Saturday May 10, 2008, 7:28 pm
Messed up is this not...The dumbass freak needs to step down...

Big Grilly Hugs

Saturday May 10, 2008, 7:59 pm
Great article Mark! I loved the StoryOfStuff.com film, and signed up on their mailing list.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:06 pm
It would appear that these are the times for dishonesty and dictators.

The powerful love controlling the weak, but in fact it is the powerful themselves who are truly weak.

If they had to live under the conditions that they force their people to live under, I dare say that most would commit suicide.

Mugabe, like most dictators are monsters. An animal of the lowest common denominator. The fact that he killed elephants for their ivory(or otherwise) makes him a completely despicable character in my eyes.

He is in the same class as our village idiot in Washington who kills people for oil.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:07 pm
Mugabe needs to step away and realize that his day is past.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:10 pm

Yes, Steph, Mugabe does need to step down.There is some possibility that he might if he can get a deal that gives him immunity for war crimes.

Good going, JohnMichael. I'm on their mailing list also, and I ordered a DVD so that I can show it to local groups. You did a great job publishing it, by the way, and I thank you for catching my mistakes.

Michael C., you have a way with words that goes straight to the heart of things, and I fully agree with everything you wrote.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:35 pm
Okay queston...Why cant the newley elected pres. just step in??? Is this Mugabe jerk got that much hold on the government and military???

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:40 pm

Yes, he really does, Steph. And he also has foreign backing -- the countries like China that he has been selling the ivory to and who want him to remain in control so that they can mind uranium in Zimbabwe also. The opposition has the backing of the United States and some other countries, but in many cases their motives are no better. This is a fight over resources -- primarily the elephants who can be killed for their ivory, and the uranium which can be used for weapons and to build more Chernobyls.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:48 pm
Can we send him hate mail????...LOL

Saturday May 10, 2008, 8:51 pm
well done Mark. Thanx for posting Stephanie.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:04 pm
Thank you Mark; I just say what is on my mind.

Mugabe really gets under my skin. I think it has to do with what you said; he's got foreign backing. This has allowed him to continue virtually unpunished.

Can he or rather will he be stopped?

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:07 pm
LOL...that's a good one Steph. Hate mail. I'm pretty sure he gets a lot of that.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:10 pm
I cant beleive the US is backing him too. Poor Ele's and the people. I so love africa and wish all this shit would stop for them.

Michael...LOl Its all I could think of....LOL

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:13 pm
Great article, thought provoking, and for anyone who has read and followed Mark's postings and commentaries, he is writing, in his article, a taut and condensed version of his ideas.

I loved the video "The Story of Stuff". Excellent speaker.
Yes, Mugabe needs to step down but he won't any time soon.
Chavez stunned the corporations with his win in Venezuela.
China want Africa.
Elections and how they work or don't work and the whys.
Yes, something has to give in USA and I'm not so sure on many of the topics in the article on how to do it or why it is not possible or even possible with some suggestions and ideas.

I keep wondering what the US and the World is going to be like for the upcoming generations and the only thought I have at the moment is "bleak"...

TY, Stephanie for posting.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:17 pm
Hey mark do your britches fit casue you are too big for your britches I say...LOL Look at all the good stuff you come out with...LOL

Big Gorilly Hugs

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:29 pm

Thank you, Jim. Great synopsis. I do think that change is possible, but it begins only when we are ready to stop doing things in the same old ways that don't work, and become open to change ourselves.

Steph, the U.S., isn't backing Mugabe, it is backing his opposition, but it is not doing it for humanitarian reasons, it is doing it for the same reason that China is backing Mugabe -- to be able to kill the elephants and mine the uranium.

What The Story of Stuff teaches us is that we have to be conscious of where everything comes from. If they could see the elephants being killed, I doubt if there is a single Buddhist in the world who would buy an ivory Buddha.

We need to put people, ourselves, back into that chain of production, and convert it from an illusory line with nothing on either end, to the circle that it really is and must be.

