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The Revenge of Trickle-Down Economics

Business  (tags: americans, democrats, republicans, propaganda, economy, congress, investments, trickle down, incompetence )

- 2620 days ago -
Differences between Democrats and Republicans on the deficit are cosmetic. Both are committed to a broken, corrupt system. Both sides agree that government spending will continue to follow the old "trickle down" theory, despite its failure to date.

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Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 15, 2011, 5:32 pm
I watched Democrats rip the GOP a new one on C-span, all day. They fought for the poor with really strong words at times. Obama still thinks they'll compromise but why is it, he's the only one? By the next election the GOP will be so exposed and rightly blamed, it will be a miracle if they win.
Every election from here on out has to have a get out the youth vote theme. We know the stakes. They have little way of knowing.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 15, 2011, 5:35 pm
They have no jobs bill after 40 days.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday February 15, 2011, 6:14 pm

Boehner: If Jobs Are Lost As A Result Of GOP Spending Cuts 'So Be It'

These are folks entrusted to bring about jobs and pull from the ashes our weakened economy? Give me a break!

The only thing that trickles down is yellow, and it ain't gold.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 15, 2011, 9:00 pm
CIVIL SERVANTS have no clue about the average working man.......I'm sure that most don't even know how to use a screwdriver or a hammer. We need NOT look in their direction for jobs or anything that solves a problem....they are NOT PROBLEM SOLVERS. They are SUCKERS.....AND THEY ARE ALONG FOR THE RIDE.
The best place to be is inside your minds....and what you would like to do that can be a better "place" than you are right now. The worlds needs have increased, not decreased. So, if we believe that, we have more opportunities to CREATE and INVENT......and look for your business loan to be from NON BANKERS....people that won't drive their hooks into you.....find a way to do something better and work on it ONE STEP at a time.....that's how the Pioneers did this country in the beginning and it was good (until the ACT of 1871) but it still works and the opportunities are infinite.....just keep those CIVIL SERVANTS and Bankers out of your life until we get our REPUBLIC back................

Joanne M (22)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 6:03 am
Great article. The current system benefits the wealthy and the large corporations but even they are not immune to economic meltdowns - they lost a lot of money in this recession but they have recovered more quickly than the average person.

The wealthy and the corporations both would stand to lose big time in the global economic melt down that would follow when the US debt is down graded. The last melt down showed just how tightly intertwined the world economies are now. When the US is down graded or defaults, both the wealthy and large corporations will be hit hard. You would think they would do what is needed to get this country on the right track.

cecily w (0)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 6:46 am
Economics is not a "science"--it is a manmade compilation of convenient theories. Yet, it draws followers who don't have the guts to improvise.

Corporations are not living creatures--they are conveniences crafted by those who wish to spare themselves personal liablity for their decisions. Yet, the U.S. Supreme Court has validated the "personhood" of the corporation.

The pandering power-hungry politicians posture on both sides of the aisle--rattling off rhetoric. Yet, most have no idea what they are talking about.

Kath P (9)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 6:51 am
If those in power, both business and government, don't pull their heads out of the sand soon we are ALL going to feel the results of their actions!

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 11:15 am
The only person that seems to be addressing the point of this excellent article is Joanne. In a nutshell "why do we retain a system as dysfunctional as this?" Why aren't we pursuing Roosevelt's "Bubble Up" approach to fixing the economy rather that "Bush's and Obama's trickle-down economics." "Neither party offers any alternative to "trickle down", as if no alternative exists or is worth debating."


Paul Elder (3)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 2:08 pm

Mary Donnelly (47)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 2:24 pm
Thanks Norm--great post and excellent comments.

Joanne M

I suspect that the "Too Big To Fail" idea is alive and well; consequently the powers that be think disasters will not befall to them, despite historical and empirical evidence to the contrary--latest example Borders Books.

Hans Mueller

I don't know the answer to your question. There are about 310 million people living in the USA--about 45 million of whom are 'existing' rather than' living'; I am surprised that there is so little outrage that in the richest nation state on the planet so much poverty ( and its effects) is condoned.

