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The Wrath of Fools: An Open Letter to the Far Right

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: abuse, americans, congress, constitution, corruption, dishonesty, Govtfearmongering, healthcare, housing, iraq, lies, mccain, media, military, news, politics, propaganda, republicans, SupremeCourt, troops, terrorism, war )

- 2720 days ago -
I'm talking to you, Sharron Angle, you walking punch-line, who talked about "Second Amendment remedies" being necessary if you didn't get your way on health care reform during your failed Senate campaign.

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Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 2:27 pm
The Wrath of Fools: An Open Letter to the Far Right
Monday 10 January 2011

by: William Rivers Pitt, t r u t h o u t | Op-Ed

The Wrath of Fools: An Open Letter to the Far Right

Monday 10 January 2011

by: William Rivers Pitt, t r u t h o u t | Op-Ed

To: Palin-lovers, Fox "News," the "mainstream" media, and the Far Right, et al.

From: William Rivers Pitt

Date: Monday 10 January 2011

Re: The blood on your hands

Dear “Patriots,”

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords isn't much older than me. She served in the Arizona State House of Representatives, and the Arizona State Senate, before being elected to three successive terms in the U.S. House of Representatives. She once described herself as a "former Republican," and is today considered a "Blue Dog" Democrat, meaning she holds a number of conservative political positions. This is not terribly surprising, given the generally conservative political bent of the state she has served for the last ten years. She was married four years ago to a space shuttle commander who had served as a Naval aviator, and who flew 39 combat missions in Desert Storm, before volunteering for astronaut training.

Last Wednesday, she was sworn in to her third term as the Representative for Arizona's 8th congressional district. One of her first acts in the newly-minted 112th Congress was to read aloud from the House floor, in response to the Republican Party's recitation of the Constitution, the following lines: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

She returned to Arizona not long after to assist in the implementation of that most vital of Constitutional principles, calling together a meeting of her constituents in a peaceable assembly so the citizens she represents could petition the government for a redress of grievances. Among the gathered crowd were a number of her staffers, a judge, and a nine-year-old girl named Christina-Taylor Green who was born on September 11, 2001.
And then all Hell broke loose.

A man named Jared Lee Loughner waded into the group and fired a bullet into Rep. Giffords' skull at point-blank range, before turning his weapon on others in the crowd. Christina-Taylor Greene, who would have celebrated her tenth birthday on the tenth anniversary of 9/11, was shot in the chest and killed. The woman who brought her to the event was also shot. Gabriel Zimmerman, who served as Rep. Giffords' director of community outreach, was also killed. He was 30 years old, and was recently engaged to be married. U.S. District Judge John Roll, who had served on the bench for twenty years, was also killed. Dorwin Stoddard, a church volunteer, died after putting his body between his wife and the hail of bullets. His wife was also shot. Two of Rep. Giffords' constituents, Dorothy Morris and Phyllis Scheck, were also killed. All in all, 31 shots were fired before several brave souls tackled Loughner, disarmed him, and wrestled him to the ground.

At the time of this writing, Rep. Giffords is lying in a hospital bed in critical condition. The God you Bible-spewing frauds love to flog the rest of us with must have been in that supermarket crowd with her on Saturday, with His hand on her shoulder, because it is nothing short of a full-fledged miracle she survived at all. Doctors are actually cautiously optimistic that she will survive, though the degree to which she will ultimately recover is still sorely in doubt. She can respond to simple commands, according to her doctors, and is marginally able to communicate. If she survives her wound, it is wretchedly certain her life will never, ever be the same.
I just thought you should know a few things about the people you helped into their graves and hospital beds this weekend.

Yes, you.

You false patriots who bring assault rifles to political rallies, you hack politicians and media personalities who lied through your stinking teeth about "death panels" and "Obama is coming for your guns" and "He isn't a citizen" and "He's a secret Muslim" and "Sharia Law is coming to America," you who spread this bastard gospel and you who swallowed it whole, I am talking to you, because this was your doing just as surely as it was the doing of the deranged damned soul who pulled the trigger. The poison you injected into our culture is deeply culpable for this carnage.

You who worship Jesus at the top of your lungs (in defiance of Christ's own teachings on the matter of worship, by the way) helped put several churchgoers into their graves and into the hospital. You who shriek about the sanctity of marriage helped cut down a man who was about to be married. You who crow with ceaseless abandon about military service and the nobility of our fighting forces helped to critically wound the wife of a Naval aviator who fought for you in a war. You who hold September 11 as your sword and shield helped put a little girl born on that day into the ground.

You helped. Yes, damn you, you helped.

The "mainstream" media is already working overtime playing up the "Disturbed loner" angle with all their might. There is no doubt, from the available evidence, of Mr. Loughner's transformation into a disturbed individual. But here's the funny part: all the crazy crap he spewed, about the gold standard (a favorite of Glenn Beck, the master of Fox "News" he can sell his gold scam to suckers) and government mind control and everything else before going on his rampage, is straight out of the Right-Wing Insanity Handbook. His personal YouTube ramblings were a mishmash of right-wing anti-government nonsense...the kind that attracts sick minds like Loughner, the kind that only reinforces their paranoia, the kind that finally pushes them over the brink and into the frenzy of violence that took place on Saturday. The kind that the likes of you have been happily spreading by the day.

He did not act alone. You were right there with him. You helped.

I'm talking to you, "mainstream" media people, who created this atmosphere of desperate rage and total paranoia out of whole cloth because of your unstoppable adoration for spectacle, and ratings, and because the companies that own your sorry asses agree with the deranged cretins you helped make so famous and powerful. It was sickeningly amusing on Sunday to watch Wolf Blitzer bluster and bluff on CNN about how the media owns no responsibility for this disaster. It was like watching a ten-year-old try to explain how a lamp got broken while he was running through the living room, but no, it wasn't him. It was, in reality, a pathetic display...but that is what you generally get whenever Wolf is on your screen.

"Mainstream" news personalities like David Gergen and John King bent over backwards warning people not to blame Sarah Palin and her ilk for this calamity. It was a sick man who did this, they said. Bollocks to that. I hate to break this to the "mainstream" media know-betters, but words matter. When people like Palin spray the airwaves with calls to violence and incantations of imminent doom, people like Loughner are listening, and prepared to act. The "mainstream" media lets it fly without any questions or rebuttal, because it's good for ratings, and here we are. Words matter. Play Russian Roulette long enough, and someone inevitably winds up dead.

Remember the run-up to the Iraq invasion, and the subsequent occupation? "WMD everywhere, al Qaeda connections to 9/11, plastic sheeting and duct tape because we're all gonna die!" was the central theme of the majority of your broadcast schedule for years...until it was all proven to be a lie. You helped the liars, you were the liars, but you knew that. You also got your spectacle, and the corporations that own you got paid a king's ransom, so everyone was happy, except the dead.

Tell me this is any different, I dare you. For the spectacle, the ratings and the pleasure of your owners, you ran names like "Sarah Palin" across the sky in lights, even after she should have faded into well-deserved obscurity, and helped this blister of right-wing rage fester until it finally burst. This was your show, and in perhaps the most wretched irony of all, I would bet all my worldly possessions that your ratings are through the roof right now. You got what you wanted. I hope you are pleased.

And yes, I'm talking to you, Sarah Palin, you unutterably disgusting fraud. You pulled it off your ridiculous website, but it's out there: you put cross-hairs - literally, cross-hairs - on Rep. Giffords, you blithered about "reloading" instead of "retreating," and you made this country more stupid and violent with every breath you took. Well, congratulations, you failure, you quitter, you inciter of mobs. You put the cross-hairs on her, and someone finally pulled the trigger. Run from it all you like, Lady MacBeth, but this blood will never be washed from your hands.

I'm talking to you, Sharron Angle, you walking punch-line, who talked about "Second Amendment remedies" being necessary if you didn't get your way on health care reform during your failed Senate campaign.

I'm talking to you, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly, and Michael Savage, and Ann Coulter, and Laura Ingraham, and to every other right-wing tripe-spewing blowhard blogger and Fox News broadcaster. I hope you are proud of yourselves, because this is the day you get to reap what you have been relentlessly sowing since you were forced to encompass the unmitigated outrage of a Black man winning the office of President of the United States.

That's right, I said it. Anyone who thinks good old-fashioned American bigotry and racism are not the core motivation for a vast majority of these so-called "revolutionaries" should get their heads examined. You've heard of the "elephant in the middle of the room?" Well, this is the burning cross in the middle of the room, and no amount of spin will douse those flames.

I'm talking to you, Koch Brothers. Your money to create and spread this disease was well-spent; you now have one less Democrat in the House to worry about, at least for the foreseeable future. Congratulations, you un-American sacks of filth.

And I'm talking to each and every one of you who listened to these traitors and believed the nonsense they spewed at you for no other reason than to pick your pockets for campaign/organization contributions. I'm talking to you who wore your silly fatigues and carried your badly-spelled fact-deprived signs to protests with pistols on your hips and rifles on your shoulders. You who threw bricks through the windows of politicians you disagreed with. You who shot out the windows of Rep. Giffords' office not even a year ago.

You worked very hard to create exactly this atmosphere in America, and now it has come to be. We have entered the age of the Wrath of Fools, and we now must again exist in an America where the word "assassination" has become all too relevant.

You helped this happen. You.

You know it. I know it. Have the guts to admit it, even if only to yourselves.

I know many Republicans and conservatives, and consider them to be dear friends. The single most influential person in my life (aside from my mother) was a rock-ribbed conservative Republican, and there is no person I respected more than him. I do not count these people, and those like them, among those whom I address here.

They are as sickened and repulsed by you as I am.

This is not the end of the story, but is just the beginning. The good people of the United States of America, the true patriots, have finally seen you with your media-painted masks ripped off. They have seen what comes to pass when hate, venom, ignorance and violence goes unchecked and unanswered. You have been exposed, and the fact that it took such an unimaginably horrific act for that exposure to take place only increases the fierceness with which you will be answered. You will be repudiated, not with violence, but with the scorn and rejection you so richly deserve. Spin it as you will, scramble all you like. You are found out, and you have nowhere to hide.

Oh, P.S., if anyone reading this is operating under the delusion that the overheated right-wing rhetoric that went a long way towards almost getting Rep. Giffords killed, and had a strong hand in putting six people in the ground, is some sort of new Obama-era phenomenon, well...

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for."
- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."
- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT), talking about President Clinton

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."
- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones, 08-95

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."
- Ann Coulter, New York Observer, 08-26-02

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."
- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past - I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble - recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."
- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."
- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), emailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by the Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01

I could go on, and on, and on, and on, but you get the gist.

Most Disrespectfully Yours,

William Rivers Pitt

Toni C (508)
Monday January 10, 2011, 2:50 pm
Thanks for the post.

Barbara Erdman (63)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:08 pm
Noted, thanx :-0

Marti Williams (170)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:14 pm
Thanks Kit...It is to hope that the ones who are guilty will listen..I'm sure there is the 'What...Who Me mentality...

. (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:24 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Kit because you have done so within the last week.
Noted & shared!

. (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:32 pm
Noted/thanks KIt/true article/the people who say or even hint such things should be classified as terrorists and treated as such.

Roseann d (178)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:35 pm
The problem is, their attention span is not long enough to read it. And their comprehension skills are lacking since they have to be told what to think by Faux News.

Monday January 10, 2011, 3:54 pm

How is William Rivers Pitt letter any different from other anger filled messages?

After reading Mr. Pitt's "The Wrath of Fools: An Open Letter to the Far Right" I came to the conclusion that he is guilty of the very thing he is complaining about.

The problem is that 'We Americans' can't seem to think for ourselves. We let others like Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and William Rivers Pitt do the thinking for us... we give them the power and they will abuse it.

We do this out of ignorance and stupidity!

How is this any different from the messages of Bennie Hinn or Jerry Falwell... Now-a-days all one has to do is mention God or Jesus for the Masses to listen!

What makes this situation so sad and pathetic is the fact that we will always have scaremongers from both sides who have there legions of followers... that in times of tragedy... we act like a lynch mob desperately looking for somebody to point our fingers at and blame... while ignoring the fact that 'We the People' gave them the power to begin with!


Carrie B (306)
Monday January 10, 2011, 3:58 pm
Thanks for posting Kit. I had read it too!

Terry King (113)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:07 pm
Well written!

Yvonne White (229)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:09 pm
Amen! ""Mainstream" news personalities like David Gergen and John King bent over backwards warning people not to blame Sarah Palin and her ilk for this calamity. It was a sick man who did this, they said. Bollocks to that. I hate to break this to the "mainstream" media know-betters, but words matter. When people like Palin spray the airwaves with calls to violence and incantations of imminent doom, people like Loughner are listening, and prepared to act. The "mainstream" media lets it fly without any questions or rebuttal, because it's good for ratings, and here we are. Words matter. Play Russian Roulette long enough, and someone inevitably winds up dead.

Remember the run-up to the Iraq invasion, and the subsequent occupation? "WMD everywhere, al Qaeda connections to 9/11, plastic sheeting and duct tape because we're all gonna die!" was the central theme of the majority of your broadcast schedule for years...until it was all proven to be a lie. You helped the liars, you were the liars, but you knew that. You also got your spectacle, and the corporations that own you got paid a king's ransom, so everyone was happy, except the dead."

There's a HUGE difference between Freedom of Speech and Freedom to LIE, Incite, & Terrorize!


Sir Walk F (124)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:12 pm
While I understand and agree with many of her points, I think it's too soon for this.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Sir Walk F (124)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:13 pm
My apologies. Not her, but him.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:15 pm
Is there any thing except secession?

Seriously! Does the predictable posturing the right is taking leave any other solution. We lost representation to the filibuster. Democracy itself. Should we really keep on living together with their borgs? Face it. They own the media. They own a lot of really bad people. Lets draw the line and give every one 3 years to choose a country and be done with it.

I see no hope for change from the hate. It just ran out.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:20 pm
Sentinels watch,
He is reacting to a festering sore that has been growing for decades. It is absolutely NOT the same to be the abuser and the abused. That reasoning should come to every human, easily.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:21 pm
Noted, thanks. Yes, Yvonne..."amen".