When somebody offers you something valuable for a very cheap price, you have every reason to suspect that it might have been stolen and to ask them where they got it. If all you care about it the price, you are likely to end up buying stolen goods. It is no different with big corporations. When they try to sell us something, we have to ask where and how they got it, and if it was stolen and we happen to be ethical, we have to refuse to buy it.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:33 pm
Oh my bad...see I am trying to understand all this stuff...sorry.....What the heck is Ivory good for anyway..It is illegal here isnt it??? So why back it??? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm need to do more reading...

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:35 pm

ROFL. Yes, Steph, my britches fit, because I know that I'm likely to gain weight sitting on my butt and pounding a keyboard all day, so I buy them a couple of sizes too large and then expand into them. ;)

Come to think of it, Steph, I've been meaning to ask you. Why is it that gorillies don't have to wear britches and we do? Is it because we don't have enough fur? I do believe in evolution, I'm just not always sure that it went in the right direction. :)

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:42 pm
Because I have enough fur on my butt to cover it all up....LOL

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:50 pm

Uh, Stephanie, you mean....that picture is really YOU?

I'm a Daniel Quinn fan, and I do believe in wise gorillies, but I never thought I'd actually meet one. WOW!

Saturday May 10, 2008, 9:52 pm
LOL....Ya its me...LOL

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:07 pm
When Mugabe gets the "Golden Parachute" he will go.That and a guarantee on his 90,000 sq.ft. house being purchased instead of confiscated.
Plus he is having a very hard time getting weapons and ammunition into Zim.So all the North Koreans don't have a lot to work with. Once the people of Zim realize he can really be forced out the rampant killing and intimidation occurring in the rural areas is likely to stop because the people there will fight back. A lot easier to pick on somebody when you know they can't put up any fight.
Good metaphor for the Buddha's, Mark. Ivory is available in a lot of animals but those so inclined can do their own homework on that. The elephants have the misfortune of having long tusks of the stuff and CITES is culpable because it has made it much more valuable. That's outside the thread though. The other issue is the upper level military officers that have been responsible for most of the atrocities for the last 15 yrs.If Mugabe gets a pass,(the golden Parachute) the ICC has sealed warrants for most of the commanders and they will still be held culpable. There are a lot of them and they are afraid.So it is possible Mugabe no longer has full control in the issue.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:11 pm
BTW thanks for posting Stephanie, and I think you are a very pretty lady, I like 'em hairy! :) Friend request coming your way! :)

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:13 pm
Nice pants Stephanie and thanks for posting.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:15 pm
Michael that would be such good news I will be waiting to here...

You likie my hairy pants Eh?....lol...lol You guys are too much...lol

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:20 pm
I can promise you Jim that a change is going to come.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:22 pm
Yes it is Michael! Yes it is!

WeAreChange.org

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:22 pm
Nice post Michael and very true.

No criminal can get away with his crimes forever. Eventually all are caught and must answer for their crimes.

Justice may be blind, but I promise you that she will not be late!

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:26 pm
Also folks I have a page with lots of Mugabe/Zimbabwe realted news...

http://www.truthawaits.com/zimbabwe_elections.html

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:30 pm
I'm listening...

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:30 pm
Keeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwl John will have to go read up.....

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:43 pm
Well Jim - Mugabe seems set for a run-off - which seems the likely outcome of the opaque results-announcement process - and is possibly consulting security aides, perhaps to test the wind on just how far he can stretch the credibility of an election that might, in reality, be unwinnable. To brazenly steal a first-round win might be too outlandish, but a run-off allows the ZANU-PF time to hone the rigging and coercion machine needed to "beat" Tsvangirai.

Less brutal but no less Machiavellian are rumors that breakaway ZANU-PF candidate Simba Makoni (Mugabe's former finance minister) - thought to have gotten around 8 percent of the vote in the first round - is talking to his old boss about some sort of run-off transfer of allegiance.

Makoni's pragmatism seems easy-going, oblivious to Mugabe's description of him as a "prostitute" on national TV some weeks ago. Some suspicion abounded that Makoni's candidacy was a first-round stalking horse for Mugabe - but other rumors suggest he is also talking to Tsvangirai about a senior post-transition role.

