Friday July 3, 2009, 2:10 pm
But what IS our 'new climate' going to BE?

Thank you, Kit, for bringing up such a frightening point--how can we accurately predict the Darwinian choices of the plant world?

Will the plant world eradicate US, and continue to flourish in a unusable forms to US--is te llegacy that companies like Monsanto have left for us?
or will they become giant Venus fly-traps, as in 'The little Shop of horrors"?!?

hi dee ho ho ho! xo Namaste!

Friday July 3, 2009, 3:55 pm
Kit, did you see the article on the newly discovreed plant in Israel that makes its" own water? Great articlkes>
Tks.
Gayla

Friday July 3, 2009, 11:29 pm
Sounds like a great in for Monsanto to make the "perfect" food! Perhaps that is why our governments are so slow in response since they own half of Monsanto!

Saturday July 4, 2009, 11:23 am
What "new climate"?
The June 2009 temperature change was 0.00C
http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/

We are cooling off again.

Saturday July 4, 2009, 11:32 am
Kit,

Thank you for posting this very important link about Global Warming and Climate change!

It should be noted that you do not blindly copy and paste entire articles. You do not quote the same articles over and over. You do not chase scientists around on Care2 arguing with them. You do not quote old pseudo articles and you do not create multiple Care2 accounts in order to maliciously attack other people!

(Heck, you have a college degree or two; even know how to spell for the most part... at least your 100 times better at spelling than I am!)

It is now very clear that the information being presented by the article you posted, including similar articles found in various respected Scientific Journals, indicate that Global Warming and Climate Change is no longer an 'Opinion' or being 'Disputed' by the 'Main Stream Scientific Community!'

It is also clear that the links your post point to are in fact from and written by informed, caring and educated people who have observable facts on their side!

It is unfortunate that the minority that continues to dispute this growing mountain of irrefutable evidence, more than likely believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause!

Again, thank you for posting this wonderful article that is rich with information, verifiable facts and shows that our world can not continue down this suicidal and unsustainable path. If we have trouble growing food... then we are in big trouble

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Saturday July 4, 2009, 3:55 pm
Thanks Judy, that is the best comment I have seen!

Saturday July 4, 2009, 4:18 pm
Hey Judy, check out temperatures on your own. Come on down to Texas, it's hotter and drier each year over the past 20 years. Because some areas are cooler...does not mean there is no warming. Basic earth science, the general circulation should be enough to make any one understand that while some areas will be warmer and drier others will therefore, be cooler and have more moisture.

Sorry Judy --- your fighting some thing much bigger and more real then the few Peter's crying wolf that you depend on to make your arguments. So AGAIN... even if you were right, where is the harm in being careful and cautious with our long term abuse of our planet? But again you will not answer this or any other question of substance. You must depend on questionable sources and copy and paste.

Saturday July 4, 2009, 5:41 pm
Kit,

Once again I must thank you for providing irrefutable evidence by reputable sources that do not lie about there education, experience or specialties.

As you may know, I am good at tracing people down and can discover a tremendous amount of information in a very short time.

So... (Clearing Throat)... Let us look at... (Flexing Fingers)... and see what we can learn about... (Rolling Eyes In Disbelief)... the famous 'Rocket Scientist Dr. David Evans... (I Am Really Laughing Now!)

First... let us read his own words as to why he claims to be a "ROCKET SCIENTIST!"

"In US academic and industry parlance, "rocket scientist" means anyone who has completed a PhD in one of the hard sciences at one of the top US institutions. The term arose for people who *could* do rocket science, not those who literally build rockets.Thus the term "rocket scientist" means someone with a PhD in physics, electrical engineering, or mathematics (or perhaps a couple of other closely related disciplines), from MIT, Stanford, Caltech, and maybe a few other institutions."

He goes on to say:

"I did a PhD in electrical engineering at Stanford in the 1980s. Electrical engineering is your basic high tech degree, because most high technology spawned from electrical information technology. I specialized in signal processing, maths, and statistics".

He claims a PhD in Electrical Engineering and his claim to fame is as a statistician!

Has he ever worked for a space agency? NO! Has he ever worked on a rocket? NO! Does he know anything about rockets? Well yes... he watched the Space Shuttle Launch on his TV set in Australia!

Does he have any peer reviewed articles on Global Warming or Climate Change published? NO... According to his own resume, Evans has not published a single peer-reviewed research paper on the subject of climate change. Evans published only a single paper in 1987 in his career and it is unrelated to climate change!

Does Dr. Evans know anything about climate models? No... he clearly states that he is not a climate modeler!

Did Dr. Evans write an article titled, "No Smoking Hot Spot" that was published in The Australian in June, 2008? Yes... he wrote an article for a Newspaper... which was thoroughly debunked by Tim Lambert, a computer scientist at the University of New South Wales!

Kit... I want to thank you for posting intelligent, well written articles!

Kit... I want to thank you for posting meaningful links to articles that are trying to help our world change for the better!

Kit... I want to thank you for not creating multiple care2 accounts and using them to post nice comments about yourself!

Kit... I want to thank you for caring about our world and trying to make a difference through education!

Kit... you are doing this and more while facing challenges that is not my place to talk about... but I do know what you are going through and you are a wonderful person who is trying to make a difference!

Thank you for posting this link to an article that brings up important issues... with One-Billion People already starving... the article you posted can not be disputed by anyone who cares about people!

If I could send you a thousand green stars... I would. You have earned them!

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Saturday July 4, 2009, 6:01 pm
Kit,

Here is an interview with Professor Barry Brook... debunking Dr Evans:

Dr Evans doesn't know what he is talking about!

Now... if you want a good laugh... Here is Dr David Evans:

For a good laugh call Dr. Evans (Please keep in mind... he lied about his qualifications!)

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Saturday July 4, 2009, 6:29 pm
Your first link comes back here and is really sillyand typical of the stupidities employed by warmists when they try discrediting skeptics.. He doesn't lie about his qualifications. "Rocket scientist" is a term often used for someone with degrees in electrical engineering...which he has.

