so please please people knock off the personal vendettas and lets work together to stop factory farming and other cruelities towards animals, child abuse, abuse against women and other MORE important issues, if you cannot do this I suggest you take your meaness elsewhere!

Clever Pseudonym (176) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 10:12 pm
Pamylle,
Excellent point. I was a Mormon missionary so you can imagine I have a tendancy to vilify anyone who is not in lock-step with my value system. Despite my words above, I think this thread has provided me an important reminder of how the way I choose to react to others typically does not help my cause.
Not all vegans and not all pro-life advocates act the way I was justifying above. It's a personal problem I need to grow out of. Thank you all for this learning experience and my apologies.

CHRISTIAN RYAN (11) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 10:15 pm
Let all people eat what they like someday you may have to eat meat and I dont like being made to feel bad in my choices of food i dont eat meat much but i want my chese so go eat some sprouts chris

Stephen Hannon (203) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 10:42 pm
No one should get slammed because they're not Vegans. It just doesn't make sense. If Vegans don't like those of us who are not then all they have to do is not bother with us, rather than slam us. We don't deliberately slam Vegans and we don't deserve to get slammed.

Carol W. (119) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 11:15 pm
Thanks Cate. I was a vegetarian for 8 years, and then raw foods another 4 years before going back to grains, and eventually some meat. I found it humbling and was grateful sharing with others, and never pressing my views or complaining about what others ate. I agree with someone that mentions, Care2 is for caring. This was a necessary blog. Very glad to see you start it.

Carol W. (119) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 11:31 pm
I lived on a small family farm. Where all feedings were purely science of diets. The butcher was local and meats were from family and neighbors. Along with enormous gardens, plentiful fruit trees and bushes. It was when I fist left home and saw a grocery store that I knew to stay healthy I would have to become vegetarian. I met so many people and groups during my vegetarian years. All had strong purpose and reason, few had much knowledge about nutrition. My objective was 'nutrition'. I have many vegan friends that do not mind others eating meat. but I noticed my vegan friends get much food from canned goods. and in my opinion, that is not healthy. The cans are lined with toxins, and I could really go ballistic and pointing out the mistakes in their diets, but I resist. As they resist my preferences.

Janet Wintle (87) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 11:38 pm
Well done, for this posting I do not feel so bad when I see a little glimmer of hope with some who no how to treat these animals with the love and care that they deserve. Bless you all. There is no thing that will defile you going into your mouths it is what comes out, that is what will defile you. Bless this world oh Lord, with peace and understanding of the rightful laws, Amen Janet.

Dalia H. (1225) 		Saturday October 4, 2008, 11:47 pm
WELL SAID AND WELL DONE MY DEAREST CATE. WE, AS MEMBERS OF CARE2 MUST SHOW RESPECT TO EACH OTHER. IT DOESN'T MATTER THE RACE, RELIGION, HABITS GOOD OR BAD, WE ALL ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH DEFECTS AND QUALITIES AND EVERYONE IS SPECIAL AND IT IS NOT THE SAME LIKE OTHERS. HAVE A GOOD EVENING MY DEAREST FRIENDS. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES TOO.
MUCH LOVE AS ALWAYS, DALIA E.:)

Carrie L. (202) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 12:18 am
And please check people's profiles, which state clearly what a member's prefernce is, before you email them to ask and then get snotty when you find out that they aren't vegan. And please don't tell me that the cats in my cat rescue DESERVE to die because they are meat eaters.

I was raised on a farm and knew dinner personally. I became a vegeterian when I was 5 or 6 and for the most part was happy to graze in the garden until I became severely anemic. I still eat very little meat, but I do eat some.

EowynAnne Malfoy (69) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 12:59 am
I agree Cate...I'm a vegetarian now but I used to be a vegan during 8 years. I have noticed how intolerant most of those people were...and after a while, they actually made me mad!! So..as I did not want to be a part of their "group" anymore...I went back to vegetarianism! the effect was not what they expected!!!!
everybody makes choices....I chose to be a vegetarian but I would never impose MY choice on others.....
and vegans (well, not all of them!!!!I have most wonderful vegan friends as well), extremist vegans let's say, are just offending people and are doing everything but helping the cause they are supposed to serve!!
so, thanks Cate for this!!!!

ps : I confirm that some vagens are great!!!! ;-)...just as some vegetarians some "regular" people.....they are some stupid people...everywhere!

Marian E. (152) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:24 am
Good common sense post Cate. I've noticed a nasty side to some vegans also, despite the fact that they have no problem with euthanizing a very sick or hurt animal. My feeling is that if we can humanely end the life of an animal in pain, we can humanely end the life of one used for food. Most small farms provide very good care of their animals, not just out of necessity, but also because they do honestly care for the animals. That's usually a big reason why they chose farm life.






Marla de Vries (862) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:32 am
You are so right !

EowynAnne Malfoy (69) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:41 am
and...in those vegan groups, I was alaways shocked to see that they would not sign petitions for animal well being or save animals....
animals just had to ..deal with themselves!
some were even telling to make all "meat eating" animals die!!!!
so...where is the love of animals in this????

well..my 2 cents.....from an ex-vegan!

