Tuesday January 22, 2008, 12:34 pm
noted
Thnx Serge!

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 12:38 pm
noted birth control

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 1:09 pm
Heres some more interesting facts about the worlds population:

1- Only half of mankind lives in cities and towns
2- one sixth of the worlds population is in southern India-east coast-bangladesh
3-one out of three people on planet suffer from scarcity of water
4- Somebody dies every 3.8 seconds from starvation, 75% of those are children
5- Agriculture uses 65-70% of the Earths/global water supply
6- 1.6 billion people live with no electicity in the world

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 1:11 pm
Forty percent of the world's population derives at least half of their drinking water from snowmelt from mountain glaciers.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 1:20 pm
I don't have kids. 2 dogs; both rescue. Thanks Serge!

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 1:48 pm
Noted!

In addition to over consumption, population growth is probably the largest factor with regards to today's environmental problems. Just think what will happen when China and India's populations consume as the Americans and Europeans do today. We will literally need the resources of five earth's just to keep up with today's western style consumption patterns if today's world population consume the same way as westerners. There will be nothing left to pillage of earth's resources when we reach 9 billion unless something dramatic changes in consumption, recycling, energy use and so forth.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:00 pm
The population in my country is estimated to decrease by 2050 from 22 millions to about 16....

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:03 pm
Nadia, I, too, am childless, and I'm grateful
to be for a number of reason, this being one
of them.
Nine billion people within 42 years....wow.

Serge, your post above reminded me
of something else:

1) One person out of six (in the world) is Indian.
2) One person out of six is Muslim.
3) One person out of six is Chinese.

I believe the U.S. represents 5% of the
world's population, so why does the Fed.Govt.
think it can literally rule the world?
But then, most if not all "leaders" and their
governments who had dreams of global domination
were psychotic people to begin with.
Thank you, Serge!
noted.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:05 pm
Noted with thanks, Serge.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:10 pm
The starvations stats really bug me because we all know it is so unnecessary!

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:33 pm
The world is changing like never before

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 2:47 pm
ALL People NEED to be Spayed and Neutered! Immediately.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 3:09 pm
Tim- Thx for the Stats.! Also its interesting that its always the "smaller" countries who have been the most sucessful as of late( France, germany) in trying to rule the world, lets hope the China's and india's of the world don't try to rule the world , they might just do it as quick as they are expanding, etc.
Cate- That stat bugs me the most too, why should our children die like that because of the worlds greed. Starvation is a horrible way to die.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 3:39 pm
If everyone became spiritually aware, we could support ten times the present population. That would mean no more cars or burning anything for fuel. It would mean no more slaughtering anything, no more intoxication, no more prostitution and no more gambling. The usual answer I hear when I raise these points is, "But this is how it's always been." The forty-five billion animals per year going on breakfast, lunch and dinner tables guarantees all kinds or war and distress in the human population no matter how big or small it is.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 4:09 pm
Thanx Serge.... another great story from you :)....will cross post ...smile

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 4:39 pm
I am currently reading an excellent book by Michael Ruppert that was printed in 2004, and is still available for sale at Amazon.com, and your Public Library may have a copy of this remarkable book.

Titled: Crossing *The* Rubicon
The Decline of the American Empire At The End of The Oil Age.

The book explains in complete detail about the wars from WW I through the current wars in Afghanistan, and Iraq. War as a means of population reduciton. The connections with the CIA and Drug Lords, US banks that launder money gained from the drug trade, and importance of the drug trade to our present economy, and how Wall Stree benefits from drug money.

Thank you posting this story Sege..

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 4:59 pm
5 or 6 percent of the population is burning up over half of the available natural resources. If the rest of the world could live the "American Dream" we'd use up the whole planet in a matter of a few months or weeks. I see a stark contrast between business as usual and the communal life I lead in an organization dedicated to spiritual goals and a set of values directed toward accommodating ten times the present world population. In order to live the "American Dream" you don't have to be asleep but you better be really good at pretending to be asleep.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 5:10 pm
I agree with Nancy-- these people need to be educated in these matters. Although, culture and religion do factor into this problem.
Noted, and thanks for posting Serge.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 5:54 pm
Sarvo makes some great points, we could all use more spiritualism in our lives. Especially in these strange times, i believe we have gotten so far away from ourselves, life should not be so complicated. I love my country, but it is not the country it was. The "American Dream" has turned into a nightmare to a certain extent. Capitalism is spreading like a disease that threatens to enslave all of mankind. I don't mean to sound to fatalistic, for i have great hope for us all.........Thx for the great comments from all.

You've gotta have hope. Without hope life is meaningless. Without hope life is meaning less and less. ~Author Unknown

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 6:29 pm
China already has in place birth control and has for decades. One child per family and any "extra", the couple is severely punished. The couples opts to have a son to carry the family name, property, etc. Now, Chinese men cannot find wives as there are not enough women to go around because of the opting out preferences.

The populations of the world continues to increase and food is fast becoming scarce. The oceans are on the verge of depletions of certain species of fish.

Least we forget that "bush" effectively put a "gag rule" on birth control all over the world.

Do you think it is time for eugenics... There are a few articles on eugenics in here. Use search engine to find a few of them.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 6:40 pm
Thank you for this article.

Tuesday January 22, 2008, 11:58 pm
Noted. Passing along. Lots of people use "having babies" as a form of revenue at the expense of hard-working folks who have to support them. I adore rabbits in the Wild; LOL, but not humans who scheme to procreate in order to collect more dough. There have to be limits; but I am not the Creator; just observing the facts of what's going on in "the System."

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 2:22 am
Thanks Serge, noted of course. Did anybody see the show on the history channel the onther night? "Life after People". I think it might end up being a true story... Comes on again tonight
Life After People

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 3:19 am
noted,.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 3:39 am
Compulsory Contraceptive is the answer, especially in the Muslim countries and manydeveloping nations.
W H O. IMF and the Developed nations should not provide any help to those countries who do not implement one child norm as china is doing now, though belated. India is on the verge of overtaking China in Population.
Countries like India Bangladesh, Indinesia, Pakistan and many African Nations need to be brought under compulsory Vasectomy, Copper T and all such measures that prevents conception. Otherwise humanbeings will in these counries like worms in future

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 3:47 am
Compulsory contraceptives like and other methods likevasectomy and Tubectomy are the only answer to the overflowing human population especially in Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan Indonesia, Nirth African nations. India too is bursting in its seems with overpopulation on the vege of overtaking China. The only solution is for WHO IMF and the developing nations to stop all aid these countries. Then automatically God will stop giving them child. Otherwise humanity will become like worms overflowing into the seas

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 6:13 am
Thank you Serge, and noted. I have 1 child and have had MANY ~~~~all of them SO special in their way~~~rescue cats, and one unbelievably wonderful dog. Thanks for the reminder, Michael.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 8:52 am
Humans are way out of balance. Part of the world are battling over weight problems and thrive off of weight loss programs, while other parts of the world are starving and can't even have a fresh glass of water.
Parts of the world are using up resources to save lives from cancer, stroks, diebetes..etc, (elderly use up all their savings just to stay alilve), while other parts of the world die from starving, wars, many other elements,(millions are children and young adults), they don't have access to contraceptives.. I could see a pretty clear picture why we are over populated. Each year these numbers multiply XXXXX as resources subract - - - . Makes since to me.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 5:26 pm
First, for the first time ever this planet has a successful species. It has killed it's predators, has a stable food supply, and is multiplying out of control.

