Thursday November 5, 2009, 9:57 am
Okay hnting to me just sucks and I dont condone it, but the reality of it all is this. Humans its us we are destroying the grasslands and woodlands of all animlas by are pursut of larger ranches homes businesses and such. So whats happens to the deer and all wildlife??? Where is to go??? Really think about it think real hard. How can we stop this from happening??? You know that big fancy house you so want in the country dont buy it thats a start. Unitl we get our land grabbing greed done with hunting WILL continue wheter we like it or not. We are the ones diminishing the lands that once gave them the freedom to not be hunted as they are today. So put pity on the hunter to a point listen to what I say. For if they didnt hunt yes the deer and others would starve they would no question about it. Think about and dont get your emotions all caught up in the title. Yes wolves are a great advisary to weeding out the sick, but there are too many humans that are wanting thier deaths, why casue humans are moving once again into thier territories with domesticated livestock...so we are the problem maybe not all of it but we are. Remember I dont condone the killing of any animal whatsoever...but you see I take the time to see all around me...this is what we should all do. Slow down and see the bigger picture...see how your cities are growing..the population is up and the bigget loosers in all of this are the animals we are stiving so hard to save.

Big Gorilly hUgs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:11 am
I agree with you so much, I gave you a green star. huting should be illegal.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:21 am
Yes it should, but it is a necessary evil we will have to deal with until us the humans make the changes for their NATURAL survival. No I am NOT in the least bit taking up for hunters in no way shape or form...Im for the dumbass humans to quit being so greedy and forcing these animals off thier lands...This is what Im for. Live and Let Live is how it should be....Hunters dont kill the sick or starving the kill the young stags and prime does.....This is what I hate. You gonna kill then kill the starving and the sick, but them on no you wont that beautiful head or that yummy meat sitting in your fridge...It really makes me sick. All becasue of us...I know Im part of it we have alot of land cultivated into crop fields so no trees to which the deer can hide or thickets so they can sleep its all plowed land except for the 100 acres we have in the forsest preserve..that is for our deer untouched. But how many of you have vast properties or bought new homes in the country??? Then yes you are part of it too wether we want to admit it or not...sad huh but the reality is so there.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:22 am

I come from a family of hunters -- ya know, the kind of men who can't remember their children's birthdays, but always know what game is in season. Just like a scene from "The Deerhunter," each Sunday evening, men would return, after a weekend out with their buddies, with the lucky ones having a deer strapped to the hood of their cars.

Even as a child, I never understood the fairness of a bunch of men, lurking in the woods, drinking beer and bonding, while waiting for their unsuspecting prey to innocently forage, then taking out shotguns to kill them. (How is THAT a sport??? And, mind you, none of these guys really needed the animals for food to survive.)

Until we train and arm the animals to defend themselves, I will continue to believe that it's a sick, inhumane excuse for cruelty.

Thanks for this, Gorilly!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:27 am
LMAO....yes they do forget birthdays they do indeed...LOL Many a times I have came home to a Buck mind you hanging from our basketball goal and it always made me sick...I hated it I hated it so bad. I still loved my dad but I didnt like what he did. And really after awhile I think he finally understood and when he would go hunting he was always bad and NEVER brought anything home again...he always said he didnt see anything but I think in his older age and the way I was with animals it finally turned him off to hunting and I think he sat mostly in the trees just enjoying them at the end.

Gorilly

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:36 am
I agree with you too, Gorilly, but trying to outlaw hunting is going to be a huge upheavel!! I hope we can do it...Save Our Forest Animals!! S.O.F.A. Get up off your "S.O.F.A." and do something!!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:38 am
More importanlty quit buying up all the vacant lands that they live on...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:45 am
Thanks Gorilly Girl

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:49 am
I can't agree more. I think the only reason man should kill an animal is for food and only when necessary. As it is, I feel bad that I freeze chicken and fish for later convenience, even though I seldom eat meat. The whole concept of how we hunt animals for sport, farm them in horrible conditions for consumption and the grossness of fat bodies from overconsumption of these animals is disturbing and seems evil.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:50 am
Oh Gorilly I wish I wish I could send you more green stars

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:52 am
I live in a town of hunter-types. Last week I got to hear how the friend of a friend got her first buck, and how her boyfriend had told her to "get the big one" in the herd of young males. SO opposite to how animals hunt. Made me sick. I have to say that I feel our tribal friends have the right to feed their families, and they also do ceremonial hunts which are often used feed their elders, but the rest of us need to recycle, compost, and appreciate what we have before the gift of this earth turns into a giant trashcan that none of us can survive in. Thank you Gorilly-you rock!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:55 am
Outlawing hunting I fear will take a millenia...I think the only way it will stop is when all are just dead....

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:58 am


every day... more pain comes to the ANIMALS and CREATURES of Our EARTH.
to the FOWL... to those of Our SEAS...
YES to ALL the CREATURES WE OWE CARE TO... no question.
they are WRONGED and though PRECIOUS... are truly VIOLATED.

*sighs*

I will have to return here another day... this ORDEAL the EARTH is suffering by VICTIMIZATIONS and that the CREATURES anguish in... both the fault of PEOPLE! No doubt! Some of us CARE... others are the problem... and don't kid yourselves they will NEVER cease to BE the problem... they DELIGHT THEMSELVES in DESTROYING what they know full well they ought not.


I THINK ON THIS MATTER EVERY DAY. CONTINUALLY.
SOLUTIONS COME... and APPLYING THEM will ARRIVE with SUCCESS.
!

Gorilly... it is GOOD to come up with Solutions as you say... STOP.
STOP exploiting Our GREAT EARTH leaving so little of Her... in Good Status!

I hear Your anguish...same as is mine...and others here.
SAME as is Our EARTH's and every CREATURE. AS IS to Our SUN...
and ALL UNIVERSE TOO along with every person of any merit... WE CARE.

the day will COME...Our DREAM A REALITY...no more of these terrorists.
A MOST EXCELLENT DAY.
!

Have FAITH in Love for Love TRULY HAS AUTHORITY.
!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:00 am
Right now all the deer on Robben Island are being killed (just off Cape Town, South Africa). And all the rabbits are being killed as well. And all the feral cats are being trapped and re-located. WHY?

Because Cape Nature Conservation introduced foreign animals onto this tiny island and then mismanaged it so completely that there are tens of thousands of animals starving to death there - right now.

Mankind always STUFFS UP and the animals pay the price.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:04 am
Boy, the article gave every excuse under the sun, even utilized moral grounds, for the justification of hunting down an animal. But once all the reasons for hunting have all been sifted through, it boils down to one reason and one reason only...the thrill of the kill...

Our primal leanings to lead a life as top predator is still evident in some among us.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:06 am
IN THE "OLDE TYMES" folks hunted to EAT.....And EVERY PART of the kill was used....Native Americans even used the animals STOMACH as a "water carrier"....Now MOST HUMANS HUNT FOR SPORT....For BRAGGIN' RIGHTS.....as in "I dropped the biggest/baddest/meanest/most rare/elusive etc...."And if "whatever" is utilizing SPACE WE WANT/NEED[at least in our OWN eyes]...Then it is fair game to be killed.....
MY ATTITUDE....Save ANIMALS and HABITAT..KILL ROBBERS/RAPISTS/PEDOPHILES...

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:06 am
Thannxxx Gorilly Girl... no pot shots at you sweetie... I think hunting is barbaric and much like murder, it is just that they get away with it.. preying on defenceless animals by surprise is cowardly and hunting serves no purpose whatsoever.. it is an egotistical mindset, that needs to be changed...

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:06 am
Didnt it though Bruce...It really makes me sick.

Big gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:13 am
Welllllllll ya never know...I just wish if your gonna hunt the laws should be change to meet certian criteria's...I just hate it. I understand to a point why it is still happening but come on it needs to end. Maybe if more got hurt it would be considered dangerous and they would outlaw it...LOL Thats an idea...LOl

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:18 am
Good comment, Bruce. It's an aggressive, cowardly activity which is rooted in American society. It's why we decimated Native American tribes, made slaves of Africans and brought them to this country to build America, it's why we create "boogey men" and claim they are terrorists, and it's why we start illegal wars and kill millions of innocent people.

Until America comes to terms with its lack of compassion and respect for all living things...hatred of oneself...we will continue to operate like Lizard Brains. The killing must stop!!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:22 am
.. Empathy for and understanding of one or more species of animals that many of us share, makes us ambassadors for these species, and gives us the strength to fight for their rights. Together, we can make a difference in their lives

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:28 am
Oh, and by the way, hunters who use lead shot not only contaminate their own food, they are a chief reason other animals in the wild die slow horrible deaths from lead poisoning. It's been removed from paint, gasoline, and water pipes because it is dangerous, but hunters are eating meat with scattered particles in it. (Maybe it is contibuting to a stereotype of a hunter as being a big dummy?!?) Fish are also showing high lead levels due to remnants dumped in their environment. We are pooping in our nest!!!
Gorilly, people are getting hurt-it is just a slow process, so the powers that be won't act. Greed rules...

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:45 am
Hunters are killers, plain and simple.Hunters try to justify their violent pastime, but whatever they say to the contrary, hunting is the premeditated, cold-blooded killing of innocent animals

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:58 am
New Research Finds Long-Suspected Link Between Hunting and Small Penis Size
nuff said..............

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:02 pm
I'm not getting in to this discussion. I only need to put out the point that some animals needs to be hunted, otherwise they die of starvation. I know this as a certain fact from the small county in Norway where I grew up. Plenty of space for the dears, but not enough food to let them all survive. And I'm not dumping anything on you Gorilly Girl.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:19 pm
No animal needs to be killed unless it is wounded through
some natural cause.
In the killing of any animal for any reason we really are
killing ourselves & the earth. Mother Earth is the only home
we have........It is the natural home to all animals.

Knock on wood-Plant trees for life......................

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:19 pm
Gotta add a note.....If these "BIG HUNTERS" truly want a THRILL....HOW ABOUT an ULTIMATE HUNT?????Why don't THEY GO SOMEPLACE-LOCK THEMSELVES IN-AND HUNT EACH OTHER?????The ULTIMATE THRILL.....PREY AS SMART[or dumb]AS EACH OF THEMSELVES....Armed with nothing but a small knife???