More grass roots, informed, co-ordinated action might well do the trick. It would be a bit awkward if the USA were to default on its debts, or have its credit rating reduced.

Eternal G (745)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 3:54 pm
So... when are the winds of change going to blow in the USA???

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 3:55 pm
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Dee C (9)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 4:07 pm
I remember during the days when the banks were getting bailed out, that Jon Stewart suggested during a "Daily Show" interview with an economics expert -- that it might be better to give the bail out money to main street folks and let the money trickle UP for a change. Even if that idea wouldn't put our economy back on track, I wonder if could be any worse for the country than what we have now.

Kitty Courtney (11)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 4:34 pm
I believe that the U.S. is headed toward revolution. I am reminded again and again of 18th century France - we have a "let them eat cake" mentality in our government at the present. I myself have been almost broken my this government. I was laid off from my job of 10 years because the "Bank" (Comerica) told the president of the company that if he didn't close the office where I worked they wouldn't extend his line of credit (closing the office made no difference whatsoever to the profitabily of the company and he had promised that he never would close the office but they had him by the short hairs!). I am 65. I have had to subsist on unemployment insurance which is about half of what my salary had been, I have almost lost my condo, my car, my credit rating (which had been excellent) in now gone. I can't get food stamps (I did for 6 months before I had to recertify and the 'income' exceeded what was allowed, those food stamps made a big difference). So, I have been forced to apply for my Social Security Retirement early and my experiences with the Social Security Administration employees has been a nightmare. The egotistical, arrogant, condescending, ignoranct bureacrat who I had the extreme misfortune of getting gave me information that was wrong, and did not give me information that would have helped me. I have been dealing with this since last November when I had to get Medicare (either that or have no medical insurance at all unless I was wealthy enough to afford private insurance). The whole process has been a complete nightmare - none of these bureacrats knows anything and they are so comfortable in their ignorance because in order to be competent they would have to care and they do not. I am seriously considering becoming a consultant to what must be many hundreds of ppl in my same situation, now that I have gone through I have the answers that these worthless bureaucrats should have been able to give me. So, whenever I hear the Medicare program held up as an example of a government program that works and that we should expand to cover all U.S. - I just want to scream. I have always taken great pride in being an American citizen and believed that the United States was the greatest country in the world. Go on and start the hate rant, but I no longer believe that.

pam M (98)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 8:01 pm
Ugly when the blinders are off isn't it? God only knows what other atrocities have been placed upon the citizenry without our knowledge. It looks as though we are slowly coming out from under generations of brainwashing.

It hurts and it makes me angry that lives, limbs and blood of the innocent have been lost and shed in protection of "the American Way of Life". We've got kids on battle grounds dying for oil rights, and God knows what else. Returning to a nation of sheep whose only interest is the newest cell phone, ipad or American Idol winner. A nation that could give a damn if these warriors live as the homeless, lack medical and proper mental care or return in a pine box..

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . . what a crock. This quote only true if you're part of the upper percentile of the US population. The rest of us are cattle to be herded into pens awaiting the slaughter.

Kitty Courtney (11)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 8:11 pm
I wish I didn't agree with you so completely and totally, Pamela M, but it is the truth.

Julie W (32)
Wednesday February 16, 2011, 11:09 pm
Trickle down economics has NEVER worked. Why does anyone still believe in it?

Norm C (74)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 12:11 am
It is time for most self-described Democrats to wipe away the scales from their eyes. Most Democratic officeholders, like their Republican counterparts, are corrupted by the campaign finance process.

We the People have a choice. Either we change this dynamic or we might as well crawl into a cave and give up. We will have to decide if we understand what it is to be an American. Will we defend our representative democracy from the oligarchs, the wealthy who can spend virtually unlimited money to buy anything they want, or will we turn our backs on our children's future and go shopping or sit glued to American Idol?

Do not misunderstand me. I agree that some of the Dems are better than ANY of the Reps. But not enough of them are. And we are as much to blame as they are. We have not demanded more from them than some sloganeering. We have not held them accountable for their votes that rewarded their funders at our expense. We have not roused ourselves and our families and our friends and neighbor from their slumbers to challenge the corrupted in the primaries.

