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NATO War Crimes In Libya Exposed


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: THE WILL OF MEGA CORPORATIONS, destruction, abuse, congress, corruption, ethics, cover-up, propaganda )

Barbara
- 1181 days ago - rense.com
In the current NATO war on Libya, the citizens of European and North American NATO countries are being treated to the largest propaganda blitz by their governments in cahoots with corporate media outlets since the U.S.-led invasions and occupation of



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Comments

Just Carole (338)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 3:58 pm

Thanks, Barbara!

From the article:

"Obama's order to kill Qaddafi is reminiscent of George W. Bush's order to kill Sadaam Hussein at the outset of the U.S. war against Iraq, an assassination order that was also a violation of international and U.S. law."

The same is also true of the alleged targeted assassination of Osama bin Laden. We are either (Obama's words) "a nation of laws . . ." or we're not! (And apparently, the American people, while applauding the alleged demise of bin Laden, have now given their tacit approval to ignore international laws and treaties to which we are a party, on the singular judgment of the sitting president (even bypassing our own Constitution, which gives Congress the ability to declare war).

From a recent press release issued by Dennis Kucinich:

NATO Does Not Declare U.S. War, Determine U.S. Policy

Washington D.C. (June 2, 2011) – As Congress sits poised to consider H. Con. Res. 51, Congressman Dennis Kucinich’s (D-OH) bill to end the war in Libya, Kucinich today sent the following letter to Members of Congress:

"Yesterday, NATO announced it would continue combat operations in Libya for at least another 90 days. NATO. The President went to NATO on Libya, not the U.S. Congress, as the Constitution requires. The U.S. has thus far provided 93% of the cruise missiles, 66% of the personnel, 50% of the ships and 50% of the planes at an estimated cost of up to $700 million and now NATO says the war will go another 90 days. Since when does NATO trump the Constitution of the United States? It is time, in the name of the people of the United States, that Congress insist that the President obey the Constitution and the statutes concerning war powers.

Last week, I introduced H.Con.Res.51, a bipartisan resolution that disapproves of U.S. military operations in Libya and requires the President to withdraw U.S. Armed Forces from participation in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) mission in the country within 15 days after passage. I support my colleague Rep. Turner’s resolution which disapproves of U.S. military operations in Libya because I believe that it is the minimum that Congress must do to challenge the unconstitutional war in Libya. Yet as the war in Libya surpasses the 60 day mark with no end in sight, it is clear that Congress must do more than just express its disapproval.

Article 1, Section 8 provides only Congress with the ability to declare war or authorize the use of military force. The War Powers Act allows a narrow exemption from the Constitutional requirement by allowing the President to take the U.S. to war without Congressional approval in the face of an “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” We have now been involved in a war on Libya for over 72 days with no constitutionally required authorization for the use of military force or declaration of war.

The President recently submitted a letter to Congress about the war in Libya arguing that he was not required to come to Congress for authorization because the war is not really a war. Really.

While we may not all agree on the merits of military intervention in Libya, we can all agree that Congress must have the opportunity to have a full and ample debate on the commitment of U.S. Armed Forces to a war abroad. This institution cannot stand by idly as a war of choice with significant ramifications for our national and economic security is waged without Congress fulfilling its responsibilities under the Constitution. We must defend the Constitution of the United States.

Sincerely,
/s/
Dennis J. Kucinich
Member of Congress"

[end quote]


 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 3:59 pm

Are we a democratic republic . . . or operating under a dictatorship?

 

Barbara W. (342)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 4:23 pm
Corporateplutocrats. Entities which are so self centered they cant see, nor care2 see, the damage they're causing to the world of the natural environment which even they need to exist! This pernicious mentality clashes with every living thing that gets in it's way. The disease of gr$$d at it's very core..!
 

Barbara W. (342)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 5:04 pm
Carole I am beginning to wonder how many Americans understand what it means to be an American. What do "We" really stand for? Do we care 2 be there for the least of these or would we rather critize, find fault with, so we don't have to be accountable! Right on Jae!
 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 5:12 pm

I sometimes wonder if most Americans realize the importance of governing this country in accordance with its Constitution . . . or even if they've read and understand it.

Time after time, I've commented on or posted articles regarding the violation of certain rights, but been told that I'm exaggerating. I, personally, question how that's possible. Either an action disobeys a provision of the Bill of Rights, or it doesn't.

Each member of our Executive, Judicial and Legislative branches took an oath to uphold the Constitution . . . and yet, when they don't, NOTHING is done about it!

 

Sandra T. (126)
Sunday June 5, 2011, 10:23 pm
Thank you so much, dear Barbara, another great eye opening article. Just, wonderful and wise comments, thank you! :)

Would be interesting to make a survey and ask each American citizen, what in fact is written in the constitution and how they interpret it.

Ignorance is mankinds greatest enemy!
 

Judith K. (93)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:13 am
Thanks for this one, Barbara. In the very beginning too many jumped on the bandwagon of protecting civilians and swallowed the lies of the presstitutes. This war has nothing to do with humanitarian actions. Fascism arrived while the nation watched Dancing with the stars.
 

Dandelion G. (386)
Monday June 6, 2011, 7:26 am
Could not have said it better Judith. Jae right on, Carole as astute as ever, thanks Barbara for your informative information. It sickened me the moment I heard we were launching cruise missiles into Libya, I don't care as to what guise they want to use, we are part of NATO, it's humanitarian, blah blah blah.

I could see it coming and now I read things like there is a major fresh water aquafer under Libya, which in dry Countries is better than gold. I haven't had more time to more thoroughly check into that, but it sure doesn't surprise me......resources......that is what it is all about.

I was calling and writing Congress.......but guess what......Dictator Obama, oh, I mean President Obama didn't even go to Congress. Well imagine that, and as far as I know only Dennis Kucinich had the balls to call him on it.

So you are correct Carole when you ask: Are we a democratic republic . . . or operating under a dictatorship?

While in Washington, Obama included, they were cutting back food help for children, Elders, Disabled, poor people, unemployed, while they are attacking the ability for the Elders and Disabled to have medical care, while they plead poverty so we can't help YOU the citizens of this Country, nor your children with decent educations, or the adults with living wage jobs, seize collective bargaining .........BUT....this Country can, with one phone call.......launched 112 Cruise Missiles on the first day at a mere $6000,000 a piece. That was the first day!

Calculate the math $600,000 x 112.........All the time they are shouting we are broke?

But we want to help those poor people over in Libya............

All the while stating to the American people we have no money to help YOU.....our own citizens Children
Or our continued forgotten First Nations people who die at the same age they do in Haiti

Think about it readers...........

What Country that is totally broke is going to spend $600,000 x 112 to help "poor strangers in some OTHER Country" because the USA feels badly for them..........

At the same time, allowing other human beings within it's own borders to go hungry, go without medical care, and tell them but we don't have the money to help our own citizens.....but we find lots of money to help others

How come our own Country, our own Leaders don't feel badly for us?

If that isn't a bunch of crock if I've ever heard then excuse me for living.........

WHERE ARE THE CRITICAL THINKERS IN AMERICA????????

Hello........Like that little Care2 yellow circle guy standing on the mountain top........IS ANYONE OUT THERE?

So pat Obama on the back, and the rest whine how misunderstood Bush was and point fingers at Clinton and elevate Reagan to some Sainthood status. They are all corrupt!!! Understand this. A Few are not, very few. So until the masses start getting a grip on this overall picture your spitting into the wind.

Democrats you should of called Obama on this. The Congress should of been flooded with calls, emails, snail mails, and people in the streets. As they should of been under Bush........and both Bush and now Obama enacted now keep the un-Patriotic Patriot Act in place. We still got Gitmo.

So we have the good cop bad cop.......but they are both cops. As long as we have the finger pointing going back and forth and back and forth we are like a ship at sea, rolling back and forth and back and forth and one day we are going to sink. No no not the Powerful and Rich; they will not will sink, you, the one reading this will if you are not near there already, for I'm sure to hell knowing they don't give a flip about Care2 nor you, nor your friends and family.

Sigh........

All we can keep doing is trying to stir the masses.........open the door, turn on the lights, pull back the shades.

THE MEASURE OF A MAN IS NOT WHERE HE STANDS IN MOMENTS OF COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE, BUT WHERE HE STANDS AT TIMES OF CHALLENGE AND CONTROVERSY. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.

A VERY GREAT VISION IS NEEDED AND THE MAN WHO HAS IT MUST FOLLOW IT AS THE EAGLE SEEKS THE DEEPEST BLUE OF THE SKY. TASUNKE WITKO CRAZY HORSE

THINK.........THINK........THINK.........THINK.........THINK.........THINIK........THINK..........THINK........THINK........
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 7:34 am

Kudos, Sheryl!

I can sense (and agree with) your vehemence. And, you're right . . . we need to "stir the masses!"

The apathy and inaction of the citizens is -- frighteningly -- indicative of their surrender.

 

Dandelion G. (386)
Monday June 6, 2011, 8:03 am
Surrender.......

Is exactly how it feels.

Is why I grabbed onto that story that Barbara first brought to my attention on the Dance Party by Adam Kokesh. I don't agree with everything he writes or states, but I do agree with his taking action, getting people to think, and get on their feet and do something. Abbie Hoffman same way, his actions caused a stir, but it did get the people into action, it stirred them into action.
 