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:22 pm
I don't know if this is it's too soon for this, in a few days or a week the anger subsides, and being good liberal democrats, we will all calm down and some will begin to apologize for even being angry. No, I think it's good to take the time right after a traumatizing event to express the grief, horror, fear and anger. The right has had a long run at monopolizing the dialogue, and by using far too much nasty and violent language. It must stop, they must monitor their own. There is no way any one can know who in the audience will misunderstand or take what is said as "private" communication. This man may well be mentally disturbed, that does not change the dynamic of the words in play. If you advocate violence - then you must take responsibility when it happens.

John C (75)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:27 pm
Sentinels Watch.
Maybe when six people are killed in your community while talking to their Rep you will see the difference a little better. One of them was a staunch republican as so many others are here. Giffords was still their rep.

While the boy acted alone he was dancing to someone else's music.
Tucson will commemorate the one week anniversary with a gun show this coming weekend.

pam w (139)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:32 pm
Sentinels....the difference is....many of us have gritted our teeth and kept quiet in response to the vitriol and lying verbosity of the "right" media. NO MORE!

Sharon Karson (82)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:43 pm
Thank You Kit. This is bitter truth, but not all the truth. I refuse to listen to "hate-speak," so I can't name names but I think that it is important that this rage not be directed solely at the reactionist righ. Every person regardless of race, religion, or politics that espouse this kind of violent rhetoric needs to be held criminally accountable. We need to shut dow all forms of violent rhetoric no matter who spews it. We need to boycott any business that sponsors it. We need to strip of all power and authority those who seek to benefit from it(meaning viiolent rhetoric).

We all need to step back and take a real look at what we personally can do to make this a better country for every living soul in it. Then stop yelling at each other an do it.

Monday January 10, 2011, 4:47 pm
"After reading Mr. Pitt's "The Wrath of Fools: An Open Letter to the Far Right" I came to the conclusion that he is guilty of the very thing he is complaining about. "

I don't see any Democrats put maps on their websites with crosshairs on the Republican seats. I don't see Democrats spewing this crazy, paranoid, faux Christian message of Us v. Them. All I see is more and more tea party, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter brand of craziness where superiority, hatred and racism rule over peace and harmony.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:51 pm
Some things in life let us know, profoundly, what we are NOT.....and for this we must have GRATITUDE.

Monday January 10, 2011, 4:52 pm
You missed the point!

There is not much difference between angry words or crosshairs!

There is very little difference between the groups when you keep in mind the "We are so much better than them" attitude that both sides are guilty of...

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:54 pm
Thank you Kit and noted.
Truer words have never been spoken Mr. Pit hit the nail on the head with this article.

Monday January 10, 2011, 4:55 pm

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)


Susan L (150)
Monday January 10, 2011, 4:55 pm
Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with this article. It does not promote hate or violence, nor does it lie.

Marti Williams - The ones who are guilty will most likely Not read it and if they do, will simply point the finger back and say "You too!" without providing provable quotes of similarly influential people.

Sentinels Watch - The reason this is not AT ALL like the hateful & violence instigating rants we have heard non-stop from the talking-heads that call themselves "news reporters"- "entertainers"- "Politicians"- or "Representatives of the People," is because the Opinion writer is not encouraging violence, he is condemning it. BIG difference. The ONLY way this kind of provocation can be stopped is if everyone demands it and we say "We will not tolerate hate-speech and we expect the TRUTH from our government, Politicians, and News." Though the purveyors of this crap will not hear, just maybe, those who have been blindly following and accepting will finally stop and THINK.

Linda G (187)
Monday January 10, 2011, 5:02 pm
Well, I wish Mr. Pitt would let us know how he really feels. I must say that while the far right has no monopoly on hate, they do have a number of very vocal representatives. I wouldn't mind the venom so much if it wasn't based on lies. But the fear mongering for ratings is very disturbing. I used to hold CNN in much respect, back during the first Gulf war when my son was serving. There has been a huge turnover there and I have seen a big change in what they cover and what they give attention to. I want Walter Cronkite back!

Monday January 10, 2011, 5:16 pm

How many people on Care2... How many people on this particular thread... took the time to write a protest letter to the sponsors and advertisers who supported the hate that Rush and others spouted?

How many people on Care2... have been warning about the coming violence?

I point out that I see very little difference from either side and you... for some reason... think that I don't understand the situation. Go figure.

The sad fact is the we Americans, are not happy unless we are fighting and arguing with each other!

Our Nation loves violence!

We the people... love to hate!

We love to put each other down!

We love to belittle strangers!

We love to complain!

... and we do this with out any pretense or facade of civility!


Monday January 10, 2011, 5:24 pm

Hate, anger, frustration, fear-mongering take many different forms and levels. Mr. Pitt is just being more subtle about it!


Monday January 10, 2011, 5:36 pm

I started a thread on Care2 titled "The Coming Violence" six months ago!

At the beginning of the thread I wrote:

"I believe that there will be many contributing factors which foretell the coming violence. I will post links to those hints. It is hoped that, after reading them, the reader will draw their own conclusions!"

The Coming Violence

The bad thing is that I just don't see things getting better in the next few years. I see things getting worse!

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 5:39 pm
This rant of a letter blames everyone... .Except the guy who actually pulled the trigger.... Something is wrong with that.

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 5:39 pm
Here's a difference, the letter above is written by an unapologetic liberal democrat. He is angry, as I am, about the relentless barrage of violent rhetoric, does he at any time openly call for any ones death?

To contrast this is from Bill O'Reilly:

Bill O'Reilly's recent "joke" about decapitating Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank was only the latest example of a demented Fox News culture that permits on-air personalities to fantasize about assassination and other forms of violence against those deemed enemies of the station, its personalities or their worldview.

We may well be just puppets on the stage of the play but we can think and delineate right from wrong.

John C (75)
Monday January 10, 2011, 5:42 pm
It seems unrealistic to me that if we could not achieve a state of rational discourse within the last ten years that we will now after the shooting gets going. Some people take that very personally. At least those who have experience with it.

Susan L (150)
Monday January 10, 2011, 5:43 pm
Sentinels - You are correct, HOWEVER, for lack of a better way to oppose hate, what is there other than 'hate the hate?' I am a complete supporter of hate the hate - in fact, while my children were growing up, I would reprimand them for saying they 'hate' anything....

Monday January 10, 2011, 5:57 pm
A number of years ago, my Uncle was fired by Jerry Brown and replaced with Governor Browns girlfriend. It caused a huge stink in the political world and was major news at the time.

It should be mentioned that my Uncle is a raving fanatical Democrat... Not much different from the bible-banging fanatical Republicans if you get down to it. He has ran for and been elected to office!

I have met my fair share of Senators and Congresspersons!

My niece... my Uncle's Daughter actually worked an internship with Rush Limbaugh and hated the man. He is a real nut case. Rush's mom would call up the Radio Station to tell her son to settle down. She didn't like the stuff he spouted either!


Monday January 10, 2011, 6:00 pm

There is no doubt that you are a good person with a big heart. The same goes for you Sue.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:00 pm
Everyone hurts when innocence is savaged..all Americans need to find a new recipe for governance.. like self governance..become a moral people and have no need of politicians milking you..or living knowing the world hates you for being you..via your projected face..death...pillaging..marauding globally for resources and body counts meaningless.
You have degenerated into beasts via your elected officials. and foreign policies..been blinded by the American delusion..time to wake up and step up..globalists have stolen your country and rights and freedom and happiness..little Hitlers in Texas need killing again..home grown Nazis..entire system corrupted..people duped..lied to..suckered..used abused and fed bullshit and kept ignorant.
Be very afraid.

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:02 pm
And to make it all just a little worse, to add just that extra touch of strange, unreal twists, the miscreants from the crazy church are going to protest the funerals of the six killed in Arizona. I hope a large crowd will block them from getting near the funerals.

Posted on Care2:

Monday January 10, 2011, 6:07 pm

If you knew a bit about my history, then you would know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have dealt with unimaginable pain, suffering with a bit of violence thrown in for measure! (If memory serves, Kit has seen a photo of me (Several Years Ago) and might even throw in a good word or two attesting to that fact!))


Mary L (132)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:09 pm
Now if the radical right actually stops pointing their fingers, did you know it's liberal lefties that caused this? If putting targets on people's faces and suggesting second amendment solutions is from the radical left they need to be sued to pay for the medical bills of the people who were injured and survivor benefits for those who didn't. Oh - wait, that wasn't the radical left, I'd have gotten a memo. And Sentinel, THAT is the difference.

Monday January 10, 2011, 6:12 pm

Targets come in many shapes, styles and forms that the left and right both use!

Folk's... are you forgetting about the attack adds that Democrats and Republicans use against each other during election years?

Talk about hate speech!

Morris G. (18)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:16 pm
An open letter to the Far Left:
Do some actual research. Don't be led around by your nose by sources and people you assume to be telling you the truth just because you are being told what you EXPECT to hear. While I realize most extremists, whether on the right or the left, need someone else to do their thinking for them, you really would be better served by doing some thinking of your own.
Giffords shooter, Loughner, was not a Palin, Beck, or Limbaugh follower. According to the Washington Post, he was a registered Independent who did not even vote in November. His emails contained no references to the above conservatives. His attack on Gifford acoording to WP, "was not a decision born of a set of deeply held political beliefs that fit neatly into either party." It seems likely now that he considered himself a liberal, but what the heck does it matter?
This is a tragic event full of anguish for many innocent people who have lost their lives, their health, their children, spouses, friends, and other loved ones. It appears it was committed by a deranged, disturbed, and very sick madman. Don't diminish the losses these people have suffered by trying to somehow make a political advantage out of it. It doesn't matter what your politics are. This kind of atrocity transcends politics. It is an attack on ALL of us just like OK City and 9-11 were. Treat it as such.


Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:17 pm
In England if the same kind of gut-ripping campaign ads were to be used the individual would lose his/her seat. They don't tolerate that crap why should we? We can demand all of this end. We are the numbers, we have the power - if we use it.

I've known Sentinel a long time and yes, he's been through hell and he also speaks his mind. We may not always agree but we so respect one another. That's not easy to find.

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:24 pm
As usual Morris - you missed the point of the article or did you even read the full article? No one said, not in one article that I read to date, that this guy was a follower of any one. Only that violent rhetoric leads to violence. No one said that the Palin, or the rest put the gun in his hand, but they did seed the climate of intolerance. They have kicked open the doors of hate, and treated as some sort of right.

Stop trying to justify this, it is not to be justified or accepted.

Monday January 10, 2011, 6:25 pm
Panthera Leo,

Good observation!

The letter attacks everyone except the guy who pulled the trigger!

This was why I pointed out that I didn't see any difference between the sides!

Now here is another thought/observation for people to consider... by blaming the other side are they not excusing the shooter for his actions?

Is this not a way of saying that it wasn't his fault because nut case Rush said bad things?

Is this a way of saying that we need to forgive the shooter because Ann Coulter was talking so bad and mean?

Rather than excusing his horrible actions by blaming others... lets do something radical. Let's see what a full investigation discovers. Let us have an impartial jury hear the case and render a fair verdict. Let us have a Judge render a decision based on the juries verdict!

Let us do this instead of having political personalities like William Rivers Pitt work us up into a rage!

Let us think for ourselves for change!

Yes... I know that is a wild thought, but I am confident that some of the people on this thread can actually do it if they would just turn off the Television!

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:36 pm
The point is not the shooter but the political climate that has been created in this country. The shooter will be dealt with by the law. Who will deal the savage abuse of freedom of speech?

If I shout "FIRE" in a crowded theater, I am wrong, in fact I have broken the law. I have caused others to be in harm's way. I see no difference. I have spoken to this many times here on Care2 and in many different threads. These people abuse the right of speech and in their zeal to prove their strident righteousness, they ignore the most crucial element of speech - responsibility. Is it not possible for Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, and all of them to just state their dislike and not charge the audience with calls for death and destruction?

Monday January 10, 2011, 6:37 pm
Morris G.,

Thanks for pointing that out. I was wondering if anybody would!

Melissa O (43)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:39 pm
every element and aspect of all of this -- and all the rest of the chaos and anarchy that is occurring around the globe -- is too terrible for words, too vast and horrible for comprehension. there is so much hate, fear, anger, blame -- it is in every direction. no wonder the people cannot come together enough to put things right.

i look around and see very little hope for a healthy and functional future for this world and its inhabitants. too much reaction, too little unification. too much self-righteousness, too little humility. too much fear, too little courage. the chains are bound tight, linking each of us to another, but keeping us separated by the distances in our minds and the perceptions of our programmed responses. we reject the nobility of our spirit in favour of stasis in the comfort-zones of our own little link. meanwhile, an uninhabitable hell is being created all around us at an alarming rate. profoundly saddened....

Monday January 10, 2011, 6:43 pm

So well put. Very well written!

I would love to have you as a friend!

Susan S (187)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:44 pm
I am praying for peace and that this rampant reactionary politics will calm down. Accusations and pointing fingers from any political framework will not ease the sorrow or undo what is done.

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:48 pm
Things will calm down, but the immediate aftermath of something like this is pain and anger. It's healthy to let that anger out and vent. This is a safe place for that. No one here means harm to others, just some venting and release.

pam w (139)
Monday January 10, 2011, 6:52 pm
Sentinels....trite....very trite....and totally inapplicable to the issues here.

Monday January 10, 2011, 7:02 pm
John, Sue, Mary,

Loved the comments, you brought up interesting points!

Everyone, my cat "Rasa" is wanting attention, so I am putting in "The Expendables" and hope to be completely entertained by this extremely violent movie. I then plan on watching "The Last Airbender" and hope that its for of violence is equally entertaining. Last, I will watch "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" which promises more entertainment in the form of violence!

The three movies will provide hours of visual, emotional violence in the comfort of my home!

I will return to Care2 and vent my shock and outrage of the horrible happenings occurring around us at a later time.