Your second link is a very good interview with Dr. Evans which you obviously didn't listen to because it refers to Dr. Evans background and explains how it is applicable to climate modeling work....which is what he did for the Australian Government's "Greenhouse Office"

Typical Warmist misrepresentation, but this time your evidence works against you..

Saturday July 4, 2009, 6:56 pm
Kit,

Sorry about the link... I was distracted!

Here is the link that I was talking about.... Dr Evans doesn't know what he is talking about!

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Saturday July 4, 2009, 7:18 pm
Kit,

Reading the links that you post; reading your comments; seeing your passion and concern for our world and the bleak future we face... were you ever an activist against the Nuclear Industry?

It doesn't really matter if you did or didn't... but I have noticed that there are two types of activists that fought against the Nuclear Industry!

Based on your articles, links and the stories you have posted... it is obvious that you belong in the first category of Activists. Which by definition include qualities like intelligence; able to see both sides of the issue; able to see the big picture; able to see the micro picture; educated... and have foresight!

Then there was the other group... that really didn't do that much... but they really tell a good story. They lacked foresight. They can't see the micro or macro picture. The never made a lasting contribution to society... about the only thing the did was take a stick and some cardboard and made signs!

The more I think about it... you are not a number 2 activist... you are a first class activist who is smart, intelligent, kind, caring, has foresight and the ability to comprehend reports by scientists!

Your a good person!

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Saturday July 4, 2009, 9:44 pm
{{{ 1) There is plenty of evidence that global warming has been occurring recently.
2) There is ample evidence that carbon emissions causes warming and that the level of atmospheric carbon dioxide is increasing.
3) But there is no evidence that carbon dioxide emissions are the main cause of the recent global warming. }}}
That's one of most rediculous ways to nitpick I've ever read!

Let's apply that same phony denialist reasoning to evolution:

1) There's plenty of evidence that natural selection works to change lines of organisms over time.
2) There is ample evidence that species that existed in the past are now extinct while having simularities to species now living.
3) But there is NO evidence that new species evolve from ones that that are now extinct.

In both cases, statements one and two lead naturally to statement three, except the opposite is true. Statements one and two are the EVIDENCE for statement three!

Dr. David Evans is a denialist fraud!

Saturday July 4, 2009, 10:57 pm
COMING FROM YOU, BEING CALLED A "denialist fraud" is a compliment.

It means the good doctor has hit the nail on the head.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to support the now blasted hypothesis of man-made global warming.

YOU HAVE TO PROVE THE HYPOTHESIS. Not only was iT not proven...it can not be proven.

THERE HASN'T BEEN A CORRELATION BETWEEN CO2 AND TEMPERATURE RISE FOR THE LAST 11 YEARS.
Co2 UP, Temperature went DOWN

The cost of postage stamps has more correlation with temperature than CO2 does.
http://joannenova.com.au/2009/05/03/shock-global-temperatures-driven-by-us-postal-charges/

So does the number of pirates show a stronger correlation with temperature than does CO2.

" You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature."
http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/001857.php

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:08 am
Well damn, Judy I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Kit, way to go, remember those cool days in 1980 when we had almost a full; month of 100+ , 113 was the best, I was chilling in Pennsylvania where they had a "severe heat wave" of 85 degrees.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 5:43 am
Kit,

Again I have to thank you for braving the gauntlet of ignorance, stupidity, hate and anger that always follows stories like the one you posted for this thread from the minority!

Factoid: Accurate Temperature Reading's first began in the late 1800's

Question: Is the world cooler now than in the 1890's? NO!
Question: Is the world cooler now than in the 1900's? NO!
Question: Is the world cooler now than in the 1910's? NO!
Question: What about the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's... is the the world cooler now than back then? NO!

It turns out that the ole' graph them silly scientist draw has an upward slope to it!

Wow!

Question: What about the 60's, 70's and 80's is the world cooler now than back then? NO!

By golly that silly graph them thar scientist's been-a-drawing keeps-a-going up... and heck them thar scientist's aren't known for chewin wild weed... so they must know what they are a doing... after all they made it past the fourth grade and didn't marry their cousin's!

Kit... your alright in my book!

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Sunday July 5, 2009, 6:05 am
Dale Husband,

"Saturday July 4, 2009, 9:44 pm
{{{ 1) There is plenty of evidence that global warming has been occurring recently."

Dale, I agree with you and that is a given... but because the evidence is so overwhelming and irrefutable... we should be asking the fringe minority:

Where is your proof that it is not warming?

Where is the peer reviewed proof that it is not warming?

Where is the peer reviewed proof from well known published scientists that it is not warming?

Where is the recent and current peer reviewed proof from well known published scientists that it is not warming?

I don't want to read an article that was published on Dave's Blog!

I don't want to read an article that was published on Wayne's World!

I don't want to read an article from some scientist who claims to be a "Top Rocket Scientist" who has never published a peer reviewed article... that is not proof... it is not respectable proof... and it is an insult to the intelligence of the Care2 community to put that type of junk on this site!

While the fringe minority denialist post there so called proof... let us hold them to there own standards-of-proof!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 7:51 am
Radical plant changes are needed... do we genetically modify? Or do we change our diet radically to fit in with the weather patterns, I guess time will tell, and perhaps we'll be eating things thet we never ever dreamed of...

Sunday July 5, 2009, 9:21 am
The mad mad world of the Warmists pays no attention to reality.

Global temperatures 'have plunged .74°F since Gore released 'An Inconvenient Truth'

The latest global averaged satellite temperature data for June 2009 reveals yet another drop in the Earth's temperature. This latest drop in global temperatures means despite his dire warnings, the Earth has cooled .74°F since former Vice President Al Gore released "An Inconvenient Truth" in 2006.

According to the latest data courtesy of algorelied.com: "For the record, this month's Al Gore / 'An Inconvenient Truth' Index indicates that global temperatures have plunged approximately .74°F (.39°C) since 'An Inconvenient Truth' was released." (see satellite temperature chart here with key dates noted, courtesy of www.Algorelied.com - The global satellite temperature data comes from the University of Alabama in Huntsville.)