Kit B. (276)
Monday June 6, 2011, 8:37 am

Surrender - acceptance. I don't know which. The fact is the end result is the same. One cannot be outraged by Gitmo or Abu Ghraib then accept our continued disregard of national sovereignty and human rights.
 

Amena Ravenwing (187)
Monday June 6, 2011, 8:47 am
"Time after time, I've commented on or posted articles regarding the violation of certain rights, but been told that I'm exaggerating. I, personally, question how that's possible. Either an action disobeys a provision of the Bill of Rights, or it doesn't. "

Perhaps it is laziness; it is easier to not read, not learn the truth, and not do anything to correct the wrongs. I believe that we Americans have become a very soft, self-indulgent, and lazy people. Except, now that we are losing our jobs, our homes, and the ability to feed ourselves, perhaps laziness will vanish to be replaced by the NEED to do something...or perish.
 

Amena Ravenwing (187)
Monday June 6, 2011, 8:57 am
Oh, and, my thanks to Barbara, Carole, ( and all who have commented) and the very special and wonderful Dennis Kucinich. He is a powerhouse of honesty, integrity, and all the other fine qualities completely missing in Washington.
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 8:58 am
Does anyone have a list of Ghadaffi human rights violations? Or are we only going to berate America for trying to stop them and NATO for trying to help the Libyan people? It is just so all one-sided and I'm not ready to hammer my country.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 9:39 am

Barbara, I think what you just said helps me to understand why many Americans are so reluctant to stop this military industrial complex.

First of all, this government knows that -- if they give an excuse for intervention that appears to be in defense of victims of tyranny -- most Americans will champion them. As such, that's the premise for ALL of these interventions (although the real reasons can be found with some scrutiny and following the money).

However, once the invasion/assault ensues (going far beyond any powers permitted under various international accords and the Constition), few Americans then double-check (having, of course, to go outside mainstream media to do so) to see what was the REAL outcome of that intervention.

It is a fact that, whenever there are air strikes (and, in fact, Obama has approved the use of drones in Libya), the majority of the casualties are civilians (mainly women and children). Calling these attacks as being from NATO is merely another act of subterfuge. NATO = U.S.

NATO war in Libya still run by America

"Now, with the US involved in the intervention, the US and the UN are supporting and fighting alongside the rebels – who are al-Qaeda, Escobar argued. It is all part of the agenda of global humanitarian imperialists.

“To sum it all up, it’s still an American war,” he argued. “NATO is basically the Pentagon.”

Escobar said NATO with UN authority takes American orders, no matter what. The Pentagon is still in charge. Even the commanding general, who is Canadian, will take orders from American, he argued.

“Nobody trusts the UN anymore,” he commented. “Everybody knows that NATO is the UN’s armed body.”

Moving forward, America’s new NATO branded war in Libya is just another American intervention under the guise of humanitarianism with an imperialist agenda."

The point here, however, is that -- no matter what the reason -- this country has a Constitution (designed with a system of checks and balances, giving no overwhelming power to ANY branch without oversight by the others . . . thereby ensuring no dictatorial empowerment) and our president has no authority to commit billions of taxpayer dollars without adhering to it.

 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 9:57 am
So what is being done about the Ghadaffi human rights violations against his own people? We know there are many deaths caused by his forces alone. I hate war, by the way, but I know that there is much we do not know and just because I'm not ready to take the word of one or two people who write up stories, such as Kucinich, doesn't mean they or he has all the info either, and what I can see is some exaggeration. Like I said, I'm not ready to slam my country without good reason. And trying to help the Libyan people is not a good enough reason for me. No war has been declared against Libya by the U.S. That makes a difference. However, we are a part of NATO, and many other countries are involved too. Many civilians have been killed by Ghadaffi, and I believe someone needs to stop this madman. Maybe there are people who don't care what happens to the Libyan people, but I think they should. Just my opinion, of course.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 10:26 am

Barbara K. -- If NATO (U.S. commanded) is guilty of war crimes; and if our (U.S.) involvement is in violation of our Constitution . . . what else does any American need to know?

We have (as is emphasized daily by the GOP) a growing deficit problem. We also have HUGE problems internally (unemployment, help for flood victims in Missouri and Mississippi River-bordering states . . . and the list goes on)!

BEFORE we commit to helping others, at the risk of our own children's lives, and breaking the backs of already over-burdened taxpayers, WE MUST HEAL OURSELVES!

One of the simplest, but most honest, phrases I learned in the 60's?

"Question authority."

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 10:29 am


"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad."
--James Madison

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 10:38 am
 
This . . . from a U.S. President, and former 5-star Army general, in his 1961 farewell address:
 
Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.
 
 
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 10:48 am
What are the provable war crimes committed by the U.S.? So far, our action is not unconstitutional. If I'm not mistaken, the President needs Congressional approval (and with all the Rs in there, he will get it) if he wants to DECLARE war on another country. He has no intention, according to his own speeches, of declaring war. We are, however a part of NATO, and they are trying to keep things to a minimum and help the Libyan PEOPLE, who are being slaughtered by Ghadaffi. Before America decided to help with this situation, countries around the world were calling for American help, as we have the best Air Force to knock out the military installations of Ghadaffi who was using them against his own people. Would it be right to turn our backs on the people who want out from under such a tyrannical regime and tyrant such as Ghadaffi? I want the other 2 wars stopped too. But the Rs in Congress just voted against the Dem Bill to defund Afghanistan just a few weeks ago. The Rs have many wealthy people getting richer every day off these wars. That should be a crime.
 

Jim Phillips (3209)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:02 am
Former U.S. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney Returns to Libya with DIGNITY Fact Finding Delegation of independent journalists.

NATO has announced it will continue the criminal bombing of Libya for another 90 days. The U.S. Congress has postponed any vote on President Obama’s obvious violation of the War Powers Act. In the face of this, Cynthia McKinney has returned to Libya with a fact finding delegation to meet with Libyans under attack by NATO’s bombs. She plans to bring back to the U.S. documented evidence of NATO war crimes.

PETITION:

http://iacenter.org/africa/mckinneylibyadelegation060211/

http://iacenter.org/africa/libyawarpowersact/

TY, C.
.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:03 am

Thanks, Jim!

(Can't send you a star yet.)

 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:14 am
I think it's odd that NATO would call their bombing "criminal". So there is no documented evidence yet of any war crimes? Interesting.
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:21 am
By the way, it is not American-led Nato act. France and Britain are leading the Nato action.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:28 am

Please give me your source for that "fact."

 

Michael Carney (209)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:32 am
Noted, thanks for the forward, Carole...All I know is that America are not the good guys in the white hats any longer...
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:46 am
It's been on the news for the past month or two, as well as in speeches in the Well of the Senate. In Obama's speeches, he said that we were taking the lead at first and then taking the back seat to Britain and France. I heard all these things for myself. I bet you would know where to look for yourself to verify these things, my friend.
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:50 am
Check out the South Bend Tribune, page A3, dated June 4, 2011, far right column of the newspaper; also check the same newspaper for May 29, page A3, far right column again. I have the newspapers themselves in front of me.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:51 am

Excuse me.

I gave sources for my accusations. I expect anyone who challenges me (calls me a liar) to do the same.

 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:55 am
According to my same local newspaper, dated April 9, 2011, page A3 again, far right column, last paragraph, it states "...... the United States relinquished direct command of Western military operations over Libya on March 31." I have all these and more local newspapers in my possession. Surprised you didn't find the same news in your local newspapers.
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:56 am
Sorry, I never called you or anyone else a "liar". I just posted some sources above and below your last statement.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 11:58 am
 
Obama turning Libya Over to NATO but the U.S. runs NATO...
 
"Obama said NATO will be taking over in Libya on Wednesday but, now the date has changed to Thursday.
 
The ironic thing about obama turning this over to NATO is, NATO is dominated by the U.S. militarily and politically… so really the U.S. will still be running the show,  just not directly …
 
The U.S. supplies 22 percent of NATO’s budget, almost as much as the next largest contributors Britain and France combined.
 
A three star general from Canada will be in charge of all NATO operation in Libya but his boss , is an American admiral and the American admirals boss is the Supreme Allied commander Europe , a post always held by an American…so bottom line, the U.S. the inevitable leader out of the gate will continue to be in demand."
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:01 pm

I advise anyone -- wanting real truth -- to look beyond mainstream media, which is owned by corporations, and as such, is a mouthpiece for them.

 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:07 pm
Here Me Nations whose leaders
are living off of American
tax dollars.

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations;
entangling alliances with none.

SO SAYS " THOMAS JEFFERSON"

"No more ignoring the law when it's inconvenient. That is not who we are. . . .
We will again set an example for the world that the law
is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers"
-- candidate Barack Obama, August 1, 2007

Barbara I think it's time "We" Americans clean our own corrupt house. Americans are losing because gr$$d is winning. Gr$$d comes in all shapes and sizes. The power brokers who wage war are the recipients of the vests flow of money, resources, etc.,. Libya and the land beyond Libya, in Africa, are resource rich. Gaddafi was going to the gold standard. France owes Gaddafi large sums of money and it was the French leader who opened this can of worms. America will continue this downward spiral if we look for excuses to defend rather then mend! We are not perfect and in recent years we have spiraled out of control. Innocence is imprisoned while Wall Street crooks are given a bail out. We have suffered a shell game. Bait and switch! Kucinich is the wisest of the wise. He reads bills before he signs them. He's a constitutionalist something President Obama seems to have no need of now that he's President. The power trip is a scary one! Few escape it's allure.