What can we do? First, live within our means - our energy means. I try to live on less than eight ounces of meat a month. When I can afford it I will buy an electric car. Second, solar electricity is now free - there is a company that installs solar panels, sells the electricity back to the utility and also to the owner, and makes money. Third, coal is obsolte - Nanosolar in Califonia is now selling solar cells for a dollar a watt, coal costs two dollars a watt. I have no children and plan no having one child.

I suppose a good incentive to stop people from using drugs is to remind them it stops the government from making money. If you use illegal drugs, you support the war in Iraq as you're financing the Republican goons.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 5:46 pm

I have seven children, bio and adoped. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a large family if you choose adoption and are physically,emotionally and financially capable of giving then a good home. There is a difference between being childless and reproducing. Three of my adopted children came from a woman who had given birth to six. All were taken away and she is childless. My husband and I had one bio child, yet we have seven.

Of those seven, so far, two have opted not to reproduce, three have each chosen to have one child only. I do not know what the last two will choose. I hope they will consider adoption. There are a lot of children available that would love having a parent or two and a permanent place to call home.

Thank you for posting this and giving me a chance to spout off about the need for adoptive homes.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 5:51 pm
Marian - We could use a few more like you. The world would be a better place to live. In fact if people could be less selfish and be willing to help others in the way you obviously are, then we could support ten times the present population. Sixty billion people voluntarily helping each other and willingly sharing the amazing abundance naturally provided by higher divine arrangement, sure would be a big improvement over today's world of greed and envy.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 6:03 pm
china's 1 child rule is mainly in cities, the rural areas don't follow rule.
BIRTH CONTROL is the answer. what if you lived in rural africa and there was no birth control, how many children would you have.
after visiting argentina for a month without a car (i could live there and not need a car!), i came back angry at gov't, oil, and auto makers. it is not my fault i drive everywhere. there is little local mass transit in towns or cities or long distance in the u.s.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 6:28 pm
If we give up on the possibility of SELF CONTROL, we give up our power to government. Until the men learn about proper management of ojas shakti we can expect these kinds of misunderstandings and nightmarish results to increase more and more.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:09 pm
"ALL People NEED to be Spayed and Neutered! Immediately." Victoria, keep your fascist ideas to yourself, thanks.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:11 pm
Serge, if China and India try to rule the world, at least that will be more fair, since they represent a much greater % of the world's population than the U.S.A. does.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:14 pm
Hey Sarvo, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote : ) I am happy to see someone (you) approaching humanity and our problems with compassion instead of impatient, fascistic eugenics, "blame the poor people" solutions.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:29 pm
Wow! Simon, I am so pleasantly surprised. I always feel like I'm just talking into the wind when I raise these points. Most people have been pretty well indoctrinated into being self-defeating pawns in the hands of the power brokers who do not have our best interests at heart and laugh all the way to their banks as they play us all off against one another. They only really need about one billion slaves and so feel that about five billion are presently expendable. It's major crunch time here on planet earth. I'm glad to see you're part of the solution.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:34 pm
Hey Sarvo, I aim to be part of the solution, but I think I am not as diplomatic as you are. ; )

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:35 pm
Hey Raja, keep your fascist ideas to yourself, thanks. We had more than enough fascism and eugenics in the 1920s-1940s (and 1950s when the U.S. government oppressed the people of Puerto Rico with racist coerced sterilization programs). The suffering that is caused is horrendous.

(By the way, if we were going to reduce population, then the appropriate people to focus on are those who do the most environmental destruction - the richest people for a start, and then all of the people in the first world and the middle class in the Third World. However, any population growth reduction must NOT be coerced, it must respect human rights, by giving rewards instead of forced sterilization or coercion by threatening punishments for non-compliance.)

I expect you people who have internet access to know better than this fascist eugenics Malthusian rubbish. How about you actually use the internet to learn something, instead of to call for oppression against the poor people of the Third World?

I suggest you start by learning how the Malthusian ideas that you base your proposals on were disproven DECADES AGO. I learnt about this back in highschool in the early 1990s, for goodness sakes!

I also recommend that you read "12 Myths of World Hunger", and the magazine "New Internationalist", to learn the real causes of population growth and population decline, as well as the real causes of poverty.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:40 pm
Jim Phillips, you wrote: "Do you think it is time for eugenics... There are a few articles on eugenics in here. Use search engine to find a few of them."

Eugenics? Keep your fascist ideas to yourself, Jim.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:50 pm
I chose to be child FREE for a number of reasons, but the main reason was I wanted FREEDOM. They always used the term "childless" like it was a downfall on your part if you didn't have a child, you were a traitor! I got so tired of hearing in my younger days, "When are you getting married and having children?", like something was wrong with me because I was single and enjoying my life!. Dear Abby did a survery years ago and the question was, Would you have children again if you knew then what you know now? 87% said NO! Society need to stop insisting that everyone is put here to have children. That's an old habit we have to break. My husband comes from a large family, from his two parents there are over 70 people now and they are all having kids. Where will their food and water come from? We don't have a clue to what climate change is really going to bring us. I'm probably low on the spiritual evolution plane, but I don't envision anything changing for the better soon enough to help all those who are here now, let alone another 53.5Billion! That would take a huge quantuum leap by humanity, to a level my pea brain can't fathom! Possibly, climate change may be the catalyst for those who survive to get to a level of spiritualness as Sarvo describes, it is the only good I can make from what I envision coming for our Earth, and all inhabitants. Also, this isn't a slam to all people wanting children, for many it's life's purpose. But I'm with Serge, this is a vastly changed world from the one we are remembering. No one who wants children would ever want them to suffer, but 20,0000 starve to death every DAY. How many are thrown away every day, by parents who didn't know they really didn't want children, because they were told their whole lives that they did? Until every child has love, food, water, shelter, and personal responsiblity instilled in his/her life, there will always be those that are born to suffer, or those angry enough about their childhood to cause others to suffer as they had. Noted, thanks Serge.

Wednesday January 23, 2008, 11:50 pm
Hey Tassa Rose, why do you blame the poor for trying to survive, instead of criticising the system that denies people the opportunity to get a decent income by means that you would approve of, like decent jobs and affordable childcare?

And even more telling is this fact: you criticise the poor, who cause less environmental destruction and consumption of resources than the rich do, and you do not criticise the rich, who engage in exploitation of others on a scale hundreds, thousands, and sometimes millions of times that of the exploitation that poor people engage in. So, a single mother who can't get a job to support herself and her child, applies and gets maybe $300 per week welfare for a few months. What about shareholders who exploit workers, to get $300,000 per week for the rest of their lives? How about some sense of perspective here?

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:00 am
Right on Simon! Bravo! ! ! Tell it like it is brother.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:16 am
Simon- Point taken- Hopefully we will never have to find out.
Sandra-very interesting input, it may very well be a "habit" we need to break, I feel a little better, being childless myself, after reading that , THx!

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:19 am
Hi Sandra, I mostly agree with what you said. Indeed, i don't want to have children myself, just like you.

However, I want to emphasise that there are alot of assumptions in this thread about why people have children.

