Transcript from weekly Vegetarina gathering at Avgi Isle - July 17th, 2007
[2008/07/17 17:07] Thomas Sadoul: Several weeks ago, when we started this gathering, I gave the people there an opportunity to say why they had decided to live a vegetarian lifestyle…and it is a lifestyle, not merely a ‘diet’ because it can affect so many choices beyond food and the way that people look at you. Today, I’d like to start delving a bit more deeply into these reasons.
[2008/07/17 17:07] Thomas Sadoul: Many are driven to vegetarianism for ‘ethical’ reasons. In fact, in western, more industrialized countries ethics may well be the most popular reason for going vegetarian.
[2008/07/17 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: Ethics and morality are so synonymous that one word is used to define the other.
[2008/07/17 17:08] sirhc DeSantis: erm i have to disagree
[2008/07/17 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: ok
[2008/07/17 17:09] Thomas Sadoul is listening
[2008/07/17 17:09] sirhc DeSantis: morality(personal) can orerride societal ethics
[2008/07/17 17:09] sirhc DeSantis: or the other way round
[2008/07/17 17:10] Miralee Munro: I am happy to regard them as the same thing ...
[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: we have a choice
[2008/07/17 17:10] Bonnie Diggs: yes why do you disagree sirhc?
[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: you know my choice
[2008/07/17 17:10] Bonnie Diggs: very interesting?
[2008/07/17 17:10] Thomas Sadoul: I see your point Sirhc...but societal ethics and my ethics are different...
[2008/07/17 17:10] sirhc DeSantis: because i live in the richest society ever
[2008/07/17 17:11] Miralee Munro: rich in monetary terms sirhc?
[2008/07/17 17:11] Thomas Sadoul: BUT I will agree that when I was looking at this, some of the definitions of 'ethics' did refer to groups where as that was missing from 'morality'
[2008/07/17 17:11] Miralee Munro: but not necessarily rich in spiritual terms
[2008/07/17 17:12] Thomas Sadoul: A popular phrase in US politics (and likely others) over the last few years is that morality can’t be legislated because we are all raised in different circumstances with varying influences to establish our moral values to which we go on through life further developing or perhaps undoing our morality. Society does try to establish basic moral standards but they certainly don’t cover all circumstances you’ll face in your lifetime
[2008/07/17 17:12] Bonnie Diggs: I never agree with THomas but this time I do. he has said: 17:08] Thomas Sadoul: Ethics and morality are so synonymous that one word is used to define the other.
[2008/07/17 17:12] sirhc DeSantis is Offline
[2008/07/17 17:13] Thomas Sadoul: oops...Sirhc crashed, I think..must have been the shock of you agreeing with me lol
[2008/07/17 17:13] Saraya Nightfire: lol
[2008/07/17 17:13] Cheebs Furkel: lol
[2008/07/17 17:13] Bonnie Diggs: I aree this time.
[2008/07/17 17:13] Miralee Munro: lol
[2008/07/17 17:13] Thomas Sadoul: Various ethical reasons have been suggested for choosing vegetarianism. It has been argued, for example, that the production, slaughtering, and consumption of meat or animal products is unethical. Reasons for this include a belief in animal rights, an aversion to inflicting pain or harm on other beings, or a belief that the unnecessary killing of other animals is inherently wrong
[2008/07/17 17:14] Cheebs Furkel: i'm just gonna read the conversation until i feel like saying something smart lol
[2008/07/17 17:14] Thomas Sadoul: oh, that's fine Cheebs
[2008/07/17 17:14] Thomas Sadoul: One might also argue that although production and consumption of meat may be acceptable, the methods utilized in the commercial industry are unethical. Ethical vegetarianism has become more popular after the spread of factory farming.
[2008/07/17 17:15] Thomas Sadoul wonders how many people could actually see the life and death conditions of the approximately 100 million pigs, 37 million cows are raised and slaughtered in the US alone every year….or more than 20 million chickens are slaughtered every single day and think it is morally, or ethically right.
[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: I've always thought that if you don't have the 'stomach' to kill an animal yourself ... then you shouldn't eat it.
[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: But so many of us are quite prepared to abdicate our responsibility for 'feeding ourselves' and let others do the killing for us.
[2008/07/17 17:16] Miralee Munro: Including me, I might add.
[2008/07/17 17:16] sirhc DeSantis is Online
[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: I know that some of my friends or co-workers will tell me that they were raised on a farm and that I have no idea of what is going on.
[2008/07/17 17:17] Saraya Nightfire: wb sirhc )
[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: ...yet they were raised on a family farm...saw a calf born and raised it themself...and have no idea of what the conditions are at factory farms.
[2008/07/17 17:17] Cheebs Furkel: wb sirhc
[2008/07/17 17:17] Thomas Sadoul: wb Sirhc
[2008/07/17 17:17] sirhc DeSantis: sorry - system exploded
[2008/07/17 17:17] Cheebs Furkel: are you all vegetarians?
[2008/07/17 17:17] Miralee Munro: No, I'm not ...
[2008/07/17 17:18] Miralee Munro: although I was many years ago for about seven years.
[2008/07/17 17:18] Saraya Nightfire: i am
[2008/07/17 17:18] sirhc DeSantis: well define it cheebs
[2008/07/17 17:18] Thomas Sadoul: I am...for 4 years now...but yes, sirhc knows there are lots of definitions
[2008/07/17 17:18] Saraya Nightfire: thats a point sirhc. different types
[2008/07/17 17:18] Cheebs Furkel: i was a vegetarian for about a week and then i just needed my beef. weak eh
[2008/07/17 17:18] sirhc DeSantis: no not weak - you tried
[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: I find that it's TEXTURE than I look for ...
[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: that I look for
[2008/07/17 17:19] sirhc DeSantis: yep
[2008/07/17 17:19] Thomas Sadoul: that is true....even trying is a huge step, I think.
[2008/07/17 17:19] sirhc DeSantis: being aware
[2008/07/17 17:19] Miralee Munro: When I was vegetarian ... I didn't miss meat at all.
