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Indonesian Province Orders Destruction of 36 Churches, Seals 16 Others


Society & Culture  (tags: Aceh, Indonesia, Christians, Muslims, Islamists, Intolerance, Church Destructionabuse, corruption, freedoms, government, religion, politics, violence )

Rob and J
- 852 days ago - barnabasfund.org
The Islamist government says the churches violate a signed agreement between Christians & Muslims allowing only one church for 15,000 Christians, but Christians say they only signed because they were threatened. 300 Churches have already been destroyed



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Comments

Carola May (20)
Friday June 22, 2012, 6:18 am
And this is in the most 'tolerant' Muslim dominated country? What most people don't seem to understand is that Muslims often say 'Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance' and westerners believe that without knowing that those two words mean quite different things to Muslims and to westerners. In Islam there is peace and tolerance when all non-Muslims submit to Islamic superiority and rule and accept their inferior status. There can be no equality and freedom of religion in Islam and no Muslim ruled land has it. None.

It's shocking that the ethnic cleansing and destruction of churches and other non-Muslims houses of worship is happening all across the Muslim dominated lands from northern Nigeria, where Orthodox Muslims have declared war to drive all Christians out so they can establish a Sharia state to Southern Buddhist Thailand and in Egypt, Tunisia, Iran, Turkey, the Gulf Region where a noted Islamic authority recently issued a fatwa for Muslims to destroy all Christian churches in that region, Kuwait, Iraq et al.

Islam teaches that Islam must conquer the world 'so that all religion is for Allah', and Allah is not a god of love, forgiveness and tolerance. Just read the Islamic trilogy - Qur'an, hadith and sira. It is all full of hatred for non-Muslims and calls for violence against them all.

Where is the outrage over this?! Why isn't Care2 telling about this human rights atrocity across the Muslim ruled world? You know if this was happening to Muslims Care2 and the mainstream media would be howling with outrage and Obama would send in the Marines, but he even refused to meet with Christian leaders from Muslim ruled lands who came to beg him to help them. What kind of man is he? His obvious bias is frightening.
 

pam w. (191)
Friday June 22, 2012, 8:21 am
Home Minister Gamawan Fauzi said that he was not aware of the closure plans and would contact Mr Razali to ask for clarification, saying that citizens had a right to worship as long as they complied with regulations.

He said:

The majority shouldn’t force their views on the minority. Tolerance should continue to exist.

+++++++++++++++++++++ REALLY? I'm in agreement with Carola...WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? Why aren't the Islamists on Care2 standing up with us to demand an exclamation? Why are Margaret, LaDuquesa, Vicky P, etc. so very, VERY quiet?
 

pam w. (191)
Friday June 22, 2012, 8:22 am
OOOOPS....I mjeant "explanation"....
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Friday June 22, 2012, 8:33 am
As long, as oil continues to "oil" many politicians and the Islamic lobby has a great leverage and influence, tragedies like that will go unreported and actually ignored.

 

Gene Jacobson (256)
Friday June 22, 2012, 10:01 am
There is nothing tolerant whatsoever about the Islamists in Indonesia. And never will be. Of course, global warming and the resultant rise in sea level will all but wipe out that chain of islands in the not too distant future, but I'm sure they'll find some high ground on which to persecute each other. They always do.
 

Paula M. (39)
Friday June 22, 2012, 2:30 pm
Horrible. Thank you for this article.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday June 22, 2012, 2:37 pm
More great news for Indonesian Christians.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 12:11 am
We know about the intolerance of the Indonesian Islamists..........for too long the world has closed its eyes to Indonesian forays into West Papua. The silence is deafening. There will be very little outcry about the destruction of these churches. Thanks R and J
 

Glenn Byrnes (190)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 12:42 am
Noted. Thank you for posting this.
 

Eileen R. (13)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 12:42 am
if this was reverse you'd see governments up in arms but christians are not allowed any rights in this world, churches have been bombed at christmas time and they have been raped and forced to convert. we need to step up and say no now before it's too late for us.
 

Stan B. (123)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 12:59 am
Moderate and Islam don't belong in the same sentence. We in Australia have a major threat to our north with Indonesia. This is why Australia is always prepared to support the US because one day we are going to need the US to support us.
I wonder how many synagogues there are in Indonesia!!
 

Carol Dreeszen (365)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 1:06 am
Islam is a disaster!! How these people think they can physically force their insane agenda on people with all of their lies is unbelievable!! It's all about a power trip and sooner rather than later I fear it's all going to come to a screeching halt! The world can't continue under these barbaric, insane scum!
 

Hilary S. (45)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 1:51 am
indonesia is one of the world's mostly densely populated countries, which for some reason seems to provide fertile ground for islamists to proliferate too. is it the absence of vigilance? or merely ignorance and xenophobia? weeds is the analogy that springs to mind.
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 2:03 am
Ah Indonesia- bastion of religious tolerance, justice and humanity- NOT!! Not only can you be beaten to death for joining the wrong sect of Islam, you can have your head chopped of if you are a schoolgirl attending Catholic school. If you're in the 'club' you can commit mass murder of more than 200 people and only get 20 years- but if you are a dumb young kid who tries to smuggle in a couple of kgs of marijuana you'll get the same 20 years. You don't want to be a little girl in Indonesia these days- 97% of them have undergone genital mutilation. Top place- going there for a relaxing holiday-NOT!!
 

Michela m. (3960)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 3:19 am
I AM AGAINST WHATEVER SORT OF EXTREMISMS

FROM ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER............
 

Michela m. (3960)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 3:22 am
You cannot currently send a star to Gene because you have done so within the last week.
 

Michela m. (3960)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 3:26 am
Martin Luther King:
“We must learn to live together as brothers, or we are going to perish together as fools”
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 3:40 am
Islam has and always will be, allergic to any competition from other religions. This behavior is entirely in character within a predominately Islamic country.
 

Barbara K. (83)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 5:12 am
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Why are Christians just standing by and letting this happen? It is something that needs to be stopped at the beginning, before being overtaken by this horrid bunch.
 

Berny p. (23)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:44 am
We know about the intolerance of the Indonesian Islamists..........for too long the world has closed its eyes to Indonesian forays into West Papua.
The silence is deafening AND IT WILL BE SO AS CORRUPTION IS EVERYWHERE!
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:45 am
Gee....where ARE the rabid DEFENDERS OF ISLAM AS THE RELIGION OF PEACE?
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 8:12 am
It's an odd situation:

Aceh is not exactly run by Indonesia. I haven't checked carefully, but it looks like it has a lot of autonomy following negotiations between separatist rebels and the Indonesian government. As part of the peace-agreement, the government of Indonesia may be forbidden from intervening in religious affairs in Aceh. (This seems likely due to the religious division between the rebels in Aceh and the Indonesian government.) From the article, it also looks like there was some kind of religious internal conflict in Aceh, and Christians were forced to agree to harsh terms. It sucks a lot, but that's what it means to lose in violent conflict.

To make matters worse, because Aceh is still technically a part of Indonesia, it may be difficult or impossible to engage in sanctions against it without catching the rest of Indonesia, which has only committed the "crime" of refusing to go to war, in the same. Besides, sanctions are far too slow to stop something like this. If they cannot be convinced to stop the demolitions, then the only alternatives are to let them go ahead or force them to stop. I suspect war would be the only way to stop these demolitions.

Is a renewal of one war or the other (the internal religious conflict in Aceh or the Free Aceh/Indonesian government-conflict) justified there? I'm not in a position to judge, but opposition to tyranny is a good cause for war. My question is whether this constitutes tyranny for that purpose or is part of a degenerative pattern which does. What do you think?
 

Allan Yorkowita (445)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 10:32 am
And people wonder why nations of the world are skeptical about Muslims as a whole.
 

Ge M. (218)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 1:39 pm
Michela, we are tolerant of Muslims but Islam is not tolerant of us. Those of us who want to co-exist peacefully together do. However, we must be aware and stop their ongoing racial and religious abuses. After all, would you like your church burnt down? Would you like it if the police just shrugeed their shoulders and turned away? Would you like it if your daughters were kidnapped & raped? Would you like it if you and your family were killed for being Christian? This is what is happening in far too many countries and it is time that all speak out and not defend the indefensible!


 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 5:09 pm
1 church for 15,000 Christians won't do it. And an agreement entered into under threat is nothing more than blackmail. Illegal and immoral. If Mohammedans want acceptance by others, they'll have to accept others in the bargain. Some do, some don't. And those that don't need to be stopped by the state when they're on a rampage against everyone else.
 

Cam V. (417)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:01 pm
I am not a religious man but are we destroying Mosques? Nope, nor would we so how is this right?
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:09 pm
Antonia....Islam IS the State....it's NOT "just" a religion. The State builds mosques, not the private citizens. Islam controls every aspect of life in those countries where it has control.

This is the "exquisite religion of PEACE." They demand equality and respect and act like hate-filled bullies.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:18 pm
Pam, Christianity's the state religion in some countries (and once was in serious control of numerous others). But it isn't and wasn't Christianity that took control it was people who were Christian who'd decided to abuse the role of religion (like many of them today are trying to in America.) A religion or a philosophy can be used or misused. This story's about a misuse - the kind that happens when a government stupidly adopts a national religion and people allow its laws to be doused over everyone and sometimes made the law of the land. It's the kind of misuse that happens when people aren't smart enough to throw out the dirty old bathwater while leaving the baby intact.
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 6:28 pm
Yes, Antonia, I"m aware of Christianity being a state religion in some countries. But they don't prohibit other religions---they don't burn other houses of worship and they don't torture members of other faiths. If there are any Christian nations who behave like Islam in this way, I want to know which they are, please.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 7:05 pm
Hi Gillian, Anotnia, and Cam,

The destruction of the churches is wrong, but are any measures to stop it, which have a realistic chance of succeeding, justified? Might doesn't make right, but going along with might makes bloodless streets.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 7:29 pm
That's what I meant by throwing out the dirty old bathwater while leaving the baby intact, Pam. The countries that're majority-Mohammedan are behind the times when it comes to modernizing their religion and how it impacts their cultures. Most majority-Christian nations are Western nations who've done somewhat better in that way with time. Most weren't that way, though, for most of their histories and the Christian states could and did burn and torture and oppress an astonishingly large number of others. And we've still a long way to go in obtaining the right balance.

But you're still comparing apples to oranges - 'Christian nations who behave like Islam'. Mohammedanism isn't a nation. And individual Christians in this world, along with groups of Christians, are sometimes the victim of sectarian violence and are sometimes the perpetrators. And sometimes both sides are so damned nasty that it seems there's little difference in some places. In Nigeria and (not long ago) Yugoslavia, Christians killing Mohammedans and vice versa. The Lord's Resistance Army (also known as the People's Democratic Christian Army) committing atrocities in Sudan, the Congo, and elsewhere, Northern Ireland and Papist vs. Protestant. Majority-Papist Rwandans committing genocide. It still goes on.

Religion's a divisor. If the culture's modern enough to withstand its excesses, the divisions aren't so great. Catching up's what's needed.

(I may've made a duplicate post but my first didn't appear.)
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 23, 2012, 7:31 pm
And in answer to your question, Stephen Brian, I'm of the mind to believe that protection of religious freedom's a reasonable motive for military intervention within a country.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 12:59 am
It's interesting to note that Aceh Province was one of the hardest hit places by the huge tsunami 2 or 3 years ago and the whole world rushed to their aid. The Christian based western nations sent the bulk of that aid for food, water and rebuilding homes and businesses. And this is how they treat others? Next time perhaps we should only rebuild churches (if there are any left since there have been over 300 destroyed throughout all of Indonesia so far) and help non-Muslims, but then there would be headlines about the poor victimized Muslims, wouldn't there?
 

Kerrie G. (135)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 3:28 am
Noted, thanks.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 4:52 am
Tommy S:--- the Bible is the literal word of the Christian God in Christianity, so what's your point? Their revelations are eternal and issued for the guidance of Christians for all time, so again, what's your point?
They have to do with Jesus, who calls himself the Son of God so it's immutable. Same as with anyone calling themselves the prophet or son of some Supreme Being. That's the way it works in religious texts and doctrines and literalism.
t could be viewed that if you call yourself a Christian and yet don't follow the bible literally (spare the rod, spoil the child, cut off your right hand if it offends you, and a lot of other violent directives) you're not 'really a Christian'. Just like saying anyone who doesn't murder non-muslims isn't 'really a muslim'.
Then you will have to go after Mormons who are a sect of Christianity who practice having more than one wife. On and on.
It's obvious as Antonia points out, many violent, despicable acts of murder, mayhem, have been done by Christianity as well as Islam. Christianity currently doesn't engage in the same stuff they did throughout the centuries to the same degree. They went through a kind of renaissance. Islam hasn't to the same degree, yet there are millions of non-violent muslims, found in various nations across the planet. That's e fact,

The point is it isn't up to someone telling everyone else 'what Islam is' or 'what Muslims must do or they aren't 'really Muslims'.
You don't decide anything for anyone else.

If it got really pathetic, somebody would make it all come down to 'religion A does much worse things than religion B', 'let's count up all the bad things and compare in sheer number and degree' which is better, religion A or religion B', let's compare what we define as a bad thing compared to what isn't quite as bad a thing, and so on.
Where injustice occurs it should be righted plain and simple, for everyone, and everywhere.
'.
 

Gina M. (0)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 5:11 am
In my opinion, this world would be a better place WITHOUT RELIGIONS of any kind!!!!
 

Gloria picchetti (296)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 5:38 am
Noted. Thank you.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 6:23 am
Tommy S, Christians murdering in the name of their god are certainly Christians - in most cases they're just lousy Christians. A person can believe in a given god (which makes them a member of that religion) and still break that god's commandments. If not following all the rules of a religion means one isn't a whatever, then no one's any kind of whatever (since no one can follow every rule all the time.)

And many Christians also've a belief their Bible, in its entirety, is the immutable and unalterable word of their god (including the Old Testament). And their god tells them that killing's not only acceptable but orders killing and atrocities in many cases. After all Jesus said that until heaven and earth pass away not one little bit of Mosaic Law is abolished. Mosaic Law's hardly humane. And even New Teatment law's not humane - Jesus reminded us that children who curse their parents should be killed and that those who were his enemies and wouldn't allow him to reign over them should be brought before him and killed. Homosexuals are worthy of death. Etc.

Any Christian who's followed his Bible literally is going to end up on death row for his crimes. You'd do well to read the Bible before talking about what the dictates of its god are or aren't.
 

Craig Zimmerman (86)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 6:29 am
There is of course a huge double standard in the media. If a Christian leader says anything negative about Islam there is a huge outcry, but Muslims nations commit horrible atrocities and the media says nothing.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 6:37 am
And, Tommy S, the Hadiths're not accepted as binding on all Mohammedans like the Koran is. Different sects of Mohammedanism accept different Hadiths and some are considered true and some not depending on the believer and the scholarly interpretation of reliability.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 8:23 am
Tommy S., your own words support what I said. 'until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law'.

Jesus' purported dying on the cross didn't cause 'heaven and earth' to 'disappear'. Things are still here. The earth's still here (though I can't speak for heaven, since I've a belief it doesn't exist to start with.) Which means Mosaic Law is, according to the New Testament, still in effect.

And as for your calling the Bible a 'penny dreadful', not quite sure where you've developed that belief. Since the Bible's the source of Biblical quotations, not penny dreadfuls.

The internal contradictions in the Bible (numerous, numerous, numerous) are what should convince us that it's no word from on high. But for believers, its words are actually on the page, whether anyone likes what they say or not.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 8:38 am
Different people're offended by many things, Tommy S. I've a belief that accuracy matters more than offense. The three Abrahamic faiths worship the same god, but each follows the teachings of a different primary law-giver (though there're many law-givers that each recognizes, each has a primary). Christians follow Christ. Mohammedans follow Mohammed. Mosaicists follow Moses. The general meaning of the word 'Islam' is submission to god. Too general, since all three faiths purportedly submit to the same god.
 

Gloria H. (88)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 8:49 am
Didn't the USSR not have a state religion and we were poised and ready to press the button and wipe out the entire world with WWIII? Let's face it, humans will continue to kill one another whether God, oil, land is involved or not. What a species. We are the only species to make it to the moon, yet we are ready to bomb the rest of the species to Hell, Hades, or nonexistance (pick whatever you believe). Sad.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 8:56 am
How strange you are, Tommy S. The quote you claim was incorrect was.....from your own quotation. And is quite correct.

But I see you've no interest in other than proselytizing. Facts can be debated but intransigent belief in the face of facts can't. Waste of time.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 9:42 am
@Tommy S.---you revealed yourself finally with this accusation of yours---"you are proof if any were needed that satan is alive and well". LOL! You use a belief in one religion to revile others---in this case the idea of 'Satan' in Christianity to revile anyone whom you wish to revile. In this case myself and Antonia. You're a religious bigot and hypocrite who uses religious ideas against others while you scream loud and long about how bad others are in their religion.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 1:01 pm
Well folks, this is Indonesia the tolerant country that the US president admires so much and supports. Compared to the Indonesian party of a few years ago in East Timor where they bumped off 300, 000 (coincidentally mainly non-Muslims) this is kids’ stuff. Even as we read this subject story the Obama approved and equipped Indonesian armed forces are in West Papua having fun invading, slaughtering and oppressing the non-Indonesian locals. Not one influential politician or lefty liberal or Care2 journalist in the USA, the EU or Australia or the UK gives a s**t about what West Papua is going through so why would they give a damn about a few churches?
 

monka blank (82)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 1:37 pm
I'm as well against any extremism, as Michela said. Green stars for Michela,Bernard, Antonia and Kenneth...at least they talk common sense, without choosing a particular side.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 6:33 pm
Indonesian Province Orders Destruction of 36 Churches, Seals 16 Others


Central Union Church, organized in 1887,
traces its roots to the Seamen's Bethel, founded in 1833.

The Bethel began the earliest regular church services
in English in the Hawaiian Kingdom.

In 1924, Central Union Church,
also known as the "Church in a Garden",
moved to its present location on Beretania Street.


http://www.centralunionchurch.org/
 

Joan H. (20)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 6:45 pm
Islam is a bad vile religion. Christians aren't killing people, at least as of late, because the Bible has told them to.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 7:16 pm
This story is about Churches being destroyed and sealed by intolerant Islamic extremists in Indonesia...NOT about WHO KNOWS BETTER/MORE about the religion of the oppressors and the religion of the ones being oppressed...For crying out loud - does everything always have to become a lengthy, pointless debate - "one-up-man-ship comes to mind"...many of the people posting here...ahem; "debating" are just so full of themselves and love to see their "cleverness" in print... Care2 REALLY SUCKS these days... I think I'll unsubscribe - it's not worth coming here and getting agitated over all this drivel... DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY OR CASTIGATE ME ...I'M TOO OLD TO CARE....
 

