July 3rd, 2008
You: Today, I’d like to finish up what we started last week – discussing the nutritional concerns and benefits of a vegetarian diet. We finished last week on the subject of protein, from there we move on to Iron.
You: Vegetarian diets typically contain similar levels of iron to non-vegetarian diets but this has lower bioavailability than iron from meat sources, and its absorption can be inhibited by other dietary constituents.
You: Vegetarian foods rich in iron include black beans, cashews, kidney beans, lentils, oatmeal, raisins, black-eyed peas, soybeans, many breakfast cereals, sunflower seeds, chickpeas, veggie burgers, tomato juice, tempeh, molasses, and whole-wheat bread. Vegan diets are usually higher in iron than vegetarian diets because dairy products are low in iron.
You: Any other 'favorite' sources of Iron?
sirhc DeSantis: kale?
Jana Kyomoon: guiness LOL
Lori Kohl: lol
Thomas Sadoul laughs
sirhc DeSantis: well yeah that too
Compulse Beck: hehe
You: Iron stores are lower in vegetarians than non-vegetarians and iron deficiency is thus more common in vegetarian and vegan women and children (adult males are rarely iron deficient), but iron deficiency anemia is rare.
Jana Kyomoon: lots and lots of greens the darker the better
You: yes, and they don't come much darker than spinach, I know.
Lori Kohl: vitamin pills with iron
Bonnie Diggs: agree lori
You: yes.
You: OK..another concern to most everybody..especially young and then older is calcium
You: Calcium intake in vegetarians is similar to non-vegetarians. Some impaired bone mineralization has been attached to Vegans who don't consume enough leafy greens, which are sources of abundant calcium. However, this is not found in vegetarians
You: of course if one is vegan and has eliminated dairy products...then you're likely also looking for other supplements.
sirhc DeSantis: not really
Bonnie Diggs: thomas ... why would vegans not consume sufficient leafy greens?
sirhc DeSantis: don't know whats in them - gelatine for example
sirhc DeSantis: because we are as lazy as anyone else
Thomas Sadoul laughs
sirhc DeSantis: no time to cook
Lori Kohl: I s gelatin bad for you?
sirhc DeSantis: its animal derived
Jana Kyomoon: it is form cow bones
You: could be.. I was just thinking that as a vegetarian, I often find myself grabbing cheese to snack on.
Lori Kohl: ewww
Lori Kohl: I didn't know that
Jana Kyomoon: it is the jelly
Jana Kyomoon: gelly . .
Jana Kyomoon: in the bones
Compulse Beck: I always thought it was made from horse hooves
sirhc DeSantis: sometimes
sirhc DeSantis: depends on what the slaughter houses are processing
Compulse Beck: ahh
Lori Kohl: Jello is made from a derivitive of cow bones?
Jana Kyomoon: it definitely used to be
Lori Kohl: it's the same gelatin?
sirhc DeSantis: it is
Jana Kyomoon: but recently they have been using a vgetarian product
sirhc DeSantis: agar agar among them
Jana Kyomoon: you have to be very careful to look @ the ingredients
Lori Kohl: ooh that's better I hope they arereally using a veggie product
Lori Kohl: goodpoint Jana
Jana Kyomoon: they put so many vitimans etc in a gelatin caplet
sirhc DeSantis: agar is - condensed seawater from what i can make out
You: hmm..that's true Jana
You: I guess somewhat related to calcium...at least from so many peoples view is vitamin D
You: Vitamin D levels do not appear to be lower in vegetarians (although studies have shown that much of the general population is deficient). Vitamin D needs can be met via the human body's own generation upon sufficient and sensible UV sun exposure.
Bonnie Diggs: From Google: Gelatin is a protein produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen extracted from the bones, connective tissues, organs, and some intestines of animals such as the domesticated cattle, and horses.
sirhc DeSantis: that can be a problem here in the north
You: Thanks Bonnie...that pretty much covers it.
