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Fairness of the Democratic Nomination Process?


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: candidates, democrats, HillaryClinton )

Billye
- 3730 days ago - talkleft.com
35 Primaries with 33.8 million voters have Clinton leading in both votes and delegates.Caucuses with 1.1 million voters gave Obama 300,000 more votes and 193 more delegates.That the caucus system is neither fair nor representative.



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Comments

Billye T (386)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 7:58 am

This information is widely known but yet the DNC, the Superdelegates, and Obama and his supporters want to keep on acting like no body wants Hillary and that nobody has voted for her. Some of these people are living in their own little world and just can't see the forest for the trees. Hillary supporters are out here everywhere!!! We're here for the world to see and hear!!! And we are NOT going away!!!!!

I think it's only fair to point out that folks should be able to support who they want without fear of being stoned to death on the public square with a crowd cheering on the murderers. Which is exactly how many of the Hillary supporters feel has been done to them, especially around this care2 site.

The people of America have a constitutional right to vote for whomever they want, and should also expect that the candidates are legal candidates running a legal campaign. There have been some questions about the legalities and illegalities that have occurred in this election. There will be MUCH more about this brought out as this election progresses.

Hillary supporters have been cheated and we aren't going to take it lying down! We're here and we're here to stay until our voices and our rights have been reinstated!!! That's not a threat, THAT'S A PROMISE!!!!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 8:17 am
yes, we have been cheated...I think Obama & his camp plant these discouraging messages about Hillary...all she gets is bashing from the press...it is not fair that the super delagates get to over rule our votes...noted thanks Billye
 

Past Member (2031)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 8:24 am
I heard on The Today Show this morning "that Obama only needs 40 more delegates to wrap it up." I can't believe my ears. THIS IS WITHOUT COUNTING FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN.
 

Nina T (100)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 8:45 am
If is my understanding that neither Obama nor Hillary can reach the 2025 voted delegates needed to win the nomination until all votes are counted in August. They can't count the superdelegates in this equation. So how does Obama "wrap it up" any time soon?
 

Lee G (15)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 8:59 am
Noted and thanks to you Billye.

Hillary was hit hard at the beginning of this process because she was already vetted, ad nauseum. By the time the press started hitting Obama, the DNC had already chosen him and did everything in their considerable power to deflect anything from really reaching the thinking public.

Superdelegates are mostly elected officials and so have a vested interest in voting for the DNC perfered candidate. There is no way that their vote should be counted any differently than those of registered citizens. This is not only unfair, it's unAmerican.

Since many states do not allow write in votes, the fact that the DNC will offer a candidate chosen by only 48 states seems to be unconstitutional.
Bush is slowly erroding our civil liberities but the DNC is now denying us our constitutional rights.

It seems this country has changed to "Of the Party, By the Party and For the Party", citizens be damned. Well this is MY country and I'll vote for whomever I d*mn well please. I have a mind and I use it. I won't be hearded or bullied, I don't have to be; I'm an American!
 

Esther S (45)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 9:29 am
That was very informative but it is not something that we will hear on the media. The super delegates should consider those facts and they should also consider the fact that when many of the people voted in the early primary elections they had never heard any negative things about Obama. They had heard a lot of negative things about Hillary and thought that it would be easier for him to win in the general election. I wonder if they all would vote the same way now as they did then. I also think that if Obama becomes the official candidate because of the unfair way the candidate has been chosen, the Democrat Party is going to suffer the consequences.
 

Melissa Dawson (284)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 10:41 am
After what could be called a joke with the last few elections, and now what the DNC has done, we NEED to re-vamp our whole voting system. THe people are NOT being heard or represented. This country no longer belongs to the people.. and it will be a fight to get it back. I am up for it.. are you?
Hillary '08 in Michigan!
 

Melissa Dawson (284)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 10:46 am
Cool, I haven't been able to post for DAYS! It looks like care2 has finally fixed me!
Voting for Hillary come He!! or High Water in Michigan '08!
 

BK M (8)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 12:29 pm
Should Sen. Obama be held accountable for his possible violations of the US Constitution and the 27 Amendments?
The US Constitution was ratified on June 21, 1788
The first 10 Amendments were ratified on December 15, 1791

Sen. Obama has apparently forgotten The Oath or Affirmation to support the US Constitution and the 27 Amendments. Sen. Obama is a seating Senator, therefore he cannot oppose any Constitutionally legal election.

Article. VI Paragraph 3
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

What are the political repercussions to Sen. Obama for not recognizing the Florida and Michigan Primaries.

