Tuesday April 24, 2012, 5:11 am
This does not surprise me Ty Cal

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 6:40 am
Thank you.

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 7:14 am
Indeed!

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 1:40 pm
Yes, the French, for example, have decided that veiling the face represents a security problem....and I agree with them. Wouldn't you? Would YOU hire a woman in a face veil to work in YOUR business? How about someone in a face veil working at the counter of your bank?

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 4:17 pm
No kidding.

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 5:27 pm
Really? Is that surprising - next we will hear that thy don't like gypsies either

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 6:13 pm
I would, yes pam :) because I believe in being free to wear what you want, including religious attire, if they want to wear it, then let them.

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 7:04 pm
And here in the U.S.... :-(

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 10:01 pm
I believe in assimilation -- when in Rome, do like the Romans. That applies to Muslims and it also applies to Jews and to all other ethnic groups.

This said, the growing Muslim influence in Europe is a welcome counterbalance to the Zionist stranglehold. The Muslims will make it harder for the Zionists to force Europeans to make war in Israel's behalf.

75% to 95% of the public in Europe opposed the 2003 military aggression against Iraq. The rulers of the European countries simply ignored the will of the people and pushed democracy aside. Today, Muslim opposition to the war against Islam makes it harder for the rulers to ignore the people and capitulate to Israeli demands.

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 11:19 pm
I am sorry to hear of this. I hope that, one day soon, we will all (including myself; I know I'm guilty too) stop being so quick to marginalise and stereotype other and learn to appreciate other cultures.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 12:09 am
In Australia the veil is considered to be a security problem.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 12:54 am
Ano N. writes:

> I am sorry to hear of this. I hope that, one day soon, we will all (including myself; I know I'm guilty too) stop being so quick to marginalise and stereotype other and learn to appreciate other cultures.

Thank you! This world is such a fascinating paradoxical beautiful place, but our stereotypes render this world lifeless and predictable. It's like we're living in a cave. We can't even imagine what we are missing.

Other cultures are far from perfect, but they offer us a mirror. We find that our most cherished beliefs -- our belief in war, for example -- are not shared by others. That realization leads us to examine these dysfunctional beliefs, and in this way, we begin to know our true selves. That's when the world opens up to us.

. .

Here is how the great thinker Emerson puts it:

> There is one mind common to all individual men. Every man is an inlet to the same and to all of the same. He that is once admitted to the right of reason is made a freeman of the whole estate. What Plato has thought, he may think; What a saint has felt, he may feel; What at any time has befallen any man, he can understand. Who hath access to this universal mind is a party to all that is or can be done, for this is the only and sovereign agent.

-- Emerson, "History", 1844

. .

Earlier today, I posted an article about Ahmadinejad:

"Iranian woman talks politics with Ahmadinejad -- on car rooftop!".

We in the Ziosphere are trained to see Ahmadinejad as Worse Than Hitler. He is the Great Satan, the Devil Incarnate, etc.. And yet here he is, in his car, greeting the Iranian people, and a young Iranian woman jumps up on the open roof of the car and talks with Ahmadinejad and makes her grievances known.

If this had happened here in the U.S. -- the Land of Freedom -- the woman would have been riddled with bullets before she got within ten feet of the president's car. But in Iran the woman gets to speak with the leader. Iran does not fit our dead stereotypes. If we valued life more, we would abandon our harmful stereotypes and take an interest in REALITY.

Iraq did not fit our stereotypes either, but we found that out only after we had obliterated the country. Our suicidal infatuation with war and death led us to shoot first and ask questions later -- much later. A SANE society would seek to get to know a country BEFORE destroying it.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 5:16 am
Here in Brazil too. Thank you Cal.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 6:54 am
Well, we live in Europe now where there are as many as 54million Muslims, compared to the paltry 2.4million in the US. You people there have no right to cast judgement on what we have to put up with here from many of these Islamists with their arrogant superiority and their demands for special rights. They say right out loud they are intent on taking us over and destroying 'western civilization' from within. They refuse to respect our laws and cultures and have created Sharia zones in many cities where even the police are afraid to enter. How dare AI defend this!

This biased AI report fails to mention how Muslims treat non-Muslims here in their own countries. It is illegal, they fail to mention, for school kids in France to wear ANY religious symbols, including crosses or Jewish skull caps. It is illegal in the UK for anyone in government service to wear crosses or stars of David too.

Here in Spain we have several towns that are now run by Muslims where honor murders occur and the police are afraid to arrest the perpetrators for fear of sparking violent riots. We have 2 Muslim TV stations spewing their anti-western hate 24hrs/day. One of these stations boasts that they preach 'positive hatred of Christianity' to Catholic Spain that has given them homes. No Muslim ruled country has freedom of religion, speech, conscience or press. Islam doesn't allow it. Islam demands death for those who criticize or leave it and for gay people.

In one town Muslims are poisoning dogs as they are 'unclean' and they demand they be made illegal, just as some Muslims in the Netherlands are demanding.

They demand special rights to practice Sharia law and get much of that, at the expense of equality laws in Europe protecting women, for fear of the violence that refusing them would bring.

Muslims who have come here to escape the oppression and intolerance of Islamic ruled lands find they must live in fear for renouncing Islam or converting to Christianity because of the death threats and violence they face.

In one French city, Nimes, the ancient basilica that has had a procession to honor the Virgin Mary for centuries now must have police protection to process around the outside of the church as the neighborhood has been taken over by Muslim immigrants who are flooding in - they are 'offended' by the procession, yet they regularly block the streets to hold their prayers in public and don't give a damn what anyone else thinks. The police fear to stop them.

Muslims in Switzerland are demanding the Swiss remove the white cross from their flag as it 'offends' their religion.

Muslims coming here have high unemployment and the lowest level of education and skills. THAT is why many can't get jobs. Muslim women are only 40% literate. What do they expect? They come here and flood our generous welfare rolls with multiple wives and innumberable children and have nearly bankrupted many countries' systems.

The social minister in tolerant, progressive Denmark made the statement that their once famous social welfare system is near bankruptcy due to the high number of Muslim immigrants using it and now she and her whole family must live with armed guards in hiding.

Due to the Muslim inbreeding they have a high rate of birth defects that drain the public health services. They have, for instance, 1/2 of all the kids in special schools in Copenhagen are Muslims with learning disabilites and mental retardation and 33% of all birth defects in the UK are from Muslims at 5% of the population.

In many EU countries Muslims make up more than a majority of prison inmates, and the soaring hate crimes against Jews and gay people are due to the roving gangs of Muslim youth, who also rape women without headscarves (they call them 'uncovered meat'). Violence against Jews has driven many out of places they once found refuge from the Nazis, and now the same Nazi persecution of them is back, only from Muslims.

A poll of UK Muslims in 2009 found that zero % supported civil rights for gay people and in once famous for its tolerance, Amsterdam, gays live in fear of being attacked and beaten in the streets by Muslim gangs. 100% of all rapes in Oslo for the past 5 years, and 1/3 of all rapes in Copenhagen are by Muslims.

We could go one for pages. This report is the usual 'oh poor Muslims' PC crap poured out by an intimidated media, without the statistics to prove any of it. The FBI reports on religous motivated hate crimes in the US are 67% against Jews (many by Muslims) and only 11% against Muslims.

This bogus report says few Muslim women have jobs? Well, many of them aren't allowed to work or have non-Muslim friends or they risk being killed for 'dishonoring' their primitive family customs.

You have no idea what we have to put up with here. Just wait until Muslim reach 3% of your population and see how they start to take over and make demands for special rights. Already in the US the media fears to report any negative news about Islamist atrocities that take place every day around the world. You can mock and demean Jesus Christ and no one bats an eye, but you cannot say anything critical of Islam's oppression of women, children and gay people - then you're a 'hate monger'. A recent report found that school texts in US schools have bowed to pressure from CAIR, a Muslim Brotherhood front, and now present a whitewashed version of Mohammed as a Christlike figure of love and kindness instead of what even Islamic scripture says he was - a pedophile, mass murderer, who raped captive women, owned a harem of sex slaves, robbed passing caravans, oppressed women and preached hate and violent conquest of the world. These texts now say Islam spread rapidly due to its wonderful message of love and brotherhood instead of the truth of its spread by violence by the sword and the intolerant oppression of those it conquered.(80million non-Muslims were slaughtered in India alone in the Muslim invasion).

How nice it would be if AI and all the other bleeding hearts cared about the many victims of Islam, including many Muslims. Right now Christians are being ethnically cleansed from Muslim ruled lands from Nigeria to Sudan to Egypt to Iran and Iraq to Indonesia - where is your outrage for this? You are such hypocrites. You will defend and coddle the most hateful, murderous oppressive ideology on earth and blame its victims for 'offending' it. It's sickening.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 6:58 am
"This said, the growing Muslim influence in Europe is a welcome counterbalance to the Zionist stranglehold. The Muslims will make it harder for the Zionists to force Europeans to make war in Israel's behalf. "
Charles O.

Rule #4 when defending Islam....when all else fails, blame Jews!

If that's not "scapegoating".....I guess I don't understand what IS.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 7:21 am
Why doesn't Amnesty International tell about the terrible and growing violence, sex crimes, hate crimes against Jews and gays and the increasing intolerance Muslims show as they gather in their Sharia ruled zones and attack native Europeans who still live there, and force women to wear headscarves like they are some inferior beings? If anything, Muslim immigrants have been treated better than the rest of us. You ought to hear the hatred their imams preach against us and our values in their mosques here:
http://www.pi-news.org/2010/08/undercover-mosque-with-subtitles/ Watch this undercover Channel4 TV video of one of England's most popular mosques and hear the hate and bigotry, then hear the lies the imam says when he knows he is speaking to a reporter and camera. Would you put up with this?

Here's an interesting admission from the head of the BBC on why they and the media in general turn a blind eye to the hate from Islamists and why they produce programmes mocking Jesus and Christianity, but only say nice, and often even untrue, things about Islam. The BBC just did a programme highly offensive and blasphemous about Jesus but no one rioted or tried to kill anyone. They also just did a 3 part series on the life of Mohammed, all smoke and mirrors showing him as this wonderful messiah of godly love, when even Islamic writings clearly show he was none of that. That series was written, produced and directed by Muslims - pure propaganda, yet the BBC, whose head of religious programming is Muslim, would NEVER allow any other religion to do the same thing. He admits why - they are afraid of the violence they know Islam produces when it is 'offended' and they fear for their very lives. No wonder people are being mislead into believing nonsense like this silly, biased Amnesty Int'l con job: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106953/Christianity-gets-sensitive-treatment-religions-admits-BBC-chief.html

Muslim immigrants to Europe find far more tolerance and help than any non-Muslim would ever find in moving to one of their lands. No other immigrants demand so many special rights either.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 7:49 am
What exactly Anti-Muslim bias mean? How can one feel safe when a young Islamist looking like Muhammed Merah approaches Jewish school or French soldiers? When Islamists created no-go zones in France and Germany, closed to the police and even fire fighters? When a veiled person is really a gangster, who came to rob a bank?

Hopefully, when Moderate Muslims will start openly and clearly dissociate themselves from Islamist terrorists, the population anger will be focused only on those who really deserve it.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:08 am
pam w. writes:

> Rule #4 when defending Islam....when all else fails, blame Jews!

> If that's not "scapegoating".....I guess I don't understand what IS.

Hello Pam. I'm not "blaming Jews". I'm advocating a BALANCE of influence. It's GOOD that Muslims are becoming strong enough to counterbalance the influence of the Zionists (Jewish fascists).

Am I correct in surmising that European Muslims oppose the war against Islam?

The more opposition to war there is, the better. If the opposition to war is strong enough, Europe's Zionist leaders -- like Sarkozy and Merkel -- will be forced to start putting the interests of their own countries ahead of Israel's mania for war. So some good will come of the Muslim influx: The people of Europe will be empowered to free their countries from the grip of Goldman Sachs and the global plunderers.