Politicians will never need to defer to our demands so long as they can count on us voting like stampeded cattle at the sight of a campaign ad pointing out the terrible consequences if the Repubs. get in. The problem is that the same terrible consequences befall us when the Dems beat back the Repubs.

Why are we not outraged? Why are we not demanding more? Our Pres. has struck appalling deals with the completely corrupt GOP leadership. He has given away the store and offers the possibility that he will give them the whole block of stores. Why do we still defend him? Why do we not demand far more from him?

The people of Wisconsin are rebelling against a new GOP governor who has a totalitarian persona. Gov. Scott Walker has created a phony budget crisis and is using it as an excuse to go after almost all state employees. He even threatened to call out the National Guard if public employees go out on strike. The commander of the Guard has issued him a rebuke, reminding him that the Guard is not his personal political enforcement thugs.

Wisconsinites are not buying their governor's dictatorial demands. They have launched the largest protests since the War in Vietnam. Every day the protests have grown. Wisconsin is only the tip of the iceberg.

This ultra conservative vendetta against working people is coming to a town near you. Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey, Tennessee, Nevada and others, emboldened by GOP victories last year are all chomping at the bit to tear down the rights working people fought and died for during the late 19th and first half of the 20th centuries.

You probably remember those rights from your childhood -- 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, child labor laws, the right to join a union, paid sick leave. All of these are under attack right now as never before, even more than they were under the criminal regimes of George W Bush and Ronald Reagan and were/are ignored during the ineffectual regimes of Bill Clinton and thus far of Barack Obama.

It is ironic that here in the United States of America, the home, the founding member of the family of democratic peoples, that democracy seems to be beyond the ability of most Americans. Have we been castrated by our TV shows and shopping malls? Have we lost our courage to stand up for ourselves? Have we become wage slaves to commercial advertising? Has our ability to think for ourselves been washed away by the steady drumbeat of political sloganeering and pundits who build their careers by spreading fear and division mostly through lies and total nonsense? Has nonsense become our sense of reality?

We will retrieve our democracy only if we first recover our selves, our guts, our willingness to step up to the forces of domination and control, the oligarchs who think they have the right to run the show behind closed doors.

Itís time to make our representatives more afraid of us than they are of The Funders. If you live in or near Wisconsin, why are you not in Madison? If you do not fight there, you WILL have to fight in your own town.

Geynell Eskite (68)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 12:51 am
We need a 24 hr., in your face, no holds barred, TRUTH channel. It should be run by the media watch groups, and offer round-the-clock debunking of the lies being told on Fox.As Democrats, we are sometimes too restrained, too hopeful that sanity and reason will automatically prevail, and that intelligence will win the day. Fox Not-News is winning the war on intelligence. People who are socially conservative will not easily forsake their prejudices or zealotry. But the raw provable truth or untruth of political and historical fact needs a champion. We need a way to reach the Fox viewers who are not in on the joke.

Hans Mueller (591)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 8:05 am
Yes indeed Geynell Eskite "Fox Not-News is winning the war on intelligence."

Sheryl G (363)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 9:52 am
"Republicans seem to think there is an inspiring quality in giving more money to the top one percent. When I hear this, I think of the `Horse and Sparrow' theory of economics that if you feed enough oats to the horse, some will pass through to feed the sparrows." -John Kenneth Galbraith

otherwise known as "trickle down economics" Horse and sparrow was the term used back at the turn of the Century and into 1920's.....and we all know what happened after that. Hey, this Country has been down this road before, but do we learn? No, obviously note, so as the quote goes, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, again, and again, and.........

However, I'm not letting the Democrats get off easy either, the two parties are playing good cop bad cop in my mind. No one in either party is really going about things in the most effective way that would be the least hurtful on the most who are suffering already. One can't go after the situation with an ax but it seems to be the only way our Leadership seems to understand.

As Kitty pointed out and I heard too out of Boehner's mouth.....So Be It!
The Weeper seems to only cry for his own personal agendas, yet has little compassion for those that don't fall wlithin his radar.