Past Member (0) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 3:42 am
Amen Cate!! I eat a very limited meat & other animal source foods. Everything in moderation!!

Plant trees for life.......

Katie S. (70) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 4:03 am
I agree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

My personal view is that the only people who have the right to eat meat are those that can raise and kill the animals themselves. If you could never kill an animal then you shouldn't just let someone else do the dirty work for you.

Sheila K. (127) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 5:46 am
Cate, thanks for expressing your views so eloquently and I'm sure the views of MOST of the population here on Care2. Taking blantant and unaccepting views as some people do on this site can be compared to religious fanatics who don't accept OR respect other people's right to their choice of religion OR NOT religion. Before I moved to the place I'm living here in North Carolina I had NO idea about how a place that keept animals and chickens was run. The people I'm renting from own 20 acres of beautiful land. They raise FREE RANGE eggs NOT chickens. The chickens have their own spacious area where they are not only feed the best grains, but they are able to run free within the confines of their area. There are roosters and hens and little chicks. The eggs are the best eggs you can find because they are free of horomones, etc. The chickens are treated with love and care and even have 2 beautiful "homes". They did have goats here as well, but they were not used for anything except to "range" and eat the grass. Due to the drought here they didn't have enough grass and were sold to a family who wanted to keep goats for the same reason and not for any abuse. There are also horses on this land who get the BEST food and well water and are brushed every day. I have learned alot after having been a "city girl" my entire life about how wonderful it can be to be surrounded by animals and watch nature through them. These are NOT food farms and there are numerous places like this in the area I live. I am against inhuman treatment of anything and that includes animals. I have seen documentaries on the inhuman killing and treatment of animals raised for food on those food farms. This is NOT what Cate or any of us on Care2 are advocating. I don't know what's been happening on this site in the short year and a half I have been a member, but it seems that there are many people on here who THINK they are being loving and accepting and have turned out to be intolerant "ranters".

Hans L. (958) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 6:11 am
Kudos to you Cate!
Toni is the man who made it possible that Austria was the first cage free country! Is he a bad guy?
http://www.tonis.at/index.php?id=6&L=1
Any creature, human or animal, can only be happy if it has the chance to live in freedom and dignity. Like the chickens raised on the farms of Toni’s free range eggs. They have plenty of room to move around, fresh air, and are given top-quality feed on a strictly vegetarian basis.
And because our chickens are able to live their lives the way nature intended, in a natural, healthy environment, they lay the best eggs under the sun – providing you with a nutritious, tasty choice.

Its all about respect people!
Namaste
Hans

Past Member (0) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:07 am
To each their own...we all have choses and can make up our own minds for our own way of life..Freedom ..that is what it is about..Hugs, Jaylena

Roberto A. (123) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:10 am
I am with you Cate.

RC deWinter (418) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:24 am
Just a note...any comments besides Schroedinger's that have been deleted were either duplicates, complaints re duplicates or blanks. Nothing is being censored....except Schroedinger.

Shoshana B. (138) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:25 am
I am a vegan, but I never force my beliefs on others. It disgusts me when other vegans do this, because it makes people view vegans in a negative light. Thank you for posting this.

Past Member (0) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:34 am
Dear Cate!
Thank you for this blog! Its great open minded and i love that you will not censore anything that is just opinion! If Daphne would be here you would have to delete all the F words....but i think that its great to see that we can discuss this like adults....Otherwise we would need Arnie as Kindergartencop!LOL!
Against factory farming is a great first start and people like Hans has linked to Anton of Tonis Freilandeier show us how it can go....
One million vegans in Austria could not do for the animals what he did with his marketshare in Austria 100%! No cages for chickens in Austria thanks to this guy who had the right nose for this niche....and is now the king of eggs in Austria!

Please if you have to censore things can you post it in my group ZENSUR? I would love to read the extremists opinions!
http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/Zensur

I know that Hans has repaired a few broken relationships between people who could not agree on this topic! Its easy as long as you respect that everybody is free to do as he like!
I know people who eat meat but do more for animals than vegans.....
Again thank you and keep this thread as clean as possible!

Elizabeth N. (83) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:55 am
Cate - I completely agree with everything that you said. I hate factory farming, also, but I think that what anyone puts in his or her mouth is a personal choice.

MADARTIST OF MUDDY FINGERS (437) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:13 am
I have said this before on so many issues..it is a balance one needs to deal with it all. Extremists are a step into chaos...it does exactly make for open minded decisions or actions.I am happy and proud of people here that can see both sides of an issue, yet stand by them maturely and rationally!
To me, that is a sign to hope and chance of a future for us.

MADARTIST OF MUDDY FINGERS (437) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:13 am
I have said this before on so many issues..it is a balance one needs to deal with it all. Extremists are a step into chaos...it does exactly make for open minded decisions or actions.I am happy and proud of people here that can see both sides of an issue, yet stand by them maturely and rationally!
To me, that is a sign to hope and chance of a future for us.