[2008/07/17 17:19] Cheebs Furkel: this may be a dumb question hehe just curious but..
[2008/07/17 17:19] Saraya Nightfire: just considering the issues involved is a major step
[2008/07/17 17:20] Thomas Sadoul: please go ahead Cheebs
[2008/07/17 17:20] Cheebs Furkel: would you eat meat if they killed the animals in a more ethical way?
[2008/07/17 17:20] Miralee Munro: If you had to kill the animal yourself Cheebs, I think you would think differently.
[2008/07/17 17:20] Thomas Sadoul: I would not now, Cheebs.
[2008/07/17 17:20] Saraya Nightfire: well, i wouldnt, but cant speak for anyone else
[2008/07/17 17:20] sirhc DeSantis: cheebs i hunted and i did kill
[2008/07/17 17:20] Cheebs Furkel: yes but that is because we are so far from nature at these times
[2008/07/17 17:21] sirhc DeSantis: this is one that will run and run
[2008/07/17 17:21] Thomas Sadoul: I think that the first time I saw my father kill a deer is when I began losing my taste for meat.
[2008/07/17 17:21] Miralee Munro: Maybe the answer is to get back to a more natural way ... if each of us were responsible for actually getting our own food (from nature) rather than the supermarket.
[2008/07/17 17:21] Thomas Sadoul: everything else came from the freezer at the store.
[2008/07/17 17:22] Thomas Sadoul: The US Department of Agriculture estimates that 10 Billion animals are killed annually for human consumption in the US alone. That doesn’t even consider the number of aquatic animal killed for human consumption but estimates are in the range of 17 billion in the US without consideration of incidental by-catch – marine or bird life that gets caught up in the process but never makes it to the dinner table.
[2008/07/17 17:22] sirhc DeSantis: miralee - we all live in trees?
[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: No ...
[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: but we are so remote from the natural world now.
[2008/07/17 17:22] Saraya Nightfire: i would happily live in a tree....
[2008/07/17 17:22] Miralee Munro: so dis-connected
[2008/07/17 17:23] sirhc DeSantis: shes right
[2008/07/17 17:23] Cheebs Furkel: yes that's what i mean miralee, i dont think its right to say i'd probably think differently if i had to kill it myself.. i dont need it to survive
[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: I think we are at a crossroads ...
[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: we can either go the way of letting multi nationals feed us
[2008/07/17 17:23] Miralee Munro: or we can be responsible for our own food production.
[2008/07/17 17:23] sirhc DeSantis: i'm vegan for the stupidest reason
[2008/07/17 17:24] Miralee Munro: What is that sirhc?
[2008/07/17 17:24] Thomas Sadoul agrees with Miralee
[2008/07/17 17:24] sirhc DeSantis: monkey curious
[2008/07/17 17:24] Thomas Sadoul laughs...and how long have you been curious now, Sirhc?
[2008/07/17 17:24] sirhc DeSantis: theres more now
[2008/07/17 17:25] Miralee Munro: My partner is aiming for a vegan diet .... but I don't see anything wrong with getting milk from a cow or honey from a bee.
[2008/07/17 17:25] Bonnie Diggs: thomas I told you that when I was a restauant, the fisheman were bringing in fish - that were instantly killed, felleted and sold to the neighbors,
[2008/07/17 17:25] Thomas Sadoul: I guess that comes back to how dairy cows are treated in my mind Miralee..
[2008/07/17 17:25] sirhc DeSantis: milk from a cow i will argue. honey - well thats stillunder debate
[2008/07/17 17:26] Thomas Sadoul: Some are treated horribly to increase their production of milk.
[2008/07/17 17:26] sirhc DeSantis: veal
[2008/07/17 17:26] Miralee Munro: I'm thinking along more personal lines ... small production ... family / community
[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: no problem - i kept chickens
[2008/07/17 17:27] Racky Congrejo is Offline
[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: and killed them and dressed tem
[2008/07/17 17:27] Thomas Sadoul: yes, I think there is room for smaller operations like that..where the cows may well live a better life than they might in the wild.
[2008/07/17 17:27] sirhc DeSantis: wild cows?
[2008/07/17 17:28] Thomas Sadoul: exactly my point Sirhc
[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: I think it's an honourable thing to do ... kill your own meat ... if you can do it ... I know that that would a terrible dilemma for me ... even if I was starving ...
[2008/07/17 17:28] Racky Congrejo is Online
[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: I've seen wild cows
[2008/07/17 17:28] sirhc DeSantis: yes but at least its honest
[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: living in a remote area of Cape York in Australia
[2008/07/17 17:28] Thomas Sadoul: they are near defensless and were never intended to exist in the number they do in captivity.
[2008/07/17 17:28] Miralee Munro: they'd been abandoned there many years ago
[2008/07/17 17:29] Saraya Nightfire: and they have adapted to living wild ok?
[2008/07/17 17:29] Miralee Munro: Yes ...
[2008/07/17 17:29] sirhc DeSantis: i propose an informal vote
[2008/07/17 17:29] Thomas Sadoul: ok
[2008/07/17 17:30] sirhc DeSantis: who thinks food grows in supermarkets?
[2008/07/17 17:30] Miralee Munro: lol
[2008/07/17 17:30] Cheebs Furkel: lol
[2008/07/17 17:30] Thomas Sadoul laughs
[2008/07/17 17:30] Miralee Munro: I would say a lot of kids do.
[2008/07/17 17:30] Cheebs Furkel: doesnt it? :\
[2008/07/17 17:30] Thomas Sadoul: is it unanimous?
[2008/07/17 17:31] sirhc DeSantis: no vote tallied lol
[2008/07/17 17:31] Thomas Sadoul: oh, everybody raise your hands so Sirhc can count
[2008/07/17 17:31] Thomas Sadoul sees Saraya sort of raise hers...
[2008/07/17 17:31] sirhc DeSantis: theres a vote anim?
[2008/07/17 17:31] Miralee Munro: you could use Hey gesture ...
[2008/07/17 17:32] sirhc DeSantis: Hey!
[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: Hey!