America has taken a big financial hit and many families are suffering the brunt of it! We should rename America to "Wars are US" Wars enrich those who don't fight them. Wars kill not only the body but the spirit and this action in Libya is nothing but a farce! Why not Bahrain where people are being murdered by their government? Why not Yemen? Why? Why ? Why? WHY interfere with the politics of another nation?

It's like our plan for Iraq. Help the Iraqis so they can become a democracy. Rid them of Saddam. Well we certainly rid them of Saddam and at least hundreds of thousands of their citizens. Many are disabled. Depleted Uranium the gift that will keep on giving IS even damage the health of our own serving in these places that "We" have violated.

I believe that Jefferson had it right and could foresee what would happen, much as Ike did, if war became an international game plan...And it has. America's power brokers have never seen a war they didn't like. War is killing the American economy while making US more enemies in the world. I can't stand bullies and I believe that "We", under the guise of being goody two shoes, have allowed the pernicious bullying mindset of the major corporatists to run illegal operations where ever they set up shop. EVEN HERE!

The Saudi's are far more abusive of their peoples and what have we done for years, turned a blind eye, deaf ear!. I had not one, but two
experiences which enlightened me some years back about what the Saudi's get away with. Pretty much, whatever they choose, less you have a friend in high places.. The truth IS stranger then fiction. Kucinich is right! Kucinich has the sort of Constitutional courage, knowledge and sense of decency I wish all Presidents and congressional folks had.

America's tax dollars, what else is new, are being used to fuel wars and conflicts all over the planet! Three war zones and counting. Iran being contemplated. Why? Resources. People are not the issue, gr$$d and those who seek empire are! Time that America's citizens, who are suppose to be THE GOVERNMENT, understand this delicate situation which "We" find ourselves in and, should never have gotten ourselves into.. The affairs of others!

These fools are on a self-serving quest! SO!
I "DARE" Say! No more of America's
precious cargo are to be sacrificed
for that which one founding father,
Jefferson,
warned US of!

Here Me Nations whose leaders
are living off of American
tax dollars.

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations;
entangling alliances with none.

SO SAYS " THOMAS JEFFERSON"

"WE" have created entanglements throughout the world that have damaged US! We've allowed corporations to woo gr$$dy partners/leaders to serve them in their dastardly agenda's. "We", the government of, by and for the people have become a farce. The games won't go away if we keep denying the blatant truth before US! I am not knocking my government. I am challenging those who are NOT & Have NOT lead US honestly.

(WORDS TO LIVE BY) WRITTEN WHEN MANKIND DESIRED FREEDOM
OVER WEALTH & UNDERSTOOD THE PRECIOUS GIFTS FREEDOM OFFERED!
LIFE, WITH LIBERTY, AND THE RIGHT TO PURSUE
HAPPINESS! RESPECT TOWARDS OTHERS!

I LOVE THE HEART of JEFFERSON

The illegal war in Libya

http://www.newsfrommiddleeast.com/?new=77868
 

Past Member (0)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:17 pm
Rather than correct America's course, Obama has chosen to acquire more war powers for the President. We should watch what they do and ignore what they say.
Seems they all "say" one thing and "do" another.
 

Dandelion G. (386)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:17 pm
Barbara, and I say all I'm going to say with due respect, for I do care about you and value a lot of what you say on Care2, but I don't feel any of us are bashing this Country, the United States of America, we are actually trying to point our that our Leaders have NOT been following the Constitution among other things it claims to hold high on it's list.

I find it to BE PATRIOTIC to point these things out for we have lived far too long under the premise of illlusion. The goodness of the American people has been abused and used to promote things that we do not want and yet it happens all the time. Thank goodness our Forefathers did leave us such noble words as what Carole presented from James Madison.

It is a wonderful thing to have the internet and be able to talk to people all over the world, I find when it comes to many things, that they being outside looking in see the picture more clearly than those who are living here. It is like being in the eye of a hurricane, it all looks like a good day when one is living in the eye, but outside of the eye all hell is going on.

Where in our Constitution does it state that we, the United States must be the saviour of the world? Gaddafi's has been in power for forty years and was terrorizing his people, why didn't we or NATO stop it 40 years ago, or 35 years ago, why did we let them suffer for 40 years? Same as Rwanda in 1994 when the mass genocide of 800,000 people took place, bodies being hacked into pieces and thrown into the rivers that ran red with their blood. Where were we then?

Why is it we help some and not others? Unless you can tell me why some people deserve our intervention and others do not then our being the "good" guy and helping these people doesn't fly with me. Darfur, how about them? Tibet isn't happy having China in their Country either. North Koreans are dying all the time, their leader plays with the food and causes mass starvations.

We can't have a pick and choose military to be the Police of the World, that is NOT what our military was to do. I have no qualms helping people, like we did in Haiti after their earthquake, my son, who serves helped the people in Japan after their earthquake, and I have no issue with that. But when we are part of an action that is killing people who might not otherwise been killed then where is the logic to that? If the person dies at the hand of Gaddaffi or his henchmen then that is one thing, but I don't want it to be from a bomb one of my citizens dropped and my tax monies helped pay for. I do not want that blood on my hands.

Appox, 1,455,590 Iraq citizens DIED after we invaded their Country. MOST in Iraq wished we'd never step foof on their soil. Were some in Iraq bad people, sure, but most were just THERE. Trying to go about their lives raising their children, cleaning their homes, going to work. Would some of them died under Saddam, sure, but it would of been at his hands not ours.

You know how the rest of the world sees us? They see us as the Soviet Union, Invaders, and we can preach all the lofty phrases we want, those people are dead in the Countries we enter, and when their son, their Father, their sister, their Aunt, their best friend is dead, shot, bombed, or has a baby deformed from Depleted Uranium that we used, they quite frankly don't care what OUR goals were, or the spin that was put on it, and as we found out the LIES WE WERE TOLD to invade their Country. Just like VietNam.......over and over and over again.

So please don't tell me I'm BASHING my Country......my own son will lay his life down for it. So has your relatives, I know. But we OWE it to our sons and daughters to make sure that when we use their lives it is for the RIGHT reason and not some ulterior motive. That they are DEFENDING our Constitution our people and not DEFENDING some misguided Leaders ideas of what we should be doing. We follow our Constitution or we don't, and if we are not following then we have LOST OUR COUNTRY.

So am I wrong for pointing this out? If that is BASHING my Country for pointing out that it is NOT going in the ways it was suppose to go according to our Constitution, or how our Forefather intended, and that I'm standing up to say it, then if that is bashing then let me continue to bash away...........bash bash bash.

I LOVE the Ideals of this Country, I love what this Country was all about, I love what this Country stands for, and because I do, I will not shut up, I will not lay down, I will not crawl in a corner, I will not bury my head, I will not make excuses for the unexcusable, instead I will speak out, stand up, and tell those who are elected YOU ARE F****N up! You are listening to the Corporations, the buddies that have their hands in the till, and you of all people President Obama, should know Constitutional Law!

At one point we had a Democratic House, Congress, and President. So......only the Republicans have us in this mess? They all have us in this mess.......the whole bloody lot of them. Bless Bernie Sanders a voice of reason, the Lighthouse on the hill. Everyone of them should be going........awwww.......wow......clap clap, it is the way, he has the answer, he thinks about everyone, what this Country stood for, THE PEOPLE. But no, we have him as the near lonely voice in the Winds.

Maybe some on here are isolated and don't actually see people going hungry, without dental care and are in pain from teeth they can't eat with, sleep with, and chewing asprins to find some relief, or having to pour the whiskey on the wound while someone else says, well I can sew a dress so I guess I can close a wound up. Seeing children with flip flops as their only shoes, people living in storage lockers and praying they don't get found out. Maybe you don't see it.........I do.........and it isn't pretty, it isn't fun, it is HEARTBREAKING!

So I think if what I said about spending $600,000 x 12 in one day for Cruise Missiles is bashing.....then so be it.

I'm so very very tired of hearing the CRIES and seeing the PAIN of people I call FRIENDS, FAMILY and my fellow AMERICANS.

I feel DAMN PATRIOTIC when I stand UP FOR THEM!!!!

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, From a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16, 1953
34th president of US 1953-1961 (1890 - 1969)
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:23 pm
Since when is a person's local newspaper "Mainstream Media"? It is not the only place I heard and saw these facts. I saw them in the Senate too, and did you know that Kucinich's resolution failed? It's also in the June 4 edition of the South Bend Tribune as listed above. You can also check out the votes by going to C-Span.org. Did you know that of all the Bills he has presented to congress, only one was passed? I just read that the other day, but you can check him out for yourself. You are assuming that everything Kucinich says is true.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:24 pm

Thank you, all who see the dangers so obviously in our faces.

THIS denial of reality has much to do with why Americans either choose, by convenience, not to see it; or through laziness, have decided they are impotent, and a challenge is futile.

Sad . . . so very sad and disheartening.

 

Caitlin Mac Iver (103)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:27 pm
What happened to my friend Barbara K., the liberal thinking cohort of mine. Has she been replaced by someone who believes everything she hears in MSMedia? I thought we had agreed long ago that the corporations, etc., were taking over this country quite steadily. Forgive me, Barbara W. and "C", but I don't this this article is a lot of new information. I do think it's good to keep articles like this in front of us (all people) because apparently there's a tendency to forget just how much in trouble this country is. Fascism is the word I use now, after seeing/hearing/reading Naomi Wolf's articles. She outlines clearly, the steps that have been taken by Bush, et al,to make the United States of America a police state. We are so much closer than many of us have ever thought it could be. If we stand by and become complacent because "our country" is GOOD and "their country" is NOT GOOD (whoever "they" are), we will lose all that is provided for in our constitution.