Gore has not yet addressed the simple fact that global temperatures have dropped since the release of his global warming film. (Gore has also not addressed this: Another Moonwalker Defies Gore: NASA Astronaut Dr. Buzz Aldrin rejects global warming fears: 'Climate has been changing for billions of years' - Moonwalkers Defy Gore's Claim That Climate Skeptics Are Akin To Those Who Believe Moon Landing was 'Staged')

A record cool summer has descended upon many parts of the U.S. after predictions of the "year without a summer." There has been no significant global warming since 1995, no warming since 1998 and global cooling for the past few years.

In addition, New peer-reviewed scientific studies now predict a continued lack of global warming for up to three decades as natural climate factors dominate. (See: Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades' study finds – Discovery.com – March 2, 2009 )

This means that today's high school kids being forced to watch Al Gore's “An Inconvenient Truth” – some of them 4 times in 4 different classes – will be nearly eligible for AARP (age 50) retirement group membership by the time warming resumes if these new studies turn out to be correct. (Editor's Note: Claims that warming will “resume” due to explosive heat in the "pipeline" have also been thoroughly debunked. See: Climatologist Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. 'There is no warming in the pipeline' )
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1799/Global-temperatures-have-plunged-74degF-since-Gore-released-An-Inconvenient-Truth

Sunday July 5, 2009, 10:25 am
Sunday July 5, 2009, 9:21 am

"The mad mad world of the Warmists pays no attention to reality."

Using your own standard-of-proof... "HA HA HA... you just proved our point and your own words show we are right... thank you for posting the proof that minority denialist are wrong again!"

Folk's... that is their standard of proof!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 11:10 am
Open Comment:

We just had a denialist post a link to: http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1799/Global-temperatures-have-plunged-74degF-since-Gore-released-An-Inconvenient-Truth

It should be noted that the links this person post are never activated and the user is forced to copy and paste the link in order to see what it says... most people won't bother doing that. At the same time this person is quick to jump on others... if a mistake has been made with an active link... even though they never create an active link!

The first thing that I would recommend to the reader is to take everything with a grain-of-salt and pepper it with lots of skepticism. Take your time and start asking question... important questions like just who owns and runs the www.climatedepot.comwebsite?

This is an important question... because the answer will show the reader that the so called "PROOF" that is being offered... has a lot of hate, racism, bias, intolerance and bigotry behind it. It is an important question because the answer will show that there is flat out lies, deception and falsehoods!

The site that the denialist is asking you to visit is owned and run by none other than Mr. Marc Morano!

Marc Morano is and still is being described as 'Rush Limbaugh Man In Washington' and was the reporter and producer for the Rush Limbaugh Show... Yes... the same person that my Niece did an internship for and states that he is a racist and bigot who one the drug addict of the year award for lying... Marc Morano was part of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth campaign and has gone so far as to attack our war veterans who won Purple Hearts!

Marc Morano is the person who wrote 'Kerry Unfit to be Commander In-Chief' and 'More than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims' where he lied about and falsified the names of scientist who he claimed did not believe in Global Warming.

In fact... when scientist demanded that Marc Morano correct his falsehoods by removing their names from his deceptively false and incorrect report... he refused!

Marc Morano... is one of the authors and designers of the anti-global warming campaign that was embraced by the fanatical fringe Republicans groups!

It is my belief and I am of the opinion that, in the future, people will say that the Marc Marano campaign of lies, deception and falsehoods caused more deaths than Hitler, Mao, and Stalin combined!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 11:10 am
What are you talking about?

CO2 is up! There is no warming! ...and .".New peer-reviewed scientific studies now predict a continued lack of global warming for up to three decades as natural climate factors dominate. (See: Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades' study finds – Discovery.com – March 2, 2009 ) "

Sunday July 5, 2009, 11:21 am
Folks... please not that the denialist does not provide links... to those false claims!

Please note that the Denialist quoted an article written by the Producer for Rush Limbaugh!

Please note that the Denialist quoted an author who falsified the names of scientists!

Please note that the Denialist now wants us to visit a TV Show website!

Using the Denialist's own standards-of-proof: "HA HA HA... you just proved to us your wrong!"

Sunday July 5, 2009, 12:41 pm
That is totally off the wall.
The quote was from what I had just posted above your comment.

Try understanding it.
.".New peer-reviewed scientific studies now predict a continued lack of global warming for up to three decades as natural climate factors dominate. (See: Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades' study finds – Discovery.com – March 2, 2009 ) "
From:
Global temperatures 'have plunged .74°F since Gore released 'An Inconvenient Truth'
June 2009 saw another drop in global temps
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1799/Global-temperatures-have-plunged-74degF-since-Gore-released-An-Inconvenient-Truth

Sunday July 5, 2009, 1:24 pm
Once again folks... the Denialist just doesn't get it!

They keep on bringing up the www.climatedepot.com link and if you look at it... you will discover that it is written by Marc Morano!

Who is Marc Morano?

He is the guy who was a producer for Rush Limbaugh!

He is the guy who wrote 'More than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims' ... and in that report he lied about and falsified the names of scientist who he claimed did not believe in Global Warming!

Please note: The Denialist doesn't even check their own sources!

Google the author that the Denialist quotes and find out for yourself... the man is a known liar... he is a fraud!

"Morano is simply not part of the legitimate discussion about climate science and policy. Marc Morano is unquotable and uncitable"

Memo to media, blogosphere: Swift boat smearer Marc Morano has no credibility. He is unquotable and uncitable
April 7th, 2009

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:11 pm
So what!

You haven't refuted what he said...you've just attacked HIM.

That's called an ad hominem and if that's all you've got to say about what he says...YOU LOST THE DEBATE!

That is NOT evidence that the world is warming...that is an attack on a guy because of his last job.

Prove this one!
"He is the guy who wrote 'More than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims' ... and in that report he lied about and falsified the names of scientist who he claimed did not believe in Global Warming! "

PS One does not "believe" in things scientific.....belief is what religion is about!

You betray yourself by your use of words.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:23 pm
That should have read "an attack on a guy because of his job BEFORE last.