Can you see a BEAR hunter out in the cold with nothing but a small pocket knife expecting to "drop" the "trophy"????No clothes-GPS-compass-matches-heated blind-tree stand-Oh YEAH-DON'T forget your BRAGGIN' BUDDIES and THE BEER!!!!!!!!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:20 pm
LAMARTINE:
''Eines Tages hatte ich bei der
Jagd einen englischen Übersetzungssband
des Sanskrits mitgenommen. Ein schuldloses
und glückliches Reh sprang aus
Freude in die von dem Tau durchnässten
Feldthymian am Rand eines Waldes.
Ich erspähte es ab und zu über die Halme der
Erika, mit dem Horn stoßend,
den Strahl riechend, seinen lauen Pelz unter
der Morgensonne erwärmend,
die junge Sprösse grasend, sich an seiner
Einsamkeit erfreuten…
Ich war ein Jägersohn. Ich hatte noch nie
über diesen brutalen Instinkt
des Mensches nachgedacht, der aus dem Tot
eine Vergnügung macht und der
Leben beraubt, ohne Notwendigkeit, ohne
Gerechtigkeit, ohne Erbarmen und
ohne Recht; Tiere, die, auf ihn das gleiche
Jagd- und Totrecht hätten wenn
sie so unsensibel, so bewaffnet und so
reißend in ihrem Spaß wären, wie
er. Mein Hund wachte, mein Gewehr war unter
meiner Hand; ich behielt das
Reh im Visier meiner Flinte. Eine gewisse
Reue, ein gewisses Zaudern
empfand ich ,ja, ein solches Leben, eine
solche Freude, eine solche
Unschuld in einem Wesen, das nie etwas böses
gemacht hatte, das das
gleiche Licht, den gleichen Tau, die gleiche
Frühwonne wie ich genoss ;
ein von dem gleichen Schicksal geschaffenes
Sein, vielleicht von
unterschiedlichem Niveau, aber von der
gleichen Empfindlichkeit und dem
gleichen Denken wie ich; vielleicht von der
gleichen Zuneigung und
Anverwandschaft wie ich selbst in diesem
Wald; seinen Bruder suchend, von
seiner Mutter erwartet, von seiner Gefährtin
erhofft, von seinen Kleinen
gehört. Aber der mechanische Instinkt der
Gewohnheit hat über die Natur,
deren Ermordung er widerstrebt, gesiegt. Der
Schuss wurde abgegeben. Das
Reh fiel herunter, die Schulter von der
Kugel gebrochen, in seinem
Schmerz auf dem mit seinem Blut befleckten
Gras vergebens hüpfend.
Nachdem der Rauch aufgelöst worden war,
näherte ich mich blass werdend und
von meinem Verbrechen zitternd: das arme und
liebreizende Tier war nicht
tot. Ich schaute es an, der Kopf hingelegt
auf dem Gras, mit
tränengefüllten Augen. Ich werde nie diesen
Blick vergessen, in welchem
das Erstaunen, der Schmerz, der unerwartete
Tot so wiedergespiegelt
waren;dessen Gefühle menschlicherTiefe so
vernehmbar waren wie Wörter:
weil wenn das Feuer in den Augen erlischt,
diese beginnen, zu sprechen.
Dieser Blick sagte mir eindeutig, mit einem
herzzereißendem Vorwurf meiner
grundlosen Grausamkeit: wer bist Du? Ich kenn
Dich nicht; ich habe Dich
nie beleidigt; ich hätte Dich vielleicht
geliebt. Warum hast Du mich
totgeschlagen? Warum hast Du mir meinen Teil
von Licht, von Luft, von
Jugend, von Freude und von Leben entrissen?
Was werden meine Mutter, meine
Brüder, meine Gefährtin werden, meine Kinder
die auf mich in dem Strauch
warten und die von mir nur diese von dem
Schuss verstreuten Haarbüsche und
diese Blutstropfen auf der Erika sehen
werden? Gibt es da oben keinen
Rächenden für mich oder keinen Richter für
Dich? Dennoch beschuldige ich
Dich und verzeihe ich Dir;
es gibt keine Wut in meinen Augen, da meine
Art zart ist, sogar gegen
meinen Mörder. Es gibt nur Erstaunen,
Schmerz, Tränen.
Das war wörtlich das, was mir der Blick des
verletzten Rehs sagte. Ich
verstand ihn und beschuldige mich als ob es
mit mir gesprochen hätte.
„Erlös mich von meinem Leiden“ schien es mir
noch mal durch das Ächzen
seiner Augen und die zwecklosen Bewegungen
seiner Körperglieder zu sagen.
Ich wollte ihn um jeden Preis heilen, ich
nahm wieder aus Mitleid meine
Flinte und beendete wegschauend seine Agonie
mit dem zweiten Schuß. Aus
Abscheu warf ich das Gewehr weit von mir weg
und dieses Mal muss ich
zugeben, dass ich weinte. Mein Hund selbst
ließ sich anscheinend
erweichen, er bewegte nicht die Leiche mit
der Schnauze, stattdessen lag
er sich traurig neben mich hin.

Wir drei blieben in der Stille, wie in der
Trauer des Totes. [...]



LAMARTINE, Questions sur Dieu, le bonheur et
l’éternité''

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:24 pm
Here is a good little read......Truly worth sharing:

Grand Canyon
You ever been to the Grand Canyon?
Its pretty, but thats not the thing of it.
You can sit on the edge of that big ol’
thing and those rocks… the cliffs and
rocks are so old… it took so long for
that thing to get like that… and it
ain’t done either! It happens right
there while your watching it. Its happening
right now as we are sitting here in
this ugly town. When you sit on the edge
of that thing, you realize what a joke we
people really are… what big heads we
have thinking that what we do is gonna
matter all that much… thinking that our time
here means didly to those rocks.
Just a split second we have been here,
the whole lot of us. That’s a piece of time
so small to even get a name.
Those rocks are laughing at me right now,
me and my worries… Yeah, its real humorous,
that Grand Canyon.
Its laughing at me right now.
–Simon, Grand Canyon 1991

If man were just a bit dumber he would
be a whole lot smarter in the long run!

Knock on wood-Plant trees for life.......................

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:31 pm
I know Florida was thinking of giving a tax break to those who bought existing homes in Florida, or to add a surcharge onto a new home built, this was to slow down the new home construction that would just take huge tracts of land and cut and burn everything down to the ground.
I have since moved from there so do not know if it went through or passed, but I thought it was a good incentive to get people to buy existing homes as you have spoken on Gorilly.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:51 pm
Arild hey I know where your comming from...this I know. Like I said before hunting wether we like it not is a necessary evil we have ALL brought upon them...none of us here are richeous enough to say we are perfect none of us are. We have all bought or sold a home wether it been a new developement or an old one...its still the same no matter how you look at it. It was land taken from the animlas and homes built for our pleasures..Yes I dont condone hunting but are the ones that have helped this along..think about it...its true.

Big gorilly Hugs

And yes Dandelion it is better to buy an older home than to purcahse that brand new one one newly developed lands...

Just gives yall something to think about...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:57 pm
noted thank you

Thursday November 5, 2009, 12:58 pm
i wish hunting was outlawed great post gorrily

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:04 pm
Well, the big problem with the justifications for hunting is that the hunters don't do us or the animal populations any service - no good, only evil. They hunt on PUBLIC lands, not their own private land usually. They don't take the sick or the old or the weakest (like wolves do), they take the big strong ones who should be left to mate. They don't use all the parts as Native Americans did, they take trophies because they have psychological problems and killing is how they compensate.

They put others who are trying to enjoy PUBLIC lands in danger. They lobby against the rest of us so they can keep Mooching and Freeloading off Our taxes on PUBLIC lands, so they can keep hunting and trapping. They want the wolves killed so they have more animals to kill, and then they want to kill the wolves themselves too. Are there sometimes too many deer for the grasslands or too little grasslands for the deer? Maybe, but no hunter has ever been concerned for a minute with conservation. No hunter cares about the future. There are too many animals for the grasslands for two reasons: new development like Gorilly points out, and freeloading, mooching ranchers who leech off our PUBLIC lands for their grazing animals like cattle. If we boot the freeloading ranchers off PUBLIC lands permanently, we'd have much more grassland for deer and elk and moose and wild horses and other critters. If we stop new development on open lands (we mostly don't have the water to do it anyway, but Americans are too shortsighted and greedy to care), we'd have more grassland available too. Then we wouldn't need any hunters at all and no excuses would do.

Yes, sometimes animal populations get too large, but it's not the norm unless we're pushing them back so the freeloading ranchers can mooch off tax paid PUBLIC lands. Sometimes old or injured animals die a slow death as a part of the cycle of life. None of that has anything to do with the emotionally deficient people who consider blood a part of sport and who need trophies to prove there (admittedly small) value to the world. Sheesh. YUK.

People who hunt responsibly on private land, who use all the meat, who never leave wounded animals behind, who don't take females or youngsters, who never put others in danger, who aren't out there drinking and acting like criminals/frat boys, and who hunt because that's what they have learned to eat all their lives - OK, fine. I can deal with that because we have to be fair. Blood sport, trophy hunting, party hunting - that ought to get people committed for psychological evaluations. My 3 cents.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:25 pm
Going out hunting, gonna get a big'un, yes siree I am!!! Only thing is, getting a big healthy one is just how the gene pool is affected. A few years down the line there will not be a big healthy one because someone killed the big "Granddaddy" and that was the end of the line.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:27 pm
"People who hunt responsibly on private land, who use all the meat, who never leave wounded animals behind, who don't take females or youngsters, who never put others in danger, who aren't out there drinking and acting like criminals/frat boys, and who hunt because that's what they have learned to eat all their lives - "

-----------------------------------------
Is there such a hunter?? maybe one out of ten thousand! MAYBE!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:39 pm
Why anyone enjoys hunting, I will never understand. I don't think regular hunting will ever be outlawed but I would like to see "canned" hunts outlawed.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:40 pm
Yes I agree John one in millions...For you never know even on your own property where a bullet will stray....Have seen this happen before...Our cabin has proof of it.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:42 pm
Canned Hunts are not hunts if you ask me they are a overside shooting arcade with live animals...all needs to be done away with.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:42 pm
Ditto I agree GG - would you say "its a necessary evil"??? Love & Light to All

Thursday November 5, 2009, 2:18 pm
A translation of Gerold Fahrer's post:

LAMARTINE:
''One day I had at the
Hunting an English Übersetzungssband
Sanskrit taken. An innocent
deer jumped up and happy
Joy in the wet from the dew
Thyme at the edge of a forest.
I spied it off and on the stalks of
Erika, pushing the Horn
the beam-smelling, warm fur under his
the morning sun warming,
The young Sproesser browsing, at its
Loneliness enjoyed ...
I was a hunter's son. I had never
about this brutal instinct
human thought, consisting of the Dead
makes one pleasure and the
Deprived of life, without necessity, without
Justice without mercy, and
without right; animals that, for him the same thing
Hunting and Totrecht if they had
them so insensitive, so armed and so
tearing their passion would be like
he. My dog woke up, my gun was under
my hand, I kept the
Deer in the sights of my gun. A certain
Repentance is a certain hesitation
I felt, yes, such a life, a
Such joy, such a
Innocence in a creature that never bad
had made, that the
same light, the same rope, the same
Frühwonne as I enjoyed;
a created from the same fate
Being, perhaps by
different levels, but by the
same sensitivity and the
same as I thought, perhaps by the
same affection and
Anverwandschaft like myself in this
Forest, searching for his brother,
expects his mother, and his companion
hopes of its children
heard. But the instinct of the mechanical
Habit has on nature,
whose murder he resists, won. The
Shot being fired. That
Deer fell down from the shoulder of the
Ball, breaking his
Pain on the stained with his blood
Grass leaping in vain.
After the smoke had been dissolved,
I approached becoming pale and
trembling of my crimes: the poor and
winsome animal was not
dead, and I looked at it, his head laid
on the grass, with
tear-filled eyes. I'll never these
Look forget what
amazement, the pain of unexpected
So Tot reflected
were, whose feelings are so deep human
were heard as words:
because if the fire goes out in the eyes,
they begin to speak.
This look told me clearly, with a
reproach of my heart-rending
gratuitous cruelty: who are you? I know
Do not, I love you
never offended, I had you perhaps
loved. Why do you love me
killed? Why You gave me my share
of light, air, by
Youth, of joy and life rescued?
What will my mother, my
Are brothers, my companion, my children
on me in the bush
and wait for me only those from the
Weft hair scattered shrubs and
these drops of blood on the watch Erika
be? Is there no top
Avenging for me or any judge
You? However, I blame
You and I forgive you;
There is no anger in my eyes, my
Nature is delicate, even against
my murderer. There's only surprise
Pain and tears.
That was literally what the look of me
injured deer said. I
understand him and accuse me as if it
I have spoken with.
"Proceeds from my suffering," it seemed to me
again by the groans
his eyes and purposeless movements
to speak of his limbs.
I wanted to heal him at all costs, I
My back was out of pity
Gun and ended his agony to look away
with the second shot. Out
Disgust I threw the gun away from me
and this time I have
to admit that I cried. My dog even
was apparently
to soften it did not move the body with
the snout, instead, was
he is sadly out beside me.

We three remained in silence, as in the
Mourning of the dead. [...]

LAMARTINE, Questions sur Dieu et le bonheur
l'éternité''

=========================================

What a sad story about a shooter who briefly realizes he does not want to kill the animal. After shooting, but not killing it, the animal's eyes show no hate as it lay dying. This moment lives with the shooter who knows he has made a big mistake toward life. Thank you, Gerold.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 2:29 pm
f------------------- made me bawl.....