You: Vitamin D, Sirhc?
sirhc DeSantis: yes
Lori Kohl: it's a protein
Lori Kohl: Thanks Bonnie
sirhc DeSantis: i try to be outside for 30 minutes a day even in dead midwinter
Thomas Sadoul smiles...I have no problem getting enough sunlight down here 
Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - it is hard not to be outside 30 minutes a day! lol
Compulse Beck: I'm so pale, if I went outside at noon sharp I would cause a infernal reaction that would backfire and blow up the sun
sirhc DeSantis: its ok with plenty of snow - seems t oincrease the level
You:
You: Products including milk, soy milk and cereal grains may be fortified to provide a good source of Vitamin D and mushrooms provide over 2700 IU per serving (approx. 3 oz or 1/2 cup) of vitamin D2, if exposed to just 5 minutes of UV light after being harvested. For those who don't get adequate sun exposure and/or food sources, Vitamin D supplementation may be necessary.
Compulse Beck: But I take a good dose of vit D each week in pill form
You: I was actually surprised to learn that it could be a concern....I guess I always drank so much 'fortified' milk and was out in the sun long enough to never give it a second thought.
You: So, I know vegetarians sometimes make this choice for 'health' reasons...or that my friends thought I did for those reasons....leading to a the subject of longevity.
You: A 1999 metastudy compared six major studies from western countries. The study found that the mortality ratio was the lowest in fish eaters (0.82) followed by vegetarians (0.84) and occasional meat eaters (0.84), and was then followed by regular meat eaters (1.0) and vegan (1.0). When the study made its best estimate of mortality ratio with confounding factors considered the mortality ratio for vegetarians was found to be (0.94).
sirhc DeSantis: ah yes - are we experimenting too much
You: experimenting?
sirhc DeSantis: with our health
Jana Kyomoon: yes i agree . .now everyone is an expert
Jana Kyomoon: mainly due to the internet
You: oh, true...or just not able to keep up with everything we put into our bodies.
sirhc DeSantis: vegan was that bad?
Jana Kyomoon: every week someone is telling me some new diet or supplement
Bonnie Diggs: Thomas from what you said then we should be fish eaters?
Lori Kohl: I love fish
You: well, that was one study that is looking only at longevity.
Lori Kohl: fish oil is good for you.
sirhc DeSantis: you mean every vegan will die lol
Lori Kohl: haha!
You: If you have other reasons driving you then it might not be enough to convince you to eat fish
Thomas Sadoul laughs
Lori Kohl: should have a fish oil caplet once in a while maybewith gelatin in it lol
sirhc DeSantis: you see my point
You: In "Mortality in British vegetarians", it was concluded that "British vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population. Their death rates are similar to those of comparable non-vegetarians, suggesting that much of this benefit may be attributed to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as a low prevalence of smoking and a generally high socio-economic status, or to aspects of the diet other than the avoidance of meat and fish."
Lori Kohl: hi Saraya
sirhc DeSantis: hi saraya
Saraya Nightfire: hi, sorry for being late )) dont let me disrupt )
Thomas Sadoul smiles at Saraya ...welcome
Lori Kohl: happy you're here
Mysha Milland is Online
Saraya Nightfire: ty )
Lori Kohl: yvw
Bonnie Diggs: but thomas that study did not compare vegetarians to fish eaters - just to the general population.
Bonnie Diggs: I still say fish is good.
Lori Kohl: vegetarians came in 2nd in longevity.
You: What I got from that study was that the other factors were much more important in longevity than the diet as long as it was a nutricious diet.
Lori Kohl: vegans last
Jana Kyomoon: i think u have to go with a diet that makes u feel good .. i have been veggie 4 23 years and no problems . .most of the time vegan
sirhc DeSantis: well thats my goose cooked - as it were
Thomas Sadoul laughs
Lori Kohl: cooked goose! you? lol
sirhc DeSantis: i have done yes
Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc
Lori Kohl: lol
You: Statistical studies, such as comparing life expectancy with regional areas and local diets in Europe also have found life expectancy considerably greater in southern France, where a low meat, high plant Mediterranean diet is common, than northern France, where a diet with high meat content is more common.
Chat Range: Jovial Denimore [13m]
Jana Kyomoon: and don't forget the wine and olive oil!
You: yes
Lori Kohl: yes!
sirhc DeSantis: switched to olive oil years back
Lori Kohl: me too
You: ...I just can't figure out why they have to put bones in wine either...*shrugs*
Bonnie Diggs: so thomas you assume that "meat" includes fish?
Lori Kohl: andsometiems Canola oil
Jana Kyomoon: and fish too thomas
Bonnie Diggs: I am so partial to salmon... and veggies
Bonnie Diggs: ?
sirhc DeSantis: canola is alll gmo here
You: I still do, yes, Bonnie.
