Wednesday February 11, 2009, 2:38 pm
I hope both that you enjoy this article and that the news source meets with the exacting criteria for objectivity that some of you feel is very important. If not on the second point,given AI's record for objectivity, TDB.

Wednesday February 11, 2009, 4:09 pm
Well, Cal - I have seen several statements from some on the forum that they would not accept anything unless it was from a credible source "such as Amnesty International, etc."

Very little wiggle room there.

Wednesday February 11, 2009, 5:47 pm
Why does this not surprise me? Maybe because this isn't the first time Hamas has pulled this kind of crap. Squirm might be a better word than wiggle, Lindsey.

Thursday February 12, 2009, 5:44 am
I saw a list of victims published by Fatah - the number of victims there was about 180. Names were shown.

Thursday February 12, 2009, 6:46 am
Yes thank goodness for AI who at least manage to stay objective and neutral by reporting crimes against humanity caused by both sides.Without a fair trial,to justify the execution of traitors,collaborators and spys on the grounds of SELF DEFENSE due to the danger and suffering they caused is wrong.

Historicaly in war and just after the end,few sides were free of guilt of the executions of spies and collaborators.I suppose Hamas believe that such persons are responsible in part for the deaths of their own whether military or civilian which can be debated in principal but again does not excuse the missing fair trial. I have read that many killed were actualy already held prisoner in a Gaza Prison and after Israeli forces destroyed a prison wall were able at first to flee but later captured again by Hamas.The hate that arises in the heat of battle is nothing new and I can imagine that the bloody scenerio of the dying and dead,military and civilian,was still fresh and done in this climate.Hamas,for some heroes,for others murderers just like in principal the Bielski brothers I suppose.

Thursday February 12, 2009, 7:34 am
This past conflict was disgracefully reported with over politicized hysterical pronouncements of casualty figures and damage reports. The UN, NYT, and AI were among the first casualties of truth. The NYT's framed the story in it's online editions by not changing headlines rather changing casualty numbers like some gruesome MacDonald s with Hamburgers sold. Let's hope that the ICC does not follow suit. I rather hope that we all learn a lesson about the lack of accuracy being reported from terrorist controlled territories.

Thursday February 12, 2009, 12:26 pm
If they can commit these atrocities against their own people,imagine what they are capable of doing to their enemies.
Impossible to negotiate anything with a bunch of murderous thugs like Hamas.

Thursday February 12, 2009, 1:07 pm
Fatah are regarded as enemies of Hamas so torturing & killing them is acceptable.

Of course, lots of people will not condemn Hamas even though they cause an exceptional amount of distress by murder either by killing the victim directly or using them as a human shield.

Friday February 13, 2009, 11:52 am
read this before and it shocks me how cruel people are...I guess it's all over anymore, I just don't and never will understand this. a shame of it all

Friday February 13, 2009, 2:27 pm
It is never about race/colour/creed, it is always about Human Rights. This is my line of thought and always will be. I do not make any difference between people killed by Hamas (Israeli ot Palestinian) or those killed by the IDF. They are all dead anyway in case no-one noticed. If this is meant to rehabilitate the IDF - well, it doesn't because what they wreaked on Gaza was a crime and 2 crimes do not make a right period. So do not try to take the moral high ground which (I think) died when an Israeli killed Rabin and since then I have never been convinced by any Israeli government's true intentions to create a peaceful 2 state solution - in fact, the opposite seems true. They have never given Abu Mazen anything to show for the sacrifices they want from the Palestinians and they have and still continue to build settlements in the West Bank, demonstrating bad faith to start with. They besieged Gaza for months and what do you expect. I am not speaking without experience of such situations. I lived in South Africa for 10 years. What do you expect when you take away every hope from people - life has no meaning and people act consequently - like they did in Soweto and across South Africa. You cannot suppress a people forever and not expect a reaction. I repeat, MURDER IS MURDER whether committed by Hamas or the IDF and guess who holds the record??

Friday February 13, 2009, 2:44 pm
Holding up to what I've said before, terrorists kill and lie. We, at least the civil-minded among us knew that this was the situation. The Hamas greatly exaggerated its losses and caused nearly all the losses themselves. That is what the difference is: It is WHO actually killed the Palestinians, and they were not all killed by Israelis. If they are so hateful that they would kill their own people, then why do they expect sympathy? I have sympathy for the innocents who were killed, not for Hamas who caused all the killing in the first place. All the have to do is leave Israel alone and live in peace, but they are so full of hate they won't do that. Well, I, for one, don't have to believe in the Hamas lies, and won't. Get Hamas out of the way, and maybe there can be peace, but the Palestinians need to want peace.