I don't revere the constitution. I don't think it is perfect by any means, especially in view of all the techno-development that has occurred since it was written. For instance, we really could have a true democracy now if we wanted one---with the advent of secure computer access for all of us. We never have been a demoscracy, but we STILL DO HAVE A CONSTITUTION THAT IS BEING SPIT UPON today! It's a start to claim the rights that the Constitution does provide and all the rights we have gained since the constitution. But right now the wealthy are turning back the clock and usurping all our freedoms, little by little.

I am gravely disappointed that Obama has carried on the "Patriot Act" and other policies, including committing us to military action, that Bush usurped from the people earlier. At this point, we may have more war criminals in our midst than ever were in Germany or elsewhere. We are not saints. We must admit to that and understand that in order to make good decisions.

I'm so sorry that news like this has become commonplace. I highly recommend Naomi Wolf's info to help put it in perspective. Thank you everyone for caring and keeping the dialogue alive.
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:30 pm
"I advise anyone -- wanting real truth -- to look beyond mainstream media, which is owned by corporations, and as such, is a mouthpiece for them. Thank you Carole, " Words to live by! "A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government." Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, 1787, 3rd U.S. President (1743 - 1826)

Thomas Jefferson on the corrupt accumulation of wealth. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/12/08/926940/-Thomas-Jefferson-on-the-corrupt-accumulation-of-wealth

"As it stands now, America has no respect for anybody or anything, human or holy. America doesn't even respect itself, because it's too busy screwing people to steal their money and their resources.

The sad fact is — one which we will learn to our peril if not ultimate destruction — is that you can't respect yourself if you don't respect everybody else. So it's obvious America doesn't even respect itself anymore, because it sure doesn't respect anybody else in the world.

America is at war with the entire world. And most Americans choose not to believe it, even though it's happening right in front of their eyes. And as we speak, Americans are becoming the real victims of a tyranny they have permitted to grow to truly ominous proportions.

It's time to do something about it. Although massive logistical problems and ad hoc legal procedures need to be developed, this would work, I think. And Thomas Jefferson would like it a lot. "

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1890.htm





 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:32 pm
I said that I am not ready to "slam" my own country. I said nothing about what anyone else said, and I certainly didn't use the word "bashing" anywhere. I did not personally attack anyone on here either. Just tried to point out my own point of view. I have no need to defend myself, what I said is right here on this story.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:36 pm

Caitlin, I'm always afraid that what I may say assumes that the average reader is at the same speed. That's very wrong, because we all started at square one, once the "light dawned."

As such, I prod myself to remember that, although I became aware of these things years ago . . . only now, some are beginning to understand it. And, I want to respect them, and acknowledge their reluctance to accept the totality of the evil corruption of their government.

I'm not perfect (by any measure), but like you, it's daunting to me to see someone (who I thought was progressing) suddenly backtrack and challenge what I believe are basics.

Barbara K., I am your friend, but I am totally confounded that you don't understand that local newspapers are fed their news through all of the same mainstream media sources (AP, UPI).

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:54 pm
What about the rebels in Libya? All paid or planted or instigated by the U.S. or Nato? They couldn't possibly be thinking for themselves? Not tired evidently of Ghaffi and wanting to get him out of running the country? Wouldn't be happy if he WAS killed? Aren't happy as hell they are getting help from somebody?

"The U.S. supplies 22 percent of NATO’s budget, almost as much as the next largest contributors Britain and France combined." Couldn't be that it has more money and supplies to contribute or wants to contribute? Doesn't mean anything nefarious necessarily does it?

As for the Rense article, it's a journalist's/editor's statement of his viewpoints about what he saw, plus his conclusions, plus some statements of his own. I also read the Disclaimer that Rense has for anything put on it's website by anybody.

Not necessarily disagreeing with anything anyone on this thread has said, just trying to evaluate things.

I also read elsewhere where a poster said the bomb dropped on this spot was British. Don't know it it's true or not.

Don't know if Obama was deliberately trying to assassinate Ghadafi. You can target a military place. The Rense article said 'there was no evidence of any military assets". Well, that doesn't mean there WEREN'T before HE got there. I can't see Ghadaffi's people leaving any lying around for the public to see. And who's to say (PROVE) that Ghadafi and friends didn't alter the whole scene after the attack so as to make it look like it was just a wonderful little child's playground and sweet family's living quarters?

Just wondering you know.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 12:57 pm

By that same token, I agree that this news item will not be "news" to those of us who are on top of this situation daily.

However, as I stated previously, we need to welcome those who are only now beginning to understand the debacle we are faced with in tackling organized forces -- with much more money, resources and psychology -- who, with enviable resources and monopolization of media -- campaign daily to lull the masses into a myth of reality.

Carry on, my dear fellow crusaders of truth!

 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:01 pm
Barbara because Kucinich has bills failing to get the votes needed does not make him the bad guy! He, like Bernie Sanders are up against the ODDS! THE BIG BIZ SORT OF ODDS! Biased, unchecked, unbridled Power has absolutely corrupted OUR CONGRESS! Kucinich is a good man that's why he can't get to first base with the corrupt and or cowards, who blatantly refuse to do the right thing! Bully's travel in groups because they need that back up. Kucinich walks the walk alone and he keeps on plugging away. Jefferson could not stomach most of the Congressional fools of his time.

Never judge a legislator who fails to get his bills moved. Fault the person who gives up when they know the reasoning for a certain law is just! You're judging Kucinich by the actions of those who may have an un-American agenda which they want no legislator to impede! NOTE: Kucinich/Conyers had the only health care bill worth becoming America's salvation.

KUCINICH IS RIGHT! And he's been right many times in the last 10 years. As was the echoing words of the now deceased Wellstone. Jefferson would say as much. The irony in all of this is that even Republicans like to quote Jefferson.

Jefferson,"The Father Of Democracy"
 

Barbara K. (88)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:01 pm
So we are not to believe the AP, UPI, either? Where do you get your news? I get it from many sources, not just the newspaper. I also watch the Senate and get it from there too. I watch several news sources on TV too. And, yes, I'm about as liberal as one can be. I come from a long line of military family members, even my granddaughter recently returned from duty in Iraq and I feared for her safety every day she was there. I lost a son-in-law in that war and 2 nephews lost limbs there. I'm also as patriotic as one can be too. That doesn't make me a bad person, or mean that my opinions have any less value than anyone else's.
 

(4)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:08 pm
It's awful...
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:24 pm
One thing I notice, though it could be wrong, is that journalists are the new 'experts' on everything. Doesn't matter what paper, what website. Mainstream or not.. Doesn't matter what their view is one way or another on one topic or another, they're self-appointed 'experts' on that topic, period! Got the hot dope, got the 'truth', know the 'facts', drawn the 'correct' conclusions, have the 'right' viewpoint, evaluated everything 'correctly', have the 'correct' observations, couldn't be wrong, aren't wrong, are 'only interested' in the welfare and wellbeing of their fellow humans to a saintly degree, and all because they're 'good people' and have journalism degrees, 'highly respected' by others, have written books, 'been around' a long time, worked their way into their current place and position....

Self-made 'experts', tons of them. All over the place.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:27 pm

There is a distinct difference between a "reporter" and an investigative journalist.

 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:29 pm
Barbara your opinions are very important. All voices should be listened to with respect for what they offer. These are some sorry times and America's in deeper then she's ever been before. The truth is you would be better served if you read what the newspapers in other nations are saying. Not believing all you read but to get another slant on things. Maybe speak with friends that live in other countries. Friends who travel in the Middle east for example.

Carole is right! We have lost the media to the highest bidders. Monopolies are US! "We" should never have allowed monopolies to become the power source they have. Wars are US! Military complex sleeps very cozy with most of America's largest corporations, media included. Blackwater would be out of a job if corporations and Blackwater were honestly monitored for their gross violations.

As We argue this issue the major corporations are doing whatever they can to limit regulation. Excuse me. The Government agencies that are suppose to monitor these huge concerns, even the nuclear industry, are failing miserably. Why? Because Washington, our Senate and house of reps, and the real biz before these leaders does not even remotely represent what's in the best interest of America's citizens.

"We" have a self-serving CONGRESS! CONFLICTS OF INTEREST which at one time would have led to prison! Collusion! Nepotism! And so much more I am weary of it. I'm not bashing my country I've been at this for more then 26 years because I give a damn!
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:31 pm

And anyone who begs the populace to question "the official story" is alright by me. After all, if it's true, it should be able to withstand questioning.


"I'd rather have one question too many than one too few and because, while the Official Story is always "official," it is not always more than just "a story."
~ Keith Olbermann ~

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:36 pm

True, Barbara. Now, whistleblowers are guilty of "espionage."

 
June Trial Looms As Obama DOJ Crusades Against Critics
 
OpEdNews - Andrew Kreig - May 22, 2011
 
He faces a June 13 trial on charges of violating the Espionage Act, ... me in a phone interview this week, "has undertaken an all-out war on whistleblowers. ...

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:38 pm

 
McCarthyism


 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:45 pm
"There is a distinct difference between a "reporter" and an investigative journalist." Greg Palest is one of the few investigative journalist today and he had to leave America, live in another country, because he does indepth investigations that would unravel the world much less what's gone wrong with America. He's been targeted!

