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Nationalism Vs. Capitalism: Guess Which One Wins?

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: americans, constitution, corruption, dishonesty, Govtfearmongering, politics, propaganda, republicans )

- 2068 days ago -
Two Ideologies There are two very powerful, and fully internalized ideologies in today's America: one is nationalism and the other is capitalism.

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JL A (282)
Sunday July 22, 2012, 8:14 pm
Thanks for ensuring people can better understand these terms and concepts Kit.

Susanne R (234)
Sunday July 22, 2012, 10:01 pm
The ideology that wins, unfortunately, is the one that makes the powerful few richer and even more powerful.

Consider this excerpt from an article titled "The Evils of Unregulated Capitalism," which was written by Joseph Stiglitz:

"Just a few years ago, a powerful ideology - the belief in free and unfettered markets - brought the world to the brink of ruin. Even in its hey-day, from the early 1980s until 2007, US-style deregulated capitalism brought greater material well-being only to the very richest in the richest country of the world.

Indeed, over the course of this ideology's 30-year ascendance, most Americans saw their incomes decline or stagnate year after year.

Moreover, output growth in the United States was not economically sustainable. With so much of US national income going to so few, growth could continue only through consumption financed by a mounting pile of debt.

I [author Joseph Stigliz] was among those who hoped that, somehow, the financial crisis would teach Americans (and others) a lesson about the need for greater equality, stronger regulation, and a better balance between the market and government. Alas, that has not been the case."

The problem is not going to fix itself. Perhaps, as Kit mentioned, capitalism has run its course. But until we find a workable alternative, we need government regulation and unions!

pam w (139)
Sunday July 22, 2012, 10:07 pm
"Well, it would seem that nationalism has met its match. It has been overwhelmed by that which lies at the heart of capitalism: profit."

++++++++++++++++ That sums it up, all right! I've thought many times about the attempts to create a communist government and how it always fails...and WILL always fail, because it's directly in opposition to human nature.

When the US began turning "socialism" into a negative concept (right around the 50s, I think..."GODLESS COMMUNISM" became such a useful term and such a fine threat to keep us all in line with the agenda of capitalists! And, since Russia had become "Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic".....the concept was officially doomed!

If more of us were educated, we might begin to understand that, in many ways, we all WANT a socialistic system=--fire department, police department, social security, etc.

But....sadly.....many of us have been BRAINWASHED.

Thanks, do find the BEST "stuff."

Terrie Williams (798)
Monday July 23, 2012, 3:50 am
Yes, Communism will always fail, Pam...because like Capitalism, only a select few have their hands on the entire wealth of any said country. I always was amused at how the Communists ALWAYS hijack the term 'Socialist" or "Socialism" when in fact, there is no 'Socialis' concepts in use under Communism. They bastardized the term and that is why our government BRAINWASHED this entire population against their own best interests by further confusing the two systems.

I am a Democratic Socialist. Have been for over 2 decades. I deprogrammed myself by, gasp, educating myself on the different forms of governance. The closest one today to true Socialism is Finland and then the rest of the Netherlands. It works---in its most pure form. It is when peoples personal greed and lust for power hijack it and twist it into something it was never intended to be, does the world get something like the USSR or CCCP (China). China now has fused Communism with Fascism and is strill a Totalitarian nation.

Our government is trying to fuse Nationalism, Fascism and Capitalism together. It too will form a Totaliatian nation repleat with all the soul crushing slavery that will entail for 99 percent of the population. The rich, the very very rich and the obscenely rich will be just fine, as they always are because until we as human beings rid ourselves of our greeds, lusts and hatreds, there will never be a truly Democratic type of governance in this nation. Or, anywhere else in the world. Finland, right now, has it right. For how long is anyone's guess.

Capitalism has always favored the few instead of the many and always will. I hope you are right and that Capitalism is on its way out because I do not think the majority of this country is going to do well under Fascsim. There will be another revolution if not in our lifetimes, certainly in the lifetimes of our children.