Norm C (74)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 11:13 am
Yes, Geynell,

Fox Not News is a toxic stew of cunning, deceit, immorality, propaganda and corruption. It is the anti-intelligence mouthpiece fit for a cowering and cowardly populace. Is that what Americans have become?

The Tea Partiers: a bellicose bunch of cowards afraid to look behind the wizards's curtain? too lazy to compare their beliefs to the everyday reality around them?

The run of the mill Democrats: too lazy to look behind the D on their ballots? too disinterested to compare their beliefs with the actions for their representatives?

The run of the mill Republicans: like the Tea Partiers and run of the mill Democrats too lazy to examine their ideologies and real life results?

I think we are better than that, and we had better start dmonstrating it.

Hans Mueller (591)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 11:49 am
Well Norm, I take it that you don't particularly care for Fox New or your local Tea Party organization? Not too surprised that you've run dry of good things to say about Republicans. But now the Democrats! Who do you like?

Norm C (74)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 12:55 pm
Really, Hans?

This is the best you could come up with?

Hans Mueller (591)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 12:58 pm
"Who do you like?" And the answer is hmmm.

Bonnie B (103)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 4:51 pm
Thanks for sharing this article, Norm. Why do the powers that be (whether Rep or Dem) continue to support a economic model that doesn't work? Duh! Because it puts money in the pockets of people backing or financed by the corpocracy....

I'd never heard of the Horse and Sparrow model! Proves to me that it is pure horse sh*t!!

I hope that what is happening in Wisconsin and other parts of the US will grow!

Sheryl G (363)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 5:37 pm
Google it, Horse and Sparrow.......same principle as the Trickle down economics. It was a term used at the beginning of the 1900's. Either way we get a golden shower of urine or get to pick through the sh*t for the crumbs......either way, either term, it's all the same for us and our ancestors who lived through this similar scenario.

Nelson Baker (0)
Thursday February 17, 2011, 5:39 pm
Yes, we have a broken system. Our government is run by big corporations through our elected representatives and backed by judges on all levels.

Toni C (508)
Friday February 18, 2011, 10:48 am
I passed out a lot of green stars, and wish I could have given a couple more. On this page we show STRENGTH, we show we are THINKING Americans, TIRED Americans... but, what are we going to do about it
... that's the question. Are we going to continue being like a bunch of sheep, and listen to all the mindless rhetoric, or are were going to stand up for what we believe in and try to turn this country back into the America we all love? We need strong leaders and so far, they seem scarce as hen's teeth.. I voted for Obama, thought he got a raw deal on his first two years in office, but, anymore, I don't know where he stands and I don't believe he is as strong as I once assumed. We need people like Feingold, Bernie Sanders, Kucinich... people who are not afraid to stand up and fight for the "common" man. Trickle down economis, my left foot... has not helped anyone other than the rich to get richer...

Sheryl G (363)
Friday February 18, 2011, 1:48 pm
Toni, you know I have thought about that too, what happened to the Obama most thought he was. I think he is trying too hard to appease everyone and appeases no one. The Republicans will still find wrong with him even if he did EVERYTHING their way, and that is not why he was elected, those who elected him thought he'd do things more his way.

I also think he realizes his life is in danger, simply for being a Black man, he looks at his daughters and I think he tries to play it as safe as he can so he will complete this without being shot. But the racist will hate him just because he is holding the Office of President, even if he didn't say a thing or do a thing. I think he is in a box he didn't expect. I may be totally wrong on all I said, as I can't climb into his brain and know what makes him tick, but these are some gut feelings I have on the matter.

In any case we need a more forceful figure as you said and we are not getting it. This iis not a time for a few hand shakes and may I's. I do believe in civility, but we need strong action or the suffering of the many will continue.

Hans Mueller (591)
Friday February 18, 2011, 2:34 pm
What about the Minutemen?

Sheryl G (363)
Friday February 18, 2011, 3:02 pm
What about them?

Hans Mueller (591)
Friday February 18, 2011, 3:19 pm
"we need strong action ".

The current Minutemen.