Penelope P. (222)
Sunday June 24, 2012, 11:37 pm
Nice to see Christians taking their religion seriously-Pity they are cheating on previous agreements though
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Monday June 25, 2012, 12:26 am
Penelope P, I don't see that an agreement made under threat's any kind of real agreement (and the Christian churches obviously had no other reason to 'agree' since there'd be no profit in it for them to restrict themselves like that).
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Monday June 25, 2012, 3:18 am
Barbara K- what are Christians doing? Just trying to survive in a sea of violent Muslims who beat their our brethren to death over being in the wrong sect. The Indonesian police just shrug and say- 'why don't you just conform to the mainstream Islam and your sons won't get killed' to the grieving mothers. Great- nice country. nice religion- soooo peaceful and tolerant.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Monday June 25, 2012, 4:49 am
Indonesia has some 250 millions of Muslims, that is 1/6th of ALL Muslims in the world (about 1,500 MILLIONS). Islam is a supremacist ideology, similar to supremacist Nazi ideology, together with its delusional Jew hatred in addition to disdain for Christianity (dhiimmies) desire to murder "infidels", and promoting pedophilia, polygamy, misogyny and murder for Allahu Akbar. Islam is incompatible with either US Constitution or with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which most Muslims-majority countries (some 57 of them) refused to sign. However, State Department give diplomats from those perpetual violators of human rights visas to enter US and defame Israel, the only country that DOES respect human rights.

Obama allows Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist organization in, and bows to Saudi king, whose subjects had committed crimes of 9/11. Obama extolls Islam and Koran, while dissing Hebrew and Christian Bible. Barak Hussein Obama has no respect for human rights and the US Constitution and must be retired in November. State Department should start enforcing its own laws against terrorism and stop Islamists to find home in USA.
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday June 25, 2012, 7:11 am
Tommy S ,"The koran is a book without context making no sense "

Your statement tells me one thing about you! You are an ignorant bigot! If you
don't understand your own religion of christianity correctly, how do you
expect to understand the religion of Islam which you hate and fear! You need
to educate yourself in Christianity too!

Tommy, Btw, Antonio makes more sense of the verses from the Bible than you do! You
are one confused bigot with the main goal of spreading Hate and division amongst
people of this world!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 25, 2012, 7:36 am
Vlasta, you must be a real gem to live with for all the muslims around you in Cincinnati. You should go around and tell any muslim and non-muslim kids in grade school that are friends, and every non-muslim and mulsim students in high school who are friends, and all non-muslim and muslim college and university students that are friends what you think. You'll be looked at as pathetic.
You speak entirely in generalities. "Israel, the only country that DOES respect human rights" How can any sane person say that about ANY country in such a generality?
Not all muslims are 'out to get you'. And that would be millions of them.
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday June 25, 2012, 8:55 am
Joan hanion, "islam is a bad vile religion."

At least I have to give you credit for speaking the Truth that, Islam is a religion!
Is it possible for a 'bad vile' person to see anything except vile and bad in everything, that doesn't
appeal to her??
 

Carola May (20)
Monday June 25, 2012, 10:22 am
Well, Mary P has shown up to spread her Taqiyya - lying to promote Islam, a time honored command from Allah. Mary P (not a very Muslim name, so we have to wonder what it really is) is a paid worker at the Islamic Propaganda Centre in Durban, So. Africa, so she is a master at avoiding answering truthfully about Islamic teachings and law, so she always denies and calls names, tho she hasn't used her usual one 'copy and paste from anti-islamic hate sites' - which is funny because those 'ugly' hateful quotes that upset her so come right out of her own holy books - the Qur'an and ahadith.

Mary P, or whatever your name is, are you going to quote what your Islamic holy books say about how 'disbelievers' are supposed to be treated? Like 'kill disbelievers wherever you find them', or 'take not the Jews and the Christians for friends', most Christians and Jews 'are evil livers'. How about the commands to kill all Jews so your Muslim day of resurrection will come? And don't even try to quote those abrogated verses for we'll show you up on those/

You are a fine one to use the word 'vile' when it is your own ideology of hate that commands death to anyone who criticizes or leaves Islam and for gay people.

Come now, tell Islamophile Kenneth, who admits to knowing nothing about Islamic teachings, that you renounce these ugly commands for killing. He is too lazy to ask all those good Muslims he knows if they will renounce these Islamic commands direct from Mohammed himself.

Tell us all that Islam teaches that all religion should be treated equally under islamic law. Of course, we know that is not true and can never be allowed.

You never are able to prove anything quoted from your own religion is false. You just rant for having the evil exposed. Kind of like shining a light on a vampire, huh?

Come on and renounce the teachings that Jesus was a Muslim and didn't die on the cross, wasn't the son of god and wasn't resurrected. That's pretty hateful against Christ and very blasphemous to Christians, but you don't care do you? You only care that the truth about Islam is never spoken so, thus, the invention by your Muslim Brotherhood/CAIR friends - 'Islamophobia' to shout each time anyone starts to expose the lies and the hate.

You are a hateful, bigoted person promoting a cult of hate and death that insults and blasphemes Jesus Christ and calls for the extermination of all Jews (the ones Allah didn't already turn into apes and pigs anyway - talk about vile teachings and hate). Well, many of us are starting to study it for ourselves instead of believing all the propaganda you Centre puts out.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday June 25, 2012, 1:53 pm
ROTFL! Carola, you're so full of sh.. and hate you can't think straight. First off, there is no such word as 'islamophile'. Doesn't exist. Second, I have never admitted I 'know nothing about Islamic teachings'. LIE. I know some things about it. As for 'being lazy' (LOL) your statement of 'ask all these good Muslims' reveals yourself----

One thing that drives a hatemonger like Carola May berserk is if anyone says ANYTHING GOOD about that which they hate. Drives 'em nuts. Can't tolerate it. Can't stand it. It just can't be. The idea that millions of non-muslim children are friends with muslim children, or non-muslim teenagers are friends with muslim teenagers, or non-muslim college/university students are friends with muslim college/university students IS AN IDEA NOT TO BE TOLERATED by a hatemonger like Carola May. It must be a 'trick' or 'not real' or 'not true'. But is IS real and true.

Carola is like all the rest of the self-righteous little bigots who make sure they have own their ass covered (they hope) with their own personal spiritual or religious or non-religious beliefs so they can yell loud and continuous at how bad other human beings are (but not them of course).

 

Mary P. (157)
Monday June 25, 2012, 2:30 pm
Thank you Kenneth! I totally agree with your words about Carola May! She is
drowning in her inner fear and hatred for Islam and muslims! I feel sorry for her
family who has to deal with her paranoia and fearful existence!
She probably scares to go outdoors in case a muslim will pounce on
her and KILL her! Lol! Lol! Lol!
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday June 25, 2012, 2:53 pm
Carola, Please remove your inner fears and hatred and you will learn to
appreciate and love all fellow human beings irrelevant of religion, country, race and cultures!

From the Holy Quran:
"I worship not that which you worship, 

"Nor will you worship that which I worship. 

"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. 

"Nor will you worship that which I worship. 

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

Carola , I pray you have a peaceful and serene life!!
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday June 25, 2012, 3:30 pm
Carola, " - lying to promote Islam, "

I don't have to lift a finger to promote Islam; you and others like you
are doing an excellent job all by your hateful selves! The more lies and false stories you
spread about Islam , the more interested people wil search for the truth of
Islam; and educate themselves about the religion of islam, which over a billion people of this
world follows!
 

Joan H. (20)
Monday June 25, 2012, 7:00 pm
Perhaps the reason there's over a billion people is because they proliferate like rabbits and they kill off Christians wherever they find them. Mary P and Kenneth L maybe need to take a road trip promoting their pro islamic spirituality to perhaps Pakistan, Libya, Iran, Iraq. The Sunni's are killings Shite's in Iraq or is it vice versa. Yes, we all need to get educated on the peaceful religion of Islam, I guess some more than others.
Yes, I'm a bigot, I guess you have a problem with that, I don't!

"I will instil terror into the hearts of the Infidels: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
 

Carola May (20)
Monday June 25, 2012, 11:51 pm
Mary P, as usual you never renounce the commands of Mohammed to kill those who criticize or leave Islam and gay people.

You never have condemned Islam's history of violent conquest and mass murder to take over all the lands it now oppresses and rules. 270 million murdered, 30,000 churches destroyed in Islam's lust for power in its invasions and forced colonisations. Let's hear you say this was wrong.

You never condemn the daily violent atrocities Islamists commit in forcing Sharia zones around the world.

You never condemn the ethnic cleansing violence going on right now in many Muslim occupied lands from Nigeria to Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia et al. Let's hear you renounce Allah's call to fight non-Muslims 'until all religion is for Allah'.

Let's hear you renounce following Mohammed's command & Allah's condoning of filthy paedophiles 'marrying' little girls and using them for sex. Any decent human being is horrified by this ungodly act. Let's hear you condemn it.

Let's hear you renounce Mohammed's slaughter of hundreds of Jews, taking of their wives for sex slaves or more 'wives' & selling others & kids as slaves. And Islam's still condoning of owning slaves.

You never do renounce these ugly, evil tenets of Islam. Islam is not growing faster than anything else. That's another Islamist fantasy according to the 2011 Pew Poll on Religion. And if Muslims weren't threatened with death and violence for leaving Islam who knows what a flood there would be.

Islam fears questioning and criticism because it can't hold up to that, that's why it is illegal in Muslim dominated countries to leave Islam and why all internet sites that tell the truth of Mo and islam are blocked. Truth never fears questions or criticism. Only lies fear them.

Yes, I hate and oppose the hate of Islam. I've read the mediocre, hateful Qur'an and the disgusting perversions and cruelty of the hadith, even the whitewash bio of the sira. Have you ever read these all in a language you can understand? Obviously not. There are 109 verses of hate toward non-Muslims in the Qur'an alone. The Islamic trilogy has more hate toward Jews than Hitler's 'Mein Kampf', which is still popular in Muslim occupied lands, with those who can read anyway.

Kenneth L you should be ashamed to be defending this hateful ideology that demands death for simply questioning or leaving this cult of death. What kind of man defends evil like this? Do you also defend the killing of gay people and the treatment of women 'like domestic animals', as Mohammed said in his farewell speech? You 2 are the haters for not renouncing this litany of hate, violence, paedophilia, banditry, blasphemy, intolerance and death. Sickening.

You can call names and deny but you can't prove anything I say.

Here Kenneth praise and defend this:
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Muhammad said, "Allah marvels at those who are brought to paradise in chains" (Bukhari 52:254)

"I have been made victorious with terror." Mohammed, Bukhari 4:52:220

“He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth [Islam], that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.” Q 9:33

Let's hear you two renounce these verses of hate. Hmmm, such silence. You'll just come back with your usual empty denials and name calling. Kenneth would probably defend those opposing Nazism too, which had many common beliefs and goals as Islam, after all there were some nice Nazis, right? No one is so blind as he who will not see.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 1:41 am
Well said Joan - however no way is ISLAM A RELIGION - it is a cult - and ideology so deeply entrenched in the stoneage and for so long - it will never become the balanced, compassionate,loving ideal that Christianity is. Any Christian who kills for the sake of killing is NO CHRISTIAN AT ALL. This is made very clear in the Bible - in the Commandments and in the New Testament - even to the last Commandment given by our Lord Jesus Christ - that ye LOVE ONE ANOTHER. That is something that is often lacking on these posts - with Mary and Kenneth 'fleshing' out their vituperation and yet professing to hold onto Christian values. Somewhere along the way they appear to have lost the gist of what it is all about.
 

Stan B. (123)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 2:31 am
Kenneth L. You have posted 4 comments all of which are totally irrelevant. The subject is Indonesia's persecution of Christians which you obviously haven't bothered to read about.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 5:48 am
I've no understanding of why Kenneth's being criticized by those against Mohammedanism. He's not taken sides nor has he proclaimed his support for that religion. He's pointed out facts, which is a good thing. Anyone who's a disliking of something should base their dislike on facts and a lot don't. Just as too many are of the mind that straying from the heart of a topic's only bad if the strayer doesn't say what the objector wants him to say. Unreasonable one-sidedness's not a good thing and facts are facts.

There are too many propoganda wars going on in the world about religion.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 6:22 am
Wrong Stan B,, I have read it. What you consider relevant or irrelevant is well, irrelevant.

Yes Pat and edw. Islam is a religion, every dictionary defines it as one. So you're wrong right from square one and everything out of your mouth from that point is based on a wrongness. A couple more evangelizing Christian fundies who are self-righteous in THEIR beliefs and hate their fellow humans, specifically Muslims in this case. They hate a billion human beings but cry foul if someone attacks a few on these threads.. That's rich! .

As for Carola May "Kenneth L you should be ashamed to be defending this hateful ideology that demands death for simply questioning or leaving this cult of death. What kind of man defends evil like this? Do you also defend the killing of gay people and the treatment of women 'like domestic animals', as Mohammed said in his farewell speech?"
"Kenneth would probably defend those opposing Nazism too, which had many common beliefs and goals as Islam, after all there were some nice Nazis, right?"

You're simply nuts. Again you're so full of hate you actually go to the length of trying to squash someone as being 'anti-gay' 'anti-women' 'defender of Nazis' because they don't agree with your level of hate for something? ROTFL!
You're dangerous only in that you prey on weak-minded individuals, such as Joan H. "Perhaps the reason there's over a billion people is because they proliferate like rabbits and they kill off Christians wherever they find them". No reasoning person of any appreciable IQ could actually believe that or actually say it. That's another 'customer' of a fear and chaos merchant such as Carola May.









.



 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 7:15 am
Interesting how defenders of Islam often mention how "a billion people believe it." If a billion people believe in Santa Claus.....does that make it true? Or good?

Rules for defending Islam...

1. Deny, deny, deny. Islamists never do anything wrong. Deny facts--churches aren't burned, women aren't stoned to death, apostates aren't beheaded, people aren't murdered for speaking their minds, etc. Deny the basic premise of this thread.....ignore facts and practice rule #2.....(see below)

2. Insult those who point out these facts....call them "stupid," "readers of KNOWN HATE SITES", "nuts," etc.

3. Blame Israel, Jews, Zionists

4. See rule #1........and repeat
 

Mary P. (157)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 8:20 am
Carola, " Do you also defend the killing of gay people and the treatment of women 'like domestic animals', as Mohammed said in his farewell speech? "

When you open your mouth Only Lies fall out! You spew out nothing but Bullshit!
Your total ignorance about Islam precedes you.

Here is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Farewell Speech:

After praising, and thanking Allah (arabic for God) he (pbuh) said:

?

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before Allah and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people"

Shame all you poor haters , spreading lies and false information! Educate yourselves!
I am not here to keep showing up your lies!
 

Mary P. (157)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 9:08 am
Pam,
there is no need to defend Islam! Its beauty speaks for itself! That is, ONLY if you have eyes to
see its beauty!

Btw you describe your Own behavior sooooo perfrectly!!
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 10:05 am
"Its beauty speaks for itself." Guess I'm missing the eyes to see how beheadings, stonings, murder of apostates, torture of non-muslims.....is "beautiful."

Once again, Mary P....you've "denied" "ignored" and "insulted" because THIS thread is about tyranny against Christians in a Muslim nation.

 

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 11:06 am
Religions've most of them large swathes of ugly things. Mohammedanism's no exception there.
 

Mary P. (157)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 2:47 pm
Pam, " Guess I'm missing the eyes to see how beheadings,"
Guess you prefer to see America's drone attacks on innocent civilians;
bombing the heads off little babies; enjoy seeing one million iraqi women widowed and
children orphaned ; torturous 'waterboarding' of innocent afghani men and women; stealing of the muslim countries natural resources; america and nato's 'Wars of
Greed' are more your scene! Not forgetting hate and lies!
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 8:14 pm
Yep---Mary....

Rule #1....Deny, deny, deny...never EVER admit Islam is brutal, violent, prejudiced and hypocritical
#2....Insult others...must be the US fault...or western/NATO
#3...Blame Jews
 

Mary P. (157)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 11:45 pm
Pam, you and your 'hate' friends have a warped and false version of what Islam is! But love to
spread it as if its the gospel truth! Any fool knows not to blame a religion for
all the evil of its followers! Get a education! Maybe u need an islamic education as
your western education is failing you in your thinking process! Too much of stereotyping,
bias, hate and fear! I hear even some of the soldiers are TAUGHT that islam is the enemy
of America and must be destroyed! Sic!!! Paranoid!! That's western education for you!
 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 12:34 am
Btw Pam, islam teaches to love not just neighbors but one's enemies too! We are commanded to
Fight ONLY those that fight you; even in war a muslim is commanded not to
hurt\kill children, women and the elderly, no animals, plants nor infrastructures
are to be destroyed\damaged! And if an enemy makes his intent to stop and asks for
safety, then he must be taken to a place of safety and released! Unlike the nato and american soldiers,
who kill innocent children and civilians; go from door to door killing its 'perceived' enemies and with their
intense bombings, completely destroying countries and its innocent civilians (co-lateral damages)!
 

Carola May (20)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 1:32 am
Mary P, your statements are outrageous in their dishonesty. Give us the quotes from the Qur'an or hadith that command Muslims to 'love their non-Muslim neighbours'. You are told to only care for good Muslims but not to even take non-Muslims as friends, your deity of hate, violence and punishment doesn't like it - he even tells Mohammed and his thugs how great they are for killing non-Muslims and gives them 'booty', the goods stolen from their many victims. This is not a god of love and forgiveness. The evidence is against your dishonesty.

You Muslims constantly chant 'peace and tolerance' but you don't practice it and Islam certainly doesn't teach it. I notice you don't give any scriptural proofs for your distortions. Taqiyya plain and simple.

Here's what Islam really says - right out of its scriptures:

From 'The Reliance of the Traveller' Islam's premier text of Sharia law/jurisprudence accepted by Azahar university in Cairo, Islam's Vatican:
w59.2 tells that it is not inconsistent to accept something but hate it at the same time- accept it because Allah decrees it, but hate it because Allah says it’s bad, even though He ordered it!: eg:
‘And this clarifies the Koranic verses and hadiths about hatred for
the sake of Allah and love for the sake of Allah,
being unyielding towards the unbelievers, hard
against them, and detesting them, while accepting
the destiny of Allah Most High insofar as it is the
decree of Allah Mighty and Majestic’

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Sahih Muslim Book 26:5389 recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,
(Do not initiate the Salam [peace greeting] to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.)

"Muhammed is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful the among themselves." 48:29 Where's the 'love your neighbour'?