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 3:28 pm
Simple question to the so called hunting conservation movement: If you were not allowed to hunt the fruits of any conservation that you carry out would you still conserve it? Of course we know the answeer to that from the UK foxhunting model In foxhunting circles conservation simply means restcocking by breeding foxes when they are running out and then justifying the hunting of the fox as vermin in much the same maanner as some of the current wolf hunting another animal that is not eaten I believe! As for hunting to survive there are very few places that have been comlpletey bypassed by modern living methods apart from some very remote indegenous populations whose hunting activities may be justified on the basis of need and the absence of any other living arrangements! However the vast majority of sport hunters are equipped with such an array of expensive hunting equipment rifles and 4x4s etc that they can hardly be described as cash needy souls, putting dinner on their in some noble emulation of the famed Linconlshire poacher! The justifications that have come from some hunters regarding the wolf describing it in the same way UK foxhunters describe their quarry as vermin, the real motivation is the wolf or fox might prey on something they also want but unlike their animal competitors don't need! Flock predation is another old chestnut with gangs of delinquent wolvs decimating sheep flocks or in the case of foxes flocks of chicken or even more annoying to the rich UK hunters their specially bred and artificially introduced pheasants etc. Conservation is not the right word for mass producing animals or birds to simply put it in a place to chase it or shoot it out of the sky. It is just a word when used in the context of hunting support infrastructure! As for the specious psychological mumbo jumbo to justify a piss up in the woods killing something and then dragging it back on your bonnet/hood it is simply a bloody game of one sided warfare much the same as Americas foreign policy and military interventions abroad! It is very doubtful hunters would continue to hunt if their prey were armed as them! creeping about in cammo gear and killing from a distance is a very detached and cowardly activity that serves no purpose other than to massage the perpetrators ego especially when it involves hanging parts of the animal on their lounge room wall like some sort of grotesque serial killers colection of body parts and that is were the psychology would appear to be most useful in addressing this killing addiction for that is surely what hunting for no jsutifiable purpose is! I cannot condone the activity but I have more respect for the hunter who says they enjoy killing than those that try and dress it up as something "educational" or "beneficial " to wildlife or any of the other myriad of excuse for it's continuance at least the hunter who enjoys it on that level of bloodlust is being honest with themselves! However it has to be said the same justifiers of hunting are often the detractors of global warming or clean engine technology or any thing else that might impinge on their ability to hunt and destroy nature! Ironically the same people will only be satisfied when the whole of the planet has been concreted over by urban encroachment and sprawl leaving no one to do the work and no wild life to hunt!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 3:56 pm
I have had friends who hunt. i have heard thier stories and talk. hunting is simply a way to get off on killing an animal. it is a way to come back bragging about the one you caught, or almost caught. it is disgusting, unnessary, and barbaric.

this article is about a bunch of monsters trying to make what they do seem ethical and ok.

it is simply wrong.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 4:00 pm
Big Gorilly Hugs back to you. It is also the raccoons and beavers and the small animals that are also being left with no land. It is a viscious cycle-but you are right-if less people are demanding homes in the country which then becomes a subdivision-it would be better for the animals....Thank you-it has made me think-the solutions wont be easy but eventually it will come--but sadly probably not in our life-time. Maybe if we stopped producing children-we would need less homes in the country--LOL--just kidding.....

Thursday November 5, 2009, 4:01 pm
This article is scary. It makes many unsubstantiated statements such as "we are wired to hunt". It says hunting is sacred. Creepy

Thursday November 5, 2009, 4:12 pm
Thank you Liz this is the point I was trying to make housing..Developments, Mega malls, Super Walmarts it all plays a part in the hunting situation. In which we, us, most of us on care2 ARE apart of...We shop at these places we buy these new homes, eat at these restraunts and so much more that we forget WE ARE part of this problem wether you think so or not. We are the blame for the hunting not all of it but yes we are a signficant part of it. Give back nature her land quit supporting the cause. No Im not quackers...LOL I just see deep into things and what they are....hunters are bad i know but we made them....

Yes quit having so many dang kids too...lol

Michael yes scary indeed...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 5:05 pm
Excellent post, GG, and I would like to add to the fact, of razing of the mighty trees, and pristine environments for wildlife who must live somewhere, and try to cross a highway to get to the other side, and get killed on the road. Case in point, however, is the 'hunters' paradise of Wakulla Springs, FL where the investors want to build homes on the land that it so comforting to the wildlife there. Who needs a house to build, or a highway to be made, when the hunters go into the thin forests to stalk, and kill deer, coyotes, wolves, and other life in the woods?? For WHAT? So that they may take a head, and put on their wall? Where oh, pray tell, is the comfort in that? My father used to hunt, and I wouldn't talk to him for weeks during deer season, it bothered me as a child then, and bothers me still at my ripe old age. I agree very strongly with many here on this forum, that hunting is not humane, but hunters are born into hunter families. (NOT mine)!!! Canned hunting, is the worse kind of cruelty imaginable. We are living in an age where money talks, and malls and upscale homes are a must. And yes, Gorilly, we are all, as a human race, guilty of our creature comforts, and wants. Thank you so much for your insight, as well as all comments written. Makes one think, doesn't it? I know I do.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 5:33 pm
thanks Gorilly i wish also we could out law hunting.i grew up with a hunter,my oldman hunted anything that could walk, fly or crawl.the big difference with him is he used everything to feed the family.i never knew bout beef or store bought meats,or tasted them till i was 12 years old!he even took me with him once when i was 13and i bout blew me foot off.i don't like hunting,but unfortunately man has made it an necessairy evil.we've taken so much of there habitant away that to leave them totally as Mother Nature would have them leaves them to starve.there are still people who hunt to live,unfortunately the majority hunt to kill!!go thru the i'm gonna go out wid my dad and kill something,then i'll be a man.i don't have the answers. i do know to get hunting outlawed will take more than our life time,sadly. and as for stopping people from buying the land anf the big homes in the country,well unfortunately ,people think there owed these things ,cause they worked for them,by being good lil cororate citizens all there life ,and working and towing the linewe try,and we shall continue to try to work for the betterment of our fellow animals on this beautiful planet ,that we are slowly destroying,poluting and ravishing.but until man gets over his need to kill,to see blood fly and flow,it's an up hill battleuntil man overcomes his need to see something die and bleed , we'll have to continue the uphill struggle.but you know ,for me,there is one thing that has come out of all that crap,it's just sad that it takes so much death to do it,i have met some of the most wonderful,aweinspiring people on,thru here that i've ever had the pleasure to know..and i get a warm feeling where me heart is ,when i think of them as my friends!!
thanks Gorilly and all the rest,who try day after day to make a difference !!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 5:36 pm
Gorilly girl, I will never Jump your"shit" we all have our tings we absolutely care about, i absolutely understand, been jumped many times.. as an american, speech is free!!!!!! no matter what.. love ya, baby,
~Kristen

Thursday November 5, 2009, 5:50 pm
WXCELLENT POST.
hUNTING STINKS.I always get sick when they "open" hunting season! Saying it controls populations. Ugh Grrr. Many interestinf posts above.
Green stars for U Gorilly my friend!!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 5:59 pm
thanks noted and agreed

Thursday November 5, 2009, 7:01 pm
I just love it when someones says "We need to hunt to keep the deer(or whatever animal) population down.
Jeez!!!!, could it be that there are so many Deer because we have killed off all the predators????
Kiil them wolves......Kill that Puma. Why does the human race have such a need to kill???? Sometimes it just scares me the mentality of so many people. We have lost the balence need to keep our world in order.
Seems to me that killing things has not worked, maybe now we can try not killing and see how that goes.
Thanks Gorilly for the great thought producing post.............I bet your inbox has been full !!!!!
A huge hug, Daphna

Thursday November 5, 2009, 7:10 pm
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....LOL Not bad not bad at all....I forwarned....LOL

Big Gorilly Hugs

Thursday November 5, 2009, 7:40 pm
Thanks Gorilly Girl! A great article about an important issue to our wildlife! I hate hunting, too!!!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 8:30 pm
JennyLynn, do you know what happens to ranches when ranchers are not allowed to make a living, including not allowed grazing rights on public lands? Yes, they get subdivided, unless they have some special features that prompt conservation groups to buy them, thus promoting the very problem that Gorilly Girl is pointing out. Large landholdings like ranches and some governmental installation are execellent wildlife habitats.

I don't understand your comment Marion. Hunting ( or is it the thrill of the kill?) has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any of the things you mentioned. America has no lack of compassion, or respect for living things. There are individuals who lack compassion, some of them hunt, some of them don't.

I personally don't like to kill things, ok, certain insects are an exception, but I don't have a problem with hunters in general. Humans are predators, we all are descended from hunters, and there hasn't been time enough yet for evolution to take that trait out of all of us.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 9:38 pm
Up front I have to state I am against "sport" "hunting", and I wonder how these two words can ever be correctly put together!? Sport is one thing hunting is a whole different thing. After reading the article, my main thought was "what lengths people will go to justify they idea". If you need to hunt to survive, which I doubt any of the "hunters" who go out in season do, then I might understand it. At the rate "hunters" are going these days, we won't have to worry about culls and the like.

A good example of the future folly of hunting and land management, is the "hunt" going on now in Idaho and Montana against the wolves. We barely got them back in sustainable numbers, and the guns are out there already. It seems we will never learn our lesson in regards to animals and their indiscriminate killing. No wonder so many animals are going extinct or near extinction, it seems we have this built in gene that says "there are one or two extra wolves, bears, etc. time to go hunting!

Lync

Thursday November 5, 2009, 9:44 pm
A hunter has this false sense of power whe he holds a rifle. No one has a chance against a rifle. So, this is not a fair sport. Sport to me should not be "Blood spilled"

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:21 pm
In less than 60 days it will be 2010, and this "primal" drive to hunt, should be outgrown by now, in the human race, but this is just my humble opinion. great comments..much love..namaste

Thursday November 5, 2009, 10:59 pm
great responses ..thanx to all of you who show compassion..
Hunting duck, deer, wolves, seals, animal factory farms, dolphins culls, fur farms, etc etc etc.. are all justified by our societies and our govts...If we would all turn vegetarians, and pay more attention to what we buy wouldnt there be less excuses for these sadistic acts?. (just a thought)

Thursday November 5, 2009, 11:33 pm
Hunting is a very extreme form of bullying. Bullies hunt for victims to torment. They hunt for ways to hurt people and animals. And it's for fun. Hunters do it for sport. No one needs to hunt for food today. If you do, you should be applying for food stamps. You all know about Anaconda, the giant snakes? They can swallow a man whole. A school of piranha fish can rip the flesh off a human in 5 seconds. What I'm saying is, we can become the hunted someday. Then the bragging hilbillies will come out of their shacks, begging for mercy. There are people who now beg for mercy from killers, rapists, terrorists...they are hunters. A hunter is a neanderthal who seeks prey. There is nothing to analyze. I notice always, everything gets analyzed and justified. A HUNTER SEEKS PREY. THAT'S ALL IT'S ABOUT. Look, there are 365 apples that grow on an apple tree every year. And 52 pints of almonds grow on an almond bush every year. The universe has put our food here. I am sure there are other foods that correspond with seasons, places and human conditions. Hunting, guns, neanderthals, give it up already.

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:40 am
Sorry, I just can’t accept that in current times there is any instinctive need for man to be satisfied by the hunting of wild animals.

The need for the people who choose to eat meat has been satisfied from the time domestication of cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry began, a long, long time ago.

I don’t object to pest species (introduced) being hunted here in Australia including, rabbits, foxes, feral cats, water buffaloes, camels and feral dogs. These exceptions are in plague proportions and wreak havoc on our natural environment, destroying the habitat and prey on our unique defenceless native species

Hunting cannot be justified by the stupid statements in the article claiming it “satisfies a psychological need, as beings we are programmed or designed to be hunters, we are wired to hunt”. Absolute piffle.

There is to me something worrying about the practice of shooting a magnificent creature of the forest such as a dear, strapping it across your car and making a public display of it. Very creepy and a bit scary.