More speculation suggests that if Mugabe were to "win" a run-off with Makoni's support, the latter may later be handed power by Mugabe, with the backing of securocrats fearful that a Tsvangirai regime change might curb the vast privileges given ZANU-PF hacks, such as land and bureaucratic positions.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 10:55 pm
It's a great article to read, Mark. I'm glad you posted it, Stephanie. The film and site are wonderful, and I bookmarked the page. I enjoyed reading this thread.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 11:06 pm
Thank-You!! Noted!!!

Saturday May 10, 2008, 11:10 pm
As Simon Roughneen from ISN puts it: "More optimistic for Zimbabwe is that the political parties are not ethnically based, strictly speaking, and the issues and tensions prevalent are not tribal - though the Shona-backed Mugabe drove the massacre of thousands of Ndebele in Matabeleland shortly after independence, purging supporters of a rival guerrilla hero with the aid of North Korean "security advisors."

Mugabe fears a handover to Tsvangirai, as he may face criminal proceedings for these killings. But if no oxygen is given to inter-communal rivalries, Zimbabwe may avoid the politically driven ethnic polarization manifested in Kenya's post-election massacres."

Fairly astute observation. He's one of the first international journalists to mention the close ties between Mugabe and North Korea. It would be naive though to believe the Ndebele have forgotten.20 years is not that long ago. There are however enough of the white tribe to act as a buffer unless Mugabe gets the ammunition to drive them out. That he is having a hard time getting.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 11:19 pm

Stephanie, I do thank you for posting this.

Mark, you've outdone yourself on this one. It's great! You hit on everything that is of importance and given us the tools to make change happen. Thank you, Kudos and just not enough green stars to give you all that you deserve.

Saturday May 10, 2008, 11:40 pm
This is just another case of a "once upon a time good man" gone bonkers

Sunday May 11, 2008, 12:02 am

Marena, I'm not sure that Mugabe is any more "bonkers" than most selfish and materialistic people -- he's just taken it to further extremes. Power can do that to anyone who doesn't have enough strength of character to resist corruption, and I'd guess that's most of us. The only thing saving a lot of us is that we haven't been given the same temptations.

Thank you, Marian (blush). The proof will be in the pudding. If my article is any good, the number of views on the storyofstuff.com website will visibly increase. I've got my fingers crossed (and it sure is making it hard to type). You know I love you, right?

Sunday May 11, 2008, 12:10 am

Michael W., thank you for your keen insights and extensive knowledge of the current political situation and its historical background. Every time you post I learn something that I didn't know before, and in my book that's the greatest gift that anyone can give.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 1:01 am
Just scroll down past the article on that page for the related news Stephanie.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 3:14 am
Fifty six opposicionist adherent to Mugabe were jailed 9 May in Shamvra, near Harare. They were charged with violence against supporters of Mugabe. This dictator wants to remain in power forever. This is a worst example we can see about "helsman" that think the country believes to him.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 5:34 am

Agreed, Maria. The belief that something is your personal property and that therefore you can do what you wish with it, always seems to lead to disrespect and destruction. The concept may have started with patriarchal religions that gave man dominion over the earth, the animals, women, slaves, and nonbelievers. It is a pernicious belief that contradicts the Golden Rule, leading me to believe that the Golden Rule was stolen from earlier, more egalitarian cultures and may be the only valid thing in many present day religions.