"Lo! Those who disbelieve our revelations, we shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed we shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment (again). Lo! Allah is ever mighty, wise." 4:56 (but not forgiving or merciful) This helps engender hatred of non-Muslims

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Mohammed, Ibn Ishaq 992

"War is ordained of Allah." 2:216

"Killing unbelievers (non-Muslims) is a small matter to us." Mohammed, Tabari 9:69

"He (Allah) does not love the unbelievers." 30:45 How can Muslims love their neighbours when even your god doesn't love them?

"The infidels should not think they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." 5:51

Non-Muslims are "the most vile of created beings." 98:6

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax (Jizya, non-Muslim heavy tax) in acknowledgment of superiority (of Islam) and they are in a state of subjection(humiliation). “ Q 9:29 This is not the message of a loving god and this is not about loving your neighbour, let alone your enemy.

“. . . strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.” Q 9:73

“He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth [Islam], that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.” Q 9:33

"Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the
unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and
incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers
and toes." Qur'an 8.12

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Show the quotes that haven't been abrogated already that back up your lies. You can't, that's why you deny, make things up and call names. You can't prove any of what I, and others, say because we quote it right from your own holy books - the original hate sites.

If you are embarrassed by Islam's lies and hate and Mohammed's debauched criminal life, then quit apologising for it and find a spiritual path that really does teach to love neighbours and enemies and that teaches the Golden Rule, which Islam does not.

One would think you'd get tired of lying and apologising for such a hateful ideology. How sad you are.
 

Carola May (20)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 1:37 am
Mary P, your obfuscations are so pathetic really. All you have to do to gain some credibility and respect is to simply renounce Islam's commands to kill those who criticise or leave it and gay people, and its teachings of the inferiority of women. BUT you don't and you won't. THAT says it all.

You can deny all you want, but Pam W is right - you never give anything to prove your disinformation.

MARY P, WE ARE ALL WAITING FOR YOU TO RENOUNCE THESE KILLINGS. Of course, you won't because you DO believe in them. Google Taqiyya folks and see this Islamic tenet that condones lying about anything as long as it promotes Islam. Sick.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 1:43 am
Yes, Mary P, the paid Islamist propagandist who never can prove anything she says except the few odd scriptures that have all been cancelled, as she well knows.

Mary, answer Carola M's challenge to you. Renounce these killings and these teachings as the primitive barbarism that they are. But we've asked you to the same every time you show up and you have never renounce them, just rant and rave. Well, ignorant people like Kenneth may fall for your act, but those of us who have actually read your unholy books know better.

BTW Mary, we notice you have not condemned this most Islamic act of destroying and banning churches. All this talk about loving neighbors and enemies but here is the proof otherwise and you can't even condemn this! How stupid do you think we all are?

Mohammed forced everyone in the Arabian penninsula to convert, or he killed them and stole all their goods, or he forced them to flee. That's the example you Muslims are supposed to follow so don't pretend otherwise.

Will you renounce Mohammed's actions on this? Yeah, sure.
 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 3:36 am
Carola ," WE ARE ALL WAITING FOR YOU"

O your highness ! I am so sorry ( lol!) but your hearts are sealed! Deaf, dumb and blind, you all (haters) will loiter
this earth until the day of judgement! Keep waiting dear carola and fellow haters to hear the
Truth on the Day of judgement! I owe you all NOTHING! Maybe you aught to ask Bush, cheney, the zionist and
American Governments, why they do what they do to all of mankind!
 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 5:07 am
You know I feel pity for you haters! Your worst nightmare and enemy of every middle class and poor
Is right at your doorstep - THE ELITE BANKERS ; but you are too busy hating me and fellow muslims;
Its sad that the Elites have managed to keep you this distracted and consumed with such hatred, that
you cannot see beyond your inner fears and hatred for islam and muslims! I only pray and hope you don't
wake up to your own realities when its too late (find yourself a slave to your own kind).

Btw I love you all and may you have inner peace! Take care all! :)

Please 'Haters' do me one favor! Stop targeting KENNETH! ; he is NOT
Defending Islam( islam don't need defending)!!! Kenneth is defending
Humanity!! Please open your eyes ( covered in hate) to see correctly!!
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 6:44 am
For a long time, I've doubted the idea that someone would be PAID to come here and babble nonsense. But, Mary P....you are either completely brain-washed or you've been paid.

There's no other reason. An intelligent, reasoning person would/could actually address issues without having to parrot nonsense over and over and over.

Several people here have asked that you renounce these killings....you've done nothing but ramble on with selections from your collection of Islamisms....slogans....meaningless insults, deflections, etc.

So...either you're brain-washed.....or you're a paid parrot.

Either way, it's totally ineffective, meaningless and a waste of time.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 6:59 am
Those on the inside are definitely less likely to either see the faults of a thing or to care (or else see the faults as justifiable). Especially true of religion, since if taught that something's perfect then no matter what the religion contains it must be justifiable. One's foolish to expect most Mohammedans'll look at the teachings of the Koran critically - that which's believed perfect needs no criticism and doubting divine perfection's something to be suppressed. And in the perfectionist worldview, that's to be expected. Unfortunately any perfectionist worldview's by nature harmful. But I've no feeling we'll ever escape most of them.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 10:06 am
I was born an indigenous person in the UK to two staunch atheist parents. My search for the truth about our existence took me through a wide variety of philosophers and then metaphysics and eventually I had no choice but to look into religion for answers as there are no sensible or rational answers to the origin of life anywhere else.

I have spent quarter of a century researching all the Great Faiths and Islam is the natural conclusion to them. All the monotheistic religions continue one another, and do not run parallel to one another. The path that began with Adam, Noah, Moses and Jesus, (peace be upon them and their families) culminates with Muhammad (sal Allahu aleihi wa alih). We have been showered with Mercy with increasingly magnificent versions of the same God-Given Eternal Truths, each one revealing more, according to the times and our ability to comprehend, subhanAllah. Here is proof of this from the undisputed source of our religion, the Holy Quran;

"Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve."

"Surely We gave Moses the Scripture and caused a train of Messengers to follow him and then sent Jesus, the son of Mary, with Clear Proofs and supported him with the spirit of holiness. But is it not true that every time a Messenger brought to you something that was not to your liking, you acted arrogantly: you called some Messengers liars and killed others?" (Al-Baqara 2:87)

"And now that there has come to them a Book from Allah, how are they treating it? Even though it confirms the Truth already in their possession, and even though they had prayed for victory against the unbelievers, and yet when that Book came to them – and they recognized it – they refused to acknowledge its Truth. Allah’s curse be upon the unbelievers." (Al-Baqara 2:89)

"They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture* there is an upright people who recite the revelations of Allah in the watches of the night and prostrate themselves in worship. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and hasten to excel each other in doing good. These are among the righteous. Whatever good they do shall not go unappreciated, and Allah fully knows those who are pious." (Al i'Imran 3:113-115).

"And among the People of the Book* some believe in Allah and what has been revealed to you, and what has been revealed to them. They humble themselves before Allah, and do not sell Allah's revelations for a small price. For these men their reward is with their Lord. Allah is swift in His reckoning." (Al-i'Imran 3:199)

*Jews and Christians

The Holy Quran confirms that Christianity and Judaism were bona fide paths to God but Islam is the latest version. It is the only scripture narrated at the time by the Holy Prophet himself (sall Allahu ʿalay-hi wasallam). It is the verbatim word of God. For an open hearted soul, this is evident when reciting it.

So there is no reason for true Muslims to dislike or discourage our Christian and Jewish brethren; they are family since we are all worshipers of the same One God (Mighty and Majestic).

Islam has no faults; I had no loyalty to Islam when I first held the Generous Quran in my hand but sadly people from every walk of life do have lackings in their goodness. Evil is nothing more than a lack of goodness. The destruction this article discusses is not Islam. Islam respects all other religions in the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) taught us the same respect of others by his perfect example.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 11:59 am
Pam, you're barking again.
And as I said before, any idiot can use that tired cliche of 'lie, deny, and insult' against another person anytime they want to make themselves right and the other person wrong. You're kindergarten material..
Since you're barking about addressing things, you've never addressed the fact that you've attacked me for being Amish, which I'm not. You've never addressed the fact that you've attacked me as some 'warrior of Christ', which I'm not. Those attacks are proof of your religious bigotry. And if you can do it regarding Amish and Christianity you can do it with Islam and frankly any other religion you can get your self-righteous grubby little hands on.

Oh, Rob and Jay, you accuse Mary P. of being a "paid Islamist propagandist'. Now just what exactly is your proof of that? (Since everyone is barking about Mary P. having to address questions.) I notice Pam instantly jumped on the 'paid' accusation too. Let me guess, you have NO proof. Yet it's stated by you as 'truth' when it is only your hate-mongering opinion. Which makes one wonder how many other 'truths' you spew out that aren't really truths at all.

And here is another example of Carola May's insanity: "You Muslims constantly chant 'peace and tolerance' but you don't practice it". Oh really? Now how can you hope to back up such a stinking sweeping generality as that? You know all the muslims on the planet? Typical fare from a chaos merchant and hate-monger, using sweeping generalities which you pretend represents 'everyone' so as to overwhelm others.
The muslims I've known did practice peace and tolerance. What to challenge that? I know that idea blows to shit your generality even in that tiny little reference and the idea of any peaceful and tolerant muslim drives you nuts but that's your problem Don't make it other's.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 12:01 pm
Loudmouth know-it-alls, galore. My non-favorite kind of people.
 

Brian M. (199)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 12:20 pm
If the history of religion proves anything, it's that all religions lead to suffering and violence.
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 1:54 pm
Rules for defending Islam

1. Deny, deny, deny ("Islam is perfect." Everything else must be an illusion, I suppose. All those murders, beheadings, stonings, church-burnings, jihads for apostasy, etc....just an illusion.)
2. Insult anyone who insists on using logic and valid questioning.
3. Blame Jews.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 8:53 am
It appears that some here would apply the same flawed logic that would mean the secular laws of a country are the reason that a small proportion of its subjects are criminals. This is an absurd notion and so is blaming Islam when someone who may be from a country largely populated by Muslims, commits some abhorrent act. No religion has ever been responsible for evil; even the notion that religion causes wars is absurd; empire building and tyranny have been responsible for war but evil people attempt to shift the blame from themselves - I never met anyone who actually wanted a war - only pure psychopaths start wars. It is categorically forbidden in Islam to aggress (for proof see Al-Baqarah 2:190-194).

The religion of Islam is not responsible for these churches getting burned or any other evil for that matter. Humans have limited freewill; this means that if they lack goodness, their actions may sometimes be evil. The religion or philosophy they claim to belong to is irrelevant. Can you blame Christianity when a westerner transgresses? Or the ideology of atheism when an atheist is a perpetrator of evil? It is ludicrous - those who engage in this weak conjecture and pitifully foolish generalisations are clutching at straws to malign Islam for evil purposes.

I have proven earlier on this thread, with referenced ayahs from the Noble Quran, that all adherents of the Great Faiths are united by the pure truth of Islam. We share nearly all of the same prophets (peace be upon them all) and our teachings all affirm the most important Truth that there are no gods except The One Almighty God (Jalla Jalaluhu). As if that wasn't already enough to make loving siblings out of all the believers, there are countless references to the same eternal truths and even some shared recounting and clarifications of the same events from the earlier versions of God's religion. If an individual chooses not to abide by these Divine Truths, they have left the Path of Islam - of all Great Faiths and only that particular individual can be held accountable for their sins. The foolishness of generalising and racist/bigoted mentalities is the sort of remedial instruction they teach at primary schools! (Btw, Islam is also an Abrahamic faith)

There have been so many lies on the corporate mass media and internet news sites like this one it is now folly to believe any of their propaganda. There have been countless 'mistakes' (read: lies) that have been admitted by the mass media and almost everyone knows the World Trade Centre attacks were not what we were told they were. In any case, whether it is evil agents burning churches or mercenaries (paid for to help foment propaganda) and even if it really is a small group of psychotic Indonesians, Islam is not to blame here and neither are the Indonesian people at large. We Muslims are instructed by the Holy Quran to treat all others kindly - just as we would our own elderly parents (including atheists).

Proselytising is forbidden so there is no question of forcing anyone to accept Islam - this is strictly and categorically forbidden (for proof please see the Quran; Al-Baqarah 2:256, An-Nisaa' 4:115, Al-Ma'idah 5:92, Yunus 10:99, Hud 11:28 and Al-Kahf 18: 29). Even so, Islam is still growing fast and welcomes the greatest number of converts - more than any other religion at this time.

A church where The One God (May He be glorified and exalted) is worshiped is also sacred to Muslims. You can see here in this wonderfully heart-warming video taken inside a Christian church where Muslims and Christians are heeding the Adhan or 'Call to Prayer';

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QOKG_JZ6fA

We can choose to cherish our differences or we can succumb to childish fears and prejudicial and bigoted hatred. God willing, we will all learn to accept one another in as civilised and mature manner as all of the believers in this video. I believe this is the case for all but a tiny yet very busy vocal minority. The Pentagon paid several million dollars on software (from Ntrepid; an arms dealer) to facilitate simultaneous running of multiple fake personalities for internet communities to further their agendas (mushroom management - keep us in the dark and feed us manure!).

No one in their right mind would spend their days for year after year inventing lies and spreading them in the hope that some gullible fools with join their unholy crusade against all that is good, even if they were paid fortunes to do so. One cannot achieve happiness or success while knowingly committing evil. These wretched souls breed division and hatred only in themselves and their kind and eventually they doom themselves to unimaginable misery. The chaos they foment will only bring the pious ever closer to Allah (Azza wa Jall).

From the Holy Quran;

Warn mankind of the Day when the punishment will reach them. Those who did wrong will say: "Our Lord, reprieve us for a short time. We will respond to Your call and follow the Messengers." [But it will be said] "But did you not swear to Me before that you would never meet your downfall, even though you inhabited the houses of those who had wronged themselves, and it was made clear to you how We had dealt with them, and We gave you many examples?" (Surah Ibrahim, 44-45)

Know that the life of this world is merely a game and a diversion, and ostentation and a cause of boasting among yourselves, and trying to outdo one another in wealth and children: like the plant-growth after rain, which delights the cultivators, but then it withers and you see it turning yellow, and then it becomes broken stubble. In the Hereafter, there is terrible punishment but also forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure. The life of this world is nothing but the enjoyment of delusion. (Surat al-Hadid, 20)

I pray that The One Almighty God (subhanahu wa ta'ala) blesses all those true adherents from all His Great Faiths and unite us in peace and harmony, ameen. My love and prayers to my Christian, Jewish, Sabaean and all true monotheist cousins; may you all succeed in realising closeness to Our Creator (Mighty and Majestic) with comfort and ease inshallah, ameen.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 9:17 am
It appears that some here would apply the same flawed logic that would mean the secular laws of a country are the reason that a small proportion of its subjects are criminals. This is an absurd notion and so is blaming Islam when someone who may be from a country largely populated by Muslims, commits some abhorrent act. No religion has ever been responsible for evil; even the notion that religion causes wars is absurd; empire building and tyranny have been responsible for war but evil people attempt to shift the blame from themselves - I never met anyone who actually wanted a war - only pure psychopaths start wars. It is categorically forbidden in Islam to aggress (for proof see Al-Baqarah 2:190-194).

The religion of Islam is not responsible for these churches getting burned or any other evil for that matter. Humans have limited freewill; this means that if they lack goodness, their actions may sometimes be evil. The religion or philosophy they claim to belong to is irrelevant. Can you blame Christianity when a westerner transgresses? Or the ideology of atheism when an atheist is a perpetrator of evil? It is ludicrous - those who engage in this weak conjecture and pitifully foolish generalisations are clutching at straws to malign Islam for evil purposes.

I have proven earlier on this thread, with referenced ayahs from the Noble Quran, that all adherents of the Great Faiths are united by the pure truth of Islam. We share nearly all of the same prophets (peace be upon them all) and our teachings all affirm the most important Truth that there are no gods except The One Almighty God (Jalla Jalaluhu). As if that wasn't already enough to make loving siblings out of all the believers, there are countless references to the same eternal truths and even some shared recounting and clarifications of the same events from the earlier versions of God's religion. If an individual chooses not to abide by these Divine Truths, they have left the Path of Islam - of all Great Faiths and only that particular individual can be held accountable for their sins. The foolishness of generalising and racist/bigoted mentalities is the sort of remedial instruction they teach at primary schools! (Btw, Islam is also an Abrahamic faith)

There have been so many lies on the corporate mass media and internet news sites like this one it is now folly to believe any of their propaganda. There have been countless 'mistakes' (read: lies) that have been admitted by the mass media and almost everyone knows the World Trade Centre attacks were not what we were told they were. In any case, whether it is evil agents burning churches or mercenaries (paid for to help foment propaganda) and even if it really is a small group of psychotic Indonesians, Islam is not to blame here and neither are the Indonesian people at large. We Muslims are instructed by the Holy Quran to treat all others kindly - just as we would our own elderly parents (including atheists).

Proselytising is forbidden so there is no question of forcing anyone to accept Islam - this is strictly and categorically forbidden (for proof please see the Quran; Al-Baqarah 2:256, An-Nisaa' 4:115, Al-Ma'idah 5:92, Yunus 10:99, Hud 11:28 and Al-Kahf 18: 29). Even so, Islam is still growing fast and welcomes the greatest number of converts - more than any other religion at this time.

A church where The One God (May He be glorified and exalted) is worshiped is also sacred to Muslims. You can see here in this wonderfully heart-warming video taken inside a Christian church where Muslims and Christians are heeding the Adhan or 'Call to Prayer';

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QOKG_JZ6fA

We can choose to cherish our differences or we can succumb to childish fears and prejudicial and bigoted hatred. God willing, we will all learn to accept one another in as civilised and mature manner as all of the believers in this video. I believe this is the case for all but a tiny yet very busy vocal minority. The Pentagon paid several million dollars on software (from Ntrepid; an arms dealer) to facilitate simultaneous running of multiple fake personalities for internet communities to further their agendas (mushroom management - keep us in the dark and feed us manure!).

No one in their right mind would spend their days for year after year inventing lies and spreading them in the hope that some gullible fools with join their unholy crusade against all that is good, even if they were paid fortunes to do so. One cannot achieve happiness or success while knowingly committing evil. These wretched souls breed division and hatred only in themselves and their kind and eventually they doom themselves to unimaginable misery. The chaos they foment will only bring the pious ever closer to Allah (Azza wa Jall).

