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You Were WARNED!!! Bush/McCain OR Obama = Samegame Different Day.

Society & Culture  (tags: abuse, freedoms, dishonesty, cover-up, congress, bush, obama, news, lies, Govtfearmongering, rights, society, ethics, americans )

Sara
- 90 days ago - utdocuments.blogspot.com
Already mastering the art of broken promises and covered up with hogwash. Obama claims he opposes telecom immunity but will vote for a bill that grants it. The new FISA bill vests new categories of warrantless eavesdropping powers in the President.
Comments

Sara S. (70)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:19 pm
Thursday, July 03, 2008
Obama's new statement on FISA

Barack Obama has issued a new statement on FISA in response to the growing number of his supporters objecting to his position...

Taking Obama's claims in order:

It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses. That's why I support striking Title II from the bill, and will work with Chris Dodd, Jeff Bingaman and others in an effort to remove this provision in the Senate.

Obama says he will vote to remove immunity from the bill, but he knows full well that this effort will fail and that the final bill will have telecom immunity in it. The bottom line is that he will nonetheless end up voting for this bill with immunity in it even though he previously vowed to support a filibuster of "any bill" that contains retroactive immunity. Put another way, Obama claims he opposes telecom immunity but will vote for a bill that grants it.

But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year.

Whether it's better than the Protect America Act (PAA) is irrelevant. The PAA already expired last February. If the new FISA bill is rejected, we don't revert back to the Protect America Act. We just continue to live under the same FISA law that we've lived under for 30 years (with numerous post-9/11 modernizing amendments). So whether this bill is a mild improvement over the atrocious, expired PAA is not even a coherent reason to support it, let alone a persuasive one.

The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court.

The current FISA law -- as a federal court ruled just yesterday -- already has the same exclusivity provision, and it did nothing to stop the President and the telecoms from breaking the law anyway. The fact that Obama is now going to vote to end the telecom lawsuits and immunize the lawbreakers means that there will be no consequences for their having broken the law. How can Obama possibly claim that the "exclusivity" provision in the new FISA bill has value when the current law that they broke already has the same provision?

As I wrote today:

They're presenting as a "gift" something you already have, and telling you that you should give up critical protections in exchange for receiving something that you already have -- namely, a requirement that the President comply with eavesdropping laws. What they're doing is tantamount to someone who steals your wallet, takes all the money out, gives the empty wallet back to you, and then tells you that you should be grateful to them because you have your wallet.

Exclusivity is obviously no reason to change the current FISA law since it already has exclusivity in it. Obama:

In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people.

The government already has "the authority to collect the intelligence it needs to protect the American people." That authority is called FISA, which already allows the Government extremely broad authority to spy on any suspected terrorists. The current law results in virtually no denials of any spying requests. So how can Obama -- echoing the Bush administration -- claim a new law is needed to provide "the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people" when the current FISA law already provides that?

But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility.

This is just false. The new FISA bill that Obama supports vests new categories of warrantless eavesdropping powers in the President (.pdf), and allows the Government, for the first time, to tap physically into U.S. telecommunications networks inside our country with no individual warrant requirement. To claim that this new bill creates "an independent monitor [to] watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people" is truly misleading, since the new FISA bill actually does the opposite -- it frees the Government from exactly that monitoring in all sorts of broad categories.

Why else would Bush and Cheney be so eager to have this bill if it didn't substantially expand the Government's ability to eavesdrop without warrants?

The Inspectors General report also provides a real mechanism for accountability and should not be discounted. It will allow a close look at past misconduct without hurdles that would exist in federal court because of classification issues. The recent investigation (PDF) uncovering the illegal politicization of Justice Department hiring sets a strong example of the accountability that can come from a tough and thorough IG report.

Having the Executive Branch investigate itself for alleged lawbreaking is not "oversight." In our system of Government, government officials and corporations which are accused of breaking the law are subjected to courts of law -- just like everyone else -- not to "investigations" by agencies within their own branches of government with very limited powers. Marcy Wheeler has more on the extremely limited capacity of Inspectors General to investigate lawbreaking at high levels of government.

The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise.

This is the most misleading part of Obama's statement. The "certain surveillance orders [which] will begin to expire later this summer" -- that Obama claims we must maintain -- are warrantless eavesdropping orders that were authorized by the PAA, which Obama voted against last August. As I asked the other day:

Had Obama had his way, there never would have been any PAA in the first place, and therefore, there never would have been any PAA orders possible. Having voted against the PAA last August, how can Obama now claim that he considers it important that the PAA orders not expire? How can he be eager to avoid the expiration of surveillance orders which he opposed authorizing in the first place?