Craig Pittman (52)
Monday July 23, 2012, 6:26 am
Excellent points well presented thanks Kit. I have also enjoyed the responses and observations made here.
Those who hold the wealth and power may have gone to the well one time too often in term of resource depletion and greed. More and more I am hearing the term, "fed up" when folks speak of the growing inequities in our society. Terrie, I rather think the revolution will come in our lifetime.

. (0)
Monday July 23, 2012, 7:42 am
An interesting article particularly pertinent at a time when the world's richest are being accused of hiding at least $21 tn, equivalent to the size of the US and Japenese economies combined. If everyone were to 'play fair' (that is to pay the tax they should) then we would all be a lot better off. I'm not sure how widely reported this matter has been but the BBC News website has provided an interesting article for anyone who is interested -

TomCat S (133)
Monday July 23, 2012, 9:41 am
Nationalism: Republicans routinely mistake this for patriotism.

Capitalism: We haven't used it in years. This is descending into corporate plutocracy.

Janelle Wong (71)
Monday July 23, 2012, 10:57 am
Just like in the movie War Games. There is no winner.

Monday July 23, 2012, 3:14 pm
Greed, wins!

Peace Monger (185)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 1:20 am
Nationalism Vs. Capitalism: Which One Wins?

Excellent question! The very idea a nation could think to cut itself off from the rest of the world boggles the mind.
While I agree each nation has an obligation to assure its citizens/residents are provided for to the best of the ruling govt, I find the idea of shunning the rest of the planet's population in favour of we'll take care of 'our' & nobody else', narrow minded & selfish. We, as a species are responsible not only for our brothers & sisters in our own nation, but also for those who are in need of help.
That being, I don't believe in waging war 'to liberate' (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) when it's fairly obvious these are ploys of multi-nationals to gain control of resources. Which leads me to the second point; Capitalism, or in the current case, PREDATORY capitalism.
Capitalism driven by conscience is the way forward where each person takes personal responsibility for the decisions we make when we purchase goods. Do we buy the cheap goods most likely made in sweat-shops & destroys natural resources & most likely pollutes our air/water/ soil,, or, do we look for Fair trade goods? Do we really need that latest gadget which is only the latest until another model comes out? Or, do we make do with what we have as our grandparents did?

Actually, I think that both nationalism & capitalism are related in broad strokes, however, in the current application, they are a negative force which affects the rest of the world. Reigning in greed & corruption is the first step towards a more sustainable future for our planet/race.
We the peoples of the world must stand up & say no to the current cry Salve Lucrum! by the corp powers who wish to rape our home of its resources for their ever burgeoning assets if we have any hope of saving our planet.
Working together as the human race we can over-come the profit driven society we've been falsely led to believe is our right.
To quote Ben O, "IF NOT NOW, WHEN?"
I'd send you a green star Kit for providing this mentally stimulating topic, but am not allowed because you've had your quota from me already this week, so my sincere thanks will have to suffice.

The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize that at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that this center is really everywhere, it is within each of us. ~Black Elk, Oglala Sioux


Paula M (39)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 1:42 pm
This debate is interesting because it reminds me of one of the failures of Socialism, which by transcending nationalism was supposed to promote world peace. In the actual test of history, however, Socialist movements have again and again allied themselves to the worst aspects of nationalism.

Perhaps capitalism's strength may be of more benefit to the world in this regard. As others have noted, it is rare for two countries with McDonald's restaurants to war against each other.

Janelle Wong (71)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 2:46 pm
Nationalism versus Capitalism. Why does it matter when we've got Obama -

GE is Moving from Wisconsin:

Keep your eye on Waukesha , Wisconsin ......Their biggest employer just moved out. General Electric is planning to move its 115-year-old X-ray division from Waukesha ,Wis. to Beijing.