Friday February 13, 2009, 3:46 pm
Right on Barbara! Time to get off Israel's back for doing what every nation on earth would do to protect and defend the people. Apparently a dictionary is needed here. ummm...Maybe a history book too.

Friday February 13, 2009, 4:44 pm
A history book, Kit? For whom? We are talking about people dying. The last Israeli leader who seemed willing to talk peace was Rabin. Do you deny that the colonies in the West Bank are continuing to expand, Palestinians are being driven out of their homes in Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip was blockaded for months before the war - which conincided with or stopped just before the Israeli elections. The present politicians do not want peace - they want land. What viable state will be created once Israel has decided that it has enough land? BTW who needs a dictionary or History book - you want to talk History - how far back do you want to go - THE STERN GANG?
Murder is murder no matter by whom it is committed!

"Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage-----torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, the bombing of civilians-----which does not change its moral color when it is committed by 'our' side. ...The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." : George Orwell

Friday February 13, 2009, 6:05 pm
I agree with you Jessie Cross.

I do not believe in killing as a punishment during war or peacetime period, but since history was first written spying etc was and is considered a capital crime for obvious reasons and often sentanced with capital punishment.

Both the allieds and the Nazis executed spies etc and is still done in certain countries nowadays.

Barbara K,
I bet you are also against the death penalty being civil minded as you say you are?(dont forget the criminal is also"your own"!!).

And what do you call those Israeli´s for example who attacked etc the British occupational army in 1949....Terrorists, Underground Freedom fighters or Partisans?.I personally believe for example that the Nazis were wrong to call those resisting in the Warsaw ghetto terrorists or is it just a case of which side you are on and who wins in the end?.

Would you consider someone who you trusted but then gave away details to your enemies which resulted in the death of your family and friends "one of your own"?.The four Bielski Brothers(PARTISANS!) didnt thats for sure and also perhaps like Hamas wanted to warn others in order to protec...their own!.Collaborators,spies and traitors are members of the opposing army!.Life imprisonment is a justified penalty.

Kit B,
Gaza is being blocked and cut off and therefore Hamas are resisting... not Tel Aviv is being blocked by Hamas and Israel is resisting!!!!.And to be honest if my countries borders were blocked and patrolled by another countries soldiers I hate to tell you this but I might cause them to have to defend and protect themselves too as injust as that may sound!.We need a lexicon here not a dictionary.

Life is not black and white nor either simply right or wrong.Many here involved with this issue and conflict comments seem to think so I believe.

An extract here from"Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team":

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/bielski.html

"...A group of German soldiers who surrendered to the Bielskis were summarily executed, presumably because there was no way for the partisans to keep prisoners in the field, but also because many partisans, who had suffered the loss of family at the hands of the Nazis, frankly sought revenge.

Ruthlessness sometimes extended to their own: In at least one instance, Zus Bielski executed one of his own officers for leaving a civilian behind, because the Bielski partisans maintained a non-negotiable policy of protecting Jewish civilians...".END.

And I can see here that some will still"throw the first stone"and with conviction!!.

Friday February 13, 2009, 6:07 pm
Jessie Cross, We need a Lexicon for some not a dictionary it seems here!!.

Friday February 13, 2009, 6:30 pm
Thanks Cal for using AI as a source on this subject. It's just a pity that its the exception rather than the rule.

Michael and Jessie; I agree. The fact that Israel is illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank doesn't seem to register with Israels supporters.

There is the right to resist occupation enshrined in law, but that does not include the targetting of civilians , which I totally condemn, whether it is by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah etc, or the IDF.

I am against ANY killing, and support the prosecution of all individuals who break the Geneva conventions and others on the rules of war, just so I make myself clear to those who seem to think otherwise.

Pete

Friday February 13, 2009, 6:46 pm
A relevant article by Fisk I just submitted-

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1047729

Friday February 13, 2009, 8:18 pm
Heh, even if this claim is true, it is miniscule compared with what Israel has been doing, and doing for more tha 60 years!

Israel, GET OUT OF PALESTINE!!! USA, stop supporting Israeli colonialism and Israeli genocide against Palestinian people!!!