Moreover, the Government already has "the ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States" under the current FISA law. Citing the need for such monitoring in order to justify this new FISA bill is just pure fear-mongering ("you better let us eliminate FISA protections if you want us to keep you safe from the Terrorists"). Obama has always said in the past that "the FISA court works." When did he change his mind and why?

I do so with the firm intention -- once I'm sworn in as president -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

This expression of Obama's "intention" has so many equivocations and vague claims as to be worthless. In a society that lives under the rule of law, government officials and corporations which break our laws are held accountable by courts of law, not by vague promises from politicians of some future "review" and "recommendation" process grounded in claims that we can trust the Leader to do the right thing, whatever he decides in his sole discretion and infinite wisdom that might be. That is no consolation for blocking courts from adjudicating whether laws were broken here, which is what the bill that Obama supports will do.
 

Marian E. (164)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:26 pm

Can't really add anything Sara. Thank you. (Excellent post!!!)
 

Sara S. (70)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:30 pm
It's rare that the prophets of doom can start saying 'we told you so' BEFORE the election has even taken place, but here you go folks.....

Ya think Obama's going to be a better bet than McCain? He might be more appealing, more engaging and more credible but a shafting is a shafting and a backstabber is a backstabber. The system is about 'them' and their agendas and their yes men and pretty boys who sell themselves to the public in return for our votes otherwise known as the mandate to 'rule', the power inherent in the people and legitimacy for any government where we have participated in the election process. In this case that means a process of preselected, unaccountable candidates who do the bidding of the corporations, make promises they cannot keep to the people and then tell us where to go when we complain, change the Constituion because it is just a piece of paper and rubber stamp the arrest and persecution of all protestors. Now. today. In THIS USA. And just to make sure the voting machinery itself is rigged.

That's a high price to pay for a screw, I'd say.

Are you ready to open your eyes and see yet?

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/NOvember
 

Just Carole (327)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:45 pm

Not surprising (but glad you posted this, Sara).

Each day, he "waffles" more to the middle.
 

Sara S. (70)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:45 pm
That wasn't a reply to you Marian!!! The posts crossed. I know well that you are already there... eyes wide open but still smiling :)
 

Marian E. (164)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:50 pm

Yeah, that's my driver's license photo from last year. (The only pic I had without too many pixels.) Don't read too much into the smile.

Thanks Sara.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:44 pm

Thanks, Sara. Noted.
 

Ombretta LittleShadow (400)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:54 pm
Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss....
 

Brenda H. (139)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:44 pm
I'M NOT VOTING FOR EITHER ONE OF THE JERKS!
 

June Marshall (415)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:46 pm
Thanks for posting this Sara! Good post and one to bring what NObama is all about.
 

Blue Bunting (754)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:21 pm
Too late, Sara, only one candidate can be elected and we can't afford John McBu$h.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 7:39 pm

We can't afford ANY president, Blue. The Democrats have already funded the war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan until 2010, so no matter who the voting machines "elect," the crimes against humanity will continue. Either we refuse to vote, or it will look to the world as if we support crimes against humanity. Because no matter who is president, the torture and the human rights atrocities have already been paid for and will continue.

If the Democrats were opposed to the Republicans, they wouldn't still be protecting Bush from impeachment. If the Democrats were opposed to the Republican agenda, knowing full well that two presidential elections in a row were stolen and that absolutely nothing has changed, they would have known that there was a huge risk that Obama might win the popular vote and still not become president, as happened with Gore and Kerry, so they wouldn't have risked funding the wars until 2010 because they wouldn't have wanted to have funded a McCain presidency the way they've funded the Bush presidency.

If we can't afford a McCain presidency, and the Democrats know that there is a risk of a third election in a row being stolen and him becoming our next unelected president, why would they have already funded his presidency? Wouldn't they have withheld the funds until they were sure that their candidate was in the White House?

Can't you see that they don't care?
 

Sara S. (70)
Monday July 7, 2008, 8:40 pm
Its a great song Cate:

There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Except that is looks as if we already have been - fooled again that is! It's never too late to stop being fooled Blue. Hurts like a b*&ch but better than the pain of despair when your vote helped to legitimize the next phase of the NWO. Don't you think?
 

