Sunday July 6, 2008, 2:47 am
Amazing how in "gun states" the use of firearms to commit suicide is so much higher.Is it simply the prevalence of weapons - the availability, or does it say something about the mindset of those locales?

I have never seriously tried to kill myself, but I have contemplated it more times than I can count, especially in the immediate months after my son died. In the end, I have always come to the conclusion that there's more worthwhile living to do, no matter how gray the days and dark the nights.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:24 am
Cate I'm so sorry about your son.
I've never really thought about suicide. I've had times when I felt I couldn't take it anymore and I walk outside, look up and say, kill me somebody please kill me. I've always fought depression with humor.
I was raised with the belief that it's a mortal sin to kill oneself. Of course the thought of having to come back and do it all over again until I get it right is a good one to stop any thought of it also.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:15 am

Being ''civilized'' is an unnatural human condition.
Anyone who does not become depressed is simply not paying attention.

What happens to Humans when they are removed from the Living World :

http://www.themiracleoflife.org/Journeys_Of_Life/Ethiopia/Ethiopia.html

Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:36 am

Murderers want guns so they can shoot you.
This forces innocent people to buy a gun in the MISGUIDED HOPE of defending themselves.

30,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE were killed by guns last year by MURDERERS.
Three of Four family shooting deaths are from GUN ACCIDENTS.

The forth leading cause of TEEN DEATH is suicide.
When guns are available, THEN guns are used to kill INNOCENT PEOPLE.

GOOD people do not attack people. ONLY Bad people will attack GOOD people, to steal the guns out of their pockets.

If I were an ATTACKER, then, no matter how many guns you had in your pockets, they could not protect you from my pocket knife... I would simply wait for an opportunity, walk up to you and take all your guns away from you, uaing my pocket knife as my only weapon.

The vast majority of guns KILL INNOCENT GOOD PEOPLE... they do NOT save.

Proliferating guns is our dictators method of population control.
Buyer Beware.
Your guns will kill you.
.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:06 am
Cate, I am so glad you decided to keep on living! You have alot to give. (((Cate)))

Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:13 am
Unfortunately the link wouldn't work for me (maybe you have to be a member of the NYTimes or using a computer in the USA for it to work?) but I am interested in what the article has to say.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:48 am
Thanks for this article Cate. It speaks the truth about suicides.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:13 am
Spooks, you're the best ((((Spooky))))

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:00 am
The Urge to End It

By SCOTT ANDERSON
Published: July 6, 2008
“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem,” Albert Camus wrote, “and that is suicide.” How to explain why, among the only species capable of pondering its own demise, whose desperate attempts to forestall mortality have spawned both armies and branches of medicine in a perpetual search for the Fountain of Youth, there are those who, by their own hand, would choose death over life? Our contradictory reactions to the act speak to the conflicted hold it has on our imaginations: revulsion mixed with fascination, scorn leavened with pity. It is a cardinal sin — but change the packaging a little, and suicide assumes the guise of heroism or high passion, the stuff of literature and art.

Beyond the philosophical paradox are the bewilderingly complex dynamics of the act itself. While a universal phenomenon, the incidence of suicide varies so immensely across different population groups — among nations and cultures, ages and gender, race and religion — that any overarching theory about its root cause is rendered useless. Even identifying those subgroups that are particularly suicide-prone is of very limited help in addressing the issue. In the United States, for example, both elderly men living in Western states and white male adolescents from divorced families are at elevated risk, but since the overwhelming majority in both these groups never attempt suicide, how can we identify the truly at risk among them?

Then there is the most disheartening aspect of the riddle. The National Institute of Mental Health says that 90 percent of all suicide “completers” display some form of diagnosable mental disorder. But if so, why have advances in the treatment of mental illness had so little effect? In the past 40 years, whole new generations of antidepressant drugs have been developed; crisis hotline centers have been established in most every American city; and yet today the nation’s suicide rate (11 victims per 100,000 inhabitants) is almost precisely what it was in 1965.

Little wonder, then, that most of us have come to regard suicide with an element of resignation, even as a particularly brutal form of social Darwinism: perhaps through luck or medication or family intervention some suicidal individuals can be identified and saved, but in the larger scheme of things, there will always be those driven to take their own lives, and there’s really not much that we can do about it. The sheer numbers would seem to support this idea: in 2005, approximately 32,000 Americans committed suicide, or nearly twice the number of those killed by homicide.