[2008/07/17 17:32] sirhc DeSantis: oops voted against my proposal
[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: it works lol
[2008/07/17 17:32] Thomas Sadoul: oh never mind lol
[2008/07/17 17:33] Thomas Sadoul: OK Bonnie, I heard you..and yes I remember you saying that but it really is not the 'norm' . For example, Shrimp fisheries are the worst with 80 – 90% of the marine life (in weight) being drug from the ocean bottom considered by-catch and waste.
[2008/07/17 17:34] Bonnie Diggs: oh god
[2008/07/17 17:34] Miralee Munro: I don't know whether it's possible to put the genie back into the bottle ... for us to turn our backs on large scale farming/fishing production methods.
[2008/07/17 17:34] Saraya Nightfire: its probably difficult with the large population of humans
[2008/07/17 17:34] Thomas Sadoul: Others are less deadly but there really isn't enough fish to keep feeding an increasing human population either.
[2008/07/17 17:34] sirhc DeSantis: how much of the world will you accept starving?
[2008/07/17 17:34] Miralee Munro: We are working harder/faster/longer to pay for a lifestyle that's not beneficial to us.
[2008/07/17 17:35] Miralee Munro: What happened to us being self-sufficient?
[2008/07/17 17:35] Miralee Munro: Growing our own food?
[2008/07/17 17:35] sirhc DeSantis: we lost
[2008/07/17 17:36] Thomas Sadoul: yes, we got caught up in 'improving' our lives and lost track of the basics, I think.
[2008/07/17 17:36] sirhc DeSantis: i have a freezer full - and if the power goes?
[2008/07/17 17:36] Miralee Munro: Mmmmm ...
[2008/07/17 17:36] Miralee Munro: We've now become dependent upon a lifestyle that isn't sustainable.
[2008/07/17 17:37] Miralee Munro: We can't look after ourselves any more.
[2008/07/17 17:37] sirhc DeSantis: thats not quite true
[2008/07/17 17:37] Miralee Munro: (or at least it's far more difficult to)
[2008/07/17 17:37] Cheebs Furkel: well we're on our way to become useless i think.. all machines
[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: As I said ... people use up all their time working for someone else to get enough money to buy food (from someone else)
[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: The way we live our lives.
[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: I don't know that many people are really living the lives they WANT to live.
[2008/07/17 17:38] Thomas Sadoul: Sometimes Cheebs, I think we are less feeling..less empythatic with what is happening around us and how we treat others...but then you look back in history and we've always been violent, as a race.
[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: they are living lives they HAVE to.
[2008/07/17 17:38] sirhc DeSantis: until this year i grew 35% of our food
[2008/07/17 17:38] Miralee Munro: Well done sirhc!
[2008/07/17 17:38] Thomas Sadoul: as a species, I mean.
[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: species? again define
[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: humans
[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: sorry, I didn't mean to alienate you lol
[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: there are people in the Sudan getting by
[2008/07/17 17:39] Thomas Sadoul: true....
[2008/07/17 17:39] sirhc DeSantis: and thats a shit hole
[2008/07/17 17:39] Miralee Munro: Yes, but is 'getting by' the kind of life they want to lead?
[2008/07/17 17:40] Miralee Munro: and how are they 'getting by' ... with how much support from others?
[2008/07/17 17:40] sirhc DeSantis: is it yours?
[2008/07/17 17:40] Thomas Sadoul: I think most of us would not be happy with that lifestyle...but then we excess on the other end.
[2008/07/17 17:40] Thomas Sadoul: so, many of us anyway.
[2008/07/17 17:41] sirhc DeSantis: i gave up ease of shopping - that was easy
[2008/07/17 17:41] Miralee Munro: I'm not in a life or death situation sirhc.
[2008/07/17 17:41] Cheebs Furkel: i may be wrong, english isnt my first language but i try lol; but are you saying people cannot live their lives on their own?
[2008/07/17 17:41] sirhc DeSantis: are you totally sure?
[2008/07/17 17:42] Miralee Munro: I have this idealistic notion of wondering what would happen if ALL of society's wealth was evenly divided between the world's adults ...
[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: cheebs we always did before
[2008/07/17 17:42] Thomas Sadoul: I think a huge percentage would panice if they had to suddenly, Cheebs
[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: good point
[2008/07/17 17:42] sirhc DeSantis: sorry Boss i shut up now
[2008/07/17 17:42] Thomas Sadoul laughs
[2008/07/17 17:43] Miralee Munro: sirhc ... I'm just curious ... are you a Gemini by any chance?
[2008/07/17 17:43] Cheebs Furkel: well as far as i know we have the nature to live in a group
[2008/07/17 17:43] sirhc DeSantis: hardcore Capricoen - Goat and proud
[2008/07/17 17:43] Miralee Munro: lol
[2008/07/17 17:44] Thomas Sadoul: hmm..not Leo? I should be shocked.
[2008/07/17 17:44] Thomas Sadoul: There are also non-animal rights arguments to promote vegetarianism. Global warming is one key issue for environmental vegetarians. According to a study done by the University of, switching from a meat-eating diet to vegetarianism reduces one carbon footprint by 1.4 times the amount of switching from a Toyota Camry to a Hybrid car.
[2008/07/17 17:44] FLY Saintlouis is Offline
[2008/07/17 17:45] Miralee Munro: This is a relatively new phenomenon (I think) ... this consideration of what impact our actions have on the planet.
[2008/07/17 17:45] Thomas Sadoul: I think it is gaining more of a foothold.
[2008/07/17 17:45] Miralee Munro: Which is a good thing
[2008/07/17 17:45] sirhc DeSantis: across the board i a gree
[2008/07/17 17:46] Miralee Munro: In the past, farmers, industrialists etc., just did what they wanted to do and expected Planet Earth to suck it up.
[2008/07/17 17:46] Thomas Sadoul: I remember an environmtal class 15 years ago in which we discussed the affects of animals on the climate.