Monday January 10, 2011, 7:05 pm

Yes... trite... very trite and totally inapplicable to the issues here!

Caitlin M (104)
Monday January 10, 2011, 7:12 pm
Well, ladies and gentlemen, are you finished SNIPING at each other yet?

Monday January 10, 2011, 7:24 pm

Just saw the trailers for "The Next Three Days", "Rambo", "From Paris with Love" and "The Daybreakers!" The Liberal Left out in Hollywood really knows how to entertain the masses with death, violence, anger, hate... I've got to get these quality movies in my collection!

Jae A (316)
Monday January 10, 2011, 7:48 pm
What? Not much difference between angry words and crosshairs..? Have you even seen a deer fall down dead from any kind of words ? I haven't but many do fall dead in their tracks when crosshairs of a rifle bear down on them.

Angry words can motivate people to act on such words but I don't think that was your point.

Angry words with key words like..' afraid of....guns...reload...take aim'...are words that are dangerous. Angry words can not all go under one 'catagory' either; different kinds to use with different meanings. The angry word choice is where the difference expressing discourse..another expressing violence and calsl for others to take actions as to their angry words are two very different expressions of anger. "You idiot"..can be said in anger as can.."Kill him''..two very different types of anger being expressed.

JW H. (2)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:00 pm
Kit and other fools:
The Dems have been using terms like "cross hairs" "target" since the Clintonistas tried to take our freedom from us. Dems used targets on 2004 campaign ads. Its on both sides but you are blind to the truth (or fear it). Obama has called the republicans enemies. What about the hate speech of Jeremiah Wright, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore - it goes on and on. I don't see you hypocrites speaking out when the left loonies spout hate toward Bush or Chaney. I seriously doubt that you would be saying anything if the congresswoman was a republican - You are all so filled with hate that it is sickening.

Monday January 10, 2011, 8:03 pm
Mchael Moore = Hate Speech????? WTF???

Joseph B (2)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:14 pm
HMMM- Let's see The Ed Shultz Show? Hate speech? Incite to violence? Katrina- The use of human suffering to politically destroy George Bush? The books and plays written by angry leftists that describe how to kill George Bush? Incite to violence?? Hate and rage? To use this tradigy to try to silence those that do not believe as you do is despacable and yet this is part and parcel of the looney left that can't argue on the merrits of their causes but resort to name calling and demonizing their opponents! Just look at the last election!
When Maj.Hassan murdered so many at Ft Hood, we were told not to jump to conclusions! Examine all the facts, just don't judge! The left said this- Where is the same caution here?
It wasn't but an hour after the Arizona shooting many jumped at the chance to try to tar and feather the tea party and Palin with outlandish acusations! Why not wait for the facts?? Don't jump to conclusions!
The Tea Party is here to stay- Palin is here to stay- We deserve the right to discourse as much as Ed Schultz, The NY Times and the Huffington Post! You will never silence us as you desperately want to! You leftists have gotten away with hate mongering far too long- We are Americans as you are and will be heard and we will not be silenced!
As it turns out the Arizona shooter had more in common with the Left as it turns out! How about that!
The politics of personal destruction, pioneered by the Left and shamefully at work again in Arizona!

Terry King (113)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:15 pm
You attract wingnuts like moths to a flame!

Kit B (276)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:21 pm
The loons are here, I'm going to bed.

Terry King (113)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:26 pm
Here is the difference: I might say that you are an ignorant asshole but I would never say you deserved to die! See the difference?

Monday January 10, 2011, 8:30 pm
"Palin is here to stay"

Why would you want an elected official who is completely clueless to anything. If she does get elected to higher office, the United States will be laughed at by the international community. This is a woman who doesn't know her own constitution, thinks she can see Russia from an Alaskan island and likes to aerial hunt. This woman was found guilty of ethic violations, doesn't believe in teaching sex ed in high school but wants to use her "daughter Bristol as a teaching tool for others."

If this woman ever reaches the White House, we will all know what the next reality show will be.

Monday January 10, 2011, 8:32 pm
Jae A,

You bring up one side. But words are just as deadly and have inspired acts of violence beyond imagination. Our own leaders use words to rally us to war!

How many people have died in War... that began from the very words our leaders used?

I like your train of thought... but I got to get back to my movie. Sly and his buddy took out 41 people with their plane!

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:38 pm
The main issue I have with this whole "violent political rhetoric" thing is where do you draw the line? The same conservatives that are up in arms that someone would dare critisize Palin's "don't retreat, reload" campaign, or her use of crosshairs on states, are also the same conservatives that say violence in video games, song lyrics, and movies are bad because they encourage people to act out that violence in real life. It's very hypocritical of them.

Monday January 10, 2011, 8:42 pm
Jae A,

We Americans are so stupid, gullible and easily manipulated by Democrats, Republicans and the media... I challenge you to watch a documentary titled War Made Easy!"

Narrated by Sean Penn and based on the work of author Norman Solomon, WAR MADE EASY reaches into the Orwellian memory hole to expose 50 years of government spin and media collusion that has dragged our country into war after war from Vietnam to Iraq.

Trust me... plenty of dears have been killed by words. Including Deers!

Norm C (74)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:46 pm
Anger is an understandable reaction to a senseless and foreseeable tragedy. Acting senselessly on that anger is quite another.

We've all had a couple days to digest this horrible event. Yes, the liars, fear and hate-mongers share a responsibility, a big one, for the climate that pervades our political discouse. Yes, the mainstream personalities and stars who mindlessly parrot the absurd comments by the liars also bear a huge responsibility for failing to set the record straight, for not debunking the lies and gross exaggerations. Yes, a number of politicians also share a huge responsibility for legitimizing the lies and spreading new ones.

It should be pointed out that there is a difference between deliberately, angrily telling lies and maliciously demonizing your opponents on the one hand and angrily objecting. This is the stock in trade almost exclusively of one side in the "debate".

Nothing should be seen as an attack on passion. Passion is a good thing unless it turns into mind-numbing fanticism and then to violence. Passion and communications skill are a good thing. But they turn ugly and deadly when used to lie and to perpetuate lies. I'm thinking of the dishonest O'Keefe attack on ACORN and the Breitbart video on Shirley Sherrod. And no, Michael Moore does not fit into this scenario. Many may not like his movies, but he does not lie. His detractors do, but he does not.

The real problem, as I see it, is that there is no instantaeous arbiter of reality and honesty on the airwaves and in the press and internet. Anyone can say anything without fear of being caught out, of being shown to one's followers of being a liar. I'm not sure how something like this could be carried out. But we need a really serious effort at fact checking, at truth telling.

Carmen S (69)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:50 pm
Sentinels Watch, Pitt had quite a long list of hateful and dangerous quotes from your beloved right.
Now since you say they both do the same thing I dare you to make a list of quotes as hateful and dangerous that my liberals have said and backed up by the date and when it was said.

If you can show me that, then, I will believe as you that they are both rotten. And Ed Shultz sticks up for the American people all the time. What he says is the truth and does not incite people to do dangerous acts.

Kimberly W. (5)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:52 pm
Thankyou Kit and hang in there. So for everyone who is saying we shouldn't be blaming, is it ok if I say I'd like stricter laws on guns passed? I want to see the ban of assault weapons reinstated. We had it for 10 years till Bush refused to resign it. The killer had access to a weapon that could shoot more rounds than what police officers are generally issued. I don't want anyone having the ability to buy a machine gun and I've been saying it since it was lifted. Put the ban back on!

Barbara K (60)
Monday January 10, 2011, 8:55 pm
I'm so glad to read Mr. Pitt's open letter. He has it spelled out just like it is. The righties can try, but no one will be fooled by the excuses they come up with. We have listened to their threats of violence, their calls for violence. their hate speeches, their fearmongering, their faked rage for too long. WE HAVE HEARD IT ALL, get it? We witnessed the trash talk and we thought maybe you would grow up, but you have grown worse instead. Don't try your righteous indignation on us, we witnessed what was said for ourselves and we have heard enough of your loud mouths. We will not stand for any more of your un-American rants, so just shut up and crawl back into the sewer you crawled out of.

Deb E (63)
Monday January 10, 2011, 9:10 pm
I can't believe some of these comments. Noted

Monday January 10, 2011, 9:30 pm
Robert & Carmen S.,

You're mistaken... go back and read what I have wrote. I don't support the right!

It is not my beloved right!

People read what they want to read. They don't read what has been written!

Sheryl G (360)
Monday January 10, 2011, 9:31 pm
American Indians always knew words have power. One was always gave great thought before the words passed their lips.

What more can be said, that this man had not. Applause and thank you for standing up and speaking these words.

Monday January 10, 2011, 9:33 pm
Kimberly W.,

Please go back and check your facts... If memory serves, the Killer used a Glock, which is standard issue for many Police departments in our country and in other parts of the world!

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 9:43 pm
See what I mean! They think we are like them. We don't think. We're reactionists!

You need to know this, Morris et al. Liberals have a tight knit, truth network. It's always been there. We've always watched your network. We know more about it than you do or care to think about. We HAVE been shouting the warnings from the roof top. If you weren't there, don't pretend like you were or that you know anything and we don't when you have been too lazy or distracted or both to pay attention.

Every comment by the righties demonstrates that they are clueless to Liberals. What they know and see and for how long. You see us all as having just boarded this ship. You are grossly mistaken.

Now. Take it from there and quit with the bull shit. Okay?

Monday January 10, 2011, 9:46 pm
Robert & Carmen S.,

You wrote: "Now since you say they both do the same thing I dare you to make a list of quotes as hateful and dangerous that my liberals have said and backed up by the date and when it was said."

Prove to me they haven't!

Mr Pitt begins with the title "The Wrath of Fools" he can't even begin an open letter without name calling!

He goes on with, "You false patriots..." ... media personalities who lied through your stinking teeth" and I could go on and on and on. Everything he wrote is true... but he uses the same technique of attacks, the same style of attacks, the same methodology of incitement that Republicans use!

He is no different than the very people he is attacking!


Monday January 10, 2011, 9:52 pm
Not much changes

When talking to a interviewer before he was to be hung for war crimes( why is it that only the losers of a war are war criminals?). Hermon Goering had this to say.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country

Some things you can always count on.

Mr Pitt is using a very old tried and proven attack!

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 9:54 pm
SW. The republican fascist supporters have a pattern of hate and threats, over a long time, while liberals don't. They are a 180 from us, period. Some of us are going to show more anger than others. The right would LOVE it if we would just stay calm and lay down. We have been. The right has gone too far and some people voice it different than others. So what. What's your point? How is it a defense or is it just that tired old distraction tactic that the right uses. We never have bought it, Not now either. Save your breath.

Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 9:58 pm
Learn something about Liberals...

Stop swinging your thing. It's unimpressive.

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:04 pm
How to be a denialist

"Martin McKee, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who also studies denial, has identified six tactics that all denialist movements use. "I'm not suggesting there is a manual somewhere, but one can see these elements, to varying degrees, in many settings," he says (The European Journal of Public Health, vol 19, p 2)."

* 1. Allege that there's a conspiracy. Claim that scientific consensus has arisen through collusion rather than the accumulation of evidence.
* 2. Use fake experts to support your story. "Denial always starts with a cadre of pseudo-experts with some credentials that create a facade of credibility," says Seth Kalichman of the University of Connecticut.
* 3. Cherry-pick the evidence: trumpet whatever appears to support your case and ignore or rubbish the rest. Carry on trotting out supportive evidence even after it has been discredited.
* 4. Create impossible standards for your opponents. Claim that the existing evidence is not good enough and demand more. If your opponent comes up with evidence you have demanded, move the goalposts.
* 5. Use logical fallacies. Hitler opposed smoking, so anti-smoking measures are Nazi. Deliberately misrepresent the scientific consensus and then knock down your straw man.
* 6. Manufacture doubt. Falsely portray scientists as so divided that basing policy on their advice would be premature. Insist "both sides" must be heard and cry censorship when "dissenting" arguments or experts are rejected.
* 7. When confronted with a viewpoint that you don't agree with challenge the person to come up with evidence and then ignore or dismiss it as not meeting your narrow conditions!

Kind of sounds like Palin, Limbaugh and Pitt except they aren't scientists!

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:12 pm
Jason R.,

I wish the Liberals would start swinging their thing... our country is in a mess, and there is enough blame to go around to all sides!

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:24 pm
I don't care if a person is Republican, Democrat, Liberal, leans to the left, leans to the right or is right in the middle... I don't care if they call themselves the Moral Majority. The fact remains they all share the blame for the mess this country is in!


Past Member (0)
Monday January 10, 2011, 10:26 pm
They're your people! You are all supposed to be telling them what you want. Not the other way around!

We can't fight corporate fascism with out you. You have shown an unwillingness. We remain in a depression because your reps say you don't want to raise taxes on the rich even though the right has said otherwise. Here we sit. Your move. What are you going to do. Get control or keep talking to us?

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:37 pm

If you are going to post a link, please have the courtesy of providing a HTML hyperlink. The code is very simple and easy!

Jason's link for Fascist America, in 10 easy steps by Naomi Wolf

You can Google how to do it or send me a note and I will show you how to do it!

Next thing. Republicans and Democrats are guilty of going to extremes and it is hurting our Nation!

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:42 pm
When Democrats Attack


Monday January 10, 2011, 10:44 pm

Republican Mudslinging On An Industrial Scale

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:47 pm

Liberal attack ads push medical reform

Monday January 10, 2011, 10:49 pm

Liberal Group Releases Obama Attack Ad…Using Obama’s Own Words

Donn M (56)
Monday January 10, 2011, 11:53 pm
Well, I hope someone feels better after that silly rant.

Right on, Morris.


William K (308)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 12:03 am
SW: The list that Pitt makes of the hateful comments all contain statements about killing people on the left. KILLING PEOPLE. You compare Pitt's "name calling" to people wishing death on anyone they disagree with. If you cannot see the difference between the two then I have no reason to believe a single thing you have to say. You are just another of these apologists for the real hate-mongers that are trying to silence dissent by playing a holier-than-thou manipulative crazy-making game, trying to convince everyone that they are wrong for trying to stand up to the abusers. You cannot equate dissent and disagreement with death threats and calls for ideological genocide.

