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The Holy Land Gets Skunked

World  (tags: 'HUMANRIGHTS!', middle-east, israel, crime, palestine )

- 1876 days ago -
Consider the fact that a recent CIA report calls into question the Zionist state's ability to last for more than another twenty years. No, the bad smell coming from Israel denotes internal socio-political rot, as well as rotten tactics toward non-Jewish

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Abdessalam Diab (145)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 5:52 am
The Holy Land Gets Skunked — An Analysis (25 March 2013) by Lawrence Davidson

Part I – Something Is Rotten in the State of Israel

It is said that the devil has about him the smell of fire and brimstone (sulphur). Evil deeds are often described as “most foul.” On the other hand, people who appear, accurately or not, as always innocent are described as “smelling like roses.” There seems, then, to be a long standing, if improbable, association between behavior and smells.

The Israeli army has recently dedicated itself to demonstrating this association. Back on 6 March 2013 the Middle East Monitor reported that

Israeli forces have sprayed Palestinian homes in the village of Nabi Saleh with Skunk as punishment for organizing weekly protests against the Apartheid Wall built on occupied land. Human rights watchdog B’Tselem published a video showing Israel’s armored tanker trucks fitted with “water canons” [spraying] the foul fluid.

Skunk is a fluid so offensive smelling that people automatically retreat from anywhere or anyone doused with it.

This is not the first time the Israelis have used such noxious tactics. Zionist settlers are fond of diverting the sewage from their illegal settlements, which are usually placed on high ground, into the fields and towns of Palestinians living in the valleys below. This is apparently done with the knowledge and approval of the Israeli state.

I doubt if many of the Israelis involved in these maneuvers have ever read Dante’s Inferno. In that epic poem, Hell is a place steeped in sewage and rot, and Israeli actions seem intent on reproducing this scenario. Are the Israelis then trying to turn the Holy Land into Hell? Well, yes, for the Palestinians. To this end the settlers and soldiers mimic Dante’s demons.

Part II – Selective Smelling

How far does the bad smell of Israeli actions reach? We can be sure that it reaches as far as London, where MP David Ward of the Liberal Democratic Party recently wrote in a Holocaust Memorial book that,

having visited Auschwitz twice . . . I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.

Ward’s reference to “the Jews” have been qualified, because not all Jews support Zionism or Israel’s claim to “Judea and Samaria,” much less the pogrom-like way the Israelis are going about ethnically cleansing the areas under their control. In fact, an increasing number of American Jews are, if you will, washing their hands of Israel in general. Yet Ward was correct when it comes to the “Jewish state’s” behavior. Perhaps Mr. Ward’s confusion was a product of Israel’s constant insistence that it represents all the world’s Jews.

Not everyone seems to smell the odor emanating from Israel. Mr. Ward’s Liberal Democratic Party called him to account for daring to draw attention to the fact that foul acts continue to be committed against the Palestinians by the self-proclaimed representative of the Jews. A quiet word to Ward about avoiding generalizations would probably have sufficed but, using a process similar to those carried out by totalitarian regimes, Ward’s party ordered him “to meet with the party’s ‘Friends of Israel’ chapter to ‘identify and agree on language that will be proportionate and precise when he speaks out again on the Israeli-Palestine conflict.” He did so and issued the required apology. This smells like censorship to me.

Part III – Foul Is Fair

It’s one thing to punish someone for calling attention to Israel’s rank behavior. It is something else to insist that foul is actually fair–-to say the sewage smells like roses. Who would be reckless enough to imply such a nauseating thing and do so with a straight face before cameras with the whole world watching? How about the President of the United States? He lives in Washington D.C., where denial of Israel’s malodorous nature is almost unanimous.

President Obama had an interview with Israel’s Channel 2 TV station on 15 March 2013, just before he left to visit that country. In the interview he stated that he admires Israel’s “core values.” The Israeli journalist Gideon Levy, who has an honest nose for these things, editorially asked Obama,

which values he was talking about? The dehumanization of the Palestinians? The attitude toward African migrants? The arrogance, racism and nationalism? Is this what he admires? Don’t separate buses for Palestinians remind him of something? Doesn’t two communities living on the same land, one with full rights and the other with no rights, ring a bell . . . ?

To admire “core values” while knowing we’re talking about one of the most racist countries there is, with a separation wall and apartheid-like policies, means betraying the core values of the American civil rights movement that made the Obama miracle possible.

Nonetheless, upon arriving in Israel, President Obama said that U.S. support for the very same Israel Levy describes will “be forever.” It might be added that, at the same time, the president insisted that the Palestinians cease demanding a halt to the building of settlements, with their targeted open- sewer policies, before any further “peace” negotiations with the Israelis.

When it comes to Israel, President Obama, and most of the Congress as well, can’t tell the difference between fair and foul. That is because they live in a peculiar professional world whose parameters, in reference to Israel and Palestine, are defined by a Zionist lobby with Orwellian powers. In this special world, double-think abounds. Racism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and the tactical use of Skunk and raw sewage disappear and are replaced by imaginary “core values” that smell like roses.