Here are the fruits of his last job.Testimony before a legally constituted committee of the US Sennate of over 700 skeptical scientists.

The Updated 2009 Senate Minority Report of 700 plus scientists featuring the 59 additional scientists

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=83947f5d-d84a-4a84-ad5d-6e2d71db52d9:

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:31 pm
Please note that when confronted with the facts about the Denialist source... the response was: "So What!"

The Denialist then demands more proof?

Again... the Denialist does not provide Current Scientific Peer Reviewed Proof... instead the Denialist goes to a blog that is run by a racist and bigot who sold his soul to Rush Limbaugh!

The Denialist betrays themselves with their own words... in this case complete lack of proof that Global Warming is not occuring..

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:36 pm
What another report written by Marc Morano?

The same Marc Morano who lied and falsified the first report?

The same Marc Morano who refused to remove the names of scientist who went on record that they do believe in Global Warming?

Sunday July 5, 2009, 2:58 pm
Give a break.

Warmists still haven't proved that CO2 causes Catastophic Anthropogenic Climate Alteration...or CACA.

Prove that one. The IPCC DIDN'T PROVE IT. They just declared there was a 90% chance of CACA...and they gave no references for that percentage either.

Where's the "peer -reviewed science" that proves 3% of CO2 in the atmosphere produced by humans is responsible for CACA?

All you can do is malign Morano, who is just the messenger....you can't prove the hypothesis because it has been falsified by no warming for the last 11 years.

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CRUMSUCO2June.jpg

Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:08 pm
I have now seen many posts by this Judy person. It appears that this poster chases down any news related to global warming issues - and posts the same 'tired' posts over and over again.

I admire your restraint Kit. And Sentinels Watch - thank you for debunking the myths of Marc Morano and the so-called 'rocket scientist' David Evans.

I am absolutely appalled that despite the scientific peer reviewed data some humans still choose to hide their heads in the sand.

This article clearly says: 'Adapt or die'

Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:13 pm
An open question to our friends in Australia

We have a Denialist who lives up in Canada that claims the world is cooling... I realize that the Seasons are reversed that when it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere... it will be winter in the Southern Hemisphere... My question is... this last summer... was it cooler for you down there? Did the rains come and end the massive "Drought of the Century?" Did the rains come and help out with that huge fire? Are you able to water your lawns, fill your swimming pools and wash your cars anytime anywhere in Australia... or are the restrictions still in place? Australia Drought

How about are good friends in China... how is the current drought going on?China Drought

How about are good friends in Canada... specifically in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba... how is the drought going on there? Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba Drought

Well... since were asking... how about the rest of the world... any droughts going on? Drought around the world

Even though this thread is about the need for new crops to help with the food situation... you folks just hang on... we have a Denialist up in Canada that says you have nothing to worry about... that things are a lot colder now!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:45 pm
Yes, and maybe it might be smart to breed crops for cooler conditions instead.

Of course I am a Denier.....I deny man can control climate.

Humans, specifically the US Military, have been deliberately altering weather though. I see evidence of that all the time. Our skies are as filled with chemtrails as yours.

http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html

Chemtrails are what you should be agitating against....not an iddy-biddy-bit of CO2....or Marc Moreno

Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:52 pm
Eureka,

Thank you for your kind words!

I hope you noticed that I did not make any direct personal attacks on anyone that participated in the lively debate... I pointed out major problems with the so called proof... and lack of proof!

You probably know this but the person who posted this thread, "Kit", is a very good person. She is smart, kind, articulate and educated... and I have never seen her lose her temper on this site... the story that she posted is about a very serious subject because we currently have One-Billion People who are starving now!

In mankind's short history on this planet... we have never had One-Billion people starving at the same time!

It is not due to just one cause, it is due to many that include: dwindling resources, climate change, drought, increasing fuel costs, global recession, commercial fisheries collapse and wars... just to name a few of the causes. It is a very complex and volatile situations that will not be solved. It will only get worse!

The Denialist's of our world refuse to look at the big picture.... CO2 is just one small part of the problem... it is just one piece of the puzzle... but the 'Denialist' only looks at the 'Micro Cause' and focuses on CO2. They ignore the massive amounts of methane that is now being released into our atmosphere... which is far worse than CO2. This is causing an uncontrollable chain reaction. (I am not even going to touch on the fact at how CO2 is damaging the oceans... which happen to be a major source of food for over a billion people!)

They ignore the massive amounts of contrails being produced by Commercial Jets and how it blocks the sunlight to our planet... Global Dimming is so bad that some parts of the world have had a 30% decrease in sunlight reaching the surface of our planet. As the price of Oil Skyrockets... Commercial Airline Traffic will decrease... allowing sunlight to reach the surface and we will see a huge surge in Temperatures!

They (Denialists) ignore the fact that at 6.78 Billion people we do not have the resources to support that many people and our population is out of control... soon we will be at 7 Billion plus and before the end of the next decade we will be passing 8 Billion people!

The Denialists claim that the "Hydorgen Economy" will come and save us... while ignoring the fact that Hydrogen would have a serious affect on our planets atmosphere and our CO2 emissions would increase. They ignore the fact that our world does not have enough of the rare earth metals needed for fuel cells to supply everyone!

The Denialists ignore the fact that even our flat panel TV's and monitors use very rare materials and we can not continue on this current pace!

Denialists don't understand the fact that: "We do not have a plan B!"

I have come to realize that people don't like hearing bad news... they don't want to know... it does not match their perceptions that they wish to believe in. They don't understand that it has nothing to do with God or Armageddon or the 'End-of-the-World' stuff that people have been screaming about for the past 3,000 years.

It has to do with the fact that there are just to many of us and we are blindly rushing towards the critical points!

What is really sad is the fact that the Denialist's love to quote this or that article... they love to quote this or that scientist... but they ignore what the articles say and they ignore what the scientists are saying!

If you want to learn more... check out, "The Sentinel's Watch" and no... you don't have to agree with everything!

Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)

Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:58 pm

Look how you avoid providing proof for the hypothesis. It is yours to prove....and you can't.
You go round and round about unrelated issues even including saying what a nice person Kit is. Duh?