Rob and Jay B. tell us that Muslims in Europe persecute other groups, murder women ("honor killings"), censor the media, etc.. So European countries are not enforcing their own laws? Really? If this is true, whose fault is it? I'd say it's the fault of the police.

The police are afraid to enforce the law? Is that what we're supposed to believe? Then hire more police.

We know that many Muslims emigrate to Europe to get away from repressive cultures, so there should be a large number of Muslims eager to support assimilation and end repression. Why not enlist the support of these Muslims in policing the community?

Apparently, the rulers lack the political will to enforce the laws and keep society safe. This is the fault of the ruling elite, not the fault of Muslims.

We live under a fascistic economic system, where all of the wealth is funneled to the top and poured into the bottomless pit of derivatives gambling. We're not supposed to question the malfeasance of our rulers, so we're encouraged to scapegoat other ethnic groups and fight among ourselves. It seems like we are easily manipulated.

Scapegoating Muslims makes no more sense than scapegoating Jews did in the Third Reich. We non-Muslims need to unite with Muslims in opposing the dysfunctional economic system.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:12 am
I went to several Amnesty meetings before I decided it was just a waste of time. The second meeting I attended many of the older original members walked out in disgust- I gave it another chance- but it's just a useless UN style Boy's Club talk shop that has no interest in women's issues.

Fantastic post BTW Rob & Jay- a thousand stars.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:26 am
Bob A. writes:

> Hopefully, when Moderate Muslims will start openly and clearly dissociate themselves from Islamist terrorists, the population anger will be focused only on those who really deserve it.

Moderate Muslims have been openly and clearly condemning terrorists for the last ten years or more, but it has no effect. That tells me that something else is going on, here.

When European countries join in Israel's war against Islam, they undermine whatever influence moderate Muslims may have. The moderates, who believe in European values, come out looking like traitors, because they seem to be supporting governments that are gleefully bombing Muslim lands.

The solution is to end the war against Islam, then hold all people -- including Muslims and Jews -- accountable to the same laws and standards.

If this obvious solution is being ignored, it's because the elite want to continue their war-making and need us to be hopelessly divided. The ruling elite want to keep us occupied with hating Muslims, because our hatred for other ethnic groups blinds us to the real problem: the corruption at the top.

If Muslims can be scapegoated, then other groups can be scapegoated too. Recall the warning from Rev. Niemoeller --

> First they came for the communists, but I wasn't a communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for (fill in the blank)

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:32 am
Oh the Religion of Perpetual Outrage strikes again.

Amnesty International is getting less and less relevant promoting lies and beat ups like this.

Nearly 19,000 mostly Muslim on Muslim acts of terrorism since 9/11-., 785 no go Islamic areas in France. Malmo in Sweden cleared of Jews, Nordic women forced to dye their blonde hair dark, etc; etc;

Amnesty International has lost all credibility with this 'cause'.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:53 am
Charles O, you said: "We know that many Muslims emigrate to Europe to get away from repressive cultures, so there should be a large number of Muslims eager to support assimilation and end repression. Why not enlist the support of these Muslims in policing the community?"

True. Many Muslims have come here to escape from Islam's oppression and primitive tribal customs. I have a good ex-Muslim friend and she is one of those, but she, probably like many, is afraid. She dare not speak out about her hatred of Islam or the fact that she has renounced it for the hateful ideology that it is. She, and many others are victims of it, but it demands they be killed for criticising it or for leaving it. She knows what the Orthodox Muslims are capable of. While converts to Islam prance about praising Allah, the many who convert to Christianity and other religions, or simply want to be free of it, aren't able to do that without risking death.

You should get on some of the ex-Muslim websites where they try to warn people of the dangers of Islam, like www.faithfreedom.org. You might learn something, but it seems many so-called liberals couldn't care less about these victims of Islam, which they know nothing about.

Here is a story on the persecution of Muslims in the UK who have converted to Christianity and how they have to often go into hiding, living in fear of violence and death. This is NOT a religion of peace or tolerance: http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece&date=2011-09-18

I can't answer for Rob and Jay, but I know their comments were spot on! Those of us who live in the EU are very aware of these problems, and like they said, they only mentioned a tiny bit of the many problems we face over here. I suggest, Charles, you do some work yourself. The internet is filled with daily stories of Orthodox Islamists in action here and around the world. You really need to educate yourself.

Your hatred of 'Zionism' is misplaced. Just look at the Nobel prizes for science, physics, medicine etc given to Jews (185!) with only 14million in the world, then look at the number of Nobel prizes won by Muslims (10 - 7 of which were for the Peace prize) with over 1 billion in the world (no one really has any idea how many Muslims there are since they don't record converts and they certainly do not record the 6million who leave it each year, despite the danger in doing so).

If Islam ruled Jewish founded Israel again, it would cease to be the fount of so much scientific achievement and the only free democracy in the whole region. It would descend into the darkness Islam needs in which to thrive. You are terribly ill informed or deluded.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 9:23 am
The European Union was formed, in part, to associate nations with similar values and cultures. ANYONE who immigrates to a new culture MUST be willing to assimilate into the new and NOT expect it to change to accommodate themselves.

Thus, business owners who object to face-veiled women are put on the defensive, even though their customers at the bank, restaurant, etc, may find themselves using other businesses. Vicky P. has the typical rosy attitude of tolerance which develops far away from the situations Rob & Jay describe...very REAL situations which have everything to do with refusing to recognize the values of the nation which has accepted them.

Read Bob A;s comment....I agree. WHEN A MASKED PERSON ENTERS A BANK, WE ASSUME A ROBBERY IS IN PROGRESS!

Europeans see themselves backed into a corner, watching as their culture, values and history are being threatened.

Imagine yourself in that situation. Really, REALLY imagine it.....and then tell me you can criticize anyone who looks with a jaundiced eye at immigrant Muslims.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 9:33 am
Amnesty-Shamnesty
@Charles O
quote...We non-Muslims need to unite with Muslims in opposing the dysfunctional economic system. ...Unquote

What a load of bollocks

Listen to islam
The most prominent Muslim scholar of the 20th century, Sheikh Abu Ala Maududi--- “Islam wishes to destroy all states and governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of Islam.”
and another mufti says
A Muslim's primary objective is the Deen of Islam.He is spurred on by his religion and not his ethnicity or geographical location.He is a Muslim first and then a citizen.Love for one's home country is only natural. However,celebrations marking independent,etc. do not have any scope in Islam. These are Kuffaar-type
celebrations and should be avoided.Participating or even witnessing such celebrations is prohibited.
Hasan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood - "There are many levels of jihad, including mere "interior spiritual struggle," which he deemed the lowest level. According to al-Banna, waging warfare against the infidels is the highest expression of fidelity.
Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes and pigs, not only the Jews.
Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.”
yousef Al Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist organization, the Muslim Brothers, urged on Al Jazeera TV (Jan. 9, 2009) Muslims to kill the Jews, not only in Israel but also worldwide. He added, “No peace can be made between us (Muslims) and the non-believers. This what our holy book says. This what Allah says.”
Ayatollah Khomeini also said: “Mehrab (a mosque) means a place of war, a place of fighting. Out of the mosques, wars should proceed. Just as all the wars of Islam proceeded out of the mosques. The prophet had a sword to kill people.
Prime minister Erdogan of Turkey- there is no moderate islam-- islam is islam and thats it
Tarek Ramadan Bilelefeld, Germany (May 21, 2008) “My brothers and sisters, we must exploit the so-called democracy and freedom of speech here in the West to reach our goals. Our Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and the Koran teach us that we must use every conceivable means and opportunity to defeat the enemies of Allah. Tell the infidels in public, we respect your laws and your constitutions, which we Muslims believe that these are as worthless as the paper they are written on. The only law we must respect and apply is the Shari’s.”

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 9:55 am
Thank you for your response, Carola M..

But my question remains: Why are Europe's rulers refusing to enforce the law? Aren't there laws against persecuting people and stalking people and murdering people? Do you want us to believe that the police allow Muslims to freely violate these laws?

Again, something very strange is happening here. The rulers seem to be playing both sides against the middle. I remember 1999. The KLA, a gang of Islamic narco-terrorists, was attempting to take over Kosovo. Yugoslavia was resisting. Incredibly, the rulers of the major European powers sided with the KLA! They bombed Yugoslavia for months and finally dismembered the country. Then they installed the KLA in Kosovo. They claimed that they were doing this to avert "ethnic cleansing", but the real ethnic eradication occurred when the KLA came to power. 200,000 fled for their lives, and many historic Christian churches were burned. The rulers of France and Britain then congratulated themselves.

Why this policy of supporting the worst elements of Islam and even making war in behalf of these terrorists? What was wrong with the Yugoslav approach: Enforcing the law and holding everyone to the same standard?

And Yugoslavia is not an isolated example. In the 1980s, under "Operation Cyclone", Reagan's CIA funded, armed, and trained drug-running Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan -- the "Mujahedeen". The U.S. even gave these terrorists Stinger Missiles, which are used to shoot down planes and helicopters. Reagan's operation cost U.S. taxpayers $6,000,000,000. The CIA built the caverns at Tora Bora. Osama bin Laden was one of the beneficiaries of Reagan's largesse.

In 2003, the Ziosphere -- the U.S., Britain, France and other satellites of Israel -- destroyed the secular regime in Iraq and opened Iraq up for Al Qaeda. The U.S. blitzkrieg turned the country into a vast breeding ground for terror.

In 2011, NATO handed Libya over to Islamists, after reducing the country to rubble and killing 30,000. Gadafi, like Saddam, had tried to conciliate NATO and meet its demands. Like Iraq, Libya had abandoned its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Once again, death and destruction was the reward for conciliation.

Now the Ziosphere is attempting to destroy secular rule in Syria. It is arming and supporting Islamists who are allied with Al Qaeda. If these radicals gain power, Syria's Christians will be forced to flee.

This is not Islam doing this: This is our own rulers, acting on policies that are absolutely suicidal.

How do you explain it?

I suspect that our rulers are deliberately setting Muslims up for a fall. The rulers need a scapegoat to deflect attention away from their own malfeasance and boundless corruption. So they allow Muslim thugs to run wild, knowing that this will have a corrupting influence on Muslim society and will eventually lead to a backlash against Muslims.

I notice that the Islam Haters here offer no solutions. They seem to rejoice every time a woman is murdered by her Muslim relatives -- because the crime enables them to feel superior to Muslims? Why do the Haters reject the obvious solution: Enforcing the law and holding everyone to the same standard?

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:08 am
Joys of Muslim Women

by Nonie Darwish

In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 7 year old, consummating the marriage by 9. The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.

To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses. Often after a woman has been raped, the family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives ‘at will, and the man does not have to say why he has beaten her.

The husband is permitted to have 4 wives and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.

The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.

In the Western World (America), Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her. It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending US and Canadian Universities are now marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to Shariah law.

Ripping the West in Two. Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:17 am
Charles....as is often the case....you are blaming the Europeans!

Blame the criminals!

Blame the men who insist on Sharia law so they can beat their wives. Blame the Muslims who insist they have the right to mob/block public streets in Paris so they can pray....and, by the way, make a decidedly passive-aggressive statement of power.

I'll grant you this....Europeans ARE bending over in an effort to be "politically correct" and to silence the cries of the "RELIGION OF THE PERPETUALLY OFFENDED". Thus we have words such as "ISLAMOPHOBIC" and "MUSLIM HATERS."

Your "Muslims are being set up as scapegoats" is so inaccurate that I cannot believe you actually intend for us to swallow it. Apparently, you didn't read Rob & Jay's comments above. I suggest you do....and then ask yourself about these "guiltless Muslims."

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:22 am
Hello Tommy S. --

If you're trying to terrify me with these alleged "quotes", you've failed. I have faith in Enlightenment principles and in my own spiritual development: There is no danger that I will convert to Islam anytime soon!

I've seen this all before -- in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s and 1980s, when we demonized communists in exactly the same way that you demonize Muslims. We were trained to regard communists as Unstoppable Superhuman Demons who were hell-bent on Taking Over The World. And there was a Commie hiding under every bed. We had more than ten thousand nuclear bombs, but even that was not enough to stop the Commies. So we spent hundreds of billions of dollars on armament. The military spending under Reagan quadrupled our national debt.