When Dan Rather covered the Nuclear issue via Don Browns White pages he was soon on his way out. Then when Rather and Others spoke up against the war with Iraq they were fired. Somethings been stinking up the coutry for some time now and anyone that sees it otherwise, concerns me. Complacency got US here. It will get US out of this jam. Gr$$d feeds on itself and those who serve gr$$d are forever seeking new converts. America was the beacon that lit up and gave hope to the world. Now she's viewed as the darkness which invades who ever her corporations choose. Right on Caitlin. "I highly recommend Naomi Wolf's info to help put it in perspective"
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 1:47 pm
It will get "NOT" US out of this jam.
 

Helen A. (39)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:01 pm
Carole you finally said one thing that I agree with. McCarthyism. You have been all over this post on so many issues and certainly stirred up a ruckus. I remember McCarthyism and what our goverment did to the couple that they thought were spies, they killed them and it was on rumors that they were killed on. Just stupid rumors that were made up, so there you go, most of this stuff is just made up with pretty pictures to make the American public hate who they want us to hate at the moment and it works.
When you hate the only person you hurt is you b/c other person doesn't know that you hate them nor do they care...I'm not talking about people on this post my dear, I'm talking about propagana that is fed to us everyday....love and peace....
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:01 pm

As I'm reading this, it reminds me of something I read a great deal about after questioning "how on earth" it happened . . . the Holocaust.

As an adolescent, when I first became aware of it, I was obsessed. I read everything I could find, and continued to this day to do so. The echoing question in my mind was, "HOW could these people live near these abominable acts, and claim to be unaware?"

In reading first-hand testimonials, I heard these types of responses to the question: "Didn't you notice the trains of people being taken away? "You were within near distance of the crematoriums . . . didn't the ashes cover your house? And, if so, why didn't you question that?"

Responses: "I did wonder why so many people disappeared, but I just thought they chose to leave." "Yes, I did have to clean my windows daily, and wondered why, but never mentioned it."

(Eerily similar to what I'm reading here.)

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:15 pm
Carole, I was talking about most columnists and 'investigative journalists', not mere 'reporters'.

Barb W. got this from 'information clearing house'
"As it stands now, America has no respect for anybody or anything, human or holy. America doesn't even respect itself, because it's too busy screwing people to steal their money and their resources.
The sad fact is — one which we will learn to our peril if not ultimate destruction — is that you can't respect yourself if you don't respect everybody else. So it's obvious America doesn't even respect itself anymore, because it sure doesn't respect anybody else in the world.
America is at war with the entire world."

When I see generalities galore by anyone, I dismiss them completely outright. Like this John Kaminski who wrote this article. Generalities are USELESS. WORTHLESS. In fact they're harmful. They pretend to speak about everything for everybody in some all encompassing way. How can one person pretend to make a conclusion for everybody? It's nuts! It's impossible! Completely illogical, devoid of Reason.
I look at more at his article and it's FULL OF GENERALITIES. He's. actually pretends to talk for 'WE'. Who's 'we'? Another big vague generality.
If it had virtually NO generalities, then that's different. Generalities are fine for little, unimportant things like 'Girls are nice' and 'Fords are better than Chevys'. But when they're used to pretend to manufacture an opinion for everyone about something big and important, and especially in a negative way, they're harmful.
Who talks FOR the big generality of 'America'? Jack? I don't know. Joe? I don't know. Mary? Rick? Betty? And in case anyone says 'they all do' I bet there's a lot of differnce of opinion from everyone who talks for the big generality of 'America'. Just my thoughts.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:16 pm

What I'm witnessing here is purposeful denial.

In your minds, if you don't accept that your country is perpetrating injustice, you are not responsible for changing it.

If you condemn those who bring awareness to you, you can still claim innocence on the basis of "patriotism" to your government.

This government was founded upon truth and independence. Anyone would pleads ignorance, and as such, enables the destruction of this country's founding documents, and the pride its citizens felt in upholding those standards, may be "friends" to the presently prevailing circumventers . . . but their actions are treasonous to the principles upon which this country was founded, and which its present executors and legislators are desecrating.

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:23 pm

EEK! I hate when my passion/revisions produce typos:

"Anyone would pleads ignorance..."

Should read: "Any who would plead ignorance, and as such, enable . . ."

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:23 pm
"As I'm reading this, it reminds me of something I read a great deal about after questioning "how on earth" it happened . . . the Holocaust"

That's taking a viewpoint of something that occurred in the past and that something similar of the same order and magnitude is occurring in the present. What exactly are you referring to that is happening currently, specifically of the same type? And this is some people's viewpoints compared to other people's viewpoints. Not all of which agree regarding what is ACTUALLY occurring currently. Some say this is occurring, some say that is occurring, some might say this is the same as the holocaust, some might say it certainly isn't, etc.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:28 pm

Kenneth, Kenneth, Kenneth (whose opinion I truly respect):

"That's taking a viewpoint of something that occurred in the past and that something similar of the same order and magnitude is occurring in the present."

This IS happening! All signs are there (for those who choose to open their eyes)!

WE have allowed this government to decimate its Bill of Rights, to a point where is it unrecognizable!

WHEN will people -- at least -- CONSIDER another point of view? One that more closely represents reality?

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:33 pm

Similarities?

Whistleblowers are now espionage agents.

The Constitution can be ignored by the sitting president (who took an oath to uphold it).

How far should the public allow this to continue before questioning it?

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:36 pm


The 14 points of Fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism  --  Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights  --  Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause  --  The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military  --  Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism  --  The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media  --  Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security  --  Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined  --  Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected  --  The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed  --  Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts  --  Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment  --  Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption  --  Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections  --  Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 2:53 pm
Kenneth I have lived this reality and survived, mind you, so too have those I call family! No matter the detours put before US on our personal quest we worked our way through them! I have sung my songs of woe and loved to reach the hearts of my audience, so, I well understand this reality game. A reality "DEAD ZONE" "I would WISH ON NO ONE", not even my enemies! Many of my friends, both the old friends & the new, have also suffered this reality. And they have been for some time now. We only have one life and it should never be wasted on those who serve wealth/Empire/Dynesty! There are many of US & "We" Weary!

REAL life, not the REEL life, is a bitch! In one way or another, like it or not, we're all connected to this rarely asked "QUESTION"
"What's Really Ailing America" and we had better get it right.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday June 6, 2011, 3:54 pm
NATO and the UN were guilty of crimes against humanity in Bosnia and Serbia over 20 years ago, and those crimes continue today! The troops are only there to guard a major drug route into Europe.
 

Allan Yorkowitz (453)
Monday June 6, 2011, 3:57 pm
As with I believe most of those who wrote in, it would have been a tragic mistake to take Qaddafi out. Either Obama is getting disturbing advice on how to proceed , or he simply wanted to score political points. Qaddafi needs to be arrested, like Hussein, and be convicted of war crimes. This would have not been our role in what is going on in Libya.
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:03 pm
I wonder how many folks realize that this is one, of many reasons, why we deploy our military and or the likes of Blackwater around the world! America was not suppose to grow nor maintain a standing army much less give power to one that's called "Mercenary!"
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:09 pm
Interesting link that all should check out.

http://brokenflask.com/2011/04/04/americas-true-reason-for-attacking-libya-new-central-bank/
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:16 pm
"We’re not going to baby sit a civil war.
Barack Obama, January of 2007 in opposition to buildup of troops in Iraq

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors…and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. – Obama, 2002

In the end, no amount of American forces can solve the political differences that lie at the heart of somebody else’s civil war. – BARACK OBAMA, speech, Jan. 19, 2007

I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war.
Barack Obama


http://floppingaces.net/2011/03/28/the-real-reasons-were-bombing-libya-reader-post/
 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:19 pm
Libya has the greatest oil reserves in Africa.

As of 2008 the US was receiving over 100,000 barrels of oil per day from Libya.

Several US oil companies have interests in Libya and so does Halliburton.

Note: A few weeks before Obama began bombing Libya, the US State Department allowed Moammar Gaddafi’s son to visit the US, spending a few weeks in the US, touring ports and military facilities.

http://floppingaces.net/2011/03/28/the-real-reasons-were-bombing-libya-reader-post/

 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:22 pm
The Real Reason Why We Went Into Libya??

http://www.insideriowa.com/index.cfm?nodeID=22665&audienceID=1&action=display&newsID=12698
 

Nefertmu I. (0)
Monday June 6, 2011, 4:44 pm
Thank you Barbara for this article. Too often in the United States we are just fed the okey dok and we go along with it. On a related note, there was an article in the Guardian (a very mainstream magazine in the UK) where the author spoke about how all the reports of Qaddaffi firing on civilians from planes and tanks (which were supposedly happening while he, the author, was in Lybia)-that he had not seen any of that type of behavior from the Qaddaffi regime, and he was in the same place where they were supposedly having these anti-civilian attacks.
 

Dandelion G. (386)
Monday June 6, 2011, 5:01 pm
Care2 messing up with me....tried to get this on right after Carole's of 2:33 and got white sceens. Yeah I'm on.

Sorry Barbara K. you used the word hammer not bash.....my bad......but hammers tend to bash things.

I am glad there are people at least willing to have this discussion too many are not and that is the heavy to my heart. So many not even questioning, talking, thinking.