Maybe you should pay more attention to what Obama. is doing and forget about Limbaugh and Moreno.
From Counterpunch....from the Left

Meet the Retreads: Obama's Used Green Team

By JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
Of all of Barack Obama’s airy platitudes about change none were more vaporous than his platitudes about the environment and within that category Obama has had little at all to say about matters concerning public lands and endangered species. He is, it seems, letting his bureaucratic appointments do his talking for him. So now, five months into his administration, Obama’s policy on natural resources is beginning to take shape. It is a disturbingly familiar shape, almost sinister.

It all started with the man in the hat, Ken Salazar, Obama’s odd pick to head the Department of Interior. Odd because Salazar was largely detested in his own state, Colorado, by environmentalists for his repellent coziness with oil barons, the big ranchers and the water hogs. Odd because Salazar was close friends with the disgraced Alberto Gonzalez, the torturer’s consigliere. Odd because Salazar backed many of the Bush administration’s most rapacious assaults on the environment and environmental laws. Odder still because Salazar, in his new position as guardian of endangered species, had as a senator repeatedly advocated the weakening of the Endangered Species Act.

Salazar never hid his noxious positions behind a green mantle. Obama certainly knew what he was buying. And the president could have made a much different and refreshing choice by picking Rep. Raul Grijalva, the Arizona Democrat, a Hispanic, a westerner and a true environmentalist who had helped to expose the cauldron of corruption inside the Bush Interior Department. Yes, Obama could have picked a western environmentalist; instead he tapped a prototypical western politician with deep ties to the water, oil, timber, ranching and mining industries. So the choice was deliberate and it presaged the deflating policies that are now beginning to stream out of his office, from siding with Sarah Palin against the polar bear to greenlighting dozens of Bush-era mountaintop removal mining operations across Appalachia. (As CounterPunch pointed out last fall, Obama and Palin have long since established symbiotic harmony on God’s Pipeline, the proposed $30 billion natural gas pipeline that, if constructed, will slice across the tundra and boreal forests from Prudhoe Bay through Canada to Chicago.)

Salazar wasted no time in turning the Interior Department office into a hive of his homeboys. This group of lawyers and former colleagues have already earned the nickname the Colorado Mafia, Version Three. It’s Version Three because Colorado Mafia Version One belonged to James Watt and his Loot-the-West zealots from the Mountain States Legal Fund. The Version Two update came in the form of Gale Norton and her own band of fanatics, some of whom remain embedded in the Department’s HQ, just down the hall from Salazar’s office.

Beyond a perverse obsession with Stetson hats, Salazar and Watt share some eerie resemblances. For starters, they look alike. There’s a certain fleshy smugness to their facial features. Who knows if Salazar shares Watt’s apocalyptic eschatology (Why save nature, Watt once quipped, when the end of the world is nigh.), but both men are arrogant, my-way-or-the-highway types. Watt’s insolent demeanor put him to the right even of his patron Ronald Reagan and ultimately proved his downfall. Salazar may well meet the same fate—if Obama, knock-on-wood, doesn’t nominate him for the next Supreme Court vacancy first. Most troubling, however, is the fact that both Watt and Salazar hold similar views on the purpose of the public estate, treating the national forests and Bureau of Land Management lands not as ecosystems but as living warehouses for the manufacture of stuff: lumber, paper, wedding rings, meat, energy.

With this stark profile in mind, it probably comes as no big shock that the man Salazar nominated to head the Fish and Wildlife Service, the agency charged with protecting native wildlife and enforcing the Endangered Species Act, has viewed those responsibilities with indifference if not hostility. For the past twelve years, Sam Hamilton, whose nomination to head the agency is now pending before congress, has run the Southeast Region of the Fish and Wildlife Service, a swath of the country that has the dubious distinction of driving more species of wildlife to the brink of extinction than any other.

From Florida to Louisiana, the encroaching threats on native wildlife are manifest and relentless: chemical pollution, oil drilling, coastal development, clearcutting, wetland destruction and a political animus toward environmental laws (and environmentalists). And Sam Hamilton was not one to stand up against this grim state of affairs.

A detailed examination of Hamilton’s tenure by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility reveals his bleak record. During the period from 2004 through 2006, Hamilton’s office performed 5,974 consultations on development projects (clearcuts, oil wells, golf courses, roads, housing developments and the like) in endangered species habitat. But Hamilton gave the green light to all of these projects, except one. By contrast, during the same period the Rocky Mountain Office of the Fish and Wildlife Service officially consulted on 586 planned projects and issued 100 objections or so-called jeopardy opinions. Hamilton has by far the weakest record of any of his colleagues on endangered species protection.

There’s plenty of evidence to show that Hamilton routinely placed political considerations ahead of enforcing the wildlife protection laws. For example, in the agency’s Vero Beach, Florida office Fish and Wildlife Service biologists wrote a joint letter in 2005 complaining that their supervisors had ordered them not to object to any project in endangered species habitat—no matter how ruinous.

Take the case of the highly endangered Florida panther. One of Hamilton’s top lieutenants in Florida has been quoted as telling his subordinates that the big cat was a “zoo species” doomed to extinction and that to halt any developments projects in the panther’s habitat would be a waste of time and political capital.

“Under Sam Hamilton, the Endangered Species Act has become a dead letter,” says PEER’s Executive Director Jeff Ruch, noting that the White House announcement on Hamilton touted his “innovative conservation” work. “Apparently, the word ‘no’ is not part of ‘innovative’ in Mr. Hamilton’s lexicon. To end the cycle of Endangered Species Act lawsuits, the Fish and Wildlife Service needs a director who is willing to follow the law and actually implement the Act. Hamilton’s record suggests that he will extend the policies of Bush era rather than bring needed change.”

Now this man has the fate of the jaguar, grizzly and northern spotted owl in his compromised hands. Feel the chill?