From the Holy Quran;

Warn mankind of the Day when the punishment will reach them. Those who did wrong will say: "Our Lord, reprieve us for a short time. We will respond to Your call and follow the Messengers." [But it will be said] "But did you not swear to Me before that you would never meet your downfall, even though you inhabited the houses of those who had wronged themselves, and it was made clear to you how We had dealt with them, and We gave you many examples?" (Surah Ibrahim, 44-45)

Know that the life of this world is merely a game and a diversion, and ostentation and a cause of boasting among yourselves, and trying to outdo one another in wealth and children: like the plant-growth after rain, which delights the cultivators, but then it withers and you see it turning yellow, and then it becomes broken stubble. In the Hereafter, there is terrible punishment but also forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure. The life of this world is nothing but the enjoyment of delusion. (Surat al-Hadid, 20)

I pray that The One Almighty God (subhanahu wa ta'ala) blesses all those true adherents from all His Great Faiths and unite us in peace and harmony, ameen. My love and prayers to my Christian, Jewish, Sabaean and all true monotheist cousins; may you all succeed in realising closeness to Our Creator (Mighty and Majestic) with comfort and ease inshallah, ameen.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 9:32 am
PS. Please verify the various misquotes that propagandists have taken from hate sites and pasted here in order to try to dissuade others from the tranquillity of closeness to God (Azza wa Jall) though the path of Islam. Their aim is only to mislead for whatever evil reasons.

'Reliance of the Traveller' is a little known fraudulent book; an impersonator of Islam, designed for the purpose of maligning religion. It was invented by an evil agent and is quoted by evil agents - It has little in common with the real Islam. Please see the Holy Quran if you wish to know the Truth of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq is considered to be a 'mudallis'; meaning one who did not name his teacher - many respected scholars will not rely on any of his narrations and have denounced them entirely. Some of the ayahs quoted on this thread from the Holy Quran are only fragments in order to mislead. Others are purposefully altered, mistranslated or are taken out of context. One only has to read a few verses before or after to see the truth of their meaning.

Please take great care if you are tempted to quote from hate sites or believe the lies here. It is not difficult at all to verify Quranic verses from any of the popular free online translations and then you can see for yourself just how far evil people will go to spread deceit and hatred. Millions of dollars are spent fabricating and propagating these lies; do not be a victim of them and beware you do not spread them. No temporary worldly reward is worth degrading oneself by becoming a liar and it is possible that you may reserve your place in the Hellfire from such foolish and pointless behaviour.

Whatever evil forces are motivating people here to spread lies and hatred and whatever worldly gains they have been promised they should think rationally about what they do; if they are Satanists, can they believe that their master of lies and deceit is trustworthy? Do they think he even has any power to save them from death or the Hellfire?

If they do not believe in any such creature then why would they march to their own doom or global hardships that a third world war will certainly bring? Do they think their masters will save them with underground bunkers or portals to other dimensions!?! They are worms; collaborators and they will be despised by everyone. Their masters will destroy them as soon as their purpose is achieved - that is why goodness always prevails over evil; because evil is untrustworthy and it competes with, and destroys itself - we can see this pattered throughout history. Every evil empire falls; they destroy themselves because they have no principles.

Are these poor souls so inept that they cannot earn an honest living and have to resort to such grave errors?
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 10:14 am
Come on Pam, address the questions I asked you about your religious bigotry attacks on me.
How long do you think you can hide behind that little cliche of 'lie, deny, insult'. LOL Any idiot can use that whenever they want to make themselves right and another person wrong. It 'proves' their right lol!

But on closer inspection Pam you haven't even used the original cliche, you've altered it to suit your own needs. Why am I not surprised. You can't even do that right.
 

pam w. (191)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 12:56 pm
Kenneth...literally ALL you do is parrot insults. You've proven your TROLLHOOD long ago...and it should be obvious that I'm ignoring you because you're (a) not worth my time and (b) not a serious poster in the sense of actually wanting to share something of value.

Your constant insults and meaningless drivel are the only thing you ever bring to the board. Don't address me again--I won't respond to you...haven't done it in months, really.

You're a one-note troll...it's obvious. Now you can insult me to your little heart's content....but it won't do a bit of good...nor will it impress anyone other than yourself and the other ''defenders of Islam."
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 1:14 pm
Once in awhile, Abu, both the secular laws of a country and the laws of a religion are what's to blame for behavior - when people actually follow bad laws (since not all laws are ethically good). I'm unfond of quite a few of the bad laws here in the U.S. and just as unfond of the bad laws existing in various religious canons. If my government or my god (through its prophets) tells me I'm required to do a certain thing or that a certain thing's good when it isn't, then they're just as much to blame if I do the bad thing based on their laws/permission.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 2:56 pm
It appears that some here would apply the same flawed logic that would mean the secular laws of a country are the reason that a small proportion of its subjects are criminals. This is an absurd notion and so is blaming Islam when someone who may be from a country largely populated by Muslims, commits some abhorrent act. No religion has ever been responsible for evil; even the notion that religion causes wars is absurd; empire building and tyranny have been responsible for war but evil people attempt to shift the blame from themselves - I never met anyone who actually wanted a war - only pure psychopaths start wars. It is categorically forbidden in Islam to aggress (for proof see Al-Baqarah 2:190-194).

The religion of Islam is not responsible for these churches getting burned or any other evil for that matter. Humans have limited freewill; this means that if they lack goodness, their actions may sometimes be evil. The religion or philosophy they claim to belong to is irrelevant. Can you blame Christianity when a westerner transgresses? Or the ideology of atheism when an atheist is a perpetrator of evil? It is ludicrous - those who engage in this weak conjecture and pitifully foolish generalisations are clutching at straws to malign Islam for evil purposes.

I have proven earlier on this thread, with referenced ayahs from the Noble Quran, that all adherents of the Great Faiths are united by the pure truth of Islam. We share nearly all of the same prophets (peace be upon them all) and our teachings all affirm the most important Truth that there are no gods except The One Almighty God (Jalla Jalaluhu). As if that wasn't already enough to make loving siblings out of all the believers, there are countless references to the same eternal truths and even some shared recounting and clarifications of the same events from the earlier versions of God's religion. If an individual chooses not to abide by these Divine Truths, they have left the Path of Islam - of all Great Faiths and only that particular individual can be held accountable for their sins. The foolishness of generalising and racist/bigoted mentalities is the sort of remedial instruction they teach at primary schools! (Btw, Islam is also an Abrahamic faith)

There have been so many lies on the corporate mass media and internet news sites like this one it is now folly to believe any of their propaganda. There have been countless 'mistakes' (read: lies) that have been admitted by the mass media and almost everyone knows the World Trade Centre attacks were not what we were told they were. In any case, whether it is evil agents burning churches or mercenaries (paid for to help foment propaganda) and even if it really is a small group of psychotic Indonesians, Islam is not to blame here and neither are the Indonesian people at large. We Muslims are instructed by the Holy Quran to treat all others kindly - just as we would our own elderly parents (including atheists).

Proselytising is forbidden so there is no question of forcing anyone to accept Islam - this is strictly and categorically forbidden (for proof please see the Quran; Al-Baqarah 2:256, An-Nisaa' 4:115, Al-Ma'idah 5:92, Yunus 10:99, Hud 11:28 and Al-Kahf 18: 29). Even so, Islam is still growing fast and welcomes the greatest number of converts - more than any other religion at this time.

A church where The One God (May He be glorified and exalted) is worshiped is also sacred to Muslims. You can see here in this wonderfully heart-warming video taken inside a Christian church where Muslims and Christians are heeding the Adhan or 'Call to Prayer';

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QOKG_JZ6fA

We can choose to cherish our differences or we can succumb to childish fears and prejudicial and bigoted hatred. God willing, we will all learn to accept one another in as civilised and mature manner as all of the believers in this video. I believe this is the case for all but a tiny yet very busy vocal minority. The Pentagon paid several million dollars on software (from Ntrepid; an arms dealer) to facilitate simultaneous running of multiple fake personalities for internet communities to further their agendas (mushroom management - keep us in the dark and feed us manure!).

No one in their right mind would spend their days for year after year inventing lies and spreading them in the hope that some gullible fools with join their unholy crusade against all that is good, even if they were paid fortunes to do so. One cannot achieve happiness or success while knowingly committing evil. These wretched souls breed division and hatred only in themselves and their kind and eventually they doom themselves to unimaginable misery. The chaos they foment will only bring the pious ever closer to Allah (Azza wa Jall).

From the Holy Quran;

Warn mankind of the Day when the punishment will reach them. Those who did wrong will say: "Our Lord, reprieve us for a short time. We will respond to Your call and follow the Messengers." [But it will be said] "But did you not swear to Me before that you would never meet your downfall, even though you inhabited the houses of those who had wronged themselves, and it was made clear to you how We had dealt with them, and We gave you many examples?" (Surah Ibrahim, 44-45)

Know that the life of this world is merely a game and a diversion, and ostentation and a cause of boasting among yourselves, and trying to outdo one another in wealth and children: like the plant-growth after rain, which delights the cultivators, but then it withers and you see it turning yellow, and then it becomes broken stubble. In the Hereafter, there is terrible punishment but also forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure. The life of this world is nothing but the enjoyment of delusion. (Surat al-Hadid, 20)

I pray that The One Almighty God (subhanahu wa ta'ala) blesses all those true adherents from all His Great Faiths and unite us in peace and harmony, ameen. My love and prayers to my Christian, Jewish, Sabaean and all true monotheist cousins; may you all succeed in realising closeness to Our Creator (Mighty and Majestic) with comfort and ease inshallah, ameen.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 3:01 pm
Sorry there seems to be a problem with my posts not appearing and then appearing after I have reposted them. I even checked them from another computer from another address hours after originally posting before I reposted them. I don't understand at all! My apologies to all.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 7:55 pm
Nice try Pam W., you can't stand being targeted like you target other people, you are simply a religious bigot who's accused me of being some 'warrior for Christ' (which I'm not) and an Amish (which I'm not) while you attack (surprise surprise) a billion other human beings. It's a fact you're a religious bigot. You attack and vilify a billion other human beings but cry about 'insults' to yourself and a few others on these threads. ROTFLMAO!
You rag at Mary P. to 'address questions' but you don't address questions to yourself. I knew you had no guts when the tables are turned.

When faced with the truth about herself Pam W. 1. denies (in this case by 'ignoring') 2. lies 3. insults others by calling them a troll lol! There---your pet little putdown that you use on others now used on yourself.

It doesn't matter to me whether you respond or not. Got nothing to do with it. I don't like self-righteous religious bigots like yourself.and the rest of your attack dog clique, period.

I'm still waiting for Rob and Jay for proof of their attack on Mary P. of being a 'paid Islamist propagandist'. More no response. Come on, address the question, answer the question!

Chaos merchants.














 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 2:36 am
Thank you for your input dear Antonia. If there is some commandment of Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) that you find unethical I suggest that your source of Islam is not genuine. There are many falsehoods banded about the internet regarding what some people would like you to believe is Islam but it is very simple; there is only one Holy Quran and it is intact still and readily available for free, thanks to God.

All secular, moral and religious commandments are about enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil. Burning churches is clearly evil and has no place in any Great Faith. Muslims were seen protecting churches from agent-provocateurs in Egypt; they surrounded them during the services so that no harm could come to the Christian worshipers, alhamdulillah. I also saw Christians protecting Muslims while they prayed outside in Tahrir Square (protecting them from the government thugs), may God bless those dear Christians and reward them generously inshallah. These are the examples we must follow for a peaceful world and tranquil soul.

Unity is better than division; perhaps some people here would follow their lead and try to promote love instead of hatred. If you can find where Islam commands Muslims to attack people because of their different faith or destroy places where God is worshiped then please state the chapter and verse. I am quite sure you will not find it. The only time Islam refers to force is only in defence against particular individuals who have committed very serious transgressions (murder and driven the Muslims from their homes, broken treaties twice) until there is no choice but to defend against just those particular unbelievers specifically. This is absolutely clear by reading five verses before and five verses after. It is undeniable; the proof is there in writing in every copy of the Holy Quran.

Some humans need little encouragement to perform evil actions; one cannot blame anything else other than those individuals responsible for planning and paying their wages for this abhorrent act and those who carried it out. No religion can be blamed; even the 'Church of Satan' (yes there really is such a thing!) is not responsible for the transgressions of its followers. If this satanic ideology actually incited crime directly, it would be declared an illegal movement and banned; but it is still legal.

At the Nuremburg trials, the excuse of 'just following orders' was not considered a defence for committing atrocities. This is absolutely as it should have been. But this is not even relevant to the situation here because the Holy Quran encourages goodness and forbids evil without exceptions and whoever is burning churches is doing this without any excuses at all - no matter how tenuous or lame.

Islam is legal in every country in the world; it is therefore not considered by any authority to be to blame for any crimes that may be committed by errant people even if they themselves claim to be Muslims. 'Muslim' literally means 'one who submits' [to The One God] and that means to follow God's commandments which are clearly defined in the Generous Quran. If there was anything within the Holy Quran that was in conflict with common law I am sure the evil megalomaniacs who want to tyrannise the entire world under 'one world governance' would have found it by now and declared Islam illegal. Instead, in order to aggress and invade another country, they have to lie about WMD's, huge fictitious terrorist complexes in caves in 'Tora Bora' and pay mercenaries to start trouble in the country they plan to invade and then call it an oppressive regime and 'free' the 'poor oppressed Muslims' by dropping bombs on their houses and murdering their families. It would not surprise me at all to learn these churches are being destroyed by the secret orders of this same oligarchy. They have had 1400 years to search for a reason to ban Islam; perhaps it is time to give up and accept that Islam is a perfectly legitimate path to God (Mighty and Majestic).

I have some sadness and compassion for the Islam haters and I can understand some of the less sharp-witted people becoming excited by the lies I have seen here on Care2; I have been duped myself by media lies in the past and I am not ashamed to say it. There are such a lot of lies that finding the truth is now like 'finding a needle in a haystack'. If even one of the awful things that some people here say about Islam were proved true I would renounce my faith entirely. A religion has to be perfect all the way otherwise it is polytheism - if we choose which commandments to accept and which to drop solely by our own knowledge, this is polytheism because it is like saying that one knows better than God. To consider oneself either equal partners or better than God is among the worst sins. We must never belittle God or associate any partners to Him (God forbid!). This is why we should reject a religion altogether if it has even minor flaws and keep searching for the Truth.

Thankfully, it is only a very few individuals that have been duped by lies and propaganda to such an extent that they feel there is cause to hate this Great Faith. If such individuals took the time to find the truth about Islam and if their hearts were open and free of any worldly agendas, they would either convert to Islam or they would be glad that others were converting. When those around me, here in the UK discovered my love of Islam they were only curious and after I showed them proof of the love and mercy of the beautiful religion they are horrified and disgusted with the mass media demonization of Muslims. Thanks to God, my conversion to Islam has been treated with respect and politeness alhamdulillah. I have had just two bizarre comments in twenty years, one relating to terrorism and another to the treatment of women but it only takes a second to quote what the Noble Quran has to say on such matters for those who had been conditioned by propaganda to see beyond it and embrace the truth (for those with normal clear vision). Those who cannot be convinced are like those who George Harrison described;

"As long as you hate, there will be people to hate"

Thankfully I have never met any 'real people' (as opposed to internet personas) that have such a corrupted outlook as I see here. I steer clear of websites that are only dedicated to hatred; there is no dissuading a person who wants to hate from hating; reason and proof mean little to them. But these lost souls are so rare I have never met such a person but I know there has been racism in the past and that is an equally flawed mentality that is cultivated in much the same way as religious bigotry; with lies and hatred.

I am sure all the genuine people here will forgive me for wondering if some of this Pentagon software for creating fake ID's and spreading propaganda may have found its way to Care2. If one only witnesses the Care2 environment one could be forgiven for believing there was significant animosity towards Islam here but it is not so in my experience of reality. If I wanted, I could fabricate ten different identities and fill these pages with pro-Islam comments but I have better things to do and Islam is not in need of my protection! We are in dire need of Her protection though! She is more than capable of looking after Herself and me and my two billion Muslim siblings as well!

A Muslim who follows Islam to the letter is a wonderful, kind and just person. They would even make sure that they conducted business fairly and would not try to profit more than they deserve. My Muslim friends are the most beautiful people I have ever known masha'Allah! I never imagined I would be so loved and welcomed by people from entirely different cultures and backgrounds, even though I am from a country that is participating in the aggressive unjust and illegal wars. They do not generalise about me; I am a brother to them because of my faith, subhanallah! I cannot express my gratitude enough to God for the gift of my new family of Muslims. And to this enormous family of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabaeans and all those who lovingly submit to The One God, I say 'as salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuh!* May Allah (Jall Jalaluhu) bless you all and protect you always inshallah ameen.
*"Peace be unto you and the mercy of Allah and His blessings"
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 2:53 am
LOL! Good one, Kenneth! Hatefilled Bigots hate it when the tables are turned on them!

If sincere people are keen on knowing the Truth for the sake of educating themselves then one can give them answers; but when every answer is referred to as 'taqiyya' and we are further insulted and demonised then they(bigots) are not worth my precious time! Btw i have answered their ridiculous challenges on many other threads for years now; but these haters are like a broken record! LOL!! Perfect exasmple is Pam with her 'Deny,insult, blame'!
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Friday June 29, 2012, 4:56 am
Well, Mary P, Pam W is right. You and Abu Sajjad, your replacement, never can prove the hate from islam's scriptures wrong and you refuse to renounce the hateful verses, so you both just call names and play the 'oh poor muslim' victims you are so good at. You are the ones defending an ideology of hate, oppression, violence and death.

If Kenneth did any actual thinking he'd notice that after all your protests, and lack of proofs, you and Abu are the haters here. He'd actually notice that you refuse to reject the commands of islam to kill people.

Mary P refuses to renounce islam's commands to kill those who criticize or leave it and gay people. She therefore is saying she believes in that. Are you going to defend that kind of hatred and violence Kenneth. You're so contrary, you will.

Abu Sajjad, we'll ask you the same question since your glorious islam is so splendid and loving (at least to muslims as your god says he doesn't love non-Muslims):

Abu do you renounce Mohammed's commands to kill those who criticize or leave islam and gay people? A simple question that should be a quick and easy answer for you. Let's hear it. If you do you'll be the only muslim on Care2 who has ever renounced these evil hateful commands.

We're waiting. But expect nothing more than more denial and victim crap.

And all of you quit with the tiresome 'you hate all muslims' BS. No one has said anything of the sort. We feel great sympathy for most muslims and wish they could hear the truth and leave it without fear of violence and death. So many of them flee to the West hoping to be free of islamic oppression and still must fear people like you once they are here.

It's the hate preached by islam we oppose, which you never can repudiate except with the propaganda you've been brainwashed with but which contradicts what your prophet actually taught.