But part of this sense of futility may stem from a peculiar element of myopia in the way we as a society have traditionally viewed and attempted to combat suicide. Just as with homicide, researchers have long recognized a premeditation-versus-passion dichotomy in suicide. There are those who display the classic symptoms of so-called suicidal behavior, who build up to their act over time or who choose methods that require careful planning. And then there are those whose act appears born of an immediate crisis, with little or no forethought involved. Just as with homicide, those in the “passion” category of suicide are much more likely to turn to whatever means are immediately available, those that are easy and quick.

Yet even mental-health experts have tended to regard these very different types of suicide in much the same way. I was struck by this upon meeting with two doctors who are among the most often-cited experts on suicide — and specifically on suicide by jumping. Both readily acknowledged the high degree of impulsivity associated with that method, but also considered that impulsivity as simply another symptom of mental illness. “Of all the hundreds of jumping suicides I’ve looked at,” one told me, “I’ve yet to come across a case where a mentally healthy person was walking across a bridge one day and just went over the side. It just doesn’t happen. There’s almost always the presence of mental illness somewhere.” It seemed to me there was an element of circular logic here: that the act proved the intent that proved the illness.

The bigger problem with this mental-illness rubric is that it puts emphasis on the less-knowable aspect of the act, the psychological “why,” and tends to obscure any examination of the more pedestrian “how,” the basic mechanics involved. But if we want to unravel posthumously the thought processes of the lost with an eye to saving lives in the future, the “how” may be the best place to look.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:08 am
Thank you Juniper R.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:12 am
(((Cate))), thanks for sharing this article. It's exceedingly interesting. Appears that some good studies have taken place, but there is still so much we don't understand.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:13 am
Very interesting story. Noted, thanks Cate

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:24 am

Freedom of choice is what it should be all about...Un-interrupted by anyone, including those considering themselves qualified to intervene...'Your thoughts are different to mine, therefore you are 'mentally ill'?...Surely depression is just another state of mind?...Is happiness a 'mental illness?...Just like euthanasia ought to be freely avalable to all...But then, that is something else...

Oooops what have I said!...On the other hand, if there is a 'Right to Lifer' out there who has died recently and returned...Don't hesitate to send me an email informing me of the consequences of heaven or hell...I may change my stance?...
It's a long story and I'll leave it at that!...Happy days to all!...

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:02 am
Cate thank you for bringing this story to us. Many of us have been touched by sucide.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:14 am
noted, got throu some, I have considered ending my life many do who are ill for a long time, I've been seriously ill since 1991 with little or no support and repeatedly brain damaged in 2003, the damage is continuing, June Callwood, got cancer and refused treatment she was happy to go, some days I wish I would get it and it would be over. I also did while on antidepressants that caused me to go into the black hole of depression I had never experienced before adn others I got severe adverse reactions to, this wasnt mental illness via the DSM it was caused by the drugs thems selves, they cause many people to or acts of violence. I still think of it, for me it's 2 things, feeling powerlessness adn what I endure every day which I am hoping is going to change, and for some time just not wanting to be here anymore and to 'go home' as Idon't consider earth my home, just a temporary time and place and wonder why the heck i chose to come here although there are variations of that, some say you choose to come back over and over, others say you have no choice but to reincarnate. Many people want to end their lives, some is cultural some just don't want to be here any more, some because of terminal illness and has nothing to do with mental health or lack of it, many of them are very sane in their decisions. Where is it holland I think it is legal for assisted suicide (and is it oregon in the US?), many people do it, many people go. As the article states though, the easier the access to it be a quick and ensured end makes the numbers go up (guns, gas stoves), they say this is because it is not giving the person enough time to think it through (or get support), there is another reason, that there will be no 'mistakes' and it will be a done deal. In inda they are burning themsevles alive because of no crops, is this mental illness, I think not, they have been pushed beyond and they honour is involved, the act of it is alarmingly increasing as well, like the Japansese (Seppuku, or Hara-kiri)it is more honorable to take your life in many situations including many during WWII as airplane bombers on suicide missions, we still see today, now they call it terriorism.

I do feel that those that are ending it for reasons of not being able to cope need support and not always DRUGS, and the world is failing miserably at this. When I felt suicidale from antideprssants and too much life stessors I admitted myself, only not to be listened to, given more drugs, misdiagnosed yet again and again, that repeatedly brain damaged me and the damage is still progressing and not on my medical records, talk about depressing, lol, actually I amaze myself that I am stil here and don't give myself enough credit.