In addition to moving the headquarters, the company will invest $2 billion in China, train more than 65 engineers, and create six research centers.

This is the same GE that made $5.1 billion in the United States last year, but paid no taxes; the same company that employs more people overseas than it does in the United States .

So let me get this straight. President Obama appointed GE Chairman Jeff Immelt to head his commission on job creation (job czar). Immelt is supposed to help create jobs. I guess the President forgot to tell him in which country he was supposed to be creating those jobs.

Thanks, Jeff, you're a "real" American....give Barrack our Best!

If this doesn't show you the total lack of leadership of this President, I don't know what does.

Please pass this information to others, and think about it before you buy a GE product.

For Snopes verification of this information, go to:

Russell R (87)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 5:27 pm
Great conversation by all, but, we are heading towards our own extinction. We have a Government that votes itself extended credit every few months to stay in business, as if they were going to vote themselves out of the Great Care Packages they gave themselves. We have a two party system, that wants the other party to fail, so nothing ever gets done. We made ourselves the Protectors of the World, which was the purpose of the U.N. of which we were part of, but, stepped out on our own. We forth one war, which wasn't a war with a bunch of kids and now we are fighting wars, not with only our sons, but, with our daughters, mothers and fathers in a part of the world that calls us Infidels, not for the Freedom of People, but for their untouched resources. Remember the war that would pay for itself in a year. Mission Accomplished! The Beginning of the End of a Nation that took on too. much! Wanted too, much! The Clock is running and Time is running out!

Janelle Wong (71)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 6:28 pm
Capitalism Under Fire

When I was growing up, the American Dream was alive and well. America had emerged as the global leader following WWII, the ‘50s brought us television, the space race, and suburbia. The ‘60s largely built on this and Americans thrived. People became wealthier, houses grew ever larger, and we became a nation of consumers. The ‘70s brought an economic eclipse but we emerged in the ‘80s and economic growth blossomed. This trend continued until the housing boom collapsed and created the ensuing financial crisis of the past few years. Now, after 200 years of growth and expansion (interrupted briefly every few decades by correction), a debate has emerged about the benefits of capitalism. Capitalism is under fire.

Capitalism, in our unique version of a free market society, has created the strongest, wealthiest country in the world. This imperfect system has created the greatest superpower ever, but one uniquely dedicated to expansion of peace, democracy, and human rights throughout the world. Without the strength and wealth of America, other regions of the world would not be at peace, those peoples would not be living in relative harmony, and democracy would not be flourishing.

People argue that capitalism has made some people wealthy. Yes. And they argue this is bad. Why? Wealth creation has stimulated innovation that has advanced society beyond our dreams. Yes, it has benefitted some more than others, and some have not benefitted at all. Most have benefitted by the ensuing rising tide of economic expansion and have been able to buy their smart phones, laptops, big screen TVs, cars etc. And most importantly, people have a chance in this society to achieve their dreams. No, it is neither a guarantee nor is this kind of achievement easy. But for the hard working, the talented, the innovative, the risk takers, there is the chance to succeed and achieve.

For sure, the American form of capitalism requires a safety net. Our cycle of job creation and destruction can be jarring, and perhaps even unfair at times. And for those reasons we need a system of support that helps people through transition—systems that include family and community as well as state. After all, nobody wants people on the street or hungry. But we also need to have the incentives for people to go to work, to work hard, and to achieve. Our safety net should not be a system that encourages people to stay home and live off the work of others.

So as we debate our American capitalism versus social democracy or other economic forms, let us acknowledge the issues and address them. But let’s understand clearly the benefits and celebrate its accomplishment. Let’s stand down from the attack on capitalism. Instead, let’s reflect on the great nation that has been created by its successes and the positive impact that this nation has had on the world.

– Steve Odland


Janelle Wong (71)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 8:01 pm
Marksist - One who has fallen for the belief that the system of economic and political thought developed by Karl Marx, along with Friedrich Engels, especially the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society.