You two obviously have never read the qur'an and hadith in a language you can understand, otherwise you would be sickened by the mass murders, banditry, rapes and sex slaves and pedophilia of Mohammed, a distinctly ungodly man. If you'd quit just accepting what you're told you'd find out the qur'an has been changed and is missing much (read Bukhari vol. 6 book 61 for how the qur'an was changed, rewritten and much was lost - it's all there) and Allah is NOT the god of the Jews but is the name of the pagan Arab chief moon god - your crescent moon and star are right from the pagan religion and represent the moon god and his wife. Haven't you ever thought about that? Mohammed never knew the name of the Jewish god because they never utter it. Isn't it odd that his god didn't know it?

Much of the most familiar things in islam, the hajj, the Kabaa and the black rock worshipped by the pagans, the lunar month of fasting - are all right out of the pagan religion. Mohammed made a deal when he moved to Medina with the pagan leaders to keep the name Allah and the familiar rituals in exchange for power and wealth. He even said it was good to pray for intercession from Allah, the moon god's, 3 goddess daughters - the famous 'Satanic Verses', which you'll note, your Allah never denied.

Do you know of the Riddah Wars? That's when after Mohammed died many renounced islam thinking it was safe for them to abandon what they were forced into, but Mohammed's warrior followers (when not killing each other) forced them to stay or be killed before they started spreading islam with the sword all along the area. 80 million Indians were slaughtered when islam invaded and conquered, killing those who refused to convert and destroying their temples. 100,000 Persians were murdered for refusing to convert or pay the onerous jizya. Open your eyes!
 

Carola May (20)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:24 am
Mary P and Abu Sajjad (who sounds very much like Mary P oddly enough - could you both be the same person?) here's a simple thing you can do to clear up all the, what you claim are, lies and make yourselves some money:

Ex-Muslim Dr. Ali Sina's ongoing challenge to Muslims can be found over at www.Faith Freedom.org:
THE CHALLENGE
'If you do not like this site (www.faithfreedom.org) and want me to remove it, instead of acting as a bully or as a victim, disprove my charges against Muhammad logically. Not only will I remove the site, I will publicly announce that Islam is a true religion.

I will also pay $50,000 U.S. dollars to anyone who can disprove any of the dozen of the accusations that I have made against Muhammad. I accuse Muhammad of being:
a narcissist
a misogynist
a rapist
a pedophile
a lecher
a torturer
a mass murderer
a cult leader
an assassin
a terrorist
a madman
a looter
...You simply can’t disprove them because they are reported in Islamic sources and as such they are as good as confession...'
http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-challenge/

Here's your chance to prove with Islamic scriptures, the Qur'an and ahadith that Mohammed was none of these things we've all been saying about him (quoting from those very scriptures). It's easy. Don't you think it is odd that this challenge has been out there for quite some time and no Muslim scholar has yet been able to claim it?

Join the 6million Muslims who are braving death to leave Islam every year in Africa alone (according to Al Jazeera TV in an interview with a Muslim sheikh, who admits this and, of course, wants them all killed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo&feature=colike and 75% of all US converts to Islam leave it within just a few years when they find out what it really teaches according to Muslim authority Professor Ilyas Ba Unas: http://youtu.be/v8EC8-aVlrE)
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:57 am
Abu, the fact that Mohammedanism's legal to practice doesn't make all its strictures moral (just as not all secular 'legal' laws are or have been moral - in my own country perhaps one of the most famous areas of immoral laws had to do with legal enslavement of other human beings - absolutely legal at the time, but absolutely immoral no matter what the time.)

And morality/ethics is something which different people will see differently. Just as one example, I'll not accept any code as ethical which doesn't acknowledge the same legal and societal rights for women as for men. None of the Abrahamic faiths treat women as being of equal status to men, legally and societally, and men are given a status above women in all those holy books. Some've no problem with that and believe it's acceptable since some god said it's so and if some god says it's so then women must be of intrinsically less ability, intelligence, etc. in various ways. Many of us, however, do have a problem with that concept and find it immoral. Just one example - that I've no expectation you, as a Mohammedan perfectionist, would agree with as being immoral.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 8:32 am
Carola, "Mary P and Abu Sajjad (who sounds very much like Mary P oddly enough - could you both be the same person?)"

Really!!! Carola, are you sure Kenneth or any other who doesnt hate muslim/islam like you do, isnt me, as well? You haters are truly pathetic! Get a life! When you go to sleep at night make sure there isnt a muslim hiding under your bed!!! LOL!!!
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 10:45 am
Carola, We true believers of islam know the absolute truth of our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (P.b.u.h.); about the absolute truth of the virgin Mary (P.b.u.h); about the absolute Truth about Jesus (P.b.u.h.) why bother to disprove anything hate mongers or ignorants say! Their filthy views by no means make it the truth! Only filty minds will believe such filth!
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:04 am
Carola wrote down what hatemongers had to say about our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (P.b.u.h); I now write down what Non Muslim Personalities had to say about our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh).

In the quotations below, Western writers have used the word Muhammadanism for Islam. The word Muhammadanism connotes worship of Muhammad, an absolutely unworthy statement for any learned man to use. Prophet Muhammad's mission was to propagate the worship of the One and Only God (in Arabic Allah), the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. His mission was essentially the same as that of earlier Prophets of God. In the historical context, many such terminologies about Muhammad, Islam, and Muslims were borrowed from earlier European writings of the Eleventh to the Nineteenth century, a time when ignorance and prejudice prevailed. The quotations below attest to the facts.



Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."




A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.



De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.



Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.



Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."
“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”




Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."




Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."



Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"




Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.



Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”




Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.



Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'

Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.



Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values'

It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration.



Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs'

Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world.



Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an

Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.



W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.



D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia'

Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle.



Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'

He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.




James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."

“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”




Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.



K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.



In the quotations below, Western writers have used the word Muhammadanism for Islam. The word Muhammadanism connotes worship of Muhammad, an absolutely unworthy statement for any learned man to use. Prophet Muhammad's mission was to propagate the worship of the One and Only God (in Arabic Allah), the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. His mission was essentially the same as that of earlier Prophets of God. In the historical context, many such terminologies about Muhammad, Islam, and Muslims were borrowed from earlier European writings of the Eleventh to the Nineteenth century, a time when ignorance and prejudice prevailed. The quotations below attest to the facts.



Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."




A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.



De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.



Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.



Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."
“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”




Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."




Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."



Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"




Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.



Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”




Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.



Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'

Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.



Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values'

It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration.



Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs'

Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world.



Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an

Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.



W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.



D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia'

Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle.



Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'

He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.




James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."

“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”




Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.



K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 12:12 pm
Prophet Muhammad - The Most Influential Man in History
from the book by Michael Hart

The following is from Michael Hart's book and lists Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History. A Citadel Press Book, published by Carol Publishing Group
Ranking of the twenty from the list of 100:

Prophet Muhammad
Isaac Newton
Jesus Christ
Buddha
Confucius
St. Paul
Ts'ai Lun
Johann Gutenberg
Christopher Columbus
Albert Einstein
Karl Marx
Louis Pasteur
Galileo Galilei
Aristotle
Lenin
Moses
Charles Darwin
Shih Huang Ti
Augustus Caesar
Mao Tse-tung
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 12:14 pm
MUHAMMAD, No. 1
The 100, a Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History
by Michael H. Hart

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. Of humble origins, Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive. The majority of the persons in this book had the advantage of being born and raised in centers of civilization, highly cultured or politically pivotal nations. Muhammad, however, was born in the year 570, in the city of Mecca, in southern Arabia, at that time a backward area of the world, far from the centers of trade, art, and learning. Orphaned at age six, he was reared in modest surroundings. Islamic tradition tells us that he was illiterate. His economic position improved when, at age twenty-five, he married a wealthy widow. Nevertheless, as he approached forty, there was little outward indication that he was a remarkable person. Most Arabs at that time were pagans, who believed in many gods. There were, however, in Mecca, a small number of Jews and Christians; it was from them no doubt that Muhammad first learned of a single, omnipotent God who ruled the entire universe. When he was forty years old, Muhammad became convinced that this one true God (Allah) was speaking to him, and had chosen him to spread the true faith. For three years, Muhammad preached only to close friends and associates. Then, about 613, he began preaching in public. As he slowly gained converts, the Meccan authorities came to consider him a dangerous nuisance. In 622, fearing for his safety, Muhammad fled to Medina (a city some 200 miles north of Mecca), where he had been offered a position of considerable political power. This flight, called the Hegira, was the turning point of the Prophet's life. In Mecca, he had had few followers. In Medina, he had many more, and he soon acquired an influence that made him a virtual dictator. During the next few years, while Muhammad's following grew rapidly, a series of battles were fought between Medina and Mecca. This was ended in 630 with Muhammad's triumphant return to Mecca as conqueror. The remaining two and one-half years of his life witnessed the rapid conversion of the Arab tribes to the new religion.

When Muhammad died, in 632, he was the effective ruler of all of southern Arabia. The Bedouin tribesmen of Arabia had a reputation as fierce warriors. But their number was small; and plagued by disunity and internecine warfare, they had been no match for the larger armies of the kingdoms in the settled agricultural areas to the north. However, unified by Muhammad for the first time in history, and inspired by their fervent belief in the one true God, these small Arab armies now embarked upon one of the most astonishing series of conquests in human history. To the northeast of Arabia lay the large Neo-Persian Empire of the Sassanids; to the northwest lay the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire, centered in Constantinople. Numerically, the Arabs were no match for their opponents. On the field of battle, though, the inspired Arabs rapidly conquered all of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine. By 642, Egypt had been wrested from the Byzantine Empire, while the Persian armies had been crushed at the key battles of Qadisiya in 637, and Nehavend in 642. But even these enormous conquests, which were made under the leadership of Muhammad's close friends and immediate successors, Ali, Abu Bakr and 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, did not mark the end of the Arab advance. By 711, the Arab armies had swept completely across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean There they turned north and, crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, overwhelmed the Visigothic kingdom in Spain.

For a while, it must have seemed that the Moslems would overwhelm all of Christian Europe. However, in 732, at the famous Battle of Tours, a Moslem army, which had advanced into the center of France, was at last defeated by the Franks. Nevertheless, in a scant century of fighting, these Bedouin tribesmen, inspired by the word of the Prophet, had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the Atlantic Ocean-the largest empire that the world had yet seen. And everywhere that the armies conquered, large-scale conversion to the new faith eventually followed. Now, not all of these conquests proved permanent. The Persians, though they have remained faithful to the religion of the Prophet, have since regained their independence from the Arabs. And in Spain, more than seven centuries of warfare, finally resulted in the Christians reconquering the entire peninsula. However, Mesopotamia and Egypt, the two cradles of ancient civilization, have remained Moslem, as has the entire coast of North Africa. The new religion, of course, continued to spread, in the intervening centuries, far beyond the borders of the original Moslem conquests. Currently it has tens of millions of adherents in Africa and Central Asia and even more in Pakistan and northern India, and in Indonesia. In Indonesia, the new faith has been a unifying factor. In the Indian subcontinent, however, the conflict between Moslems and Hindus is still a major obstacle to unity.

How, then, is one to assess the overall impact of Muhammad on human history? Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book. Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Moslems in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament. Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran, a collection of certain of Muhammad's insights that he believed had been directly revealed to him by Allah. Most of these utterances were copied more or less faithfully during Muhammad's lifetime and were collected together in authoritative form not long after his death. The Koran therefore, closely represents Muhammad's ideas and teachings and to a considerable extent his exact words. No such detailed compilation of the teachings of Christ has survived. Since the Koran is at least as important to Moslems as the Bible is to Christians, the influence of Muhammad through the medium of the Koran has been enormous. It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity.

On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus. Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. Of many important historical events, one might say that they were inevitable and would have occurred even without the particular political leader who guided them. For example, the South American colonies would probably have won their independence from Spain even if Simon Bolivar had never lived. But this cannot be said of the Arab conquests. Nothing similar had occurred before Muhammad, and there is no reason to believe that the conquests would have been achieved without him. The only comparable conquests in human history are those of the Mongols in the thirteenth century, which were primarily due to the influence of Genghis Khan. These conquests, however, though more extensive than those of the Arabs, did not prove permanent, and today the only areas occupied by the Mongols are those that they held prior to the time of Genghis Khan. It is far different with the conquests of the Arabs. From Iraq to Morocco, there extends a whole chain of Moslem nations united not merely by their faith in Islam, but also by their Arabic language, history, and culture.

The centrality of the Koran in the Moslem religion and the fact that it is written in Arabic have probably prevented the Arab language from breaking up into mutually unintelligible dialects, which might otherwise have occurred in the intervening thirteen centuries. Differences and divisions between these Arab states exist, of course, and they are considerable, but the partial disunity should not blind us to the important elements of unity that have continued to exist. For instance, neither Iran nor Indonesia, both oil-producing states and both Islamic in religion joined in the oil embargo of the winter of 1973-74. It is no coincidence that all of the Arab states, and only the Arab states, participated in the embargo. We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 1:05 pm
Carola, Rob and Jay, Pam and others like them; Need I say more!!! The above non muslim personalities have said it all like it Really is, about Islam and its Beloved Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.).

Take Care. Peace to you all.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 1:29 pm
ROB AND JAY----Now answer the damn question where you accused Mary P. of being a 'paid Islamist propagandist' AS TO WHAT PROOF YOU HAVE.

You actually have the stinking nerve to make an accusation like that then be a stinking coward in not proving it but going on and on in more attacks on Mary P. Put your money where mouth is! Now's your chance like your fellow attack dog Carola May presses others with!

Blowhard, arrogant, self-important, authoritative know-it-alls. Up yours.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 1:50 pm
Unless negative statements about Mohammedism from famous people are considered equally valid, I'm afraid positive statements from the famous aren't either. It matters not what famous or well-respected people think about someone's religion or religious figure (fame and even talent in a given area doesn't make anyone an authority on everything and doesn't make their judgment beyond question). For religion it matters what that religion's holy books say. And for religious figures it matters what they say and do and believe and how they live. Looking at the thing itself's always of far more value than short quotes about what people think about the thing.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 3:48 pm
Antonia, "For religion it matters what that religion's holy books say "

Some of the verses of the Holy Quran are decisive, clear to understand - they are the basis of the Book - and others are allegorical. Those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part that is allegorical, Seeking to Mislead, and Seeking to give it (THEIR OWN) Interpretation.

It is Important to note that with regard to the translations of the Quran on which most of the misconceptions and allegations against Islam have been based, it must be made clear that no synod of learned men were ever commissioned to produce an authentic translation of the Quran from the original Arabic into English or any other language. The existent translations are the result of the efforts of individual translators from time to time, each of whom has put his own meaning to the words, and given interpretation to the context according to his own ideas. It must also be realized that apart from the fact that the Quran is written in several dialects the Arabic language itself is such that the slightest change of vowel points and accent entirely alters the meaning and significance of a sentence, and it is painful to see the Distortations and MISREPRESENTATIONS, some due to Honest Mistakes, owing to lack of familiarity with idiomatic expressions of the language, and Otheres due to Prejudice and Venom against the Muslims and ISLAM.

It is a recognised fact of history that in the Dark Ages, TRUTH was constantly PERVERTED for the SAKE of POLITICAL ENDS. To this day, wherever scientific thought has not infused a new soul, wherever true culture has not gained a foothold, the old spirit of exclusiveness and intolerance, the old ecclesiastic HATRED of ISLAM, displays itself in WRITINGS, in NEWSPAPER ATTACKS, in private conversations and in public speeches.


Antonia, " And for religious figures it matters what they say and do and believe and how they live."

If you really seek the Truth about the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) read the Book "Muhammad" by Martin Lings to read about what he said, did, believed in and how he lived.


 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:32 pm
Dear Antonia, if you are speaking of the religion of Islam, perhaps you can bring real referenced evidence of what you deem immoral from the Holy Quran since the principles of our religion are contained within it and none of them are in any definition 'immoral'.

My point was that since Islam is not guilty of instigating crimes (under any law), neither should it be castigated for any crimes.

People do have different perceptions of right and wrong but the facts about morality are with God and within the hearts of His purified representatives (peace be upon them all); science cannot quantify nor describe principles nor can it measure a sample of good or evil. But this does not mean it is fine to be depraved as long as popular culture decrees it ok; just as in the case of slavery that you mentioned. Thousands of people accepted it but it is still wrong and it always will be; principles don't change with time or popular trends or opinions.

Adultery is legal here even though it is immoral and highly destructive for society and the victims involved especially the children who are torn apart by their parents divorce. But burning churches is just altogether plain bad; no one can argue otherwise and the individuals alone must be stopped and punished. My point was that Islam is not to blame since it teaches kindness and respect to all and it teaches that Christianity was a bona fide path and its sincere adherents will be rewarded. No Muslim has the authority or need or motivation to burn a church. Even if a person claiming to be a Muslim burnt a church one cannot hold Islam accountable or any other innocent Muslims for that matter.

You have been misinformed about the status of women in Islam; they are held in equal regard to men. There has been much nonsense spoken about Islam and women choosing to practice such fine hijab (modesty) has been twisted by the media to try and malign this beautiful quality that our sisters choose to enjoin.

Islam seeks to protect the rights of women and to protect them from being exploited and objectified like they are here in the west. So many advertisements have to have a semi-naked woman draped over the product being sold. So many wives are beaten here by their drunken husbands. Islam forbids all these evils. Islam teaches men and women their roles as man and wife and they are in perfect harmony without favouritism. No one can say men and women are the same; Islam recognises these differences and recommends the perfect family unit. You wouldn't think it necessary but the west seems to have forgotten these basic truths. This may be why most converts to Islam are currently women.

You have even been misinformed of the name of Islam; we have many prophets (peace be upon them all); around 124,000! Please do not insult the religion of Islam and belittle it to following just one of them. Many Biblical prophets (Old and New Testament), including of course Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon them) were very important prophets as well. But we only worship the One God (Azza wa Jall). That is what 'Allah' literally means; 'The [One] God'. We do not associate any partners with God - this is a huge sin! There is no god but The One God; this is crucial in Islam.

So the name is 'Islam'; this is how everyone knows our religion. We are 'Muslims' if we submit to The One God. What have you got against calling our religion by its real name? Have you so little courtesy?
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:46 pm

I would love to answer questions relating to Islam but I got to know how this works; we prove for example, that there is no earthly punishment for apostasy using referenced verses from the Holy Quran and then on the very next anti-Islam thread certain individuals continue with that same lie regardless of proof to the contrary which they have just witnessed. Clearly no amount of proof will prevent them from continuing with these lies. The genuine readers here would do well to question why this is.

I will answer one of the common 'misconceptions' for those who missed it the last half a dozen times; here are the verses that deal with leaving Islam:

"And whoso opposeth the Messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell—a hapless journey's end!" (An-Nisaa' 4:115)

"Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him]." (Al-Ma'idah 5:92).