Carole said: (I paraphrase)

"Yes, I did have to clean my windows daily, and wondered why, but never mentioned it." (the ashes from the cremations of so many people.....who...... "I did wonder why so many people disappeared, but I just thought they chose to leave."

Sigh......

Whistleblowers are now espionage agents.

The Constitution can be ignored by the sitting president (who took an oath to uphold it).

How far should the public allow this to continue before questioning it?

And I'll add......

We can close our eyes from things we don't want to see, but we can't close our hearts on things we don't want to feel no matter how hard we try.....

How is it out there people? Is it FEELING good?
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 5:23 pm
 
The Obama administration's dangerous course on Libya Senator Richard Lugar, Washington Post, June 5 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-obama-administrations-dangerous-course-on-libya/2011/06/03/AGDD3mJH_story.html
 
[Lugar is the ranking member on Senate Foreign Relations.]
 
The House of Representatives sent the Obama administration a strong, bipartisan rebuke on Friday for failing to make the case for war in Libya or seeking congressional authorization for military action. It is critical that the administration understand the significance of this vote, abandon its plans for a nonbinding resolution in the Senate and proceed to seek the requisite debate and authorization for the use of military force, as I have advocated for nearly three months.
 
The White House called the vote "unnecessary and unhelpful," but it has only itself to blame. The administration faces bipartisan opposition in Congress because it has, for more than two months, sidestepped the clear constitutional and legislative intent that a president obtain congressional authorization to go to war.
 
At the time that President Obama was seeking endorsement for military action at the United Nations, he didn't seek a congressional declaration of war, as specified in Article I of the Constitution. After the fighting began and U.S. planes and missiles had attacked Libyan targets, the president still declined to seek congressional approval.
 
The president promised that he would act consistent with the War Powers Resolution, which requires congressional approval to continue military action beyond 60 days after it commences, and to consult closely with Congress. These commitments have gone unfulfilled. The administration even barred Defense Department officials from testifying at a public hearing and canceled a private briefing for senators by a Marine general. This disdain for Congress and constitutional principles led to Friday's nonbinding House resolution.
 
 
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 5:29 pm

More from the above-mentioned article:

"Further, because the president has not made his case to Congress, the American people have no clear understanding of the U.S. interests at stake in Libya, how much this will cost and what other priorities will have to be sacrificed.

Even the goals of the conflict remain unclear. The United Nations sanctioned only protection of civilians, and in March the president said, "Broadening our military mission to include regime change would be a mistake." But at the Group of Eight summit in France last month he declared that the aim was to ensure that the Libyan people will be "finally free of 40 years of tyranny." Is the United States obligated to participate in Libya's reconstruction?

The Founding Fathers gave Congress the power to declare war for good reason: It forces the president to present his case in detail to the American public, allows for a robust debate to examine that case and helps build broad political support to commit American blood and treasure overseas. Little of that has happened here.

The nonbinding House resolution called on the president to issue a report to Congress answering 20 important questions about Libya. If the administration is wise enough to provide these answers promptly, that would be an example of the consultation that has so far been lacking.

Waging war is the most serious business our nation does. Obtaining congressional approval for war is not simple. But because getting out of wars is so difficult, the Founders did not intend that getting into them should be easy. The president should take the lesson from the House vote, retract his endorsement of the Senate resolution and propose a joint resolution with the force of law. Such steps would signal his willingness finally to engage Congress on the Libyan war and be the starting point for a real debate in both houses."

 

Dandelion G. (386)
Monday June 6, 2011, 5:41 pm
Phew......I'm sure glad he was the Noble Peace Prize President.
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday June 6, 2011, 5:49 pm

LOL!!!

(Thanks for injecting some levity, Sheryl.)

 

Barbara W. (342)
Monday June 6, 2011, 6:32 pm
You ladies are on a roll.

"Phew......I'm sure glad he was the Noble Peace Prize President."

Touche' Dandelion!
 

Jelica R. (157)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 12:02 am

DOD News Briefing with Secretary Gates and Adm. Mullen from the Pentagon:

Federal News Service, March 1, 2011 Tuesday

Q: Mr. Secretary, Admiral Mullen just mentioned that in Libya Moammar Gadhafi is waging war on his own people, as you put it. What -- is U.S. military intervention realistic? And what specific kinds of options are you considering? Could you describe, for example, the possibility of a no-fly zone or arming rebel forces?

SEC. GATES: ...I would note that the U.N. Security Council resolution provides no authorization for the use of armed force. There is no unanimity within NATO for the use of armed force. And the kinds of options that have been talked about in the press and elsewhere also have their own consequences and second- and third-order effects. So they need to be considered very carefully.

Our job is to give the president the broadest possible decision space and options, and to go into the things that we're thinking about, the options that we're providing, I think, have the potential to narrow his decision space. And I have no intention of doing that.
--------
Q: Do you see any evidence that [Gaddafi] actually has fired on his own people from the air? There were reports of it, but do you have independent confirmation? If so, to what extent?

SEC. GATES: We’ve seen the press reports, but we have no confirmation of that.

ADM. MULLEN: That’s correct. We’ve seen no confirmation whatsoever.
_____________________

BREAKING NEWS: Western Libya Portrait is not What is being Painted by Mainstream Media; Wayne Madsen, Global Research, June 4, 2011

Western media reports continue to indicate that Libyan rebels trying to oust Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi from power, backed by daily NATO air strikes, are gaining ground in western Libya.

During a six-hour drive from the Tunisian border to Tripoli, the Libyan capital, this reporter saw no signs of Libyan rebel successes in western Libya. In fact, I witnessed a spontaneous pro-Qaddafi demonstration on the main Tunisia-Tripoli highway in a town about one and a half hours west of Tripoli.
_______________________

VIDEO: Imperial Takeover: Libya is Now a Humanitarian Disaster, Cynthia McKinney - 2011-05-29

In the words of Former US Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney:

"The sad fact, however, is that it is the Libyans themselves, who have been insulted, terrorized, lynched, and murdered as a result of the press reports that hyper-sensationalized this base ignorance. Who will be held accountable for the lives lost in the bloodletting frenzy unleashed as a result of these lies?..."
_______________________________

Libya under NATO Attack: Stop Bombing Africa and the Poor of the World; Cynthia McKinney, Global Research, May 26, 2011

From the Gulf War to the War on North Africa: On the True Meaning of Democracy; Cynthia McKinney, Global Research, March 28, 2011
 

Jelica R. (157)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 12:05 am

Ups, missing link...

BREAKING NEWS: Western Libya Portrait is not What is being Painted by Mainstream Media; Wayne Madsen, Global Research, June 4, 2011
 

Jelica R. (157)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 12:48 am

As always, some are wondering whom to believe, big media, politicians, investigative journalists, or what is written in the laws. Tough choice ...
 

Parvez Zuberi (7)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 1:06 am
We should at all cost punish war criminals and they may not be allowed to roam free BUSH and his cronies are still free no action has been taken against them or taken to court for war crimes they committed in IRAQ and Afghanistan this careless attitude has given advantage to other leaders to go on killing innocent people in Libya they should also be taken to task JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED so please do not let these war criminals enjoy freedom if you people in AMERICA believe in Justice and respect Human rights
 

Shelly Peterson (213)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 1:08 am
Wow!
 

Ian MacLeod (79)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 1:56 am
Hello, my friends! I'm sorry I've not been around for a while. I've had some physical problems, and I've been busy. Some of you may have heard that I'll actually be getting married on the 21st of this month! I need new clocks; there aren't enough hours on mine... This is definitely the same place I left, though. Feels like it's in the middle of the same conversation.

Someone asked why America has to police the world. We don't - don't have to, aren't trying. That's the EXCUSE for bombing the hell out of anyplace the Administration feels like. I read a bit not long ago - haven't found confirmation yet though - where it's said the president claims the war in Libya isn't actually a "war" - it's a "kinetic military action'". Those aren't really bombs, just kinetic energy transfers, I suppose. It's my guess Qaddafi made an economic/political decision that wasn't favored in Washington, although Libya has been on the Targeted Countries list first made up by the PNAC when Bush was trying to follow it. I snagged it then off the PNAC homepage. Then my computer blew up.

America isn't trying to police anything, least of itself. The Fed is still printing out (and handing out) $75 billion a month. Kucinich has been right about every time I've read anything he's written. Thing is, "our government" now totally ignores the Constitution, and any person, any agency, any court that COULD hold the President, the Republican party (really, I suppose, the Republicratic party, or call it the Demopublican party), the FDA, FTC, DEA, ONDCP, CDC, DOJ - folks, every damned agency in the government is so totally CORRUPT and under the control of the corporations (soon I expect it will be THE Corporation), the citizens of America are totally CUT OFF from the government and ANY possibility of redress. Notice what happens any time someone tries for redress? File formally, you get ignored, or you don't have standing. Protest and you get attacked by an army that used to be our Peace Officers. Contact your Congresscritters and you get a nice form letter that tells it your demand, request or whatever was never touched by human hands or seen by human eyes (I'm not sure that any elected official would count, either). Our government also ignores all international laws and treaties, not just our own laws.