[2008/07/17 17:46] Bonnie Diggs: thomas sorry I am not a global warming advocatle
[2008/07/17 17:46] Miralee Munro: But shouldn't we all tread more gently on the earth anyway Bonnie?
[2008/07/17 17:46] Bonnie Diggs: I almost crashed here
[2008/07/17 17:46] sirhc DeSantis: advocattle i love it
[2008/07/17 17:46] Thomas Sadoul smiles...a whole other class, Bonnie
[2008/07/17 17:47] Bonnie Diggs: advocate
[2008/07/17 17:47] Thomas Sadoul: ..but it is something that many are becoming so much more aware of.
[2008/07/17 17:47] Bonnie Diggs: smack you sirch
[2008/07/17 17:47] Bangle Huet is Online
[2008/07/17 17:47] Thomas Sadoul: This is because of the vast amount of methane that is put into the air from overbreeding for consumption, methane being a 32% more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Shipment of the grain and the cattle itself also plays a part in this issue, being that it takes 8 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of meat
[2008/07/17 17:47] sirhc DeSantis: ok so how many should we cull
[2008/07/17 17:47] Mysha Milland is Offline
[2008/07/17 17:47] Hayduke Ebisu is Online
[2008/07/17 17:48] Mysha Milland is Online
[2008/07/17 17:48] Bonnie Diggs: Sirhc - I do not believe in global warming.
[2008/07/17 17:48] Bonnie Diggs: K?
[2008/07/17 17:48] Thomas Sadoul: That is always something that stuck with me...that cattle need up to 10 lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat. People could be eating the grains instead of feeding cows to kill them.
[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: I wonder what the animals would be saying if they could contribute to this debate?
[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: We make decisions for these animals.
[2008/07/17 17:48] Miralee Munro: What if they had a vote?
[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: interesting point T
[2008/07/17 17:49] Miralee Munro: Yes ... far more logical.
[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: yes yes yes
[2008/07/17 17:49] Miralee Munro: In the bad old days ... there were some people who didn't think that negroes were human or aborigines ...
[2008/07/17 17:49] sirhc DeSantis: bonnie chan i know - but just asking. 50% 75% 95%?
[2008/07/17 17:49] Bonnie Diggs: no more slaughter
[2008/07/17 17:50] Thomas Sadoul is scratching his head on Sirhc's question
[2008/07/17 17:50] sirhc DeSantis: and where should we have this cull
[2008/07/17 17:50] Bonnie Diggs: I agred 100% - except for the clean kills I have witnessed
[2008/07/17 17:51] Miralee Munro: That reminds me of something some 'government official' said after that horrible tsunami a few years ago ... "It's just natural attrition" ...
[2008/07/17 17:51] sirhc DeSantis: we are too many
[2008/07/17 17:51] Miralee Munro: easy to say when it's not YOUR baby who has been swept out of your arms into the sea!
[2008/07/17 17:51] Thomas Sadoul: and all of that is assuming, in my mind Bonnie, that killing anything for our own pleasure or comfort is right. I don't accept that..clean or not.
[2008/07/17 17:51] Bonnie Diggs: The fish - caught in front of me and instanly killed
[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: Yes I agree Thomas ...
[2008/07/17 17:52] sirhc DeSantis: i volunteer
[2008/07/17 17:52] Thomas Sadoul: and that would make my mother feel better to know I was instantly killed in front of her..rather than tortured.
[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: what if it was YOUR relative?
[2008/07/17 17:52] Bonnie Diggs: and filete for the people waiting on the docks for fresh food
[2008/07/17 17:52] Miralee Munro: lol
[2008/07/17 17:52] enchanted Dagostino is Online
[2008/07/17 17:52] Mac Illios is Offline
[2008/07/17 17:53] Bonnie Diggs: YES T
[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: I am gradually working my way back to being a vegetarian ...
[2008/07/17 17:53] Bonnie Diggs: not tortured
[2008/07/17 17:53] Thomas Sadoul: don't think my mom would care though...
[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: I just have to keep reminding myself that another sentient being's life is being taken just so I can have a tasty snakc.
[2008/07/17 17:53] Miralee Munro: snack
[2008/07/17 17:54] sirhc DeSantis: no Bonnie shoot me in the back of the head. then compost me
[2008/07/17 17:54] Thomas Sadoul laughs
[2008/07/17 17:54] Miralee Munro: Bonnie, have you ever killed anything yourself?
[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: problem is OUR socieity it horribly hurting the cows
[2008/07/17 17:54] Miralee Munro: Our society is you and me Bonnie.
[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: Sickening
[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: yes
[2008/07/17 17:54] Bonnie Diggs: I do eat beef
[2008/07/17 17:55] Bonnie Diggs: nor prok
[2008/07/17 17:55] Miralee Munro: What kind of meat uyou eat is kinda irrelevant ...
[2008/07/17 17:55] Thomas Sadoul thinks you meant to say "don't eat beef"
[2008/07/17 17:55] Mac Illios is Online
[2008/07/17 17:55] Thomas Sadoul: that's true Miralee...
[2008/07/17 17:56] Miralee Munro: Bonnie .... have you? Have you ever killed an animal yourself?
[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: i have
[2008/07/17 17:56] Miralee Munro: I've killed a fish.
[2008/07/17 17:56] Bonnie Diggs: I have things on TV that are so horrifying - pushing the half dead cows with machines - off onto the side
[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: geese
[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: chickens
[2008/07/17 17:56] Saraya Nightfire: there isnt actually any need to eat animals. There is no dietary necessity. All the nutrients can be obtained from other sources
[2008/07/17 17:56] sirhc DeSantis: rabbits
[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: miralee - you can kill and eat a fish
[2008/07/17 17:57] Thomas Sadoul took the first fish I caught to bed with me..in a sleeping bag....and a raccoon crawled in and stole it.
[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: I can't see any good reason why an animal should sacrifice its life, just so I can have the sensory experience of eating that texture.
[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: I do not that that its the same thing
[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: Yes ... I CAN kill a fish, but have no great desire to.
[2008/07/17 17:57] Bonnie Diggs: thomas - I thought I loved you
[2008/07/17 17:57] Thomas Sadoul laughs
[2008/07/17 17:57] Miralee Munro: lol Thomas!