Sheryl G (363)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 8:21 am
I'm not talking about guns Hans, I'm talking about Leadership where a President gets on the podium like a Roosevelt and the New Deal and has a solid plan and goes with it. Like a JFK that said, we will be the first to get a man on the moon, like an Eisenhower that gave us the interstate highway system.
While we had both houses these should of been pushed through, as the WPA and the CCC jobs did to help stimulate the economy it put people to work, wasn't a hand out as they worked for it. Strong leadership not "may I" and certainly not guns.......bless those who stood without violence during the MLK marches, bless those who stood firm with Gandhi, bless the Egyptians who stood strong even when the thugs were released upon them.
And get us out of Wars that prop up Dictators, invest in green energy so we don't have to be protecting the oil interest at the expense of our economy and our sons and daughters lives. We are too much a bang bang shoot them up Country, violence begets violence, and we make more violence and enemies when we bomb the crap out of other people's neighborhoods who don't want us there in the first place.
VietNam didn't want the French why didn't we learn from them, no we went there and look at the mess we got ourselves into, the loss of lives, a destruction of their eco system, and a lasting legacy that still goes on. I just had a personal friend who lost her husband in 06, another who was the living dead until he shot himself, couldn't stand the effects of Agent Orange anymore.
We couldn't learn from the Russians who also wasn't wanted in Afghanistan, my goodness I just put on a story about how the Villigers can't tell the differance from a Russian soldier, a Canadian solidier, an American soldier, it is just another soldier invading their land as far as they can see. The video went on to say they don't even know a man walked on the moon, but they know they are living in fear from conflict all the time, they said the Taliban mostly left them alone but they fear more the Afghan Government, which we are supporting.
So strong action to me is not about might, it is however about Truth and justice, that we should stand firm on and I see little of it in this Country with the smoke and mirrors and the slash and burn attitudes that are being presented. You don't fix the problems on the backs of those who did not contribute towards the ills, you look to the ones who created the mess, which is the Corporations that will ride over all of us and have bought out many of the leaders in Washington on both sides of the fence and have even bought into our justice system.

I don't think the Minutemen will be that helpful at this stage of the game......we need to have the masses rise up in their Hearts not with their guns.

Hans Mueller (591)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 9:13 am
Dandelion - You are so right in what you said. Thank you.

What frustrates me is that I see a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction but not people rising up as with the Vietnam war. The one exception is the Tea Party. Now after everyone climes down off of the roof, I'm simply stating that they are a group that took action. Why is it that that we don't see the same kinds of groups on the liberal side? Better yet, would it ever be possible to have a united group or are we all too busy fighting among ourselves?

Sheryl G (363)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 11:02 am
Hans, in the beginning I even jumped on the Tea Party bandwagon. My goodness the town I was born in and lived in most my life was the founders of the ORIGINAL Tea Party way back when. Boston stole the idea from us and of coarse it being the Capital of Massachusetts they got the historical credit. However, there is a little plaque in the center of Newburyport that rights the history for those who care to read it. We are the same town that started the Coast Guard and many of our citizens were part of the underground railroad and some of the most avid writers for just causes hailed from our little city north of Boston and on the coast.

I was delighted in the beginning that people were standing up, speaking out, and used the term Tea Party, a term I was always personally fond of because my ancestors from the place of birth had stood up long ago. However, I say it being infiltrated, swayed, and taken over by an element that I want no part of, that stands against my core beliefs, so I early on distanced myself from the Tea Party as others did that I know.

I don't feel all Tea Party people are bad people, I find some have been misguided, I believe many got into it because they loved this Country, but I do not feel that the infiltration that happened is a good thing. The Tea Party has put in Candidates that I find are too far away from what I believe......sorry I just do not agree with what or how things are done via the group as a whole. Just to let you know I'm not part of the Coffee Party either and have been registered as an Independent voter my entire life.

Hans Mueller (591)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 11:14 am
Dandelion - Many readers probably think that I'm a member of the Tea party but I'm not. And I agree with you that there are some, and unfortunately high profile, that I would just as soon go find somewhere else to play. But I do wish that people could cease their bickering back and forth and start some kind of unified movement. Guess that's too much to wish.