Over at the Agriculture Department Obama made a similarly cynical pick when he chose former Iowa governor Tom Vilsak to head the agency that oversees the national forests. Vilsak resides to the right of Salazar and not just in the sitting arrangement at Cabinet meetings. He is a post-Harken Iowa Democrat, which means he’s essentially a Republican who believes in evolution six days a week. (He leaves such Midwestern heresies at the door on Sundays.) Think Earl Butz—minus the racist sense of humor (as far as we know).

Vilsak is a creature of industrial agriculture, a brusque advocate for the corporate titans that have laid waste the farmbelt: Monsanto, Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill. As administrations come and go, these companies only tighten their stranglehold, poisoning the prairies, spreading their clones and frankencrops, sucking up the Oglalla aquifer, scalping topsoil and driving the small farmers under. It could have been different. Obama might have opted for change by selecting Wes Jackson of the Land Institute, food historian Michael Pollan or Roger Johnson, president of the National Farmers Union. Instead he opted for the old guard, a man with a test tube in one hand and Stihl chainsaw in the other.
read the rest


http://www.care2.com/news/member/911565885/1185589

Sunday July 5, 2009, 4:01 pm
Yip, we are all in it together, but I really don't like living on the same planet as denialists, who would see our planet in ruin before doing something about it, and that includes all the reasons for global warming. This planet is our home, and our food is not going to drop from the skies....

Sunday July 5, 2009, 4:03 pm
I've known Kit ever since I joined Care2. And I have the deepest respect for her. One of the sane and intelligent members of care2. I love reading Kit's posts - I may not agree with some of it, but one thing I can say, Kit is a lady - always. Proud to be Kit's friend. And I'm heading over to your group right now. Thanks.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 4:07 pm
I agree with you,Eureka.I have seen her posts over and over again always.I ignore her.I just figure that at one time people thought the world was flat!Thanks,Kit.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 4:16 pm
I agree with Judy's last post though. The Obama administration is not really doing its bit and many have said that the people now in charge of Environmental departments are still tied at the hip to the big honchos who are not interested in saving our planet.

But this is completely off topic! The topic is that global warming is a reality, and that we must look to our flanks, find new types of crops to grow......

Sunday July 5, 2009, 4:27 pm
Well if you take a real good look at our 'Resident Denialist' you will notice that the last post violates copyright laws... it is illegal to copy and paste entire articles in Canada and the United States... it is disrespectful to the authors and breaking the laws is not the way to convince me of anything!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 5:50 pm
That isn't the whole of the article...read it.

And "fair use" rules.

If the governments of the West are going to try to shut down economies on the unproven basis of CO2 being able to change climate, they are committing fraud.

It's prettyretty simple. I say prove CO2 is capable of changing climate and all you guys can do is make comments about me and other irrelevancies.

Again. WHERE'S THE PROOF?

Sunday July 5, 2009, 6:39 pm
It is one thing to quote an article which is covered by fair use... to copy and paste partial articles and/or entire articles is a clear violation of US and Canadian Laws... It also places Care2 in the bad situation of having to moderate people who consistently violate TOS and laws!

Again, a person who chooses to violate the law; chooses to violate the spirit of the law; chooses to flaunt the law... is never in the right and never will be!

When you decide to post arguments with active links and show respect for copyright... when you take the time to request permission to use articles in whole or in part from the authors... then you will be on the path of gaining peoples respect and admiration!

Folk's... using our own 'Resident Denialists' standards... Our 'Resident Denialist' should prove that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 6:49 pm
FYI:

Fair use is based on the belief that the general public and media are entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials. The fair use extends to commentary on the creative works, criticism of creative works, or even the creation of a parody that relates to the copyrighted material. Understanding the intent of the copyright laws help publishers interpret them.

It should be pointed out that our 'Resident Denialist' does not offer commentary, criticism or parody of the articles she blindly copies and paste!

Sunday July 5, 2009, 9:17 pm
Increasing Temperatures & Greenhouse Gases
Through the study of ancient ice cores from Antarctica it is possible to compare atmospheric concentrations of the dominant greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere with temperature variations over the past 400 thousand years of the earth's history (Fig 1). A visual comparison of the two trends indicates a very tight connection between their performance, with fluctuations in one plot almost exactly mirrored in the other for more than 400 thousand years. But suddenly in the 1800s, as the Industrial Revolution takes off, atmospheric CO2 concentrations begin an unprecedented upward climb, rising rapidly from 280 ppmv (parts per million by volume) in the early 1800s to a current level of 376 ppmv, 77 ppmv above the highest concentrations previously attained in the course of the preceding 400 thousand years.
http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publications/warming_earth/scientific_evidence.htm

In the 19th century, scientists realized that gases in the atmosphere cause a "greenhouse effect" which affects the planet's temperature. These scientists were interested chiefly in the possibility that a lower level of carbon dioxide gas might explain the ice ages of the distant past. At the turn of the century, Svante Arrhenius calculated that emissions from human industry might someday bring a global warming. Other scientists dismissed his idea as faulty. In 1938, G.S. Callendar argued that the level of carbon dioxide was climbing and raising global temperature, but most scientists found his arguments implausible. It was almost by chance that a few researchers in the 1950s discovered that global warming truly was possible. In the early 1960s, C.D. Keeling measured the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere: it was rising fast. Researchers began to take an interest, struggling to understand how the level of carbon dioxide had changed in the past, and how the level was influenced by chemical and biological forces. They found that the gas plays a crucial role in climate change, so that the rising level could gravely affect our future. (This essay covers only developments relating directly to carbon dioxide, with a separate essay for Other Greenhouse Gases. For related theoretical issues, see the essay on Simple Models of Climate.)
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm

These are just 2 of the many articles available on the topic of scientific study of global temperatures, the correlation to CO2 is interconnected to mathematical models of ancient warming events that do present a strong and very direct link to sudden (meaning within geological time) rises in CO2. However we are dealing with a direct link between the beginning of the Industrial Revolution belching millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere and not leakage by volcanoes or rifts. Certainly these do contribute to the CO2, as they have and will continue to do, however one cannot discount the enormous amount of CO2 that man has released via manufacturing and transportation. These additions of CO2 are not slow leaks. they are continuous 24 hours every day. In the 50s and 60s the "alarmist" began to warn people that this continued abuse of our only breathable air source was not only dangerous but within the next 40-50 years would most certainly begin to demonstrate itself through a slow, gradual but unceasing increase in temperatures. Again, when this happens it will not (as we see each day) be the entire globe warming, it is rather like a warp in the jet stream. Some areas will and are affected with continuous warming and drought others with cooler and drier weather, and increased storms in both frequency and power. The wild fires are also interconnected to this ongoing phenomenon. So, yes Judy man can have an effect on climate --- can we make it rain (or stop) when we choose, of course not. But we can pollute and have done so with alacrity in pursuit of the almighty dollar, leaving a great deal of destruction in our wake.