Part IV – Conclusion

The president can privately smell garbage and call it roses all he wants. But when he tries to sell the rest of us on this connection, the credibility of his language sinks into the gutter. Remember what George Orwell tells us about the potential for harm in the misuse of political language. Misused, such language offers a “defense of the indefensible” and is “designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.” That is what most politicians’ language has sunk to when it comes to Israel/Palestine.

That this should go on “forever,” as the president claims, is just hyperbole. Consider the fact that a recent CIA report calls into question the Zionist state’s ability to last for more than another twenty years. No, the bad smell coming from Israel denotes internal socio-political rot, as well as rotten tactics toward non-Jewish inhabitants. Sooner or later everyone possessing a humane conscience, to say nothing of a functioning honest nose, will refuse to have anything to do with this “apartheid-like” state.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 6:34 am
Israeli security forces spray 'Skunk' at Palestinian homes
Middle East Monitor. Watch the video

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 6:44 am

Anything surprising in the Zionesia Apartheid State ?

So the Rottenchild dependent followers of the (non) religion of doomsday, destruction and globalization - addiction aka Zionism seem to have a favour for muck.

An other icon of their extremist non spiritual vibes or in other words 'like attracts the equal'.

But, as said above, nothing new.

Michela M (3964)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 10:15 am

Angelika R (143)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 10:27 am
No surprise at all- but a DOUBLE SHAME over the EASTER holidays!
We are seeing it again and again: STINKING VIOLENCE versus PEACEFUL PROTEST . will this ever change?
IDF have been using this skunk for quite some time in multiple occasions, a very nasty and humilating offense!
Thanks my friend for this post!

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 11:31 am

My dad told me that is nothing worse than skunk oil on clothes, they must be burned.

I just wonder what is the answer? We now have generations that have known nothing but being repressed, kept out of the social function of a land that they dominate in numbers. I think this is so short sighted, there will not be a two state solution, not when settlements continue to be added. The one state will not be a "Jewish" state, because of numbers alone. Very sad that people all over the globe can this and those who live isolated behind large walls, think all is well.

Abo r (107)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 1:00 pm
No Surprise ... What do you expect from zionest to spray perfume or distribute flowers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is always think of what things want to do to let the Falestinians to suffer?
Zionest want to live happy securd and in peace even if it is on the account of others.!!!
It is sham.
Thanks Abdessalam for concern, posting and forwarding.

Henriette Matthijssen (154)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 1:12 pm
It is a disgrace that the Zionist from Israel cannot treat their neighbours the same as they could easily experience! The skunk stinks belongs to them for the action they are doing to the Palestinians. The people of the world are watching & Zionist are slowly burying themselves to the depth that they are not to be trusted any where they are! Thank Abdessalam.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 1:28 pm
Young American Jews & Israel

What Jews under 35 feel towards Israel goes beyond apathy to outright resentment.
by Jonathan Rosenblum

Sociologists Stephen Cohen and Ari Kelman have now confirmed what everyone already knew: Young American Jews do not care very much about Israel. They are not just apathetic about Israel, that indifference is "giving way to downright alienation," write Cohen and Kelman.
More than half of Jews under 35 said that they would not view the destruction of Israel as a personal tragedy. The death and expulsion of millions is something they could live with. By those standards, they probably would not see the Holocaust as a "personal" tragedy either.

"These results are very upsetting," said Jewish Agency chairman Zev Bielski. He then proceeded to give an inane explanation for those numbers: the comfortable life of most American Jews.
Cohen and Kelman know better. And their answer is summed up in the demographic they did not interview for their study: Orthodox Jews. A survey of young Orthodox Jews would have yielded a diametrically opposed and highly embarrassing result.

Among younger Jews, those for whom their Judaism is important – primarily the Orthodox – will remain connected to the fate of their fellow Jews in Israel. Most Orthodox American youth will study in Israel after high school, some for many years. And almost all will visit Israel many times. Eretz Yisrael is not a mere abstraction for them, but the center of the spiritual life of the Jewish people.