Later, I found out that it was all a lie. The Soviets were barely able to keep their own country afloat -- much less Take Over The World.

> Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.

-- General Douglas MacArthur

. .

Now that the Soviet Union is no more, our war racketeers need a new way to frighten us and extort hundreds of billions of dollars from the productive economy. So they invented "Islam!". Like the Commies, the Mooslies are "Unstoppable Superhuman Demons" who are about to "Gobble Us Up".

In reality, Muslims are fallible human beings like the rest of us. Muslims have very limited resources, and they stand divided.

The U.S. spends a hundred times as much on war-making as Iran does. It spends more than all other countries on the planet combined. It runs a global military empire, the biggest empire in history, and it is constantly making war. It has every WMD ever invented. How can Muslims compete with that?

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:35 am
RIGHT---once again....it's not the Muslims who are creating these problems! OH NO!

(Rule #1....Deny, deny deny. If someone quotes a source....declare it an "ISLAMIC HATE SITE." If it turns out that the site is actually FROM Muslims or a deed is proven to be committed BY Muslims....announce that they are MISUNDERSTANDING "true" Islam! Insult character, intelligence, knowledge or anything possible to throw doubt on the other person's intelligence. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.

#2...When logic fails, INSULT the person making the statement. Insult them....call them "racist," "haters"...whatever words you can find to vilify them. Insult character, intelligence, knowledge or anything possible to throw doubt on the other person's intelligence. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.


Then, return to rule #1. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.

#3...SMOKESCREEN....whenever logic or truth fail.....smokescreen! Change the subject. Accuse Western society or Christianity or, whenever possible....ACCUSE ISRAEL! )

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:35 am
pam w. writes:

> Blame the men who insist on Sharia law so they can beat their wives.

No: I blame the politicians who insist on capitulating to the demands of the wife-beaters!

My answer to the wife-beaters is "Insist away! It will get you nowhere!" If they beat their wives, they should be in prison. Why do you want us to take their demands seriously?

. .

And Beatrice B. writes:

> the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.

Unfortunately, our liberty has already been "ripped in two" -- by NDAA 2012 and Obama's policy of assassination and perpetual detention without trial or charge. And this was not the work of Muslims: This was done by our own politicians, many of them adoring slaves of Israel.

A goal, in itself, means nothing. I can have the "goal" of flying to the moon. Does that mean I am going to get there? Why not have your OWN goals, the goal of preserving religious freedom, for example? Why do you think your own goals are less potent than the goals of some radical idiot?

Apparently, you have given in to fear. If Muslims didn't exist, you would invent some other group to be afraid of -- blacks, Arabs, Jews. Fear is a drug, and once you start using this drug, you can never have enough. Break this addiction! Just say no! Put courage in the place of fear. Put less faith in war and more faith in yourself.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:58 am
pam w. writes:

> Charles....as is often the case....you are blaming the Europeans! Blame the criminals!

In a democracy, the people are responsible for the policies of the country. So yes, it is proper to blame Europeans for what happens in Europe.

I do blame the criminals -- who come in all ethnic flavors, by the way. But when the politicians collaborate with the criminals and allow the criminals to act with impunity, then we need to blame the politicians as well: They are in league with the criminal class.

I asked Carola why she is not willing to support the obvious solution: Enforcing the law and holding all people accountable to the same standard. I'll ask you the same question.

Tolerance means openness and engagement on a level playing field. It does not mean surrender or capitulation or acceptance of every practice, however injurious.

Some people here seem to be blinded by hate. Giving up this form of blindness does not mean that we have to give up all standards and values! We can treat others fairly while continuing to defend and assert our own moral and political values.

Perhaps the haters here cling to hatred because they have no values of their own to assert. I suspect that they secretly envy the Muslims they demonize. They see themselves as impotent, so they transfer all power and responsibility to the Muslims.

Find your own power, people! Stop projecting your power onto others! Europeans are responsible for Europe. If you are European, accept your responsibility and use it wisely! Use it to create a decent society where all can live comfortably.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 11:00 am
If Muslims didn't exist, you would invent some other group to be afraid of -- blacks, Arabs, Jews. Fear is a drug, and once you start using this drug, you can never have enough. Break this addiction! Just say no! Put courage in the place of fear. Put less faith in war and more faith in yourself.

+++++++++++ I realize you were addressing Beatrice but, if I may....don't you think this statement is just a TAD judgmental, not to mention impossibly naive?

Would you have said the same to German Jews in 1935?

Aren't you at ALL capable of seeing that there is a valid and growing threat to Europeans and the West from Islam? Do you deny the oppression they impose not ONLY on their own members but to Christians, Jews, B'Hais and many others who are unfortunate enough to live in Islamic countries?

You are blaming the victims....and ignoring the objectives of Islam.

Obviously, you're living in a dream world....you remind me of a story a Jewish friend told me. In the middle 1930s, the family patriarch told everyone they had to leave Germany because a terrible threat was growing under the leadership of Hitler. The rest of the family denied the threat, insisted their neighbors were far too intelligent, civilized, etc, to ever allow such a thing to happen. A few of the family left with Mr. Ben Menehem and went to the middle-east, where they survived the war. The rest of the family was slaughtered.

Ignoring the human capacity for religiously-fueled violence and aggression is dangerous and stupid. Remember the old saying about "Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it?"

Pay attention, Charles. It's almost impossible for me to believe you don't know the motives of Islam...they tell us quite candidly in the Quran & hadiths, etc. Lying to infidels is a clear direction...as are instructions to convert the earth.

Standing on guard is NOT "hatred" or an "addiction to fear" It's simple common sense. I wouldn't walk barefoot in Australian forests and I won't trust the motives of Islam. I don't "hate" venomous snakes and I don't "hate" Muslims, either. I also lock my doors at night....don't you? It's just common sense.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 1:27 pm


As Norway proceeds.. the major media zombie networks BBC CNN.. etc. are falling all over them selves daily with smartypants grins on their faces trying to carry on the revolutionary zeal in supporting master couterfeit
sensitivities at the root of islamic progression through the well know stages of jihadi intent.....
Hopfully more will become aware of their dhimitude as they realize that the charity meals they support will have a shocking main course ..... them.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 2:51 pm
hey charles,
your zionist theory totally makes sense. the zionists are setting up islamist fundamentalist theocracies that want to destroy israel and here i thought "zionist" means someone who wants to go there and live there and supports israel as a state.

but then, what IS a zionist if your theory is correct?

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 2:56 pm
Is this part of an overall move by European nations to restrict immigration? Seems like the U.S. is hardly the leader in immigration reform, much less qualified to give advice on the topic.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 3:01 pm
lets talk about marginalized. who's marginalizing muslims? the muslims. they're refusing to assimilate.

muslim men marginalize muslim women. they are legally half a man. they can't leave home without a man's permission, not even just to run to the store for diapers or something. the quran says it's fine to beat your wife. uncle mo was a sick puppy who married a 6 year old.

i may like to embrace some culture other than my own but it sure as hell won't be one that would treat me like a stupid child, cut off chunks of my genitals, require me to spread my legs on command by my husband, and force me to have no identity to anyone outside my immediate family, oh, and i just read if i did by some miracle be allowed to work i'd have to BREASTFEED my coworkers? wtf?

the same way some parasites or lethal bacteria kills the host, that's the relationship of islam and the eu. the eu is sick and dying. would you say oh poor bacterias if a sick person took antibiotics? ok then lay down and die, democracy, cause that's what they're about.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 3:02 pm
Charles, roughly a third of all Jews in Europe were killed by the NAzis in Europe during World War 2 and many more emigrated. What type of "Zionist stranglehold", besides the IMAGINARY one that has gotten caught between your ears somehow are you referring to?

Why are the Zionists always the bogeymen for you when you express yourself?

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 3:10 pm
If you passed over it, read Rob and Jay B.'s comment. It is incredibly enlightening.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 3:49 pm
Would these persecuted Muslims be the ones in various cities in the UK who have declared Sharia Law? Would this be the Muslims who have taken over a section of Paris to pray and interfere with the local businesses and people? Would this be the Muslims who have moved into Sweden and forced Jews out of Malmo and the Muslims that the police said are responsible for all the rapes committed? Would this be the Muslims in the Netherlands where a senior member of the EU suggested the Jews leave because their safety could not be guaranteed? Where 5 Moroccan Muslim girls beat up a Jewish girl and it took a large public outcry before the ringleader was suspended from school?

Yes, where there are people of different ethnic origins then there will be misunderstandings and dislikes and, I am sure, some anti-Muslim feelings. You might as well say that there are people who don't like dogs or dwarves.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 3:59 pm
Charles, as you declare "Zionists (Jewish fascists)." you have to conclude that Arab Nationalists are Arab fascists, because Jews have more rights to have their own state in The Land of Israel (a.k.a. Palestine), than Arabs.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 4:04 pm
When smoe activist Muslims demand Sharia law to be introduced to Russia and promise "rivers of blood" if rejected, shouldn't they expect some bias against that to happen?

When Arabs managed to squeeze UN every year to help Arab refugees FOREVER, they are creating a negative reaction. Charles, don't bother to blame Zionists: Israel accepted more Jewish refugees from Arab countries than the number of Arabs who left Israel.

And no, I don't believe that Zionists forced UN to pay Arab refugee to make people to dislike Arab cause, in case you get this creative idea.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 4:08 pm
I've asked the haters what their solution is. They offer none, apart from a boundless escalation of hatred.

We were here before, seventy years ago. The same sort of arguments were used to seduce people into hating a particular religion and culture. The result was a world war, with tens of millions dead. I do not want to see a repeat performance. That's why I believe that it is necessary to firmly resist the seductive arguments of the haters.

I've asked the haters why they reject the obvious solution: enforcing the law and holding all people accountable to the same standard. I have yet to receive an answer.

The haters aren't interested in equal rights and diversity and the rule of law: They require supremacy, it seems. Well, they can't have it. Ethnic supremacy is a dismal failure, as Israel demonstrates.

Bob A. warns us that women wearing burkhas can get away with robbing banks. Really, Bob? How often has that happened, in the last ten years say? The bank robbers we need to be concerned about are on Wall Street and the Federal Reserve. Trillions of dollars have been stolen. But we're not interested in holding the real criminals accountable: We're too busy attacking Muslims.

Yes "Rob and Jay B.'s comment ... is incredibly enlightening" if you're addicted to the Fear and Hate drugs. I'm not. To me, an "enlightened" comment is a comment that helps us to live in peace with one another.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 4:40 pm
Cousin It A. writes:

> what IS a zionist if your theory is correct?

According to the dictionary, "zionism" is

> a political movement for the establishment and support of a national homeland for Jews in Palestine, now concerned chiefly with the development of the modern state of Israel

That's like saying that Communism is "a belief in sharing". Tell that definition to the residents of Stalin's gulag! The victims of Zionism, like the victims of Stalinism, see the practice, not the theory, and the practice is horrific. Millions of people have been kept under military occupation for the last 44 years. How can anyone find this behavior acceptable?

But that savage and bloody occupation is just the tip of the iceberg. The trillion-dollar holocaust we created in Iraq was mainly the work of Israel-firsters -- Richard Perle, William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Norman Podhoretz and many others. So a million Iraqis are dead and four million are refugees, because of Israel's insatiable appetite for war. And now Israel is insisting that we create an even bigger holocaust in neighboring Iran. The Zionist contingent at Care2 also seems to support the take-over of Syria by Islamist forces. Where will the hundreds of thousands of Syrian Christians flee to, when the ZIonists get their wish?

Prior to the Zionist take-over in Palestine, Jews were spread throughout the Middle East. The entire Middle East was their homeland. Zionism has shrunk that homeland to a tiny strip of bitterly contested land, the result being that Jews now hide behind a 24-foot-high concrete wall, and the moral capital that Jews accumulated over the centuries has been squandered. That's Zionism.