Having a degree in electrical engineering does not make one an expert on climatology. Is he able to feed information into mathical models? I would expect so, but to use that information to draw conclusions in direct opposition to those who are experts in climate and meteorology, sounds a bit like some one who simply wants to make a buck on the exhaustive research of others. Evans does not seem to understand even the most basic concepts of general circulation, much less the fine points of how CO2 works to obstruct the process.

To answer your direct question, Sentinel - yes I was - am still am opposed to use and current abuse of the science of nuclear energy. Whether it is in weapons or as a so called support of commercial and residential energy. Any one that does independent research on this topic can draw their own conclusions, but to rely on statements made by politicians on this or any topic that is directly connected to money and lobbies is in my opinion fool hardy. If you have followed Al Gore's political career then you know that he did not suddenly decide to get on the climate band wagon, but has pursued this as critical point even before he entered into the political arena, making him a rare exception.

Thank you all for the kind words. I do not place these articles for the purpose of alarming any one -- rather for information. I have read much of the opposition to global warming, and though each is entitled to an opinion it is worth noting where the financing comes from for the denial group.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 10:08 pm
{{{COMING FROM YOU, BEING CALLED A "denialist fraud" is a compliment. It means the good doctor has hit the nail on the head.}}}

Non-sequitur. Next...

{{{THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to support the now blasted hypothesis of man-made global warming.}}}

Outright lie. You just ignore the evidence that is there.

{{{YOU HAVE TO PROVE THE HYPOTHESIS. Not only was iT not proven...it can not be proven.}}}

It would be impossible to prove something to YOUR satisfaction. And no one should be expected to.

{{{THERE HASN'T BEEN A CORRELATION BETWEEN CO2 AND TEMPERATURE RISE FOR THE LAST 11 YEARS.}}}

A reference to the "global warming stopped in 1998" fallacy.

{{{Co2 UP, Temperature went DOWN}}}

Note that Judy ignores the fact that solar activity dropped after 2005, resulting in the slightly lower temperatures now. Responsible climatologists take both the solar activity and the greenhouse gases into account when interpreting the data. Judy has asserted in the past that the Sun caused the global warming up until 1998 (falsehood) and then turns around and proclaims the lack of correlation between CO2 levels and temperatures today. She ignores that the temperatures are still higher now than they were in the 1970s, which indicates that the higher CO2 levels are preventing temperatures from dropping further than what one might expect if solar activity alone was the cause of all climate change.

{{{If the governments of the West are going to try to shut down economies on the unproven basis of CO2 being able to change climate, they are committing fraud.}}}

Attempting to change economies is not the same as trying to shut them down. And your claim that CO2's ability to change climate is "unproven" is merely an assertion. Since your premises are false or unfounded, so is your conclusion.

Sunday July 5, 2009, 11:33 pm
Well said Dale, and accurate. You can't have it both ways.

And now for some more information available to those who are interested.


EPA has posted a list of 44 “High Hazard Potential” coal ash waste dumps. They're near 26 communities in 10 different states, and similar to the impoundment that buried over 300 acres in Tennessee in toxic mud late last year. (Associated Press)

New research reconstructing the extent of ice in the sea between Greenland and Svalbard from the 13th century to the present indicates that there has never been so little sea ice as there is now. Even though the 13th century was a notably warm time, there has never been so little sea ice as in the 20th century. (ScienceCentric)

ExxonMobil continues to sink hundreds of thousands of dollars into climate change sceptic groups National Center for Policy Analysis, the Heritage Foundation, and the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. This is despite promising more than once to stop its efforts to cultivate fear, uncertainty and doubt about global warming; Between 1998 to 2005, ExxonMobil gave almost $16 million to 43 lobby groups that worked to confuse Americans about the reality of global warming. (Wonk Room)

Millions of euro worth of damage was caused yesterday after Dublin was swamped by a record two weeks' worth of rain in one hour. "This is the second time within the space of 12 months that Dublin experienced this type of flooding and it is clear that this is as a direct consequence of climate change," Lord Mayor Councillor Emer Costello said. (The Irish Independent)

Scientists solve mystery of Scotland's shrinking sheep: Shorter, milder winters caused by global warming to blame for steady decrease in size of St Kilda sheep. (The Guardian)

Monday July 6, 2009, 1:09 pm

Current CO2 levels for 2009 are 390.18 ppm!

CO2 levels for 2008 were at 387 ppm... and I am seeing reports that is was at 388.5 ppm in 2008!

CO2 Levels

It should be noted that there are several sources that I can quote from... not just the one that I have posted!

It should also be mentioned that in less than 91 years... CO2 Levels will be at 1000 ppm... It is a very easy calculation for scientists to do and this 1000 ppm can not be disputed... they get this number based on current trends and it is also based on well known and understood facts... they know how much CO2 a ton of coal or a barrel of oil produces... They know how much CO2 is produced by a cord of wood... again it can not be disputed... (It is not Rocket Science!)

Another source: NOAA.Gov CO2 Levels

Monday July 6, 2009, 4:59 pm

You left out the biggest and most important reason.

The population of humans has never been so high!

In mankind's short history on this planet... we have never had One-Billion people starving at the same time!

It is not due to just one cause, it is due to many that include: dwindling resources, climate change, drought, increasing fuel costs, global recession, commercial fisheries collapse and wars... just to name a few of the causes. It is a very complex and volatile situations that will not be solved. It will only get worse!