Hundreds of innocent American citizens are being murdered by militarized cops in SWAT raids that seem to hit the wrong house a lot of the time. We're ALL being spied on, including on the Net now. Congress seldom seems to pass laws any more - in effect they make decrees and tell us they had a hard fight passing those laws that so many citizens were screaming about NOT wanting to be passed. (They don't put it quite that way). Turns out we've been bombing Hawaii for decades (including with DU - downwinders are a bit upset) for target practice. Big Pharma (protected by the gov't) has been using diseased African monkey kidneys to make vaccines for a long time as it turns out; still are, too. People think we're allowing NATO to dictate to us about where we go with war, but that's not really the case; Obama's just moving down The List, following orders. Meanwhile there's talk he's been negotiating with Canada to trade militarys for the next fake pandemic outbreak. I assume Canadians won't mind shooting and disarming Americans, and Americans vice versa. Wonder what they'll do with all those U.N troops on U.S. soil the U.S. has been training in Urban Warfare with the last year or so? The FDA has gone on a binge of attacking all natural health products, better cancer treatments, a safer and more accurate breast cancer test they want gone (it interferes with the current, profitable and cancer-causing technology - profits and the depopulation agenda, in other words). Congress, especially the ones who call themselves Republicans (no, I won't go through that again) are openly corrupt and openly against the ordinary American citizen having ANY rights. Or jobs, or money. Money especially.

America is NOT "becoming" a fascist dictatorship. It IS a fascist dictatorship! We the People just haven't gotten annoying enough yet for them stop harvesting all the wealth long enough to put us under martial law and do some serious work on the Depop Agenda. We're getting closer though. People really ARE starting to wake up! Meanwhile the gov't is trying to ace the Internet one way or another, working on destroying the food and water supplies and to keep the most toxic and dangerous medicines on the shelves, now working on edible chips to put into food, &tc. Nope, the war in Libya is NOT Constitutional, NOT legal, here or elsewhere. And it's NOT going to stop until the Rulers are damned good and ready to stop.

SO now what?

Ian
 

Arild Warud (163)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 2:03 am
The first thing lost in any war is the thruth,thanks Barabara.
 

Stan B. (124)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 2:10 am
You cannot currently send a star to Barbara because you have done so within the last week.
Barbara K that is.
 

Bracha Kay (31)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 3:15 am
If NATO could have killed Qadaffi without hurting or killing anyone else, that would be the best think for they could do, for Libyan civilians and global security. Just because his house had swingsngs and games, it does not mean that it does not have a military command center also. How sick is it that he goes to a petting zoo while Libyans are being massacred?! And a private petting zoo while so many Libyans are living in poverty!
I only mourn the death of little children and animals.
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 5:05 am
 
From an excellent article I read a few years ago, Patriotism versus Nationalism:
 
"Is it not blind allegiance that has been the very cornerstone in the foundation of every militaristic dictatorship ever established throughout the annals of recorded history? Was not nationalism the philosophy that caused hundreds of thousands to march in goose-step behind an insane elected official who was killing millions behind the “patriot’s” backs? Do we really want hundreds of thousands of highly-trained and well-armed government employees that will follow the orders, without question, of every crackpot that manages to achieve high military or civilian rank? One of the greatest living patriots I know taught me long ago that a good patriot always reserves the right to question authority. Indeed, a true patriot insists on questioning authority. A nationalist, by contrast, willingly gives himself to the ruling elite and sacrifices his own soul upon the altar of the highly exalted State. How many young “patriots” have died fighting for “our freedom” in some far-away land where “our freedom” was never threatened in the first place? How many soldiers have nationalists killed by duping them into believing that they risk their lives in a patriotic cause?"
 
 
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 5:56 am
 
From a share I posted this morning, Who Owns The Media? The 6 Monolithic Corporations That Control Almost Everything We Watch, Hear And Read
 
"Fortunately, an increasing number of Americans are starting to wake up and are realizing that the mainstream media should not be trusted.  According to a new poll just released by Gallup, the number of Americans that have little to no trust in the mainstream media (57%) is at an all-time high.
 
That is one reason why we have seen the alternative media experience such rapid growth over the past few years.  The mainstream media has been losing credibility at a staggering rate, and Americans are starting to look elsewhere for the truth about what is really going on.
 
Do you think that anyone in the mainstream news would actually tell you that the Federal Reserve is bad for America or that we are facing a horrific derivatives bubble that could destroy the entire world financial system?  Do you think that anyone in the mainstream media would actually tell you the truth about the deindustrialization of America or the truth about the voracious greed of Goldman Sachs?"
 
 
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 6:14 am
Carole, "Kenneth, Kenneth, Kenneth" (whose opinion I truly respect)"....
Oh yeah? Well, I think you're one of the most intelligent people I've met on Care2....so take that! lol

However, you do realize your '14 Points of Fascism' are by some unknown person who compiled them out of their own conclusions and ideas, and from 'favreauinfo.com' that bills itself as 'Weird and funny news, some political and technological comments, articles, and links to wacky stuff.'

I'm sure there are tons of varying ideas by many different people about what fascism is. Probably the best definition would be found in a good dictionary. And then people extrapolate their own opinions about it after that. Happens all the time with 'isms'.

Your last sentence in your last post about soldiers, I can't quite get my head around the thought that soldiers are all apparently brainwashed, duped, misguided, stupid, and obviously not as intelligent or aware or perceptive as a seemingly enlightened large number of non-combatant citizens at home. These weren't your words but my impression. Yes, they have to follow orders, but most join using their own power of choice and decision. So who's to play superior to their ability to decide about and see things?

Ian, where do you get this from "Meanwhile there's talk he's been negotiating with Canada to trade militarys for the next fake pandemic outbreak. I assume Canadians won't mind shooting and disarming Americans, and Americans vice versa"
Talk? What talk? What source of 'facts' did you get this from? And here you are extrapolating a conclusion from something that may or may not be true. Anybody can do that.
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 6:25 am

Thanks, Kenneth.

NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).
http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html
 
As for the last sentence of my quoted excerpt, I don't think it's implying that soldiers should not take orders. Of course, they must. My interpretation was that we need to make sure we have leaders we can trust who will not misuse/abuse the necessary obedience of soldiers by risking their lives for purposes that have nothing to do with protecting their country, and only benefits the bottom line of private corporations, or for imperialism.

 

Jelica R. (157)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 6:45 am

Oh, The American Exceptionalism supporters have joined us.

Since when is taking part in another country's CIVIL WAR legal? In my country it is even illegal to be drafted by any side in (eventual) civil war.

Since when does NATO collaborate (again!) with Al Quaida? Please, go and read DOD News Briefing with Secretary Gates and Adm. Mullen from the Pentagon: Federal News Service, March 1, 2011 Tuesday. Secretary Gates (I think) clearly said that they don't know WHO the rebels are, if Ghadafi is really massacring civilians and what is indeed going on in Libya. Note, that is official defense.gov site, not some obscure blog!

Ian mentioned that NATO's Libya operation is called "kinetic humanitarian action". WTF is that suppose to mean? I do not understand why a humanitarian action, whose purpose was to protect civilians, forbids medical supply for Libyans, but generously throw bombs in densely populated cities on that same civilians they are allegedly protecting. Was not the UN mandate to establish a no-fly zone?

Why NATO ships refuse to help civilians? See Aircraft carrier left us to die, say migrants, Boat trying to reach Lampedusa was left to drift in Mediterranean for 16 days, despite alarm being raised. An unwritten law on see is to HELP. Everybody living near sea anywhere in the world knows this. E.v.e.r.y.b.o.d.y!

How it is possible for a rebel leader Khalifa Hifter to spent much of past 20 Years in Langley Virginia, (next to the CIA HQ), supporting his family without clear income sources?

Would it be good to get clear answers on those (and some other) questions?
 

shirley s. (0)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 6:49 am
thou shall not kill is the commandment which Qaadafi did not obey in supporting terrorism.
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 6:55 am

Loved your American Exceptionalism article, Jelica!

(Can't give you another green star yet.)

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 7:12 am
Thanks for the clarification of the author of the 14 Points of Fascism. That carries more weight.
The better the source and the better the data, and the more factual data, gives a potentially better, more correct conclusion about something.
 

Ian MacLeod (79)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 7:17 am
"One of the greatest living patriots I know taught me long ago that a good patriot always reserves the right to question authority. Indeed, a true patriot insists on questioning authority."

"How many young “patriots” have died fighting for “our freedom” in some far-away land where “our freedom” was never threatened in the first place? "

Perfect, Carole! Those two things summarize the main point of what so many people here have been trying to say for so long. And look what's happening: Obama is going after whistleblowers full force. He's going after dissenters, who are now classified as "likely homegrown terrorists." America is a dangerous place to speak the truth, but maybe it's FINALLY getting out there! How many times have most of us here asked, "How is our military fighting for our freedoms? Iraq never threatened our freedoms! Afghanistan doesn't, and Iran doesn't either!" No, they threatened something much worse: oligarch/corporate power and profits.

Obama has been as shameless a liar as Bush, as he's at least as much a war criminal. He has no authority to exercise even a fraction of the power he does. He gets away with it because We the People have been cut off from our own government, and those in the government are and have been in an echo chamber where they only hear the lies of their own kind. Our voices are drowned out, blocked by marble walls and armed guards. Our elections are farcical. He had NO right to try to assassinate Qaddafi, but he clearly gave the order on the orders of his handler from whichever oligarch is his master. I think that article/video about Libya and Central Banking is probably right. It's what got Andrew Jackson attacked three times, it got Kennedy executed bloodily in public as a warning... How long before the most vocal of us on the Internet find ourselves targeted I wonder?