Why do people actually have children in the Third World? One of the main reasons is economic factors. People have children BECAUSE they are poor, and also because there is no welfare system. Why? In many Third World countries, children look after their parents when they are older. In fact, in alot of Third World countries, it is only sons who look after their parents when they are older. Therefore, people will naturally want to have enough children to ensure that they have a son. Furthermore, in many Third World countries, many children (and some adults) die - from starvation, malnutrition, disease, wars, and so on. Therefore, people must have even more children to ensure that some survive to care for their parents when the parents grow old.

There are other understandable motivations for having more children too. One is the fact that having more children increases a family's chances of getting out of poverty. Some (probably the daughters) will marry and move to live with another family. Some children can stay on the farm, etc., and work on it - this need for labour to ensure the family's survival is one factor. And if parents have more children, some might succeed in school and a career, and maybe get a decent job (as a doctor or something) to help their family.

These people only want to survive the unpredictabilities of life in the Third World, and maybe have some children that help their family get out of poverty and achieve a better standard of living - though probably then they will still have a worse standard of living than we do.

To expect them to settle for less than that is pure hypocrisy.

I suggest that you all read about this issue - by reading "12 Myths of World Hunger", and the magazine "New Internationalist", or if you have the chance, visit and talk with lots of poor families in the Third World. Then you will understand the real reasons that people keep increasing their populations in the Third World. And you will therefore know the real problems that we must address if we are genuine about ending population growth.

Looking at the reality, we can see that part of the solution is welfare for old people. Another part of the solution is disease prevention, and peace, to allow more children and adults to survive, so that people don't need to have plenty of children to ensure that they win the "life and death gamble" of Third World survival. Another part of the solution is economic development, to ensure that people will have better standards of living even if they don't have lots of children.

There are other things we can do, too. One is to empower women in the Third World more. Lack of power and opportunity for women is a factor that increases number of children that women bear, while increased power and opportunity for women decreases the number of children women bear.

Another factor is education - which is linked to economic prosperity and women's empowerment.

Contraception is great (especially condoms to prevent STDs), but in Third World countries people generally have about as many children as they want, whether there is modern contraception or not (there are traditional methods of contraception, such as herbal medicines, the rhythm method, and sexual behaviour that does not involve coitus - e.g. oral sex and manual stimulation, in case you didn't know).

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:23 am
Yeah, Serge, you are childless, too? : )

We are the childless club : P

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:27 am
Good on you for living like that Daniel! : )

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:32 am
"there is...sexual behaviour that does not involve coitus - e.g. oral sex and manual stimulation, in case you didn't know..." Did I sound like a smart-ass? : P heheheheh!

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:38 am
Hey, Marian, I totally agree with what you wrote (I mean, I don't have seven children, but if I have children I would either adopt all or most of them).

"I have seven children, bio and adoped. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a large family if you choose adoption and are physically,emotionally and financially capable of giving then a good home. There is a difference between being childless and reproducing. Three of my adopted children came from a woman who had given birth to six. All were taken away and she is childless. My husband and I had one bio child, yet we have seven.

Of those seven, so far, two have opted not to reproduce, three have each chosen to have one child only. I do not know what the last two will choose. I hope they will consider adoption. There are a lot of children available that would love having a parent or two and a permanent place to call home.

Thank you for posting this and giving me a chance to spout off about the need for adoptive homes."

Good on you for your compassion, Marian, and good on you for promoting adoption, for all those children who ALREADY EXIST. : )

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:38 am
Hey, Marian, I totally agree with what you wrote (I mean, I don't have seven children, but if I have children I would either adopt all or most of them).

"I have seven children, bio and adoped. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a large family if you choose adoption and are physically,emotionally and financially capable of giving then a good home. There is a difference between being childless and reproducing. Three of my adopted children came from a woman who had given birth to six. All were taken away and she is childless. My husband and I had one bio child, yet we have seven.

Of those seven, so far, two have opted not to reproduce, three have each chosen to have one child only. I do not know what the last two will choose. I hope they will consider adoption. There are a lot of children available that would love having a parent or two and a permanent place to call home.

Thank you for posting this and giving me a chance to spout off about the need for adoptive homes."

Good on you for your compassion, Marian, and good on you for promoting adoption, for all those children who ALREADY EXIST. : )

Thursday January 24, 2008, 1:02 am
...and then there's always self control, seminal continence and proper management of ojas shakti. No one wants to hear about it. It was, however, part of the received wisdom of the Vedic standard before western influence gained global dominance. The holy teachers and saints and sages of India still know about it but really feel that in trying to inform anyone else on the planet about it, they're fighting a losing battle .

Thursday January 24, 2008, 1:17 am
Hey Serge and Simon and Sarvo, thanks for the comments. I agree with you Simon on the reasons why Third World/poverty stricken people have "more" children. Those reasonings were true here also in our history, and surely are still true today for our country's poor. The "habit" comes both from our natural instinct to want a child, and the subliminal message drilled in you constantlly by the government and media that you must. You need consumers to buy, buy, buy, whatever it is they are selling! Our country spoonfeeds the general population The American Dream on most every T.V. show and commercial. No one works, goes to school, they all drive a Mercedes and every problem is solved in a half hour! Boy, what a dream that is. Reality is so much harsher, it's a shock to many to discover what is is. Once you've had a child, you're focus is (supposed to be) on said child, and you will be so busy surviving you won't have any time to question the Granada's, the Vietnam's, the 9/11's and anything else the government has planned for us. They are assured a workforce, and as Sarvo said, they only need a billion slaves, so the other 5 billion will be killed by vaccines, food and chemical toxins, and whatever, so they can make money on your death process also. I believe that a lot of the campaign against gays is because they are a big threat to the government's control. Gay citizens are well educated and (in general) child free, which means they have more time to get even smarter and question what the hell is going on than the unsuspecting, brainwashed masses!
I'm glad to be in the childless club! No regrets! And if I had changed my mind, I could just go save a child, there are millions who need a parent! I never needed a clone of myself! Part of my reasoning was that at a young age I saw I would be compelled to give my child all the "bad" stuff I got from my parents, and I just could not allow that to happen(it would have, no doubt). Also, I'm "selfish" enough to know I just didn't want to spend my life being responsible for anyone else, I can barely take care of myself :). I was never "maternal" and am glad I was true to myself, because I enjoyed my life when I was young and could have fun. The Golden Years, well, I don't think I would be in a disco at 4;30 a.m. in Hong Kong when I am 64, but I had a blast when I was there at 28!
This is also the first time since I've been on here to actually participate in an ongoing comment session, very exciting! Except it's taken so long to type this it's 2a.m. and I must sign off! Thanks to all, I'll look tomorrow to see what more I might miss tonight! Peace out!!