We see Zionism here in the U.S. when our corrupt politicians fawn all over Netanyahu and beg to make war and destroy yet another country in Israel's behalf.

We see Zionism when our masked media censor the news or tilt the news in Israel's favor.

We see Zionism in the total lack of accountability at the top. A million people dead in Iraq, one of the worst war-crimes of the century, and no one has been penalized or even criticized! We are required to treat Zionists as if they are Born Without Sin.

We see Zionism when the rule of law becomes a farce, because of the double-standard towards Israel.

And we see Zionism when the government quietly abolishes the Bill of Rights, so that we have no ability to complain when the government shoves the next War For Israel down our throats.

Zionism is Jewish fascism. Like other forms of fascism, it brings ruin to the people it pretends to champion. It is the ideology of national suicide, and indeed, Zionist policy in Palestine has been suicidal from the start.

If I were Jewish, I would be far more strident in my opposition to Zionism. I would remember that my parents and grandparents suffered under a fascist reign of terror, and I would vehemently oppose the usurpation and exploitation of my ethnicity and religion by a new generation of fascist war-addicts.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 5:03 pm


I'm reminded of the clip on another piece of the girl journalist returning to her home town.. .. she ; dressed quite normally; walks along side a parade of black flag carrying bearded chaps crowing death and terror to the people of england ( this in an english city); these followed by the black birds of tent fashion.. who tell our journalist girl that she is a naked whore slut devil who can expect a very dark painful future when They come to power....Muslim victims all ,I suppose... the ice is cracking mo .. like Mick sang.. you better button your lip ...baby. this pasty skinned little island is full of people who have historically eaten whole continents of clowns like you... and I don't think they will wait like the frog in hot water ...much longer...
muslim victims indeed!

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 8:08 pm
seems to me that the headline is correct - "anti-muslim bias" suggests a pro-muslim attitude. europe, largely, i suspect, for reasons of making nice to the bullies so they'll leave us alone, have shown extraordinary tolerance to the muslim community. extremist islamists really do make their fellow moderate muslims, as well as everyone else, feel increasingly threatened.
the whole burqa fashion is irrelevant outside the dessert, and serves merely to promote & collude with misogyny.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 9:06 pm
The question remains: Why are the haters unwilling to support the obvious solution: Enforcing the law, with the SAME standards applied to everyone?

It seems to me that the haters are not interested in solutions. Rather, they are using abhorrent Muslim customs as a pretext for waging war against our religious freedom.

Religious freedom was one of the founding principles of America. It has a track record of success. So the haters are trying to destroy something that works -- and they have no alternative to offer. That's one reason why I so strongly oppose them.

I return to the words of Reverend Niemoeller:

> First they came for the communists, and I wasn't a communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for (fill in the blank). .... Then they came for me, and by then, there was no one left to speak out.

Once we give in to the haters, we are on a slippery slope. The haters will not stop with banning just one religion. Who will be their next target? Catholics? Pagans? Quakers? Before long, we will find ourselves back in the Middle Ages, fearing one another, trusting no one, burning heretics at the stake. That's not the kind of society I want to live in.

I have no particular sympathy for Muslims, but Muslims are not the ultimate victims here. Our entire society becomes a victim, if we destroy our religious freedom and surrender to the haters. Our society becomes narrow, mean, fearful, vengeful. I would rather live in a society inspired by generosity and courage.

Should burkhas be banned? Iran has a dress code, so maybe we in the Ziosphere should have a dress code too. At the same time, I get nervous when we give the government the power to control what clothes we may wear. I would like to see more freedom in Islamic countries, and, by the same token, I want to preserve what freedom we have left here in the U.S., so I am not eager to see dress codes enacted.

The more the haters rave about Islam, the more they reveal their own narrowness and meanness. Justice and logic is not on their side, and they seem to know it. Hatred is all they have, so they wallow in it. Count me out of their pity-party.

Enforce the law! Hold everyone to the same standards! Problem solved.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 9:52 pm
Not a surprise and also can't blame them. I would feel the same if I were a Danish or a Norwegian and the editors of my country's newspaper are threatened because they "dare" to publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed, or what about Theo Van Gogh being killed because of the movie he did with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and actually she had to live in hidding because of the same movie. Demanding special treatment because of their faith for example is a direct attack to democracy where we are equal and have the same rights. If they don;t like the West, they should not live in a western capitalist economy. Instead of adapting to the western values, many of them bring with them their intolerance and derogatory treatment to women and their disdain to Christianity. Just as I criticize the way the west invades the Middle-East and their blind and total support to Israel despite their continual violations of international laws of no invasion and their almost Nazi treatment to Palestinians, so I criticize the fact that an group of people move to Europe not to embrace the new culture and to respect and be grateful to the people and the country that are opening their doors to them, but to demand changes, special treatment, criticize, thread, etc. their hosts and to cause problems. I remember the number of women being raped in Sydney if I'm not mistaken by some Lebanese Muslims and when caught they explained their acts by saying that the Australian women deserved it because they are all whores because if how they dress. Certainly not all Muslims are like that, but nobody has the time to investigate so it's quite normal to generalize and of course react to the situation that could be real or could be an availability heuristic.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 10:04 pm
charles o when they try and force muslims to obey the laws of the land then you get idiots like the ai saying poor abused muslims. muslims need to be sent back to their countries where they can follow their idiot laws and not interfere with others. they refuse to join in with other groups and will kill to keep others away. probably because the men are scared their women will find out what pricks they are and bolt. ship the men back and ask the women if they want to stay. muslims are in no way willing to join the rest of the world segregate them and let them go back to killing each other. keep the rest of us away from them.

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 11:09 pm
there should be ways to live peaceably together without either group feeling threatened and thus acting out their fears via discrimination...

Wednesday April 25, 2012, 11:56 pm
It is a sad thing that there is any discrimination for any reason. When I moved to Australia and took out citizenship I swore to respect the laws of Australia and recognized that it was the only law. This is fundamental for everyone that comes here and to respect the traditions and culture of a multi-cultural Australia.

There are many people here from every country and it is not unusual to see women in head coverings and men in robes. They are respected by law. unfortunately individuals are discriminatory and there are government departments to address this.

I a pleased to say that most people find the life here so relaxed that people tend to get along with only the occasional confrontations.

It is a sad fact of life that when people are different there is always some form of discrimination. At least in this western world people have the option to assimilate or to maintain their own religions without governmental restrictions.

Muslims are lucky to be in Europe at this time. Back in the 1400-1800s if you were a Jew you were locked into a ghetto at night and during the day you had to wear a hat of shame. The antipathy toward Muslims was huge. At lease there are no particular anti-Islam laws like convert or be burned at the stake. Also no Islam tax like the Jew tax.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 12:47 am
J.L. A. writes:

> there should be ways to live peaceably together without either group feeling threatened and thus acting out their fears via discrimination...

I absolutely agree, J.L. A.! However, many of us have been trained to believe that living peaceably together is not possible.

Who gains from this pernicious defeatist ideology of ethnic supremacy and separation? -- the war industry and the criminals who exploit our divisions and our xenophobia. Who loses? -- we do. And the more we lose, the more we embrace this self-defeating ideology of hatred and war, so we end up on a downwards spiral going straight to hell.

To get off of this spiral, we have to be willing to use our minds. Specifically, we have to be willing to question our infatuation with defeatism and cynicism. We will then see that we have been lied to. All of the strife is pointless, needless and stupid. The people we have been trained to Fear and Hate turn out to be a lot like us.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 12:54 am
Charles--Zionism is not Jewish fascism, it is the national movement of Jewish liberation, not unlike any other nationalist movement.


Q: WHY ARE YOU LYING AGAIN ON ZIONISM, CHARLES???


Here is a definition of Zionism for your prejudiced mind and for fair minded readers also from several sources:

Wikipedia:

Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity and opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be liberated from anti-Semitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that has occurred in other societies.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.


From Answers.com

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/zionism#ixzz1t88BXy6x
http://www.answers.com/topic/zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

From Merriam-Webster;

Definition of ZIONISM

: an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

SO, WHIY IS CHARLES TRYING TO DISTORT THE MEANING OF THE TERM???
Let's ask himt he same questions he asks others:
The question remains: Why are the haters unwilling to support the obvious solution: Enforcing the law, with the SAME standards applied to everyone?

Why do some people deserve a homeland and not others? Who is Charles or any other member of the Care2 Anti-Israel crew REALLY, to make that determination, and why are human rights so selective for them???

Why doesn't Charles and his anti-Israel crew rail against European colonialism in the Americas both modern and historic which has cost the Native peoples their homelands, dignity, and self expression as nations.

Does Charles cast the Chinese as racists towards Tibetan independence which many of us at Care 2 hold dear also? I haven't seen anything on this. Where is the outrage on the suppression of Tibetan and the type and volumes of emotional gut wrenching testimonies that we see here and in other posts from Charles and his anti-Jew Crew about Zionism?

What is so special about Zionism Charles, as if it is the only form of nationalism that you don't like---
Hmmmm..maybe it is.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:04 am
Cristina M. writes:

> Just as I criticize the way the west invades the Middle-East and their blind and total support to Israel despite their continual violations of international laws of no invasion and their almost Nazi treatment to Palestinians, so I criticize the fact that an group of people move to Europe not to embrace the new culture and to respect and be grateful to the people and the country that are opening their doors to them, but to demand changes, special treatment, criticize, thread, etc. their hosts and to cause problems.

I like your balanced approach, Cristina. I too advocate assimilation, both for Muslims and for Jews. The disaster in Palestine is a consequence of the Zionist rejection of assimilation.

I really don't care what demands European Muslims may make. All such demands should be ignored. My concern is with the larger society. We need to treat people fairly, and we need to find the courage to live WITH other people and engage other people. When we hide behind a wall of hatred, we may hurt Muslims, but mainly, we hurt ourselves. It's sad to see this self-destructive infatuation with hatred spreading: Why are we doing this to ourselves?! We should be confident, open, generous, assertive. Instead, we cower in our cave and hurl vicious insults at those who refuse to cower with us. What a sad spectacle!

My concern in Palestine is similar. The physical damage the Zionists have inflicted on millions of Palestinians is horrific, but the spiritual damage the Zionists have inflicted on themselves is even more chilling. Who envies these soulless war-makers? Not me! Palestine was actually not their first victim; their first victim was cosmopolitan Jewish culture. So under the guise of "Protecting The Jews", they have destroyed much that was Jewish. And they are too stupid to grasp the irony!

This world is governed by a simple law: As you sow, so you reap. As you do unto others, so it is done unto you. The perpetrators of ethnic division and religious war are destroying themselves. They're reaping the whirlwind that they themselves create.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:24 am
Charles, cosmopolitan Jewish culture as it existed before 1948 was destroyed largely by the Nazis. Your knowledge of Jewish cultural history is appalling.

No one is saying that Israel policies are in line with classic Zionism, but most Israel government officials are not classic Zionists either. Palestinians have been suppressed by those acting in the name of Zionism, pseudo-Zionists, if you will. Not unlike Native cultures in the Americas, Tibetans in their homeland, Kurds in the areas of syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey, and others, the Palestinians also have a right to a homeland, but don't have a singular claim on being the only suppressed people int he world. Some folks here write as if they are!

NOT the truth, folks, not the truth. Charles keeps ducking my good questions, and that's a story all its' own.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:34 am


I use to support amnesty International but I have stopped because 90% of the time they are not there and they say things who do not make sense. Try living with Muslims in an european city...try teaching them....see what pressure the girls are under....they have no idea....

This culture is made to destroy women in any way they can.....
Schools now have to have contact point with a safe house for these girls or women because if they dont do what there father,brothers,husband wants they not only have a very harsh life by beating or other means but they will be killed!

Another point that they forget is that women now have also been trained to be terrorist....even when they are pregnant as my husband found out on one of his business trip....

So dont be fooled by ammesty international!

Also if they dont like it....well go to an arab country where they will be most welcome..BUT WILL NOT HAVE THE BENEFITS THAT THEY HAVE IN EUROPE...ESPECIALLY MONEY!