It is good to know that there are parts of the country where justice can prevail. Thank you for posting. A country belongs to the people who live there, not to any wealthy elite. to corporations, or to warlords and politicians.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 6:12 am
Mark, you always have the best articles. Thank You. And thanks for posting Gorilly Girl.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 11:49 am

Thank you, Joycey. My focus is and always has been on government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Without that, no cause has much of a chance in the U.S. and the exploited nations, peoples, and animals will continue to suffer. And I too am grateful to Gorilly Girl (Stephanie) for being kind enough to post this story.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 12:42 pm
Noted, tnx Stephanie for posting, and thank you all for the wonderful discussion.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 1:36 pm
I pleased to see you are still active here @Care2 Mark, perhaps not as visible, but none the less still educating those of us who want to learn!
My thanx to Stephanie for posting Mark's commentary and...
*greenstars* to everyone who has contributed to the discussion :D

Sunday May 11, 2008, 2:22 pm

Thank you, Kim. I don't post news stories any more, but I'm doing a lot more original writing and I'm glad that people enjoy it.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 3:30 pm
Mark this is realy YOURS...For your story my dear I dont wanna accept this for it is truley yours my sweet..

Congratulations! The Care2 Community has promoted your submission to the Care2 News Network Front Page.
News: Lessons From Africa and Annie
In recognition for this outstanding achievement, you've also been awarded a "Golden Note".

You ARE one HELL of a guy and I so love you for it...

BIG Gorilly Hugs

Sunday May 11, 2008, 3:51 pm

Aw shucks! Thanks, Gorilly. You do deserve the credit for posting, but in return for your kind words I'm sending you lots of nanners and I'll even submit to letting you bust a few more ribs with those big gorilly hugs. ROFL

Love you too, Steph! Congratulations, Happy Mother's Day, and many future Golden Notes.

Sunday May 11, 2008, 8:05 pm

Thanks Mark for sharing your article.

Also impressed with The Story of Stuff, Annie Leonard. Agreed, many, many more, must see this.

TY Stephanie : )

Sunday May 11, 2008, 10:44 pm
You might find a lot of this stuff about problems with democracy in Plutarch " Fall of th4e Roman Republic"If you read the great whites Mark.Congratulations on writing this sort of thing up though.
Another fact you stress is the opinion of those that buy matters to sellers.
This is where Care2 comes to it's own and is effective.
I suggest you read actual accounts of the French revolution before you start the barricades and we will overcome stuff and perhaps some of Bernard Shaws writings.

Gradual undermining and focussing on good has historically often chaznged things- This is where all the Assorted types of attack by people protecting pets people wanting clean air people wanting chemicals that kill out of their homes people wanting to alleviate stazrvation, people wanting to stop animals going extinct every twenty minutes, people wanting to raise the consciousness of us all and therefore our sensitivity to human pain and our caring , the lunatic fringe of UFO and Atlantis believers those esconsed in magic and religion and all brands of do gooders come in. Of course it is capitalism doing it - the global warming and the really bad stuff and the deforestation and the animal extiction and the treachorous weather and the earthquakes and the floods - But note capitalism in places like Sweden can be highly beneficial to all. To attempt to change it towards that sort of thing may well be a less damaging enterprise than trying to destroy it entirely- Anyway I too am pontificating

Sunday May 11, 2008, 11:38 pm

Thank you, Penelope. I haven't advocated any barricades, in fact I've warned against violence. But the United States does not consider Sweden to be a capitalist country. The United States considers Sweden to be a socialist country. We are constantly warned by the present-day great whites about the evils of socialism, taxes too high, health care for everyone instead of just the rich which hurts the corporate bottom line of the health care, insurance, and pharmaceutical industries, and all the other horrors of subversive socialist systems like Swedens that take people into consideration rather than having the government operate on behalf of corporations.

It is not the capitalism in Sweden that makes it less destructive of animals, the planet, and people, but the socialist elements that limit capitalism in ways that the modern day great whites of the United States would find intolerable.

For the animal lovers to want to limit corporate profits in order to protect animals from cruel and unnecessary laboratory testing/torture, factory farming, vivisection, and other corporate exploitation, without seeing that the system that allows corporations to exploit animals also allows it to destroy the environment and to exploit, torture, and kill people, means that they will direct their efforts at regulatory reform rather than at systemic change, as will all the other groups.

As I make clear in the article, regulatory reform is a temporary stopgap that is easily undone. Only systemic change can stop the unsustainable growth of predatory and disaster capitalism. Socialist systems like that of Sweden have made such systemic changes, which is why the United States is so fearful of socialism.