Bonnie Diggs: We have to check - because I think when they are talking about "meat" it is beef, pork, lamb and chicken.
You: And of course there are so many ways to analyze things but most all of those show that a vegetarian diet is not less healthy, and often more healthy than a non-vegetarian diet..
You: and diet choices are often made for other reasons besides nutritioin.
sirhc DeSantis: yes
Bonnie Diggs: I have not seen proof of that Thomas.
sirhc DeSantis: i've been inside slaughterhouses
You: You don't see proof that a vegetarian diet is as healthy as one without meat?
sirhc DeSantis: proof enough for me
Lori Kohl: me too
Bonnie Diggs: Meat meaning fish?
sirhc DeSantis: ever seen a facory ship?
Mysha Milland: A lot of vegetarioans are so because of ethical reasons, and any sentient being that we eat would be considered meat, a word used as a substitute and distraction from the actual once living creature
sirhc DeSantis: factory*
Lori Kohl: no what is that?
You: yes...and I know you're looking at the nutritional benefits pointed out about fish...
Lori Kohl: factory ship?
Bonnie Diggs: mysha agree with that point
sirhc DeSantis: its massive trawl nets and live processing of the catch until the hold is full
You: but we are rapicly depleting the oceans too.
Bonnie Diggs: but thomas was talking about health
Lori Kohl: I eat fish.
sirhc DeSantis: mental health too
Lori Kohl: From the study you reported on Thomas.. fish is good for you.
Bonnie Diggs: I think fish is very healthy.
Bonnie Diggs: and superior to veggies alone.
Jana Kyomoon: not when you've seen it glow in the dark
Lori Kohl: live porcessing? like cleaning teh fish on the ship?
You: Yes, it is good for you.
You: it is an easier way to get what your body does need.
Lori Kohl: glow in the dark!?
sirhc DeSantis: yes cleaning - gutting, scaling, picking out the dolphins
Saraya Nightfire: um, i wouldnt say its 'superior' to veggies alone. It really depends on the quality of the veggie diet
You: so, nutritionally, you are correct Bonnie.
Bonnie Diggs: farmed fish is out of the question ... except for some varieties
Jana Kyomoon: glow in the dark from radiation
sirhc DeSantis: well i do that
Lori Kohl: that's contaminated
Jana Kyomoon: really witnessed it in a cat dish
You: really?
Lori Kohl: poor cat
Bonnie Diggs: Jana - you eat cat? lol
Mysha Milland: Its interesting that we consider and give thought to whether any animals are healthy to eat.
Jana Kyomoon: i eat nothing that had eyes or a parent
sirhc DeSantis: my free range bantams were
Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - agree
Lori Kohl: I agree Saraya... the quality of the veggie diet deternmines if it's as good or better than veggie with fish diet
Bonnie Diggs: good life and a clean kill
sirhc DeSantis: and the geese i brought down on the estate
Jana Kyomoon: but that is only mY desicion because it works 4 me
Mysha Milland smiles
Lori Kohl: but Thomas gave info from a study... don't know which study but it said longer life
You: Ok..now on to Food Safety 
Lori Kohl: get off me ass****
Close Range: kayden Zapatero [22m]
Bonnie Diggs: Thomas ... you give up then? lol
Lori Kohl: It said longer life spans belonged to ppl that ate fish.
Lori Kohl: 2nd longestwasvegetarians.
Bonnie Diggs: lori - agree
You: No, I am happy to put the discussion out there.
sirhc DeSantis: ever seen a six foot tapeworm?
Bonnie Diggs: but on to food safety
Lori Kohl: omg that's too fross tothink about
You: I still feel that yes, nutrition has to be watched and maybe somethings are easier one way but we make choices on our values.
Lori Kohl: gross*
Bonnie Diggs: sirhc - do you saute them?
Jana Kyomoon: oh please . . .
Lori Kohl: -giggles-
Thomas Sadoul laughs...not tape worms but E. coli
CallieDel Boa is Offline
sirhc DeSantis: hahaha - no it was a fish market in Japan
Bonnie Diggs: I believe it sirhc
Lori Kohl: tapeworm was in the fish
sirhc DeSantis: beautiful looking tuna - riddled with them
Lori Kohl: poor fish
You: Vegetarianism is believed to reduce E. coli infections, and proponents point to the link between E.coli contaminations in food and industrial scale meat and dairy farms. The most recent E. coli outbreak in North America has once again demonstrated this link because the source of this E. coli was traced back to "a large ranch in the Salinas Valley that has a beef cattle operation" about a half-mile from the spinach fields where spinach became contaminated.