Thursday January 24, 2008, 1:37 am
Sandra, I agree. Sorry you've got to hit the hay. This is one of the most exciting, dynamic threads I've seen in a long time and I think we have mostly Simon to thank for that. God Bless You. You people are all amazing. Proving to me once again that the last best chance for mother earth is somehow assembling right here in Care2.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 2:12 am
Me? Thanks Sarvo : ) I imagine there might be some annoyed responses from some people at what I wrote tomorrow. : P

Some of us do know about that tantric sex, or whatever you like to call it - alot of the fame of it in first world countries is due to Sting, I reckon. He is famous for being into tantric sex. : ) I haven't tried it myself, though I am interested to try it when I get with another girlfriend. Do please promote it if you reckon it's good, eh, Sarvo? I've heard "once you go tantric, you never go back" ; )

Thursday January 24, 2008, 2:17 am
See you Sandra : )

I wonder about something, though... if you reckon vaccines are harmful, then what do you suggest we do to stop certain diseases that kill millions of people in the Third World, such as measles? (I know water-borne diseases can be prevented by ensuring clean drinking water - but what about the others?) Also, please give us some more information (or references or something) about why you reckon vaccines are harmful?

Thursday January 24, 2008, 2:29 am
As productivity growth outpaces population growth, fertility may decline. Typically this is an economic argument. I believe that the underlying argument is about energy, and the quality of energy.

Agriculture, medicine, health can all be viewed in terms of energy. In fact, even something like agriculture could be viewed as having three components: Biomass Agriculture, Coal Agriculture and Oil and Gas Agriculture.

Nitrogen prices have risen 25% since late May, says Agriliance, with soaring natural gas prices taking their toll on this essential farm input.

How much of the success of the Green Revolution can be claimed by science, and how much by cheap fossil fuels? Cheap fuel supplies water pumps, processing plants and field machines. It is a low cost raw material for fertilisers, pesticides and herbicides. Agriculture is the single largest user of fossil fuels in the U.S.

“All the evidence suggests that we have consistently exaggerated the contributions of technological genius and underestimated the contributions of natural resources.”

“Industrialisation came about at a fast enough pace so that it enlarged per capita wealth and was not entirely devoted to enlarging population. In principle, any increase in carrying capacity-temporary or permanent-affords a choice between enabling a larger number of individuals to live at previous standards. When the enlargement of carrying capacity is modest and is spread over many generations, it tends to be used mainly to increase numbers; if it is enormous and comes so suddenly that human numbers just don’t rise at the same pace, it raises living standards. The European takeover of the New World had enlarged carrying capacity (for Europeans) just fast enough to begin having this salutary effect. By drawing down stores of exhaustible resources at an ever-quickening pace, industrialization (temporarily) augmented carrying capacity even faster, affording opportunity for quite a marked rise in prosperity and for a phenomenal acceleration of population increase. The welcome rise in prosperity reinforced the dangerous myth of limitlessness and obscured for a while the hazards inherent in the population increase.”

AIDS – not as a phenomenon unrelated to energy, that decreases population. But absolutely related to energy. In America where per capita energy consumption is very high, there is enough energy to fight the disease to stop its lethal effects. In Africa, they do not have the energy to fight the disease, that is the energy to develop, produce and distribute the drugs and medicines that would mitigate many of the disastrous effects. Per captia energy consumption is very low. (See Hackett-Fisher’s The Great Wave). So Africa’s potential reduction in population growth may be directly related to the world’s reduced ability to provide the necessary energy sources. In fact Africa does have substantial energy resources but the large majority of these resources are exported to the energy hungry, wealthy nations of the developed world.

Migration may be viewed in terms of energy. Populations migrate from energy poor regions to energy rich regions, either energy producers (the Middle East) or consumers (Europe, North America).
The Baby Boom might be partially explained by the large growth in oil consumption after World War II. (Whether the oil enabled the boom, or the boom fuelled the production of oil doesn’t really matter. It couldn’t have happened without large energy inputs.) It may be that populations grow quickly when first encountering a new energy source and then slow afterwards as productivity gains permeate society and improve education, health, etc. England’s fastest population growth ever was in 1826 just as Wrigley’s Advanced Organic Economy was being supplanted by his Mineral-Based Energy Economy. America’s fastest population growth after frontiers were fixed occurred in 1909, shortly after oil discoveries first in Pennsylvania (1859) and then Texas (1887).

http://dieoff.org/page199.htm

Thursday January 24, 2008, 5:47 am
OK Wayne... Very impressive post. ...And your point is?

Thursday January 24, 2008, 9:42 am
Simon- Thx for the detailed info. on the many reasons more people have children in the THIRD world! I needed to hear them to get a better perspective on the Population surge. I had forgotten some of it since it has been 22 years since i was last in India. The only way to really understand it is to see it firsthand. I will pick up the "12 myths of world hunger" and check it out. I wish i had not gone to bed so early last night and was able to participate with you all more last night. Like Sarvo said a very dynamic and informative thread. I like to thank you all for the commentary again.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 10:28 am
Sandra- Thx again for the info. and your great perspective on population in the first world. I love your attitude, very refreshing! I don't think I'll be in that disco in Hong Kong either when I'm 64, lol.
It's hard for me to stay in this country these days with all fallout of the "american Dream" , my head says go but my heart says stay and fight, hence i remain here. It seems that alot of folks are finally getting stirred up a bit here, maybe more people will start to THINK and realize what is occuring in the "good ole US of A" . This Global warming thing may help to unite the world. A spiritual awakening is what is needed like Sarvo says! I know i struggle everyday unfortunately for total self -control and alot of the times its a losing battle because of all the media , bad food, etc. i have let myself be exposed to. It is hard for me to stay awake
and be part of the solution at times but i am working on it and believe i will rise out of my "SELF". For now its great to spread the word here on Care2 and learn things that we have all forgotten to a degree and learn things i have never known. Its like what Sarvo said: "You people are all amazing. Proving to me once again that the last best chance for mother earth is somehow assembling right here in Care2.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:02 pm
Simon-

"Jim Phillips, you wrote: "Do you think it is time for eugenics... There are a few articles on eugenics in here. Use search engine to find a few of them."

"Eugenics? Keep your fascist ideas to yourself, Jim."

Simon, I left that open as an invitation for debate...

me as a "fascist"... hahaha... First time I've ever been called that. Thank you.
Always a first time for everything...

USA government has already done "eugenics" on its own citizens in US.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:14 pm
Wayne- thx for the input, I did not realize that "Agriculture is the single largest user of fossil fuels in the U.S." Everyone in the US should know that i believe, considering the energy crisis we are in.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 12:34 pm
Sarvo, it all comes down to greed, power and money that is killing our world. Oil should be left alone where it meant to be. There are many forms of oil that is causing huge problems to our health, food, environment and the deterioration of our world's ocean ecosystems.

There are safer ways to keep our economic structure going without the use of oil such as natural hemp. Natural hemp industrialization can reverse and improve in such a big way to our DEPLETING PLANET.

Hemp is very much a danger to the oil companies, alcohol, tobacco industries and a large number of chemical corporations. Various big businesses, with plenty of dollars and influence, have suppressed the truth from the people.

The truth is if hemp was utilized for its vast array of commercial products, it would create an industrial atomic bomb! Entrepreneurs have not been educated on the product potential of hemp. The super rich have conspired to spread misinformation about an extremely versatile plant that, if used properly, would ruin their companies.

Hemp cultivation and production do not harm the environment.

For thousands of years, 90% of all ships' sails and rope were made from hemp.

80% of all textiles, fabrics, clothes, linen, drapes, bed sheets, etc. were made from hemp until the 1820s with the introduction of the cotton gin.