Also the attitude towards those who do consider it, and stop the labelling, that is not empowering and that is what people feeling like this need empowerment for those who are depressed and not just to be listened to but heard. even some of those just give up, they have tried for decades to keep going and stop. I am horrified by the excessive use of drugs and the DSM, and the havoc and damage they are doing, I do realize they help many however they are not correcting the problem and it is not a cure and increasingly more evidence coming out of the damage they do and that natural methods of nutrition, amino acids etc, relieve depression there are many studies on this, just from very high doses of omega 3, a japanse one actually, , doctors don't even know the damage the drugs do or don't care, neither do self proclaimed or educated pharmacologists or shrinks. James Rybacki's books are always ahead re prescription drugs and internactions.

I have never tried to taek my life, the act of or trying to commit suicide, however it is on my falsified medical records after the first brain damage they put several along with some other things that are not true---keeps lawyers away - my total brain./body damage is not on my files--------, it came out after the first brain damage from their drugs in 6 days, I still have not been able to get off my records and still at it and getting neuro/medical treatment honest ones, it's a hard go especially the condition or lack of it I am in. From what I have gone through in my life and continue to, many people would or have by now. Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death for people with M.E. (CFIDS( after heart attack adn stroke, and now from the illness itself) For me, if I made that choice I would hope it would from just wanting to go home, and not from suffering and powerlessness, and see nothing wrong with that. I also see nothing wrong with people that have terminal illness that want to end their lives sooner, I am for assisted suicides. I think it is any 'souls' choice to come here or to decide to leave and with no judgement,

I will reiterate again though, that I would not want this to be from lack of support and coping skills.
love to you Cate,

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:35 am
Extreme physical pain wears down one's mental state...and vice versa. Good health..having the basics in life ( food, adequate shelter,non violent enviroment) and the majority of us can handle the hits in life. When the extremes occur it hits us differently just as the individuals we are..I've always hated the line' you're never given more than you can handle...BS..if the pain is severe enough you can wish your heart would stop and end the pain but the thought doesn't make it happen...we just want the pain to go away...If you take a physical beating the pain may subside but the mental thoughts of the incident never are erased...Don't cause pain you wouldn't want to feel...and try to remember that we don't choose to have heart problems,cancer and other medical conditions anymore than someone chooses to have a mental disorder...unfortunately it's just socially acceptable to have a physical condition...

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:59 am
I always felt for the ones who went through with suicide. I could never imagine what could be so horrible that they felt no other way out. I too have wanted to die sometimes, just knew there was a better way and a new day around the corner. Bless those that could not see the light. Interesting article, as always Cate!

Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:18 am
Thanks Cate! You've really got 'em going...Good one Laurie...'Socially acceptable'?...Yep Zep! it IS indeed a strange world we live in...Suicide has been 'de-criminalised' in Australia and therefore must be socially acceptable???..I'm not sure what the penalty was..(True)...Euthanasia, by far my chosen humane method of suicide, is still murder. :)

Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:52 am
Hugs to you, (((Cate))).
Noted.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:06 am
I always thought it was either absurd or hilarious that someone taking their life was a crime, against whom? Well the state that collects taxes. Of course those left behind are deeply greiving and hurting especially if they don't know why, much guilt buids up. What has made me very angry is when someone has taken their life and others get angry that they did it in their home, as to having no empathy whatsoever why one would, I have seen this and I have seen people who have taken their lives or tried. As mentioned prior on another of your submissions, that those that choose to leave the planet by dementia or altimzers so it is easier for them, however, not easy for those around them. As for not choosing illnesses, conciously NO for most in some cases YES, but unciously or even a reason before you were born that you made the decision for your life growth or someone elses. there are so many teachings on this now it has gotten confusing from karma to abraham-hicks, they both tell different stories. It is up to you what reality you want to and are able to create, this too often requires support.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:31 am

Extremely interesting, Cate.

I can't get out of my mind the man who was intent on jumping from the opposite side of the bridge, but who was afraid that, if he crossed through the traffic, he may get hit by a car. I'll be mulling that one over for some time.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:49 am
God bless your soul, Sunshine Ray. I feel the same way as you do about choice.