Amendments to the US Constitution
Article X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Each state has the sole right to hold primary election according each state’s law. Delegates may not count but the popular vote does. Senator Obama opposes both Florida and Michigan’s popular vote.

Amendment XV Section 1
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude—
Florida and Michigan have voters of all races and colors. Denying those voters vote is a violation of Amendment XV.

Amendment XIX
Passed by Congress June 4, 1919. Ratified August 18, 1920.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Florida and Michigan have voters of both Genders, denying their vote to count is a violation of Amendment XIX.
Amendment XXVI Section 1
Passed by Congress March 23, 1971. Ratified July 1, 1971.
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
Florida And Michigan have voters eighteen years of age and older, not agreeing to have the Michigan and Florida vote is a violation of Amendment XXXVI.

Sen. Obama is guilty of violating the Constitutional Rights of the States of Florida and Michigan.
Sen. Obama is also guilty of Racial, Gender and Age Discrimination.
 

Darlene K (356)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 2:42 pm
Well, you left me nothing to say...lol. I am very unsettled that I have family in combat, while many Democrats feel they can just vote on party loyalty or passion of a man's speech on "change"............, and I pray all my family return home safe and uninjured, as I am sure I will have to fight for legislation for better veterans benefits. Hillary Clinton is the only candidate that is available to best take on the job of President for the next four years, period. The Republicans have sabotaged this from the beginning and very cleverly. It worked, too.

The Republicans have manipulated this entire process with their corporate owned media, and scamming on absentee voting that are disputed and not counted. They have successfully driven a division in the Democratic Party. The DNC is moving forward like there is no problem. The American people are going to be the ones who suffer and that includes us.

At this point I am sick of the parties. I will NEVER vote Republican and Karl Rove should be addressed on issues the BBC has reported on. We the American people better demand an ACTUAL COUNT of these votes.
 

Mary Jane K (13)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 3:00 pm
BK would you please post this on on my news story, Clinton Supporters Count Too. Thanks
 

Mary Jane K (13)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 3:07 pm
This is down right scary, we have to change the system, we have to take our country back.......if we truly ever had it. I'm beginning to wonder now. Thank you so much for posting this Billye. This is something that every American should know.
 

Kathleen Opon (0)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 5:16 pm
This is a great article Billye. Noted and thanks so much. Why do I feel like crying?
 

Blue Bunting (855)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 9:12 pm
"What's particularly outrageous is that the Clinton campaign supported the calendar, and the sanctions against Michigan and Florida, until Clinton won those states and needed to have their delegations seated.

"Last August, when the DNC Rules Committee voted to strip Florida (and Michigan, if it persisted in clinging to its date) of its delegates, the Clinton delegates on the committee backed those sanctions. All 12 Clinton supporters on the committee supported the penalties. (The only member of the committee to vote against them was an Obama supporter from Florida.) Harold Ickes, a committee member, leading Clinton strategist and acknowledged master of the political game, said, "This committee feels very strongly that the rules ought to be enforced." Patty Solis Doyle, then Clinton's campaign manager, further affirmed the decision. "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process," she said, referring to the four states that the committee authorized to hold the first contests. "And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC-approved nominating calendar."

"Not a single Clinton campaign official or DNC Rules Committee member, much less the candidate herself, said at the time that the sanctions imposed on Florida or Michigan were in any way a patriarchal plot or an affront to democratic values. The threat that these rules posed to our fundamental beliefs was discovered only ex post facto -- the facto in question being Clinton's current need to seat the delegations whose seatings she had opposed when she thought she'd cruise to the nomination.

"Clinton's supporters have every right to demonstrate on Saturday, of course. But their larger cause is neither democracy nor feminism; it's situational ethics. To insist otherwise is to degrade democracy and turn feminism into the last refuge of scoundrels."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/27/AR2008052702553.html?referrer=digg

 

Kathleen Opon (0)
Wednesday May 28, 2008, 9:29 pm
So Blue, by your reasoning you should also be calling Obama a hypocrite for supporting Rev. Wright until it was politically beneficial to throw him under the bus, to make his deals with Rezko and then fluff them off as "boneheaded" when he gets called on it (to benefit himself politically), to accept funding from criminals and then donate it to charity when he (surprise!) finds out about their activities (to benefit himself politically). These people are running for the highest office in the United States and they both want to win.