The first Bibles, maps, charts, Betsy Ross's flag, the first drafts of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were made from hemp

Oldest known records of hemp farming go back 5000 years in China, although hemp industrialization probably goes back to ancient Egypt.

In 1916, the U.S. Government predicted that by the 1940s all paper would come from hemp and that no more trees need to be cut down. Government studies report that 1 acre of hemp equals 4.1 acres of trees. Plans were in the works to implement such programs; Department of Agriculture

Henry Ford's first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONSTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, 'grown from the soil,' had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel; Popular Mechanics, 1941.

'It has a short growing season...It can be grown in any state...The long roots penetrate and break the soil to leave it in perfect condition for the next year's crop. The dense shock of leaves, 8 to 12 feet above the ground, chokes out weeds.
...hemp, this new crop can add immeasurably to American agriculture and industry.'

In the 1930s, innovations in farm machinery would have caused an industrial revolution when applied to hemp. This single resource could have created millions of new jobs generating thousands of quality products. Hemp, if not made illegal, would have brought America out of the Great Depression.

In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont's Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont's business.

Today, our planet is in desperate trouble. Earth is suffocating as large tracts of rain forests disappear. Pollution, poisons and chemicals are killing people. These great problems could be reversed if we industrialized hemp. Natural biomass could provide all of the planet's energy needs that are currently supplied by fossil fuels. We have consumed 80% of our oil and gas reserves. We need a renewable resource. Hemp could be the solution to soaring gas prices.

Hemp has a higher quality fiber than wood fiber. Far fewer caustic chemicals are required to make paper from hemp than from trees. Hemp paper does not turn yellow and is very durable. The plant grows quickly to maturity in a season where trees take a lifetime.

ALL PLASTIC PRODUCTS SHOULD BE MADE FROM HEMP SEED OIL. Hempen plastics are biodegradable! Over time, they would break down and not harm the environment. Oil-based plastics, the ones we are very familiar with, help ruin nature; they do not break down and will do great harm in the future. The process to produce the vast array of natural (hempen) plastics will not ruin the rivers as Dupont and other petrochemical companies have done. Ecology does not fit in with the plans of the Oil Industry and the political machine. Hemp products are safe and natural.

All of these amazing benefits that can heal our world from just one plant!! There are other plants and natural substances out there that can do the same.

If oil has not being brought out in the first place, our air, food, water, environment would have been so much cleaner for everyone to enjoy.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 2:12 pm
Excellent info Wayne. The evil mentality of the oil demons is mind boggling. At one point they also systematically shut down the trolley business in one city after another by simply going in and buying up all the companies and then going out and ripping up all the tracks. Buses are much less efficient and polluting and those bastards knew it but they wanted the money. And we could talk about how they shut down Nicola Tesla for the same reason. The list is long and their greed and avarice is truly incredible. Hey, welcome to the material world. What can be done? At least you're awake. Is there any chance we can wake up a few others? I really don't know but it's worth the effort. People like you and Simon renew my faith in mankind. Right on brother !

Thursday January 24, 2008, 2:17 pm
And gigantic kudos to Serge for starting this truly remarkable thread. It should be moved into as many groups as possible in Care2. This is vitally important information and time is running out. Everyone has to be alerted ASAP.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 6:40 pm
The New World Order by Ken Adachi

There is a worldwide conspiracy being orchestrated by a group of genetically related individuals (at least at the highest echelons) which include many of the very wealthy, politically powerful, and corporate elite of the world, as well as members of the solaced Black Nobility of Europe (especially the British Crown) whose goal is to create a One World (fascist) Government, stripped of nationalistic and regional boundaries, that is obedient to their agenda. Their intention is to effect complete control over every human being on the planet and to dramatically reduce four fifths of the world's population (5.5 Billion people), not only in such resource-rich countries like Africa (with AIDS, Ebola, etc. ), but also in America, where too many patriotic Americans, mindful of the words of the US Constitution, are viewed as a threat to the One World Government Plan. While the name New World Order is the term most frequently used today when referring to this group, it's more useful to identify the principal organizations, institutions, and individuals who make up this vast interlocking group of conspirators.

The Illuminati is the oldest term commonly used to refer to the 13 bloodline families (and their offshoots) that make up the backbone of this controlling elite. Most members of the Illuminati are also members in the highest ranks of numerous secretive and occult societies which (in many cases) extend straight back into the ancient world. The upper levels of the tightly compartmentalized (need-to-know-basis) Illuminati structural pyramid include planning committees and organizations that the public has little or no knowledge of. They include: the Council of 3, the Council of 5, the Council of 7, the Council of 9, the Council of 13, the Council of 33, the Grand Druid Council, the Committee of 300 (also called the "Olympians") and the Committee of 500 among others.

In 1992, Dr John Coleman published Conspirators Hierarchy: The Story of the Committee of 300. With laudable scholarship and impeccable research, Dr Coleman identifies the players and carefully details the Illuminati agenda of worldwide domination and control. On page 161, Dr Coleman summarizes the intent and purpose of the Committee of 300 as follows:

"A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population. There will be no middle class, only rulers and the servants. All laws will be uniform under a legal system of world courts practicing the same unified code of laws, backed up by a One World Government police force and a One World unified military to enforce laws in all former countries where no national boundaries shall exist. The system will be on the basis of a welfare state; those who are obedient and subservient to the One World Government will be rewarded with the means to live; those who are rebellious will simple be starved to death or be declared outlaws, thus a target for anyone who wishes to kill them. Privately owned firearms or weapons of any kind will be prohibited."

The sheer magnitude and complex web of deceit surrounding the individuals and organizations involved in this conspiracy is mind boggling, even for the most astute among us. Most people react with disbelief and skepticism towards the topic, unaware that they have been conditioned (brainwashed) to react with skepticism by institutional and media influences that were created by the Mother of All mind control organizations: The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations in London. Author and de-programmer Fritz Springmeier (The Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines ) says that most people have built in "slides" that short circuit the mind's critical examination process when it comes to certain sensitive topics. "Slides", Springmeier reports, is a CIA term for a conditioned type of response which dead ends a person's thinking and terminates debate or examination of the topic. For example, the mention of the word "conspiracy" usually solicits a slide response with many people.

What most Americans believe to be "Public Opinion" is in reality carefully crafted and scripted propaganda designed to elicit a desired behavioral response from the public. Public opinion polls are really taken with the intent of gauging the public's acceptance of the Illuminati's mind controlled programs. A strong showing in the polls tells the Illuminati that the programing is "taking", while a poor showing tells the NWO manipulators that they have to recast or "tweak" the programming until the desired response is achieved. While the thrust and content of the propaganda is decided at Tavistock, implementation of the propaganda is executed in the United States by well over 200 'think tanks' such as the Rand Corporation and the Brookings Institute which are overseen and directed by the top NWO mind control organization in the United States, the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in Menlo Park, California.

The NWO global conspirators manifest their agenda through the skillful manipulation of human emotions, especially fear. In the past centuries, they have repeatedly utilized a contrivance that NWO researcher and author David Icke has characterized in his latest book, The Biggest Secret, as Problem, Reaction, and Solution.