Our police are becoming an armed and armored, black-uniformed military reminiscent of the SS. They "accidentally" kill a lot of innocent people, and they are never held accountable. Just, "Oops." That's it. FDA, FTC, CDC and others are now working hard to remove any possible competition from the path of Big Pharma, allopathic medicine, Big Ag/Monsanto, etc. The next attempt at a mandatory vaccine, I suspect, will be much better backed by armed force than the previous attempts. Martial law looks like it might be just around the corner now, doesn't it?

I'd like to see a movement to back Kucinich in calling Obama on this, in demanding that Congress exercise its power!

Ian
 

Jelica R. (157)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 7:25 am

Love ya, Carole, for your courage and thirst for truth.

You see, as a small country citizen, I am scared sh*t with the course the humanity is on. I almost wish I was brainwashed enough to believe that everything is milk/honey, apart from a few politicians, and we will eventually work it out. Another elections, or petition and the world will be heaven, like it was always meant to be. Here, on care2, I read comments from people who see the truth and want to change things, and I feel good. Then somebody uninformed, like shirley s., pops up, and I get so discouraged and feel too old to experience some positive change in my lifetime. Then I really loose it, so I will sign-off for today before I get banned.
__________

That "change" word is ripped off. I need to find a synonym.
 

Dandelion G. (386)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 7:54 am
I hear you Jelica, I noticed with sadness the comment also by Shirley S. I just do what I do to try to inform and to educate others. I often wonder do the people like Shirley even begin to read what is being said, to try to get some information to roll around in their heads, or do they just stick with a few pat ideas that were launched at them at some point and they just drop that where-ever they go without advancing in their thinking.

I know when I first came onto Care2, there were some ideas that I had and I thought I was pretty aware with those ideas. But I took time to read others comments, then I began to question a few things that I was holding on to, so I did some more research into it, mulled it around in my head, thought it out a bit more, and came to a new place. To become an educated and informed person means willing to advance from the place you were. It did not mean you were a bad person that you had the ideas you did, but perhaps not as informed as you could be.

When we are children we readily learned, moved forward, and after we found out that dinosaurs are not really still walking around on the earth, we didn't spend the next 30 years trying to find them still hiding behind some tree and telling people, they are there, I just know they are there. No, we advanced with our learning, accepted the new facts we were never going to get to meet an alive dinosaur, be contented watching the movies, study their bones in museums.

But it seems once many of us get to be adults it is harder to let go of things even when the facts are presented over and over or the realities around us are "showing" us that what we believe is not correct. Or perhaps it is easier to trick ourselves to believing in the make believe rather than facing the truth, for the truth hurts sometimes, but as the saying goes....."the truth will set you free" and ignorance is not always bliss, it tends to be followed with a rude awakening.
 

Rosie Lopez (73)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 10:52 am
thanks for the article
 

Amena Ravenwing (187)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 11:07 am
What a fantastic discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed; it has helped me to clarify my own position.
I hope that this freedom of the internet, this ability to hold unhindered expression of thought is not taken us. What I carry away with me this afternoon is no more than the mantra of my life since the '60's: "question authority." That and "to thine own self be true" shape my life and help me deal with all the information and misinformation that flows my way in daily torrent. Oh, and, "keep an open mind" does not hurt, either. Thanks, all.
 

Barbara W. (342)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 12:47 pm
Shirley has no profile so it may be a waste to respond but so I shall! Thou shalt not kill Shirley? America has destroyed and or murdered, via her military, CIA, and God only knows through what other clandestine groups, millions. In Iraq alone bringing these folks democracy cost them at least a million of their citizens mostly children and the elderly. Back in Reagan/Bush years 30,000 Nicaraguans were sacrificed for what? "the contra war managed to kill more than 30000 Nicaraguans, "Impoverishing the people of Nicaragua.

Then there's our drug war that allowed the US, Major corporations aided by mercenaries and the CIA, to glom up farm land, etc., Please, Shirley, if you are to quote from the bible at least be fair in what it is you're evaluating. America, the land of my birth, has enough blood on her hands to bring tears to my eyes. Chiquita Banana, Chevron, Massey Mining, BP who devastated the Gulf along with the folks who depend on the Gulf to survive, Exxon, Halliburton, Bechtel, BLACKWATER and less I forget, those drug cartels that sell dangerous drugs on the open market. And there are many other agency's, corporations, companies, I could name that are without conscience.

Gaddafi is NOT doing what he is being accused of any more then Saddam was behind 9/11, or building WMD. Is Gaddafi defending himself! Well hell yea! Would not our President under attack do the same? This is the REAL world! Not the REEL, most are glued too.

Who armed, gave Nuclear to Israel, India, Pakistan, among other nations with all manner of WMD which includes Chemicals?

I would challenge you to reflect on Waco, the Branch Dividians, and 22 beautiful children that were targeted and burned to death in the 90's. Canisters of highly flammable gas was used on these folks who had children in this compound. The ATF & FBI were faced with cuts to these agency's and lo and behold "We" get this God awful terrorist act on American soil executed, by Americans, ON AMERICANS.

And please do not come back at me with Koresh was responsible because then I'll know you don't do the math, as the expression goes..
As a freelance investigative reporter I covered this attack on Americans, living in harmony, from it's onset. It was an act of terror that should have received far more coverage then it did. All we got was Koresh was abusing children and or they were stock piling weapons.

They were doing what any American is, has, will do should they believe in the second amendment. They had not threatened anyone. Many hunted for food. The town of Waco businesses said these were some very polite decent families who often did business with them. This included Koresh. The FBI did not have to go to the compound to arrest Koresh. There was far more to this act which should never have happened on America's soil.

There would be far less WMD in the world if America and several other so called civilized countries had not made and, still make bundles selling nuclear and other WMD! More American's must begin to think for themselves if this nation is to recover her dignity. Where one gets their info is very imperative these days! The actions or inaction of many American leaders leaves the USA seriously wanting!
 

John Farnham (53)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 2:56 pm
Wow. I know Carole as a tireless campaigner for truth...on Care 2. Dandelion I have known about for years if I can assume Dandelion Salad is yours. And I do what is complained about...collect news from alternative sources; opitslinkfest.blogspot.com Not that it is necessary when I know places that track news worldwide and have people committed to bringing truth forward...and this is one of many.
I was going to point out the Military commissions Act of 2006 and the American Service Members Act of 2002 as well as bilateral immunity agreements...all of which facilitate torture and 'illegal' acts like 'rendition' by sabotaging legal accountability. Then I remembered that vets- like Ian - were the ones who had illusion removal performed.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06/04/have-zero-respect-for-the-mainstream-media-gilad-atzmon-interview-by-silvia-cattori/
Note the sources...I do.
 

John Farnham (53)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 3:25 pm
Canadians Against the Perimeter Agreement http://www.facebook.com/CanadiansAgainstThePerimeterAgreement?sk=wall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCAi_dknUR0
North American Union, Political Parties And Our Canadian Constitution
www.youtube.com
Video By: NAURESISTANCE Sounds By: Jimmy Penguin | Track: Safe A Conversation I had with Kathleen Moore From Habeas Corpus Canada in regards to relying on po...
RCMP report warns of extremists spinning web to recruit youths online
www.theglobeandmail.com
Radical groups are using online video games, cartoon characters and even crossword puzzles to promote their extremist agendas
If your just starting your research into the common security perimeter that is about to be rammed down our throats.. please visit http://nauresistance.org/common-security-perimeter-msm-links/ there is a plethora of MSM article links to check out on the subject..
Common Security Perimeter News
nauresistance.org
Keeping An Eye On The Mainstream Media And The Common Security Perimeter Deal.
Oh Canada Movie - Our Bought and Sold Out Land
www.youtube.com
‎****I am not the person who made this video. This is an amazing documentary exposing one of the biggest scam that is Canada's monetary system and the corrupt...
Softwood lumber deal a gift so Harper government could be more pro-American: Cable | Embassy - Canad
www.embassymag.ca
Embassy is CanadaŐs influential foreign policy newspaper. With a weekly readership of over 60,000 it is the forum for debate on international issues for politicians, foreign policy experts, diplomats, aid workers, the military, leaders in trade and business and immigrant communities in Canada.
Somebody asked about North American Union ? In school I was taught the first 40 years of Confederation were a political dogfight over tariffs. A biography of Nelson Rockfeller referred to 'Free trade' being on the CIA agenda in 1945. Even most Canadians don't know about the disputes over floodwaters due to the Garrison Diversion.
Never mind. I have over 2000 posts and countless resources available. if you don'like opitslinkfest.blogspot.com You could always try social bookmarking searches - in fact I recommend it.
http://www.diigo.com/oldephartte is mine - but search the community !
 

Dandelion G. (386)
Tuesday June 7, 2011, 7:01 pm
John Farnham, just to set the record straight, I go by Dandelion but I'm not Dandelion Salad. In fact I just ran across her blog, Dandelion Salad, and used her link to post the videos she had on there about the Adam Kokesh Dance at the Jefferson Memorial. She came by to thank me for using her link to post to Care2, and she friend requested me for a link on Care2, her page on Care2 she uses another name, not Dandelion.

It is funny she and I just met the other day for these reasons I have explained and I'm grateful she and I seem to be a lot on the same page. lol So where-ever the Dandelions go I guess we are fighting a similar battle, but we are two individual people who were not until recently aware of each other. lol Now we are and linked as friends and warriors too.
 

Dave Kane (308)
Tuesday June 21, 2011, 6:53 pm
We all need to think and use our brains or what we have to pass for brains. Leave the crap behind. Think for your self. Do it!
 
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