The majority of young American Jews and the majority of young Israelis share in common a lack of interest in their Judaism. But that shared negativity provides little basis for a relationship. Shared gene pools won't do it either – that smacks of racism. And ethnic identity, it turns out, cannot be passed down, or survive the breakup of ethnically homogeneous neighborhoods.
What young Jews under 35 feel towards Israel goes beyond apathy to outright resentment. Israel complicates their social lives and muddies their political identity. Only 54% profess to be comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state at all. In Europe and on elite American campuses, internationalism and a world-without-borders are the rage. The Jews of Israel, with their stubborn insistence on protecting their nation-state, are, as always, out-of-sync.
Young American Jews do not wish to be tarred with their atavisms. On campus and where enlightened folk meet, Israel is scorned as a colonial oppressor. Who wants to be identified as a sympathizer with apartheid? Young American Jews today share fears of being out of step with their enlightened peers.
Molly Umberger, whose mother is program director of the leftist New Israel Fund (NIF), told the Jerusalem Post that she views both Israel and Palestinians as having made lots of mistakes and the situation as complicated, but generally "tries not to think about [ Israel]." (No wonder when Bruce Temkin, the director of the NIF, describes Israel as a "turn-off.") Daniel Alperin, 33, describes his interest in Israel as waning when he began to hear "the bad stuff" – probably about the time he entered college.
Already the trends lines were pointing in this direction forty years ago. In a 1965 Commentary symposium of younger Jewish intellectuals – the least religiously identified segment of American Jewry – only one expressed complete comfort with Israel's creation and pride in its accomplishments, and he eventually made aliyah. The rest expressed various degrees of discomfort with Israel's militarism (and this was before 1967 and the "occupation"). The only Jewish identity they acknowledged at all was that of the "Jew" as the perpetually alienated critic of those in power – not exactly one upon which to base a connection to other Jews. Now the rest of American Jewry is catching up to those once young intellectuals.
The historic link between American Jewry and Israel is coming to an end.
The implications of Cohen and Kelman's findings for American Jewry are great. The historic bargain linking American Jewry and Israel since the founding of the State is coming to an end. The terms of the deal were unspoken, but clear: Israel would provide American Jews with a sense of pride and identity as Jews, and they, in turn, would shower upon Israel their financial and political support. But Israel is no longer a source of pride for many Jews, and the identity it provides is not one which they wish to share.
But the survey signals something else as well: a declining understanding on the part of American Jews of Judaism in terms of a national identity that imposes obligations to one's co-nationals.
Cohen and Kelman are wrong to argue that ethnic identity is being replaced by religious identity. For when young American Jews say that they view their Judaism as a religious not national identity, the religion they refer to is a pretty tepid affair. Precisely because it is so tepid does it fail to provide them a sense of connection to their fellow Jews, whether in America or abroad. It is a religion largely lacking connection to the Land of Israel, and even more importantly to the defining event in Jewish history the giving of Torah at Sinai. Absent the latter, there is no common mission to link the descendants of those who stood at Sinai.
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The impact of the declining sense of responsibility to one's fellow Jews is being felt within American Jewry itself, not just in attitudes towards Israel. Already only 6% of giving by mega-Jewish foundations goes to remotely Jewish causes. It is hardly surprising, for instance, that non-Jewish spouses are not eager to contribute to Jewish causes. In time, funding the institutions of American Jewry will become ever more difficult.
The political implications for Israel are large as well. Fortunately, Professors Walt and Mearsheimer are wrong about an Israel Lobby comprised mostly of those with Jewish-sounding names. It is devout Christians, and not some nefarious Israel Lobby, which is the primary bulwark of American support for Israel today. That we have to rely on Christian support, rather than our fellow Jews, however, is a very mixed blessing indeed.
This article originally appeared in the Jerusalem Post.


. (0)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 1:51 pm
How Kit can there ever be a Palestinian state when they refuse to recognige Isreal's right to exist? Except when they need medical attention,permits to establish a business have the money to rent an apartment, send there children to Israeli schools?

Angelika R (143)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 1:55 pm
Excellent article, thx Abdessalam! I am not so sure about tht last sentence, Prof Walt + Mearsheimer being in error about the "Israel Lobby"-I read their papers. But if that is indeed the case, I would not call it a "mixed blessing", no blessing at all, actually.

" Eretz Yisrael is not a mere abstraction for them, but the center of the spiritual life of the Jewish people. "
Quite difficult. It reminds me of our former situation with the wall right through us. So how do THEY feel with that wall...
We could never be the center of our life, spiritual or otherwise and that's why we had Bonn and not Berlin as our capital. Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are very similar situations.

Sherri G (128)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 2:17 pm
Palestine people - I urge you to add the opportunity to "tweet" these stories and others in the Palestinian news groups that they can be sent to various American readers and government to get American visibility. Then any of us on Care2 can tweet the stories.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 3:34 pm
Allan Workowitz writes " How Kit can there ever be a Palestinian state when they refuse to recognige Isreal's right to exist?"
Another Hasbara graduate who didn't read history and comes to such stories just to deny the right of Palestinians under false accusations . I'll remind him,however,that President Clinton has attended a special meeting of the National Palestinian Council in Gaza on December 14,1998 where the NPC confirmed again that it rejected fully,finally and forever the passage in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. President Bill Clinton spoke to the NPC members on that day saying " I thank you for your rejection -- fully, finally and forever -- of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo. By revoking them once and for all, you have sent, I say again, a powerful message not to the government, but to the people of Israel. You will touch people on the street there. You will reach their hearts there. (Applause.)


Alicia N (87)
Saturday March 30, 2013, 10:19 pm
sadly noted............

Susan L (150)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 12:15 am
Israel is only losing any support they might have or hope to gain by using such despicable tactics on a people that they have already infiltrated and taken control of their land, homes and dignity. Not a way any of "God's People" should act towards others.

Giana P (398)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 1:11 am
It is important to watch the documentary Israeli film "The Gatekeepers". It made me feel very sad, and I seem to think that although the Israeli people want peace, their government does not!

P A (117)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 1:16 am

God bless and protect Gideon Levy, Lawrence Davidson, the human rights group B'Tselem and all like them trying to protect ordinary human decency and fairness between peoples! I thought this passage particularly telling

"President Obama had an interview with Israel’s Channel 2 TV station on 15 March 2013, just before he left to visit that country. In the interview he stated that he admires Israel’s “core values.” The Israeli journalist Gideon Levy, who has an honest nose for these things, editorially asked Obama,
"which values he was talking about? The dehumanization of the Palestinians? The attitude toward African migrants? The arrogance, racism and nationalism? Is this what he admires? Don’t separate buses for Palestinians remind him of something? Doesn’t two communities living on the same land, one with full rights and the other with no rights, ring a bell . . . ?