The technique is as follows: Illuminati strategists create the Problem- by funding , assembling, and training an "opposition" group to stimulate turmoil in an established political power (sovereign country, region, continent, etc.) that they wish to impinge upon and thus create opposing factions in a conflict that the Illuminati themselves maneuvered into existence. In recent decades, so called "opposition" groups are usually identified in the media as 'freedom fighters' or 'liberators' (most recently
the KLA-Kosovo Liberation Army). At the same time, the leader of the established political power where the conflict is being orchestrated is demonized and, on cue, referred to as 'another Hitler' (take your pick: Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Kadaffi, Osama bin-Laden etc.). The 'freedom fighters' are not infrequently assembled from a local criminal element (i.e. KLA, drug traffickers). In the spirit of true Machiavellian deceit, the same NWO strategists are equally involved in covertly arming and advising the leader of the established power as well (the Illuminati always profits from any armed conflict by loaning money, arming, and supplying ALL parties involved in a war).

The conflict is drawn to the world stage by the controlled media outlets with a barrage of photos and video tape reports of horrific and bloody atrocities suffered by innocent civilians. The cry goes up "Something has to be done!" And That is the desired Reaction (note: the same technique is presently being used to bring about gun control in the United States).

The NWO puppeteers then provide the Solution by sending in UN 'Peace Keepers' (Bosnia) or a UN 'Coalition Force' (Gulf War) or NATO Bombers and then ground troops (Kosovo). Once installed, the 'peace keepers' never leave (Bosnia). The idea is to have NWO controlled ground troops in all major countries or strategic areas where significant resistance to the New World Order takeover is likely to be encountered.

The local, sovereign military force is either defeated (i.e. Yugoslavia) or, as in the case of the United States, replaced by foreignUN "Partnership For Peace" (PFP) troops who take over the jobs of US soldiers who have been sent overseas on 'peacekeeping' missions. In addition to being killed in ground conflicts on foreign soil, US military forces will likely be reduced through disease induced attrition (i.e. from mandatory Anthrax Vaccinations required of all US military personnel). These vaccinations will, in all probability, eventually produce the symptoms of the so-called Gulf War Illness for those vaccinated .

The corporate portion of the NWO pyramid seems to be dominated by international bankers and the big pharmaceutical cartels, as well as other major multinational corporations. The Royal Family of England, namely Queen Elizabeth II and the House of Windsor,, are high level players in the oligarchy which controls the upper strata of the Illuminati. The decision making nerve centers of this effort are in the London especially the City of London) and Brussels (NATO headquarters).

The United Nations , along with all the agencies working under the UN umbrella, such as the World Health Organization (WHO), are full time players in this scheme. Similarly, NATO is a military tool of the NWO.

The leaders of all major industrial countries like the United States, England, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, etc. (E.g. members of the "G7/G8" ) are active and fully cooperative participants in this conspiracy. In this century, the degree of control exerted by the Illuminati has advanced to the point that only certain hand-picked individuals, who are groomed and selected by the Illuminati are even eligible to become the prime minister or president of countries like England, Germany, or The United States. It didn't matter whether Bill Clinton or Bob Dole won the Presidency in 1996, the results would have been the same (except maybe for Zipper Gate ). Both men are playing on the same team for the same ball club. Anyone who isn't a team player is taken out: i.e. President Kennedy, Ali Bhutto (Pakistan) and Aldo Moro (Italy). More recently, Admiral Borda, William Colby, and Sonny Bono were also killed because they were either unwilling to go along with the conspiracy to destroy America, weren't cooperating in some capacity, or were attempting to expose/ thwart the Takeover agenda.

Most of the major wars, political upheavals, and economic depression/recessions of the past 100 years were carefully planned and instigated by the machinations of these elites. They include The Spanish-American War (1898), World War I and World War II; TheGreat Depression; the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917; the Rise of Nazi Germany; the Korean War; the Vietnam War; the 1989-91"fall" of Soviet Communism, the 1991 Gulf War; and the recent War in Kosovo.

The instigation of a trumped-up war as a cover for amassing fortunes can be dated back to at least the 12th Century when only a core group of nine members of an Illuminati group called the Knights Templar, the military arm of an Illuminati secret society known as the Priory of Sion, kicked off The Crusades that lasted for over a century and a half. A rift later developed between the Templars and the Priory of Sion when Jerusalem was lost to Saracen Turks in 1187. In 1307, the king of France, Philippe the Fair (a Merovingian Illuminati), coveted the wealth and was jealous of the Templars' power. The French king, being a puppet of the Priory of Sion, set out to arrest all the Templars in France on October 13. While many Templars were seized and tortured, including their Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, many other Templars (who had been tipped off) escaped. They eventually resurfaced in Portugal, in Malta (as the Knights of Malta) and later in Scotland as The Scottish Rites of Free Masonry.

The acquisition and consolidation of ever greater wealth, natural resources, total political power, and control over others are the motivating forces which drives the decisions of the Illuminati. The toll in human suffering and the loss of innocent lives are non issues for these individuals, who are aligned with very dark and malevolent 4th dimensional aliens.

Recent revelations from deprogrammed Illuminati mind controlled individuals such as Arizona Wilder (The Biggest Secret), Cisco Wheeler (The Top 13 Bloodlines of the Illuminati), Cathy O'Brien (Trance Formation in America), and Bryce Taylor (Thanks for the Memories) leave NO DOUBT that the upper levels of the Illuminati are all practicing Satanists who regularly participate in satanic rituals which include the killing of young children, the drinking of human blood and the eating of human flesh and organs.

Some of the organizational and political elements of the the Illuminati include: Majesty Twelve, Order of the Quest, The Bilderberg Group, The Trilateral Commission, The Executive Committee of The Council on Foreign Relations, The PI-40 Committee, The Jason Group, The Club of Rome, The Group, The Royal Institute of International Affairs, The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, The Round Table, The Committee of 300, The Anti Defamation League (ADL), The Aspen Institute, The American Civil Liberties Union, The British Royal Society, The Fabian Society, The Thule Society, The Union of Concerned Scientists, The International Red Cross, Kissinger Associates, The Brookings Institute, The Hudson Institute, The Ford
Foundation, The Rockefeller and Carnegie Foundations, Order of St John of Jerusalem, The Russell Sage Foundation, The Milner Group, British Petroleum, The Open Friendly Secret Society, The Rosicrucians, The Brotherhood of the Dragon (or Snake), The Russell Trust, The Black Nobility families of Europe, Order of Skull & Bones, The Scroll & Key Society, The Knights of Malta, the Illuminati arm of The Freemasons, The Scottish Rites of Freemasons, and many, many other groups. In general, only the upper elites at the top of these pyramid structures are the NWO decision makers and not the lower echelon functionaries and managers who are usually in the dark about the true aims of their organizations.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 6:56 pm
Wayne, Unfortunately, as you accurately predict, most people are effectively programmed to dismiss all this with a knowing sneer and a chuckle. What I always say is, "There's only one thing more remarkable than fiction." Fact. When people actually start to open up to and understand this stuff it can be a mind boggling experience.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 7:09 pm
Likewise, thanks Sarvo

"Behold the turtle: He only makes progress when he sticks his neck out."
James Bryant Conant
1893-1978, Educator and Diplomat

