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My tiniest objections to "Jesus" concern those who worship the messenger but rather completely ignore the message.

In Judaism, by contrast, our Torah tells us that no messenger is greater than the Law -- for no miracle can validate any pretentious authority that contradicts Torah, nor may the people ratify messages, no matter how awesome the messenger seems to be.

Practically, this is the doctrine "Torah is not in Heaven" -- it is for the use of man, in forming and keeping community with others, primarily. You might call this religious community, if you recognize, under Torah, that religion and community are essentially inseparable -- the one is synonymous with the other.

In short, there is no "individualism", as such, that is sponsored in Torah. In such principle, then, "Christianity" will always be a denial of Torah. The Radical Paul showed this by saying "Torah is Dead." This is as shocking, to a Jew, as Nietzsche saying "God is Dead".

Torah is not dead, nor does is it a book of death, nor does it speak of afterlife. "It is for us, the Living, rather than the dead..." as A. Lincoln would phrase it.

Again, it is for US, not the SELF -- and hence, inner reality may exist, but what matters is the binding of the nature of man into the community of man --- perhaps, as all inclusively as possible.

Let the Tao of "Jesus" be what it may be, but if it leads not to good of the people, the kind of Path marked in Torah, it matters nothing, this inner self.

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Donald L

My apology for the delay in posting.

Your insight concerning the dilemma facing mankind is well stated. My personal life experiences have with few exceptions been substantiated by a self evidence that is innate in all as a new born. Sadly that self evidence is taken away by supposed well intentioned but ignorant people.

Perhaps that contributes to my visceral reaction to attempts by the lost to recruit others into their own self proclaimed righteous "Keys to the Kingdom" mutual admiration groups.

The search for reality is inside us.

Jesus Christ, "a mythical person" is a prime example of this and his sayings applied to the inner us, reveal themselves as being valid.

The search for reality is inside us, not out there where we are directed to look for it by the lost ones.

Your mileage may vary

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Thank you, Raymond.

I am very much a believer in the idea that we make our emotional reality, whatever the physical one may be.

What I abhor is the idea that the physical one necessitates the emotional one. Spirit, if you will, is free to be what it chooses to be. Hence, I regard Deepak's commentary to be highly misguided and greatly misleading. He seems to assume, quite wrongly, if so, that there is an independent spiritual universe, as it were -- but one common to us all, in some sense. Here, common means accessible to each, in somewhat the same sense of "place" or "thing".

In principle I reject this premise. For example, my pain is not your pain, nor is my joy yours. Yes, we may each, from time to time, both experience pain or joy -- but that does not constitute pain or joy as a common place or thing -- as an absolute reality of a kind.

Rather, what such emotions mark out is that our bodies have experiences and also develops interpretations of those experiences. We learn the language of communicating inner experiences from one another. And, we may foolishly fall into the trap of reification, of thinking of pain or joy as a thing or a place. But, they remain only processes unfolding only in lived time -- there is no nirvana wherein they might "dwell" out there.

The foolishness of man, though, clings to such childishness -- needing heavens and hells, satans and gods, and all such mythologisms. Some people grow up, but they are few.

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Apparently the word count is in error. So will post clipped section.


"Ignorance is curable, stupidity is cultivated"

Hmm, with all this space, a few more.

"If the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded."

": Noah Webster - (1758-1843) American patriot and scholar, author of the 1806 edition of the dictionary that bears his name, the first dictionary of American English usage.

"The aim of military training is not just to prepare men for battle, but to make them long for it."
- Louis Simpson

"The foundation of all Mental Illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering."
Carl Jung

"The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim".

Gustave Le Bon;"The Crowd"

"It is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough, in the face of opposition to stand up for it."

: A. A. Hodge

"The essence of immorality is the tendency to make an exception of myself".

: Jane Addams

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Hi Donald,
Your well defined response to my metaphor is acceptable for its intent and merit.

It's intent was to focus thoughtful attention to a singular group of thought police who falsely assume authority and not as a general statement for all echo's from the past.

Our familial heritage (an echo) is a valuable asset and an individual treasure that should not be questioned or made minimal by others in any but a constructive manner.

I also am an admirer of quotes and saying, the ability to place in brevity form what others often fail to accomplish with an entire book in their attempt to express insights and contribute them for the benefit of all others is a gift to be admired.

Here are two of my recent favorites.

"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they either cease being mistaken or they cease being honest!"
- Anonymous

"None are more blind than those that refuse to see."

The difficulty is to separate our emotions from our intellect, two totally different functions of our thought process. An emotional response is often immediate and in error, where an intellectual decision has to compare the various factors involved and may on occasion fail to achieve any conclusion but is beneficial to us by our realization that we lack true knowledge to make a decision.

Any one posting on the web also has the ability to use Google and access more than ample resources to substantiate our posts.

"Ignorance is curable, stupidity is

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I liked your response, Raymond.

I picture matters slightly differently, though.

The past is but a glue on which the future is yet unstuck.

The trick, of being alive, is how to apply the glue -- preserving freedom.

Some people apply so much glue that the future is merely a mindless repetition (your echo).

Others apply so little that chaos ensues.
(Or, perhaps they sniff the glue instead of applying it!)

So, unlike with your echo metaphor, I believe firmly that we are modifiers of the world we live in -- sometimes somewhat echoing our common learning in commonly learned ways -- and sometimes somewhat offering what we personally (individually) seem to have uniquely learned in newly minted sayings.

If we teach only what our parents taught us, we fall into the dust of history, failing to adapt. If we teach nothing that our parents taught us, we foolishly throw away all that they learned, all that they saved up as treasures for us.

In short, the present is the dual moment of the eternal paradox between freedom and responsibility -- of free will. of our choices that make (or break) us.

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THOSE COMMENTING BEWARE OF RAYMOND AND DONALD L.
In my estimation they like to quarrel.

My first thought was to just ignore this comment. But after reconsideration I decided to reveal Dwight B for what he is.

An echo is or can be a pleasant experience. We are able to play with the effect and enjoy it to the fullest for a moment in time. Then it is time to move on with our lives, and experience other encounters afforded us by our existence in a mysterious and ever revealing world.

As children we are aware of our lack of comprehension to fully understand everything we encounter and look to the BIG people for guidance, our family first, then others as our world becomes more encompassing.

Eventually we will encounter what may be called a stupefied person, someone hypnotically captured by the echo's from the past, produced by persons unknown for reasons even lesser known.

Having been possessed by the echo it becomes their world and to maintain the illusion they assume authority and kinship to the creators of said echo's.

Their ability to reproduce the echo's in other locations becomes a practiced art in reproduction, little time is wasted in understanding the echo, reproduction is the primary goal.

Any inquiry concerning said echo's is not tolerated, acceptance only is mandated. And the reason for this is that they themselves do not know what the echo's mean.

Why would anyone do this you may ask yourself?

Please do so....

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I won't speak for Raymond, Dwight --
but the whole point of blogging is to "prowl around" --
and "to find someone who will lend them an ear..."

And, another word for quarrel,
without the divisive semantics your choice of terms imposes,
is just honest debate,
an exploration of differences in ideas and conceptions,
aimed at understanding one another better,
aimed at accepting the genuineness of differences,
and, perhaps, promoting the good, seeking the better.

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You're right - Heaven does help those who help themselves, and indeed, words are just empty words unless they are accompanied by actions. Helping ourselves is great, helping others is noble. So, come to think of it all - i dont have any interest in idle talk or vain arguments. I have plenty to do as it is, so please excuse my leave of absence. Thank you.

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