Neither I nor anyone I know is trying to destroy capitalism completely. Socialism does not destroy capitalism, as you can see from the very fact that you refer to Sweden's socialist system as being capitalist. It merely puts capitalism at the service of the country and the people, rather than solely in the service of often foreign but always obscenely wealthy elites whose multinational corporations shield them from liability, accountability, responsibilty, and in the U.S., even from taxes.

Monday May 12, 2008, 4:39 am
Noted! Thank you all!

Monday May 12, 2008, 12:31 pm
Noted and thank Stephanie.
Mark that was a thought provoking article. I wish I could have watched The Sory Of Stuff but having dial up makes that difficult :(
I don't shop at WalMart for several reason's and one is they sell products made from countries who use child labor !

Tuesday May 13, 2008, 2:01 am
Noted Stephanie!
Great to see that there are people awake and interested in true democracy! If there would be a list of the worst dictators in history this fine Mr. Mugabe would have a high ranking just like Idi Amin .

Tuesday May 13, 2008, 8:41 am
Mark,

Thank you for the post. For as messed up as the political system of Africa is, it is amazing to find out that many cities have converted all traffic lights to solar. Why the US isn't jumping on this bandwagon is beyond me. I have noticed much localization in Vermont in the past few years. Fair Trade is on the rise, as is alternative energy.

Any revolution which is worth having is one in which the outcome is better than the current despair. The trick is to be prepared to replace it with a system which benefits all living beings and promotes a sustainable future. Otherwise there is no point in having the revolution.

"The Story of Stuff" is also a great piece. I have added this link on Earth College. Please check us out.

Peace, Love and Light,
Lyra (www.earthcollege.org)

Tuesday May 13, 2008, 12:07 pm

Thanks, Lyra. Great website and thanks for adding "The Story of Stuff" link to it.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 11:31 am
Mark, my comment about Mugabe going bonkers was the least offensive I could come up with. I get almost daily updates from my foster son in Harare (a young black Zimbebwean man who lived with me for 5 years while he studied here) The constant fear they live in is heart-breaking for me. His younger brother and his girlfriend where ambushed by Mugabe thugs and severely traumatized (you can imagine HOW) and are fighting for their lives in hospital. I could have made a much stronger worded statement but refrained from letting my anger get the better of me. So "BONKERS" will have to surfice.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 2:01 pm

Thank you for sharing, Marena. Mugabe's Intelligence Agency Officers intercepted a party of U.S., U.K. EU, Japanese, and African Union officials inspecting hospitals in Zimbabwe, and threatened to beat up a U.S. official. This has been documented as an "international incident" and it is likely that an application will be made to the U.N. to allow intervention. I don't know what the outcome might be, but here's a link to the story:

International Incident in Zimbabwe

I hope the situation there may improve, at least in the short term, and I hope that your foster son and his family will survive this monster.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 3:36 pm
Marena you have my sympathies. It's what is occurring all over Zimbabwe right now and will, until everybody(all these national "leaders" and the UN) stop playing to his vanity. The AU has offered via Tanzania to put troops into Zim. -not the best of ideas- but a viable one,to help the NEW ruling party whose Parliament is in place to clamp down on the atrocities. That doesn't get rid of Mugabe right away and the resultant reorganization of the army could cause major problems, but it would bring resolution. The mercs he counted on are not getting there, neither are his needed ammunition and arms. The North Koreans won't stick if it looks like the ship is sinking - they can't afford to be caught there.
Mark a lot of those "incidents" have happened over the years and the UN? Sorry but I don't have much faith there. Now if Mugabe's boys had shot one of them maybe but threats probably not. In all this rhetoric it seems to have been forgotten that this guy was no Simon Bolivar or great diplomat. He was the extremely blood thirsty, murdering, megalomaniac with no real vision of the future then as he is now. Age hasn't mellowed him out, its just made him sneakier. So he hasn't gone "bonkers" its were he's always been.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 7:43 pm