MADARTIST OF MUDDY FINGERS (437) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:14 am
OH drat..TWICE???? sorry!

Lisa Parshley (29) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:18 am
Choosing to be a vegan is as you have said, Cate, a choice. The animals are here for a purpose and were not created by man. Kat,( and everyone else) thank you for YOUR respect to those of us who do not practice lifestyle of a vegan.

Past Member (0) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:38 am
Cate you rock! Bravissimo!

Terrie Williams (540) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 9:50 am
I agree with you Cate 1000%

Personally, I feel the depth of hateful viciousness that I have seen posted in places at care2 by vegans is due to a chemical or hormonal imbalance in their bodies that makes them respond the way they do. They, in my opinion only, are not getting what their brains, or their bodies in general, need to function coherently and thus it shows up in their personalities and their interactions with those that do not choose as they do. NOT ALL VEGANS ARE THIS WAY!!! Just as not all vegetarians are either.

It is just a thought. That (chemical/hormonal imbalance) is what I hope it is because if these certain vegans/vegetarians ARE or have been this way, opinion and personality-wise all their lives, it is a wonder anyone other than other vegans/vegetarians ever had or continue to have any type of relationship with them--personally, professionally or within their own families.

It is my hope that they would seek medical attention or at least get a blood panel done to see if, or whether it may be, something lacking in their diets: vitamin, mineral, protein or enzyme-wise that could be supplemented. Just a thought.

I mean no disrespect to the many vegans/vegetarians out there. Not all vegans or vegetarians have this depth of hatred or viciousness to them at all. And I certainly mean no offence to my many vegan/vegetarians friends!

It is a personal choice! I do not condemn those who choose this path in life. I just wish they could have the same respect for those that choose a different path.


Alice O. (246) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 12:36 pm
I fully agree with you Cate. I live in front of a farm and you can see the difference between farm animals and factory farmed animals straight away. You should see the chickens: the open air enclosure where they are kept is over twice the size of my new flat, there are plants, and the animals eat both the scraps from the veggies the farmer gives them and the bugs they catch. Whoever ate a chicken from a farm knows the difference straight away. I am cutting down on meat as much as I can, and hoping to become vegetarian as soon as possible, but this is only my choice and all choices have to be respected. What I don't respect is things like factory farming, as that is only an exploitation of innocents with the only goal of making money, and without any sort of care for their welfare. But whoever visites a farm (a proper one) sees how differently animals are treated.

Echo ELES (264) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:09 pm
Where is this happening? Can I get a few examples? And who is doing it? I guess I have missed it.

Mary H. (47) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:11 pm
I grew up on a farm -- and I am not a vegan...but I am a person who does not abuse animals or watch while they are being abused...
Just because I don't live the same lifestyle doesn't make me a bad person -- I don't make rude remarks about others & would appreciate the same courtesy returned.
BB
Mary

Alice O. (246) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:15 pm
I fully agree with you Cate. I live in front of a farm and you can see the difference between farm animals and factory farmed animals straight away. You should see the chickens: the open air enclosure where they are kept is over twice the size of my new flat, there are plants, and the animals eat both the scraps from the veggies the farmer gives them and the bugs they catch. Whoever ate a chicken from a farm knows the difference straight away. I am cutting down on meat as much as I can, and hoping to become vegetarian as soon as possible, but this is only my choice and all choices have to be respected. What I don't respect is things like factory farming, as that is only an exploitation of innocents with the only goal of making money, and without any sort of care for their welfare. But whoever visites a farm (a proper one) sees how differently animals are treated.

Mary H. (47) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:19 pm
PS
All our animals were attended before we ate -- both morning & night...they were talked to & shared secrets with -- much better than how some children are attended.
Any 'stray' (dumped domesticated pet usually) was fed & made part of the family for they each contributed in their way. Some keeping the fox out of the hen house, some catching and eating field mice & pests. None were ever abused or abandoned.

Echo ELES (264) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:30 pm
I dont know who is being "Nasty" but I wanted to throw this out there for anyone who wants to check it out.. I find it VERY inspirational!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFqRCc08V6k

:)

Nancy M. (210) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 1:49 pm
Allelujiah!

jessica g. (47) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 4:55 pm
I Totally understand what you mean. I had a so called "Foxy Vegan" Tell me a few months back I'm not a True Animal Activist because I eat meat. I was so upset & hurt, it really bothered me, but then I thought who is this person think they are trying to tell people "who they are"? There No better......

Joan Mclaughlin (133) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 4:55 pm
Thanks Cate.I am not a vegan but I use more veggies than meat.We are all here to do good in one way or another.We shouldn't
condemn each other.Standing up for what you believe in doesn't mean hurting someone else in the process.I do believe that met was put on earth to feed us.Yet I don't believe it should be done cruelly.I am not a bad personor I wouldn't be here fighting for causes.Thanks Cate for starting this.I would never put down anyone 's beliefs.