Morris G: Actually, even if Loughner did not name any commentators, the ideas that he espoused on his blogs are actually very, very similar to the paranoid BS that Beck spews. Your conclusion that Loughner is liberal because he didn't have a political affiliation is so full of logical flaws that it is laughable. If you are trying to float the idea Loughner is a liberal, you had better have some real evidence to back that claim up.

As to the claim that Pitt never blames the shooter: THAT'S A TOTAL LOAD OF BS! Quote from article:
"A man named Jared Lee Loughner waded into the group and fired a bullet into Rep. Giffords' skull at point-blank range, before turning his weapon on others in the crowd. Christina-Taylor Greene, who would have celebrated her tenth birthday on the tenth anniversary of 9/11, was shot in the chest and killed. The woman who brought her to the event was also shot. Gabriel Zimmerman, who served as Rep. Giffords' director of community outreach, was also killed. He was 30 years old, and was recently engaged to be married. U.S. District Judge John Roll, who had served on the bench for twenty years, was also killed. Dorwin Stoddard, a church volunteer, died after putting his body between his wife and the hail of bullets. His wife was also shot. Two of Rep. Giffords' constituents, Dorothy Morris and Phyllis Scheck, were also killed. All in all, 31 shots were fired before several brave souls tackled Loughner, disarmed him, and wrestled him to the ground."

Seems to me that he is pretty clear that Loughner did the deed. He also adds: "You helped. Yes, damn you, you helped."

The article is about how all of these various hate-mongers have created a climate in which the killer acted. This is not an either/or situation of killer or violence-condoning climate, but on of both/and. The fact that Loughner is nuts and pulled the trigger is obvious and does not bear much need for comment. The fact that his craziness was enabled by many hate-filled ideologues calling for people to be killed that were having their voices amplified by the media megaphone in order for political gain, however, is less obvious, and bears discussion because it is actually the greater danger.

Had there not been this media-amplified rhetoric of violence-condoning and preying on fears and paranoia, then the lone nutcase is forced to confront his delusions, because he is alone with them, no one else in society will reinforce or enable them, and the delusions are nowhere to be found outside of the crazy-person's own skull. With the violence-charged and fear and paranoia-mongering, however, the lone crazy person finds his delusions confirmed and validated by society, and he feels like he is participating in and part pf society by acting out the violent role that society created.

Crazy never occurs in a vacuum. SW, what you are pointing out, with all of your lists of violent movies, is that violence is somewhat ubiquitous in our culture. BINGO! GOLD STAR FOR YOU! You are gradually catching up to where all these people that you are criticizing are at. Yes, we know that violence is ubiquitous in our society, thank you. Why are you trying to silence the voices of those who are trying to reverse the trend? You are not going after the perpetrators of this violent rhetoric, which means that if you had your way, we would all be holding our tongues while the people who are the real threat continue to run roughshod over the rest of us. But that is what you want, isn't it?

I say bravo to William Rivers Pitt for speaking truth to power and being simultaneously honest about his feelings without compromising the intellect.

Luciana D (30)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 2:06 am
Thanks, Kit, for letting me read this excellent article and I totally agree with its contents. I'm with you all, and very sad and concerned about what's happening in the U.S.
But why can you Americans buy all weapons you want? The list of well kown people having been shot in the U.S. is very long : Martin Luther King, John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, John Lennon, just to name some of them, and many, many innocent people. There is a huge amount of comments every time one of those tragedies occur, but nobody talks about stopping selling weapons. Why?

Chien Chao (105)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 2:48 am

Jae A (316)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 3:51 am
The insistence of some to continue to rally behind one who uses violence in her hate/greed/fear and war mongering that is now known to be a clear and present danger to others is mind boggling to me but hey, we didn't expect them to accept the fact that everyone now knows that those are the reasons they support her...which makes them her equal in that sense of common ground and shame. We will get use to those who hang on to their denial of those facts, just as before, but now...their likeness when it comes to hate,fear mongering and love of violence as a way to silence thoe who don't agree with them... is as well know as $arah$. Supporting her...they support the same dangerous mindset. That's what comes to mind whenever I see a post by any one of them.

Bill C (91)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:00 am
Sad, very sad. The Third Reich is by no means a particular German historical problem. There is no semantic difference between the hate speech of a Goebbels or Streicher and a Glen Beck or Sarah Palin. How long will America deny reality? Thanks so much for posting this, Miss Kitty.

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:07 am
William Kirkham,

Everything you point out, I realize. I really do!

I just don't buy into people's "My politics is better than you're politics" argument. Mr. Pitt's letter is just another form of hate, anger filled rhetoric that doesn't solve a thing!

The paragraph that you quote is an explanation of events, a prelude to his rant. It does not in any way assign blame. It is a dry explanation!

When I read that letter, I see a hate filled rant... and judging by the number of green stars and friend requests I received, there are a people who agree with me.

This thread (and Mr Pitts letter) is proof of why there are Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, Unitarians and what have you. This thread (and Mr Pitts letter) is proof of why we have Baptist, Southern Baptist, Catholics, or Moonies. This thread (and Mr Pitts letter) is proof of why we have so many versions of the Bible in print.

I understand this!

When I read Mr Pitts letter, I see the hate and anger in his words. I see another opportunist who is using a tragedy to make a name for himself... at the expense of others I see a person who does not offer any practical solutions.

I understand this!

I just don't buy into peoples politics anymore!

The claim that the Liberals, Democrats or Republicans are so much better than the other does not stand the test of time!

I am saddened by the fact that so many people on this thread fail to comprehend the fact that their own party affiliation is guilty of collusion with the other side. Guilty of the hate and rhetoric our nation now faces. Guilty of sleeping with the enemy. Guilty of authorizing torture. Guilty of authorizing two wars!

Want proof?

The sad fact is that there was only one person tried to stop this mess that we are now in and that person was U.S. Representative for California's 9th congressional district Barbara Lee (D)... The Liberals, the Democrats, the Independents gave the Republicans (willingly gave) the power to lead our Nation into the mess we now face. Out of 431 elected officials, ten sat in silence afraid to vote... only one had the courage to say no... Barbara Lee!

The sad fact that two people didn't even have the guts to vote... Senators Larry Craig (R) and Jesse Helms (R) and sat in silence as 98 of their peers voted for the mess we now face!


KS Goh (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:20 am
Thanks for the article.

Geynell Eskite (68)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:29 am
To WIlliam Rivers Pitt I give a non-religious AMEN.

Thanks Kit.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:53 am
Wow! It's a rant I have said that before, and rants are used by the authors and the readers to vent frustration, this one in no way proposes or encourages violence.

There is no way you can reasonably or intellectually compare the current, albeit temporary anger of the left with the intentional malicious, vindictive and non stop ramblings of the right.

What's the difference? Maybe far too many differences to list here, but what makes one person swing to the left another to the right? It's what one side or the other states as it's foundation or cornerstone of perception of the world. We liberals do in fact read and understand the constitution. We do understand as would any one reading the document, that this was not designed to be a small government, just one that would fully function without repeating the same "sins" of the prior government (British). It functioned well for over 200+ years, as a government of the people, though often run (and abused) by those of the elite class. Now the right must justify the drastic and divisive incursion of the Supreme Court by allowing the United States to be owned and run by the corporatocracy. Were this done by the normal right-v-left arguments and discussions, no one would care and middle ground could be found. It is no longer in the realm of simple discussions, exchanges of ideas and search for middle ground. They have loosed the beasts, their blood dripping angry animals and they have fed and encouraged them by prodding more and applauding every vindictive word. Before the Palin onslaught we have had the occasional 'idiot child' run for higher office before and they have in the past been rejected out right by the "main stream" of the parties. This one, like the drunken McCarthy of the fifties, has been embraced as though she alone had the answers for the future. Then we have the virulent media support, that can not be muted nor negated. The examples of the dangerous lies by those of the right wing media are just too long to list, the same is true for the money that pours in from the right wing wealthy. We have no balanced scale of justice it is tilted by the gold on one side. The right takes no responsibility because this climate of hate and fear is exactly what they desire, keep the people distracted and fighting.

The point of this article is not to explain a murder, it is to make clear that when freedom of speech is so abused as it has been, we invite this violence. Just as when a farmer tends his fields and plants seeds there an expectation of crops to grow. The seeds of hate and violence have been planted and the seeds are growing.


Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:55 am
If you are anti-abortion... our Government considers you to be a Terrorist!

If you are a Constitutionalists... our Government considers you to be a Terrorist!

If you are ex US Military... our Government considers you to be a Terrorist!

Do you want proof? Then click on this link!

Do you need even more proof? Click on this link

What are Liberals doing about this?

What are Democrats doing about this?

What are Republicans doing about this?

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:01 am

I agree with you!

I just don't buy into peoples argument that their particular group is superior!

Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:32 am
This is not about superiority, but gathering with those of common or similar ideas of life style and desires, whether that be left or right. If left can accept but heartly disagree with the right, why then is the inverse not true? We do know why don't we?

Though over the years I have grown weary of the endless Bull Sh!t that seems to pour forth from what was once the extreme right. Now the extreme has become the center stable for the right, and I am very tired of the gathering of the illiterate voices of no reason, and no intellect.

The right lost it's one intellectual voice when Buckley died, they no longer desire to have that anchor, rather turning to imbecilic, cartoonish Beckians - and all that it implies.

Jarrod Page (8)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:37 am

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:37 am

Washington Post Concedes: Gunman Acted On Mental Illness, Not Political Rhetoric

The Arizona tragedy By Jennifer Rubin

Jared Lee Loughner was a registered independent, didn't vote in 2010 election

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:39 am

I agree with you... I am tired of the endless BS from Republicans!

Suzanne O (33)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:47 am
Sentinels, I agree with your last statement "I just don't buy into peoples argument that their particular group is superior!".

I agree.

The more I hear of the shooter, he was certainly troubled. It is hard to tell what his thoughts on anything were. He was a nut, waiting for something to set him off.

Yes, the heated rhetoric, lies and just crap has been spewed upon us all for quite some time from all angles. There is no innocent party to the propaganda laid upon the American people. I think we all deserve better, but to insist one side owns goodness and the other not. We will never achieve anything...very sad!

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:11 am

You are correct, nobody knows the motivation of the shooter. But, as you can see, that doesn't stop people from the blame game. It doesn't stop the finger pointing. It doesn't stop people from arguing with each other!

I standby my earlier post:

Rather than excusing his horrible actions by blaming others... lets do something radical. Let's see what a full investigation discovers. Let us have an impartial jury hear the case and render a fair verdict. Let us have a Judge render a decision based on the juries verdict!

Let us do this instead of having political personalities like William Rivers Pitt work us up into a rage!

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:33 am
> As to the claim that Pitt never blames the shooter:
> THAT'S A TOTAL LOAD OF BS! Quote from article:

@William: He mentions that the shooter did the deed, yes. But at no point does he blame the shooter. He blames everyone else for the fact that this man was not able to control his actions. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and being responsible for your own actions?

Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:42 am
I think this and similar posts have done the needed task of allowing people to voice their feeling and release some anger. I see that as a good thing, better to have a safe place to vent then keep all internalized.

Sentinels, I think that a fair investigation will proceed and he (Loughner) will be tried in a court of law, then fade into history. As do all of these crack pots who find a need for their 15 minutes of fame at the end of gun.

But the political dialogue in this country must be toned down, people must come to their senses.

Once again (this is getting boring) the shooter has been identified, that was NOT the point of this article, is it just too subtle for you?

From the article:

A man named Jared Lee Loughner waded into the group and fired a bullet into Rep. Giffords' skull at point-blank range, before turning his weapon on others in the crowd. Christina-Taylor Greene, who would have celebrated her tenth birthday on the tenth anniversary of 9/11, was shot in the chest and killed.

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:22 am

You wrote: "Once again (this is getting boring) the shooter has been identified, that was NOT the point of this article, is it just too subtle for you?"

Did you read what I posted? Did you look at the links I posted? Can you describe in three sentences or less the main theme of what I have been saying for this thread?

Just as I don't buy into the Tea Party's political spin on this tragedy, I don't buy into Mr. Pitt's spin!

Hans Mueller (591)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:23 am
Now that the author of this post has, once again, taken this terrible national tragedy and successfully stirred those with maleable minds into a state of frenzy, maybe the readers would like to see some of the results. Are the peaceful teachings of Jesus, Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King gone forever? Is this hate mongering, headline grabbing post an example of what remains? Shame!

William Rivers Pitt "The God you Bible-spewing frauds love to flog the rest of us with must have been in that supermarket crowd with her on Saturday, with His hand on her shoulder, because it is nothing short of a full-fledged miracle she survived at all.

You who worship Jesus at the top of your lungs.

Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored.

The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed.

Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity."

Roseanne D. "The problem is, their attention span is not long enough to read it. And their comprehension skills are lacking since they have to be told what to think by Faux News"

Kit B. "I think it's good to take the time right after a traumatizing event to express our grief, horror, fear and anger."

Linda R. "Truer words have never been spoken Mr. Pit hit the nail on the head with this article."

Sue D. "Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with this article. It does not promote hate or violence, nor does it lie."

Kit B. "they ignore the most crucial element of speech - responsibility."

Terry King "Kit. You attract wingnuts like moths to a flame!

Jason R. "We don't think. We're reactionists!"

Jason R. "The republican fascist supporters have a pattern of hate and threats, over a long time, while liberals don't."

Bill C. "The Third Reich is by no means a particular German historical problem."

Kit B. "The seeds of hate and violence have been planted and the seeds are growing."

Kit B. "The right lost it's one intellectual voice when Buckley died."


Vallee R (280)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:26 am
I agree with Margaret - the news channels are included in the creating of paranoia. Even NPR is getting so they don't tell us the whole truth and Democracy Now tries but seems to have technical issues everytime something important is being reported.

patricia lasek (317)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:11 am
I think many here have lost the point of this letter. Mr. Pitt hates the call to violence by the far-right. The Democrats do not call for violence, they attack policy and voting records.