The first verse speaks for itself; "We shall leave him in the path he has chosen..." even if his own path leads him to the Hellfire. In this last verse, the word 'only' is significant; there is no duty except a clear delivery of the message. So where is the death sentence that you say Islam prescribes?

If anyone can find me proof from the Holy Quran; which is the final word on everything that is Islam, that says there is a death sentence for leaving Islam they better give me the chapter and verse! We all know it doesn't exist and we all know that these two verses (and there are many similar ayahs) are indeed from the Holy Quran.

One would expect that all those that now know the truth would not repeat this lie about leaving Islam but it is not the case; some have seen this many times already. So there is no earthly punishment for leaving Islam and those who say there is are either misguided or are mischief makers.

If those who witnessed this brief lesson would then not mention the same lies on the next thread I would consider the time this took worthwhile but I see the same profiles spouting the same lies over and over in spite of them being exposed so it is fairly obvious what is going on.

It is rather time consuming and there are an infinite number of better things I could be doing. It is easy to bombard us with lies about Islam and the number of lies is only limited by their imagination. But it takes time to prove beyond any doubt that they are lies with referenced verses from the Glorious Quran and time on Earth is short. Apart from our own certain demise, The Day of Judgement could be anytime soon; no one but Allah (Azza wa Jall) knows when. I much prefer to bathe in love of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) and search for new narrations of his incomparable wisdom and compassion. I love to recite the Holy Quran and savour every word and learn more of this incredibly poetic language. I love to hear what our Imams (alayhimus salaam) have said and in particular their purports and background knowledge of certain ayahs of the Noble Quran. This is pure bliss for me; I am so in love! You will forgive me if I cannot spend my time wrestling with people who cannot, or rather 'will not' learn.

For the sincere seekers, the best thing for people to do is read the Holy Quran directly and then there are no deliberate deceptions to be misled by. Alternatively, check out the free online films such as 'The Caravan of Pride' or The Mukhtar Narrative for the best films ever in my opinion; you will not be disappointed, God willing.

We have been warned about certain types of individuals so instead of addressing every lie they cast, since now I have already proven that some here who hate Islam are either in error or are deliberately misguiding, I will let Islam explain and leave them to their misery;

From the Generous Quran (Al-Baqara 2:6-18);

Bismillah hir Rahman nir Rahim (In the name of Allah, the most compassionate, the Merciful)

As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not have faith.
Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and a covering has fallen over their eyes. They deserve severe chastisement.
There are some who say: "We believe in Allah and in the Last Day," while in fact they have no faith.
They seek to deceive Allah and those who have faith, yet they deceive no one but themselves, but they are not aware.
There is a disease in their hearts and Allah has intensified this disease. A painful chastisement awaits them for their lying.
When they are told, ‘Do not cause corruption on the earth,’ they say, ‘We are only reformers!’
Look! They are themselves the agents of corruption, but they are not aware.
Whenever they are told: "Believe as others believe," they answer: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Indeed it is they who are the fools, but they are not aware of it.
When they meet the faithful, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their devils, they say: "We are with you; we were only deriding [them]."
It is Allah who derides them * and leaves them bewildered in their rebellion. (*by letting them imagine that they are mocking the faithful)
These are the ones who have purchased error in exchange for guidance. This bargain has brought them no profit and certainly they are not on the Right Way.
They are like him who lit a torch, and when it lit up all around him, Allah took away the light (of their perception) and left them in utter darkness where they can see nothing.
They are deaf, they are dumb, they are blind; they will never return (to the Right Way).
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 6:34 pm
From what I've read, the prescribing of death for apostasy comes from various hadiths, not the Koran. So anyone not accepting those hadiths as true wouldn't have to accept that belief. If I'm correct, of course, since I'm just remembering something I once read and haven't looked it up.

And Abu, as my previous comment stated, I recognize each religion's many prophets. But each of the Abrahamic religions has a principal one who's the primary bringer of law and interpreter of law. Yours is Mohammed.

And you've asked what I consider immoral in the Koran. While I've no desire to create an encyclopedic list, I consider it immoral that men're allowed multiple wives, but women're disallowed multiple husbands. That men're a degree above women and in charge of them. That in some cases a woman's testimony is worth less than a man's and her inheritance rights halved. That menstruating women are to be avoided as unclean. That slavery's accepted (albeit with regulation) instead of completely condemned. There are many other things I've found immoral in that book.

I've heard the justifications before.

That Mohammedanism made things better than they were before in many cases. True, and in some cases exceptionally true. But immaterial. It matters not how something's compared to another thing when deciding whether it's right or wrong.

That the other Abrahamic faiths tend to be worse in many ways. True, again in some cases exceptionally true. But immaterial. Same rationale.

That women are biologically different than men and aren't as logical, can't think as clearly because of their hormones, and have less ability in some areas. Untrue, of course, since the undoubted biological differences haven't created a mass of women indistinguishable from one another and if each man's to be looked at as an individual person so should each woman (with some men being muddleheaded in the extreme and with some women being much their superiors in intellect and reasoning and leadership ability).

That it's for the benefit of women to not acknowledge full equal rights because they need protecting and shouldn't have to also take the responsibilities that come with equal rights. That they've men to look after them so they don't need as much of their own. But I've more than a suspicion that it's each woman who's the right to decide whether she prefers protection or equality (as each man should have the same right), and acceptance of responsibility usually's good for the character.

That it's not wrong to have men over women so long as the control's done kindly and lovingly as it's supposed to be. Untrue. A wrong thing done nicely doesn't make a wrong a right.

That god says things're a certain way and we just have to accept that's the way they should be. Immaterial to non-believers (though obviously of major materiality to believers).

 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 6:46 pm
But as I've already said I've no expectation that any perfectionist believer'll agree that there's any imperfect thing in his own holy scripture. Since that which anyone's a belief he knows absolutely as perfect can't by definition contain impurities. Why I've such distrust of perfectionist belief of all kinds. But it's existing and'll always exist and so long as the rest of us aren't required to bathe in that river it's a right to exist (although I've no specific understanding of every country's laws, here in the U.S. we've accepted every person's right to believe freely and, in most cases, to teach that belief - until bad belief becomes bad action it's protected, at least for now.)
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 9:18 pm

Dear Antonia, although I am not aware of any such hadith regarding apostasy, it is immaterial; the Holy Quran is the final word in Islam and it says categorically there is no earthly punishment. Each hadith is carefully examined through the chain of narrators and graded accordingly for its authenticity but if it contradicts the Holy Quran it is thrown out altogether and its narrator will be considered unreliable.

The Holy Quran was given to the world in book form and memorised by countless Muslims in the time of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) and it is considered by all Muslims to be perfectly whole, intact and infallible.

The Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) was the final prophet and so no one has any authority to alter Islam at least until Judgement Day.

Islam is the completed form of all of the previous religions from God (Azza wa Jall). Some of them are named by the prophet that delivered them and some are named after the place they were delivered from but Islam is the final revelation and is distinct from all previous versions.

In any case, this religion is called Islam and nothing else; I would not give you a name of my choosing - I will call you by whatever you prefer or the name that you parents gave to you. And I ask that you do not rename our faith to something that suits you. The name 'Islam' is given to us by God; the Creator of this religion and the enormous number of Muslims are very happy with this name. So I ask you again to show some respect to your fellow humans and call their religion by its real name please. I don't know why you would wish to call it anything else? Islam is much shorter and more accurate than your long and inaccurate name; we are not worshipers of any of our prophets (peace be upon them) - we only prostrate to Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala).

You asked about Islam allowing multiple wives so here are some thoughts for you to consider which I hope will help you to consider that Islam is a better system than any other. It is easy to equate difference with erroneousness; this is human nature - cognitive dissidence. But if you can manage to see outside the box into another way of thinking I hope you will appreciate what I have done for you here.

The first reason (for all Muslims) that men are allowed up to four wives because that is what Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) permits. God, being the Most Wise, All Knowing and Most Merciful, knows what is best for us as humans, since God is the one who created us. God wants us to live a happy and peaceful life, and so anything that is prohibited or allowed is made so because God knows that it will improve our live and enable us to achieve happiness and fulfilment. But for non-Muslims to see the wisdom requires expansion. Islam is perfect and I can see that faith is not something you can grasp yet. God willing it will come to you the more you explore Islam.

Islam encourages Muslims to find the wisdom behind all of the teachings of Islam. God tells us to ponder upon the ayahs of the Generous Quran for this end. I am no expert; in fact, I am just a convert to Islam with very little experience but for want of a better explanation I will share some of my own thoughts about marriage along with bits and pieces that I have read. The Holy Quran does not go into great depth about all the reasons for the principles it prescribes for us; it is compact and concise and simple. We have scholars, books of ahadith, a Marjaa and the perfect examples of the Masumeen (alayhimus salaam) to guide us as well as our God-given reason.

Islam discourages polygamy because it teaches that a man who is married to more than one woman must achieve a perfect balance between his wives financially and in terms of his time and this is not really possible. The Quran explicitly instructs men that if they doubt they can treat each wife equally, then they are to marry one woman only. The man must provide the same amount of love and time to each of his wives, and the same material lifestyle.

Islam recognizes the reality of the human existence and does not ask us to do something that they are not able to do. This is one of the basic principles of Islam; it is a complete way of life that covers every aspect of it. Islam wants every man to live within its bounds; even those that would not be suited to monogamy. A horrific number of traditional western marriages fail because of affairs and polygamy eradicates the need for this dishonesty and sin. A 'sinner' might continue to commit other sins, thinking that they have nothing to lose. Betrayal is a most painful experience and so Islam lessens this risk.

A woman deserves to be married more than a man and therefore she has a greater opportunity. Generally, a woman who has many opportunities for marriage will not accept to be a second wife, and will wait for a proposal from a man who is not yet married. So the second wife will probably be either divorced or widowed, or having other issues that would make it difficult for her to get married. For her, being a second wife is a great option because she may otherwise have not had the opportunity to get married at all.

During times of great strife, men are killed in battle and women are left without provides or protectors. One woman may not be blessed with sufficient good qualities or good looks in order to attract a husband but it is the duty of Muslims to make sure that she has the right to have a child and be provided for and have some comfort and protection. Many wives are great friends and enjoy their peace and quiet and lesser burdens.

Another situation to consider is a man whose wife becomes seriously ill, to the extent that she is not able to have sexual relations with her husband. It is difficult for a man to continue to live for a long period of time without satisfying his sexual needs and without polygamy, the man will either have to suppress their sexual desire or he might consider having an affair God forbid, or they might consider divorcing their sick wife and get remarried. Polygamy provides an option where the wife can continue to get the love, emotional and physical support of her husband. The husband can continue his loving relationship with his sick wife and provide for her. The second wife may be happy to be married because she may not have had this opportunity otherwise. Maybe some who rather have no husband than half a husband - Islam gives such a woman the right to choose; a western woman has no such choice.

You asked why does Islam treat men and women differently - this is because they are made differently; For example; one man can impregnate more than one woman but if a woman had four husbands she can still only have one child at a time. Then there is the confusion of not knowing who the father would be; obviously there is no problem with this in the way God has arranges Islam - each mother knows who the father is.

Then there is the question of inbreeding; if both sexes can have four spouses there would be an enormous difficulty in ascertaining who is related to who; it is a genealogy nightmare! Endless chains of people could be engaged in a huge marital relationship. For example, if a man marries four women, and each of those women marries four men, there would be 21 people in this family! If those men are also married to four women each, the family gets even bigger. And this marital chain can continue with no end, resulting in a complex situation that would not be manageable. Would all of their children be considered step-brothers and sisters? Would it be appropriate for those children to marry amongst each other? Who would inherit from whom? Clearly the disadvantages of such a system would be immense and would outweigh any possible benefits - it simply cannot work!

Women are gifted with extra magnanimity therefore they can handle being a co-wife and being led by one man much better than four men and one wife - it is likely the husbands would tear each other apart! Similarly, a man's sex drive is often larger than a woman's and she is unlikely to be able to satisfy four husbands. If a man in the west has a larger sex drive than his wife then he might be tempted to deceive his wife and commit adultery which apart from being a grave sin, causes much heartbreak, disease, unwanted children and all manner of other problems. A second wife or more takes away the need for lies and promiscuity and fatherless children and upset etc.

I realise that it is unusual for you dear Antonia and if I am perfectly honest, it is unusual for me too; I cannot even find one wife and the thought of having more than one would be unthinkable but who are we to judge this as being wrong when all participants in such a marriage are consenting adults? No one is forced to marry in Islam and the first wife has to give her husband permission to take a second wife otherwise it cannot happen. Everyone is honest as there is no motivation to deceive and ultimately, it only allows us more freedom and doesn't take anything away in return. One could even say that the western insistence on monogamy is oppressive and the Islamic method gives us more freedom without descending to chaos.

When you consider the complexity of life and the relationships between people, you will find that there are certain cases where polygamy is really the best answer. Nothing in this world seems ideal and everything has advantages and disadvantages. Since Islam is a religion meant for all people, living in all places and at all times, it allows polygamy in order to take those cases into account.

Consider for example a case where a husband and wife get married, and then it becomes apparent that the wife is not able to have children. Some men will want to have children by a natural birth. This is just a basic human desire and instinct. Without polygamy, such a man either has to live the rest of his life having been deprived of this opportunity to be a father, or he would have to divorce his wife and marry another woman who is able to have children. Both are very painful options, especially if he and his wife love each other and do not wish to be apart. If the man takes a second wife with his first wife's permission, they can maintain their loving marriage. The man can enjoy the feeling of having natural biological children. The first wife can also enjoy having children in her life. The second wife can also be happy to be in a loving marital relationship with children of her own.

Polygamy is not always a perfect situation and in fact may be harmful if not practiced in the proper way; but Islam avoids the greater harm of keeping other relationships secret and illegitimate. It protects women by giving them the full rights of a wife instead of being a secret 'mistress', where the woman whom has no rights at all and is kept a 'dirty secret' that no one is allowed to find out about. A second wife becomes an honoured family member with all rights and privileges. Instead of any children being 'illegitimate' and having to possibly resort to the court system to prove who their father is and to get alimony or child support, their rights are also protected by the institution of marriage. No matter how strange it may seem, even the most reviled person must admit that polygamy is preferable to a society where adultery is the rule rather than the exception.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 9:32 pm

I hope that last post illustrates what can be done with a little deeper thought about matters which are unusual to us at first. We ought to allow freedom and differences and accept that others may not always want to make the same choices that we ourselves would make. It is not always wrong just because it is different. The world would be very dull if we were all the same.

I may answer a couple more points later today but as I said previously, I don't have time to address every gripe everyone has about things that they can think deeply about for themselves. Much of the lies on Care2 about Islam are so outrageous, it is rare that I find something that is even the real Islam to discuss; usually it is something just completely false but in this instance, it's true that Islam allows up to four wives if all agree that this is what they want and the husband can meet all their needs fairly and equally. But remember it is only permitted and not forced upon anyone. Can anyone really complain about extra freedom? It is not for everyone but is it anyone's business to interfere?
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 9:38 pm
You've mistaken my meaning, Abu. I've no problem with polygamy. I've also no problem with polyandry. The problem's with allowing one and disallowing the other. I've no belief that salving male ego and pride's worth restricting women while allowing men license.

And such a strange view - to try and avoid fornication with multiple women by legalizing fornication with multiple women. Rather like avoiding murder by allowing each person a right to murder a certain number of people so they'll get it out of their systems in a more minimal way.

But nothing unexpected.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 2:13 am
At least a rational discussion between a couple of people who have reasoning ability. One thing you will never hear on these threads usually controlled by the hate-monger attack dog clique is A SINGLE GOOD THING about Islam or Muslims. That is indicative of a manic obsession to only harm. You will get straw self-protective inanities such as 'We don't hate all Muslims' as a self-protecting generality but they never say WHO are these muslims, where are they, how many are they, or A SINGLE GOOD THING about them..

When asked to say something, anything GOOD about these 'muslims they don't hate' there is only SILENCE.

Indicative of a hate-monger.


 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 7:28 am
As I said dear Tommy- no matter who says what about apostasy, the Holy Quran is the prime authority in Islam; this is unanimously agreed. No one can supplant the authority of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu Alayhi wa alih) - he was the last prophet before the End of Days. And he (saawa) says absolutely clearly that there is no earthly punishment for leaving Islam. This is the commandment of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) and for Muslims, this is what they should be adhering to. If they do not then they are not acting on behalf of Islam; they are acting against it and Islam cannot be blamed for acts which it clearly forbids.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 9:04 am

Dear Antonia. Thank you for clarifying your meaning. I believe I did write something of the reasons why polyandry is utterly impossible to implement. Can you not see the utter chaos it would incite? It is a matter of pure logic and reason - it cannot possibly work - it is absolutely impractical and could never be implemented in a successful society.

It is laudable that you want absolute equality but you may as well state that men should be allowed to give birth. Perhaps you would be right; why shouldn't I be allowed to give birth? It would be fair if men and women were entirely the same but the reality is that we are not. Women carry the children; like it or not, this is what we have to deal with. It is not the fault of Islam. You don't seem to see the biological, psychological and practical reasons why polyandry would be entirely impossible if it were permitted and practiced.

Here are the key points again in no particular order;

Men are not blessed with enough magnanimity to accept sharing a woman.
Jealousy would lead polyandrous husbands to hostilities and perhaps murder each other.
The woman would not, in most cases, be able to satisfy the sexual appetites of several men.
There would be a constant war over who would be the head of the family and plan the daily activities.
No one would know who the father of the child was and that causes all sorts of problems later when that child is selecting a spouse.
If a polyandrous family endures a divorce, who gets custody?
Inbreeding would soon be a likely result of polyandry; if both sexes can have four spouses there would soon be an enormous difficulty in ascertaining who is related to who.
Endless chains of people could be engaged in a huge marital relationship that can continue with no end. Surly venereal diseases would kill millions and cause billions to be sick.
Would it be appropriate for those children to marry amongst each other?
Who would inherit what from whom?

There are many more problems that I haven't yet imagined but I hope you can see that it can never work. I appreciate your concerns that men and women must be treated equally and as much as this is possible, Islam succeeds in this aim but you have to agree that there are certain biological limitations that prevent men and women from being exactly the same.

A clear example is that men cannot lactate. In your perfect world, the man would take it in turns to look after the baby and the mother can go to work every other day. This would be fair, fine and dandy except how can the man compete with giving the child breast milk from his bosom? It is insane to feed a baby powdered rubbish from a bottle when the mother has perfect fresh milk which is filled with love and life force. Babies prefer the nurturing of breastfeeding; many studies agree. It strengthens the body and emotional wellbeing.