Michael, I think this paragraph from Allister Sparks' book, "The Mind of South Africa," published in 1990, may explain what Marena refers to:

"Zimbabwe, of course, has been the most remarkable of all. A terrible war was fought, great suffering endured, to stave off this fate worse than death in what was Rhodesia. And when finally in 1980 it was over and the unthinkable happened and that extremist Robert Mugabe, the worst of them all, took over, he offered--roconciliation! Thirty-five thousand people died in the Zimbabwean war, black Africa's ugliest, with fearful atrocities committed on both sides, yet today, a handful of years later, black and white live together harmoniously and with no wign of vengeance or retribution. The tables have not been turned. The former prime minister, Ian Smith, who imprisoned Mugabe for ten years and refused even to let him attend his only child's funeral when the boy died tragically during that time, who inflamed the white resistance with his horror stories of what black rule would mean, lives unmolested in retirement on his farm and until recently had a seat in Parliament. Other white farmers, who were Smith's most ardent supporters, who financed his party, supported his repressive policies, and fought in his war are prospering today and thanking God that that good chap Mugabe is there to stabilize the country and keep the extremists in check."

So, at least according to Sparks, Mugabe wasn't always bonkers.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 9:29 pm
Thank you!

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 10:59 pm
Monday, Apr. 30, 1984. "Terror in Matabeleland" It accused the Zimbabwe army of waging a campaign of terror in parts of Matabeleland province, into which government troops had been sent in January to flush out anti- government rebels. The bishops charged that physical brutality was commonplace against the area's 450,000 inhabitants. "People are beaten up on the mere suspicion that they are helping dissidents or when they say they do not know anything about dissidents," said the report. It charged that army commanders had adopted a "policy of starvation," telling villagers that they "would first have to eat their chickens, then their goats, then their cattle and then their own children."
The bishops' charges echoed other reports in recent months. Refugees who fled into neighboring Botswana told of beatings, rape and torture by government forces, and of villagers being denied food supplies as a result of a stringent 18-hour curfew and a ban on transport in and out of the region. The bishops' report, which was given to the government two weeks before it was released publicly last week, stung the Prime Minister. Mugabe, 60, who was brought up a Catholic and educated at the Catholic Kutama Mission, wished the churchmen "success in their prayers," but declared that "the task of running the country belongs to the government."
A special combat unit, the Fifth Brigade, acquired an especially notorious reputation. Last year, with their North Korean advisers the killing of the Ndebele on the attacks on the white farmers increased. Although only 75 white farmers have been killed this year, there are reports of several thousand Ndebele deaths
The charges have been difficult to verify, since foreign journalists have been barred from the troubled area and the local press is government controlled. Reporters have had to rely on sporadic accounts by refugees and occasional covert excursions into the curfew area to talk to locals.These atrocities continued from independence in 1980 until 1987. Then begin again in large scale when he is up for reelection. Old Allister Sparks should have done better homework. The Matabeleland cleansing of the Ndebele continued for almost 10 years after he first took office.
I still stick with always bonkers. :)

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 11:06 pm
The first part was from a report given at the Zimbabwe Bishop's Conference given in 1984, with the follow up to 1987
This should have been its own paragraph as it wasn't part of the report:

"These atrocities continued from independence in 1980 until 1987. Then begin again in large scale when he is up for reelection. Old Allister Sparks should have done better homework. The Matabeleland cleansing of the Ndebele continued for almost 10 years after he first took office.
I still stick with always bonkers. :)"

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 11:15 pm

Thank you, Michael. Always bonkers it is.

Wednesday May 14, 2008, 11:24 pm
Marena- I hope when I first said always bonkers you didn't take that as directed at you. No such intent was meant if it seemed implied. As an FYI for all - its not the 1990's & 2000's he's worried about being tried for by the ICC, because that was directed at the white tribe of Zimbabwe Its for his hand in the slaughter in Matebeleland in the 80's.

Vrede!

Thursday May 15, 2008, 4:13 am
No offemnce taken Michael. I knew what you meant.