I totally agree with him on this.

patricia lasek (317)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:13 am
Remember this little ditty from your childhoods?

"Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you."

Terry B (649)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:17 am
You cannot currently send a star to Margaret (or to Kit) because you have done so within the last week.

(I owe you an apologym Margaret!)

Terry B (649)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:19 am
Sherriff Dupnik of Pima County for Governor of Arizona ---> time for a rational and intelligent human being to take over from the divisive incompetents in Phoenix.

Lucille Herwald (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:43 am
THere's no denying the hate and call for violence that has come predominantly from far right extremist leaders. Mr. PItt has written a very cleansing letter that does not respond with violence, but calls them out on it. I agree with him completely. Why should we deny, or let the media deny, the truth of what is going on. America has always been a violent nation, yes, but our political discourse was never like this -- a 24 hour HATE cycle. No single person is responsible but it has created an atmosphere of animosity, distrust of government and call to arms. That toxic stream HAS to have an affect over time. This is the reason why so many people feared and loathed Obama before he was even sworn in. We have all received emails from friends and family calling him a terrorist and a secret muslim among other things. Only yesterday i received an email from a neighbor making fun of our health care and suggesting that people over 65 should shoot politicians so they can go to jail to get better healthcare! This is what this toxic environment has inspired! How horrifying is that in light of what has happened? Where is the decency? Though i was also upset over the comments by John King and David Gergen, I suspect the mainstream media (like the mainstream politicians) are probably downplaying this because they fear more copycats and more agitation of unbalanced individuals and they're trying to head it off. But Mr. Pitt's letter doesn't fuel my anger any further (it was already there), the opposite is true -- it validates my concerns for this country and inspires me to continue to speak out against the violent rhetoric in a peaceful manner.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:50 am
Buying into which party is better...We're in a depression that will last beyond 5 years. Here is the score card...

Is that how it's done here?

Lucille Herwald (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:54 am
This page is not about the national debt.

Scarlett P (126)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 9:16 am
I can't believe that anyone would believe God was responsible for this... God is a God of love and life... You seem to forget Satan is also here too... He is attacking body, mind, and soul...

I will pray for those who believe these lies that My God is responsible... People still have freedom of choice... It is people who choose to do bad things... This man chose to commit murder.. God had nothing to do with it...

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 9:27 am
Saying we think we're better with nothing to show just seems so empty, Lucille. The chart brings light to the answer. We are not corporate fascists. We MUST be better! Democrats have worked tirelessly to make sure the middle class thrives. Republican fascists tore it down! They spent us into a depression. They deregulated the sharks and let them loot us into poverty. They lied us into war and killed our kids. This page is about them and their anti social ways.

I asked a really important question...
"They're your people! You are all supposed to be telling them what you want. Not the other way around!

We can't fight corporate fascism with out you. You have shown an unwillingness. We remain in a depression because your reps say you don't want to raise taxes on the rich even though the right has said otherwise. Here we sit. Your move. What are you going to do. Get control or keep talking to us?"

What was the answer?

"If you are going to post a link, please have the courtesy of providing a HTML hyperlink. The code is very simple and easy!

Jason's link for Fascist America, in 10 easy steps by Naomi Wolf "

Are you people EVER going to talk about OUR problem? When will you put down the rhetoric, look us in the eye and talk about our problems?
Does any one remember 1957? Yes. It IS about the debt/depression. It's about the tearing down of this democracy. It's about the hate that's been injected while it was taking place. It's about the insecurity left in its wake. The insanity of the brain washed.


Barbara K (60)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 9:39 am
Kit, I agree with everything you've said, and thankful for the letter from Mr. Pitts. It puts it all into perspective. Violent words beget violent actions. That the Republicans are so willing to let their party be destroyed by the unhinged fans of FAKE Nooz is a mystery; I think they are afraid to take them on and caved like jello to their demands. The Rs and the righties are willing to destroy this country and the government that has worked for over 200 years, and for what? To feed the corporate greed who bought the seats that some of these whack-jobs now hold in Congress. Let us make this next 2 years the shortest takeover in history by the Rs and their intelligence-deprived righties. Nothing will be accomplished in the next 2 years, all the Rs want to do is take away what we have and give nothing back. Their followers will lose all they have if the rest of us do too. They were not bright enough to figure out that they are fighting against themselves. Thanks, Kit, great post.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 11:55 am,0,2687256.story

Elizabeth B (11)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 12:18 pm
A very sad state of affairs

Jacob Davis (44)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 12:50 pm

Linda G (187)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:11 pm
Part of the problem with the rhetoric today is that once again we are consumed by labels. We think that all Republicans are alike, all Tea Partiers are alike, All Democrats are alike. Nothing could be further from the truth. Not all on the right are wing nuts, not all tea partiers are racist or bigots, not all on the left are communists or lazy welfare recipients. If we are to succeed as a country we have to look past the labels and take responsibility for our actions and our words.

William Pitt is correct that those he named are filled with violence,distortions, hate speech and fear mongering. However, there are those on the left that do the same thing... they just may not get the same coverage. There are extremists on both sides of the spectrum.

Everytime we call a TeaPartier a racist or bigot, lumping them all in the same pot, we are adding to the hate. Everytime we call a Republican a Republicant, a repugnican (the list goes on) we are adding to the hate. Everytime we call a Democrat a communist, a baby killer (the list goes on) we are adding to the hate.

Perhaps one day we will be able to air our ideas without the name calling, finger pointing, my side is better than your side rhetoric. Perhaps we will be able to say what we are for rather than what we are against and perhaps one day we will be able to state our case without incendiary rhetoric based on lies. You think?

linda b (186)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:15 pm
Noted thank you Kit

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:24 pm
The new study shows that there is no cross over between the right and left. We are in fact, genetically different. We process information on a completely different level.

The responses on this story here demonstrate that elegantly. I think we have a pressing decision to make. The "united states" will never be united.

Do we stay married or divorce and move to another town?

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:25 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with what Pitt wrote to the despicable mindless cretins who keep on dumbing down an already demented public. More power to you, Pitt!

Roger G (154)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:39 pm
great reminder that the "beast" is not dead (and for those who do not understand this reference, by the "beast" we mean neo-nazi fascist dogma)

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 1:50 pm
Ah yes, Kit, the wingnuts are slobbering all over their keyboards as they troll liberal sites to see how we've seen through the continuing and never-ending Corporate Media's mind f&%# on them. Troll, troll, troll away! Morris, that you justify defending Loughner in any form, explicit or implicit, shows what you are.

By the way, I've noticed that anyone who lists on their profile the Care2 group "Former Silent Majority" as a site to hang out on is dubious at best. First, you never WERE the "majority". You were part of a movement filled with undereducated, paranoid conservatards who spewed blatant racism and classism all the way to the Middle East and back. Now that you've been blathering on for the past decade, only to have those you have so staunchly supported dismantle the Constitution with every breath they took, you suddenly seem like no one heard your cries of despair over that. B.S. Secondly, the very name "Former Silent Majority" is an oxymoron for those who spout it, just like "enemy combatants" are no longer "prisoners of war". Just like you call yourselves in so many instances "Christians". You are neither, and we know it. There are a hell of a lot more of us than you care to hurt your teensy brains thinking about. Now THAT's a majority.

What so wrong, Former Silent Majority, with the fact that progressives (opposite of regressives, ya know?) are NOW the "former" "silent" "majority"? Huh? Get used to it, wingnuts.

And stay out of my garden.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 2:01 pm
Pit bulls & Labradors, Tom!

Bad dog! No!

Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 2:21 pm
Welcome back, Tom. Thanks all of you who came here, read the open letter and understood the concept from Pitt. I can remember when this country was so divided that it was like an ouroboros, (the snake that eats it's tail) and even then it was not as openly violent but came to end with the worst violence of later half of this century, the death of JFK. I see some things that are hauntingly similar, many hated Kennedy - truly hated him not because he was a democrat, but he was different - a Catholic. Once he was elected the ugliness began in force, he could do nothing right, he was a commie, a pinko ready to sell out our country. See the correlation?

Obama is not a Muslim, a Kenyan nor a Hitler, fodder for the fools.

The man who caused the actual violence is in jail will be handled by our judicial system, I have no concerns about that. I have concern about the overall climate of hate and violence that has been created here. It must stop, we must find ways - even if they be legal means to stop the encouragement of violent language and by extension violent feelings.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 2:49 pm
The shadow government has been around a long time, Kit. They killed Lincoln and then took Boothe to India to hide out while they executed a red haired guy.
When a liberal is assassinated, you never know. One thing is for sure. immediately following, the cover up begins. The media is demonstrating that 24/7.

Janis B (7)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 3:06 pm
Very well put. and absolutely true in the statements the letter makes.

Tuesday January 11, 2011, 3:13 pm
"I will pray for those who believe these lies that My God is responsible..."

I get extremely nervous when someone is praying for other people to THEIR God's. Please don't pray for me Scarlett to YOUR God, I would prefer that you don't.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 3:30 pm
Aww, it's OK Margaret, Scarlett drops by to scorn and pray fairly often.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 3:46 pm
They won't stop. They think that they are right. This is a mental illness, the gripping of their brains by their own stunted mental capacities. They will it, and roll in it. All we can do is speak loudly and never stop speaking loudly. We must make demands of change not from them, but from the intelligent, caring leaders who are relate to. Gabby spoke out and was ignored, made light of, (ha ha ha, you can't pin us down for that). This low level human is infantile, always hoping that by some back door harm will come to those who are superior in mind and spirit to themselves. History has shown us this repeatedly: The best of the bunch, the most spiritually adept, the kindest, the most innocent of men, and the most gentle of creatures are the ones who are killed by those who are very ignorant. We must go around them and make the changes happen in other ways. They will not be changing in their current lifetimes. Only WE can demand change among ourselves, and laws can be passed, and we can honor the life of Christina, who wished to bring love and peace out of death and hate.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 4:01 pm
To underscore my observations, has anyone seen any of the right wingers shed a tear over these deaths and injuries? I hear only their continued ranting of defensive self righteousness. They always attempt to prove that they are not inferior to those who are superior by insulting, threatening physically or materially, overpowering. I repeat that they are not going to change, and they refuse to fell emotion for the loss of life as long as it is not in their own ranks. They will never acknowledge the words of Gabby or the wishes of Christina. These higher things are completely lost to them, the door to enlightenment is not only shut to them, but too far away for them to even see. Their only way is to remain mentally unstable and lacking in human qualities, this is ALL they have! We can never expect to see a thorn tree produce fruit, simply because we are fruit tress producing fruit.

Kimberly W. (5)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:00 pm
Sentenial and all
Yea I knew I 'd get questioned cause I figured I didn't say the right gun, my gun speak isn't very polished so it's harder for me to remember. My overall point was still correct. We did have a ban on assault weapons for 10 years. The idea behind it was we didn't need everyone having access to weapons that shoot off alot of rounds at once. The only reason these weapons are used is to kill alot of people at once- they have no other use! I don't think thats' in anyway disputed. So the idea was it made people like you, me, our Law Enforcement officers (who I think the majority of Law enforcement was actually upset when the ban on assault weapons was lifted-because it puts their lives in even more danger) etc...safer. I don't know if the Glock was a weapon that was previously banned for 10 years, my initial guess is yes, but I don't know. He had more rounds than is typically issued to Police (I saw a police officer being interviewed saying it). The amount of clips? he had and weather any and everyone should be able to easily have access is definitely in question I think it was 36 rounds. If he hadn't been stopped when reloading he would have killed many more. So why does anyone think that anybody should be alllowed access to these weapons and the amunition that allows them to shoot off alot of rounds at once? Keep your hunting rifles, keep your pistols and lets put the bans on assault weapons back in place. Some people are going to snap and I don't think it's wise to make it as EASY as Possible to committ cold blooded mass murder. You may point to your rights and such and I do agree. We also All have the right to go to the grocery store, send ourr kids to school, go to a political even etc..without worrying as much about getting blown away along with many people around you. We need to place a ban back on the assault weapons or at least place limits on the ammunition. If anyone disagrees I really would like to know WHY?.

Terry B (649)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:28 pm
Sharron Angle is obtuse.

(Sorry about that!)

patricia lasek (317)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:44 pm
Kimberly, you 're not completely wrong. Assault weapons were banned until I think it was 2004. GW refused to sign the extension on the ban. It wasn't Glocks in particular, but assault weapons. Hunters don't need them to kill adeer. If they do, they shouldn't be hunting. No one needs more than 10 rounds in a gun unless they intend to kill a lot of people.

Yes, we need some stricter gun control. But I still uphold our right to own a weapon.

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 5:44 pm
Lots of hate and name calling from most of the people on this site:Yvette, jason, Kit, Thomas - where does your hate come from? Typical left hate speech - just like Obama, Biden, Jerimiah Wright, Kieth O et al. Are you not paying attention - How cruel you are (Yvette, jason, Kit, Thomas) to take a tragedy like this and use it to distort truth. Shameless!

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:17 pm
Where did you go when we were having that conversation last night, JW...H? Now you want to send everything for a loop tonight? Play the distraction game? Sorry. Don't even try.


Kit B (276)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:19 pm
Thanks for proving the point of this article JW H...all of your posts are exactly the reason for articles like this one. We have no hate, only many questions why the right can not speak without using abusive dialogue. Sadly we have no need to distort any thing, it's all laid out there for all to see.

Yes, Patricia - the assault weapon ban became ineffective in 2004.

Very clever, Terry.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:22 pm
Every monopoly media outlet is doing the same thing. Find ANY THING that takes this away from being political. They've got their cover up about wrapped up but I heard a slip tonight. His last notes were about the monetary system, corruption and brain washing. All political.

Take note of how JW...H tries to turn the hate we pinned on them back on us. The "brain washing" thing could well be in that same spin tactic.

If the media worked that hard to make sure the fascists get a free pass. What does the future look like.