Personally I find hunting for meat a challenge and must admit to a certain satisfaction when I snag a bargain from the local supermarket.

Yes I would like the opportunity to shoot the creatures of the forest; with a camera.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:24 am
Thank You for this post Gorilly Girl.

Friday November 6, 2009, 5:11 am
It is ludicrous to believe that someone who actively sets out to kill a healthy animal for fun, trophy or profit really cares about wild animals specifically or nature in general. Photographs of smiling hunters posing with their dead victims hardly reflect the kind of “caring” that most normal people relate to.

Friday November 6, 2009, 5:13 am
John I dont beleive it either...yes especially with big ass grins on thier faces...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 5:27 am

Well, John, I can't go that far.

What I noticed, from growing up in a midwestern (Ohio) community of hunters, was that the vast majority of them were good-hearted, hard-working men, very much devoted to their pets and families. There just seemed to be (in their minds) an overall feeling of "human superiority," entitlement and disconnect when it came to animals in the wild.

Much of that, I'm sure, was reinforced by their hunting groups, who were also raised for generations with that same type of thinking. In addition, many of them served in wars; and I've often wondered if the glorification of defense of nation (which personalizes into protection of family), and psychologically rationalizes taking of life, doesn't have something to do with it.

Wow, Gorilly, this post has really turned into a head-scratcher . . . GREAT job!

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:12 am
Trust me I thought long and hard on this one before I posted it. I hate the fact that hunting exists...

But the point I was also trying to point out to everyone is that we all have a hand in in...ALL OF US HERE. You cannot say that you dont. We can all say we hate hunting and wish it would just be banned and I wish it was so, buttttttttt the fact remains we are the cause of hunting. We are. Each one of us at care2 is apart of it. And we are supporting it wether we realize it or not. I dont think anyone can argue that point with me on that. Its about human populations and the destruction of lands all for the sake of homes, businesses, hospitals and so forth. Look around you guys we play a big part in this and have for centuries. Now what are you going to do to stop it?????

BigGorillyHugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:41 am
As long as there are slaugher houses.. hunting will be rational in the minds of those with a blood lust for killing. See? Its all perfecly "rational" in American society. Because if you think the folks that work in slaugherhouses (and he butchers)are not another form of a "HUNTER" then..it is an illusion.

The cow, wet nurse to humanity, has a long history. But cows are invoked as symbols of milk and the feminine; meat is another matter all together. It makes sense that women connect with dairy cattle, whose milk has saved many a human infant. Women have a connection to beef cattle, too, but meat is a more political food. For hunters, obtaining meat and distributing it reflected power. Meat was a masculine possession—in hunting societies. For cattle keepers, things were different.

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:59 am
"Hunting is a very extreme form of bullying. Bullies hunt for victims to torment. They hunt for ways to hurt people and animals. And it's for fun. Hunters do it for sport. No one needs to hunt for food today."

I loved your response, Elizabeth!!

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:07 am
"I don't understand your comment Marion."

Donni...I don't understand your comment either. Apparently others don't understand you either from the many who here who have explained why hunting for sport is wrong. I rarely eat meat and believe many diseases are caused from eating red meat. I don't think you will ever understand my comments. That's okay. Many others do.

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:39 am
Thanks Gorilly...

Guys so many super comments, I need to get my brain in working order to get to this one and maybe add something, but don't personally think I could add anything that has NOT been stated on both sides...

Green Stars should be sent to a TON of you for coming out to weigh in on this one!

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:48 am
Humans have been hunters for most of their existence on this earth. Hunting is recognized as the catalyst that propelled humans into organized civilization many millennia ago. My father hunted, as did his, as did his, etc. for tens of thousands of years.
I love hunting for a variety of reasons. The actual killing of the animal is the least of these. In fact someone who doesn’t feel sadness when the animal is killed is not a true hunter. Our ancestors did not paint the great animals they hunted on the walls of their caves because they hated them. In fact they actually worshipped them, and in truth a real hunter today has many of the same feelings.
Hunters in the USA were among the first active conservationists here (see Teddy Roosevelt for example). Hunters and hunter organizations pushed successfully for animal and environmental conservation including the restricted seasons, licensing requirements, and limits that are in force today. In addition hunters lobbied for the Pittman-Robertson act that levied taxes on ammunition and firearms to be used for conservation and restoration of wildlife and habitats. Later bow hunters themselves pushed to have these same taxes placed on archery equipment to increase the amount of funds available for these purposes.
Other hunter organizations like Ducks Unlimited and Quail Unlimited were formed by hunters to further protect and restore habitat. Ducks Unlimited is largely credited with saving the North American waterfowl populations by buying, leasing, and lobbying for protection of large swaths of crucial waterfowl nesting grounds in the US and Canada. These areas were being drained and cleared for large grain farms primarily. I continued to be amazed by the animosity shown toward hunters here by other so-called environmentalists. If you only realized we are on the same team!
Now on a more personal note, I eat meat therefore I hunt. This is one of the reasons I taught my children to hunt. Kids today are growing up several generations removed from the family farms of our grandparent’s era where you or your neighbor raised their own chickens and livestock for their food. The average child today thinks hamburgers and chicken nuggets come out of the meat machine at Mickey D’s. I wanted my children to know that if they chose to eat meat, they should realize that an animal had to die for that to happen. Meat does not come from a machine.
But in addition to this I wanted them to experience the same things I did growing up in a different time before video games and MTV. The fond memories and invaluable lessons taught me by my father and grandfathers about caring for the land, the habitat, respecting all animals, and the responsibility to perpetuate and care for the wildlife and the environment. This was combined with hours and hours of drilling and instruction on how to be safe with the weapons used. I remember standing in a southern swamp on a frosty morning listening to the dogs baying, my grandfather talking to me about what was going on in the chase of the rabbit, seeing the excitement in his face, and the love he felt for the great outdoors. Man, I miss him and the time we spent together. One of my most cherished possessions is his old Spanish made double-barrel 20-gauge shotgun which sits well-worn but cleaned and oiled in my gun safe waiting for the day that it will be passed on to my children and eventually their children.
I remember when I was in my twenties waking up early almost every Saturday during ruffed grouse season, riding into the NC mountains as the sun was brightening the sky, and feeling the excited anticipation of his beautiful Brittany spaniel wedged between us in the truck. She knew where we were going. We walked those glorious valleys and ridges for many miles each week through crunchy snow and rustling leaves searching for the elusive “thunder chicken” of the eastern mountains. I remember coming across old rock foundations of houses long gone and small family graveyards with the names weathered from the stones. Truly one of the best hunting seasons I have ever experienced. And do you know how many grouse I actually bagged that year? A grand total of ZERO. But what wonderful memories.
Now I am anxiously waiting for Thanksgiving week and the start of another quail and duck season. One of my sons will be coming in from college, other friends and relatives will be coming in from their daily lives, gathering together for a great meal, and then packing up to head for our “hunting camp” down in the lowcountry. Dad will be coming of course. He always wants me to drive him those 4 hours in his truck so we can talk. We will talk about when I was young, he was strong, and others who are now gone walked the woods and fields with us this time of year. There will be tears in both our eyes. Dad can’t actually hunt anymore and no longer even brings a gun along. In fact he has given all but two to his children and grandchildren. He keeps these still because I know in his heart he wants to load them and follow us into the woods again someday, but the reality is he will never shoot these again and too soon they will belong to my brother and me I’m afraid.
Later that day I will be standing in the swamp with my waders on, my 14-year old son beside me. Dad and others too old to join us there will be back at the cabin talking and starting dinner. My son and I will listen to the whistle of the wood duck’s call in the fading light and hope we (he) gets the chance to shoot at one of those streaking rockets. There will be plenty of ducks there as we have spent years building nesting boxes they use to raise their young in the spring and have spent tons of time and money carefully protecting their wetlands from being drained and turned into more soybean fields. Maybe this year he will get his first duck with me beside him as my older two sons did. No matter. We will be making more great memories and perpetuating that honored and ancient pastime for another generation.
So I hunt and will continue to as long as I am able. I respect the fact that most of you don’t. I still can’t understand that you don’t respect that I do, and that I care as passionately as you do about the environment and the animals who share it with us. I do believe that if you ever experienced a hunt with a true hunter and sportsman, you would truly have your eyes opened to what it is really about.

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:51 am
I think most know Marilyn I dont bullpoo around. Im tough but also pretty dang wise to whats going on around me. You just have to see through the transparecy crap that is all around to realize that. Maybe I go a bit deeper in though on things especially this, but they need to be said and heard and listend too. Thing is we made with the help of our govenment and forestry departments hunting seasons in which kills young productive animals...not the old, sick,maimed or dying. The natuarl predators are even gunned down cause of us the human man. So until the expansions of propertys and humans stops Hunting will exist at least until there is nothing left to hunt or we just run out of damn land for them to exist on. Scarey huh.....and it sucks too.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:05 am
Thing is mark the conservation your talking about is the killing of prime animals. You wish to preserve the lands so you can hunt thats the only reason for this type of conservation. You dont kill the old or weak you kill the strong. Why is that??? Men too embarressed to take out the weakest. Instead they take out the stong. Very confusing and very hyprocitical in my humble opinion.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:27 am
Disarees with Mark... humans have NOT always been hunters... they were first GATHERERS. Only with the dicovery of fire,and the abiliy to cook meat (therefore making it more possible to chew and swallow-as humans really don't even have the proper teeth to eat raw meat), did they make the switch from GATHERERS to HUNTERS.

Then,they fondit ws a very easy "product" to sll and trade to other communities.

So? In short humans have NOT alays been hunters (but? they certianly layve been greedy!)

Friday November 6, 2009, 9:58 am
Im sorry Mark but I must disagree. The hunters that I have known do not have fond memories of bonding with Dad and Grandad while hunting. Unfortunately for me--I married into a family of hunters--and all of their relatives and friends were hunters also-so I have known a fair amount of hunters. To all of them--the thrill was the kill. No one needs to kill to eat meat. I wonder if your children are getting the lesson that you are trying to teach them. I personally believe that hunting is beyond cruel-the animals dont have a chance. Hunting season and hunting camps are very disturbing to me. I would not have let my son learn how to kill animals if we had stayed with my ex. In my humble opinion it is just wrong--on every level. but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect the fact that you are entitled to yours and I hope you agree that I am also entitled to mine.Gorilly hugs back girl.

Friday November 6, 2009, 10:42 am
Gorilly the conservation is NOT about the killing of prime animals. I don't deer hunt personally (which I assume you are refering to since I can't imagine what that would mean as far as ducks or quail are concerned) but for example most deer hunters will not shoot a healthy buck unless is has reached at least 4 or more years of age. This deer has mated many times and passed on his genes to his offspring by then. He has reached his full size. You would prefer that they killed younger deer? Deer with spots perhaps? Sure wolves, coyotes and other predators much prefer to bring down the immature deer, elk, caribou, moose as it is safer for them physically and expends less energy. Human hunters, unless starving, don't do this. Are you saying we should? Sure you picture in your mind the wolf pack culling out the elderly and sick animals. They will do this if an opportunity presents itself, but in reality they primarily feed on the young. They would starve by only taking the old as the natural mortality rate of wild animals means that there are many times more young animals and most don't live to be elderly.
Perhaps by "prime animals" you mean taking animals whose loss would negatively affect the population of that species to thrive. Since there is no one with any credibility that can say the North American deer population is not thriving (or any other legally hunted animal in this country for that matter), this is obviously not the case.
And if this were happening the FIRST group to push for changes in the law would be hunters. In my home state for example, wildlife officials recently proposed lengthening the deer seasons in NC. Hunters lobbied loudly against this proposal fearing that it would negatively hurt the deer populations even though the wildlife officials assured them it would not. The non-hunting public of course didn't care one way or the other about the hunting season.
And Nyack you are a little off on that. In fact while we our very distant ancient ancestors were primarily herbivores (as were bear's ancestors), we have been omnivorous since the time the genus Homo evolved. Certainly Homo erectus, as some believe is our direct ancestor, was indeed omnivorous, as were other branches of our ancestoral tree. Humans evolved as omnivores, and soon developed into "cooperative groups", the precursor to civilization, to be able to hunt more effectively and efficiently.