[2008/07/17 17:58] Miralee Munro: Why did you take the fish to bed?
[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: I don't know, I was young...it was the first one I had caught...and of course, I had been taught that was a good thing then.
[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: it was a prize I guess...
[2008/07/17 17:58] sirhc DeSantis: where else if you are vegan? fish always go to bed
[2008/07/17 17:58] Thomas Sadoul: we do that, value something dead more than alive.
[2008/07/17 17:59] Thomas Sadoul: ..and that's a sorry statement, I think.
[2008/07/17 17:59] Bonnie Diggs: t - a real sicko
[2008/07/17 17:59] sirhc DeSantis: explain
[2008/07/17 17:59] Saraya Nightfire: when its dead, we dont have to feel responsible, therefore we can allow some feeling
[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: Isn't the halal way of killing ... at least you apologise to the animal, and thank it for giving up its life so that you can eat?
[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: There's a kind of morality (and politeness) about that!
[2008/07/17 18:00] Bonnie Diggs: thomas - i live on the ocean and I cannot tell you what I have to
[2008/07/17 18:00] Bonnie Diggs: listento
[2008/07/17 18:00] sirhc DeSantis: ok but you still slaughter
[2008/07/17 18:00] Thomas Sadoul: yes, that's true Miralee...society does sometimes try to justify or apologize for it's actions.
[2008/07/17 18:00] Miralee Munro: Yes ... but what is 'nature's way' ....
[2008/07/17 18:01] Miralee Munro: If people have a 'desire' for meat, does that mean it's natural?
[2008/07/17 18:01] Bonnie Diggs: men BIG MEN bring up baby sharks and throw them into carbage pails
[2008/07/17 18:01] sirhc DeSantis: live in a tree
[2008/07/17 18:01] Thomas Sadoul: and I'm glad you brought that up because we're out of time here but next week, I want to get into the view of vegetarianism from different religions.
[2008/07/17 18:01] sirhc DeSantis: and yes eat raw m3eat
[2008/07/17 18:01] Bonnie Diggs: If I WERE three they would be back into the ocean!
[2008/07/17 18:02] Miralee Munro: Very good discussion Thomas ... I've enjoyed it a lot.
[2008/07/17 18:02] Thomas Sadoul: Thank you Miralee. Thanks to everybody.
[2008/07/17 18:02] Bonnie Diggs: I enjoyed hearing Miralee especially.
[2008/07/17 18:02] Thomas Sadoul: it has been interesting, I think
[2008/07/17 18:02] Racky Congrejo is Offline
[2008/07/17 18:03] hanico Vella is Online
[2008/07/17 18:03] Bonnie Diggs: and sirhc - you are a funny man!
[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: Oh thank you Bonnie.
[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: Now I'd better go and do something with my day
[2008/07/17 18:03] Thomas Sadoul: yes, Sirhc and Bonnie alwyas try to keep me on my toes.
[2008/07/17 18:03] Bonnie Diggs: yw Miarlee and I hope we speak again.
[2008/07/17 18:03] Miralee Munro: I usually log off at 9am, but this was too good not to come to.
[2008/07/17 18:04] Thomas Sadoul: ok..nice meeting you Miralee. Hope to see you again
[2008/07/17 18:04] Thomas Sadoul: ..even if it's past 9am for you.
[2008/07/17 18:04] Miralee Munro: I don't know whether I'll be able to make it next week ... but I'll try.
Last night (Thursday, June 20th) was the first vegetarian class/discussion that I hosted at Avgi Isle in secondlife. I think it went well and hope to see more attending in the future *hint*. I'm posting the transcript below. If you're not familiar with SL, the chat is real time so it can sometimes be difficult to follow but a little effort will show that it was a worthy event.
Transcript: Ethical and Healthy Eating In A Modern World - June 19
Thomas Sadoul: ok, Welcome to the first installment of Ethical and Healthy Eating In A Modern World
Thomas Sadoul: When I was first asked to present a ‘class on vegetarianism’, I have to admit that although I was flattered to have been asked and a bit excited about doing this, it didn’t take to long before I wondering just what I could possibly teach about vegetarianism for one hour a week that would hold anybody’s interest
Thomas Sadoul: Actually a friend asked me that same question in a slightly different manner. Her response was: “Meat = bad…vegetables = good…class dismissed. Are you crazy?”
Thomas Sadoul: I laughed with her as she laughed at me….but it made me really think about what I could possibly present to practicing vegetarians that would keep their interest and those who are aspiring to become vegetarians or who are just curious about the subject.
Thomas Sadoul: What I do hear constantly from vegetarians is that they want to meet and exchange ideas and experiences with other vegetarians so I’d really like this gathering to keep that in mind and ensure that you feel free to speak up if you have a question or thought about the material. Open discussion is great and I only ask that we treat others courteously and respectfully even if you think they’re all wet
Thomas Sadoul: Being a child of the digital age as all of us here are, I ran to Wikipedia as a starting point from which to gather ideas and was really quite shocked to find such an abundance of information there
Thomas Sadoul: As you may know, Wikipedia is a community encyclopedia. Anybody can claim to be an expert and make contributions or edit out material provided by somebody else. As I read the article there, it became clear that the contributions had been made from those who had high regard for a vegetarian diet and by those who did not.
Thomas Sadoul: This seemed to me, an idea opportunity to learn from the work of others involved in a community project while keeping open and critical thinking minds of our own…to learn from the good and weed through any bad that might be lurking in the bushes.
Thomas Sadoul: So, I’d like to start by giving everybody the opportunity to share a piece of themselves with the others. I know the reasons for my interest in a vegetarian diet…and I used to assume that everybody had the same motivation but have since learned that we don’t all see things through the same glasses. In fact after reading the Wikipedia article, I realized I had no idea of the range of reasons that people choose a plant based diet.
sirhc DeSantis: well i did it as an experiment
sirhc DeSantis: i was mostly veg
Thomas Sadoul: How long did it or has it lasted for you?