Yvonne White (219) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 6:20 pm
I agree 100%. There is a world of difference in Factory Farms & real farms. I live in a rural area & nobody would treat their livestock cruelly - that would be sick & people DO know when someone is psychotic!

Dee C. (23) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 8:00 pm
A great blog Cate..I absolutely agree..however..I don't think it is so much one being a "vegan" but rather one being a fanatic..
I am a vegetarian..have been all of my life..For me it began as a very young child.. I was one of those rare people that could not tolerate and or digest any meat..So it just stuck with me..And as I grew older and out of it..well I still chose not to eat meat/poultry/fish..But I never have or would suggest to anyone ever that they should not eat it..It is a personal choice..Period..I am not better than anyone..for it..nor am I healthier than anyone..

I also raised my family as meat eaters..healthy of course..and allowing them always to choose for themselves as they grew..We raised our own turkeys..chickens..fresh eggs..home gardens..and any beef was purchased from a local cattle farmer who raised and treated his cattle as humanely as possible..

I also have friends and family who are both vegans and or vegetarians..and they certainly don't act like some I have seen here..I've only known one person in the face to face world who was the fanatical..obnoxious and intolerant better than thou kind..and she was like that with everything..It was a personal problem..is what I am saying..If you did not agree with whatever she was saying..she was flipping out..You had to just ignore her..much like you had to block the one going on in here..They just don't won't get it..nor will they shut up..

Cate you are so right in everything you wrote here..but I don't think it will change anyone who is that fanatical..intolerant or disrespectful..and or obnoxious..

And indeed they are when they act as they do..But its important to remember..not all are like that..And best you can do is just ignore them..
Thank goodness..its just a few..


Orlin Larsen (80) 		Sunday October 5, 2008, 10:46 pm
Im just like the many others who replyed to this discussion, I have had my deep seated eating habits since I was a little boy. My earliest thoughts were those of farm life.

Within the last 6 years I have altered my eating habits but I cant say I have changed them intirely.

There is no way Im going to stop eating eggs, or honey for two items of reason. I have slowed my meat intake considerably, because Ive found other genuine sourses of protein. I eat chicken, turkey, and in a lesser degree pork at least 1 time a week. And you can believe I have the common sense not to shop for those items in a supermarket.

My good sense of diet has changed my life around considerably and my ethics on staying healthy have now even began to amaze my self. In the same sense I have for once in my life set an example for my children like none before. And along the way I meet so many great people, with good ideas of their own.

Im not even replying to this subject to defend anything, because of course there is nothing for me to be defensive about. I just want to share some of my own positive natured news. In doing so I have really noticed just how much in common our intensions are really alike, from reading the many replys.

In recent weeks I have also noticed a attitude among a small group of vegans that has a taste of supremecy in strict response to their syle of choice. Every good natured facet of genuine living, certainly holds a small number of pointless votes. I just take that into consideration when the time comes to make its call

I think we are all on a generalized path in life that heads in the same direction. Of course the differences arent so great that it should upset the journey.

Happy Trails,
Orlin

Judith D. (12) 		Monday October 6, 2008, 5:59 am
I hate factory farms, but yes, I eat meat. I believe the animals should be treated with kindness while they live. Individual choice is important so why try to make others choose the way you do? This should apply to everyone.

Pauline Houzard (105) 		Monday October 6, 2008, 10:05 am
Vegans are the most boring people, I'm sick of them dictating to me what I should and should not eat! I respect there decision why can't they respect mine???

Dawn H. (102) 		Monday October 6, 2008, 11:18 am
I call them the "militant vegans". I too have gotten unsolicited messages, and unrelated comments posted by this group of miscreates too. I am "glad" I am not the only one being targeted by this vicious group. They must realize this negative activity does nothing to promote the Vegan lifestyle, but only serves to alienate and vilify the rest of the world who do not do what they want. In truth I am less likely to explore the Vegan lifestyle because of these folks' lack of tolerance and respect for all life. One's diet is not a good indicator on what kind of person is housed inside.

Thanks Cate --It is about time something was said about this behavior -- it really is not acceptable in the community.

Paul ABC (2) 		Monday October 6, 2008, 6:15 pm
Too much stereo typing and a lack of tolerance and understanding of others convictions here on both sides.
Firstly the Vegans;
I cant speak for individuals here but generaly many Vegans consider keeping animals to consume as very cruel,sadistic and immoral.In principal whether something has always been,doesnt necessary mean its always been right but could mean that its always been wrong!.I am talking about the domestication of animals as a source of protein for us humans of course.

Its true that although us lot in the first world are having to cut back due to world economic recession we are in population percentages getting fatter while two thirds of the rest of the world is suffering from starvation.Many people who choose to live without animal protein therefore do not consider being Vegan as a choice but in the belief that they can help reduce famine by not contributing to the meat industry.If the demand for meat would reduce,the amount of cereals,crops grown and fed to Livestock could be fed to those starving to death.So many Vegans see in meat eaters people who BY CHOICE help keep millions of starving people in the Third world.... starving....and helping indirectly to even kill them.