Sometimes people actually change their minds when they know more about a situation (which is the excuse Obama and his supporters always use when he flip-flops). There have been times when my kids have gotten in trouble at school and I have supported whatever punishment was doled out by the teacher and then found out additional information that proved the kids hadn't actually been wrong and I have had to then go and dispute the punishment. It happens. Sometimes the "punishment" simply doesn't fit the "crime". Rigidity is not a sign of strength, as we have witnessed clearly with our current president.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 29, 2008, 6:17 am
the fact remains that new hampshire has been changing their primary date since '77 and hasn't been penalized once, to my recollection...
 

Marjorie G (29)
Thursday May 29, 2008, 10:07 pm
Hi All,Seems like I said something like the about the fairness thing a few days ago,although I didn't have the numbers.The caucus delegates,primary delegates and super delegates do not have to honor any choices they made in this process so far,From what I understand they have to in good concience have to nominate the person who has the most popular votes as well as the the electoral votes,and consider who can WIN against McCain.Hillary already has totally qualified to be nominated even without FL & MI and I would hope that they honor their obligation.
 

Eric Goodman (29)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:09 am
I am sorry Hillary is not going to be the nominee, she's gonna just have to be a senator, which offers an excellent chance to continue doing good things for her constituents. Maybe Barack will even put her on the supreme court. You Hillary supporters have got to stop with the conspiracy dribble. It's simply pathetic. She knew the rules before the game started and she did not say one darn thing about it until she saw a political advantage for herself. She is pressing purely political points for her own advantage and if the tables were turned her positions would also be different. She wants to INCLUDE MI and FL but she also conveniently does not count all of the people who came out to vote in caucuses - so how does that work? you only have democratic rights if you live in a primary state? I want my vote in Florida counted - for OBAMA! The party should have only stripped 1/2 the delegates from the start so that the candidates could have campaigned in the states and kept thier names on the ballot, but we can not go back in time now. I also want Clinton supporters to understand that there are a lot of people who love Hillary, and wish her no ill, but just see a better future for our country if we have Obama at the helm. I hope you can come around and help us accomplish some things that have waited far too long, like universal health care and ending the war in Iraq. Obama's plan includes a program to encourage states to fund paid leave for new parents - something my wife and I could really use since we are about to lose 1/2 our income when our 1st child is born. Obama's plan includes a rational transportation policy that will give us choices and reduce our dependence on oil. He has a good environmental record and will address global climate change vigorously. The democratic party has a chance to move this country forward. Many of us love the Clinton's, but we are democrats and we don't do family dynasties like the republicans do. Don't worry, we will have a woman in the white house, probably pretty soon. And she will be someone who has made her way to the top with skill and grace and intelligence. It's only a matter of having the right candidate at the right time. We did not reject Hillary because she is a woman or because she is not qualified, she certainly is, but what the country wants is to move forward, to turn the page on both the Bushes AND the Clintons. We want to get over all the divisiveness that has consumed the baby boom generation since Vietnam. We need to have a fresh perspective, and the MAJORITY of democrats believe that Barack Obama can take the country in a new direction. He wants us to listen to each other again, to stop the personal attack politics and focus on the great issues of our time. He has a vision of a better America and he wants to make the case for a course of action in Washington D.C. that will help us achieve our potential. He wants to bring people together so we can focus on solutions that expand our choices and give everyone the opportunity to succeed. Bill Clinton came to the presidency as a New Democrat, a more conservative, middle of the road type of southern democrat not like the very liberal new deal democrats of the past. hillary is also of this conservative democrat variety, but Barack Obama is a true progressive democrat, capable of presenting our vision with respect for those who disagree, but with the strength of purpose needed to carry the day and win some converts to our positions. Hillary, while she is a very good legislator, draws the ire of the opposition in such a way that makes it very difficult to have a civilized discussion or to change people's minds. I've watched Republicans and Independents be swayed by Obama. He has what it takes to bring our country together again. He will shift the center left, just like Reagan shifted it right. He will appoint judges that protect reproductive rights and human rights and civil rights. I know this is a hard loss for Clinton supporters as it would have been the other way around, but please don't take this personally or buy this conspiracy junk that is being dished out. People had to make a choice. It was a tough call. We had some really good candidates. It was a very close decision, but in the end more people supported Obama when you count EVERYBODY. Please come together with us and help make our country better. your voices, your votes and your participation are absolutely necessary for a democratic victory. Don't be like the Nader voters who let Bush get the white house when we needed Al Gore in there. Solidarity is an absolute necessity. If Clinton had won I would have supported her, and now I very respectfully ask for you to give your support to Barack Obama.
 