TerryW McCallen: well i am not a vegitarian yet, but i can see the benifits in it.
sirhc DeSantis: i've been vegan four years
Thomas Sadoul: cool
Thomas Sadoul: I see Bonnie typing there so I don't want to interrupt her
Bonnie Diggs: I feel that I do not like the abuse of amimals......and never eat veal .. that was a start.
Thomas Sadoul: sure
Darminia Avalanche: Sorry but i will never be a vegitarian
Bonnie Diggs: Now giving up beef and maybe more
Thomas Sadoul: That's fine Darminia....I'm glad your here!
Thomas Sadoul: My conversion to a vegetarian diet happened nearly 4 years ago…though I had wanted to cut meat out of my diet for years before that and have had to compromise on occasion with my RL partner since then to avoid tension I created by making that decision. My decision was base primarily on a concern of cruelty to animals. Secondary concerns were environmental concerns about waste, overuse of cropland to grow grain for livestock rather than for people and political maneuvering and back room deals to sustain the industries that exist in this environment. My decision had nothing to do with a concern for my health or taste buds.
Thomas Sadoul: Ok, anybody else before I move on?
Darminia Avalanche: May i ask why is it that ppl think meet is so horride
Bonnie Diggs: Thomas .. I have seen horrible photos of cows being pushed off to the side with back hoes?
sirhc DeSantis: well i found the first 6 months rough - anger management problems
Rosalie Falworth: I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian, trying to become a vegan.
Bonnie Diggs: The animals that were sick but still edible.
Bonnie Diggs: sickening to me... I am sorry
Bonnie Diggs: Sorry Thomas
Thomas Sadoul: Yes, I've heard of that Bonnie...and know it happens. They might be edible but perhaps not at a grade acceptable to the business?
Darminia Avalanche: There farms that care for there stock
sirhc DeSantis: agrred
Thomas Sadoul: Yes, many do. ....and many are just there for the profit...
Thomas Sadoul: ok...I'll go on a bit and then we can discuss more later
Darminia Avalanche: so true Thomas
sirhc DeSantis: my major beef (sorry) is people think food grows in supermarkets
Thomas Sadoul: True...and people don't always know what 'vegetarian' means either
Thomas Sadoul: To begin, we need to define vegetarian because not only are many non-vegetarians confused ( I have had to explain that chicken and fish ARE meat) but even practicing vegetarians find themselves confused at first.
Thomas Sadoul: In the simplest definition, a vegetarianism diet is one that excludes all animal flesh and slaughter by-products.
sirhc DeSantis: nothing with a face
Thomas Sadoul nods
Thomas Sadoul: A more exact definition from the vegetarian society
Thomas Sadoul: A vegetarian is someone living on a diet of grains, pulses(legumes or beans), nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with or without the use of dairy products and eggs.
Thomas Sadoul: Though there are several variants of vegetarian diets, there likely are more reasons for choosing to maintain a vegetarian diet. Reasons may include morality, religion, culture, ethics, aesthetics, environment, society, politics, taste or health.
Rosalie Falworth: I've always wondered, how many of those that consider themselves vegetarian eat insects? I don't. I know some people who do.
Thomas Sadoul: Well, I think we'll see that there are several 'forms' of vegetarianism....
sirhc DeSantis: i had an issue with a local store over insect infestation
Darminia Avalanche: I was told eggs and diary products where not to be eaten
Thomas Sadoul: ...and insects are killed even when crops are harvested..
Thomas Sadoul: Yes Darminia...Vegans do not eat eggs and dairy products
Rosalie Falworth: That's true. I avoid eating red 40 though, because of the cochineal... but I guess some of it is unavoidable.
Bonnie Diggs: To me it is the abuse of animas that is the most upsetting ..
sirhc DeSantis: but its a choice - not a religion
Thomas Sadoul: and there is a sign behind Bonnie showing what is acceptable in the 4 major divisions
Bonnie Diggs: like veal .... but even more so ...
Thomas Sadoul: The three most common variants of the diet are Lacto-ovo-vegetarian, Lacto-vegetarian and Vegan.
Thomas Sadoul: Lacto-ovo-vegetarian. Eats both dairy products and eggs. This is the most common type of vegetarian diet
Thomas Sadoul: Lacto-vegetarian. Eats dairy products but not eggs.
Thomas Sadoul: Ovo-vegetarian : Eats eggs but not other dairy products
Thomas Sadoul: and Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.
sirhc DeSantis: well - tries
Thomas Sadoul smiles
Thomas Sadoul: yes, it is often a struggle...and many times it's difficult to know exactly what is in your food too.
Saraya Nightfire: the additives can be a minefield
Thomas Sadoul nods again
sirhc DeSantis: dyglicerides - i mean ??
Thomas Sadoul: Beyond those 4 main groups are several other variants....Other Vegetarian dietary practices include: Fruitarianism. Su vegetarianism, Macrobiotic diet, Natural hygiene, Dietary veganism and Freeganism.
Thomas Sadoul: really..and what are dyglicerides?
Bonnie Diggs: Interesting about "fetid vegetables"?
sirhc DeSantis: i have no idea but most of the bread here has them
Thomas Sadoul: …and then there are a handful of Semi-vegetarian diets which are held in contention by strict vegetarians, especially when the person practicing these semi-vegetarian diets claims to be vegetarian: Lessetarianism, Semi-vegetarianism, Pescetarianism, Pollotarianism, Flexitarianism
Aura Baar: thats alot of isms
Thomas Sadoul: it is
sirhc DeSantis: i never heard of these
Thomas Sadoul: and I think that is why there is so much confusion about what vegetarian means...
Rosalie Falworth: I've only heard of pescetarianism.
Bonnie Diggs: you've defined these but I am sure I know where you stand.
Rosalie Falworth: And diglicerides can be made from animals or vegetable oil by the way.
Thomas Sadoul: ...and I've seen people choosing these 'diets' but didn't know there was a name for them.