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:27 pm
I agree with Patricia. We may need more gun "management" ("control" is impossible, IMHO), but I, too, support an armed citizenry. (So does the ACLU, JW H; look it up). No, it was not Glocks in particular, it was a range of mostly "long guns" that are fully- and semi-automatic. Extended magazines for semiauto pistols may have been part of the ban, too, but a stock Beretta 92 holds 15+1, enough to counter a couple of vigilante Brown-Shirted Jackbooted Beckerheads hell bent on killing liberals. At least for a few minutes until the neighbor shows up with an AK-47 or an assortment of other choice defensive weapons to assist in the rights co-opting, un-Constitutional melee.

JW H, Troller Extraordinaire, my "assault" on the witless, nincompoopedness of your ilk has nothing to do with hate. SHows how much reading comprehension, or lack thereof, you possess. I support YOUR right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even to keep and bear arms. It's when conservatards want to DENY me those same rights, and those who think waaaaaay differently about Civil Rights and Constitutionalities that they will subvert the very document they purport to defend; and when so-called Christians make broad, sweeping judgments of other religions they don't know a damn thing about; and when folks like that certifiable bimbo, Sarah Palin, cowardly remove posts from online that state her obvious contempt for people a helluva lot smarter and more moral and ethical than she will ever hope to be-----well, it just brings out the best in me. Love to you, JW.

But stay out of my garden, ya hear?

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:38 pm
Yes. It was the ban on extended clips too. Bush's actions killed people. Ma Bush is okay with it, though.

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:39 pm

Send JW H a green star to prove to him how much we "typical leftists - just like Obama, Biden, Jerimiah Wright, Kieth O et al." actually "hate" him! God knows, his profile page implies that he needs some folks to care.

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 6:58 pm
Your welcome

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:05 pm
Even before Bush was elected president, the kill-Bush talk and imagery started. When Governor Bush was delivering his 2000 convention speech, Craig Kilborn, a CBS talk-show host, showed him on the screen with the words “SNIPERS WANTED.” Six years later, Bill Maher, the comedian-pundit, was having a conversation with John Kerry. He asked the senator what he had gotten his wife for her birthday. Kerry answered that he had taken her to Vermont. Maher said, “You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.” (New Hampshire is an early primary state, of course.) Kerry said, “Or I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.” (This is the same Kerry who joked in 1988, “Somebody told me the other day that the Secret Service has orders that if George Bush is shot, they’re to shoot Quayle.”) Also in 2006, the New York comptroller, Alan Hevesi, spoke to graduating students at Queens College. He said that his fellow Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer, would “put a bullet between the president’s eyes if he could get away with it.”

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:06 pm
A columnist in Britain’s Guardian, Charlie Brooker, wrote, “John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?” Betty Williams, the Irishwoman who won the Nobel Peace Prize, said, “I have a very hard time with this word ‘non-violence,’ because I don’t believe that I am non-violent. . . . Right now, I would love to kill George Bush.” A novelist, Nicholson Baker, was so filled with rage at Bush, he wrote a novel mulling the question of assassinating him. In Britain, there was a TV movie — a “fictional documentary” — that was a kind of fantasy: on the assassination of Bush. (It was called Death of a President.) Etc., etc.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:06 pm
Quite the profile, J. It's like you're nobody. Is that allowed here? Doesn't seem right. Kind of creepy.

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:11 pm
Headline in Daily Kos: “My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!” This headline is referring to Rep. Giffords

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:52 pm
* National Public Radio legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg:

[I]f there is retributive justice [Sen. Jesse Helms] will get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it.

* USA Today syndicated columnist Julianne Malveaux, on Clarence Thomas:

I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease.

* Washington Post syndicated columnist Richard Cohen:

For hypocrisy, for sheer gall, [Newt] Gingrich should be hanged.

* Comedian and (former) talk show host Craig Kilborn [Caption under footage of George W. Bush]:

Snipers Wanted

* Members of the St. Petersburg Democratic Club:

And then there’s Rumsfeld who said of Iraq “We have our good days and our bad days.” We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say “This is one of our bad days” and pull the trigger.

* Actor Alec Baldwin on Conan O’Brien:

[I]f we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! [crowd cheers] Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families.


Donn M (56)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 7:54 pm
Yes, JW, it's quite apparent from the comments on this thread that hatemongers and ignoramuses do exist in the leftist world. They prove themselves the equal of the very folks they condemn. And their narrow-mindedness doesn't even allow them to recognize it. So sad.

Linda, you are so right about the error of lumping all people of a certain label together. It's one of the stupidest things a person can do, not to recognize individuals and variety within a group. I'm sure we all know deep down that Republicans are not all heartless and Democrats are not all brainless, but it seems to give some people pleasure to villify based on others beliefs, political persuasion, skin color or heritage, etc.

Genetic studies, thank you for the laugh Jason. Lots of people change their belief systems, guess that means they can change their genetics, too.

Keep praying Scarlett, it certainly can't hurt.

Sheriff Dupnik is both irresponsible and unprofessional. Perhaps the good people of his county will vote him out. He seems not to care about having actual evidence before offering his personal opinion.

JW H. (2)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:02 pm
Politics in America has a history of mudslinging but to claim that it is thrown in one direction is just wrong. It is quite clear now that the Tucson shooter had no ties to the right and may have some left leaning opinions. But he alone is responsible; not Palin or some radio personality. Oh, Thomas and Jason - calling me names doesn't change the truth but simply reveals the shallowness of your opinion - lets be civil here boys.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 8:58 pm
The study is indisputable. Where's my divorce? Lets get it done. You know you want it.

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 9:03 pm
Certainly, JW, let's be civil. I'll start by retracting my broad, sweep against the Former Silent Majority members. A peek at their message boards does show an ideology that espouses illogical bents, but that does not mean that all members of that group are Sarah Palin fanatics. I just happen to reject those that are for reasons that are more than obvious. Yes, leftists can be crazy as bat feces, too, but even though they may spew some hip-shot, emotional baggage at those they despise they rarely carry through on their out-loud-thinking, especially when it comes to physical violence just because they disagree with them.

My thing is that I also reject illogical conclusions leapt at by people who condemn others they disagree with based on what they believe. When otherwise intelligent folks refuse to confront science and reason in favor of deep-seated mythological ideologies, I turn away. I call it out. That's just me. That doesn't mean it is un-American or wrong for folks to have different ideologies than mine; but it just ain't me, babe. For instance, the whole haploid human religious belief system to me is just factually and scientifically unsupportable. But I don't say "You can't believe that or you're un-American!" I just simply call into question their stances that are explicitly or implicitly BASED on that false dichotomy.

So, civility is welcome. Try it here. You'll find it is not the average posting board at the FSM. (Hey, that stands for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, too! My kind of folks, those pirates.)

Peace out.

William K (308)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 11:04 pm
I dispute the claim that there is no apparent political leaning in Loughner's writings, or that he is not a tea bagger, or that he is even liberal. Here is a link to his last Youtube post:

Starting at about 2:41 in the video. He indicates the current government is not run according to the Constitution, that current US laws are unconstitutional and treasonous, calls for a revolution to take back the government, and wants to go back to the gold standard.

Where, oh where have I heard this rhetoric before?


William K (308)
Tuesday January 11, 2011, 11:35 pm
Let's see:

My arguments:
1. Loughner is responsible for committing mass murder, has been apprehended, and will be held accountable.
2. When public officials, whose voices are being amplified by the media, prey on people's fears and paranoia for their own gain, and suggest that violence and killing your opponents is a legitimate solution for political disputes, then those individuals are cultivating an environment in which people can perceive violence as a legitimate course of political action. Those public officials are responsible for what they say, and are accountable for inciting violence.

What I am NOT arguing: Loughner is not responsible for his actions, and that public officials killed those people. Nevertheless, this is precisely what some crazy-makers here would have you believe that I and others are arguing.

The crazy-makers' argument:
dissent/disagreement = outrage = hate = hate-speech = inciting violence, ergo dissent/disagreement = inciting violence. There are several leaps in the (il)logic that are never justified (because they cannot be).

So, I can look at my own behavior, say in the run-up to the 2010 elections, and use it as an example. OK, then: My political viewpoints are informed by observations that current Republican policy has resulted in hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of innocent people killed abroad, the destruction of the lives of millions of people domestically, and inestimable and possibly irreversible damage to the environment. This really shocks and offends my moral, emotional and intellectual sensitivities, and cannot fathom how people can be so callous, cruel and indifferent to human life, and then see and hear them lie and manipulate the American people into becoming sociopaths like themselves. I feel very strongly about this, and become vocal on these pages here at Care2 to try and affect some change by speaking out and reaching out to others. I incite people to vote.

Now, by the crazy-makers arguments, my dissent is hate, my expression of the dissent is hate-speech and my actions are equivalent to inciting to violence.

To the crazy-makers:
Please tell me how these are the same? And don't tell me that I do not understand, because I do. I also want you to know how condescending and insulting your attitude is, and how angering it is to essentially be called a murderer when I have done no such thing.

My question to you is, if you can see where I am coming from, how can you be so indifferent to human life and suffering? It seems that this never enters into your thought processes, for even when these FACTS are presented to you, you seem to continue on as if you are totally oblivious to them. Are you just insensitive? Or are you here to deliberately push your sociopathic agenda, by trying to deceive the rest of us socially conscious people into thinking that we are to blame for the tragedy?

Susan L (150)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 1:23 am
Hans, you say "Now that the author of this post has, once again, taken this terrible national tragedy and successfully stirred those with maleable minds into a state of frenzy, maybe the readers would like to see some of the results. Are the peaceful teachings of Jesus, Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King gone forever? Is this hate mongering, headline grabbing post an example of what remains? Shame!"
You then include a part of Pitt's OP that refers directly to quotes and posts by obviously Bigoted people. After that you offer quotes left by posters here, though ONLY by those that support the article.
Some of those quotes may be strong, but most are taken out of context. The comments here (with a few exceptions) are not 'maleable minds stirred into a state of frenzy" - that's what we are objecting to! It appears to me that you would like us to think you are "above all that" but you are simply attempting to stir the flames yourself, intentionally.
NO One is 'blaming' Palin or Beck or any other of the politicaly extreme-right talking heads. The whole POINT in these comments is: that to promote violence and stir the masses (the ones that see you as a role model because they admire you)... who will always include some with less than capable reasoning skills. In THAT regard, especially since there is so much hate talk of 'killing', 'targeting', 'bombing', etc, it is extremely foolish, dangerous and lacking any responsibility. (and to who might use "Target" stores as a "violent" term for the sake of rediculous argument, you know full well this is NOT what is being referred to)
At least Sentinel Watch is consistent in his observation that all parties have said and acted in horrible ways. Anger is a part of life that not a single person is immune to. He can disagree with any of us, but has NOT resorted to nastiness or self-righteousness.
William has an excellent point, those who just want to spin an argument to their favor will TRY to convince others by twisting it in a way they know is opposite. Because someone 'hates' HATE and the actions, speech, violence, judgment that goes with it, does not also make them a hater. Anyone who argues that is without common sense.

Jae A (316)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:42 am
Two or more wrongs don't make a right as the saying goes so throw out the rediculous rethoric that all sides are using these dangerous / group is far out ahead of all the others and we know which that is. Fact's all out of control and it all needs to be stopped now. Dubya used the fear/hate/racist/gender rethoric to the point of it being set in stone for the GOP, Tea Bagger group, along with Skin Heads and White Surpremist as their tactics for votes of those who ...few,hate, and so forth. That division and tactic has done more harm to our nation than anything prior to his administration. It will not be easy to get 'all' to stop with the insanity of guns,hate,fear,and violence as rallying points for those who have had such success using it. Where things go from here...that is the question we are all curious about. Fact from here on out..that sort of spewing from any side will quickly be tagged as just what it is..dangerous. Will it continue to work for those like $arah who have no other means by which to comunicate or anything else to say actually...Time will tell I suppose. I do hope for a change in the way politicians and talking heads make their political points be known, other than through this type of dangerous and unacceptable rethoric, that is the topic on many cae2 threads at this well as blogs and other sites around the world. Will people actually do more than give lip service to the ills of such public speaking if they are the ones that it really appealed to in the first place? That is something I am really curious about. It took listeners and supporters to keep this kind of hate/fear/violent speaking going. It will take them all to end it.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 5:18 am
I have watched Bill Maher regularly in "Real Time with Bill Maher" he is, by his own description a libertarian, by stating that he waves a flag at all libertarians to remember just what that party was meant to support, or not support. He is first a comedian, his humor is almost exclusively political. That any one would transform humor into serious political statements is not only silly, it's pathetic. If that ridiculous list of quotes is in any way meant to counter the continuous vile rhetoric of the Fox crowd, then go do more research.

Rather then take the "down retreat - reload" remark often repeated by Palin, we can put it back into the context of each speech, it would not be diluted it would be more obvious exactly what she meant. Therefore, as you ardent admirers know, it becomes more of an indictment of her desire to have her opponents fearful of the "nuts" out there. If this were not true, then with each time a democratic member of congress received a death threat she would have retracted those remarks, asked her followers to calm down, and then toned down her future speeches. But that's not her style, which is to use language that incites a crowd to anger, and apparently to hide when it comes back to bite her in the arse. Even Roger Ailes the head of Fox has made a statement asking his people to "tone it down" - we shall see how that goes.

patricia lasek (317)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 5:33 am
Here's what Mama Grizzly had to say for herself.

Sarah Palin has finally weighed in with a long, thoughtful reaction to the Arizona tragedy and all the talk that it was somehow the result of "heated rhetoric." Her essay is called America's Enduring Strength.

Here's the nut of her Facebook post:

"Vigorous and spirited public debates during elections are among our most cherished traditions. And after the election, we shake hands and get back to work, and often both sides find common ground back in D.C. and elsewhere. If you don’t like a person’s vision for the country, you’re free to debate that vision. If you don’t like their ideas, you’re free to propose better ideas. But, especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding, journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn. That is reprehensible.