Blue Bunting (855)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:26 am
Hill and Bill Clinton ALWAYS want to parse their words and STREEEEEEETCH the rules to suit themselves:



"Not a single Clinton campaign official or DNC Rules Committee member, much less the candidate herself, said at the time that the sanctions imposed on Florida or Michigan were in any way a patriarchal plot or an affront to democratic values. The threat that these rules posed to our fundamental beliefs was discovered only ex post facto -- the facto in question being Clinton's current need to seat the delegations whose seatings she had opposed when she thought she'd cruise to the nomination.

Too late, Hillary lost.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:34 am
nice try blue... hehehe
 

Lee G (15)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:58 am
I am a Floridian, I am a Democrat, I am an American.
Give me half my vote and I’ll be half Democrat.
Come November my vote will reflect my other half!

Punish the State Party, not the voters!
 

gee string (4)
Friday May 30, 2008, 9:32 am
I would like to say that I personally do not think that caucuses are fair. My mom is disabled and would not be able to go to one for that reason and what about those with small children and those who work? I am also told that in Texas people are allowed to go to caucuses and vote as well. I am not sure if this is true, but I thought we were supposed to get only one vote, what's up with that? If I lived in Michigan or Florida and I had voted I would be quite upset with this whole process.
 

Nancy M (169)
Friday May 30, 2008, 10:09 am
While I can certainly agree that the Democratic nomination process has been a mess, I find this article has a flaw. It is about caucuses versus primaries, and is claiming that caucuses are not as good for the nomination process. However, it compares states that have both, and concludes that people don't attend the caucuses. If my state had both, I wouldn't attend the caucus either. But some states have only a caucus! If my state had only a caucus, I certainly would attend! You can't really make that comparison the way they do.

So what is the asnwer? Are you all saying that states shouldn't be allowed to have a caucus? Are you saying those votes shouldn't count? What about the republican nominations from those states?


How about also comparing states that allow only party members to vote in the primary, party members and independents, versus anyone?

But yes, the changes in the primary dates have been a mess. But Michigan and Florida should have thought of that before they moved their primaries.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 30, 2008, 12:10 pm
there were six states that moved their dates and only two states, michigan and florida were penalized... new hampshire has been moving its date since 1977 without penalty...
 

Kathleen Opon (0)
Friday May 30, 2008, 12:44 pm
Eric, why should we now bow down to Obama (who has not won yet) when the Democratic party has abandoned Hillary and her supporters, as well as ALL the voters in Florida and Michigan.

From what I understand there isn't an accurate count kept of voters at the caucuses. If somebody knows how they work, please enlighten me. I think that is why Hillary is not counting them - because there are no actual numbers to count. My personal opinion about caucuses is that they should be eliminated and we should have a uniform way of electing our nominees. How can they even be legal if they don't have a verifiable count of the votes?
 

Kathleen Hilliker (293)
Friday May 30, 2008, 4:44 pm
Once again, we ALL know Blue is on a one-woman campaign here on Care2NN to slander Hillary Clinton. Will we let this happen? NO! Do we care that she's talking about something THIS article has nothing to do about? NO! Are we all way more intelligent and informed than she'd like us to be?? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!

C'mon, it doesn't take a 5th grader to totally understand that our entire election process in this country is in shambles and that from day-2-day, how someone wins, with what number someone wins, and who likes whom it takes to win is how we seem to be electing presidents anymore. Sad, but true!
 

Eric Goodman (29)
Friday May 30, 2008, 5:40 pm
Kathleen,
I am not asking you to bow down to Barack Obama. I am asking you respectfully, as a person of conscience to support the Democratic nominee for president. I will vote for Hillary Clinton if something changes between now and november. But in this process I support Mr. Obama. He has a bold progressive vision to help the working class find a sustainable path to peace and prosperity. It is based in a deep understanding of this country's strengths and weaknesses. I like Hillary and Bill. I think they did a lot of good for this country. I wish they could have done more, and I think that in the Senate, or in a new administration, or on the supreme court, they still can make tremendous contributions. Unfortunately, Hillary Clinton made a series of poor judgments which cost her my vote. She voted to authorize the War in Iraq. She calculated that this was the right way to vote, she drank the kool-aid and it has cost our country blood and limbs and mental anguish - and treasure and our standing in the world. She chose not to run for president in 2004, meaning she either calculated a bush win and her own run in 08, or a democrat win and not running until 12. It seems to me she bet her political chips on Kerry losing and now she is saying Obama will lose, so apparently she thinks that only democrats named Clinton can win. I do not believe that. I think the country is ready to move forward. We are ready to hear the truth about how we have ignored issues of critical importance that now demand our attention.
I was playing tennis one day, it seemed a pretty safe sport. I tripped, fell and hit my head on the concrete. I "blacked out" for about 7 hours. I was in a hospital for 18 hours. I did not have health insurance. The bill was $6000.
Universal health care is something that John McCain will not provide for this nation, even though most civilized countries do. He will not support my two best friends that teach elementary kids in tough neighborhoods. He will not properly fund public transit which is my professional passion. He will not help states grant paid leave benefits to young mothers and fathers. He will negotiate free trade deals that are bad for workers and the environment. He will cut social security and medicare benefits. He will appoint judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade. John McCain will commit our troops to unecessary and destructive military actions that fail to make us safer.
Barack Obama will work hard to offer a better future to this country.
All I can ask is for you please to consider giving him your support and your vote. And if you listen to him, and to your fellow Americans you will see that we are not telling you what to do, we are asking you - what must be done? and if we agree, then let us do it together.
 