Bonnie Diggs: no flesh
Thomas Sadoul: Properly planned vegetarian diets have been found to satisfy the nutritional needs for all stages of life, and large-scale studies have shown vegetarianism to significantly lower risks of cancer, ischemic heart disease, and other diseases. However, planning is the key
Darminia Avalanche: I don,t study any of it so i,m not fremiller with it sorry
sirhc DeSantis: and vegans make better lovers
Thomas Sadoul: Darminia, just preparing for this has been a learning event for me...we're always learning
Thomas Sadoul laughs
Thomas Sadoul: Despite claims of health benefits, maintaining proper protein levels does take some effort and hopefully, together we will be able to help each other with that.
Darminia Avalanche: I,m not ferm. with that ether
sirhc DeSantis: i live on hummus and was surprised at the low protein level in chick peas
Bonnie Diggs: I truly believe that limiting intake of beef and maybe all "meats" is healthy.
Thomas Sadoul: That's great Sirhc...Next week, I hope to get more into the nutritional concerns ...
Darminia Avalanche: I guess u r saying i,m not a lover right
Rosalie Falworth: I make a nice tofu and vegetable stir fry
Bonnie Diggs: I am not sure how far to go ... and think I cannot give up fish.
sirhc DeSantis: like i said - its not a religion
Bonnie Diggs: and free-range poultry.
sirhc DeSantis: i used to keep chickens
Thomas Sadoul: well, Bonnie, I think you do what you feel most comfortable with and can't possibly live up to everybody else's standards one way or the other.
Bonnie Diggs: To me it is an abuse issue .. and partially a health issue
Saraya Nightfire: its maybe best to go as far as you are comfortable with. Its a personal thing
Rosalie Falworth: Ohh, there's really nice fake chicken, by smart choice I think. It's called smart strips. I don't miss chicken at all with that.
sirhc DeSantis: agreed saraya
Rosalie Falworth: It's still a choice issue, but you can always try some of the fakey products.
Thomas Sadoul: I have heard that is good Rosalie...but haven't tasted it.
Thomas Sadoul: Other stumbling blocks include the fact that many products one might expect to be animal-product free in fact are not.
Rosalie Falworth: I like it. A little too close to the taste of real chicken for me sometimes.
Thomas Sadoul: Many foods contain ingredients derived from the slaughter of animals. Gelatin is made from animal ligaments, tendons, and bones etc which have been boiled in water. It is often found in confectionery, low fat spreads and desserts, and other dairy products
sirhc DeSantis: yes i bought a trail mix that had honey in it
Saraya Nightfire: gelatine seems to turn up everywhere... sigh
Bonnie Diggs: I agree that it is a silly thing to go into the market and think that the chicken pieces got placed there magically.
Thomas Sadoul: ...and to me, once I decided it was an abuse issue, as Bonnie said, I don't really crave for chicken or steak...or whatever...
Thomas Sadoul: I get pictures of the suffering in my head and it turns my apetite off .
sirhc DeSantis: well the analogs make life easier
Bonnie Diggs: Who said recently that you should not be allowed to kill a beast ... until you killed one yourself.
Bonnie Diggs: A chicken?
sirhc DeSantis: confession - i have hunted and butchered
Bonnie Diggs: you have to have a license to eat one.. by hagving killed one.
Bonnie Diggs: The way my grandmother did...
Thomas Sadoul: I hunted with my dad until he finally killed a deer. Only he ate it and we never went again...to my relief.
Thomas Sadoul: And something that Vegans appreciate that I didn't know....Cheese is often made with rennet extracted from the stomach lining of slaughtered calves.
Vegetarian cheese is made with rennet from a microbial source.
Bonnie Diggs: Sorry I meant .. you should not be allowed to EAT a beast - until you have killed one.
Bonnie Diggs: even fishing is horrific.
sirhc DeSantis: casein
sirhc DeSantis: its in all the 'veggie' cheese here
Saraya Nightfire: bright blessings Darminia ))
Rosalie Falworth: It's not just vegans that know that I think... I knew that. O.O
Bonnie Diggs: Do we get enough protein by eating eggs, milk and by-products?
sirhc DeSantis: oh yes
Thomas Sadoul smiles...I'm still learning Rosalie
Rosalie Falworth: Definitely.
Bonnie Diggs: I seriously do not need beef.. pork .. and maybe now chicken?
Rosalie Falworth: The only thing you have to worry about really is vitamin B12, and that's only if you're vegan.
sirhc DeSantis: the whole 'incomplete protein' theory is dead
sirhc DeSantis: b12 - yes
Saraya Nightfire: well, theres actually different sorts of protein. Its about the ammino acids. I think theres 16 of them, and different proteins consist of different ammino acids
Thomas Sadoul: yes, this is great, you're getting right to where I was going next.
sirhc DeSantis: that is a worry
Thomas Sadoul: Despite popular opinion, the American Dietetic Association and the Dietitians of Cananda consider a properly planned (yes, I’m stressing this Vegetarian diet a healthy, viable diet that is capable of satisfying the nutrional needs for all stages of life.
Rosalie Falworth: 20 amino acids.
Saraya Nightfire: soya has all 16 i think
Rosalie Falworth: I think
Saraya Nightfire: ah, 20
Saraya Nightfire: lol, im not great at the science side
sirhc DeSantis: soya does - who likes tofu?
Rosalie Falworth: I like tofu.
Bonnie Diggs: I love tofu
Bonnie Diggs: sorry
sirhc DeSantis: i can't stand it
Rosalie Falworth: It has to be cooked right
Thomas Sadoul smiles...
Bonnie Diggs: Love it .. sauteed
Bonnie Diggs: nice texture
sirhc DeSantis: i had it once in china and it was divine
sirhc DeSantis: deep fried
Thomas Sadoul: ..and tempeh is a form of tofu is it not?
Rosalie Falworth: You have to remove all of the water from it, or it tastes nasty.
Rosalie Falworth: It's like tofu, but not the same
sirhc DeSantis: tempeh i can stomach
CallieDel Boa is Offline
Bonnie Diggs: rosalie .. it never tastes nasty.