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:36 am
Cal M. asks:

> Why do some people deserve a homeland and not others?

NO ONE "deserves" a "homeland". By this, I mean that NO ONE has a right to seize land held by another people and carve a "homeland" for themselves out of that stolen land. NO ONE "deserves" to acquire stolen property.

"Deserving" is irrelevant. I may think I "deserve" a million dollars. Does that belief give me a right to steal a million dollars from you?

I ask what does the least amount of harm. I have no objection to Jews moving to Palestine -- as long as the Jewish immigrants are willing to assimilate with the people already living there. I object only when the immigrants come up with a cynical supremacist ideology that justifies massacres, assassinations, terror, war and every other crime. I object because I care about the people being harmed by this insane ideology, not because I have a theory about who "deserves" what.

. .

Cal M. writes:

> Why doesn't Charles and his anti-Israel crew rail against European colonialism in the Americas both modern and historic which has cost the Native peoples their homelands, dignity, and self expression as nations.

> Does Charles cast the Chinese as racists towards Tibetan independence which many of us at Care 2 hold dear also?

European colonialism is an abomination. In 1900, the Belgian Congo alone, 10 million were killed. In the Middle East, the problems we see today are the creation of European colonialism -- the British and French betrayal of the Arabs after WW I, for example. Israel itself is an expression of this deadly colonialism, with the Zionists serving as the unwitting spearhead for Britain's "divide and conquer" strategy.

But in the Americas, at least, the era of colonialism is over. The native people here have the same rights that the non-natives have. I'm not familiar with the situation in Tibet, but I'm under the impression that Tibetans, likewise, have the same rights that other people living in China have.

Can Israel say that Palestinians have the same rights that Israelis have? No: Palestinians have been stripped of all rights. They are stateless. Israel dehumanizes them and denies their very existence! (Israel is using a lot of bombs and bullets to destroy people who "don't exist"!)

Nationalism, in very small doses, can be healthy. There's nothing wrong with taking pride in the achievements of one's nation, and nothing wrong with feeling love for one's nation -- just as one feels love for one's family.

Nationalism becomes a problem, however, when it idolizes one nation and demonizes neighboring nations. The nation, as idol, then takes precedence over the individual.

This sort of idolatry and collectivism is inherent in Zionism. After all, the Zionist claims that the alleged property rights of an ancient tribe supersede the property rights of modern individuals. He grants the Zionist STATE an eternal, sacred "Right to Exist", but grants no such right to the human individuals he kills day after day.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:56 am
Charles says:
"Can Israel say that Palestinians have the same rights that Israelis have? No: Palestinians have been stripped of all rights. They are stateless. Israel dehumanizes them and denies their very existence! (Israel is using a lot of bombs and bullets to destroy people who "don't exist"!) "

Palestinians are stateless--no doubt. They are assisted in that not only by some Israel policies that don't recognize their right to staehood, but EQUALLY by their Arab brethren who inreality do just the same thing.


Here is some evidence from Lebanon, where the law codifies discrimination against Palestinians EQUALLY
in terms of social, economic and political independence:

According to Human Rights Watch, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in "appalling social and economic conditions." They labor under legal restrictions that bar them from employment in at least 25 professions, "including law, medicine, and engineering," a system that relegates them to the black market for labor. And they are "still subject to a discriminatory law introduced in 2001 preventing them from registering property."[2] The discrimination Palestinians "suffer" when they apply for jobs in Lebanon has been compared to the "apartheid mentality" used by the ruling Sunni family of Bahrain towards its' majority Shi'ite population.[4]
Israeli Arab Journalist Khaled Abu Toameh and other commentators accuse Lebanon of practicing apartheid against Palestinian Arabs who have lived in Lebanon as stateless refugees since 1948.[4][5][6][7][8] According to Human Rights Watch, "In 2001, Parliament passed a law prohibiting Palestinians from owning property, a right they had for decades. Lebanese law also restricts their ability to work in many areas. In 2005, Lebanon eliminated a ban on Palestinians holding most clerical and technical positions, provided they obtain a temporary work permit from the Labor Ministry, but more than 20 high-level professions remain off-limits to Palestinians. Few Palestinians have benefited from the 2005 reform, though. In 2009, only 261 of more than 145,679 permits issued to non-Lebanese were for Palestinians. Civil society groups say many Palestinians choose not to apply because they cannot afford the fees and see no reason to pay a portion of their salary toward the National Social Security Fund, since Lebanese law bars Palestinians from receiving social security benefits."[9]
In one of his series of articles accusing the government of Lebanon of practicing "apartheid" against the resident Palestinian community, journalist Khaled Abu Toameh describes the "special legal status" as "foreigners" assigned uniquely to Palestinians, "a fact which has deprived them of health care, social services, property ownership and education. Even worse, Lebanese law bans Palestinians from working in many jobs. This means that Palestinians cannot work in the public services and institutions run by the government such as schools and hospitals. Unlike Israel, Lebanese public hospitals do not admit Palestinians for medical treatment or surgery."[10] Journalist Ben-Dror Yemini describes Palestinians in Lebanon as living "under various restrictions that could fill a chapter on Arab apartheid against the Palestinians. One of the most severe restrictions is a ban on construction. This ban is enforced even in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, bombed by the Lebanese army in 2007.[11] Calling on Lebanon to change the systematic discrimination against his people, Palestinian journalist Rami George Khouri compared Lebanese treatment of Palestinians to the "Apartheid system" of South Africa.[12]
[edit]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon


So, the truth is that Israel and Zionism aren't by their nature EXCLUSIVE in their persecution of Palestinians.
As Charles said so eloquently"Nationalism becomes a problem, however, when it idolizes one nation and demonizes neighboring nations. The nation, as idol, then takes precedence over the individual. "
S[peak to your Lebanese firinds about how they treat Palestinians,Charles,andIll know you're even-handed. Otherwise,stop bashing just Israel for whipping the Palestinians around.

It is an outright lie that I grant "the Zionist STATE an eternal, sacred "Right to Exist", but grants no such right to the human individuals he kills day after day.". I defend the rights of all peoples to a homeland wherever they may be. Likewise, I expose the lies that perpetuate the myths that Israel is the only source of repression of the Palestinians in the Middle East and elsewhere. I post articles here onCare2 defending human rights for people all over the world and have signed a petition previously defending Palestinian rights s to a homeland.

.Stop lying about my record on human rights and start writing about the rights of all peoples to a homeland if you really want my respect.

Again, it is one of Charles' additional lies that prop up his case that doesn't hold weight when revealed against the truth.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 2:11 am
Charles writes:
"But in the Americas, at least, the era of colonialism is over. The native people here have the same rights that the non-natives have. I'm not familiar with the situation in Tibet, but I'm under the impression that Tibetans, likewise, have the same rights that other people living in China have."

I would love to hear from Native Americans here on Care2 about whether they feel they have equal rights or whether Native culture should be restricted to reservations. Certainly the suppression of their culture by the dominant white European one exists and persists.High rates of unemployment and poverty among Native Americans also persists. Equal rights to these conditions and realities are not really to be aspired to or constitute expressed or real equality to others in the Americas in any event

Thursday April 26, 2012, 2:12 am
AS to Tibet, a good source is

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Tibet_independence

Thursday April 26, 2012, 6:11 am
ROB & JAY, one of the best essays I've ever read on a subject, that disgustingly, is going to effect every, single person on the planet.

CHARLES O., you are yet another Islamist apologist that has been sent out to defend the indefensible, employing taquira. As my Irish grandmother used to say, "Beware the smiling fool, for it will stab you in the stomach and laugh as you bleed to death."

So it is with Islam. I wish it were not so, that, indeed, as you proclaim that Moderate Muslims have been protesting the radicals. Liar! Yes, there have been some, but the majority are silent and it is that silence that had lead me to believe that more and more so called Moderates secretly agree with the 'occupy from within' tactic.

Europe is beginning to push back, but I fear it may already be too late. I believe, with every fiber of my being, that within a decade there will be religious based civil war in Europe and the UK.

I have several moderate, truly progressive Muslim friends that are horrified by what's happening, but they too are beginning to feel the heat from other Muslims. The abhorrent irony is palpable.

But I do have 2 questions:

1. If Muslims are so outraged by the Palestinian issue, why is there not more economic aid?

2. Where we these same powerful, incredibly wealthy Arab nations during the Bosnian slaughter of Muslims?

Thursday April 26, 2012, 7:31 am
@ Charles O
quote...If you're trying to terrify me with these alleged "quotes", you've failed. ...Unquote

How can you terrify someone who takes an obvious pride in their inability to grasp salient facts pertinent to the subject

and

quote..
I have no particular sympathy for Muslims, but Muslims are not the ultimate victims here. Our entire society becomes a victim,if we destroy our religious freedom and surrender to the haters. Our society becomes narrow, mean, fearful, vengeful. I would rather live in a society inspired by generosity and courage...
and
. The haters will not stop with banning just one religion....Unquote---

Take off the blinkers and see where the hate emanates from

Once again you parade your inability to see and understand islam.:- If you have any interest in the destruction of religious and personal freedoms-- Read the History of islam,read the koran,read the ahadith etc., Be Aware you will not get a second chance
The Mufti gets the last word

Question... To what extent it is obligatory on a Muslim to endeavour to establsh an Islamic govt in his
own country? ?
Answer
Every Muslim in a non-Muslim state is duty bound to adhere to the laws of Shari?ah and propagate
it to the best of his ability. An Islamic government cannot be established without Muslims being
steadfast in their Deen
also
However, an effort should be made by every Muslim to adhere to the laws of Shari'ah in every aspect of his/her life.
That dedication is a stepping stone to achieving one's aim of establishing an Islamic state.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 7:56 am

one French city, Nimes, the ancient basilica that has had a procession to honor the Virgin Mary for centuries now must have police protection to process around the outside of the church as the neighborhood has been taken over by Muslim immigrants who are flooding in - they are 'offended' by the procession, yet they regularly block the streets to hold their prayers in public and don't give a damn what anyone else thinks. The police fear to stop them.

This is TRUE SO NO WONDER THAT THE FRONT NATIONAL DID SO WELL IN THE ELECTION!

Thursday April 26, 2012, 8:01 am
"How can you terrify someone who takes an obvious pride in their inability to grasp salient facts pertinent to the subject "

+++++++++++++++ Rule #1 Deny, deny, deny!

Thursday April 26, 2012, 9:15 am
The obvious solution, as I've said many times here, is to enforce the law and hold all to the same standards.

Instead of considering this solution, the haters here DENY, DENY, DENY that there even IS a solution.

. .

If the haters are not looking for a SOLUTION, then they themselves are part of the problem.

Europe may well regress to religious civil war, but the war will be caused by the fanatical obsessive hatred of the Islam haters, not by law-abiding Muslims.

I don't want to criminalize hatred or other human emotions. But when hatred becomes chronic and monomaniacal, it leads to violence -- the sort of violence Norway experienced last year, for example. Anders Behring Breivik was part of this cult of anti-Muslim hatred. We need to confront that cult with reason and expose its false assumptions and doctrines.

. .

Tommy S. asks:

> How can you terrify someone who takes an obvious pride in their inability to grasp salient facts pertinent to the subject

But the facts presented were not salient. They were IRRELEVANT. What matters is behavior, not somebody's interpretation of words written in a book 1,300 years ago! As long as Muslims are behaving within the law, they are not the problem. If were to judge people on the basis of religious scripture, we would have to condemn every religion that reveres the Old Testament. Nothing written in the Koran can even come close to Deuteronomy 20:16: "Do not leave alive anything that breathes".

The haters complain that Muslims hate non-Muslims and insinuate that a religious war is the only "solution" to this hatred by Muslims. But once again, the haters have ignored the obvious non-violent solution: European countries need to stop making war in Israel's behalf. Europe must regain the moral and political high-ground that it lost when it capitulated to Israeli fascism. If Europeans want to regain respect, they must show that they are willing to put the well-being of Europeans ahead of the demands of Israeli war-makers.