Darlene K (356)
Friday May 30, 2008, 5:52 pm
Senator Obama will NEVER get MY vote, and he will NEVER get my military family's vote. WE VOTE FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT THE PARTY.
 

Kathleen Hilliker (293)
Friday May 30, 2008, 6:11 pm
Eric - first mistake you're making, you're preaching to people who are FOR HILLARY CLINTON. Maybe you'd be a bit more successful if you found someone to preach to who is for the same candidate as you are. You're NOT....repeat, NOT, going to change anyone's mind as long as HILLARY CLINTON is running for the democratic nominee for the president of the United States. I do believe she is the most experienced and IMMEDIATELY ready candidate to run this country, and no amount or GIGANTIC posts that ramble on and on and on is going to change most of these (WOMEN's) minds. Trust me, in the last 18 months, we heard it all, lived through it all, and supported HILLARY 100%! I'm not sure even the most powerfully, persuasive person on Earth is going to change our minds. You're wasting time, energy & it'll only disappoint you beyond words. HA!

On the other hand, I'm certainly most respectful of yet another man coming online to SUPPORT a man for the presidency. It doesn't surprise me, nor does it bother me. It's your right. You do as you wish, but please don't expect me to give you any sympathy when you preach to a deaf choir.

I'm not sure if you've looked around your city, your neighborhood, your life, but I can tell you with the troubles our country is in both right here at HOME and around the world, it's going to take a HECK of a lot more than a visionary.....a progressive wizard to get down and dirty! Do you actually think LIFE IS FAIR? Are you really looking through some rose-colored glasses I've taken off years ago? Life is tough, and life is dirty, and we'd better have a candidate who can get down and play in the mud just as deeply as ...say China, or Iran, or So. Korea.....or the emergency rooms of most of our healthcare facilities!

Obama is green. Obama is UNPREPARED. Obama is UNDER-QUALIFIED to lead this country. God help us all.
 

Lee G (15)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:00 pm
Eric,
I respectfully ask why I should vote for someone I feel is too inexperienced and naďve simply because of party affiliation. I refuse to vote for John McCain and I can’t, in good conscience, vote for Senator Obama. John McCain has sold his principles for the nomination, who knows who he will sell out to in the White House. Senator Obama’s inexperience and naiveté could prove fatal for this country.
I am a mother and a grandmother first, an American second and down the list is a Democrat. Because of who and what I am, I simply can’t vote for (IMO) the lesser of two evils.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 30, 2008, 8:42 pm
Dar writes:

"Senator Obama will NEVER get MY vote, and he will NEVER get my military family's vote. WE VOTE FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT THE PARTY."

That makes two of us. I wish I would have become more enlightened months ago. I've already been getting hate mail (and threats) from a few Obama supporters but I could care less.
 

Lee G (15)
Friday May 30, 2008, 9:48 pm
Oh Michael, please don't take it personally. We all have opinions and like to voice them. It's just some voices are a bit louder than others.

One other thing; never regret what you didn't know. Rejoice in what you do know ... and research the rest :).

Lee
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 30, 2008, 9:51 pm
Thank you for the encouragement Lee. I will remember your advice and follow it.
 

BK M (8)
Saturday May 31, 2008, 3:52 am
I have a pen, if Hillary does not get the nomination, I will write in hillary. I will not vote for a candidate who throws his supporters under the bus with his typical white grandmother. I am from Michigan voter, I voted in the primary here, our votes do not count to Obama now, why should he get them in November if he is the democratic candidate. Voting for Obama is like voting for a republican.
 