"To admire “core values” while knowing we’re talking about one of the most racist countries there is, with a separation wall and apartheid-like policies, means betraying the core values of the American civil rights movement that made the Obama miracle possible."

How on earth President Obama can come out with quantities of platitudes to the Israeli government when it is committing such atrocities as skunking whole villages (and worse) is beyond belief!

"That this should go on “forever,” as the president claims, is just hyperbole. Consider the fact that a recent CIA report calls into question the Zionist state’s ability to last for more than another twenty years. No, the bad smell coming from Israel denotes internal socio-political rot, as well as rotten tactics toward non-Jewish inhabitants. Sooner or later everyone possessing a humane conscience, to say nothing of a functioning honest nose, will refuse to have anything to do with this “apartheid-like” state."

Giana - tried to send you a star but the computer told me I had done so in the last day - sorry!


Pogle S (88)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 1:37 am
Stinks to high heaven!

Lynn D (0)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 2:49 am

Danuta W (1249)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 3:54 am

Nimue Michelle Pendragon Gaze (339)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 4:42 am
Noted thanks.

paul m (93)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 4:42 am

It's a pity Isreal is such a lovely Country

Kenneth L (314)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 5:01 am
@Abdessalam, why did you post the blog from Jonathan Rosenblum which states "More than half of Jews under 35 said that they would not view the destruction of Israel as a personal tragedy. The death and expulsion of millions is something they could live with. By those standards, they probably would not see the Holocaust as a "personal" tragedy either".

Is that YOUR opinion as well? You would welcome the destruction of Israel as a country? And you would welcome the 'death and expulsion' of millions if that occurred? A yes or no from you regarding these 2 questions would suffice.

Gloria picchetti (304)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 5:08 am
It's foul to ruin your neighbor's home.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 8:11 am
I certainly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist should it commit itself to all UN resolutions regarding this long hanging conflict. At the top of commitments is ending the occupation of the west bank, including east Jerusalem, and the siege on Gaza together with withdrawal from Syrian and Lebanese occupied land.This means that it must return to 4/6/1967 truce lines as its borers with may be slight land swap to be agreed upon between Israel on one side and Syria and Lebanon on the other side .

Kenneth L (314)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 11:30 am
You can't put such terms and conditions, essentially ultimatums, on whether an already existing nation in today's world should exist or not. You might not agree with what a country does, or what it's gov't. does, but that's not the same as saying it shouldn't exist as a country. And since you are using the U.N. to back you up, do you actually think the U.N. would go along with the idea that a nation already currently in existence shouldn't exist if it has U.N. violations? Get real. A number of countries have different U.N. violations.
Lots of countries don't agree with what the U.S. does, does that mean the U.S. shouldn't exist as a country or nation? (well, according to some fanatics it shouldn't). Same with Iran, or N. Korea etc.


. (0)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 11:41 am
Abdessalam: What you want, is certainly not what the Palestiniama want. The 20 year old letter from Arafat did nothing for me.
Explain The Palestinian Authority- a self governing body which supposidly governs the West Bank, and the Gaza. This group as early as January stated there will be no peace until Israel is eliminated(( paraphrase).
Are you familiar with Abbas Zakin? He is the Palestinian Ambassador to Lebanon who has routenly expressed his hate odf Israel, and its exostence.
By the way, can you explain what the National Palestinian Council on Gaza is vs The Palestinian Authority? It would appear the council hasn't changed its mind on Gaza (Clinton, 1998); they just changed their name.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 2:15 pm
Thanks occupy for your factual comment. I couldn't say better. Unfortunately there are still some people who want to give Israel a free hand over the whole world not only over Palestinians. One day,I am afraid,they may regret this.

Winn A (179)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 2:21 pm

Birgit W (160)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 4:04 pm

Sheryl G (363)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 6:08 pm
Keep posting, so more eyes will see what is going on. Pictures are worth a thousand words. I agree with Sue, that support is lost with dispicable actions. Where is the threat that this skunk spraying is required? I don't see any in this video to warrent it.

Tom Edgar (56)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 7:13 pm
Israel, in my opinion, does NOT have the right to exists AS A JEWISH STATE.. The original land of Palestine, when under the "Protectorate" (an oxymoron) of the English, existed RELATIVELY harmoniously in a fully integrated , religiously, condition until the country was stolen by the American/French/British alliance, partitioned then given to foreigners of the Jewish faith. Property that had been for generations owned by non Jews was stolen and given to the newly created State of Israel and the owners once dispossessed, declared non citizens, and banned from their own lands. Until there is a compensation, or return of their ancestral homes and lands there can never be an accommodation that is so blatantly politically and religion motivated.

The U S/UK/French alliance was motivated, in part, by the desire to have a reliable allie as a buffer in that region, and secondly as a sop to their collective consciences for the Nazi regime atrocities.