You: enough fish already
Bonnie Diggs: let us talk tomatoes
sirhc DeSantis: yeah that was scary
Bonnie Diggs: still a problem in NY City I understand
sirhc DeSantis: what still?
You: but the Tomato scare now is not E.Coli
Bonnie Diggs: but unhealthy - very much so
Absinthe Seurat is Offline
You: yes, Salmonella (spelling) does happen quite often...too much but not only to vegetables.
You: It seems that vegetables quite often get the rap for E.Coli when they are the victim and not the culprit.
Bonnie Diggs: My stores have pulled most tomatoes off the shelves? spinach - then tomatoes - then ?
You: but the big spinach scare was E. Coli...completely different.
Lori Kohl: The news reports said our tomatoes are ok
sirhc DeSantis: we have a potential disater here with pig farm runoff
Bonnie Diggs: they are not
Lori Kohl: (I like this song that's playing)
You: There are several variants of E. coli and they can be found in a healthy human gut, but the deadly strain, O157:H7 was virtually unheard of until the 1980s. It is believed that this strain evolved in the digestive system of grain fed cattle on large industrial farms. On these farms, grain is used as cattle feed because it is nutrient-packed and increases efficiency. A side effect of feeding grain to cattle is that it increases the acidity of their stomach — and it is in this acidic gut that the deadly O157:H7 thrives.
Bonnie Diggs: they said that and then said - oh but people are still getting sick in the city - even with the smaller varieties.
You: E. Coli can be still acquired from any excrement-contaminated food or human commensal bacteria. The recent case of spinach and onions with E. Coli contamination in the U.S. shows that vegetarian foods are also susceptible to food safety concerns
sirhc DeSantis: onions?
Bonnie Diggs: maybe not E.Coli - but if you ill, what difference does it make?
Lori Kohl: what should cattle eat? vegetables instead probably.
Lori Kohl: grass
sirhc DeSantis: cattle graze
Bonnie Diggs: backspacing
Bonnie Diggs: cattle can eat dead diseased meat? right?
Bonnie Diggs: or pigs
sirhc DeSantis: you know i can't give blood because of the bse thing?
Bonnie Diggs: cattle are not just fed grain and grass
sirhc DeSantis: yeah processed sheep
sirhc DeSantis: well they were
Lori Kohl: what's the bse thing?
You: but why should the Bonnie? of course they eat what we give them...but that is not their diet...it is just to fatten them up to be processed.
Bonnie Diggs: exactly
Lori Kohl: That's terrible
sirhc DeSantis: bovine spongieform encepuilitis
Jana Kyomoon: gotta run folks . .great chatting thanks
You: In 2005, some people who had consumed branded triple-washed, pre-packaged lettuce were infected with E.Coli, and in 2007, branded lettuce salad were recalled after they were found to be contaminated by E.Coli In fact E. coli outbreaks have also involved unpasteurized apple and orange juice, milk, alfalfa sprouts, and even water.
Bonnie Diggs: and if y ou don't eat meat then there is no worry
Lori Kohl: thanks sirhc
Saraya Nightfire: bye Jana, bright blessings )
Bonnie Diggs: back to the fish thomas
sirhc DeSantis: mad cow disease
You: yes, it is quite often runoff from ranches and factory farms that is contaminating vegetables, Bonnie, so it is a concern.
sirhc DeSantis: alfalfa sprouts - i avoid
You: In 2005, some people who had consumed branded triple-washed, pre-packaged lettuce were infected with E.Coli, and in 2007, branded lettuce salad were recalled after they were found to be contaminated by E.Coli In fact E. coli outbreaks have also involved unpasteurized apple and orange juice, milk, alfalfa sprouts, and even water.
Bonnie Diggs: yes I realize that thomas
Bonnie Diggs: runoff!
Lori Kohl: I used to eatc bean sprouts but not now after hearing about ecoli in some sprouts
Lori Kohl: eat*
Saraya Nightfire: this is scarey. I never realised E.Coli infected fruit and veg so frequently
sirhc DeSantis: i sometimes grow them at home
Lori Kohl: It's good to wa | 