Billye T (386)
Saturday May 31, 2008, 8:33 am

Eric, I feel that had Obama been there at his desk to place more votes he too would have made as many "bad judgment calls" as any other politician who votes on stuff all the time. But it was clearly mentioned by John Edwards, of all people, that Barack Obama either wasn't there to vote or merely took the safe way out and voted "Present" over 100 time!!! So who can really say if he's a supreme decision maker or not.

Also, he hasn't been in office long enough to have developed a lengthy voting record to be judged upon.

Yes, Hillary Clinton voted "for the war" as it is put so often, but my memory is that 90% of the people of this nation wanted that war as well, (not saying you were one of them, I'm just making a point.) There were signs up saying that if you didn't want to go to war to stop terrorism that you were un-American. There were funny little songs all over the radio about Saddam and "the terrorists." There were more jokes than would fill a 400 page book. So for anybody to come out now and criticize Hillary for voting "for the war" is not being fair or accurate. She and the others who voted for the war were only doing what "We The People" wanted them to do. We the people had been given fake information just as the politicians had been given.

So now we have the 90% of the people who "wanted the war" coming back and talking bad about Hillary as if they themselves wouldn't have done the same thing. Hillary followed the people's desire as she has always done, Obama didn't. Hillary actually voted for stuff, Obama didn't. If Obama gets into office, will he be a president of the people and for the people? His record, as short and hollow as it is, doesn't prove that he will be.

Michael C., thanks so much!! You have made my day!!!
 

Kathleen Opon (0)
Saturday May 31, 2008, 9:50 am
Eric said: "I am asking you respectfully, as a person of conscience to support the Democratic nominee for president."

And if Hillary is that nominee I will. But, as a person of conscience, I will not vote for a candidate I feel is not qualified and whose lack of his own conscience and experience terrify me just because he is a Democrat! In my over 30 years of voting I have always voted my conscience - and usually those votes were for Democrats, but not always. And the Republican candidate is not the only other choice. This country is more important to me than any party. And, in good conscience, I believe Obama would damage this country even more than McCain (who I will not be voting for either).

As Kathy said, your efforts here are futile because #1 - we still believe Hillary can win the nomination and #2 - if she doesn't, most of us will still not vote for Obama.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 31, 2008, 10:30 am
Billye writes:

"“I feel that had Obama been there at his desk to place more votes he too would have made as many "bad judgment calls" as any other politician who votes on stuff all the time.”

What really is surprising is how his mistakes and inexperience keep being overlooked. That’s one thing that bothered me when I was an Obama supporter. He had a complete lack of experience and I really didn’t know how he really stood on some issues. Some of his speeches didn’t sound sincere; they sounded coached at times.

He really dropped the ball on the debates and Hillary actually won every single one of those debates. You can’t have a leader who gets his head handed to him every time he debates.

”Michael C., thanks so much!! You have made my day!!!”

Thank you. I am glad and I feel much better myself.
 