Much of the "Islamic" problems being experienced by the "West" today, actually has its emergence in this single act of perfidy. This doesn't negate that the divisions in religious and political ideologies has been, and probably will continue, to be problematic no matter what the "West" does. The problem is not being blind to the reasons but a lack of desire to actually see what is so obvious. I know it doesn't apply to Judaism, nor Islam, but does the Christian West ever stop to ask. What would Jesus do and say?

Patsy Olive (0)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 7:13 pm
These people have been fighting & killing each other ever since time begin.They should be left alone because
we can't stop it and we would be nuts to get involed in it.

Jelica R (144)
Sunday March 31, 2013, 7:54 pm
If Israel Government has ever cared to apply only a tiny fraction of inventiveness they apply to harassment of the Palestinians, toward achieving a settlement on the dispute over the territories (as stipulated by the UN Res. 181. - which also provided the legal base for establishment of the State of Israel itself!), peace would have long reigned the Holy Land.

Tom Edgar (56)
Monday April 1, 2013, 1:09 am
Oi Vay Occupy C 2. If one accepts the silly Biblical stories, especially from Genesis, They certainly have been fighting since Cain topped Abel and then there are all those acts of aggression commanded by God including the accepted rape of the women. Then there is the continuing conflict between Sunni and Shiiite and all the other splinter groups, Dervish etc., couple that with the still fermenting 400 year war between Catholics and Proddie Dogs in Ireland or the ongoing persecutions in South America of non Christian tribal natives.. I think I could circumnavigate the world and still find pockets of inter religious conflicts. Yep it is never ending. Maybe not quite as bad as previously. But give it time. Extremist Muslims in Europe are already waving their scimitars and finding ready sabre rattling fundamentalist "Christian" adversaries.

Jelica R (144)
Monday April 1, 2013, 2:18 am
Those "fighting & killing each other ever since time begin" claims serve only to postpone any reasonable solution. If there have always been hostilities, then there will be no one left to keep fighting. That's not to say that there were none old animosities between communities. Still they have managed to live side by side and collaborate. You don't have to love your neighbours, it is sufficient to respect their rights as much as you hold on to yours. Gee, some will never learn...

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 5:22 am
Perhaps you should remember that the Palestinians did not come into existence until after the Arabs failed miserably to destroy Israel and the Egyptian Arafat started asking for land to which there is no legal or moral entitlement in Israel. I note that Abdesalam is never able to comment on the appalling and anti-human rights behaviour of Muslims towards Palestinians probably because he seeks to draw attention away from it. He also fails to mention Jordan, a land that also came into existence through the British Palestinian Mandate which was for Arabs. Is this not the country in which they were expected to live? None of the anti-Semites here ever mentions this, amazing - not.

As for making peace, well you are all fully aware that the Arabs want to destroy Israel and make it totally Muslim. Mud slinging doesn't hide that fact.

This is the beginning of the Hamas Charter and the link so that you can read all about their real intentions.

Hamas Covenant 1988

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 5:23 am
The first 15 articles of the PLO Charter, follow the link for the rest

The PLO Charter
Below is the Palestinian National Covenant, the official charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). The text is the English version published officially by the PLO, unabridged and unedited.
Note, however, that the PLO's translation sometimes deviates from the original Arabic so as to be more palatable to Western readers. For example, in Article 15, the Arabic is translated as "the elimination of Zionism," whereas the correct translation is "the liquidation of the Zionist presence." "The Zionist presence" is a common Arabic euphemism for the State of Israel, so this clause in fact calls for the destruction of Israel, not just the end of Zionism.

Where subtleties in the original Arabic are important, the Arabic word has been inserted in parentheses.


Resolutions of the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968
Text of the Charter:
Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation.

Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 11: The Palestinians will have three mottoes: national (wataniyya) unity, national (qawmiyya) mobilization, and liberation.

Article 12: The Palestinian people believe in Arab unity. In order to contribute their share toward the attainment of that objective, however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity, and oppose any plan that may dissolve or impair it.

Article 13: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary objectives, the attainment of either of which facilitates the attainment of the other. Thus, Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity; and work toward the realization of one objective proceeds side by side with work toward the realization of the other.

Article 14: The destiny of the Arab nation, and indeed Arab existence itself, depend upon the destiny of the Palestine cause. From this interdependence springs the Arab nation's pursuit of, and striving for, the liberation of Palestine. The people of Palestine play the role of the vanguard in the realization of this sacred (qawmi) goal.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 5:37 am
Now, your homework for today is to find an equivalent CHARTER by Israel calling for the destruction of all Palestinians. Not a quote from one person but a CHARTER.

By the way abdesalam, have you noticed the abuses by your government towards non-Muslims as well as Musims. Morsi paying for the rape of women and some men. The torture of children. Killing Coptic Christians and denying them access to any protection, Muslims even using a mosque to contain Christians for torture. Allowing the very few tourists who turn up to be arrested because the Egyptians can. And how many little girls have been "married" off to the paedophiles in your country as genuine brides or as temporary brides thereby "legalising" prostitution?

When your home is clean then you can cast aspertions even if they are not legitiamte.