There are those who claim political rhetoric is to blame for the despicable act of this deranged, apparently apolitical criminal. And they claim political debate has somehow gotten more heated just recently. But when was it less heated? Back in those “calm days” when political figures literally settled their differences with dueling pistols? In an ideal world all discourse would be civil and all disagreements cordial. But our Founding Fathers knew they weren’t designing a system for perfect men and women. If men and women were angels, there would be no need for government. Our Founders’ genius was to design a system that helped settle the inevitable conflicts caused by our imperfect passions in civil ways. So, we must condemn violence if our Republic is to endure.

As I said while campaigning for others last March in Arizona during a very heated primary race, “We know violence isn’t the answer. When we ‘take up our arms’, we’re talking about our vote.” Yes, our debates are full of passion, but we settle our political differences respectfully at the ballot box – as we did just two months ago, and as our Republic enables us to do again in the next election, and the next. That’s who we are as Americans and how we were meant to be. Public discourse and debate isn’t a sign of crisis, but of our enduring strength. It is part of why America is exceptional."

Read more:

Total cop-out. does she realize that duelling is illegal?

Luciana D (30)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 6:39 am
This is about keeping weapons at home. I know you Americans think that owing a weapon is legitime. But let me explain how it works here in Europe (I'm not trying to teach you anything, just explaining).
First of all, you don't see any weapon shops here. To be able to owe a rifle, you must first get your "hunter certificate" delivered by the Justice Department. Then you'll have to pay a certain amount of money to renew it every year. To be able to owe a gun, you must get a special permission (also from the Justice Department) which is only granted for "sport" purposes, and after checking your previous criminal record.
As a result, no fear of being shot on purpose or by mistake by crazy people, or even by the police, as nobody walks outside with a gun. In the contrary, when a policeman stops you by any reason it may be, he will never threaten you by pointing a gun at you ! I'm always very shocked when I see how rude American policemen can be towards their own people, just because they are also afraid of being shot !
I must admit I also owe very dangerous weapons at home : many, many sharp knives in my kitchen drawers!
Cheers to you.


Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 6:55 am
I wonder what Palin pays her speech writers, and I wonder if any one had the guts to say, "Sarah, if you play this right, you've been handed the political opporntunity of a lifetime." Probably not, because this speech only continues the Bull Crap and reaffirms her belief that she has done nothing wrong. Her mindless, brainless follwers will lap it up, the rest of us will analyze and think about it, and see through this self serving crap. Where is the mea-cupla? She, like others in the past says this then is what our founders wanted, violent rhetoric to stir up distrust. No, that is not what public discourse is suppose to be about.

I'm not asking for all of us to gather for a group hug or a basket of warm fuzzies, I expect others to disagree, it's part of the nature of politics and of human interaction. What I don't expect and do not want to see is a person using the public stage to incite hate or knowingly spread lies.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:09 am
Why are assault weapon bans even being discussed here? The Glock 19 is a handgun. it is not an assault weapon. From the factory, it comes with a 10 round magazine. The 32 round magazine he used was an after-market add on. Glocks have never been banned, and the Glock 19 is no different than any other handgun made by Smith & Wesson, Beretta, or Colt. It is the handgun carried by around 40% of U.S. police departments.

Also, to those who think European style gun control will work in America, it won't. Several American cities have implemented complete bans on handguns in the past. And the result was that violent crime went UP, not down. Criminals get more bold when they know that law abiding citizens don't have guns.

Also, most serial killers preferred to strangle their victims rather than shooting them. Should we ban rope?

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:30 am
First, please give a factual reference for proof that most serial killers strangle their victims, not it has any relavance here. Next, people from other countries often have thoughts and questions about the American obsession with guns. Why should they NOT be allowed to say as much here?

The point is not the Glock but the enhanced clip, and my Glock will from the factory allow 14 +1 in the pipe. I keep it within reach at night not because I'm fearful of a serial killer but because I know damn well that by the police can get to me, I would be dead if a creep meaning harm, came into my home. I'm not a gun collector, but my husband was, I know a great deal about guns of many types and origins. They offer protection in extreme situations and food for the hunter, of course in today's world few are real hunters and fewer still will eat their kill.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:50 am
Holy smoke! I'm not going to come knocking on your door at night!

William K (308)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:50 am
No, we don't settle anything by dueling anymore. We apparently just gun our opponents down indiscriminantly.

Sarah says that we should debate things and propose better solutions, yet even though that is precisely what we have been doing, she says that we are inciting hate! She is giving a perfecg example of the crazy-maker argu,ent that I describe above.

Her statement that we shake hands and work together after heated elections is laughable, given how the Republicans have behaved after the last two elections.

patricia lasek (317)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:56 am
Kit, I too keep a loaded gun at my bedside. There are weapons scattered throughout the house. No, there are no children in my house ever. When you live in a rural area, you have to be prepared for anything including bear as evidenced from by my photo albums. Have I ever fired at a living thing? An emphatic NO! Would I if necessary? YES!

You're right about her William. They didn't stop the crazy dialogue after the elections and play nice. I don't know if they can. Hence, I use the term, RepublicanTs.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:03 am
Guess your husband knows better than to come in late and unannounced Patricia!

Thomas H (37)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:14 am
"You cannot currently send a star to Kit because you have done so within the last week." Well, phooey.

Good call, Hans; no one has any business knocking on someone's door at night without giving a shout out over the phone first. I have stated before that the reason I own guns is the same as Kit B's; not fearful of a serial killer stalking my family. But the fact that I live "out in the country" means the good Sheriff is not able to reach me in those few seconds it takes an intruder to do some harm within my house.

My factory Beretta 92 (aka M9) has a 15-round clip plus one in the chamber. My family sleeps better at night out here in the woods knowing that fact. It is not a very good concealed weapon unless skinny folks like me carry it under a big coat. So I don't carry it. However, given the craziness of the current political status in the US, I do carry others when I go out. I don't collect, I jsut cover the bases as best I can, under the circumstances.

"I keep a weather eye on the horizon, back to the wall,
I like to see who's coming through the door, that's all.
It's the old Army training kicking in.
I'm not complaining, it's just the world we live in.
In below the radar, they want to spoil our fun.
In the meantime, I'm cleaning my gun."

~Mark Knopfler, a Brit

Question: what are the gun laws in Italy, where the Beretta is/was manufactured? Just curious and no time to look it up.

Luciana D (30)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:41 am
Thomas H. : just ckecked in Italy : three kinds of authorizations, very similar to France.
First : Hunting weapons (like in France, authorization delivered by the justice Dept.)
Second : "Sport" guns (like in France concerning the authorization delivery).
Third : Special authorization for heavily threatened people, like guardians, etc. No legal possibility for the simple guy like you, or me !
In my opinion, laws are the same in all European countries.
Of course there are also illegal weapons circulating, specially arriving from the old URSS countries. But this is really and exception, and a normal guy like you and me would never buy one of those without risking jail !

Luciana D (30)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:50 am
By the way,Thomas, your Beretta was fabricated in the town where I come from, Brescia, in the North of Italy!

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:54 am
Kit B: Jefferey Dahmer, BTK, the Green River Killer, and John Wayne Gacy all strangled most of their victims.

I have no problem with a high capacity magazine ban in concept. My primary self defense weapon is a .357 Magnum revolver actually, and I am fully confident that 6 shots is enough for any realistic self defense situation.

However, a high capacity magazine ban will not be effective for two reasons:

(1) With practice, a semi-auto handgun can be reloaded in well under 2 seconds. I can reload my Cold Commander in one second actually.

(2) There are millions of high capacity magazines already out on the streets which cannot be gotten off the streets. Banning them will only create a criminal black market for them.

So while I have no problem in concept with a ban, in reality, it simply won't accomplish anything.


Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 9:18 am
Also, the serial killer reference is relevant because it makes a point. Literally hundreds of people have been killed in violent crimes by strangulation. Yet we don't hear people crying about banning rope. Ropes don't kill people. People kill people. Guns don't kill people either. People kill people.

I'm not saying people from Europe should not be allowed to ask questions here. My comment about European style gun control not working in America was directed at Americans who try to point to European countries with strict gun laws as an example of why we should have strict gun laws here.

And of course, I made a typo in my last post. Colt Commander. Not Cold Commander. The Colt Commander is my primary concealed carry gun. The .357 Magnum stays at home in my bedroom. It's too big to carry (4 inch barrel).

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 9:30 am
Palin said, "I'm not a violent person". How do you explain a wealthy person driving up to a slow moose and shooting it 5 times.
This woman CAN'T have an IQ over 85. The same goes for any one that admires her or would vote for her.

Sure. Democrats may have said a few stupid things but they're not talking to the rabid, violent right. When is the last time a Democrat shot and killed some one on the right? All of the pricks responsible for all of the hate speech, lies and brain washing are still alive.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 10:59 am
Now that it has been conclusively determined that this terrible national tragedy would not have happened had it not been for Sarah Palin, perhaps future posts and discussions could center on 1) why the conservatives hate and threaten the liberals but not visa versa, 2) why conservatives are always posting derogatory articles and comments on Care2, about liberals, but not visa versa, AND last but not least 3) what is the matter with our societal safety nets that allow such a tragedy to happen..

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 11:19 am
Not to mention. The minute this news came out, every republican site that had violence on their web pages, scrubbed them "clean" and the fascist media (fox) immediately gave the order to tone down. Liberals, on the other hand didn't have to do any of that. THAT is the bottom line.

No Hans. You don't listen. Not just Palin. The whole culture of fascist media and hate for Liberals. After ALL that has been written, you still spin the big lie. Why is that?

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 11:26 am
Exactly Jason -

1) why do the conservatives hate and threaten the liberals but not visa versa, 2) why are conservatives always posting derogatory articles and comments on Care2, about liberals, but not visa versa,

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 11:39 am
We are not inciting violence. Just an end to corporate fascism and violence against liberals. Why do you resist that? Why don't you comprehend? Why the defense of them? Stop digging! Read the study.


Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 11:47 am
Jason, I do think that you might be missing my questions. I'm not talking about liberals. I'm talking about conservatives. "Why do they do the things they do"?

1) why do the conservatives hate and threaten the liberals but not visa versa, 2) why are conservatives always posting derogatory articles and comments on Care2, about liberals, but not visa versa

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 12:48 pm
Because they are brain washed by lies that misrepresent liberals. We all know the answer to that question. A fascist controlled media!
Liberal policy actually protects the middle class, Right and left. Republican fascist policy sends us into a depression and holds us there.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 12:54 pm
Jason, are you saying that there are some decent people in the "right" middle class, just like the left?

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 1:25 pm
So, hundreds have been killed by strangulation, still don't see how that applies to a nut job using an extended clip to shot during the light of day in public.

Silly question - no one is saying that our neighbors and friends might not be republican, many are. This about the national dialogue. Those who use freedom of speech as a weapon.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 1:42 pm
"Because they are brain washed"

Then Jason and Kit, if many neighbors and friends are Republicans (conservatives) then why are they susceptible to brain washing and liberals are able to fend off brain washing? Wouldn't it be best for all if liberals would share their anti brain washing tactics with their Republican friends?

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 1:56 pm
Jason, don't get suckered into this.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:02 pm
What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:05 pm
Kit B, again I am not against a high capacity magazine ban in principle. Just don't think it will have any effect when it comes to preventing things like this from happening. And again, my point with the strangulation thing, is that guns are the only time people blame the tool when it is used to do evil. People don't blame knifes, or baseball bats, or ropes, when those items are used to kill people. But as soon as a gun is used, people start screaming that we need more gun control.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:23 pm
I think people are hyper responsive to gun violence and don't think we need to discuss the whys. I do not think that all weapons other then guns are ignored. I can see cutting my food with a knife, not shooting the plate with a gun, most things used to commit violence have at least a dual purpose. That and the fact that a gun can kill with one well aimed shot. A knife may not and strangulation can take 3-5 minutes. The gun has been a "bone" of contention for many years and for various reason. After thinking about I do believe I have changed my mind about the sale of assault rifles without a solid means of background checks and maybe even a waiting period.
Though I doubt that issue would make to the floor of Congress. It doesn't really matter if you use an extended clip if your fast at changing the clip, which only needs practice.

The Colt model 1911 (.45) and a Glock (9mm) are my primary weapons and both stay at home.

Nancy M (169)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:28 pm
"Sarah, if you play this right, you've been handed the political opporntunity of a lifetime."

I was just saying that elsewhere. She COULD have taken the higher ground but didn't.

I am NOT a fan but have been truly sick of the way the media has handled this and her "role" in it. It is disgusting. SHE though did have a great opportunity to come out smelling like a rose.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:33 pm
Ain't that the truth, Nancy. Americans are ready to forgive almost anything with a simple apology, and she didn't have to grovel or beg forgiveness. Just to say I'm sorry so many are offended and that I may have contributed to atmosphere of violent rhetoric. - That would have had her soaring.


Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 2:52 pm
Brainwashed, gullible conservatives but some liberals refuse to offer a charitable helping hand -

Gullible Conservatives (Click Here)

Susan L (150)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:16 pm
Hans, if you are 'seriously' asking those questions, I give you credit, because SERIOUS discussion is what needs to happen in this country. I will give you some of my thoughts... People choose sides or find themselves on the same side as like-minded believers.

1) Conservatives tend to be (though not ALL of the mentioned, but a mix or a few they are VERY committed to) Wealthy or believe themselves to be, Business owners, executives, or Corporate people. People who are Religious that adhere to strict beliefs held by their particular faith, ie, against birth control, abortion, gay marriage, gay people in general, or even harsher and more restrictive religious beliefs and many have 'blind faith'. Those that consider themselves traditional or believe 'the good old days' really were 'that good.' Many just don't like too much change and want to stick to the status quo - whatever that may be. Many, because of their strict beliefs, believe their way is the only way and even sometimes they know what's best for everyone else.