Once the military aggression against Islamic countries ends, possibilities for dialogue open up. One should dialogue with Muslim haters in the same way that I am maintaining a dialogue with non-Muslim haters here. Such interfaith dialogues are already occurring.

. .

Max M. writes:

> you proclaim that Moderate Muslims have been protesting the radicals. Liar!

Yes. Max M. moderate Muslims HAVE been condemning the extremists for the last ten years, as a google search will quickly reveal. I have seen thousands of condemnations. So I am not the one who is lying.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 10:26 am
Thanks for the link, Cal! I was not aware of this terrific site.

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Tibet_independence

I see that my own argument is addressed: "Political rights: Have Tibetans received insufficient political rights under China?"

I am not a believer in self-determination. Recall that "Self-determination for the Sudeten" was the argument Hitler used at Munich. Instead, I believe in equal rights for all.

I also believe in the right of orderly secession. In the U.S., secession in 1861 could have led to a voluntary reunion with the North; instead, we got 625,000 dead, whole cities reduced to cinders, and 100 years of violent "Re-Construction". The Soviet experience also demonstrates that it is a mistake to try to lock regions into an involuntary union. So I support the evolution of rights in China, leading ultimately to a referendum on secession in Tibet and in other parts of China.

Maybe the secession of Tibet will start a trend worldwide! In the U.S. today, all fifty states should secede from the Ziosphere and the global military empire and then re-unite under American principles. The Empire is not something we Americans were ever given a chance to vote for or discuss. Freedom and Empire are incompatible: The wars of empire cannot be sustained in a free society.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 1:59 pm
?????

Thursday April 26, 2012, 10:04 pm
Ziosphere! great where can I join? I tried to join the Jewish conspiracy but could not find their office for an application form. Before that I tried to join the Elders of Zion but they would not take my call. Dam I feel so rejected! I guess I will never get a chance to rule the world.

I know I will join the Islamosphere! Now they are the real power. Lets see over a billion and a half members strong with nearly the whole worlds oil supply. With Islamic countries from Malaysia to Albania and all the Stan's in between.Why should I waste my time on a piddly little Jewish Ziosphere.

Come on Charles O lets do this right! Join the Islamosphere with me. Well show that Ziosphere whos boss huh!

Oh and thanks for the Star.

Thursday April 26, 2012, 10:50 pm
I just want to understand Charles' view of things. The Muslims of Europe are discriminated because of the Ziosphere. The United States should have left the southern states to break away because of the Ziosphere then join again peacefully when the Ziosphere goes away. So there are no other forces in this world except the Ziosphere. No other political groups with any power of their own? The poor Muslims and Christians are all under the influence of the Mighty Ziosphere!

No Charles we must join the Islamosphere they are really the up and coming power.

I mean I considered the Cristophere.

I mean that have all the wonderful churches. And that Vatican wow have you seen the artwork? But we all know that they never control anything and that the Jews have them under control I mean that whole Inquisition thing was all the Jews fault they forced those poor Catholics to burn them alive.

I am stunned that you have any regard for indigenous people. I mean if you did then the Jews in Israel who have only lived there for over 2000 years would be respected for being there. Sure they stupidly stayed there when the Greeks, Romans, Hittites, Persians, Islamic Arab armies not to mention the Ottoman Empire et. al. conquered them but hey what the heck it was home.

Thank goodness we can join the Islamosphere.

Friday April 27, 2012, 12:58 am
@ Charles O
quote....What matters is behavior, not somebody's interpretation of words written in a book 1,300 years ago... Unquote
You really haven't got a clue as to what islam is or what the koran and ahadith are and their relevance to muslims-

Friday April 27, 2012, 1:54 am
@Charles O
quote...Nothing written in the Koran can even come close to Deuteronomy 20:16: "Do not leave alive anything that breathes". ...Unquote
Really-- you know little about the koran yet you make definitive statements on it,you deny quotations of islams religious leaders and you obviously know nothing about Deuteronomy and its place in time
Methinks you are a big fraud using taqiyya

Friday April 27, 2012, 1:56 am
Hello John J.!

And you really haven't got a clue as to what Americanism is or what the Enlightenment is and its relevance to US.

If you live in fear of OTHER cultures, it's because you do not grasp the strength of your OWN culture.

Friday April 27, 2012, 2:14 am
Ira H. writes:

> Ziosphere! great where can I join?

We seem to be on the brink of another world war, Ira. You may think this is a wonderful joke, but the millions of people who will be slaughtered will not be quite so amused.

In Iraq, a million people were killed by Clinton's sanctions. Then another million were killed by Bush's blitzkrieg and occupation. In Palestine, millions of people have been suffering under occupation and bombardment for the last 44 years. Now Israel has ordered us to attack Iran and kill millions more. We are also trying to destroy Syria, in Israel's behalf. Libya has been smashed -- with 30,000 or more dead.

Try to put yourself in the place of these people. Then you will understand why fewer and fewer people are impressed by the dismissive jokes Zionists have been reciting for the last few decades. Come up with some new material, please!

Here in the U.S., we see our corrupt politicians groveling at the feet of Netanyahu, begging him to tell them which country to attack and destroy next, oblivious to the cost of these mad wars in American lives, American treasure and American freedom. I'm an American. I see my country going down the toilet and turning into a Stalinist nightmare, so that Zionists far away can continue to keep millions of Palestinians under their jackboot.

But far, far worse is to come, if Obama caves in to Israeli demands and starts WW III. Then we will all get to die a slow death from radioactive fallout, except for the Iranians, who will have the good fortune to die instantly.

Friday April 27, 2012, 8:38 am
Tommy S. writes:

> Methinks you are a big fraud using taqiyya

Why is it so hard for you to imagine that somebody here might actually care about religious freedom and the rule of law?

Why is it so hard for you to see that targeting one religion for special treatment or abuse creates a precedent for targeting others?

Stalin and Hitler both tried to eradicate certain religions. How well did that turn out for them? Why make the same disasterous mistake all over again, when a simple obvious and relatively painless solution is at hand.

Simply enforce the law and hold everyone accountable to the same standard! It's so much easier than allowing yurself to be consumed by religious and ethnic hatred.

"Taqiyya"? Why use a strange Muslim word when we have plenty of perfectly good English and Latin words and phrases? E.g., bull, deception, propaganda, rhetoric, speaking with forked tongue, speaking like a politician. If you want to accuse me of something, use English please. When you adopt the language of the group you hate, you are in danger of becoming what you hate.

Perhaps you think you can terrify us by using strange foreign words, or perhaps you are trying to deflect attention away from the Mossad motto -- by deception thou shalt make war.

Well, I'm not the one making war. I'm the one trying to preserve a semblance of peace. If you want to hear real "taqiyaa", listen to the war-makers. In war, truth is the first casualty.

Friday April 27, 2012, 11:58 am
Charles, if Israel is so powerful, why is it so tiny and allowed "hapless" Arabs to occupy 2/3 of the lands given to it in San Remo?

What makes you think that Obama will listen to anything Netaniyahu says, when Obama sent Netaniyahu home right before having dinner. To remind you, Obama bowed down to Saudi King, not to Netaniyahu.

Obama canceled Canadian pipeline and OK-ed for US to lose tens of thousands of jobs it would create. Why? Because Saudis want to keep their influence in US and want to punish Canada for standing up to UAE princes, demanding preferrential treatment and unfair business practice.

Israel come asking US for help in UN, while Arabs got 22 states there and can push ANY declaration there - something they do quite often.

Israel didn't ask US to help with Iran - Obama does not allow Israel to do the job alone. Things repeat itself: Israel cleared the world from Iraqi nukes, the world enjoyed and blamed Israel.
Israel cleared the world from Syrian nukes, the world enjoyed and blamed Israel.
Israel has to clear the world from Iranian nukes, but Obama gives away Israeli secrets and makes this mission undoable.I am not talking his birth certificate, but rarely person is acting so badly against his country interests.

Friday April 27, 2012, 3:04 pm
Bob A. writes:

> Israel cleared the world from Iraqi nukes, the world enjoyed and blamed Israel.

Actually, Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear POWER plant under construction. Iraq HAD NO nuclear weapons at the time, but Israel's deranged attack on the power planet led Saddam to attempt to develop nuclear weapons, in order to defend the country from Israel.

So, as is often the case, the Zionists created the very threat they pretended to combat.

Zionist policy has been suicidal from the start. Israel has survived this long only because the U.S. has been bailing it out for the last sixty years. I see no reason why we Americans should continue to be this fascist dead-end regime's adoring slave.

Friday April 27, 2012, 11:51 pm
Oh! Charles O, I do not there believe is ANYTHING funny about the Zionosphere. Your use of this is a typical means of discrediting a group of people by making up some dis-information. There is no such thing as a Zionoshphere or a Cristosphere or even an organization called a Islaomoshphere.
What there is, are people that like to vilify others by using emotive words that create an image of conspiracy or organisation that does not exist. It ranks right up there with the blood libels of the Christians saying the "Jews use baby blood to make their bread" or anti-Semites like Ford and his "International Jew" or how about the Elders of Zion" complete falsehoods and slander aimed at dehumanizing your enemy. Yes I think you see the Jews as your enemy. You think that as an American you are controlled by Jews. Your government is run by Jews. Your banks are owned by Jews the racial tensions are created by Jews, global warming is caused by Jews. Gosh Jews are so powerful I am surprised the world is not just called Jewworld.
I guess there are no Rockefellers or Hunts or Murdoch. There are no other groups with special interests only Jews. There are no Christian or Muslim groups with an agenda? No political agendas or industries that want to control things? No Big Oil interests, No Wall street interests only Jew Interests.
No one has any will power or plans except Jews. The Zionesphere that special zone that only Jew thought has power or direction. The Zionesphere, a special force field that drives everyone to turn on Muslims. No it really is not a joke but the use of such a term is ridiculous. When I see this and hear that it is the reason the Muslims are being discriminated against because of the Zionosphere I have to treat it with the scorn and derision that it deserves.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 12:44 am
Charles O, you say: 'Why is it so hard for you to imagine that somebody here might actually care about religious freedom and the rule of law?

Why is it so hard for you to see that targeting one religion for special treatment or abuse creates a precedent for targeting others?'

Tommy S is correct. You just don't get it. This is exactly what those of us who've studied Islam are saying about Islam. It is a conquering political, quasi-religious dogma. Its followers are commanded to 'kill unbelievers wherever you find them' and to conquer the whole world by the sword, deceit, immigration, outbreeding, infiltration, Mohammed said, until we are all living under the primitive, oppressive and intolerant Sharia/Islamic law - 'so all religion will be for Allah'.

Buddhism and Hinduism are growing faster in the US than Islam (only 9th place, mainly because of 60% of immigrants are Muslims now), but no one pays them any attention. Why? Because they aren't trying to force their religions on everyone else. They are not demanding special rights and to have their own tribal/religious laws recognized in western courts, as Islamists are.

Your ignorance of Islam is disturbing, but is typical among leftists. Islam has declared its intention to 'destroy our civilization from within' and your president and Secty of State both are guided by Muslim Brotherhood 'advisors' - and organization that has in its agenda just that - to destroy us so Islam rules us all.