It's a shame that you lot really keep using old rubbish to revile a people who actually help you. If you are so anti-Israel then I suggest that you boycott their products and inventions. Except that each of you are too hypocritical to do so. Every time you use a computer or a phone then you are using Israeli technology. If you take medication then the chances are that it is Israeli research that had produced it as well as the operational techniques. Much research has been done specifically to help people with agriculture aimed specifically for the Middle East, Africa and India. How much research has Egypt done for the same reason? - none. When New York suffered Sandy ONLY Israel went to help and Israel was there when the Twin Towers were destroyed by Abdesalam's friends helping to get survivors and bodies from the rubble. The world's most experienced country in such rescue techniques, can't imagine why. I could continue but all of you suffer from selective reading and understanding syndrome. In fact, Kit is such a hypocrite that she condemns rudeness not actually noticing that the only abusive and personally insulting behaviour was from Abdesalam. Says mountains.

Jay S (116)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:30 am
This is the typical Islamist Jew-hating, Israelophobic BS.

Apartheid State? Israel is the only country, surrounded by these hateful Islamist, anti-human rights states that has freedom of religion, including for its large Muslim population. Gay people are treated well, women have rights, children aren't used as shields for cowards shooting off rockets.

The Palestinian occupied areas do not have freedom of religion, speech, conscience or press, which no Muslim ruled and occupied land has. Gay people are tortured, lynched and persecuted, many fleeing to Israel for freedom, along with the few Christians that still hold on in Palestine but are persecuted, but you faux-'Liberals' don't care about these victims of the Palestinian Islamists, do you? The corruption and brutality to their own people. What hypocrisy. Where is your outrage over the brutality from the Palestinian Islamist regimes? Such silence. Which only proves this only about your hatred of Jews, and a self-hating Jew is the ugliest bigot of all, Margaret M and Kit.

What has the newly invented land of 'Palestine' contributed to the betterment of human kind? Israel produces so many scientific, medical and technical advances in far greater numbers that its size would suggest.

Muslims/Islam will not rest until all Jews and Israel are completely exterminated, their merciful Allah commands it:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."
-- Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977

Fatah leader, Abbas Zaki, has repeatedly revealed the duplicity of the PA leaders. On April 9th 2008 he told NBN TV the following: “The PLO has not changed its platform even one iota….The PLO proceeds through phases…..Allah willing we will drive them (Jews) out of all of Palestine.” The following year he revealed on Lebanese TV: “When we say that the settlement should be based upon these (1967) borders, President (Abbas) understands, we understand, and everybody knows, that the greater goal (destruction of Israel) cannot be accomplished in one go. If Israel withdraws from Jerusalem, evacuates the 650,000 settlers and dismantles the wall – what will become of Israel? It will come to an end.” He then cautioned his listeners: “It is not acceptable policy to say that we want to wipe Israel out. Don’t say these things to the world, keep it to yourself.”

‘The Jews have become abhorred and loathed outcasts, because they live off corruption and the plundering of the peoples – not only the Arab and Islamic peoples, but all the peoples of the world. The world has begun to be aware of this corrupting danger, and to applaud Hamas. The entire world says: "Bravo, Hamas, for confronting these people of corruption"...Hamas will receive its means of survival, its arms, and its supporters from where it is least expected, because the hatred for the Jews is on the rise, and people who hate the Jews find no [other] way to fulfill their hatred of the Jews and of the Americans – the Americans too have become abhorred throughout the world, because of their corruption, for they are led by the Jews’ (on: Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad: The Americans and the Jews Are Abhorred Worldwide; The Americans Are Led by the Jews, "Outcasts Who Live Off Corruption and Plundering", MEMRITV, December 14, 2010, Clip No. 2734.)

Well, they certainly have all of you 'skunked' into supporting them, don't they?

Jay S (116)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:49 am
Well, Margaret Mayer(aka Occupy and all the other names you go under), self-hating Jew (or so you claim to be, Jewish at least), you certainly aren't defending the rights of gay people in your beloved terror states of Gaza or the West Bank, we are. You never condemn the tortures, lynchings and persecutions of gays, women, Jews, Baha'is and non-Sunnis - we do.

You dare speak about the LGBT community when you are a big supporter of one its worst persecutors? What a hateful, sad little person you are. We have been fighting for human and civil rights for all people our whole lives, and you fight to defend and promote one of their worst abusers, and to destroy the only country in the whole region that makes any effort to uphold them. What a hypocrite you are.

Why don't you and you other women here go spend time in your beloved Palestinian paradise and see how you are treated, and how your sisters are treated, as well as other groups. Then spend time in Israel and feel the difference. No country is perfect, including Canada, Germany and the USofA.

Your defense of the Palestinian dictatorships is blatant patronization of people you believe are inferior in your hearts. You criticize Israel because you expect them to be better, you don't expect that from Arabs/Muslims, do you? Why lower the bar for civilized behavior for them? Because you don't really believe they are capable, so, in your fake Liberal delusions you pander to them and appease them. Well, we do believe they are capable and should be held accountable to live up to modern standards of human rights and freedoms.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:54 am
Still waiting for the Israeli Charter calling for the destruction of all Palestinians.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:57 am
Now, I note that Jews are not allowed to live in Gaza and their holy shrines have been desecrated although Muslim "holy sites" in Israel are protected (not in the Koran etc).