2) Well, it is not Always one way or the other. This site though, by name alone and the given intent of it - a site of 'care about' - interpreted as human rights, animal rights, food safety, ecology, nature, humanity and other compassionate kinds of causes. Most believe in a 'cause' and some, unfortunately, don't like all the causes. Some also just like to be confrontational and some are simply 'jerks'

The question part of '2' I would answer by saying this... Since conservatives are a big part of what I mentioned in '1', there are those who are the 'leader, boss' type and there are the blind faith, and those who have been raised entitled, or some who have always had some kind of authority figure giving them limited choices. It's what they know. Liberals tend to be Spiritual, not Religious. Free thinkers who believe in 'to each their own'. Humanitarians, Service related kinds of workers, Arts and Culture - Individuals who want everyone to be a part of the whole, solve problems that benefit the most, keep the world beautiful and safe for ALL.

I'm not saying that all of Conservatives or Liberals are one way or the other. I just believe that 'as a group' Conservatives are more self aware, fearful, don't want change, and are (unfortunately) more conditioned to believe as they are told. Liberals question and want to make change that will improve the conditions for the majority.

3) Liberals are TRYING to 'share their anti-brainwashing tactics' with Conservatives, but we're not telling them the same thing as their 'leaders' so they are not willing to even hear it. It would take them out of their safe bubble. (sorry)

Suzanne O (33)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:36 pm
That's interesting! I have been coming back and reading as this goes on and on. I do not fit in to the above criteria, other than owning a small general contracting/construction business. Yes, I am conservative. I think setting a criteria and believing it to be true, sets you up for preconceived notions and the potential for missing out on some great people or allies who do care. The word profiling comes to mind. If you say you are this...then you must be that. Anyway, that is not what I wanted to respond to.

Up above someone (I lost where it was and forget who said it) named the right as the "rabid, violent right". Wow, that's wild and sad. I hope you don't think of all like that. I have to admit I have met some rabid right and they are as bad as the rabid left to me. Rabid is rabid! I have never personally met anyone with violent tendencies.

I just find it so sad that this is how you look at your fellow man. I really mean that. I am not trying to antagonize anyone, but I am stunned that we really have come to this level.

The spew is so despicable from everywhere, doesn't let up. How do you stop, take a break, and fix it? Seriously, do you all on the left truly believe the right are stupid, violent, rabid, uncaring? All of the right? Some of the right? Is there any hope of ever working together?

Sorry for the rant. The dialogue seems hopeless though. I always held out hope.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:40 pm
Thank you Sue. I really appreciate your sincere thoughts.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:41 pm
I'm back, Hans. Settle down. You don't read studies, do you. You just keep poking that stick. Stop. Answer that for yourself before you continue.

Why are Liberals immune from brain washing? Because we don't believe lies and we know how to use common sense and reasoning to spot them. We don't aspire to anything that cult like. The new studies show that we're different genetically. Republicans use fear and emotions that respond to those that spread fear. Liberals don't. Republicans are slower to respond to hand eye tests and are indecisive. Liberals are faster and more sure of themselves. I always knew that but now there is proof.
My neighbors are brain washed by fox. Extremely misinformed. We don't speak much. I don't like them.

Hans. You're really showing signs of an inability to comprehend things that you don't want to or have any intension of. Your constant questions on matters that have been answered over and over indicate that you're as stupid as the study shows or you enjoy screwing with Liberals. I believe it's both. You really should stop talking and start thinking. Sorry I'm so honest. I don't know any of the tricks. You are what you are and I am who I am.

Can we get that divorce now?

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 3:48 pm
Hans. Take it here...

Your questions are better answered there.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 4:04 pm
"Why are Liberals immune from brain washing? Because we don't believe lies and we know how to use common sense and reasoning to spot them."

Alright, so it's common sense and reasoning that conservatives are lacking. That sounds to me like inferior intellect. Do you think that it's due to lack of quality education. Perhaps if we gave conservatives a booster shot in education, that would help. Maybe there should be a minimum intellegence level established in order to vote.
I can see now why you are questioning my intellegence -
"Hans. You're really showing signs of an inability to comprehend things"
That's very perceptive on your part. It's true that I'm just a good ol' country boy.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 4:22 pm
That may have been me Suzanne, if so I also said (many times) that this is an immediate reaction with anger and frustration no longer kept from the boiling point, that you are seeing. I have also said, though didn't think it should have been needed, that the frustration is well directed at those who abuse both the public forum and the air ways. As for directing that anger at individuals, sure there are a few that couldn't allow people the privilege to just vent, they have to prod, push and even elevate the roiling boil.

I'm not attempting to have any one converted to my way of thinking. This is social perception of what I personally believe, not what I think everyone must believe.

By now I think everyone has had the opportunity to read Palin's comments today. Just wondering if you think using the term "blood libel" was in keeping with calming the waters, or dispelling anger. If you happen by some chance to not know what that is - it is very specific. Look it up, google will most surely have some references.

Susan L (150)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 4:39 pm
I really don't think this should be some big ARGUMENT. I have alot of conservative friends, and I certainly wouldn't call them stupid or of minimal intelligence, nor would I say they are unable to comprehend things. We have different views - the difference is as with some here, both sides, that don't want or don't know how to have differences without being mean. Hans, I think being a 'good ol' country boy' can be a great quality too. I believe, there is good and bad in all kinds of people. I have to admit, I just can't understand why there are people who must always believe they are 'correct' and are not willing to hear another opinion. I will hear any opinion so long as it is not hateful, demeaning or provokes violence. Haven't met any one yet who couldn't stand to learn a bit more.

Kimberly W. (5)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 5:17 pm
Patricia and all
Thank you Patricia, and I completely agree with you and uphold the right for people who want to own weapons to own them. I personally have never seen anyone I would vote for (and I'm clearly a liberal) want to take all guns from people, yet that's the continual accusation I hear. I remember way back when George B was running for the 1st time and I started seeing bumper stickers that said something like you can't take my guns, vote Bush/NRA, something like that, and I thought, what are they talking about? No one was or ever has been campaigning on taking peoples guns away. That's when this dangerous idea that crazy progressive liberals wanted to strip people of their ability to own a gun. It simply is not true, it's a lie that was promoted by the NRA and they have no plans of letting that big lie fall away anytime soon. That's how I see it anyway. Now we’re at a point that the idea of reinstating a ban on assault weapons (formally in place for 10 years) and assault weapons only, is already thought of as a lost battle. It's pretty sad that we live in a world where it is actually harder to own a gun and to legally hunt, than it is to get a weapon that shoots off multiple rounds at once. I have some uncles who like to hunt and from what I understand from them, hunters are pretty regulated, ya have to register, get a license, the DNR checks on ya occasionally etc...It's all accepted because it's reasonable. People need to follow some rules when hunting to ensure the safety of all, just like there’s speed limits etc... In the meantime, a person who decides to commit mass murder can drive on over to wal-mart and buy ammunition that shoots off 36 rounds at a time and go to a gun show and buy a Glock with ease-that's all it takes-it's that simple. I think MOST of us-Republicans, Dems, Independents etc.. are actually on the same side on this issue. I think most people would agree that it shouldn’t be that easy to get a hold of weapons and or the ammunition that shoots more than 12 rounds. I would settle for that, I would prefer the previous ban on assault weapons to be reinstated, but it’s not going to happen, so I’ll GLADLY settle for reducing the amount of clips and other sensible regulations. Regulation is not a bad word. We have REGULATION in EVERYTHING we do. I can’t go to the airport and bypass security to avoid waiting in line, I can’t drive whatever speed I want, yet anytime someone talks about regulation with guns it seems to translate into people’s 2nd amendment rights being taken away? I can’t bypass security at an airport because If I were severely unstable I might have a bomb or an assault weapon that would kill a lot of people at once. I don’t complain about my rights being taken away being taken away. I’m glad you agree and I think that anyone who does should demand and expect all of their elected officials to place appropriate regulation so we can all be a bit safer. Yes if that;s what they want ot do it thye will do it, but it will be a lot more difficult. The amount of difficulty could possibly stop them all together or at the very least greatly reduce the magnitude of the tragedy.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 6:52 pm
Hope everyone got a chance to hear President Obama's outstanding speech at the Memorial Service just now where he rebuked those that have spent there time trying to point the finger of blame. You know who you are. Shame on you!

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:04 pm
No shame on you. Who do you think you are? People here are not pointing fingers, well you are, most are not. They are venting and discussing feelings. Guess that was bit much for you to comprehend.

President Obama said that while he was in the room, Gabbie opened her eyes for the first time!!!

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:08 pm
I'm just being truthful, Sue. I've read the studies. They are legitimate.

...Sarah Palin took a huge 'hit' today because as it turns out, on her WEBSITE, she had a photo of Gabrielle Gifford in cross hairs (that is, as if you are looking at the subject through the scope of a gun)! Palin's excuse was that it was just part of her election campaign and that photo was supposed to be taken off the website last November. I figure the pic is gone, and Hubby suspects that her web wizard has been canned...

Nothing but lies. 24/7

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:16 pm
And the most shameful are those few that post hate mongering posts like this one, not just during this time of national tragedy but over and over again. One wonders what makes these few have the need to feed on the emotion of others.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:22 pm
Yeah, and some one FORCED you to come here and play superior? Don't think so. Pathetic, truly pathetic attention seeker.

Donn M (56)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 7:27 pm
Missed the speech. Glad to hear President Obama is discouraging this silly blame game.

William K (308)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:02 pm
Here are some other things that Obama said:
"You see, when a tragedy like this strikes, it is part of our nature to demand explanations - to try to impose some order on the chaos, and make sense out of that which seems senseless. Already we've seen a national conversation commence, not only about the motivations behind these killings, but about everything from the merits of gun safety laws to the adequacy of our mental health systems. Much of this process, of debating what might be done to prevent such tragedies in the future, is an essential ingredient in our exercise of self-government...We cannot and will not be passive in the face of such violence. We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of violence in the future."

Funny, yet when we have done just that, we have been called haters and told that we are to blame for ratcheting up the rhetoric, and told to be ashamed of ourselves.

Hans: you project a lot. A LOT.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:20 pm
Kit ignore the troll ! Everyone who he is baiting ignore the troll ! This troll looks up peoples profiles on Face Book and finds out their phone numbers and makes 3-4 AM calls . Ignore him he is nothing but the dirt on your shoe.

pam w (139)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:21 pm
(Oh, my.....I was away from this thread for a day or so....and here's "HANS"....still making it all about himself.)

It was a powerful, inspiring speech! He's a much finer President than we've seen in decades!

Donn M (56)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:25 pm
No trolls here that I know of.

Hans Mueller (591)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 8:29 pm
You are in need of mental help Linda R. Who is dumb enough to post their personal information on any public web site?

Jelica R (144)
Wednesday January 12, 2011, 9:09 pm

As much as I am for stopping the hate speech, I feel uneasy with the manner it (cal to end) is conducted calling Right, Left, Independent... to stop it. We all know where most of hatred speech come. I can't help but think that, if anybody who calls for RELOAD must be taken into spot-light and asked to explain what is the meaning of these words, many will stop using incendiary language.

General "let's be nice to each other" blames all sides, sharing and covering responsibility; and ultimately nothing will change.

Thank you Kit for posting. Interesting article and some excellent comments, too. Good to see that care2 people keep high standards for polite and argumentative discussion.


Thomas H (37)
Thursday January 13, 2011, 6:08 am
William, I think you're right.

Hans, you DO project a lot. Why did you attack Linda? Did she hit a nerve? You certainly waffle on tone and tenor in these posts. Anyway...

Great thread of posts. Sue, I really enjoy your thought out comments.

And Luciana, thanks for researching some European gun laws when I was too lazy myself!

Keep up the debate(s). That's what a Democracy is supposed to be like.

Past Member (0)
Thursday January 13, 2011, 11:20 am
Understanding Hans. Thanks Gaynell...

An excerpt from the book: "Right-Wing Authoritarianism " by Robert A. Altemeyer which describes the Right-wing personality type:

" can examine the following symptoms that reveal the authoritarian personality organized into four distinct catagories".

1: Faulty Reasoning — Right-wing authoritarians (RWAs) are more likely to:
Make many incorrect inferences from evidence.
Hold contradictory ideas that result from a cognitive attribute known as compartmentalized thinking, as illustrated by Orwellian doublethink.
Uncritically accept that many problems are ‘our most serious problem.’
Uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs.
Uncritically trust people who tell them what they want to hear.
Use many double standards in their thinking and judgments.

2: Hostility Toward Outgroups — RWAs are more likely to:
Weaken constitutional guarantees of liberty such as a Bill of Rights
Severely punish ‘common’ criminals in a role-playing situation.
Admit they obtain personal pleasure from punishing such people.
Be prejudiced against and hostile towards racial, ethnic, national, sexual, and linguistic minorities.
Volunteer to help the government persecute almost anyone.
Be mean-spirited toward those who have made mistakes and suffered.

3: Profound Character Attributes — RWAs are more likely to:
Be dogmatic.
Be zealots.
Be hypocrites.
Be absolutists
Be bullies when they have power over others.
Help cause and inflame intergroup conflict.
Seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive in situations requiring cooperation.
4: Blindness To One’s Own Failings And To The Failings Of Authority Figures Whom They Respect— RWAs are more likely to:

Believe they have no personal failings.
Avoid learning about their personal failings.
Be highly self-righteous.
Use religion to erase guilt over their acts and to maintain their self-righteousness.
These are the hallmarks of Right-wing Authoritarianism. Recognizing them and the degree to which a political party promotes them is a matter for the individual to determine.

It would be nice if he wanted to understand himself but we know that isn't going to happen.

Past Member (0)
Thursday January 13, 2011, 11:58 am
The first thing that conservatives cite in attempts to paint Jared Loughner as a liberal is by claiming that his favorite book was The Communist Manifesto, written by the German philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1848. This is an exaggeration. The book was listed as one of his favorites on his YouTube personal details page, but it was one of 20 books listed, including:

Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

Assuming these were really his favorite books and not just something we wrote on his profile, another book that immediately stands out there is Mein Kampf, arguably the most ultra-conservative book in the history of Western Literature, which was written and dictated by Adolf Hitler starting in 1923. When not conveniently leaving out that fact, many ultra-conservatives have actually been trying to state that Hitler was a liberal too, using that as further evidence that Loughner was a leftist.
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