Friday November 6, 2009, 10:52 am

I, personally, am welcoming the comments -- from both sides -- as I feel it is necessary to understand ALL ideologies.

Too often, we tend to demonize those who think differently, the results of such thinking can be seen in the world's consistent engagement in wars and justifications for taking of other (human) lives.

Although it's sometimes hard to do, we should all strive to remember that we are each the sum total of a lifetime of unique experiences.

Respect for all opinions is key to solutions.

Friday November 6, 2009, 11:06 am

Some added clarification:

Even those who've experienced the same circumstances (i.e., siblings), react differently and translate those happenings due to the added complexity of unique "coping skills." We are multi-dimensional beings.

[The above statement does NOT, however, apply to politicians! hehehehehe]

P.S. A little humor goes a long way toward amity.

Friday November 6, 2009, 11:28 am
Mark come you know darn well Im not talking about killing the babies...You should know that now about me...been here long enough for most to know how and what I am for....I stated at the very top I understood why there is hunting and that it is a necessary evil. I also stated that we on care2 are also the cause of hunting...Apparently few have read that. Im am looking at both sides of the pic not just one....and not completley demonizing hunters even though we all know how I really feel....

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:01 pm
I am vegan and oppose hunting. The "Culture of the Hunt" occupies a prominent position in our species' history. Humans, allegedly, have the intellectual capability to eventually recognize that each creature has intrinsic value.

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:09 pm

Ya know, we all come to conclusions at different times. (In fact, I've used that analogy in describing what went wrong with both my marriages: "We just grew at different rates. At one point, we were at the same place."

I'm a different person after becoming a Care2 member than I was 2 years ago, surrounded by animal activists. I've been -- at different times -- reluctant to see how people can value animals above humans; unable to understand why others can't accept humans being omnivores; etc.

But, with time, I've -- at my own speed -- grown to understand the worth to all these ideologies. We all pick and choose our individual rationalizations, based, in large part, to the kindness of those who patiently try to teach us.

I am forever indebted to those who have been most patient and loving with me (and my ignorance).

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:21 pm
Right on Gorilly!!

Men too embarressed to take out the weakest.
Instead they take out the stong. Very confusing and very
hyprocitical in my humble opinion.

Knock on wood-Plant trees for life........

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:23 pm

The film that had the most impact on me, and my thinking, was one gingerly suggested by a dear vegan friend of mine: "Earthlings."

He made no demands of me, other than I watch it.

(Thank you, Jonathan.)

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:32 pm
 
To that end, I (gingerly) suggest that those who feel "superior" in the animal (human-created) hierarchy, at least watch it:
 
Earthlings
 
 

Friday November 6, 2009, 12:45 pm

What I presented was just a trailer, but the point is fairly made: How DARE we subject another creature to such abominations, in order to satisfy our "wants" (not needs)?

Friday November 6, 2009, 1:21 pm
One thing I have found out over the years dealing with the killers is Hunters are notoriously intolerant of anyone who questions their so-called “ethics” or who dares to criticise their violent pastime. Anyone who opposes the killing of innocent animals by hunters is labeled a “bunny-Hugger”, “unrealistic”, “impractical”, “emotional”, “ignorant” even a “terrorist” if you happen to be an animal rightist like me. LOL But I wear my " hunters are Cowards" T-shirt with pride! And NOBODY has said a word to me!

Friday November 6, 2009, 1:30 pm
Mark said
"And Nyack you are a little off on that. In fact while we our very distant ancient ancestors were primarily herbivores (as were bear's ancestors), we have been omnivorous since the time the genus Homo evolved."

Well, Mark, perhaps I am wrong, (you know... one of those stupid females that will never know nearly as much as a man).

I can only tell you about my branch of the homo-sapien family tree. They we unable to chew and digest raw meat (our evolutionary family tree had not yet been gifted with the proper teeth nor intestine to eat meat without fire) AND THEY STILL CANT!

Perhaps you are from the highly superior branch of homo-sapien- The type of super human superior beings that have been able to do everything since the begining of time (with or without fire).

You seem insistant on hunting, and are willing to distort actual evolutionay facts in order to jusify your sport.

Im done with this convo...you know there is a Native American myth, about when you die? you must first face every animal you have met in your life, and the animals determine who crosses the bridge....

Im done.. may you reap what you sow.

Friday November 6, 2009, 1:42 pm
Thanks for that link, Carole. Profound and much to learn from the movie.

John, who would want to mess with you, lol! Seriously, it's simply a matter of awareness and seeing animals as creatures who, like ourselves, have feelings, needs and the right to be respected and live with dignity.

Friday November 6, 2009, 1:58 pm
I was married to a hunter,,,a real hunter. He took only what we NEEDED. Looking back over the last 65 years I see such changes and it is sad. Granted, land can hold and feed only so many wild animals. Building takes more away from animals than anything. Bad hunters and poachers waste meat. Trophy hunters should be outlawed. Many native tribes still have to hunt to survive the winters. They literally live off the land and plant gardens in summer. I don't like to eat wild game but will cook it for everyone else. I can't tell you how much I wish they could stop hunting but they can't and that is the reality of it. Food chain would fall apart, over grazing, starvation (which happens in our state every year and many people feed them and so does the state). I have almost been shot twice as I don't carry a gun or a weapon but find many STUPID people out there thinking they are hunters! My husband would only go home to his reservation when we needed meat and that wasn't often. He worked construction and it goes up and down in the winter. We have no wasted meat as the dogs will get guts or what we can't eat (native dogs as ours were house dogs). Facts are facts. Until you do away with people and stop building , we won't have the land for these animals and that will be our greatest loss. I could spend hours just watching them in the wild. I never tell anyone where I see game and that is my contribution and all I have to offer for them.
We only killed what we ate. We didn't take the biggest "prize" or any young ones. We were after meat, not any ole animal. Yes, men are men but my husband only talked about it when someone else needed meat for the winter but never at home. He grew up eating game meat and that was all the meat they ever got
I can honestly say when I went, I found out just how smart animals are. My husband would go ahead (cause I was too loud, ha ha) and I would see where game had crossed over his tracks between us.. I have seen deer back track. No, don't tell my husband or anyone else. They aren't too helpless once the shooting starts. Canned hunts should be outlawed. I won't condemn anyone that needs the meat and many in this country really do need the meat and fish they catch

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:25 pm
So many great comments here.

Why do we hunt?

A better question might be...why have we stopped doing certain things...or doing them differently?

From the Dark Ages, we stopped allowing barn animals to sleep in the home and we began to wash our hands and bathe regularly because we learned it warded off diseases.

We stopped treating Native Americans badly and stealing their land because they fought back and we learned it was wrong.

Slavery ended because we realized Africans are not animals to use and own (as we had been told), but were human beings who should have equal rights (hard fought for).

Just because we have ALWAYS done something doesn't make it right. A progressive society learns new ways to improve, enhance and make life healthier for humans, animals and the environment by rethinking what needs to change and changing it.

Nyack is correct: Humans have not always been hunters. We started as gatherers of fruit, herbs and grasses. There is a formidable argument that meat eating causes disease, makes us aggressive and less compassionate toward life. Our teeth are made for fruit and grains. It takes less than 30 minutes to digest fruit. It takes 24 hours to digest meat, which sits in the stomach continuing to rot while trying to get digested. 24 hours is enough time for putrid meat to get lodged in pockets of the system where cancer can form. Considering the way animals are farmed in cramped spaces, pumped with antibiotics, while eating GMO corn and pesticide laden food, you best know that crap is transferred into the humans who eat them.

Native Americans hunted and killed only what they needed, thanked the animal for the nourishment and wasted nothing. Unless a person is killing animals for their own food and not wasting it, we are doing immoral acts on animals and killing ourselves in the meantime. This is the karma someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

What goes around, comes around...

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:29 pm

"We stopped treating Native Americans badly and stealing their land because they fought back and we learned it was wrong. "

Huh?

It never stopped, Marion. And man's "superiority" toward minorities and animals didn't either.

If you TRULY felt that was a reality, you wouldn't continue with your posts regarding hatred in the right-wing media.

The worst injustice we can do is to pretend that it no longer exists.

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:36 pm
Um John whips some big ol donkey butt...LOL He does he no takey crap...

But guys really a real hunter doesnt exist anymore...the true hunters are well beyond dead many moons ago....Hunters these day are conventional hunters. A big diffrence to me.

Big gorilly Hgs

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:39 pm

To quote Dennis Kucinich (on a different, but similar, subject):

"Because behind every such deception is the nullification of humanity, the destruction of human dignity, the annihilation of the human spirit, the triumph of Orwellian thinking, the eternal prison of the dark heart of the totalitarian."

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:44 pm

Behind every "hunt" lies an egotistical need to conquer. And every creature conquered becomes a victim.

Until we rid ourselves of this need, we are not "evolved."

And, when we pretend/ignore that the obvious does not exist, WE are the onerous "dumb animals."

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:01 pm
Ok ya got me on this one and I will leave a comment...

Yep, in the OLD DAYS YES we did need to hunt for food, but not lately it is in the stores, I am toally sick about this and would love to get back to where the days were like the Indians!!!

Frankly, I am so upset when my cousin tells me that her husband is going out hunting...Not much hunting going on lately when they have scopes and high power guns...

Totally hurts my heart that these animals are hunted and what the hunters kill are not the right ones (mainly the healthy and leaders), they kill anything they can see that is in their site of fire.

Can't deal with that frankly even though I do have a 20 guage shot gun, when an old boyfriend took me out for phasant (sp) hunting these birds were taken out of a pen thrown in the bush every morning...I was sick to my stomach to what was done!!! These birds were bred to be taken out for slaughter and when my boyfriend did tell me to stuff the bird in his backpack, I was so ill...

The fact that people do hunt deer, and other animals for food is not setting well with me personally, I would rather have the wolves and other animals take care of them....The fact that people have have wolves hunts is totally appalling.

That is my short message on this subject!

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:05 pm

Marilyn, the fact that it hurts you, shows your heart.

((hug))

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:08 pm
Exactly marilyn....High range bullets and rifles, compund bows (I bet my Native bretern would have loved to have had these...LOl), tree stands fancy camo all the comforts of home. Heated socks...LOL I could go on...

Big Gorilly hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:10 pm

Luv your heart, Steph.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:14 pm
"To that end, I (gingerly) suggest that those who feel "superior" in the animal (human-created) hierarchy, at least watch it:

Earthlings "

Thanks very much for the link, Just C.

Please be advised that there are graphic images in this trailer -- I could listen, but what I only glimpsed had me in tears.

Humankind can be truly wicked -- or at least ignorant and desensitized -- to what humans do to animals. I can't believe what is done to sensitive and wonderful animals (which is all of them).

It sickens me that ecosystems - habitats for many wonderful creatures and trees - are destroyed for malls and parking lots. (Some) humans don't know what they are doing to this planet.

imho, humans do a lot of damage shooting or hunting the apex predators -- whether wolves or sharks etc -- for ego or $$. The top predators are vital to the health and biodiversity of ecosystems all the way to the bacteria in the soil.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:15 pm

From what I've learned, from my beloved grandfather, Chief White Cloud (Oneida), and the trusted reference books I've read, I don't believe that Native Americans would have found any honor in taking a God-created life, stalked only for sustenance, with its remnants honored by being put to good use, not waste -- by use of anything more than the minimal "killing implement" -- that also required some skill.

To "overkill" (and not for need) would have violated Native allegiance to honoring life.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:21 pm

Koo, I actually watched the film in its entirety (over an hour and one-half) -- and was, justifiably, ashamed at my own self-induced wanton greed and sense of entitlement.

Although I still am a much-restricted carnivore, I don't think I'll ever eat meat again with such wanton privilege as I once did before viewing it.

(In fact, I am ashamed of myself when I do.)