Tere M. (41)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 1:49 am
Thank you Sara! It is real: Democrats = Republicans. ~
 

Pamela R. (185)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:43 am
All politicians have to make concessions and Obama is no exception. As
someone dedicated to restoring the United States of America to the honorable nation we once were, I believe Senator Barack Obama is our
best choice, and I WILL BE voting for him in November!
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:20 am

One of the concessions that Obama has to make is to continue to crimes against humanity in Afghanistan and Iraq, since the Democrats have already funded them until 2010. Do you believe that continuing wars of aggression make us an honorable nation, Pamela?

Have you seen this little video:

War Crimes

While you are entitled to your opinion and nobody wants to take away your right to vote for the war criminal of your choice, some of us do not want to spit on the graves of our fathers who fought and died to put an end to Hitler's wars of aggression in WWII, and will not vote because both candidates are committed to continuing the war crimes and neither one has any choice in the matter because the funds have already been allocated by the Congressional Democrats. And they allocated the funds knowing full well that nothing has changed since 2000 and 2004, and that there is no reason that a third presidential election in a row won't be stolen and McCain become president even if Obama wins the popular vote.

 

Pamela R. (185)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:52 am
I am 100% against war and the U.S.A. should be ashamed of our record.
49,376 Iraqis have lost their lives, 4115 Americans and for what? Oil?
The economy in general? At least Obama will make an effort to withdraw
the troops as soon as possible. Your dedication is contagious, Mark, and
I thank you for your astute observations. Please re-read my post though.
"dedicated to restoring the United States of America to the honorable nation we once were."
 

Linda D. (49)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 12:45 pm
It's a fine line to walk preserving civil liberties and yet watching and listening and gathering intelligence to prevent another 911 from happening. FISA is the foreign intelligence surveillance act, not the American surveillance act. I think it is a good idea to monitor communications and exchange of money between foreign nations, especially hostile ones, and people living here in the United States. Yeah, I want to know what they're up to and what they have planned. Preventing violent acts and protecting the people living in America is high priority. I do want terrorists weeded out and removed. The controversy over warrants is warrantless. Obtaining a warrant is time consuming, and acting promptly is important. Obama is trying to appeal to both anti FISA and pro FISA factions with his clever speeches. McCain at least makes a statement so you know where he stands on an issue. He is also sensitive to abuse by those in power because of what he endured in Vietnam. So I think there is only one jerk and the hint is "waffle man."
 

Shawn olsen (4)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 2:00 pm
The point is Bunting Obama is/was and will not be any different than Clinton would have been. Obama will favor corporations just like the others, why do you think Edwards didn't get any traction? He was too anti-corporate, period. And, Linda --McCain is way scummier than Obama, he has sold his soul to the Devil and Karl Rove to become president. McCain now supports torture, he has flopped on drilling, he has flopped on abortion rights and everything else he previously was such a maverick on. He was never a maverick-just another myth. Do you really think their only spying on terrorists-get a clue lady-there spying on the other side of the political aisle, and groups who oppose their corporate agenda, when they eventually come for you what will you do then? The law was simple and easy before, now they have no rules and it did not take that long to go get a warrant that is also a lie put out by those who want to break the law and are. McCain is not sensitive to anything but is utter drive for power over all of the morals and ethics he supposedly used to have. I would take Obama a million times over before I would take the ultimate waffle'er McBush.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:32 pm

Wouldn't it be nice if we had some say in who will be our president?

Unfortunately, our Constitution does not allow us to vote directly for President or Vice-President. When you vote for the Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate on a ballot, you are really voting for their political party's slate of Electors.

The Electors' names are NOT on the ballot. In some states they are elected, in some they are appointed by the political parties, and in some it is a combination of both, but in any event, they do the actual voting for President and Vice-President, not us.

Of course our votes are counted. Eight percent of all U.S. votes, whether mailed in or cast at the polls, whether case on paper or on voting machines, are counted by computers called central tabulators. These central tabulators are privately owned and programmed by the vendors. They use undetectably mutable software, so there is no way for anyone but the vendors to know if they have been programmed to count the votes accurately or programmed to alter the results undetectably.

Nevertheless, once the results have been announced, the Electors will have an opportunity to vote for President and Vice-President. They will be aware of how the public voted but they have no legal obligation whatsoever to vote the same way that the people they represent voted. They can, if they wish, but they don't have to.
'
And of course the Electoral votes are counted by Congress. Congress has the power to refuse to accept fraudulent Electoral votes, or to decide to accept fraudulent Electoral votes (as Gore did with the fraudulent Florida Electoral votes in 2000). That is entirely up to Congress.