Thursday January 24, 2008, 7:49 pm
Wayne, on the flip side of the coin, there are many groups and hidden organizations who fight this scum and permeating evil in this world, and always have. Kind of like a movie , except its real. The battle between good vs. evil has always been on, its a battle that has gone on in the hearts and souls of men thru eternity- and always will. Keeping the planet in balance is no easy feat, especially these days with all the new tools of modern technology, etc. getting in the wrong hands. Enslavement of the masses by a few , as we all know, has been going on for milleniums on this planet.
This quest for the NWO will fail like it has in the past, but will likely cause alot of bloodshed and pain(it already has)before it does. I wish i could post a list of the good families and good organizations that fight to keep this NWO from not suceeding everyday, but they are the real secret society these days, they are the ones who really have to stay hidden unfortunately, although many them walk among us everyday. They are the ones that would really give us the shirts off there back and feed us when we are hungry and shelter us when we are cold, the real moral majority(not some reaganistic majority).They are the real Army that maintains the good on this planet everyday. Good has always prevailed in the end and always will. The first battle many people have to win is as i said is in their own heart and soul, not an easy task for many in this day and age, thus the balance of the planet has been thrown off.
Thanks for the outstanding info. Wayne. Alot of the Info. on the hemp was new to me and is appreciated.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 7:55 pm
Sarvo- thanks for the Kudos!!

Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying. ~Baba Ram Dass

Thursday January 24, 2008, 7:56 pm
Excellent organization on your posts and arguements and to those who have shared personal information on their lives much thanks. South Africa can't be classified strictly as a 3rd world country but I work daily in the environs spoken of above. The WHO pushed by Rockefeller money (funny how often that name comes up) mandated for 30 years sterilization, abortion and contraception as fundamental planning in 3rd world countries to receive health benefits. This hasn't worked. Education as a component has always been secondary. We all need to remember that people first have to understand the world is round before they can consider global concerns. Sarvo's solutions take time and education to large extent an environment were thought is valued. The NWO is intertwined with so many alphabet groups they'd be impossible to list but a very valid concern. Simon's posts are right on to the money. People don't reproduce like Impala because they enjoy watching their children die. Fostering mandatory sterilization on the 3rd world is the most ludicrous statement on this thread. You might just as well Nuke `em and get it over with.
There is one more point though that might be considered. When there is war the birthrate increases. Maybe if time was spent to eliminate that exploitation of earth, population explosion would become a moot point.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 8:38 pm
Micheal W.- You said " There is one more point though that might be considered. When there is war the birthrate increases". That comment reminded me of the Blackout in NYC in 77 or 78 for some reason. According to the news , 9 months after the blackout there was a small babyboom in NYC, very strange. Lets hope the lights stay on, lol.

Thursday January 24, 2008, 10:25 pm
Hi Jim Phillips,
I didn't say that you were a fascist. I was railing against your promotion of fascist ideas, such as eugenics. (I was "ordering you" in the sense that my words had moral authority, since eugenics is unethical.) What else can you call what you did? I think the way we were taught about this at university was more balanced. We students were taught right from the outset about the context of eugenics - fascism, racism, rightwing authoritarianism - so that if we were interested in exploring eugenics further, we at least knew what we were getting ourselves into: genocide - for eugenics ideas are "the serpent's egg" - seeds of another holocaust.

Knowing about eugenics and where eugenics can lead, I give a very harsh warning to you and others about eugenics, right now. Study it if you want, but just know that if you embrace those ideas, you are getting into fascism, and if you promote them, you are promoting fascism. Even when we don't take eugenics as far as fascism, eugenics is still authoritarian, sadistic, and hostile to human rights.

I know that eugenics have been used in the U.S.A. - according to Hitler, those 1920s and 1930s U.S. eugenics lawswere an inspiration to him. That is why I said in another post:

"We had more than enough fascism and eugenics in the 1920s-1940s (and 1950s when the U.S. government oppressed the people of Puerto Rico with racist coerced sterilization programs). The suffering that is caused is horrendous."

I was referring to the Europe and the U.S.A. (and its colony of Puerto Rico - which is still a U.S. colony, by the way - when are you going to allow them either independence or statehood?), where the government did forced sterilizations and made laws against "interracial marriages".

I welcome debate about eugenics - and how much suffering it causes, for sure, Jim. : )

Friday January 25, 2008, 1:01 am
Hi Simon Wood,

Thank you for your comments and feedback. Much appreciated. To set the record straight, I oppose eugenics. You are right about eugenics being a fascist, racist act. No question there. And I do agree that eugenics is morally wrong and unethical. Always have and always will. As for promoting eugenics, no, I'm not promoting it, just questioning the idea of it is all. Debate and you took it.

What about one or other countries that may have already initiated eugenics as a punishment for couples who have more than the alloted "one child per family" such as China... I would not be surprised that China has already done so in order to control its population.

I worked in a state hospital where eugenics had been practiced and done. I was stunned to find out the fact per medical records on various clients that eugenics, sterilizations were done. The clients were of a much older group in the hospital. I did find out that it was a standard practice in the very old days until it was outlawed. Nowadays, the only way a person can be forced to be sterilized is by court order.

There may come a time, in the future, that sterilizations, eugenics may be done either in a voluntary or forced manner. I don't know. I hope not. I don't or won't want be around to see it happen.

I had forgotten about Puerto Rico. Thank you for reminding me.

Genocide - now, that is an interesting word. It is being done right now. All over the World.

SeeYa, Jim. : )

Friday January 25, 2008, 9:37 am
Sterilaztions have been a practice of the WHO for years, not so much for eugencis as for genocide. They have no intention of creating a supper race unless its a super race of slaves.
This has become an intersting discussion. One that I had hoped would grow out of the posting on the human genome project. http://www.care2.com/news/member/625613553/611835
It was my own fault that was taken more in a direction of race. There is a massive effort - 10's of billions of USD being spent- the information from which could be used to create a master race. The development of vaccines to treat "potentially new deadly viruses"(?) (which ones unless manufactured in someway?), along with mapping characteristic traits based on genes has that parallel potential. Coming to grips with the idea that people who purportedly do not trust government, big business, big pharma etc. feel it's morally OK to contribute to the human genome project or anyone of several other attempt to genetically modify anything. No trust should = No trust. The debate looses itself in government administrations and not the potential for abuse. Who controls those who are supposed to be in oversight? When apartheid was in effect ZA had several labs going, to engineer bacteria and viruses to target a specific ethnic group or create vaccines that would allow the release of biologicals on a large scale while the vaccinated group would survive the other would die. Virtually every county involved in the Cold War had the same. Along with its nuclear weapons and production capabilities FW de Klerk dismantled these programs and to my knowledge ZA is the only country to ever fully do so. In the mid-90's there was pressure to reactivate those labs supposedly to produce vaccines. Mbeki's government said no and the USA let the contracts out to Canada, Uk, Argentina and France. Not without price. Remember how he was castigated(& ZA with him) in western msm as an individual who didn't believe AIDS had a viral component and that diseases couldn't be caused by microbes? ZA was portrayed as a "back water" country that had no desire to take care of its people. Eugenics, Simon was probably such a part of your education because of the Aboriginal issue. I 'm not sure. I know it's not discussed to any degree in US education unless its under the banner of a limited discussion of genetics and isn't tied in with the socialogical component. Genocide makes mapping the human genome easier- fewer sub-groups. Eugenics. Such a progressively sounding word, but such a regressive ideology. After thinking about it most of the day: I think Simon's still spot on.