For many Vegans its not about choice and tolerance primary but about human decency,consideration and human compassion towards those who suffer because we CHOOSE to consume meat aswel as the standpoint that just because we have more brains it doesnt give us the right to USE animals,keeping them as slaves (whether happy slaves or unhappy slaves!)and mass produce them like....Campbells soup?.

The Meat industry is a bloody business theres no doubt.Organic meat farmers at least make the effort to treat their victims(!!?)nicely before a quick death.As I have said I am not a vegan and not even vegetarian but I can pathise and understand why they get upset and"over react"(?)We all have things/issues which we find terrible and sometimes even over react or even get perhaps verbally hostile about just like some Vegans will do and when we find the perpetrators i.e those who we believe are harming and being cruel to animals its not always easy to contain ourselves.I dont need to make examples.Now about Meat Eaters;Hindus I believe consider the Cow as a Holy animal and therefore treat the cows with great respect and certainly wont eat any cow meat.The Japanese traditionaly love to eat whale meat.The Chinese culinary attitudes I need not mention.Moslems I believe dont eat pig meat.So whats with us lot!!?.To eat cow meat we turn rainforests into grazing land(not even for crops to feed the hungry).We feed pigs more protien then we get out of them when they land on our plates.But most of all many consider it almost a decadent AND personal choice not to eat meat and cant tolerate the intolerance of those who believe we are helping others to suffer by eating meat."...Yes I choose not to live a lifestyle that contributes to the poverty and suffering of animals and humans a like..".Mmm well OK thats still a personal choice I must admit just like choosing not to buy Cat skin fur pillows or blue fox scarves(You know the ones with the little cute dried paws on the ends of the scarves or was it noses?!).

My point is every one and every one who has posted here a comment do decide for themselves what is reasonable behaviour or not and set their own limits down to regulate these ethics.Meat eaters and those inbetween like myself should understand and tolerate those who see their decision not as a choice to refrain from eating meat and not to contribute to the production of meat not but as a matter of humanitarian ethical conduct.And just like us when we sometimes feel our own values are being senselessly and brutally broken by others or we witness injustice and suffering,Vegans too can get emotionaly and even verbaly hostile.Guess we are all human in the end?.So lets tolerate those who dont tolerate us and not sear at those we complain about who we say are swearing about us!.Eating or not eating animals isnt a choice like eating or not eating donuts or not!.

Ken S. (38) 		Monday October 6, 2008, 7:48 pm
Y'know Cate, maybe they should start eating meat , they may become human again...lol I don't eat much meat....but it is easier for us single men, to have a more balanced diet by eating a little meat.
It is not only animals that should not be mistreated, there is much cruelty and neglect to children, women, workers, our indigenous brothers and sisters, those of different beliefs, politics and colour. We have much to learn.....but on this site, we do care2.....

Beth S. (12) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 10:29 am
Well said. There is no excuse for animal cruelty, and I am adamantly opposed to factory farming. But I know of dairy farms where the cows spend their days roaming where they will, and places where eggs come from chickens who hunt and peck to their heart's delight. This isn't cruel. Of course, this is the exception. I applaud anyone who can go vegan, but for all who can't or find it very difficult, just make sure you make cruelty-free choices. Yes, you pay a little more, but I believe it is our responsibility. Plus cruelty-free usually also means much healthier.

And for those vegans I have also seen bashing those who are not, take care you are not promoting cruelty in other ways, like going to a circus, or looking the other way when a neighbor's dog is chained without food or water.

We all have to do the best we can, and that means different strengths and weaknesses for each of us.

David Gould (155) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 2:20 pm
As a Diabetic I am advised by my doctor as to what is a balanced and good diet. It is up to me to practice that diet in a way that I feel is responsible to those that provide the food...including that which we grow here on our own land. I will not be dictated to by a bunch of "know-it-alls" that Know-Nothing of my way of life or the care I take of welfare of my food providers.

So Yes I agree Cate...we have no right to dictate to others the way in which they choose to live...advice is different if given in a spirit of kindness and caring. I like the coomment by BB k

Paul ABC (2) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 4:53 pm
In a time at least since the Global net we should by now be accustomed to seek basic information about that which we do and need to do in our everday lives let alone informing ourselves on basic global isues.Eating is one basic necessity.So before we simply respond and react to the basic emotional hostility of others who have strong convictions we should to be fair check out neutraly how such individuals get there in the first place.Just throwing mud back at the mud throwers belongs in the stone age with the cave men!(at least"BC PC"=before the global network!!).So in the sense of"learning to understand" though I cant represent Vegans I will though present some questions I believe represent some Vegan ethical beliefs like this one;

Is it cruel to kill animals and is it cruel to kill animals for our PERSONAL CHOICE to enable us to consume the meat of dead animals and therefore for our decadent convenience?.

Are there some animals which it is OK to kill and eat and some animals which it is not?.

Does it make it alright to kill animals for us to eat knowing the amount of protein in the resulting meat is less in protein then what the animal was given to eat!?.