But if the loser doesn't like the decision of Congress, they can appeal to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court Justice is a patronage position. There is no specific qualification for the Supreme Court other than being a crony of the President who appoints you. The Supreme Court can decide to ignore the voters, the Electoral College, and Congress, and install who they wish as president. They are not themselves elected, but they can choose the person who will be able to nominate more Supreme Court justices. There is no way to appeal a Supreme Court decision and only Congress could remove them for bad behavior--and Congress doesn't seem to do that very often.

But I certainly agree that it would be nice if we had some say in who will be our president and I think it's a real shame that we don't.

Not that there's any real difference between the two pro-war candidates of the major parties, who are the only ones with a chance of "winning" the next rigged "election," but it would probably feel sort of good, even if we didn't have much to choose between, to have some say in making that choice.

No in November!

There is ONE thing that we can do. We can refuse to vote until we get honest elections and a real voice in government.

Or we can continue to pretend that we have a voice when we don't. Pretending sounds like fun. Of course it results in millions of people being killed and trillions of dollars in debt, but that's the price we pay for pretending instead of taking things seriously.

 

Carol Simpson (2)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:52 pm
Amen, Mark.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 6:49 pm

Thanks, Carol. That was a typo in my post. It is not eight percent of all votes, but EIGHTY PERCENT OF ALL U.S. VOTES that are "counted" by computers.
 

Will Zachary (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 7:17 pm
you can all be negative if you want.... but i'm voting for obama... regardless... i've seen the alternative and it's not pretty... and for those of you who say you're not voting for either: you lose your right to complain or even voice your opinion. you're part of the problem! this isn't a perfect world, but i'm more excited about the election this fall then i've been in a LONG time... peace! will from ga
 

Will Zachary (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 7:18 pm
you can all be negative if you want.... but i'm voting for obama... regardless... i've seen the alternative and it's not pretty... and for those of you who say you're not voting for either: you lose your right to complain or even voice your opinion. you're part of the problem! this isn't a perfect world, but i'm more excited about the election this fall then i've been in a LONG time... peace! will from ga
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 8:27 pm

Don't feed the trolls.
 

Will Zachary (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 8:45 pm
sorry, this seems to be someone's personal space that i've intruded upon! carry on with your rants and ravesl... i'm off to better endeavors!!! peace!!!!
 

Linda D. (49)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:55 pm
I disagree with Shawn. I believe John McCain to be honorable and an ethical leader. Have you done any research? Been to his web site? He is against torture having lived through it and been crippled by it and knowing how it affects our image in the world. As for spying on terrorists and foreign communications and financial transactions, I say go for it! I want them to uncover sleeper cells. I'm not a foreigner that communicates with Arab countries. I am just an ordinary American citizen, and I have absolutely nothing to hide. Do you? Is that what you are worried about?

Here's an excerpt on McCain from a Fox News interview by Chris Wallace:

"WALLACE: How would you fight the War on Terror differently than it's being fought now?

J. MCCAIN: I would probably announce the closing of Guantanamo Bay. I would move those detainees to Fort Leavenworth. I would announce we will not torture anyone.

I would announce that climate change is a big issue, because we've got some image problems in the world. I think that we've got to understand — diplomatic, intelligence-wise.

Clearly, in the area of, quote, "propaganda," in the area of the war of ideas, we are not winning as much as — well, in some ways we are behind.

Al-Jazeera and others maybe, in the view of some — my view — may sometimes do a better job than we are.

At the end of the day, it's how people make up their minds as to whether they want to embrace our values, our standards, our ideals, or whether they want to go the path of radical Islamic extremism, which is an affront to everything we stand for and believe in.

WALLACE: Senator, you talked about torture. Former CIA Director Tenet now says that the intelligence that they got from harsh interrogation techniques against some of these big Al Qaida types, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — the intelligence they got from them using, reportedly, things like water-boarding, extreme temperatures, was more valuable than all the other CIA and FBI programs.

Were you wrong? I mean, this is the CIA, former CIA director, saying this. Were you wrong to limit what CIA interrogators could do?

J. MCCAIN: A man I admire more than anyone else, General Jack Vessey, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, battlefield commission, told me once — he said, "John, any intelligence information we might gain through the use of torture could never, ever counterbalance the image that it does — the damage that it does to our image in the world."

I agree with him. Look at the war in Algeria. Look, the fact is if you torture someone, they're going to tell you anything they think you want to know. It is an affront to everything we stand for and believe in.

It's interesting to me that every retired military officer, whether it be Colin Powell or whether it be former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff — everybody who's been in war doesn't want to torture