Friday January 25, 2008, 9:40 am
Wow! Thanks to Serge, and all commentators! I also was hoping I offended no one with my thoughts. Thanks to Simon! I think there is information out that vaccines contain mercury and secret toxins, etc. that can give children autism and other people illness' later in life. So of course we need vaccines, I don't have enough knowledge, but I guess we need SAFE vaccines, if there are any. Or we need to make them! Sarvio, thank you for your comments on everything. I loved the comment "Proving to me once again that the last best chance for mother earth is somehow assembling right here in Care2". What a wonderful thought and I;m glad you found no offense in my comments. You seem wise, and I have a long way to go. Wayne Campbell, it's all too real, everything you posted. I'll have to re-read the NewWorldOrder, it's mind boggling but so clear it's true. Sad to note that this drive has been on forever, what a waste of the human potential for greatness. Miriam, thanks for setting a great example. Peace out, S.M. Z.

Friday January 25, 2008, 9:44 am
You cannot currently send a star to serge because you have done so within the last week.

Friday January 25, 2008, 10:38 am
Thanks needs to go to Jim P. who helped put the eugenics question on the table. Anybody who follows his posts can realize he doesn't go to the WB's School of Genetic Non-diversity & Eugenically Mastered Global Pacification.

Friday January 25, 2008, 4:21 pm
A film I watched as an undergrad Political Science student stated how in Nature, over and over again, a critical mass leading to consciousness explosion occurs at 10 billion. As part of the natural world, we humans are subject to this critical mass theory happening at 10 billion. The message was one of hopefulness, that it is the global transformation of the arrival of the Aquarian age, one which shifts from the career-focused, money-hungry, warring age of Capricorn, to the spiritually evolving consciousness of the Aquarian age. Yeah! I for one, look forward to the shift with great anticipation! Wish I could find that film again. It was called "The Global Mind" and the Narrator was British. Can anyone get me a copy? Please?

Friday January 25, 2008, 4:43 pm
I know a woman in her mid-50s who says she was a poor white young woman dating a black man in the South who got pregnant and was sterilized at her baby's birth without her knowledge or consent so that she would not have any more kids.

Sunday January 27, 2008, 10:09 pm
Jim Phillips, I think I misundertood you before - I'm sorry about that. I am glad to hear that you don't agree with eugenics. : )

Thursday January 31, 2008, 10:03 am
Life on this planet is controlled by the System of Life that is not the creation of our reasoning. All our educations, religions, and political systems have failed in linking ourselves with this System that is the only Divine one that we can rely upon. Presently all our systems serve our systems that are in conflict with the System of Life. Humanity must be re-educated to serve life better, then all the problems that we make will disappear. We have no right to nreak the seams of Life with our population explosion, Those who are blind to this danger are really blind.

Saturday February 2, 2008, 9:35 pm
I believe in the NWO and that we may be in the End Times of the Bible. Overpopulation is a BIG problem! It's like someone bringing an elephant into your house and saying, "Here you go." You say you don't want the elephant but tough! You are stuck with this great big elephant in your tiny house and it wants to be cleaned, feed, watered and you can't pawn it off on someone else and you don't want to kill it or maybe can't! I hate seeing people on tv who are proud to say they are "baby breeders" for the white race and others who say
that birth control is against their religion! There's one couple who are mormons who have I think 14 and one on the way children and they have had 2 count them TWO tv shows about them!!! They are making money
off overpopulating! Then there's that lady who couldn't have kids and she got pregnant using that fertility drug
where you get multiples and then against her doctor's advice, chose to carry all 6 fetuses!!! Because of her religious beliefs, they got a years worth of Huggies, money for college, a new car, baby-sitting free and even were offered a new home and a washer and dryer! They have been on tv numberous times and it is SICK!

Sunday February 3, 2008, 2:07 am
Even the elephants are now experiencing problems because the people are so much in the thrall of lust, anger and greed. This is coming down from the NWO power brokers who don't have anyone but their own best interests at heart. A small bird is naturally provided for with the few grains it needs to feed itself and young ones in the nest. The elephant needs one hundred kilos of food a day and before the people started destroying environments for $ (lust, anger, greed) the elephant also was amply and well provided for. The genocidal mentality that many people are now buying into very much supports their stated plan to do away with about five billion and only keep about one billion to serve them. If, however, we can learn how to cooperate and work together and share what we have rather than turning it over to the elite few who run the show, there may be a chance. If they are able to hoodwink us into thinking that scientific chemical hedges will win the day, then we will suffer more and more. We have to learn self control, otherwise very brilliant people who have nothing but contempt and disdain for the common lot will continue to control us and do all our thinking for us.

Sunday February 3, 2008, 2:09 am
Hey Satheesan, stop blaming the poorest people!!!

How about you read what I wrote above? As I said already, the privileged people of the world (most people in the first world, and the bourgeoisie and petit bourgeoisie in the Third World), cause many times more damage to our environment per person than poor people in the Third World. Therefore, if we honestly want to live in harmony with our environment, we will prioritise our focus on the biggest destroyers: us privileged people, who are privileged enough to use computers, internet, etc.. We will reduce the number of people who live these very destructive lifestyles, and change to living more simply.

The socialist revolution in Cuba has accomplished this. The people of Cuba are the only society who meet the standards of "sustainable development" according to the WWF. So, yes, contrary to what you have said, political systems CAN link ourselves with this system. Indeed, the Indigenous political movements of Latin America are perhaps even closer linked to this system, and may surpass Cuba in environmental harmony in the future, as they take power back from the white capitalist bourgeoisie in Bolivia and other parts of Latin America.

Anyway, as I explained VERY CLEARLY in a comment above (and you will know if you have the common decency to read what others have written), the people of the world who do have lots of children do so to try to susrvive and prosper unequal capitalist system, to try to get standards of living similar to YOURS and MINE. To expect them to change their ways, and resign themselves to living in squalor and risking having no-one to care for them when they are old - i.e. to expect them to have less children - this is hypocrisy, and has no moral weight - to argue that they must live poorer than us and suffer more than us is a ridiculous and selfish argument, it is merely hot air, without meaning.

However, if we are honest about reducing our environmental impact, then we will first of all prioritise the simplification of the lifestyles of privileged people. And second of all we will reduce the birth rate of privileged people from the reducing birthrate that it is now in many countries (in Australia, Europe and Japan) to an even lower rate.

And third most effective (and therefore a lower priority than those first 2 issues, if we are honest about caring for our envrionment), will be if we address the population growth of the least destructive people, the poor majority of the world. And as I wrote above, if we are honest about reducing birth rate, then we will tackle the root cause that makes people want to have lots of children: POVERTY. If we REDUCE POVERTY, if we INCREASE EQUALITY (especially women's rights, education and opportunities), then we will reduce people's reasons to want more children - and therefore humanity's birthrate will drop.

Sunday February 3, 2008, 2:13 am
Hey April, please read the comments I have written in this thread, especially the most recent one that I wrote to Satheesan. Those comments I wrote are quite appropriate to you too.

Sunday February 3, 2008, 2:35 am
It's interesting to see how effective the indoctrination is. People don't hesitate to buy into the politically correct concepts that turn over more and more control to the very people who have brought about the incredible problems and major inequities that now face mankind.