Craig Pittman (52)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 8:23 pm

"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somewhow work for the benefit of all." John Maynard Kynes.

Nortel's John Roth earned more than 1,000 nurses as he steered the Company towards virtual collapse.


Janelle Wong (71)
Tuesday July 24, 2012, 8:28 pm
Why is it that psuedo-intellectuals run to the dictionary and thesauras to try and shoot down points which they fully understand but are otherwise unable to counter with their own reasoning?

Peace Monger (185)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 12:55 am
I don't for a minute believe the loss of jobs is due to any one president, but a culmination of business philosophy which have evolved over the years. In fact, I would dare say the corp business plan of today mirrors that of the industrialists of the 1800/1900s.
Sorry, I don't 'buy' into the statement that- "Capitalism, in our unique version of a free market society, has created the strongest, wealthiest country in the world. This imperfect system has created the greatest superpower ever, but one uniquely dedicated to expansion of peace, democracy, and human rights throughout the world. Without the strength and wealth of America, other regions of the world would not be at peace, those peoples would not be living in relative harmony, and democracy would not be flourishing. "/quote
Ask any Native American about that & you'll receive a different answer. But then, perhaps the indigenous peoples don't count? Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, oh dear... the list is a long one where the super power has flexed its muscles. Peace, relative harmony, democracy & human rights? Ha! Chuck the kool-aid away, it's all a cover for profit at the expense of others.

Craig Pittman (52)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 6:15 am
Why is that some folks need to turn debate into personal attacks. Just for the record I am neither an intellectual nor a psudedo-intellectual. I am a blue-collar worker admittedly with very little formal education who can clearly see that capitalism has come off the tracks. It worked while there was tight control and oversight by the government which at one time represented the interests of the average citizen. The income tax I paid helped to support the infrastruture of this country while others were hiding their money off-shore to the tune of trillions of dollars. There is an unacceptable and growing disparity in the distribution of wealth.
This is just one troubling aspect to capitalism as it is now practised but it is the one that to me has caused the tipping point. We need to develop a system that levels the so-called playing field.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 8:44 am
The state tends to expand in proportion to its means of existence and to live beyond its means, and these are, in the last analysis, nothing but the substance of the people. Woe to the people that cannot limit the sphere of action of the state! Freedom, private enterprise, wealth, happiness, independence, personal dignity, all vanish.

- Claude Frederic Bastiat

Paula M (39)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Kit B., I think that Bastiat was talking as much to human nature as to economics. While I would not agree that our basic economic principles have substantially changed last 150 years, I would even more strenuously object to any claim that human nature is different now than it was then. We in fact see examples today of states whose power is unbounded, and the misery of those the citizens they ostensibly serve.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 12:46 pm
The fact remains that this state has expanded in proportion to its means of existence and to live beyond its means and it follows that Woe to the people that cannot limit the sphere of action of the state! Freedom, private enterprise, wealth, happiness, independence, personal dignity, all vanish.

The arguement of the historical context only serves to obscure the applicability of Bastiat's quote to the present.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 3:50 pm
No, that was before Clinton torpedoed Sarbanes Oxley and set the bankers and other financiers to run rampant. Of course Barney Frank didn't help by refusing to tighten up on regulations for Fanny and Freddie.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 4:08 pm
Would you even have the audacity to deny that Clinton is a member of the Bildergerg Group and the New World Order? And are you denying that Clinton torpedoed Sarbanes Oxley? Guess he was fibbing when he said that was a big mistake on his part.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 8:04 pm
You haven't read the New York Times best seller. Perhaps you should broaden you reading horizons.

Janelle Wong (71)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 8:08 pm
There is a world outside of Mother Jones.

pam w (139)
Wednesday July 25, 2012, 9:25 pm
Oh, just CAN it, "JanellePaul." You're so obviously trying to rattle Kit's cage and start an attention-fest for yourself.

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