FREE PALESTINE FROM ISRAELI OCCUPATION, BLOCKADE AND VIOLENCE!!!

Friday February 13, 2009, 8:20 pm
PS, screw CNN and all other capitalist media! Tha capitalist mndia is the voice of the oligarchy! Let's hear the voice of the masses instead - democratically-controlled media, working class media!

Friday February 13, 2009, 9:35 pm
Directly from Amnesty International's own website:

"Since the end of December 2008, during and after the three-week Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have carried out a deadly campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics, Amnesty International revealed in a new document today."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE21/002/2009/en

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/hamas-waged-deadly-campaign-war-devastated-gaza-20090212

Saturday February 14, 2009, 4:34 am
Listen to Jessie Cross, she is making sense.
Making sense is more important than "taking sides".

Saturday February 14, 2009, 8:52 am
Well, I see the Moronic Anti-American, Anti-Israelis have reared their ugly heads again.

Saturday February 14, 2009, 10:53 am
This is from a letter I got - yes, I am subsbribed - from JVP (Jewish Voice for Peace:
The late Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban would have concurred, "You make peace by talking to your enemies."

And so do a large number of American Jews: 76% said last summer they supported negotiations even with Israelis "worst enemies."

Jewish Voice for Peace and Just Foreign Policy have been calling for talks with Hamas for some time. Last Spring, both organizations collected thousands of signatures in support of President Carter's call to that effect, a call he has renewed.

Talking with some and not to others while sealing off Gaza has been tried for a number of years. This has brought immeasurable suffering to the besieged Palestinians in Gaza and great trauma to the citizens of Sderot in Israel.

We need change.

Tell everyone to sign the Open Letter to Obama. Tell Obama and Mitchell they must talk to everybody.

Tell your friends to sign the Open Letter.
Tell Obama and Mitchell they must to talk with everybody.
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/301/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=1814)


Israeli Committee Against Home Demolition:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_1051.shtml

Lights out in Gaza
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/lightsoutgaza.shtml

You wouldn't know it from
following the mainstream media,
or from listening to any of the US presidential candidates, but some 1.5 million Palestinians are being slowly starved to death, right now, in Gaza. They have been barred from getting the food, fuel, and medical supplies they need to survive. Eighty percent of the population is dependent on food aid.

Survey of economic engagement to end the Israeli occupation:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/economic-engagement.shtml

Saturday February 14, 2009, 3:04 pm
Jessie First link"salsa.democracyinaction"petion is no longer valid.Have signed the second(JVP).

Saturday February 14, 2009, 7:05 pm
Hi Barbara K, wouldn't your comment be more suitable posted here-

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1036622

Saturday February 14, 2009, 7:31 pm
Barbara K..."Ugly heads"??..."..and the Lord god made them all"!!.

Lindsey Thanks for highlighting the subject here again which Cal´s has started less we forget.

They were not"Fellow Palestinians"as they were spies,traitors and collaborators working for Hamas enemies.

Yes action causes reaction and sometimes unfortunetely one hostile act leads to another.But of course two wrongs never make a right whether the one may be very wrong and the other not so wrong or when the one wrong was a massacre and the other wrong a few alleged murders for example!!!.

AI write of"Unlawfull killings".But which authority above all others decides when its lawfull or not...God?.

There may be cases when it is justified to kill or torture but that doesnt make it necessary right!.In the 2nd WW American and British war planes(aswell as the enemy!) dropped millions of tons of Bombs onto cities killing millions of civilians.Was that lawfull killing..lawfull killing of civilians?.The German city of Dresden was even bombed down to the ground after the Germans had surrendered four days earlier first by the British and then two days later by the USA..was that then LAWFULL KILLING!!?.WHO or which Tribunal decided that it was or wasnt a crime or do we have a International Law book of killing somewhere which I have not heard about?!?.My point here is that I dont like this expression"Unlawfull killing" as it clearly brings to notice that there are always definetely cases when kiling is OK,accepted and..lawfull.

Historical massacres(135,000 civilians were killed in one raid at Dresden and there was no German army or resistance) obviously have helped the world in time to accept military attacks of civilian cities-A few years ago Bagdad,Belgrade and now recently Gaza for example.