"Today, 97% of the Arabs living in Judea and Samaria are governed by the Palestinian Authority. In practical terms, they manage their own lives independently. The Palestinian Arabs have a parliament and government, voted in by the Palestinian electorate in elections.

As a new Yesha's booklet prepared for Obama's visit explains, the Arab residents of Judea and Samaria carry an orange identity card with the emblem of the PA on it. They can be issued a Palestinian passport, receive a driver’s license from the Palestinian Ministry of Transportation, send their children to Palestinian-run schools, receive medical treatment from the Palestinian health-care system, be sentenced by or receive legal aid from the PA judicial system, and also acquire building permits in Areas A and B from the Palestinian Housing Ministry.

They lack authority in only two areas: security and foreign affairs, because if granted to the Palestinians, these powers would specifically endanger Israeli civilians."

I would add that these Arabs are being abused by Hezbollah and are not allowed to work for Jews. To compensate them, Hezbollah offer a minimal payment for a few months. Great being a Muslim under your own people - not.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:06 am
Maggot, nothing like ignoring the truth, did you really do any research or did you leap on the Palestinian lies with glee? This proves that the Palestinian authorities really do not want peace.

People please take note, this historical and amazing statement is from the UN Human Rights Council and dated 8 March 2011

Human Rights Council
Sixteenth session
Agenda item 7
Human rights situation in Palestine and other
occupied Arab territories

Written statement* submitted by the World Union for Progressive Judaism (WUPJ), a non-governmental organization on the roster

The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31.

[20 February 2011]
*This written statement is issued, unedited, in the language(s) received from the submitting non-governmental organization(s).


Despite repeated assurances to amend it, the Palestinian National Charter remains unchanged – calling for Israel’s elimination by any military means **

Fatah’s Sixth General Conference (2009) leaves its PLO Charter unchanged since 1968

At Fatah / Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)’s Sixth General Conference (13 August 2009) held in Bethlehem, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud 'Abbas announced the ratification of the movement's amended political plan.

The political plan that was ratified at the 2009 conference refers to Fatah's internal Charter: "The goals, principles, and methods, as they are written in chapter one of the Charter, are the basic point of departure for our movement, and are part of the ideological and political identity of our people. They are also the identity of the movement and its fundamental charter, since they were the basis for the beginning of the Palestinian revolution of our time and for liberation from the imperialist and racist yoke..."

Fatah central committee member ‘Azzam Al-Ahmad declared – after the Conference on 13 August 2009 – that the movement's Charter remains as it was, without any changes.

As described by Hebrew University of Jerusalem Professor Yehoshafat Harkabi forty years ago 6 , the main principles of the PLO’s Charter are:

• In the Palestinian state only Jews who lived in Palestine before 1917 will be recognized as citizens (Article 6):

• Only the Palestinian Arabs possess the right of self­ determination, and the entire country belongs to them (Articles 3 and 21).

• Any solution that does not involve total liberation of the country is rejected. This aim cannot be achieved politically; it can only be accomplished militarily (Articles 9 & 21)

• Warfare against Israel is legal, whereas Israel's self­ defence is illegal (Article 18).

Some key articles from the unchanged National Charter / Covenant of the PLO / Fatah

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit. [This is unclear, as the original 1921 British Mandate included the East Bank of the Jordan river, almost 78% of the total area, which became the Kingdom of Jordan. 7

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion [1917] will be considered Palestinians.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. [Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase]. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their county and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 18: The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defence. Accordingly, the Palestinian people desirous as they are of the friendship of all peoples, look to freedom-loving, justice-loving and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 [UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947] and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the people and to their national right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aimed at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

All promises since 1989 to ‘amend’ the Palestinian National Charter have led nowhere

Many assertions have since been made to imply that the Charter was no longer applicable – firstly in 1989 by Arafat’s use of a French expression: c’est caduc (it’s null and void); again in August 1993 on the insistence of Israel’s Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin; and in the 9 September 1993 letters of mutual recognition. The Palestinian National Council met in Gaza on 24 April 1996 and by a vote of 504 in favour, 54 against and 14 abstentions, it was decided to amend the Charter; this was ‘confirmed’ many times but with no effect. 8

President Clinton declared to the Palestinian National Council in Gaza (14 December 1998)

“I thank you for your rejection—fully, finally and forever—of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo. By revoking them once and for all, you have sent, I say again, a powerful message not to the government, but to the people of Israel. You will touch people on the street there. You will reach their hearts there.

Like President Clinton, Israel and the Likud party now formally agreed that the objectionable clauses of the charter had been abrogated – in official statements and statements by then Prime Minister Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Sharon, Defense Minister Mordechai and Trade and Industry Minister Sharansky. The official Israeli objections to the Charter disappeared thereafter from lists of Palestinian violations of agreements and the international legal controversy ended.

Despite President Clinton's optimism, the events of 1998 did not entirely resolve the controversy over the Charter. A June 1999 report by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information on the status of the Charter made no mention of the 1998 events and leading Palestinians continue to state that the Charter has not yet been amended.” 9

This was confirmed after the August 2009 Sixth General Conference by Fatah central committee member 'Azzam Al-Ahmad, when he declared (as mentioned above, cf. note 3) that “the movement's charter remains as it was, without any changes.” He recently resigned.