Thomas Sadoul: OK
Saraya Nightfire: ive not heard of tempeh
Rosalie Falworth: It does. The kind packed in water. At least I don't like it. *~shrug~*
sirhc DeSantis: temph lettuce and tomato sandwich - heaven
sirhc DeSantis: a tlt
Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc
Bonnie Diggs: to me tofu is heaven
Bonnie Diggs: good mouth feel also
Saraya Nightfire: whats tempeh made from?
sirhc DeSantis: erm - i have some - hold on
Thomas Sadoul: I've also come to the conclusion that when I take out and ask for a bhudist dish from the local oriental place, they use tempesh quite a bit.
Rosalie Falworth: soybeans
Thomas Sadoul: Like tofu, it is made from Soy, Saraya.
Saraya Nightfire: ah, ty ))
Rosalie Falworth: it's fermented and packed into cake for. All soy bean
Rosalie Falworth: It's got more protein too
sirhc DeSantis: this one is soy millet brown rice and the culture
Thomas Sadoul: Soy is the magical plant...and most of it grown in the US goes to feed animals so they can be slaughtered...rather than going directly to people.
sirhc DeSantis: rhizopus
Saraya Nightfire: oh cool! I will search that out next time i shop
Bonnie Diggs: so we all love soy ... and we hate the abuse of animals. I think we are agreed... almost.. I still love fish
Thomas Sadoul smiles at Bonnie
Rosalie Falworth: You can always be a pescetarian. If you can't give up on fish.
sirhc DeSantis: well when i get the cat tuna i am still tempted
Bonnie Diggs: Thomas .. so what am I then?
Rosalie Falworth: Pescetarian.
Bonnie Diggs: lol sirhc .. you are very funny
Thomas Sadoul: yup...Rosalie is right
Bonnie Diggs: why would you feed your cat that food if you are against eating it yourself?
Rosalie Falworth: Sorry, if I get annoying or bossy then tell me to shut up
Rosalie Falworth: Taurin.
Bonnie Diggs: It is not logical
Rosalie Falworth: *Taurine
sirhc DeSantis: because cats can't survive a vegan diet
Rosalie Falworth: Cats can't make that amino acid
Rosalie Falworth: Dogs can be vegetarians,
Rosalie Falworth: but cats can't
sirhc DeSantis: yes
Bonnie Diggs: then perhaps we cannot sirhc?
Rosalie Falworth: Their retinas would detach from their eyeballs. O.O
Bonnie Diggs: If cats cannot?
sirhc DeSantis: rosalie is
Rosalie Falworth: No.
sirhc DeSantis: right
Thomas Sadoul smiles
Rosalie Falworth: We can synthesize that.
Bonnie Diggs: so would mine then
Rosalie Falworth: Cat's can't make taurine. But we can.
sirhc DeSantis: well i loll before as proof we can
Rosalie Falworth: And no, yours won't.
Bonnie Diggs: this is not right.
Rosalie Falworth: Dogs can do the same.
Bonnie Diggs: you believe what you want ... I love and will continue to eat fish .... but not farmed animals
Rosalie Falworth: It is right. It's just in their genetic make up to not be able to make taurine.
sirhc DeSantis: cats are built carnivores
Thomas Sadoul smiles OK...Aura is prodding me that I need to start wrapping this up
Rosalie Falworth: That's fine
Bonnie Diggs: Also will eat eggs and milk.
sirhc DeSantis: and cheese lol
Thomas Sadoul: I'd like to delve more into the nutritional aspect of being vegetarian next week. We'll discuss what essential minerals one needs to be most concerned about when eliminating meat from their diet...and how to ensure you're getting enough.
Saraya Nightfire: lol, ive been veggie for years but still eat free range eggs and cheese
Bonnie Diggs: but define "meat" thomas
Bonnie Diggs: lol
Bonnie Diggs: I think you did do that today.
Thomas Sadoul: Well, I think the early description of anything with a face fits very well
Bonnie Diggs: Thanks Thomas.
Thomas Sadoul: OK...this has been great everybody!..
Rosalie Falworth: Technically the dictionary has always defined meat as not including fish, but I still stick with the anything with a face definition.
Thomas Sadoul: I'm happy you could all make it but Aura is going to toss us out.
Rosalie Falworth: lol
sirhc DeSantis: shame
Saraya Nightfire: anything with a face, and also worms
sirhc DeSantis: was fun
Rosalie Falworth: Thank you for letting us be here Aura.
Rosalie Falworth: That too.
Bonnie Diggs: Thank you Aura.
Thomas Sadoul: We are going to try to do this every thursday
Saraya Nightfire: thank you Aura ))
sirhc DeSantis: thanks aura
Thomas Sadoul: So, I hope to see you all again
Saraya Nightfire: every thursday would be great!
Thomas Sadoul: and yes, ty Aura
Saraya Nightfire: and thank you Thomas ))
Aura Baar smiles
Bonnie Diggs: Thank you Thomas ... and goodnight to you also.
Thomas Sadoul thinks Aura is afk now
Bonnie Diggs: Bye everyone.
Aura Baar: yes Arbuthnot
Rosalie Falworth: Yeah, thanks Thomas.
Aura Baar: that is true
Thomas Sadoul: thank you all ! ..and you're welcome
Saraya Nightfire: bright blessings everyone )) c u next week )
With all of it's distractions, I continue to believe that Second Life (or some form of it) is the future of the internet and continue to hope that it will be used to benefit our daily lives.
Avgi Isle has long been one of my favorites because of the great people there and the effort they are putting forth. Today, I was asked to help, if but in a small way, in that effort and offer weekly sessions for vegetarians or aspiring vegetarians.
I'm not sure how well this will work out but hope to attract long-time vegetarians and vegans to share their experiences, foster friendships and to be a source of inspiration and help for those who might be interested for whatever reason.
I'm sure this can be an exciting opportunity...with the input and participation of others. If you have a secondlife.com account or don't but may be curious...consider checking this out. Contact me for more details as the schedule is set. ...or if you have other questions about secondlife.
...and check back here for updates as the plan unfolds
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