This may sound heartless to some...but I feel that if I want to end it...if I'm tired of this life, it's my right as an individual to choose to leave...or die, or 'go home' however you view it.

I wouldn't deliberately kill myself, though because I think it's giving up. And I like to think of myself as 'connected to my source'. I intend to fulfill any karmic obligation with a smile...and maybe an expletive or two. ;)

But what do you think that disease is? It's a natural form of suicide. Nothing wants to be here forever! Life is a learning experience. I will not let society OR religious laws dictate whether I linger for years unable to see, walk, talk or interact...or leave of my own accord. It's MY body. I can cause it to function, or I can cause it to die. But we all can take it up again, because life IS eternal. And what we are doing here is just fun and games. *snicker*

To me, real freedom is to think for myself and live in a manner that gives some kind of satisfaction. Just let me do what I want, to me...as long as it doesn't involve harming anyone else. For God's sake, governments, religions and civilizations have too much control already! Pretty soon, being fat will be against the law! Deemed unhealthy by the 'powers that be'. For your own good...we will be restricting your diet to bananas...because everything else is unhealthy for you, and we want you to be alive and healthy for enough 'slave years' to pay our salaries and enrich our corporations...after that...when you're old and collecting retirement, get lost. What you don't use will go to the soldier who makes it out alive from those wars of terrorism.

Federal decisions? Personal decisions? Which do you want?

Who made suicide a sin? Who makes suicide illegal? A bunch of government flunkies reading petitions from short-sighted, barely thinking do-gooders.
(Relax, I'm talkin' bout myself.)

Give me liberty or give me death...Mel has the right to do whatever Mel wants to do with Mel!

The body is just a weight holding the soul down to the Earth...and you thought it was gravity. *big smile*

Love & Peace

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:05 am
((((Sunshine, Jennifer, Dolores))))

I am not sure I would care to live if I had a debilitating or extremely painful illness. When I was so sick for 8-9 weeks with what turned out to be a reaction to Zetia, I often thought about what it would be like to feel like that every day for the rest of my life. This increased my admiration for the chronically and/or terminally ill, coping and carrying on, and also increased my undestanding of why someone would choose death over a living hell.

Of course emotional pain can do the same thing. As I said earlier, there were many days following my son's death when I saw no reason to be breathing.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:38 am
our attachments and love of those close to us often cause severely deep grief. For some less so, some depending on how they were brought up and to view death, others from religion or sprituality, hare krsna there is no greiving, as the soul never dies. I have grieved tremdously over the loss of many friends, all my best friends and more. I grieve for my-self, and am allowing myself to more now in a healing way instead of what I was doing or not doing. I too have lost a son, I didn't have the years with him you did Cate and I have rarely ever mentioned it to anyone prior. Even at that early and age, it is still a great loss I feel often inside and am often surprised that it still pops up. I wonder how he would look now, have kids or not. Same with friends that have passed on, even my cat of 21 years, the greif still pops up here and there. I would like to be in a place of not having no compassion, but totally in self realization that we are still alive and are not dead, because nobody is. They are in another dimension and we will be there in no time flat. As for illness and the brain/body damaghe, yeah it's been hell, I am still working on changing that and finding it profoundly difficult with my thinking/thoughts, and lack of support and proper care to heal from others.
I'm off for a rest, and been off c2 for the most part to concentrate on my needs, today was a much needed detour. they say time heals all wounds, this is not true, it depends on the person, some do, some don't, no matter what level you are talking about, physcially, emotionally, spiritually, mentally.
(((Cate)))

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:43 am
correction to above: I WOULDN'T like to be in a place of not having no compassion, but totally in self realization that we are still alive and are not dead, because nobody is.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:45 am

Of course, I've been thinking this all over since I first read it. As has been pointed out here, I think most people have considered suicide at some time in their lives when existing with the certainty of emotional and/or physical pain seemed a worse option than ending it all.

I'm not sure if any of you have had the experience of losing a loved one to suicide. I have. There is much collateral damage to those who must spend the rest of their own lives with guilt and self-questioning about what they might have been able to do "if only."

Sunday July 6, 2008, 12:04 pm
Not only that, Carole, but people who throw themselves in front of cars or trains or otherwise involve innocent third-parties leave, I am sure, a lasting sense of guilt and grief in that other person...and this is not a fair thing to do. If one must end it, it seems that keeping it to oneself alone is the most "ethical" way to do it.