Monday July 6, 2009, 5:02 pm
it can be disputed
and once again you leave out the most important point!

They don't know how much will be used.

It should also be mentioned that in less than 91 years... CO2 Levels will be at 1000 ppm... It is a very easy calculation for scientists to do and this 1000 ppm can not be disputed... they get this number based on current trends and it is also based on well known and understood facts... they know how much CO2 a ton of coal or a barrel of oil produces... They know how much CO2 is produced by a cord of wood... again it can not be disputed... (It is not Rocket Science!)

Monday July 6, 2009, 8:03 pm
CO2 was at 275ppm for 10,000 years of climatic stability, the period during which human civilisation and agriculture has developed. CO2 has risen since the Industrial Revolution.

The crops we have now have evolved with us for thousands of years in these stable conditions. I'm not sure how crops are supposed to evolve in a short period of time to changed conditions, climate and temperatures.

Tuesday July 7, 2009, 1:37 am
BB KK

"it can be disputed and once again you leave out the most important point! They don't know how much will be used."

I suppose this is why you don't understand daily, monthly or yearly production numbers for coal and oil... which are published all of the time for the stock holders!

Perhaps this is why, when a new coal fired or natural gas fired electrical plant goes on line... they already know how much coal or natural gas it will use every year... and with a new coal fired electrical plant being opened each week in China, they already know how much CO2 will be put into the atmosphere each day, week, month and year over its lifetime!

(They even know how many cars are being sold every month... which is a major source of CO2 pollution!)

It should be mentioned that coal emissions also include mercury... which comes over to the lakes and rivers in the United States and Canada.

It should also be mentioned that the CO2 emissions are now being tracked by satellite.... so YES we do know how much is being used!

Tuesday July 7, 2009, 1:40 am
BB KK,

"Monday July 6, 2009, 4:59 pm... You left out the biggest and most important reason. The population of humans has never been so high!"

No I did not leave out the biggest and most important reason!

What part of... They (Denialists) ignore the fact that at 6.78 Billion people we do not have the resources to support that many people and our population is out of control... soon we will be at 7 Billion plus and before the end of the next decade we will be passing 8 Billion people... did you not understand?

Tuesday July 7, 2009, 1:43 pm
Very true, Sentinel to not include the growing population burden is to leave out a huge part of the discussion. Currently the US is down (by only 1.2%) the exhaust of CO2 into the atmosphere but that is meaningless when one considers that China has added nearly 10% - as of 2008 alone. The bill Obama sent to Congress asks for a 4% reduction in 10 years, hardly a meaningful or useful reduction.

I can't see any comments of a negative nature directed at Judy, other then to say her comments are a part of the denialists camp and that she uses poor science to back up what she chooses to believe. As for proof...it's available in the data I posted above. Far too many actual scientific studies have been done to continue to deny what is happening. How or what we do with that information may be open to debate, the facts are legitimate. The price tag of 50 billion seems a small price to pay to for the survival of planet earth as our home. Some industries have already out lived their usefulness, others simply need to clean up their act. Spain for instance has reduced CO2 output by 24% in just 2008, and are not suffering because of that, in fact people have so reduced their personal use of energy that some of the alternative energy sources are being shut down in part.

So, again I ask - where is the harm in cleaning up this mess?

Tuesday July 7, 2009, 2:59 pm
Kit,

It is an important issue that I brought up on this thread on Sunday July 5, 2009 at 3:52 pm with my reply to
Eureka and I quote:

"They (Denialists) ignore the fact that at 6.78 Billion people we do not have the resources to support that many people and our population is out of control... soon we will be at 7 Billion plus and before the end of the next decade we will be passing 8 Billion people"

It should be noted that our Care2 Resident Denialist has stated on numerous occasions, including on this thread that the growing population is of no concern and is not an issue!

BB KK's response: Monday July 6, 2009, 4:59 pm "You left out the biggest and most important reason. The population of humans has never been so high!" ... shows that they did not take the time to read any posts... if they had taken the time, they would have noticed that this important issue was in fact brought up!

In fact... if you read BB KK's post... they are quoting my words exactly:

"In mankind's short history on this planet... we have never had One-Billion people starving at the same time!

It is not due to just one cause, it is due to many that include: dwindling resources, climate change, drought, increasing fuel costs, global recession, commercial fisheries collapse and wars... just to name a few of the causes. It is a very complex and volatile situations that will not be solved. It will only get worse!" Which I wrote on Sunday July 5, 2009, 3:52 pm!

If you go back further on this thread you will see that I also wrote: "It should be noted that you do not blindly copy and paste entire articles. You do not quote the same articles over and over. You do not chase scientists around on Care2 arguing with them. You do not quote old pseudo articles and you do not create multiple Care2 accounts in order to maliciously attack other people!"

I find it odd that on too many occasions... when our Resident Care2 Denialist starts posting... that suddenly a brand new account emerges... with words of praise... and a lot of copying and pasting going on!

Perhaps the Moderators should start monitoring IP Addresses on this thread and take appropriate action on the multiple account holder!

Changing the subject... do you remember the movie, "2001 A Space Odyssey" with the paranoid HAL 9000 Computer villain?

Paranoid HAL 9000

Kit... You have a degree or two in the Psychology/Psychiatry field... what would Freud say about a person who chooses an image of a paranoid malfunctioning computer to represent themselves while stealing the words written by others?

Now please not that I am not putting anyone down or offering an insult to anyone in particular... I am just curious as to what would motivate a person to act in such an inappropriate manner?

Wednesday July 8, 2009, 9:07 am
Sentinel:

Rather then attempt to use psychological analysis, lets make it all a little more simple.

"Imitation is the finest form of flattery"

If others read what you have stated and then take that on as their own argument then consider that you have presented your case well, and others to now use it as their own. Consider it a form of praise.

Wednesday July 8, 2009, 4:28 pm
Kit,

As always, you are correct!

I am not complaining, every time they pull that stunt... I end up with a bunch of new friends, more green stars and 'The Sentinels Watch' membership grows!


Take care,

The Sentinel’s Watch
(Were all in it together!)