Eric Goodman (29)
Saturday May 31, 2008, 9:42 pm
I understand Clinton supporters are feeling hurt, dissappointed, cheated, disenfranchised, betrayed - maybe even bitter. This has been a messy process, especially since 2 states, including my own, decided not to adhere to the rules. For the person who posted the Constitution, sorry but the constitution makes absolutely no mention of political parties. In fact, the parties are private organizations and they make up thier own rules. If they wanted to exclude women or blacks or blue eyed people like me, they can. Thank God we don't do that.
To all the women (and men) who are fervent Hillary supporters, I applaud your efforts. I was a Hillary supporter at one time. I respect her and I admire her, but because of the war vote, I can not support her. I protested in 2002 and 2003, I called, I wrote, I stood in front of the white house and screamed at the top of my lungs until the police threatened to arrest me. I did end up getting arrested. I knew that the crap they told us about WMD was B.S. and She did too. Deep down, we all did. but so many were scared and caught up in the moment that they went along with the stampede. It is precisely because Hillary is such a respected figure, a senior stateswoman, an experienced leader, that many of us held out hope she would lead the fight against the war. Not only did she fail us miserably at the time of the vote when she alone may have been able to rally a strong opposition, but for two years afterward she continued to present herself as a hawk. It wasn't until the whole situation got miserable in 05-06 that she got firmly back on our side. At the time I lived in Wisconsin and was extremely proud of my Senator Russ Feingold and my Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin - who had the heart and mind to vote against the worst measures of that time, including the Patriot Act and the War...
For the people who say they can't vote for Barack Obama, I will ask you to take a break from this campaign, after the convention. If you wish to campaign for Hillary right up until then, that is your right and I respect it. But when the two parties have chosen their candidates, take a good look. If you want to consider 3rd parties do that too. If you don't feel compelled to vote, thank goodness, in our country, no one will force you to. But If you care about Roe v. Wade..... If you care about the environment..... If you care about health..... If you care about civil rights and human rights and about addressing issues of race and gender in this nation......
Then think of all the very experienced, caring, intelligent women and men that would be appointed to oversee the federal beauracracy in a Democrat administration. For the most part it is exactly the same group of talented democrats, no matter who is at the top. And it is the same group of incompetent fools that will be "leading" every federal department with McCain, even if you think he's a great guy.
Let me confess, I am also a little worried about Obama's lacks - not a governor, not in the military, not decades in DC. But he knows politics at the grassroots level in the cities and states where we are in dire need of help. He understands the struggles of everyday folks who have to work two jobs or have two incomes to get by, who have to choose between work and thier kids, between thier health and filling up the gas tank. He knows because he has lived it. He knows about the third world, not from a book, but from his own childhood living in Indonesia. He knows about paying off college loans because he just finished paying his own recently. He knows about respect for the elderly because he had amazing role models in his family from the WW2 generation. He understands our dreams for our children because he has those same dreams for his two daughters. He understnads us, and his style of governing is not to tell people what to do. His approach is to get people talking to each other, to help them find common ground and take action. He is good at it.
I fell comfortable taking a chance on someone who will take chances, who will do what is in his heart, not what the politically correct thing is. When Hillary came out for a gas tax holiday, she directly threatened my job as a public servant paid by those tax dollars. She threatened my ability to help people find a more efficient, environmentally friendly way to get to work. She threatened the mobility of the young, poor, elderly, and disabled who depend on transit. That was a poiltical pander and it deeply offended me. When you start talking about eliminating 300,000 good paying American union jobs just so you can rustle up votes - well, you lost mine.
I worry about someone who has been too involved, who has too much experience, too many inside contacts, and is too good at playing politics, and not so good at winning policy solutions (note the failure on healthcare in 1994) If she failed then, why will she succeed now? If she believed faulty intelligence then, why will she not be duped and manipulated by the CIA as president? If she could not win decisively, unequivocally, with massive tallies against Barack who you claim has so many glaringly obvious faults, how can she possibly defeat McCain? If you beleive it's the media, then you are saying Americans are all sheep. I don't beleive that. I believe that you are intelligent, that you support Hillary based on your values and judgement, not what some TV flake told you. I have just explained to you why I can't vote for Hillary, and if you noticed, it has to do with policy issues, not her gender or color. I have voted for women, I have volunteered and campaigned for women, and I pray to God someday to let me vote for a woman for president, but not just because she is a she, but because she reflects my values and my better judgement. Hillary Clinton is very close to that person, but when I look at it, issue by issue, and when I look at the personalities and think about who can really change the culture of greed and corruption that has taken over DC, I think it's Barack. I think that because he honestly admits his weaknesses. He does not claim to be able to solve all the problems of the world on day one. He admits that complex issues, divisive issues, will take time and effort to resolve. He asks people to help, because none of us can do it alone. He has more small and individual donors than anyone ever has, and that army of supporters will not fade. We are growing every day. We are getting stronger. When we have a concern about something Barack says, we don't fear that it is the end of the world, we don't laugh and say he is now ruined. We tell the campaign when we disagree. I spoke up fiercely about seating the delegates from my current home state of FL. I told him them it was stupid to remove his name from the ballot in MI, and I said we should seat thier delegates exactly as the vote stood. I will keep telling them when I agree or disagree. That is democracy, it's about being engaged in a polite, but vigorous debate... If the republicans can't be civil, people will see that and I hope, they will reject it. We have to stop being so heated, so argumentative about tangential points or personality issues, or people's private lives. The discussion should focus on policy and governing ability. Yes, perhaps Obama is a bit untested, "green" as someone said. And I certainly see the need for him to have well qualified people around him - perhaps including Mrs. Clinton. I know his picks will be better than McCain's. Let me also say, you have not heard me attack Mr. McCain personally here, I have stated what I think his policies would be, and obviously I disagree with them, but I like the guy. He has earned the respect of America, he has done a lot of good and has followed his convictions. That's great. I don't understand why in politics we have to end up hating the person who we are running against. Even if we are not victorious, we need to remember that in a democracy like ours, there is no absolute monarch. There are many centers of power that are always engaged in a balancing struggle. It is our right to participate in that struggle and to the extent that we do so in a civil and courteous way, we are all stronger for it. But when we cut each other down spuriously or maliciously, then we are all degraded. If you can't vote for Barack, so be it, but if you can, I will very, very, very much appreciate your help, your ideas, your dreams and your effort to make our country better.
 