A baby needs its mother. It is not genderism, sexist or oppressive; it is just the way things are. Interfering with the natural order will cause unhappiness for all concerned. Men and women are not exactly the same; we must accept this and celebrate our differences and utilise God's blessings in the way that God intended. We are better off utilising our unique strengths to bolster each other's weakness. A couple made of one male and one female are a perfect unit to build a family; combined, their qualities can harmonise in the most beautiful way.

Islam does not allow any fornication; sex is only for those who are married. Within a polygamous marriage, sex is not fornication. The problem with sex is not the sex itself; it is the damage it can do on all sorts of levels when there is promiscuity and disregard for all decency and restraint. Sex within marriage can be a beautiful thing (so I am told!); it is certainly not evil. Islam does not have a negative view of 'nikah'; it means 'marriage' but it also means 'sexual intercourse'. It is a sacred union. This archaic notion that it is something dirty is not present in Islam. But there are boundaries to nikah that we must not cross so that it remains a sacred union.

I did say that adultery is a grave sin and that it is essential we avoid it but surely you can see that polygamy is less damaging than adultery. It is not the aim of Islam to legalise sin; it is about allowing for the needs of people and making the best possible outcome of a difficult and testing life.

So many men in the west admit to having had adulterous affairs; it is an unfortunate reality but it is a reality. I would much prefer that every man was an oak - a pillar of self control and mastery over his ego and his sexual needs. Islam is not as idealistic as me; it deals with the realities of our existence and does not place difficult tests upon all those who are not likely to pass. Islam is a religion of comfort and ease; Muslims do not try and deny pleasures like some Yogis; we are grateful for a sumptuous meal and we love to eat nice food and enjoy life. Those who are married may enjoy their spouses with God's blessing.

Is it not preferable that a husband who is not entirely satiated by his wife can be open about his sexual needs and ask his wife if he could marry another? The alternative for him, if he is not an oak, is to lie, cheat, betray and sin and risk destroying everything by secretly having an affair. This will probably destroy all his family's lives including the children's and he would know that he is a sinner and this might lead him to all manner of other sins. Anyone who has been betrayed knows how difficult it is to learn to trust again; it is destructive to society. No solution is ideal but polygamy is the best of them.

Some religions try to suppress and deny all physical pleasures but as we see in some dreadful instances, this does not always work and then corruption and abuses of unspeakable evil can be the result when this pressure gets too much. Surely it is better that religion is accessible to all and possible to follow in comfort and with ease? Rather than deny impulses, Islam teaches us the balance of enjoying the physical realm without becoming intoxicated by it; it is a moderate and balanced path. The Muslims I am blessed to know are the most relaxed, gentle and loving souls. They are laid back and truly happy, thanks to God. They enjoy the world and all of its pleasures while keeping their focus upon God and the Day of Judgement. There are some things which, in His Mercy, Allah (Azza wa Jall) has forbidden to Muslims but these are not pleasures - they are sugar coated poisons; ask any gambling addict or alcoholic if gambling and alcohol are worthwhile pursuits; they are the experts - they will all tell you that these things have ruined their lives. No good can come of these pursuits, nor any of the other handful of things which Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has warned us against. There are so few of these 'sins' (a sin is anything which isolates us from God) and so many pleasures that are graced upon us that we can enjoy with God's blessing. Clearly God is protecting His devotees by these warnings.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 10:06 am
No, Abu, things such as childbirth and lactation're not germane to the issue, since those are biological impossibilities for men. What's physically impossible's not equivalent to what's possible, but forbidden by religious law.

I'd read your rationale against polyandry - I simply have no agreement with it. Partially because I've a higher opinion of men that you appear to, since I've no belief they're incapable of controlling their instincts. If a man's the ability to not kill, steal, or do any of the other naturally instinctive things that religion also forbids, he's the ability to live without satisfying every lustful thought and feeling he's to encounter in life (just as women're forbidden under your religious law to satisfy every lustful thought they have - and, as a woman, I've personal knowledge that we've the same potential for sexual desire, and many women'd be quite happy to have multiple husbands - and many wouldn't).

And you mention that polygamy in Mohammedism's only allowed when the women consent. Then polyandry'd be the same - by consent of the men. Any man who's incapable of sharing a woman with other men hasn't a need to consent, just as a woman's no need to consent to other wives (though in practice, while some women say they freely consent, others say they've been forced or pressured into accepting other wives in their marriage).

And now that we've DNA testing, the paternity of any child's able to be known with certainty, even if a woman's had multiple sex partners.

They're always ways to handle new manners of doing things and humans've managed to work out the problems that come with new ways throughout history.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 10:44 am
I've just realized the inescapable conclusion of the view that men're not most of them able to control themselves sexually and must be appeased with many wives to stop them from behaving badly. Such men're dangerous since an unwillingness or incapacity to control one's behavior leads to crime and sin. And if we women're so much more able to control ourselves and behave well then we should be in charge of men, in charge of society, and keep those uncontrollable males under a very watchful and stringent eye.

I've a desire, rather, to let those who're best individually qualified to be in authority in society and to provide equal rights for all (while always respecting the free noncoercive choice of individuals). But if men're really can't control themselves, we've no choice other than to restrict them severely. Concentration camps may be in order to protect the women and children. (Or not, preferably).
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 10:52 am
Antonia...you need to remember that Islam was created BY and FOR men....not women....MEN.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 11:15 am
I'm well in agreement, Pam. Most religions were created by and for men in times more un-modern than now. Times when physically-weaker women were more easily controlled by men and when the rule of non-religious law'd be pretty well microscopic. May those times get further and further away from us, never to return.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 11:21 am
Dear Tommy,
The last verse in An-Nisaa (4:89) which you failed to quote properly and added your own incorrect interpretation is typical of deliberate mischief I have come to expect here. If you quote the entire verse and it is translated properly and if you bothered to learn who this verse is referring to when it starts with "They", we would all have seen that the evil people this verse refers to the hypocrites of Makkah who feigned sympathy for the Muslims while remaining in Makkah and continuing to work for the enemies of the Muslims. They were plotting to destroy Islam with war and destruction!! This is why they were dealt with so severely. They were never Muslims in the first place either!! How can you dare to be such a rascal?! In would like to believe that you were just ignorant except that I have seen other posts of yours.

Here is the actual verse;
"They wish that you should disbelieve just as they disbelieved so that you may all be alike. Do not, therefore, take from them allies until they emigrate in the way of Allah, but if they turn their backs (on emigration), seize them and slay them wherever you come upon them. Take none of them for your ally or helper," (An-Nisaa 4:89)

Here is the link so that anyone who is suspicious can see I have been faithfully reproduced it. To falsify Holy Scripture like you did Tommy is definitely going to land you in the Hellfire;

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=88&to=91#s4_n118

If you see this version of this verse you will see almost the same thing but the translator has added a footnote to confirm the identity of those who deserved to die for their evil subversion and attempted overthrowing of the Muslims;

http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=4&aya=87&trans=en-ali_quli&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00

One is always advised to read a little before and a little after before forming or fabricating a meaning or deciding to whom a particular verse is referring. In the previous verse (4:88) we can see they were hypocrites. In 4:81, we can see that they were meeting at night and plotting against Islam. Tommy didn't even want anyone to read the first part of the actual verse he quoted and it is not surprising because it is basically describing him; "They wish that you should disbelieve just as they disbelieved so that you may all be alike".

It might be interesting to enquire where you got this incorrect translation from Tommy. Perhaps it was a hate site or perhaps you invented it? Please share it with us all with a link.

As for your other conjecture, it is true that we must obey the Messenger of God (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) but how do we know which narrations are actually genuine? Fortunately everything that is of any importance is already within the Holy Quran and nothing important has been left out.

All schools of Islam testify that the Noble Quran is still perfectly intact. There is but one version of it and this is agreed upon by all Muslims without exception. No one can supplant what was revealed.

There are a vast number of ahadith some of which are considered outright lies. Only 25% were considered to be authoritative by one scholar even in our most famous collection (Kitab al-Kafi). Islam had a rough time as soon as the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) left this world and many ahadith were fabricated by mischief makers (same mischief; different century). Any rascal can invent ahadith and they certainly did by the thousands!

You may well be able to find evidence apostasy from what humans have said but they are without the authority to represent Islam. Even though they may say they possess the actual words of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih), this does not mean that they are true or that we have to obey them; this is Islam - not a game of 'Simon says' where anyone can create whatever commandment they wish.

We have a complex and time consuming system for the classification of ahadith. Their chain of narrators is carefully examined and it is ascertained which are strong, weak or absolutely false and they are graded if they might well be true. ANY that are in contradiction to the Holy Quran are thrown out and their narrator is considered unreliable for all his other narrations as well.

So it is all well and good you finding all these statements from various individuals with Islamic sounding names but if it contradicts the Glorious Quran it is clearly not Islam. Every school of thought within Islam agrees upon this unanimously.

If a Muslim could not freely decide to leave Islam without being punished by his peers the Holy Quran would have mentioned this. Instead it clearly states that there is NO earthly punishment. On top of these blatantly obvious ayahs which perfectly address leaving Islam, there are a multitude of other verses which confirm absolute freedom of religion;

"And whoso opposeth the Messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell—a hapless journey's end!" (An-Nisaa' 4:115)

"Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him]." (Al-Ma'idah 5:92).

Allah Almighty (swt) says to Noah (as): "Shall We compel you to accept it when you are averse to it?" (Hud 11: 28).

"There shall be no compulsion in religion..." (Al-Baqarah 2:256).

"Let him who wants to believe, believe; and let him who wants to deny, deny." (Al-Kahf 18: 29).

"If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?" (Yunus 10:99)

I am sure there are many more but here are just a few. What you are proposing is entirely against everything that Islam stands for. You haven't a leg to stand on. You cannot show me one verse from the Holy Quran that supports your ridiculous notion. You have listed a number of partial verses, none of which prescribe a death sentence for choosing to leave Islam. We do indeed obey the Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) but he clearly says there is no earthly punishment.

 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 11:23 am
Exactly! Islam (like many other religions) seeks to control every facet of life...but in order to make it attractive, it gives MEN all the power.
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 11:26 am
(My comment there was directed to Antonia....NOT the diatribe of "ABU"
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 12:01 pm
I know there've been lots of different translations of the Bible and some're definitely mistranslated, so I assume the same goes for the Koran. Since most of us don't read Arabic, what specific English translation of the Koran do the English-speakers here use and think's accurate?
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 12:30 pm
Dear Antonia,
I am amazed that you cannot bear to refer to our religion using its correct name which is 'Islam'. Can you imagine how you would feel if I referred to you or your loved ones however I pleased just to let you know I disliked them? What would you think of such a rude person who after you twice politely asked them to refrain and politely explained why it is such an inaccurate name yet they still persisted with their belittling?! This tells me a great deal about you; all that I need to know.

The fact that you see no problem with the whole world being married to each other is also very strange. Do you really think four husbands would be ok to only see you once in four nights? What about their needs? You think they wouldn't fight? I think you are being entirely unrealistic. I would not share a woman under any circumstance but I know women even recommend their husbands take another wife.

The opinions we have of men are irrelevant; polyandry is impractical and impossible to implement even if all men are saints. There are still infinite practical problems with it. What about inbreeding? Custody if there should be a divorce? What about venereal diseases spreading over whole continents because of the huge marital relationships that everyone would share? Inheritance? Surnames? How can we work out what relation we all are to one another? It is a total disaster! How can you "simply have no agreement with it"!? I think I can guess.

Polyandry seldom if ever happens in nature and it will not work in humans either; this is blatantly obvious. You are just trying to fault Islam with this conjecture.

And what is this about putting us in concentration camps?!

There is only one version of the Quran in Arabic and it is universally agreed upon and sealed against any tampering because no one has the authority to change it. There are half a dozen famous and well credentialed translations in English which all have wide approval but they are all virtually identical. Many sites list every translation of the main accepted works so you can read them side by side, verse by verse. The Holy Quran is very safe; even in its translated form.

I would love to debate with anyone who is genuine even if they may have been dissuaded from the religion of Islam with the type of lies that we see here but I have concluded there is little hope of you ever embracing Islam and I don't think you have any intention of debating sensibly. Since it is no longer progressive to continue this discussion I hope we can leave it there. I hope you will think deeply about the path you are on and where it will lead you. I thought for a minute that you may be genuine but your last posts tells me otherwise. I will pray that you will be guided.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 12:31 pm
Hi Pam, I see you still hate men and religion. Perhaps you should give both another chance; you might find you get some pleasure out of life and cheer up a bit. Anyway, lots of love to you :p
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:09 pm
The arguments you’ve made, Abu, make no sense.

Inbreeding’s just as much a potential problem if there are four wives and one husband as it would be with four husbands and one wife. If inbreeding’s a concern then no multiple spouses should be allowed at all.

Custody if there’s a divorce’s no different with four wives and one husband as with four husbands and one wife. In both cases the child’s one natural mother and one natural father who’d have the same rights no matter if the multiples were men or women.

Venereal disease’s just as likely to be spread with four wives and one husband as with four husbands and one wife. If multiple sex partners are worrisome in that regard then no multiple spouses should be allowed at all.

Inheritance? No different for four wives and one husband as with four husbands and one wife. People’d still leave their property to whomever they please.

Surnames wouldn’t be different. With four wives and one husband the wives don’t have to take their husband’s surnames. With one wife and four husbands the wife doesn’t have to take any of the husbands’ names. And kids can, as already, be given whichever natural parent’s last name the parents want.

How can we work out relationships? No different than with four wives and one husband. There one husband’s married to each. With four husbands and one wife the wife’s married to each husband.

And the whole world isn't married to one another just because women could have multiple husbands. Most men don't have multiple wives and most women'd not want to be married to multiple husbands. And in any case they'd only be married to their spouses not the whole world.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:19 pm
I'd overlooked mentioning that Mohammedanism's not the only faith that allows its men to have many wives. Mosaicism (in its scriptures) allows it as do some Christian sects (who've obviously a belief that Jesus got misquoted or supplanted.) Other non-Abrahamic religion've also allowed polygamy. So a disliking of allowing men what isn't permitted women's not an attack on one religion. It's an attack on the idea of permitting to one what's denied the other. A liking for fairness and balance.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 5:42 am
Abu Sajjad, your comment is typical Islamic Taqqiya that will fool most people who know nothing about it but won't fool those who have studied it. If you actually believe all that nonsense about freedom of religion and conscience then you are indeed uninformed about Islam.

Those verses you quote have been abrogated/cancelled out by later more hateful ones. Mohammed said fairly peaceful things when he was trying to get converts in Mecca, then failing at that he moved to Medina, became a warlord and bandit, gathered a gang of murderous, thieving thugs around him and started out to force everyone in the area to convert, die or flee (while stealing their properties and goods and robbing passing caravans). He forced everyone in Mecca to convert or die and most did, but when he died many people abandoned Islam thinking it was safe to do so, but his remaining warlords forced them to remain Muslims. If Mohammed was serious about 'no compulsion' he certainly didn't practice it once he moved to Medina.

Are you renouncing all the verses of hate toward non-Muslims in the Qur'an alone (around 109)? Hopefully so. If you believe Islam should be reformed, throwing out all the hate, as a few other Muslims desire (under threat of death, no less), then we applaud you and wish you well. But Islam can't be reformed without admitting it is a fraud.

You know, as well as we do, that 'The Reliance of the Traveller' is the prime text on Islamic jurisprudence/law. Here is what it says on apostasy:

FROM ‘THE RELIANCE OF THE TRAVELLER’
05.4 (0: There is no expiation for killing someone who has left Islam, a highwayman (def: 015), or a convicted married adulterer, even when someone besides the caliph kills him.) and
“Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst…..When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed…
There is no indemnity for killing an apostate…” (‘Umdat al-Salik, Reliance of the Traveler, Chapter 08.0-08.4)

All four schools of Sunni Islamic law (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali), as well as the other main schools of Shia Islamic law (al-Ismā īliyyūn and Ithnā ashariyya), unanimously agree that a former Muslim male, also known as an apostate, must be executed. While some hold that an apostate woman should also be executed while some say she should be imprisoned and beaten 5 times a day until she repents or dies. Nice.

Surah 2 was cancelled by Surahs 5 and 9, the last two Surahs Mohammed wrote. You should know that the Qur'an is not written in chronological order and even verses together in one Surah may have been written years apart. It makes no sense without the hadith to explain what it's about.

Surah 9 is filled with hatred of non-Muslims.

Are you renouncing the hadith? Bukhari?:

"...for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."' Sahih Bukhari, Book 52, Volume 4, Number 260

Before he died, Muhammad sent his warriors against pagan Arab tribes, such as the al-Harith, demanding that they either convert to Islam or be wiped out (naturally, they opted for the Religion of Peace). He cursed Christians and Jews to the very end (Bukhari 8:427).

Muhammad said, "Allah marvels at those who are brought to paradise in chains" (Bukhari 52:254).


We've already mentioned that much of the Qur'an was lost and changed according to Islamic writers. The hadith refers to the verse on stoning adulterers but it has been lost from the Qur'an.

Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an—A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”

When Ibn Umar—son of the second Muslim caliph—heard people declaring that they knew the entire Qur’an, he said to them: “Let none of you say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Koran,’ for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, ‘I have learned what is extant thereof’” (Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an).

Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif—Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Bukhari vol.6 book 61 no.509 p.477-478)


The Qur'an is a highly flawed book written by a highly flawed man on bits and pieces of wood, leaves etc over a period around 20 years. It was memorized by other people (who can trust their memory?). Mohammed admitted he couldn't remember it. After he died there were no Qur'ans as such. Abu Bakr had the bits and pieces brought together with what those still alive could remember but since it was written without vowels there many different interpretations. There were several versions when Uthman had them all gathered together 19 yrs after Mohammed died and had 4 men work on combining what was available into one version, ordering the burning of all others, but many Muslims didn't accept it, though it is the version used today.

Only 43 of 114 surahs in the present Qur'an have not been abrogated or changed. How can this be the eternal unchanging word of the Creator, the greatest intelligence in the universe? Doesn't he know what he believes without having to change his mind later? Just reading the Qur'an, think, does this sound like the words from the greatest intelligence? Does this sound like the most loving, forgiving being? No, many humans are far more loving and forgiving than this angry, tantrum-throwing parody of a god.

 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 6:42 am

Islam 'IS' the living of the Holy Quran! It even says as much within its own pages. Anything which is not there is not important. Anything which is in there is of vital importance.
From the second Surah of the Holy Quran;
"This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the pious, for those who believe in the existence of that which is beyond the reach of perception, who establish Prayer and spend out of what We have provided them, who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and have firm faith in the Hereafter.
Such are on true guidance from their Lord; such are the truly successful." Al-Baqara 2:2-5)

You cannot possibly be telling me that your own pack of lies actually takes president over the Holy Quran as to what Islam is?! You think your false notions that are in direct opposition to this, the most awesome book in the entire history of the world, hold more authority that God's own dictation of His religion!? I think it is time you found yourself another occupation - propaganda is clearly not your forte. I hope all who read this will make a mental note of your fascinating delusion.