Send a Green Star to Dandelion G.
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Norm C (74)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 11:36 am

For someone who claims to not be a member of the Tea Party, you certainly spend a lot of time posting Tea Party documents and names and talking points.

Like Dandelion and, apparently, you, I do not believe that all Tea Party members are well represented by their national leaders. I also believe from what I have seen that they have allowed themselves to be led into some pretty ridiculous actions. All those good people have been gulled into believing lies. As long as they listen to and watch the paranoid fantasies of people like Glenn Beck, the hogwash of Bill O'Reilly, the dimwtted lies of Sean Hannity and the perverted hatred of Rush Limbaugh, they will continue to be fodder for the Koch and Wyly brothers, RM Scaife, Seldon Adelson, Pete Peterson, etc., etc.

It is most unfortunate that, at this point at least, there seems to be no distance of any significance between the rank and file Tea Party supporters and their self-absorbed, arrogant and bent on world domination Funders, officials and Propagandists.

Hans Mueller (591)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 11:48 am
Fair enough Norm. Call me naive but I do think that the local Tea Party organizations are independent of those notarieties who have jumped on the band wagon. At lease the majority of them.

Norm C (74)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 11:53 am

While you may be right, when are they going to demonstrate some independence and thought? I realize that the news media will always concentrate on the easy interview and story which firstly means interviewing public officials and leaders and then covering conflict of whatever sort feeds into their preconceived storyline. I see absolutely nothing to indicate that the rank and file Tea Partiers are breaking ranks with their judas goats, their puppet masters.

Charlene Rush (2)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 12:26 pm
This whole Tea Party Business will become a thing of the past, and occupy a minimal place in our history books.

Trickle-down Economics works only on paper. It may have worked in the past, but, those days are over. We found when the Bushies gave Big Business, such hugh tas breaks, they kept the money and/or sent their business to be done elsewhere. Trick-down was/is not in their vocabulary.

Our tax system is a complete mess. The wealthy do not pay their share. The tax system is loaded with loopholes and tax breaks. Some enormous corporations don't pay any taxes. Wall Street and Big Business would rather put money in the pockets of criminal politicians, than in our national treasury.

As long as this situation continue, WE THE PEOPLE, are really, we the victims; and, as someone once said, "There are no victims, only volunteers", which I honestly believe.

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 2:25 pm
Our government is still under the power of those that pulled the coup on america. The fascist, 4th reich. The media machine will silence any one that dare to call them out. We need a president that will stand up and scream the truth at them on C-span. Let the machine have at it. We'll support that President!

Obama's test was "too big to fail". He ducked calling corporate fascism by name. He failed the people.

Pssst. Barack. You can go on TV any time you want. Going to the Intel plant in Hillsboro wasn't what we wanted.

Norm C (74)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 8:59 pm

Trickle Down has NEVER worked. It gave us the Panics of 1873, 1883, 1893, and 1910. It gave us the Great Depression. It gave Britain the world of Charles Dickens. It gave the Dutch the Tulip balloon. It gave the Portuguese and Spanish economic disasters. It gave Latin America disaster after disaster.

The only thing that works is Bubble Up.

Sheryl G (363)
Saturday February 19, 2011, 9:02 pm
The only thing that trickled down was yellow.......and in polite company we call it urine. Enjoy.

Lori K (56)
Wednesday February 23, 2011, 8:51 pm
People are so stupid it's pathetic. The Bush republican administration destroyed our economy, and now people are voting for more of the same because Democrats could not fix in 2 years what Bush took 8 years to F up.

Susan V (80)
Thursday March 15, 2012, 11:04 am
Please sign my petition about this issue in Florida - and NC is planning to do the same says Move on.

Thanks, Susan

Sheryl G (363)
Thursday March 15, 2012, 8:56 pm
Signed Susan V. I'm from Florida and the idiots who voted for this man need their heads examined. He is a crook, a known crook, and still people voted him in. I'd say, the people get what they deserve by voting him in but the rest of us who didn't certainly deserve better.
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