Who decides which animals can be slaughtered knowing that two thirds of the world are starving to death(Including about 5 thousand kids under the age of 9yrs per day) when one third is feeding its livestock with grain to meet the decadent and over indulging meat eaters of the first world?.(thats us the"fat ones").
Heres my answer to that one;The scrupeless Meat industry.

The land used to craze Cattle and livestock could be reduced and more of it used to grow crops for the starving(remember the recent attempt to convince the consumer WE have a global food shortage and the fields of Rap Issue!!!!?)if more of us cut back or stopped eating meat.The first world is over indulging in our food habits and getting per person per population fatter.The rising demand for protein is and will of course be exploited by the industry.In simple terms;That means more fields and crops for meat for us and less for the rest causing more of them to die.These are the isues which many vegans in more detail have concluded.So for some Vegans when we eat meat especialy those who "cant get enough" we are contributing and indulging to help others suffer and die.These are the sources of their convictions and why they-just like us when we feel someones "choice"is causing mass suffering-may get angry at us.I am not a vegan but I can understand their reaction as I have also "my issues" like the mistreatment of cats and the cat fur industry in China(i.e breaches of human rights etc etc)Thats also my CHOICE to get involved with that.Lastly a ironic(?) question which Vegans and meat eaters should ask themselves alike;
Do animals have souls?.
A question I often have asked(and will ask) especially Christians when on the subject"Thou shall not kill"!!!.

Paul ABC (2) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 4:58 pm
In a time at least since the Global net we should by now be accustomed to seek basic information about that which we do and need to do in our everday lives let alone informing ourselves on basic global isues.Eating is one basic necessity.So before we simply respond and react to the basic emotional hostility of others who have strong convictions we should to be fair check out neutraly how such individuals get there in the first place.Just throwing mud back at the mud throwers belongs in the stone age with the cave men!(at least"BC PC"=before the global network!!).So in the sense of"learning to understand" though I cant represent Vegans I will though present some questions I believe represent some Vegan ethical beliefs like this one;

Is it cruel to kill animals and is it cruel to kill animals for our PERSONAL CHOICE to enable us to consume the meat of dead animals and therefore for our decadent convenience?.

Are there some animals which it is OK to kill and eat and some animals which it is not?.

Does it make it alright to kill animals for us to eat knowing the amount of protein in the resulting meat is less in protein then what the animal was given to eat!?.

Who decides which animals can be slaughtered knowing that two thirds of the world are starving to death(Including about 5 thousand kids under the age of 9yrs per day) when one third is feeding its livestock with grain to meet the decadent and over indulging meat eaters of the first world?.(thats us the"fat ones").
Heres my answer to that one;The scrupeless Meat industry.

The land used to craze Cattle and livestock could be reduced and more of it used to grow crops for the starving(remember the recent attempt to convince the consumer WE have a global food shortage and the fields of Rap Issue!!!!?)if more of us cut back or stopped eating meat.The first world is over indulging in our food habits and getting per person per population fatter.The rising demand for protein is and will of course be exploited by the industry.In simple terms;That means more fields and crops for meat for us and less for the rest causing more of them to die.These are the isues which many vegans in more detail have concluded.So for some Vegans when we eat meat especialy those who "cant get enough" we are contributing and indulging to help others suffer and die.These are the sources of their convictions and why they-just like us when we feel someones "choice"is causing mass suffering-may get angry at us.I am not a vegan but I can understand their reaction as I have also "my issues" like the mistreatment of cats and the cat fur industry in China(i.e breaches of human rights etc etc)Thats also my CHOICE to get involved with that.Lastly a ironic(?) question which Vegans and meat eaters should ask themselves alike;
Do animals have souls?.
A question I often have asked(and will ask) especially Christians when on the subject"Thou shall not kill"!!!.

Paul ABC (2) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 5:02 pm
Theres something very wrong with the engine of this page-I couldnt get away without being told by doing so the info before would be repeated.Sorry but therefore my comments are doubled!°.Hope I can paste this and get away without the same thing happening.

Deborah Hooper (59) 		Tuesday October 7, 2008, 8:49 pm
I agree, Cate. The most important thing you said here is the fact that these farm animals would not exist if they weren't raised for food. You do not want the set free either. Especially pigs which become feral again with in months if not weeks. Since the days when these animals were domesticated, their natural predators have mostly been eliminated.


Paul ABC (2) 		Wednesday October 8, 2008, 3:42 am
Its about the over produce and the amount of food fed to farm animals which could be used to feed the starving.So "these"farm animals can be reduced in numbers by a reduction in consumers demand.Farmers dont keep farm animals because they love animals they do it to earn a living.Some treat their animals well some dont but again is it OK to kill animals for food and if so which ones can we and which ones not?.Its no problem to alter the purpose of domesticated animals to meet the demand!.Keeping domesticated animals as slaves because they have been domesticated is a bit like saying that human slaves wouldnt be able to survive without their master!.The world is always in a state of evolution and adapts and can adapt to changes.