Spontane and scattered sending of missiles into cities are also war crimes but by no means give justice to trigger off a military invasian of the complete city putting innocent civilians in danger!.When accused of war crimes those responsible on the side of Hamas must also of course be brought to trial but I dont think any will turn themselves in voluntary!.Collaborators etc who missuse friendship and trust and then give info to the enemy which in turn causes kids to loose their parents and parents to loose thier loved ones should also be brought to trial and not executed in my opinion.

We need Judges sitting on a UN War Crime Tribunal which all of those accused on both sides recognise.That wont be easy!.And unlike at"The Hague"things ought to go a lot quicker unlike as with the Serb Leader Slobodan Milosevic who died during his trial in prison!.There again Nazi Doctor Aribert Heim Alias Dr Death never even got to a trial- the top ten all time most wanted Nazi Criminal who lived to be 79yrs as a free man and was never caught-so what are we complaining about!!!?.(Amongst other things he removed organs from victims without anesthesia and injected petrol into viens etc etc).

AI do a real good job but are made of individuals who are only human and who may not always choose the exact right words to describe a situation.I hope all on both sides will get what they deserve.

Sunday February 15, 2009, 5:27 am
Further to what Michael has said, I have seen numerous examples of blame being laid on Hamas for the launching of rockets into Israel in breach of the 6 month ceasefire, when in reality it was groups like Islamic Jihad and Fatahs Al Aqsa brigades who were responsible for the majority of them , as revealed in this June 26th 08 article;-

'' In the weeks since the cease-fire went into effect, six rockets have been launched from Gaza in Israel (thankfully no fatalities), the limited opening of the crossing to allow supply into Gaza has been partially suspended, two Palestinians were killed in IDF operations in the West Bank, and one Palestinian farmer was injured by IDF fire into Gaza.

What this looks like to me is that the various actors are testing the parameters of the new rules of the game. The question is whether any escalation by either side will lead to the collapse of the cease-fire.

The fact that the cease-fire is not extended to the West Bank will be a constant source of friction as Palestinian groups in particular will be under pressure to respond from Gaza to losses in the West Bank. This seems to be what was happening when Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired the first cease-fire breaking rockets after two of their militants were killed in an IDF raid in Nablus. Interestingly, the Fatah affiliated al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade carried out the other rocket attacks, which possibly was a predictable Fatah effort to embarrass Hamas. ''

http://www.prospectsforpeace.com/2008/06/shaky_ceasefire_and_live_webca.html

Sunday February 15, 2009, 4:10 pm
How Social Media War Was Waged in Gaza-Israel Conflict

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" -- David Ben Gurion

Sunday February 15, 2009, 4:17 pm
Interesting interview with a prominent Muslim Imam who states, ""We heartily support Israel's anti-terrorist operation against Hamas in Gaza."

http://www.care2.com/news/member/362859877/1049262

Tuesday February 17, 2009, 8:30 pm
From"Strike The root.com"

"...Guerilla tactics were also the reason Polish Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were able to hold the German forces (including 2,000 Waffen SS) to a standoff for 28 days. The civilian Jews, cold, hungry, and armed with a distressingly low number of stolen pistols, rifles, light machine guns, and Molotov cocktails, never showed their faces to the German tanks, heavy machine guns, artillery, and flame throwers. They would wait in the shadows, attack, and immediately retreat through the maze of buildings, streets, and sewers. They hid in houses and buildings, waiting patiently for a German to enter before opening fire. Only when the Germans made the decision to completely destroy the ghetto did the tide turn in their favor.

The tactics of guerilla warfare have lately been used extensively and with mixed results by Palestinians attempting to resist the Israeli army. Palestinians, much like the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto, have been using rocks, pistols, portable anti-armor rockets, machine guns, and Molotov cocktails against the Israeli army, heavily armed with mobile artillery, light and heavy machine guns, gas grenades, attack helicopters, and fighters (with their attendant bombs and missiles). Much of the hardware the Israelis use has been provided or paid for by the US government. Though the Israelis have been accused of repeated violations of human rights, including firing at unarmed civilians at security checkpoints, repeated use of excessive and unwarranted force in situations where the soldiers' lives were in no serious jeopardy, unleashing attack dogs on Palestinian children, detaining the bodies of Palestinian dead for years at a time (prohibiting the proper religious burial), and the torture of prisoners, the United States has continued its support of them, in the form of billions upon billions of dollars and also in the form of political grandstanding and posturing on behalf of the state of Israel..."