One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere of this planet to burst into the northern one. But not as friends. Because they will burst in to conquer, and they will conquer by populating it with their children. Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women.� -- Houari Boumedienne, President of Algeria
1974 Speech before the United Nations

Here's proof even you should be wise enough to accept:

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."
Omar Ahmad, Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) A Muslim Brotherhood front org.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 1:56 am
For you who know nothing of what is going on, just the PC 'oh poor Muslims' leftist chant, here are some shocking and enlightening videos to show you what is happening in Europe. Europe has become too tolerant of intolerance, violence and hate from Islamists and they are taking full advantage and hate us for our 'weakness' in not standing up to them:

Sharia law in Belgium:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbMnA3uO9As&feature=colike

Malmo, Sweden with up to 1/3 Muslim immigrants now. Jews have been driven out where they had once been given refuge against Nazism - now they face it again, just like in the 1930s, but from Muslims. Muslims have taken over a neighborhood where Sharia law is enforced and locals and even the police fear to enter.: http://youtu.be/wRnP-XzB_U0

Saturday April 28, 2012, 8:52 am
@Charles O
You ARE a big fraud
quote...Why is it so hard for you to imagine that somebody here might actually care about religious freedom and the rule of law? ...Unquote
Many here do but you blather and bluster and make uninformed statements like
Quote...I reject anti-Semitism, or any ideology that denigrated entire ethnic or religious groups...Unquote
ROFL at that one
quote...Nothing written in the Koran can even come close to Deuteronomy 20:16: "Do not leave alive anything that breathes". ...Unquote
You have used this quote many times on care2 as some sort of evil - This was not an open ended command and was directed at a specific group of evil people and it all happened 1400 years before the Christian Jesus was born and has no relevance today.
Now take
sura 17:16 which states "And when We destroy a human habitation We send Our command to (warn) its people living a life of ease; and when they disobey, the sentence against them is justified, and We destroy them utterly....Unlike Deuteronomy this is an eternal open command--see objectives of jihad (ROT-O:9) which is warfare to establish the religion
Always remember
Sura 8:55.....NQ Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allâh are those who
disbelieve.

Quote...But if we look at the last 1,300 years of history we find that Islam really WAS "a religion of peace"...Unquote
Big ROFL at that one ...and BTW Taqiyya is religiously sanctioned lies (in islam)

Saturday April 28, 2012, 10:21 am
Hello Ira H. --

The term is "Ziosphere", not "Zionosphere". It's the sphere of Zionist influence, in the same way that the "Anglosphere" is the sphere of British influence.

Now you want us to believe that Zionists HAVE NO influence. This is a variant of the "Poor Helpless Defenseless Innocent Little Israel" act.

Children are innocent -- hardened murderous ideologues are not. It's time to grow up and face reality. There is nothing innocent about a regional superpower that keeps millions of people under occupation, scorns the Geneva Conventions and frequently makes war.

Most of our politicians here in the U.S. are owned and operated by AIPAC. Every year, they are required to go before AIPAC and pledge their eternal fealty to the Israeli regime. They hail that regime as their Messiah and they pledge to make war in its behalf -- wantonly sacrificing American sons and daughters, American treasure and American freedom in behalf of a thoroughly evil foreign regime. This is outright treason, but we Americans have no choice but to endure it. We are Occupied Territory II.

No, I do not see Jews as my enemy. I see many Jews as victims of a fascist ideology, in the same way that Germans, Italians, and Spaniards were victims of fascism in WW II. Palestine was not the first victim of Zionism: The first victim was cosmopolitan Jewish culture.

I stand WITH Jews who have managed to free themselves from this poisonous and ultimately suicidal ideology -- Jews in the Israeli peace movement and non-Zionist Jews everywhere. I wish these Jews had MORE influence here! Unfortunately, they are shut out by the Zionists at AIPAC.

Along with our American founders, I believe in the primacy of the INDIVIDUAL, with equal rights for all INDIVIDUALS. The ethnic group or tribe means nothing to me. I reject all forms of ethnic and religious hatred. I oppose Zionism for exactly the same reason that I oppose Hitlerism and other forms of fascism: These ideologies of war and ethnic division are DEADLY. In WW II, 35 million people were killed and an entire continent was reduced to rubble because of fascism. Why is it so hard for you to understand those of us who are trying to prevent a repeat performance?

. .

> That most Jews have never examined the founding principles of this ideology to which they cleave is unfortunate. For if they were to do so, they might be shocked at how anti-Jewish Zionism really is. Time and again, Zionists have even collaborated with open Jew-haters for the sake of political power.

-- Tim Wise, "Reflections on Zionism From a Dissident Jew", *ZNet*, 05 Sep 2001

Saturday April 28, 2012, 10:43 am
Tommy S. writes:

> You have used this quote many times on care2 as some sort of evil - This was not an open ended command and was directed at a specific group of evil people and it all happened 1400 years before the Christian Jesus was born and has no relevance today.

But Deuteronomy 20:16 and many similar passages do have relevance today, because tens of millions of "Christian" Zionists here in America treat the Old Testament as their gospel. They believe every word of it. When the Old Testament says that God wants us to genocide non-Jews, they lap it up. So when Israel slaughters Palestinians and Lebanese today, they are not outraged or shocked: Just the opposite, they see the genocide as part of "God's Holy Plan". They rejoice in the killing, and their only disappointment is that Israel did not kill more non-Jews.

Your Koran quotes are new to me, and I've been in these forums for over a decade. I am wary of them, for the same reason that I am wary of invidious Talmud quotes.

At any rate, I am in no danger of converting to Islam anytime soon and I'm not here to defend Islam. I'm sure there are Muslims who are every bit as militaristic as the Christians who sing "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" or "Onwards Christian soldiers". So you are trying to convince me of something that I do not dispute.

My quarrel is with your fearful response. You are giving the fanatics way too much credit, and your response plays into their hands. Many religions thrive under persecution, and I suspect that Islam is one such religion. So the more you hate Muslims, the more you nurture the very thing that you hate. I am a defender of freedom, and I do not want our society to lose religious freedom!

You and the other anti-Muslims here seem to have no solution: You have put yourself on downwards spiral that leads nowhere.

I DO have a solution: Enforce the law, and apply the same standards to everyone. Give Muslims no cause to feel persecuted, while drawing a firm line against abuse. Then end the war against Muslim countries, join in inter-faith dialogue and air your grievances.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 4:13 pm
Charles O, Yes I agree with several points you have made. Everyone should follow the law of the land. In fact it is part of the Jewish ethic and practice to give loyalty and support to any nation that Jews live in. Prior to WW2 German Jews were among the most loyal. Being a Jew demands that. In the temples and etc at every service they stand and say a prayer for the country and leadership. So yes law is vital and must be applied equally for a strong and safe society.

I also agree that there is a Jewish influence in this world. Just like there is an English influence and Christian influence, Islamic Influence and even in it's limited way a Charles O or even an Ira H influence.

Do Jews have a disproportionate amount of influence to their actual numbers? Why YES! There are more Jewish doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, entertainers, philosophers, writers and give more to charity then most any other group you can point to. Of a world population of over 6 billion people Jews make up less than .002%. However that .002% are trying to be part of society. Now if you are saying that the "Ziosphere" is a cultural influence and not some evil conspiratorial Cabal with a charter to rule the world then sure. We can say that there is an influence.

Organizations like AIPAC and the various Democratic and Republican Jewish groups do exist and like any political group lobby governments. But to say that they control America is absurd and falls into the realm either wilful misinformation or fantasy. It would be saying that no other people or group exist or have any influence. No NRA or John Birch Society or Baptist, Catholic, Protestant or Latino, Irish or African-American groups exist or have no influence. Politicians cater to the demands of its constituency. Do Jews make donations to political parties? Yes they do. Do others? Yes they do to. I would say that the Texas oil groups donate more. I would say that the Unions donate more.

No It is ingenious to say that the reason for the Muslims of Europe to suffer discrimination is because of the all powerful Zioshpere.

Yes the law of the land must be applied equally and fairly. There should always be only one law for everyone that way everyone has the same rights. No special interest group should have sway especially based on some religious text and not civil law.

Separation of Church and state is a must.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 6:28 pm
I have a problem with your description of Israel as a super power.
There is only one real super power on this planet at this time and it is the USA. Does Israel have the power to conquer the Middle East? No. Can it make military strikes yes but it cannot project power.

You make it sound as though there are no other armies of note in the area. Syria when they are not killing each other is very strong. Egypt is huge. Iran is very powerful. Although Saudi keeps a low profile it is equipped with more of the latest and greatest. No the Middle East does not live in terror of Israel and your famous Jackboots.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 6:45 pm
It's nice to see such a reasonable comment, Ira H..

But once again, it's not "Jewish influence" that concerns me. It's the influence of the war-making regime in Israel, in alliance with the racketeers of war here in the U.S.. The regime sponsors our politicians through AIPAC, and, in exchange, our politicians fund the regime. It's a cozy $3,000,000,000-per-year kickback scheme, and it makes it hard for honest politicians to compete.

If Israel were a peaceable country with equal rights for all, I would be praising it and loving it. But there is no way that I can support a country devoted to death and destruction on a regional or planetary scale. Given a choice between a human being and a tank, I side with the human being.

Israel's addiction to war-making is ruinous and ultimately suicidal.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 8:14 pm
Yes, well....as usual, the topic of Muslim antipathy and violence has been subverted into blaming Israel for whatever....

Let's DO be "reasonable." Is it "reasonable" to walk into a forest where tigers roam, without some form of self-protection?

Is it "reasonable" to swim with sharks without a spear?

Is it "reasonable" to trust people whose holy texts demand acts of violence not ONLY against other religions but against one another? (After all, Muslims have killed more Muslims in the last few years than anyone from the West.)

Charles, I've come to believe that you are either very, VERY naive....or you're trying to convince us that ignoring the very real dangers of Muslim interference in the West is safe because, for some reason, it suits you to play advocate for Islam.

Either way, I suggest you rethink your position. Humans are, by nature, tribal. It's innate and it's a trait which has served us well, historically but which has also been our curse. Islam is a tribal system....with values and motives which Christianity left behind centuries ago.

Islam is NOT ''just" a religion---it is a political system which seeks to control the thoughts and actions of everyone who lives in its influence. It is completely incompatible with democratic values--freedoms of speech, thought, artistic expression and women's rights are anathema to it. Anyone who values womens' freedoms MUST turn away from it! Its texts blatantly suggest lies and manipulations of other cultures. It treats animals with barbaric disregard and has no regard for preserving the balance of life on earth.

We ignore Islam at our peril.

Saturday April 28, 2012, 8:58 pm
What feelings Islam can raise in a civilized society, when in the name of Islam a law allows husbands to have sex with bodies of their dead wives? Or with underage girls, purchased to cover their fathers debts?

Sunday April 29, 2012, 5:00 am
@ Charles O
quote...Your Koran quotes are new to me, and I've been in these forums for over a decade. I am wary of them,...Unquote
Then perhaps you should look them up-- you were quick enough in another post to use koran quotes you did/didn't understand
As the POTUS stated :- .
“The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind.”
See-- Even the POTUS gets it wrong
now this comes from sura 5:32 that actually states.....On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”
As you can see "innocents are not mentioned" also the POTUS deliberately misquoted (it was a warning to the Jews)--------- and the next verse lays out the punishments for murder and mischief ---------Sura 5:33 The recompense of those who wage wa r against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides

Sunday April 29, 2012, 5:35 am
Charles O, You have written "If Israel were a peaceable country with equal rights for all, I would be praising it and loving it."OK that sounds pretty cool. Could you please give me an example of a country that is peaceable with equal rights for all?

I ask this because the Israeli constitution guarantees equal rights and provides proportional representation in its parliament. Since the Arab Israelis are about 20% of the population they have 20% of the government. Christian Israelis are also represented but I do not have their figures.

All Israelis have equal rights. The only aspect of Israeli life that is different for Muslim Israelis is that they do not have to go into the Army as it might conflict with their beliefs or put them in opposition to their family.

The founder of the BDS movement to Boycott Israeli products is an Arab Israeli who was going to the Hebrew University. If he had been a Jewish student in an Arab country how would he fair?

So Lets see your list of countries that have all the equal rights that you would love and praise.

Wednesday May 2, 2012, 7:25 am
Sure is quiet in here....FOUR posts with REASONABLE questions and they go unanswered.

Thursday May 3, 2012, 3:59 am
Sorry, Ira -- I've been away.

Peaceable countries that do not keep millions under military occupation? Try:

* Finland, Switzerland, Japan, Philippines, Russia, Venezuela, Brazil, Spain, ... and about 200 more.

Israel makes an utter mockery of anything it might "guarantee" on paper. It treats Palestinians in the same way that the Third Reich treated Jews. I condemn the Israeli regime for exactly the same reason that I condemn the fascist regimes of the 1930s.