Paul ABC (2) 		Wednesday October 8, 2008, 1:10 pm
Often those who believe that its not "OK"to kill animals to consume are often Vegans(not primary a question of choice but of principal)and see the suffering we cause by contributing to the meat industry(also organic).So just like most of us here at Care2 who all have ideals and convictions which we stand up for one hundred pers cent and when its about cruelty and hurt then most of us will sometimes go over the borders of self control under certain circumstances.So in that sense be carefull "not to throw the first stone"folks!.

My conclusion after reading all the comments here is:No vegan can dictate only demand!.Just ignore the mud,dont throw it back and try to understand and respect other peoples convictions otherwise it will be like six of the one and half a dozen of the other!.Tolerate the intolerate and dont swear about the swearers!!.And thats my message to all Cate's fan club here!.

Lisa Gabriel (254) 		Thursday October 9, 2008, 9:37 am
It has always seemed odd to me that people who make a moral decision to become vegan, ostensibly for compassionate reasons, then show themselves to be lacking in compassion....

Lisa Gabriel (254) 		Thursday October 9, 2008, 9:53 am
Also.... I have read the arguments many, many times. I have little patience with the argument that keeping farm animals is cruel to the starving millions all the while governments stockpile and destroy food and, even worse, birth control is not used. The world belongs to ALL its inhabitants - not just humans - including the endangered species in land converted for farming crops (as well as animals!) All sorts of cruelty exists but anger doesn't stop it, it just jumps from person to person like sparks in a forest fire!

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem - the problem is belief that your cause justifies anger and violence....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IayFvLOi_Zc

Denise NotOnlineMuch (485) 		Thursday October 9, 2008, 2:59 pm
Thank you, Cate! I'm a vegetarian & it's people like you mentioned that give me a bad name. I'm sick of people getting nasty with me when I tell them I'm a vegetarian. And I know it's because they have dealt with veggi-nazis!

Denise NotOnlineMuch (485) 		Thursday October 9, 2008, 3:37 pm
Also, I know that we're meant to be omnivores...just look at our teeth! And this is a vegetarian saying this!

Paul ABC (2) 		Saturday October 11, 2008, 1:09 am
Veggie Nazis!? Why not Veggie Commies-why Veggie Nazis!?.Funny(not) to complain about certain nasty veggies by being nasty and calling them(!!?)them nazis but this highlights exactly one of my points.

"No patience".... for the starving as in meat eating contributing to world hunger!??What are people like that doing here at care2??(as in CARE TOO!!).Reducing the amount of meat consumed(reducing the DEMAND)or boycotting meat altogether is in principal the same in effect as with boycotting Chinese products or reducing the amount of Chinese products bought to help stop and/or reduce the amount of anti- Human,enviromental and animal hostility.Theres always some bad apples in the basket which is normal but to use these exceptions in such a way to smear the overall name of Veganism isnt on!.Stereo typing is also in the 21st century in full swing it seems.

If people condemn a whole group of innocent people because some individuals of that group have behaved out of line then its those people who condemn who are being even more nasty as they are discriminating and being nasty towards the innocent members of the group.So in this sense NO.... such vegans dont give other vegans a bad name but simply give anti social intolerant vegan haters more ammunition to throw some mud!.And as anti social people who behave anti socially cant smear and drag a good name through the dirt why let them strike?.

Lisa Gabriel (254) 		Saturday October 11, 2008, 4:35 am
Paul, you are exhibiting exactly the kind of lack of self control Cate is referring to. You jump to all sorts of conclusions about people you don't know and say in no mean terms that we don't belong at Care 2 simply because we have a different point of view. Your kind of radicalism is something I find highly distasteful. I always have, ever since I first encountered it in the 1970s. I have followed partial vegetarianism for years, veganism at one point, my ex-partner refuses to wear leather shoes... All that was for animal welfare reasons, not because we wanted a world populated only by humans and crops! The political vegan POV is sick and has little place on an environmentally conscious site. I AM FOR ANIMALS' RIGHTS TOO! I AM NOT HUMAN CENTRED TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL COMMON SENSE! I talk about birth control and responsibility but that doesn't mean I am not humanitarian. You should criticise governments, not Care 2 members, if you really want to make a difference rather than big waves in a small pond of friends who are here for networking.

Paul ABC (2) 		Saturday October 11, 2008, 11:32 am
i.e.
1)."...And I know it's because they have dealt with veggi-nazis.."!.
2)."...I have little patience with the argument that keeping farm animals is cruel to the starving millions all the while governments stockpile and destroy food...".

Paul ABC (2) 		Saturday October 11, 2008, 7:11 pm
And lastly:3)
Laetitia...You should criticise governments, not Care 2 members, if you really want to make a difference rather than big waves in a small pond of friends who are here for networking.."