To make others see it, and question themselves, is a feat.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:25 pm
"To make others see it, and question themselves, is a feat."

yes, indeed, seems to be hard for some to think about animals as sentient beings. (was just thinking about some of the sensitive vege-vores here who might feel upset.)

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:31 pm

I understand completely.

But, with deference to my sensitive vegan/vegetarian friends, I thank them for gently leading me to this enlightenment.

That, in fact, was my entire point. A non-judgmental, guiding hand can accomplish so much more than a brow-beating sermon.

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:39 pm
Blessed Be to that Just....And your the one with a heart actually all of you are...even mark and his sentimental way...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:40 pm
Guys you all are super on this article and "Girl" you were totally right to get this out there just because you have a ton of people that are on both sides...

This totally upsets me no end...I would like to get back to the days with the Indians and ponys that actually "did hunting" no days this is to me just called KILLING...

Man just wants to SHOOT something, frankly he doesn't care, man, beast whatever...look at Texas...they don't really care what they shoot, schools - etc. Upsetting to me personally, but unless we make our voice known, we are only one person, Care2 care do a ton of help, we need to take that into effect and make a difference... Make our voices be HEARD...Do no be silent on this HARM frankly I hate Hunting period...there is NO need...this is totally obscene to me and I have no use for people that go out and do it.

Upset and Cranky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Friday November 6, 2009, 3:59 pm
"If you TRULY felt that was a reality, you wouldn't continue with your posts regarding hatred in the right-wing media. "

What has this conversation got to do with right wing media? Are you saying you support hatred in the right wing media and are offended by a discussion toward that end that has nothing to do with this conversation?

"I thank them for gently leading me to this enlightenment. "

Sounds a bit passive-aggressive to me...

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:05 pm

Oh, please.

Your words:

"We stopped treating Native Americans badly and stealing their land because they fought back and we learned it was wrong.

Slavery ended because we realized Africans are not animals to use and own (as we had been told), but were human beings who should have equal rights (hard fought for)."

Native Americans are STILL being abused, their treaties ignored, and their rights violated.

According to your many articles, many Americans are STILL racist, and right-wingers present an ever-present violent danger with their rhetoric.

Please do not portray this country as being something it's clearly NOT.

Sounds more than a little hypocritical to me.

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:12 pm
Your words:

"According to your many articles, many Americans are STILL racist, and right-wingers present an ever-present violent danger with their rhetoric."

If the shoe fits...But again, this is about "hunting". Just WHAT are YOU hunting?

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:17 pm

Marion (trying to make you focus), YOU brought up the subject of how much better Native Americans and Africans are -- NOT me!

I just challenged your statement.

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:20 pm

Just to help:

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:25 pm

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:20 pm
Marion Y.
Just a few pointers.

“Humans have not always been hunters. We started as gatherers of fruit, herbs and grasses”
WRONG. Humans have always been Hunter/Gatherers from the very beginning.

“Our teeth are made for fruit and grains”.
WRONG. Human teeth are in fact one of the anatomical proofs that we are indeed omnivorous.

“There is a formidable argument that meat eating causes disease, makes us aggressive and less compassionate toward life”.
What a load of bunkem!!! Which argument is that Marion, please cite your credible source. I bet you think that I as a meat eater am now being aggressive.

“It takes less than 30 minutes to digest fruit. It takes 24 hours to digest meat”
Which is the very reason we are omnivorous. Otherwise we would be continually grazing like other herbivores.

“24 hours is enough time for putrid meat to get lodged in pockets of the system where cancer can form”.
That is the most alarmist but fortunately baseless bunch of BS I ever heard. In fact when you look into the major contributors of cancer causing foodstuffs meat doesn’t even get a mention.
Look here: http://www.naturalnews.com/021808.html

Marion please research the facts before responding to a post with purely emotional and untrue statements.

For anyone who cares to educate themselves please read this article entitled “Vegetarianism in a nutshell”

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:32 pm
Merv...People justify whatever they want. I'm sure you'll find many links to support your meat-eating style. That's fine with me if that's what you eat. I don't, so I have researched WHAT, HOW and WHY I eat. \\I'm going to cite one source which I did a quick search on. You can do the same, if you like, but I won't spend more time trying to convince you. This has been long-standing information for decades. Again, this is but one source, but has a great chart showing the differences between carnivores and humans.

CARNIVORE vs. HERBIVORE vs. HUMAN
from What's Wrong with Eating Meat,
by Barbara Parham, ©Ananda Marga Publications, 1979
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=47066186&blogId=356438791

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:36 pm
"Marion (trying to make you focus), YOU brought up the subject of how much better Native Americans and Africans are -- NOT me!"

The blatant killing has stopped, but not the racism and abuse. Your anger is showing by your focus of picking fleas out of dogs' hair...

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:39 pm

What anger???

My posts have all been conciliatory.

(EEKS . . . shades of the musical theme from "Twilight Zone.")

It's o.k., Marion . . . we're all your friend.

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:43 pm
Okay guys...back to the subject at hand...LOL You wouldnt like Gorilly when she gets mad...LOL....remind you of the Hulk...lmao...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:44 pm
"Marion (trying to make you focus), YOU brought up the subject of how much better Native Americans and Africans are -- NOT me! "

Doesn't sound conciliatory to me. But if you want to play nice, I'm ready. :)

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:45 pm
Fleas you guys can pick the fleas off me...Im loaded with them in all this furrrrrrrrrr..

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:47 pm
We must stop killing wild animals. We are the dominant spice on the Planet, but we must preserve the others spices that have also the right to lives.

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:56 pm
Antoino we all here or most of us agree....But theres a but in the pic. Say IF we stopped hunting seasons how many animals and Im talking about white tail deer, mule deer, elk in general yes they would become abundent and that is what we want ( and not to be killed thank you very much...LOL)....but then what happens when the grasses are not abundent to keep up with the wild??? People already kill the predators meant to naturally cull these herds down becasue of human encroachment...which sucks. So what do we do????

REMINDER I AM NOT FOR HUNTING JUST STATING A VERY GOOD FACT!!!!!!!!...LOL Had to make sure that stood out...Wouldnt want peeps misunderstanging me...

BigGorillyHugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 5:31 pm
Merv, Anaemia, appendicitis, arthritis, breast cancer, cancer of the colon, cancer of the prostate, constipation, diabetes, gall stones, gout, high blood pressure, indigestion, obesity, piles, strokes and varicose veins are just some of the well known disorders which are more likely to affect meat eaters than vegetarians.

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:14 pm
Gorilly Girl...

Going to get off this but wanted to tell you --- thank you for getting this news out there...!!!!

This is a super news articlee and gotta hand it to ya for getting it out there...

While I am exremely upset that Man wants to HUNT and shot something so special, I am so consufused when governemtn lets it happen!!

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:16 pm
OK, sorry guy tired and can't spell, you probably get what I am thinking, if not whatever!

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:18 pm
Hi Gorilly Girl. It's cool. I am having a hard time sending
messages I have to hit "send" a bunch of times real fast just to get one to send lol somtimes it send a lot. In this case, still won't send. But got you message and everything is fine (-:

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:20 pm
Marilyn it was tough makin the decision, but I did it and dont regret it one bit. Its an issue that Im sure needed to be discussed and to let peeps get crap off thier chest at the same time...You know I adore all me animals and never ever wish for them to be killed....but alas we are the blame...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:26 pm
OK...Ya Got me again!!!

Gotta tell ya when you have some get news and it gets this much Buzz, you have done a super job!!!! The fact that so many people have so may different opinions is super...That is the way it should be...

Frankly...Personally I want all hunting to STOP TOTALLY and just let nature take the course...let animals take care of it instead of the stupid hunters, what is with this stupid hunter that thinks he can get something special to put on his mantal..NUTS...What a bunch of Buggers!!!!

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:31 pm
I sure dont want no dead head on my wall.....LOL I will never be at peace until this crap stops....forever.

John I have the UPMOST RESPECT FOR YOU!!!!!!! Your silly gorilly...

Big Gorilly Hugs to all of you and your comment are well received...

Your Gorilly Girl

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:40 pm
Gorilly Girl...

Getting off and so worn out personally, but wanted to get back to this --

Sadly a TON of people want WOLF head, Tigers, etc on their wall, but, what is in effect, this IS NOT WHAT what your news was about...

The fact that you got so many people reporting in this is super...it means frankly that you HIT IT ON THE HEAD and it needed to get out there...can't send you another green star...but, sadly, I hate hunting personally, and will not ever endorse it to no end...

I am SAD when any person goes out and shoots an animal...What a totally rotten person to do that.. I personally get ILL when I hear about it...

I want all of our creatures to be safe, take what they want and get what they want on their own, GET MAN OUT OF THERE!!! Man is totally Wacked out!!!

All I have to say. Also, Yep, No dead animals on my wall!!! UGH

Friday November 6, 2009, 6:44 pm
Agreed! I "hunt" with a camera, and hang a big 16X20 picture on my wall. I get a nice "shot".. animal lives! perfect!

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:15 pm
John O

Yeah John and there just as many on the other side.

Despite many of the apparent benefits of a vegetarian diet, many of these individuals are subject to ailments typical of an Omega-3 deficient diet including:
• Aching, painful joints & muscles
• An-ovulatory cycles
• Chest pains
• Cracked nails
• Depression
• Dry hair and skin
• Dry mucous membranes, tear ducts, mouth, vagina
• Eczema, psoriasis and other skin conditions
• Fatigue, malaise, lackluster energy
• Forgetfulness
• Frequent colds and sickness
• Inability to concentrate
• Indigestion, gas, bloating
• Irregular heartbeat
• Lack of endurance
• Lack of motivation
• Premature wrinkling
Not my words:

http://www.barleans.com/literature/flax/62-vegetarian-health.html

But we digress this thread is about our opposition to hunting.

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:20 pm
Hey no merv its okay....

Big Gorilly Hugs

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:28 pm
Well very few on your list seem as dangerous as my list. I know many meat eaters who have most on your list LOL.

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:33 pm
Hey G Girl, Look what you started. Well done.

Quite remarkable really the depth of feeling about a pursuit that is not a sport as some big brave hunters would have you believe.

Some of these sicko's actually call the helicopter borne massacres of deer in New Zealand a sport.

See here:
http://www.helisika.co.nz/hunting_fishing.asp

Friday November 6, 2009, 7:40 pm
OK John but did you read the bit about:
A diet dominant in Omega-6, and all but devoid of Omega-3 causes a disproportionate amount of Omega-6 to accumulate in both animal and human tissues. Recent research all but blames this gross disproportion to the genesis of modern degenerative diseases including arthritis, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.
Now you and I both know I can add to this and make my list more dangerous than your list. Haha

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:16 pm
but a vegetarian/vegan diet is not necessarily deficient in omega 3!

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:34 pm
Hi Koo,
You're quite right, not necessarily but:

"due to radical changes in food processing, manufacturing and dietary shifts, vegetarians have been found to be more deficient in essential Omega-3 fatty acids than their omnivorous neighbors"

I know this is splitting hairs to some degree but it shows that on either side there are pitfalls with any diet, be it with or without meat.

Now back to hunting.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 1:55 am
I'm fascinated by the intransigence of the hunters posts which are mostly in the time honoured my father and grand father did it so it must be OK or it is done for food or some altruistic "thinning" of the wildlife population! If the prey animal is not edible as in the case of fox wolf etc how does the killing of such an animal equate with sustanence argument and if you are going to say these animals eat the animals we want est your argument is self defeating because you saying that you have more right to eat than the animal you are killing which infact you don't need to do in the vast majority of cases economically. If you can afford the expensive tools of hunting you are ceratinly not hard up in the destitute sense! The citing of tradition for continuing something is not the best excuse when one puts it alongside the many traditions that I would assume even some bloodthirsty hunters would find repulsive or maybe not. For example if your father and grandfather caried out female genital mutilation or expected their children to have sex with them or work in the sex trade, climb up the inside of chimneys enter employment at say the age of 6 and many other things that could be described as traditions, would you still use this justification? I still don't hear much on the would you still conserve if you could not kill the product of your conservation! The silence is deafening!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 2:17 am
chris b.........Amen-Amen!!