Thursday May 3, 2012, 1:34 pm
Sorry, Ira -- I've been away.
That’s ok Charles, I too have a life.
I must say that your answer is not up to your usual standards. It was a bit glib.

“Peaceable countries that do not keep millions under military occupation? Try:

* Finland, Switzerland, Japan, Philippines, Russia, Venezuela, Brazil, Spain, ... and about 200 more.”
Lets see the ones you mentioned are not surrounded by other nations that have called for their extinction. But when they were under threat they were much more inhumane.
The Norse countries did not just protect themselves they attacked nations all the way to the Mediterranean. In the 1920s Japan ruled large sections of China and treated them in the worst way killing large numbers of people and enslaving whole villages. Russia’s recent history is so bloody I am amazed you could add that one.
Spain, really Charles When they had an ethnic population that was at all different they burned them at the stake, They do not have anyone left except the Basques and they are getting along fine....I think
Even gentle Australia has a history. They were not being threatened but decided to wipe out the entire population that was there. European (English) lined up and marched from one end of Tasmania to the other and killed every Aborigine they could find. They did not count Aborigines as human until the late 1960s
So do not even try to compare Israel to your so called list of countries you so admire. If Israel was half as bad as you make them out the population of Gaza would be less than the original numbers not twice the population it was in 1948.

“Israel makes an utter mockery of anything it might "guarantee" on paper. It treats Palestinians in the same way that the Third Reich treated Jews.”
Oh Charles O – This is too much even for you. Let’s see the third Reich created work camps that stripped Jews of all their clothes. Shaved their heads and separated the men from their women and children from their mothers. Then selected the ones that could work from the ones that were too old, sick or young and gassed or shot them, then burned the bodies. They then proceeded to work the remainder of the Jews until they dropped dead from starvation or work. Except for the ones they performed medical experiments on.
Even your buddies in HAMAS have not said the Israelis did anything like that.
Your statement is just so patently untrue and hurtful especially to Jews it could only be deliberate. What would you call a person that would so vilify a group or nation with such a false accusation? I do not have a word for a person that would accuse the very people that suffered these horrible tortures of inflecting them on others.
You like to refer to people that disagree with you as haters. But I cannot think of what to call you.

Thursday May 3, 2012, 9:41 pm
Hello Ira --

Glib because I'm "typing" on a slow old laptop: It sure dampens my desire to expatiate!

You write:

> Lets see the ones you mentioned are not surrounded by other nations that have called for their extinction.

But no one was calling for extinction, prior to the Zionist invasion. Jews have been a part of Palestine for millennia. They were integrated into the culture. Zionists destroyed this integration. It is the Zionists themselves who make "Extinction" an issue. With their suicidal bellicosity, they evoke a token backlash. They can then pretend to be Poor Helpless Defenseless Victims. As Infinite Victims, they are held Above The Lasw and Beyond Reproach. This special status sets them apart from the human race and fosters further bellicosity -- so they ride a downwards spiral of their own making, straight to hell.

The Threat to Israel's Existence comes from Israel itself: fascism is not a viable system. Zionists exploit our sympathy for the Victim, but to achieve Perpetual Victim status, they are forced to sacrifice their self-respect and their humanity.

. .

Yes, you can surely find things that the Hitlerites did that the Zionists have not yet emulated. Conversely, I can mention Zionist crimes that surpass those of the Hitlerites. What the Zionists lack in intensity, they make up for in time: Palestinians have been penned up for 44 years now. And the Zionists deny the very existence of their victims -- and then go on to bomb these "non-existing" people. I don't remember the Hitlerites bomb the ghettos?

In its Charter, Hamas calls for Palestinians to unite in resisting the "Nazi-like behavior" of the "Nazi" invaders. So yes, Hamas does compare Zionists with Nazis. Many others have made the same comparison -- e.g., Churchill, Einstein, Arendt. You may find my words "hurtful", but imagine how much more hurtful it is for the millions who are held under perpetual occupation and bombardment by this dysfunctional fascist regime.

Thursday May 3, 2012, 11:30 pm
What a load of rubbish. Israel is and has been a legitimate nation for 64 years. The IDF does shell the bases of terrorist arms stores as well as the bomb making facilities.

As to Hitler's Nazis not bombing ghettos that is just plain falsehood. Hitler did bomb ghettos as well as rounded up familes in ghettos and then systematically killed everyone they could. To say that the period that Palestinians being treated badly for 44 years makes up for the time difference in cruelty is preposterous. You say Jews are the perpetual victims as it is some kind of ploy that have been using for sympathy. That is just plain insulting.
Jews needed a refuge because even when they tried to assimilate they have been massacred. You say that they were integrated in to the Middle Eastern world prior to Israel. You do not mention that they were the targets of Arab assaults since the 1700s. Now Israelis are not going to be victims any more. They will not march into the ovens and despite your opinion as to them having a right to exist it means nothing.

Now as to the "invasion of Palestine". Jews have lived there for thousands of years and were there when the Arab armies invaded from Saudi Arabia. The only reason that the Arabs want to destroy Israel is because it is Jewish. If it were the Syrians or Lebanese or Jordanians or Egyptians there would be no problem at all. but as the Hamas charter says it all that it will always be the enemy as long as a Jew lives.

I was there in 1970 when the West Bank was open and there was no check points there was work and people moved freely from Afula to Tel Aviv. I had Palestinian friends that would travel from the Mount of Olives to Givatime (Tel Aviv) and traveled without any problems. When the terror attacks increased so did security. So do not try to rewrite history with me. You say that the Israelis do not see the Palestinians. not true, If Israel did to the Palestinians what Hamas does to the Israelis which it to fire rockets indiscriminately in to populated areas. Shooting purposely at schools and buses then maybe you would have a point. But no Israel does not. And I will add without hesitation that Albert Einstein never compared Israeli to Nazis in any way shape or form.

So I say again, any comparison of Israel to Germany during the Nazi regime is not just untrue it is purposely inflammatory and only goes to show your utter contempt for fairness.

Oh and thank you for correcting me about Hamas calling the Israelis Nazi Invaders. Since you are in such agreement with them I can see that the indiscriminate death of Jews means nothing to you.

No Israel is no longer a helpless victim but it is a target of prejudice and lies. As for being Dysfunctional! Also a complete falsehood. Israel more Hi-Tech products, Medicines and agriculture then any of its neighbors that are many times it size. Israel sends first responders to disasters anywhere in the world even to countries that do not recognize Israel. Israel flies children in need of heart surgery from anywhere in the world. Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world. Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest per
capita rates of patents filed.In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup
companies in the world. except the U.S.! Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.
The per capita income in Israel in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups
Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.
SO what is your definition of dysfunctional and fascist.

Let see Syria with a mandatory single party holding the majority of seats? oh Saudi Arabia with a royal family that will behead people for witchcraft? these are the wonderful governments that bring adulation and joy to your heart while that evil Israel that has proportional representation great health programs for all Israelis (not just the Jewish ones) and education for all including the non Jewish, In Hitlers Germany Jews were not allowed to even go to school go to public events or use public facilities.

A simple quote that sums up the positions of the people involved by someone whom I an sure you admire. The head of the Hezbollah

“We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we will take from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.” – Hassan Nasrallah, Secretary General of Hezbollah

Friday May 4, 2012, 5:01 am
Hello Ira --

You greatly misjudge me. I vehemently oppose Nazis and fascists in general. I have great sympathy for Jews who suffered under fascism seventy years ago -- just as I have great sympathy for Palestinians today. I have no fondness for Islam or for Saudi Arabia. In Israel-Palestine, I seek a SINGLE state with equal rights for all, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity. I would end the artificially created war between Jew and non-Jew: In other words, I want Jews to free themselves from the unhealthy Zionist mentality, and return to their cosmopolitan roots.

Einstein, Arendt and many other American Jews compared Zionists to Nazis (their exact term) in their 04 Dec 1948 letter to the NYT. They warned of the take-over of Zionism by fascist elements. Instead of heeding their cogent warning, we have spent the last 64 years appeasing the Israeli fascists. As a result, we are now, again, on the verge of a world war.

Fascism is the ideology of national suicide: Zionism is a dead end.

I see you idolizing the Zionists and demonizing their critics. Your obviously fake Nasrallah "quote" is part of this demonization. Instead of dialoguing with helpful critics -- like me! -- you put up a wall of indignation. You need to get to know the victims of Israeli fascism. See the world through their eyes.

Sunday May 6, 2012, 9:20 am
Charles O, The letter you quote to the NYT is not saying that Israel was fascists but that a single right wing party was. It is like saying that the entire USA is fascist because there are pro-NAZI parties.

I can appreciate that you would like to see a single state of Palesirael but it is not going to happen. If your vision is a single state it will be just one more Islamic state that will eventually become intolerant of any other. I am not saying this only because the Koran calls for it but recent history over the last few generations has shown this to be true. Even countries that have had a secular government are becoming intolerant of the west and other religions.

Iran was secular under the Shaw - although not democratic it was secular. - is is now very intolerant of others and extremely anti-West. This was not because of Israel as some would like to say. In fact The first act of the new government was to storm the US embassy and hold the entire US personnel hostage for months. Their demands had noting to do with Israel or Palestinians.

Lebanon was a secular state. Beirut was known as the Paris of the MIddle East. After the Syrian invasion and the Hezbollah gained control it has become a basket case with armed squads of militant groups not controlled by the government enforcing their own rules. The Christian population has been fleeing for years. I do not see AI doing much about that.

Turkey has been a secular nation for centuries. It has been a member of NATO but has since become as anti-west and anti-other religions as it's constitution allows.

Egypt that although even with a peace treaty has not been close to Israel was considered a secular nation. since the introduction of more fundamentalist elements in control, Coptic Christians are being killed and are being forced out in record numbers.

Do you really think even for an instant that the Islamic Brotherhood and it's allies HAMAS and Hezbollah are going to allow Jews to remain. let Jews have self determination and participate in a nation that they are not a majority. I am not sure but isn't it in the charter of HAMAS to kill all the Jews and not let even one survive?.

Ask the Jews in Syria how much fun they are having. Oh yes I remember it took nearly 20 year and many nations to get the Jews out. Syria was considered a secular nation as well.

Charles O, if you are sincere about wanting equal rights for all then there must be recognition of Israel's right to exist. Because it cannot be one sided. All parties have a right to exist or no one has a right to exist. The simple solution is not going t work. You cannot blame Israel for all the problems because it exists. It would be like saying there would be no racism if everyone could just be white! There would not be a problem with Jews if they just became Muslims.

Again it is interesting that the article that has sparked this dialog is because IA has found that the Europeans are not getting along with the influx of Muslim people that have settled there. It has noting to do with Israel or Jews. There is no Jewish control of Europe. In France where there is a great deal of anti-Muslim sentiment is a country that has a tradition of antisemitism. In fact the last Jew to be burned to death at the stake was in France in the 1700s. I think she was a 12 or 14 year old girl that was accused of being a false convert by the Catholic Church. (the last that was burned after that it was just strangulation for the next 50 years). The Jews do not control the sentiment in Europe.

You see Charles we can be throwing quotes at each other to prove points all day long the real point is that the Palestinians are not happy because they are living in terrible conditions with no vision of improvement except that vision that all will be well when Israel is destroyed. The Israelis are unhappy because after 64 years of working to build a highly successful country that has been under attack since it was partitioned is surrounded with people that have sworn to kill them without mercy.

And now you come along to say "it is all the fault of the Israelis and the whole problem will simply go away when Israel throws open its borders puts down it's guns and says ok no problem Hamas you take over and we wont worry because we know that you will be fair and give us equal rights. Sorry we were such fascists. We should have listened to Charles O because he knows quotes that will stop you from killing us. Thank goodness for Charles O he is going to save us and all we had to do is make it a single state called Palestine. Thank you Charles O We feel so much better now.

It is helpful critics like yourself that is so refreshing. I guess when I lived with a Palestinian family in the mount of Olives I did not see things like you have.