Lee G (15)
Sunday June 1, 2008, 8:31 am
I am a Clinton supporter, true; I am a Floridian, also true; but at the forefront of the list of "I am"'s is I am an American. Since most states have taken away a voters right to write in the candidate of their choice, there is an implied duty to make sure that every legally cast vote is counted. The right of a party does not supersede the right of the voter, especially when a vote is halved simply to "protect" another states presumed "right" to vote first. If the party system can get away with doing what they've done then excluding blue eyed people can't be far behind.
My support of Senator Clinton is based on research, deep contemplation and a considerable amount of analysis. She is the candidate I support. And FYI, Senator Obama's speech against the war was given without the information privileged to the Congress (Obama was at the state level). Even Obama admitted that he would have voted for the war if he had seen the "intelligence" reports. Since his election to the Senate he has voted the same as Clinton. But that's not why I feel the way I do.
I am more than a little worried about Senator Obama's lack of experience and poor judgment. Quite frankly, it terrifies me. With all his good intentions, he doesn't have the knowledge or "connections" to get anything done outside of his political supporters "pet projects". His lack of judgment in choosing friends and associates does not bode well for his appointments or international relations. I don't hate Obama but I feel strongly that he would do more harm to this country than he would do good.
I neither support nor will vote for John McCain. Though an American hero, I've watched as he sold out his principles to gain the nomination. I disagree with his ideas for this county but, if he had held to his convictions, I would have looked at him closer.
The 3 branches of government, set up as a check and balance, have become so intermingled that there is very little balance left.
It is not our right, it is our duty to participate. Had the founding fathers been civil and courteous we would still be an English protectorate.
I'm not cutting anyone down but I am, and I will, fight for this country in the only way I know how and I won't be silenced in the name of unity around a party or candidate I can not and do not support. That is my right as an American.
 

Elisabeth Samuelssonapelgren (0)
Tuesday June 3, 2008, 8:10 am
I hope that all you americans who have been voting for the right candidate,mrs Clinton,will vote for mr McCain or not at all as a protest against your system and the favorised mr Obama.Vote blank maybe is the best.It may seem cool with a black ,younger president but he´s not fit to run your country yet.Then it´s better,after all with a republican again even if´it´s not what I really want.
 

Elisabeth Samuelssonapelgren (0)
Tuesday June 3, 2008, 8:10 am
I hope that all you americans who have been voting for the right candidate,mrs Clinton,will vote for mr McCain or not at all as a protest against your system and the favorised mr Obama.Vote blank maybe is the best.It may seem cool with a black ,younger president but he´s not fit to run your country yet.Then it´s better,after all with a republican again even if´it´s not what I really want.
 

Melissa Dawson (284)
Saturday June 21, 2008, 6:18 pm
Neither Obama nor Mcain will get my vote. Hades will freeze over first.
 

Kathleen Opon (0)
Sunday June 22, 2008, 10:17 am
Eric wrote: "I fell comfortable taking a chance on someone who will take chances, who will do what is in his heart, not what the politically correct thing is."

I hate to break it to you, but you are being deluded. Obama does NOT take chances, which is why his voting record is so full of "Present" votes. Instead of doing "what is in his heart" when it comes to voting on controversial issues (such as abortion rights) he does the politically safe thing by voting "present" intstead of taking a stand.

Every move Obama has made (including his stint at "community service" and most recently filling sand bags in a flooded area in Illinois) has been calculated to advance him politically. He is the biggest sham to come into politics in AGES.
 

Kathleen Hilliker (293)
Monday June 23, 2008, 3:01 am
Omgosh! People love writing bible-length comments to one article here! Sheesh, get a LIFE! Put that anger and preaching to USE somewhere! Do you really think writing CHAPTERS here matter? The fact is, there's Hillary Clinton supporters who still believe she's the best person for the job of President of the USA. Just on Meet the Press this week - they were hitting both McCain and Obama HARD for swinging back and forth - unable to make ANY decisions regarding the issues at hand. And, guess what? The "men" were all talking about how definite and clear Hillary's intentions were and how she'd probably care them through with strength and backbone. Now where the heck were THEY while she was in the running? I betcha a whole lot of other Americans are soon going to be feeling that way when they actually sit down and listen to the uncertainty and spineless proposals BOTH Obama and McCain are pussy-footing around with in the next several months! AMERICA, YOU GOT IT WRONG! BIG TIME!!
 
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