I tried to send you a star.......But, you've received them already from me.

Great comment......Knock on wood-Plant trees for life....................

Saturday November 7, 2009, 2:39 am
As to arguments centred around the relative merits of eating meat or not I cannot see how these actually fit into the argument vis a vis why do people hunt, the comparison is specious because a meat eater will not neccessarily be a hunter and may well be a compassionate person, and vegetarian and vegan eaters will have their well balanced diets anyway which of course will not involve animals to a greater or lesser degree and those that bring in the merits or otherwise of diet are obfuscating the argument! Why do we hunt is a relatively simple question which has elicited food, conservation and tradition amongst its main planks! Tradition as we know is just an excuse for any kind of orgy of blood lust you care to name such as setting bulls alight, tearing their testicals off, slitting the throats of slaughtered anilimal without stunning them in the religiuos meat trade, using exploding harpoons to "Research" whales by the Japanese, etc. Conservation has been proven to be an excuse for breeding animals and birds for the express purpose of hunting them! The conservation of areas for hunting would not be neccessary if humans had not encroached on the wild areas in the first place and in the process decimated wild populations of not only animals but plants and trees. Wherever we go we leave not just our carbon footpint but our dirty footprint of litte,r destruction and death and it has to be said that the US has overtaken any other country in this respect worldwide, a dubious honour once held by the UK! Before my US friends fly back and say i'm US people bashing it is not personal it is primarily your governments as elswhere and the hunting mentality that infuses such foreign policy! Which might be described as if it moves kill it! The treatment of your own First Nations needs no futher illumination from me suffice it to say that they bravely fought back and whilst reduced in number and location by the invaders advance are beginning to be assimilated into "America" as something approaching full citizens but I digress! My point being when they fought back the invader/hunter was not so brave and if the animals had equal armaments then the hunters would also desist much in the same way as the Israel/Palestine situation would not still be dragging on without Americas hunting mentality fuelling the fire! As for the food argument if taken to it's logical conclusion then all Americans would out in the hills etc killing their dinner. Which is firstly probably unsustainable and secondly probably not accessable to the majority of the population. Thirdly I doubt the hunting fraternity would want their preserve invaded by the general mass of humanity and fourthly the need to hunt your dinner is actually not neccessary. Given that the vast majority of "sport" hunters are in it for kicks in their otherwise perhaps boring unstimulating lives persuing the almighty dollar they are not the hard done by subsistence hunters that they might like us to believe! They do it beause they can and they enjoy stalking and killing animals that have little chance against firearms used from a distance! The skills used in hunting such as finding prey and stalking it etc would be far better used with a camera in hand rather than a rifle! As to passing on values and skills to ones children the same happens in a criminal familly with disrespect for everything around you and taking anything you fancy from the money in someones bank to their car or killing their pets so the morality of traditional progressiion of values, skills etc is equal to anything hunting can teach them!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 5:30 am
the comparison is specious because a meat eater will not neccessarily be a hunter and may well be a compassionate person
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Then they need to google "factory farms" and see the hell those animal suffer. IMO it's worst then what hunters do. ( not by much though)

Saturday November 7, 2009, 11:06 am
There was a time when the human population was much smaller globally, and far more forests existed. Man hunted then as well, so it can't all be about expansion -- although I totally agree that destroying rain forests and green areas has come about because of the human population explosion. Environmentalists have long argued that people are a main reason for the global environmental disaster we now find ourselves in. That shouldn't be a free ride for hunters.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 11:33 am
thank you gorilla girll

Saturday November 7, 2009, 1:01 pm
Carole you have missed the point....Back in the days there wasnt hunting seasons it wasnt needed...Now there is...Why? Becasue the population HAS exploaded and HAS nearly wiped out any public lands that these animals forgage upon.

Im wore out...LOL

Big Gorilly hgs

Saturday November 7, 2009, 1:50 pm
What is the relevance of factory farms to the hunting depravity debate. Factory farms which I have viewed from the inside without anyone elses video intervening are in fact every bit as horrific as the videos imply and I think we are all aware of that here! Knowledge of where food comes from is probably lacking in the general poplation but I would have thought most on care 2 would be a bit more aware. The discussion is centred around why do people hunt not what they eat or the source of food unless it is from hunting and therefore relevant! If you revisit some of my ramblings I think you might get the picture that I personally do not support hunting except in the context of indegenous survival and even in those tiny minority of situations not all hunting is justifiable. Hunting for trophies, for ego massaging or hunting the inedible rules out much of hunting by the hunters self professed standards ie they only kill what the can eat. As the vast majority of hunters do it for the bloodlust and thrill factor and not to eat that elimates the rest morally bearing in mind this is a sport that is indulged in primarily by the relatively well off who hardly have a fiscal motivation for doing it either! And we all know conservation is simply a cover for restocking the animals to kill them! Is that clear as mud for you!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 2:07 pm
Back in the days before convenience stores and supermarkets before motorcars and all the trappings of modern lifestyle it would have been easier to justify taking a rabbit for the pot as the old countrymen call it. Unless I've missed something I think we a have gone past that stage. However the encroachment of man on the environment because of overpopulation should not be manifesting itself by an increased amount of hunting especially of the inedible and for displaying dead body parts as trophies type of hunting. Logic would see an increase in hunting to eat but I don't believe this is the case! It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many hunted animals are actually eaten or even edible, this sort of information might well inform the debate however unacceptable I personally find the concept of hunting!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 2:54 pm
"Back in the days before convenience stores and supermarkets before motorcars and all the trappings of modern lifestyle it would have been easier to justify taking a rabbit for the pot as the old countrymen call it."
So it is more civilized to let someone else kill your meat for you?
"It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many hunted animals are actually eaten or even edible, this sort of information might well inform the debate however unacceptable I personally find the concept of hunting!"
That's reasonable question. In my state (NC) here is a breakdown, and while perhaps not complete it would cover nearly all of the animals legal to hunt in this state: Edible:
Bear, boar, deer, turkey, rabbit, quail (my personal favorite), dove, grouse, pheasant, opossum (not me but my grandfather loved them), squirrel, ducks, geese, swan, coots, woodcock. I have eaten all of these except the 'possum.
Inedible:
Coyote, raccoon, crow, bobcat, beaver, fox, groundhog (although some do eat these), nutria. I guess if you were hungry enough you could even eat most of these too.
Well, enjoyed the comments. Believe it or not most people consider me civilized and an upstanding citizen.
Have to go now. My son and I are off the workbench to load our shells for the upcoming quail hunt. We prefer to do it the "old-fashioned way" and it takes a lot of time.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 2:58 pm
Poor quail....

Big Gorilly hugs

You know I had to throw that in...LOL

Saturday November 7, 2009, 3:14 pm
Ive been thinking about this since i read it gorilly girl. one of my earliest memories is going into the garage to find a dear hangind(blood coming out, freaked me out and caused hurt to this day, my father grew up very poor and had to hunt, but as he got extremely rich he still hunted, yes he ate what he hunted, but he later used the arrow, i found that somehow... more disturbing, i remember looking at them and the heads on the wall. when he died he even left hunting land........ i do not eat dear or much meat, im trying to stop completely... about a month ago. my spouse saw a deer dead on the side of the road near his way to work. our dear are about the size of great danes here full grown, no meat or anything, i hate that they are hunted. any ways, he was crying, he came in ,and we took shovels, and went and covered it up, i didnt want lil ones seeing the detruction that was done, it looked like its skull was crushed by hammers and torn its body almost in half. sad work. it was a doe.. not sure if it was preggers but it was heart breaking... i just wanted the kids not to see it. well i find out about 2 weeks ago... kids are doing canned hunts here to learn how to shoot. dears and wild boar(ha.. piglets) and these kids were so happy, today they choose their lambs to stuff and sell.. what are we teaching our kids???

Saturday November 7, 2009, 3:45 pm
What is the relevance of factory farms to the hunting depravity debate
--------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing, just answering your question about people eating meat having compassion. If they do then they should read up on factory farms.

Besides I don't care! give me one reason even a little one and i'm bringing up factory farms because if it reaches just one person who might not know about it I don't care if it's " on topic" (Like anything every stays on topic anyway).... it is worth it!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 3:53 pm
LMAO.....we always go off topic...hehehehe its okay....

Gorilly loves it..

Saturday November 7, 2009, 4:19 pm
I get your point John but I was trying very hard to stay on topic having been told off so many times before! Gorilly hopefully the powder is wet and the fleas are jumping ready to bite!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 4:22 pm
LOL...All of you are great...

Big Gorilly huygs

Saturday November 7, 2009, 5:07 pm
No problem Chris. I understand. I just never let being told to stay on topic bother me . I never was very good at listening LMBO

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:10 pm
"Poor quail...."
But have you ever had them fried with yellow grits, biscuits, and gravy? Nothing better...

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:34 pm
No, but with that logic, I bet you also thing getting a seat on the Titanic was a good deal to. LMBO!

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:35 pm
Actually my relatives live in the mountians and yes Mark I have eaten everything that can be caught in a trap shot with a gun, a bow their hands...LOL Yes I have eaten quail, goat, sheep, duck, goose,deer, snake, baby raccon, possum dumplins, squirrel (Iknow I spelt that wrong) even armadilla...very greasy like possum...This is all when I was yougner mind you...LOL Trust me they didnt tell me what I was eating till after the fact or they knew I wouldnt have touched it...Its just I dont have the taste for that kind of meat...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Hide quails hide...LOL

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:52 pm
Don't you love it when we talk about how stupid hunters are, then one come's on here............. and proves our point for us!! LOL

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:59 pm
Pppppppppppppffffffffttttttttttt....Mark has chosen his own path...Me on the other hand I have proudly not eaten a bit of meat for 5 months now...big grin. Pat on back..

Big gorilly Hgs

Saturday November 7, 2009, 7:20 pm
Good for you! GG

"fried with yellow grits, biscuits, and gravy" Umm Umm heart attack LOL

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:08 am
I have met hunters oming in to "trophy" hunt our magnificent bears in british columbia and was not impressed. (grizzly hunting season for the second time this year is happening) . hunters take out the best bears and because the law states that grizzly meat is unfit for humans, they take the head, paws, and hide and leave the carcass to rot in the woods. (poachers just take the paws and gall bladders). How is this "sport"?? In BC, we are fighting to stop the trophy hunting and the knuckle draggers are crying foul! below is an excerpt from a "mighty" hunter.

After settling in and getting our gear ready we decided to loosen our muscles up and practice on a couple of 3-D bear targets. The routine for the days were as follows: Great breakfast at 9 a.m. by our Australian cook Leanne, horseshoe playing, stump shooting and reading until 3pm when our main supper was served. Left camp by boat at 5 pm and the group would hunt the north and south side of the river. Most of the stands were 100 - 200 yards off the river. The stands were ladder or lock-on stands ten feet high. The baits which consisted of cookies, meat scraps or fresh beaver were around 15-20 yards out from the stands.

The first night out was a Saturday and I was taken to a nice looking stand called Echo. The first hour on the stand I was a little nervous for this was my first bear hunt and I did not know what to expect. I settled down after reading a book and constantly glancing around for bear. After five and a half hours all I saw the first evening were squirrels and birds eating the cookies. Steve had the excitement for the first evening on the Graveyard stand. He arrowed a nice sow and had to finish the bear with a center shot when the bear climbed into a tree. The rest of the crew saw some bear but no shots were taken.

The second day Cliff, my guide, took Albinder on a long boat ride to a stand called McBride. This was a strategic looking stand situated within stands of poplar trees. Many game trails were funneling into the bait area. This particular stand was used only twice this season and the guides were predicting that I would see bears that evening. That prediction came true as the black shadow appeared 25 yards from a trail in back of my stand. My nerves registered a 7.5 on the Richter scale as I watched the bear make its way towards the bait. The boar was a bit spooky, moving in then turning back, looking, sniffing and being very cautious. I cam to full draw but the bear heard me draw back and spooked. I held at full draw and the boar gave me another opportunity. I released my arrow and thought I made a perfect hit. The long hairs on a bear can fool you and I believe I shot too low. What a disappointment, but quite and adrenaline rush.