JoanMarie C. (2) 		Friday October 17, 2008, 9:18 pm
I think maybe you shouldn't put all "vegans" in a category. It is quite rude to assume all of us vegans are against you. I in fact AM a vegan, AND was raised on a farm (A BEEF, LAMB, AND CHICKEN farm) all free range and organic, but yet I still made the choice just because I love animals and don't eat those I love. I sure do not think my parents are evil or bad people. HOWEVER, factory farmed animals don't have the luxury of grass beneath their feet and frolicking on acres of land as 'children'. They are raised for slaughter, if you can call it raised because they are barely older than babies when slaughtered, just pumped full of growth enhancing drugs. Most vegans "attack" the factory farming institutions by educating those that do not know the truth about what really goes on. Just let them know that you are one of the few who do. All vegans aren't out to attack you :) So please don't put every person that makes the life choice of being a vegan in a category of a "vegan" as though it is a race, we are not all the same and don't come from the same background or share the exact same views.

Author

RC deWinter
Author Tools:
Compose New Share
female, age 62, divorced
Middletown, CT, USA
RC'S SHARES
Oct
26
(1 comments  |  discussions )
    The New York Times reported that there is about to be a renaissance in the nuclear power industry. After 30 years with no new plants having been built in the US, there are proposals for 34 new nuclear power sites before the Nuclear...
Oct
23
(24 comments  |  discussions )
       I just watched the entire documentary Torturing Democracy. It is chilling, horrifying, and makes me, as an American trapped in the ugly web of this government's administration for the past 8 years, want to crawl into ...
Oct
19
(46 comments  |  discussions )
       I got up today, while it was still dark, at 5:30 AM, secure in (and distressed by) the knowledge that it was Monday and I had to get ready for work.      At 8 AM I cleaned up, put on a dress, put...
Oct
7
(5 comments  |  discussions )
There’s this stupid, pointless computer game that I waste a lot of time playing. You may know it – it’s called Bejeweled. The object of the game is to slide these brightly-colored, glittering “jewels” around on a square to m...


ads keep care2 free
SHARES FROM RC'S NETWORK
May
22
(1 comments  |  discussions )
Some Spanish lessons (algunas lecciones de Español)Don't worry, be happy! (No te preocupes, se feliz!)Hugs and blessings, (abrazos y bendiciones)Angeles
May
19
by Lisa G.
(0 comments  |  discussions )
The rich variety of music in the first Elizabethan age is something we can all enjoy today. Renaissance and Elizabethan music came in two categories - sacred and secular. Translate that as religious and fun! There were no conflicts between mods, rocke...
May
14
(0 comments  |  discussions )
Please be careful....A friend of mine sent me this information and I wanted share it to help us all be safe. Caringly, Stuart  http://www.snopes.com/cri me/warnings/bottlebomb.as p  PLEASE READ AND FORWARD. Ki...
(0 comments  |  discussions )
Ashley is our middle cat and only female.At 11:48 a.m. Thursday, 9 May 2013 in a valiant battle against agressive lung cancer, Ashley died at home.
May
13
(0 comments  |  discussions )
Joe Newby On Saturday, Terry M. Hestilow, a retired United States Army Captain from Fort Worth, Texas, posted a letter on Facebook that he wrote to Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, warning that the Department of Homeland Security is preparing to go to w...


ads keep care2 free
MORE MEMBER BLOGS
May 23
Blog: Feline Illness - FeLV and FIV by Donna W.
(0 comments  |  discussions ) — by Dr. Jane Bicks If your cat is the free-roaming, outdoorsy type who enjoys adventuring with other feline friends, then you should definitely check out the latest from Dr. Jane. In this post, she explores two potentially fatal diseases that have ... more
Blog: Pippa Middleton Attends Waitrose Summer Party In Peach Floral Dress by Rosette R.
(0 comments  |  discussions ) — sponkit.com sponkit.com Pippa Middleton attends the store’s summer bash at London’s Natural History Museum on Wednesday evening. The brunette beauty wears a lovely floral dress, which is created by Tabitha Webb. She matches her dress with... more
Blog: Can We Protect Against the Next Moore Tornado? by mark s.
(0 comments  |  discussions ) — The scenes of devastation in Moore, Okla., after a possibly 2-mile-wide tornado tore apart schools and homes on Monday (May 20) led to an inevitable question: Could anything have been done to save buildings and lives? more
Blog: Tornado Recovery: What Moore Can Learn from Joplin by mark s.
(0 comments  |  discussions ) — Monday's monster tornado in Moore, Okla., was a terrible reminder of nature's tremendous wrath for people in Joplin, Mo., a town also hit by one of the country's worst twisters. more
Blog: Duchess Kate Looks Blooming At Buckingham Palace Garden Party by Rosette R.
(0 comments  |  0 discussions ) — sponkit.com sponkit.com Duchess Kate attends the Queen’s annual tea party for second year at Buckingham Palace. The Duchess of Cambridge brightens up Buckingham Palace garden party in canary yellow coat, which is £1,285 Marella coa... more
 
Content and comments expressed here are the opinions of Care2 users and not necessarily that of Care2.com or its affiliates.
Copyright © 2013 Care2.com, inc. and its licensors. All rights reserved