Anyway, just in case there are any genuine people who might become taken in by your evil games I will make sure they understand what you are up to;

An-Nissa 4:89 is talking about a specific band of murderous and corrupt hypocrites who are plotting to destroy the Muslims.

What does the US government do to those who want to murder Americans and destroy America? It kills them or keeps them at Guantanamo Bay for torture and humiliation. It certainly does not "take from them allies" either!!

After warnings have been given, Islam forces its proven and repeated dangerous enemies to leave their lands unless they mend their evil ways. And only if they refuse to cease their hostilities or leave, only then are they destroyed. What do you find to hate about this?

There is no Earthly punishment for apostasy -please just accept that you are mistaken. I have categorically proven this.

I have always affirmed that the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) has more rights over me (as a Muslim) than I have over myself but I am not so gullible to believe everything that anyone says about him (saawa) because I know there are rascals like you throughout history who would fabricate lies and try to mislead others so they embrace evil instead.

The Holy Quran is the ONLY Infallible source of Islam other than the Masumeen (alayhimus salaam) themselves and so everything else has to be measured against the Holy Quran for its validity. If it is in harmony with the Noble Quran then it is graded on the authority of the chain of narrators - if it is contrary to the principles of the Infallible Quran then it is dismissed out of hand and discarded as lies. There is no point in trying to push your nonsense and lies when they are in direct opposition to the Holy Quran! If you are so desperate to find something to hate about Islam then search the Glorious Quran or you are wasting your time. Even if you did find something that was fabricated by rascals, it is still not Islam unless the Noble Quran supports it.

As for the entirely fallacious conclusions you have drawn from a few random verses from Surah Al-Kahf, I suggest you do not lend us your bizarre interpretations in future. Did you not read that Khidr was an angel from which Allah (Azza wa Jall) had "imparted a special knowledge" (18:65). Angels do not have free will; they can only obey Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala). Is the wind evil because it blows a house down? Khidr was a unique being and was beyond human laws which have been prescribed for us. The deep meanings in this chapter are not meant for you yet but I can promise you that no Muslim on earth would accommodate your asinine interpretation. You alone have this strange concept and as such, it is obviously not an Islamic principle.

Even if there was an incredibly tenuous link there by a huge stretch of the imagination and misquoting/selective pasting of small parts, what are you going to do about the two verses that spell it out categorically that there is no earthly punishment for leaving Islam? Here there are again just in case you missed it the first half a dozen times I have pasted them;

"And whoso opposeth the Messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell—a hapless journey's end!" (An-Nisaa' 4:115)

"Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only* duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him]." (Al-Ma'idah 5:92).
*The word 'only' is significant here. This proves that there can be no lawful earthly punishment for leaving Islam after having embraced it.

I have seen enough to know you are only trying to make mischief out of nothing and then hoping to use it to attempt to spread hatred and division. No one is going to believe a word you say about Islam having seen what you attempted to do here.

If you do not love Islam then you do not need to embrace it; no one is asking you to. Please just do something constructive with your life and try to spread a little love; you will be much happier God willing.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:03 am
Dear Rob and/or Jay,

There is no question of whether one believes that Islam teaches freedom of religion; it is there for all to see. The verses I posted were referenced; anyone can easily check and see that they are indeed there. Here they are again - please feel free to doubt all you like but anyone can validate this;

Allah Almighty (swt) says to Noah (as): "Shall We compel you to accept it when you are averse to it?" (Hud 11: 28).

"There shall be no compulsion in religion..." (Al-Baqarah 2:256).

"Let him who wants to believe, believe; and let him who wants to deny, deny." (Al-Kahf 18: 29).

"If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?" (Yunus 10:99)

"And whoso opposeth the Messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell—a hapless journey's end!" (An-Nisaa' 4:115)

"Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him]." (Al-Ma'idah 5:92).

The 'Reliance of the Traveller' was written by enemies of Islam in order to fraudulently bring Islam into disrepute. I get my Islam from the Infallible and Glorious Quran and I am not the slightest bit interested in the lies from your book.

It is irrelevant what anyone else says; these few verses from the Impeccable Quran are not difficult to understand and neither are they unclear. I fail to see what you can do about it. There is no compulsion in religion - this is the verdict of Islam from its unanimously agreed, undisputed highest authority; the Unique and Sublime Holy Quran. It is no use arguing about it.

Let's imagine for a minute that some verses of the Holy Quran were abrogated or altered; BY WHOSE AUTHORITY WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT? I would like an answer to this. Who has more wisdom and knowledge then Almighty God and His greatest and final Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih)?

Absolutely nothing has been or ever will be altered in any way in the Holy Quran; this is God's promise. HE (swt) has sealed Islam against any tampering. Obviously no one has authority over God (Mighty and Majestic) and His Messenger (may peace and God's blessings be upon him and his family).
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:41 am
I'd been looking into which English translation of the Koran to get based on general acceptance of accuracy of translation from the Arabic, and read that the most widely used English translation's (said to be the most frequently sold in Arab bookshops and given out in many mosques is by Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan - 'The Noble Qu'ran in the English Language'. Others praise Shaykh Ahmad Zaki Hammad's translation, 'The Gracious Qur’an'.

Are either of those thought to be acceptable English translations?
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:47 am
Why bother with Tommy S.? What lies behind his attacks is this---"-"you are proof if any were needed that satan is alive and well". This reveals he is a Christian who damns anyone whom he cares to damn using the belief of his religion to vivlify other people of other religions.

As for Rob and Jay, they are cowards and liars. They cannot confront the challenge to prove their accusation of Mary P. that she is a 'paid Islamist propagandist'.

Who believes anything a liar says?

THE COWARD IS INEVITABLY A LIAR, AND THE LIAR IS INEVITABLY A COWARD.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:53 am
I also just read several scholarly opinions that Muhammad Pickthall's rendering of the Koran was perhaps the most faithful to the Arabic. Opinions'd be appreciated.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 9:15 am
Abu S, if there's no abrogation or change in the qur'an's teachings how can you decide which teaching is true? You just pick the one that fits your own point of view? 'No compulsion in religion' which contradicts totally the many others that say Muslims must conquer all unbelievers and subdue them so that 'all religion must be for Allah'. You know the no compulsion stuff doesn't count.

'The Qur'an is unique among sacred scriptures in accepting a doctrine of abrogation in which later pronouncements of the Prophet declare null and void his earlier pronouncements. Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation and Mohammed's deity's difficulty in having a coherent set of principles:

•When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?(Q2:106 / Bukhari vol.6 book 60 no.527 p.489)

•When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.(Q16:101)
•God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.(Q13:39)(which must be full of lots of contradictions too)
•If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.(Q17:86)

Surah 15:9 of the Qur’an proclaims: 'We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).' Allah failed in all of this. Bukhari et al make it clear the qur'an was changed and much was lost. Allah was not involved after all. If even one word of the qur'an was changed or lost that proves it is false, as this grand claim says. You, Abu, are rejecting Islam's own revered historians', hadith writers' and theologians' own admission that the Q is incomplete at best.

Rather than explain away inconsistencies in passages regulating the Muslim community, many jurists acknowledge the differences but accept that latter verses trump earlier verses. Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew.'

'Not all verses in the Qur'an have the same weight in assessment. Unlike the Old or New Testaments, the Qur'an is not organized by chronology but rather by size of chapters. Even within chapters, chronology can be confused. In sura (chapter) 2, for example, Allah revealed verses 193, 216, and 217 to Muhammad shortly after he arrived in Medina, but only revealed verses 190, 191, and 192 six years later. This complicates interpretation, all the more when some verses appear to contradict.'

The difference between the Qur’an and other books is that the Qur’an promises that no changes in its text will ever occur. The Qur’an has not been perfectly preserved, which means that the promise of Surah 15:9 was not kept. The Qur’an cannot therefore be the Word of God'(http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/quran.html)

The first surah written was 96. The most hateful ones toward non-Muslims that abrogate all the nicer ones like 'no compulsion in religion'(2:256), surahs 5 & 9 were 2nd and 3rd from the last one written, so they trump any earlier verses.

Surah 2, The Cow (do you really believe this nonsensical list of meaningless drivel is the words from the greatest intelligence in the universe?) is the first surah, mostly, written in Medina.

Here's the official order of when each surah was written and which verses are out of order too:
http://www.bombaxo.com/chronsurs.html This helps make some sense of the Qur'an's ramblings if you don't use the ahadith to give it it's setting and meaning. It's interesting how you are renouncing the hadith, or is that only because they disprove all you say?

 

Ge M. (218)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 11:03 am
@Mary P, I note that you are unable to contradict anything that Carola has claimed by the use of your "holy" books. In other words, there is nothing in Islam to contract the appalling and abysmal abuses that Mohammed committed.

@Kenneth, you are quite correct that Islamophobes/Islamophiles are terms coined by the Muslim Brotherhood to imply that criticism of Islam suggests that you must be a hater of Muslims. That is not true but how such comments are regarded. However, nothing else that you have said is relevant. You have not suggested that continuous and ongoing attacks against other religions than Islam is unacceptable. Muslims attempted genocide against Christians in South Sudan and Egyptians are now attempting the same against Christians.To claim that you are not aware or do not believe is unacceptable as this information (confirmed by many sources) is available elsewhere both on care2 and the internet. Of course, what I expect is for you to come back and attack someone on the board, probably me for pointing out your appalling behaviour, and continue to ignore both the subject of the news story and the ongoing attacks on non-Muslims. I am sorry that you have such a sad life that your only object or ability is ot insult everyone as you cannot answer questions or counter with proper and well informed comments as others have.

@Abu, the search for a fulfilling religion is often a long and hard road. I would have to ask which form of Islam you have actually chosen. It seems to me that whatever version you have chosen, it will be at odds with the others. One only has to look at countries such as Iraq to see.

As for Mohammed the hedonist, his fascination with sex is all through the Koran and the Hadith. The Koran tells how to have sex with a baby girl and talks about him abusing Aisha, marrying her at 6 years and continuing it and forcing her to have sex at 9 years even though she wasi still playing with dolls. He married his daughter-in-law because he fancied her, and took her away from his adopted son, and had sex with his dead aunt. The Koran talks about sex with pre-pubescent boys although homosexuality is frowned upon. But, men can go to heaven and their wives can watch them having sex with 72 virgins and 28 young pre-pubescent boys. (Presumably the ones that terrorists use and blow up remotely.) I will put the article in the next box complete with quotes.

Sahih Bukhari (2/911), which records Muhammad saying, “Revelations [i.e., the Koran] never come to me when I’m dressed in women’s clothing—except when I’m dressed in Aisha’s,” implying that it was something of a habit for the prophet to dress in female clothing.

Faid al-Qabir (3/371), wherein Muhammad is on record saying, “My greatest loves are women and perfume: the hungry is satisfied after eating, but I never have enough of women.”

Islam is full of stolen stories from both the Old Testament and the New Testament which have been changed to make Mohammed sound better eg the story of the talking donkey Numbers 22:28 Then the LORD gave the donkey the ability to speak. "What have I done to you that deserves your beating me three times?" it asked Balaam. Mohammed then took the story and changed it to try to make him look good After conquering the Jews of Khaybar, and plundering their belongings, among other things, a donkey fell into the lot of the prophet, who proceeded to ask the donkey: “What is your name?"

The donkey answered, "Yazid Ibn Shihab. Allah had brought forth from my ancestry 60 donkeys, none of whom were ridden on except by prophets. None of the descendants of my grandfather remain but me, and none of the prophets remain but you and I expected you to ride me.
 

Ge M. (218)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 11:05 am
72 Virgins and Boys

Muslims are motivated to terrorism because the Quran tells them that fighting non-believers is a duty of every Muslim and the only way to be certain of going to heaven to enjoy untold sensual pleasures is to die fighting in the cause of Allah.

If they can make it to heaven, one of the rewards all Muslims are promised is 72 virgins. The number of virgins is not specified in Quran, it comes from a quotation of Muhammad recorded in one of the lesser known Hadith. ("Hadith" is an Arabic word meaning traditions. After Muhammad's death, several collections of his deeds and sayings were assembled. These collections are called Hadith and form the second most authoritative document is Islam, right after the Quran.)

VIRGINS (Houris):

Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). The poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get anything. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.

The specific Hadith in which the number of virgins is specified is Hadith Al-Tirmidhi in the Book of Sunah (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah, chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise. The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Quranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman:

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]."

(QURAN 37:40-4 : "In the Gardens of Paradise, Facing one another on thrones, Round them will be passed a cup of pure wine; White, delicious to the drinkers, Neither they will have any kind of hurt, abdominal pain, headache, or sin, nor will they suffer intoxication from it. And with them will be chaste females, restraining their glances, with wide and beautiful eyes."

(QURAN 44:51-55): "Verily! The righteous will be in Paradise. Among Gardens and Springs; Dressed in fine silk and also in thick silk, facing each other, and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes."

(QURAN 52: 17-20): "Verily, for those who fear Allah there will be Gardens in Paradise, filled with Delight. Enjoying in that which their Lord has bestowed on them, and the fact that their Lord saved them from the torment of the blazing Fire. The Lord will say: ‘Eat and drink with happiness because of what you used to do’. They will recline with ease on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris with wide lovely eyes."

(QURAN 55:54-59): "Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the Gardens will be near at hand. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Wherein will be those houris, restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? In beauty they are like rubies and coral. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny?"

(QURAN 55:70-77): "Therein gardens will be fair wives good and beautiful; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Houris restrained in pavilions; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Whom no man has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny?"

(QURAN 56:37-40): "...We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand…."

(QURAN 78:31-34): "As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup."

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Quran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 AD) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Quranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

An Hamas spokesman correctly uses the word martyr (shahid) and not suicide bomber, since those who blow themselves up almost daily in Israel and those who died on September 11 were dying in the noblest of all causes, Jihad, which is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Quran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined for the purpose of advancing Islam. While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged: "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'." [Sahih Muslim, chapters 781, 782, The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom.]

Eternal erection and virginity

Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 AD) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 AD) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 AD), Quranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

BOYS.

Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic countries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

(QURAN 52:24): "And there will go round boy-servants of theirs, to serve them as if they were preserved pearls."

(QURAN 56:17): "They will be served by immortal boys."

(QURAN 76:19): "And round about them will (serve) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you would think them scattered pearls."

It is common in Arabic poetry to glorify homosexuality, take their famous poet Abu Nuwas:

O the joy of sodomy!
So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
Turn not away from it--
therein is wondrous pleasure.
Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
twisting on his temple
and ride as he stands like some gazelle
standing to her mate.
A lad whom all can see girt with sword
and belt not like your whore who has
to go veiled.
Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
very best to mount them, for women are
the mounts of the devils

One of the reasons Nietzsche hated Christianity was that it "made something unclean out of sexuality", whereas Islam, many would argue, was sex-positive. One cannot imagine any of the Church fathers writing ecstatically of heavenly sex as al-Suyuti did, with the possible exception of St Augustine before his conversion.

In our Western world where many scientist purportedly believe in Evolution when in fact they do not inside, it is reported that when confronted with a question on this dichotomy of mind, their usual answer is: "I must believe in Evolution and reject Christianity for Christianity limits my sex life".

It seems then that this promise of sensual happiness and sexual bliss in paradise, not only is the motivator for the Islamic terrorists but it may even be a motivator for our secular evolutionists to join the rank of Islam.

 

monica r. (41)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 11:59 am
Mary, Mary, quite contrary,
"there is no need to defend Islam! Its beauty speaks for itself! That is, ONLY if you have eyes to
see its beauty!"

You conflate actions by a government that are NOT done in the name of religion (drone attacks etc) with actions of individuals trying to be faithful to their (false) god and his prophet (puppet).

A good, nice, non-terrorist, muslim is living by the quran/sunna or in accordance with shari'a if he does these things:
1. treat his wife as sex object/chattel, at least it is his right to do so (dowry purchases right to use of her reproductive organs on demand at any time if they are at home, she does not have the right to "have a headache")
2. have his daughter's clitoris or genitalia mutilated
3. leave half to his daughters what is left to his sons
4. easily divorce his wife but she can't easily (or sometimes just can't) divorce him
5. take multiple wives but women can only have one husband
6. he can marry a non-muslim but women can't
7. he can wear shorts and a t-shirt but his wife/daughter must wear a scarf, and long sleeves, and often a garment over her outfit and may need to cover her face, even when it's 100 degrees out
8. he prays 5 times a day but if a woman walks by him, he has to pray it over
9. in his daily prayers he prays 17 times against Christians and Jews
10. His meat comes from animals that had their throats slit while fully conscious
11. his wife is not allowed to have friends her husband doesn't approve; she is not supposed to have contact with non-relative males at all
12. his wife can go out of the house by permission from him only, while he may come and go as he pleases
13. beats his wife if she isn't compliant, for allaah will not ask a man as to why he beats his wife
14. never drinks alcohol
15. doesn't allow pet dogs
16. doesn't listen to music

Mary swears this is all beautiful, although why a woman would choose to be a sub-class I don't get. Some women always date men who smack them around, too,;maybe it's like that.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 3:32 pm
Gillian: "Kenneth, you have not suggested that continuous and ongoing attacks against other religions than Islam is unacceptable." TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE. I have stated a number of times that I don't condone ANY violent acts of injustice.
"you are quite correct that Islamophobes/Islamophiles are terms coined by the Muslim Brotherhood" TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE. I have never said this or implied it. 'Islamophile' was a term used by Carol May to attack me with.
"To claim that you are not aware or do not believe is unacceptable as this information (confirmed by many sources) is available elsewhere both on care2 and the internet." TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE. You are out of your tree! LOL. I have never claimed I am 'not aware or do not believe" that 'Muslims committed genocide against Christians" in the Sudan. Where do you get this sh.t from? You make it up? You manufacture it in your mind? You are a nutbar Gillian.
AS WITH EVERY MEMBER OF YOUR ATTACK DOG CLIQUE YOU ARE CALLED OUT ON FALSE STATEMENTS AND LIES. THEY ARE CONTINUOUS. THEY ARE THE SAME TYPE ONE FOR ONE.

Rob and Jay are cowards and liars, they have accused Mary P. of being a 'paid Islamist propagandist' and have scurried away and ignored my request for proof.

THE LIAR IS INEVITABLY A COWARD AND THE COWARD IS INEVITABLY A LIAR.
 
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