Greg had action the same evening with a hit on a nice boar. Was he ever excited!!
Monday, Cliff decided to take me back to the Echo stand. He said that the beaver bait was hit pretty hard the prior night. He dragged a beaver bait along the trail as we approached the stand. He tied it up the tree and wished me luck. The time was noted be 5:30 p.m. I hung up my bow with an arrow knocked and began reading my book. After ten minutes I scanned the area and was reading my book. After ten minutes I scanned the area and was quite surprised that a black shadow was heading towards the bait without making a sound that was audible to the human ear. I believe the beaver bait acted as a drag rag similar to deer hunting tactics. Quickly I took off my glasses, put the book down and grabbed my bow. The boar was now 15 yards away and becoming a little wary. Just as he was about to head back from the same direction from where he came from I released my arrow and watched a complete pass through. I knew I made a fatal hit as the boar ran off. I called Cliff on the 2-way radio and he could not believe that I had shot a bear that quickly. He came back by boat and helped me track the bear which ran only 50 yards. My first bear hunt and my first boar bear. The boar missed Pope and young by one inch.

The next evening Bob, one of the head guides, escorted me to the Hamburger Hill stand on the North side of the river. The stand was a comfortable ladder stand with a swivel seat. There was no activity on the stand until 10 p.m. A dark shadow appeared off to my right up the hill. The bear came into the bait and grabbed a scrap of meat and took off. The bear looked a little on the small side because he just made the height to the second ring of the 55 gallon barrel, a gauge used to size the bears. Another bear was circling the bait and I started to get prepared for another shot. This boar came in from my left and passed just below my stand as he was heading towards the bait. His back end was facing me so I had to wait for quite awhile before I got a good quartering away shot. I centered my green fiber optic pin behind the shoulder, taking into consideration of going bit back to allow for the angle. I got another complete pass through and the boar ran only 40 yards before he expired. That was the end of my bear hunting for a week.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:25 am
Noted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TY Gorilly.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:54 pm
Sammantha thanks for the sad story...Im a softie on this crap....

Big Gorilly Hugs

Winfred thanks.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:44 pm
I hunt too
I hunt hunters

Monday November 9, 2009, 3:29 pm
i just love and adore you Claudia!!!!!

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:02 pm
you are the best Claudia. i just adore you!

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:59 pm
Ohhhh geez.When i hear the comments made : Hunters are needed to keep some animal populations in check,it gives me chills.What a bunch of crap...
I believe in Mother Nature to keep populations on a healthy level,sure,she makes mistakes sometimes,but always corrects !!! It has been done millions of years.
It is us humans who have gone mad,disrupted populations,and now we think we need to reduce more.
I've heard recently in US somewhere,: "we reduced the coyote population,because they were growing to fast in numbers and eating wild rabbits and other prey,now the population is down and all people have to many wild rabbits in their backyards,swarming all over.Now they are screaming,bring back the coyotes".Stupidity??? Oh hell.Wouldn't it be a good idea if Mother Nature desides to reduce the human population?
Wonder what comments will this lead too.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:03 pm
You woldnt hear any complaints from me...LOL

Big Gorilly Hugs

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:11 pm
I LOVE THE WAY BOTH YOU GORILLY GIRL AND CLUADIA THINK .. IM HERE READY ...FISTS UP!!!

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:53 pm
Driving to where they hunt $20.00
Valve Stem Core Remover Tool $6.90
Knowing they can't drive home with 4 flat tires priceless!!!

Monday November 9, 2009, 7:00 pm
LMAO.....I luves it...LOL

Big Gorilly Hugs

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 6:52 am
Come on John you think they would notice? Some are probably driving on their wheel rims anyway!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 12:59 pm
hahahaha, yeah your probable right!!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 1:12 pm
Pppppppppppppffffffffffttttttttttttttt...Om my you guys...

Big gorilly Hhygs

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:05 pm
JOHN, IVE FOUND SCREW DRIVERS WORK WELL TOO........heheheh

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 4:52 pm
We are strong in numbers here as anti-hunters
Only wish we could be there with same numbers when a hunter
hides behind some bushes as a wimp to shoot a dear of whatever they like to shoot.

John,and what does it cost to pick me up here? I would deff pay to get a ride to some hunters,bring it on !

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 4:58 pm
Heck even better just pull the valve stems out...

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 5:30 pm
cAN I COME TOO!!!!!!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 5:33 pm
You know what you can even do and I think its funnier than shit...We used to call our cattle to us with police sirens to bad you couldnt go around where you know hunters will be at and sound these things off...LOL

Big Gorilly Hugs

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 5:55 pm
Yes you can come along.....The more the merrier..

Big Gorilly hgs

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:47 pm
Gorlily, Claudia, and Kristen, very bad idea if you're serious. Personal confrontation will achieve nothing (we are talking blockheads here) and may even be risky with all those bullets flying around.
Wouldn't want to lose any of you good friends in such a way.
Don't know about over there but here in Oz if you were to remove the valve stems as you described and they drove on flat tyres you could be charged with malicious damage and maybe even conduct endangering life.
Much better if you don't like the law to get it changed rather than break other laws.
Pardon me for saying so but I believe from what I hear (unfortunately repeatedly) the gun laws in the US are far too liberal. I know it was written into the Constitution but that was then and things change. It is not unheard of that constitutions have been revised to reflect modern day values. Just a thought.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:51 pm
Another thought.
Take out of the Constitution "The right to bear arms" and insert "the right to bare legs" hehehe

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:55 pm
I know Merv some may actually do it but I like my siren idea...LOL Noone gets in trouble that way...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:56 pm
This article is the biggest piece of clap trap I've read in a long time.
Hunters do not care about the environment, animals or preservation of any kind. They care about killing. It makes them feel important and strong, instead of the pathetic, gutless wretches they are. Sneaking through the bushes in their special little outfits and their little hats, caring high powered rifles popping off anything that moves, gives them reason to live.
You hunters want to kill something? Go join the armed forces. Chances are, you will get the opportunity to take somebody out by just defending yourself. Of course, that is too scary, isn't it? The enemy also have state of the art weapons.
Mark, you need to brush up on your health info. Any doctor worth his salt will tell you the most important food you eat are fruits, grains and vegetables. Meat is near the bottom of the ol' pole. Want to have an early heart attack? Stuff yourself full of steak.
I have no tolerance for animal abusers of any kind. Hunting is animal abuse. Period.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 2:06 pm
Merv, it is againist the law.Just don't get caught. Anyway Sadly there is laws now that it's also a crime to harass hunters. But there's ways around that to!

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:14 pm
HOW ABOUT AIR GUNS!! YEAH WE COULD SNEAK UP ON THEM AND BLOW THEM IN THEIR EARS!! THEY'LL LOSE ONE OF THE THINGS THEY NEED TO HUNT.. THEIR HEARING!! AND NO I WOULDNT CONFRONT A HUNTER WHEN HE/SHE HAS THEIR GUNS, AND BOWS, BUT HECK ....SPRAY PAINT THEIR TRUCKS WHILE THEY ARE HIDING IN THERE LIL TREE HUTS===COWARD!!!!!!

Thursday November 12, 2009, 5:54 pm
It is very frustrating standing helplessly by as beautiful creatures are needlessly killed. Thankfully it is not as rampant here in Oz but nonetheless we need to be vigilant.
It is another reason to push governments in setting aside more parks and sanctuary's where hunting is illegal.
Of course if you happen to be driving past a known hunting area minding your own business and your car backfires which scares all the animals away..........if you get my drift

Thursday November 12, 2009, 8:17 pm
Okay here is a example of a very bad hunter....shit this is bad...

http://www.care2.com/news/member/441464023/1302399

Friday November 13, 2009, 11:28 am
this is an excerpt from a report on bear "hunting" in katmai alaska. you can google, is the bear hunt ethical in katmai which contains the video of the bear the fellow is speaking about. what a tragic waste of a sentient being.

The bear that was killed in the video was a beautiful female who I assume likely would have had cubs next year. She was finishing up a good summer, and was very fat. She wandered right next to our camp several times eating berries, and slept in the bushes about 30 yards outside of our electric fence. This was valuable bear, much more valuable alive than dead. She was valuable as an individual. The bear viewing resource in this region is one of the most incredible wildlife jewels on the planet. Only when you make eye contact with such a bear and feel the mutual trust between you and the bear can you grasp how special and rare she really was.
On the 1st we watched a party of 3 walk up to her as she carried a fish up the bank of the lake. She was oblivious to their presence until, at 20 yards or less, one man let an arrow go into her chest. The guide put two bullets into her before she disappeared into the grass and came our direction. She stood up and looked at us with a look of sheer terror 20 yards away before hiding in the alders. The guide found her and shot her 4 more times. We filmed and watched all this while set up 10 feet from our camp. The bear was killed 50 yards or less away. We then saw them gut her like a catfish, leaving the white carcass to attract more bears for the next day's hunt. I hope her hide looks good on someone's wall.

Friday November 13, 2009, 11:36 am

Thank you so much, Samantha, for that very touching insight on the cowardly cruel, and insensitive, "sport" of hunting.

Any hunter (with a heart) who reads it, should rethink his use of leisure time.

Friday November 13, 2009, 11:44 am
I once came across a picture online
that was of three bears holding a rifle lying
in wait for a human.

Hmmmmmmm....Don't we just wish for
them to return the favor or cruelty.

But, at the rate man is having his own &
at the same time trying to save billions
of his own hunters will not have anything to
hunt except his own.

The bears & all the rest of Mother Natures
beautiful animals will have the last laugh.

Knock on wood-Plant trees for life....................

Sunday November 15, 2009, 4:53 pm
why do humans hunt?...Because they CAN
If it wasn't legal we'd see this world turn for the better.
But first we need supporters

Monday November 16, 2009, 12:54 pm
this link is not exactly about 'hunting per se' but lots of info in regards to vegetarian versus meat diets...therefore, no need for hunting: http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html

...and quote: " that No human cultural-carnivore kills its animal prey with his/her natural equipment, nor do they eat their animal prey raw. I have challenged countless meatarians to do so in the past 30 years, and NONE have shown the courage of their conceptual convictions and done so. Why? Simply because we are NOT an "omnivore". In fact, we have strong anti-killing instincts. Try to kill an animal with your bare hands to demonstrate this! All "evidence" of human flesh-eating is merely a collection of self-selected, statistically-insignificant cultural artifacts, totally unrelated to our species' true nutritional needs."
....http://ecologos.org/omni.htm

thanx to all of you on great comments, to those who showed compassion and real understanding ..a great thread! thanx GG for starting this.

Monday November 16, 2009, 4:43 pm
Lory G.
What a load of garbage. I read the pages you linked to and it is glaringly obvious the author is a fruit loop presenting a collection of self-selected, statistically-insignificant crap.
" that No human cultural-carnivore kills its animal prey with his/her natural equipment”
For a start the human species is omnivorous not carnivorous.
We did and still do kill animals with our natural equipment, it’s called a brain. We kill without the threat of being killed by using weapons thus avoiding physical confrontation and ensuring our own survival.
“nor do they eat their animal prey raw.” You have challenged countless meatatarians?
Are you ignorant of the widespread practices in many countries of the raw meat dishes consumed regularly such as Tiger meat, Carpaccio, Crudos, Kitfo, Gored gored, Tartare, Yukhoe, Mett and the raw meat consumed by Eskimos for millennia.
Personally I have my steaks cooked blue and enjoy very much Tartare when I can. I also much enjoy raw fish as do a lot of people around the world.
The claim is made we are frugivorous just like the chimpanzee our closest relative. This ignores the fact that chimpanzees are in fact opportunistic meat eaters. Not only do they eat raw meat, they are also cannibalistic and have been filmed killing and eating baby chimpanzees.