This clear confirmation would explain why the Palestinian Authority refuses to recognise the ‘term’ and the historic reality of a “Jewish State of Israel” – in less than 20% of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people (cf. note 5), thereby refusing Israel’s international legitimacy.

The World Union for Progressive Judaism appeals to the 16th session of the Human Rights Council (under its agenda item 7: ‘Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories’) to set up a Special Committee to examine this intractable situation, which indicates the basic reasons why the 1968 Palestinian National Charter / Covenant – calling for the destruction of Israel and the massive exodus of 99% of all Jews from about 17% of their ancestral homeland (the State of Israel today) has still not been amended – despite official promises to that effect since the 1990s. 10 The committee could also examine the “genocidal Hamas Charter” of 18 August 1988 to which we have referred since February 1989 at the Commission, in vain. With these two Palestinian Charters remaining valid, peace negotiations and a two state solution will remain illusions.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:15 am
Still waiting for the comments on International Law as laid down by both the League of Nations and the United Nations where land granted to a country to exist belongs to them despite a war and occupation. In other words, when Israel came into existence according to the internationally recognised British Mandate, Gaza belonged to it as did Judea and Samaria and Trans Jordan had already been given to the Arabs under the same Mandate. Prior to Israel coming into being all Arabs had refused any land therein so had no legal or moral right to any land within Israel.

Does anyone want to contradict international law?

Bear in mind that Israel would have been entitled to occupy Egypt after they had defeated it in the 1950s but have been the only country to obey the UN Secretary and withdrawn.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:26 am
Media Ignore Palestinian Talk of No Jews Allowed in Palestinian State

As attention has turned to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the Palestinian Authority planning to seek recognition for a Palestinian state by the United Natinos on Friday, the media have almost universally ignored last week's prediction by Maen Areikat, the Palestine Liberation Organization envoy to the United States, that Israelis - presumably referring to Israeli Jews rather than Israeli Arabs - would be removed from such a Palestinian state.

And, although the allegedly moderate Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has a history of being even more direct in declaring that not a single Jew would be allowed to live in a Palestinian state - not even Jews from other countries serving as part of a hypothetical NATO peacekeeping force - a small number of the media outlets that bothered to pay attention to the issue at all have naively allowed Areikat to dubiously backtrack and claim that Jews would indeed be welcome in such a Palestinian state. But Areikat himself last year in an interview with Tablet magazine had more explicitly than last week argued that Jews should be removed.

The USA Today article, "PLO Ambassador Says Palestinian State Should be Free of Jews," gave attention to Areikat's original statement: " quoted him last week as declaring to a group of reporters: "After the experience of the last 44 years of military occupation and all the conflict and friction, I think it would be in the best interest of the two people to be separated."

As noted by Commentary Magazine , when Areikat tried to backtrack, Politico gullibly used the headline "Palestinian Official: Jews Welcome"in a report which focused on the Palestinian Authority's attempts to send the opposite message that Jews would in reality be welcome. Politico's report ignored Areikat's history of making similar comments - not to mention the more blatant statements of President Abbas - and allowed the Palestinian official to claim that he was taking out of context by USA Today.

Also noted by Commentary Magazine was that Think Progress tried to downplay Areikat's remarks.The left-wing blog conceded that Areikat's words were "troubling," but, without noting that President Abbas has made similar comments, went on to accuse "neocons" of hypocrisy for highlighting the controversial remarks.

Additionally, the pro-Israel group CAMERA noted that the Washington Post and the New York Times ignored the story.

CAMERA also observed that the left-leaning Israeli publication "Ha'aretz" chose a headline that downplayed the provocative nature of Areikat's original pronouncement by instead highlighting his claim that Jews would be welcome by the Palestinian state.

But Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has repeatedly made public statements declaring that Jews or Israelis would not be allowed in a Palestinian state. For example, in one installment of the "Jerusalem Post" column "Another Tack," titled "No Jews in Judea," columnist Sarah Honig recounted:

He was most specific on July 28, 2010, when, in an uber-compromising mood, he intoned: "I'm willing to agree to a thrid party that would supervise the [possible future Israeli-Palestinian] agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land."

She also noted that, in December 2010, he declared, "I will never allow a single Israeli to live among us on Palestinian land."

Returning to Areikat, as noted in the "The Warped Mirror," blog item, titled "The 'Judenrein' State of Palestine," he previously was very direct in arguing that Jews living inside the jurisdiction of a Palestinian state should be removed in an October 2010 interview with Tablet magazine:

NAEM AREIKAT, PALESTINIAN ENVOY TO U.S.: What we are saying is the following: We need to separate. We have to separate. We are on a forced marriage. We need to divorce. After we divorce and everybody takes a period of time to recoup, rebound, whatever you want to call it, we may consider dating again.

INTERVIEWER: So you think it would be necessary to first transfer and remove every Jew-

AREIKAT: Absolutely. No, I'm not saying to transfer every Jew. I'm saying to transfer Jews who, after an agreement with Israel, fall under the jurisdiction of a Palestinian state.

INTERVIEWER: Any Jew who is in the borders of Palestine will have to leave?

AREIKAT: Absolutely. I think this is a very necessary step before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know, you have to think of the day after. Such statements by public officials are consistent with the rhetoric and indoctrination in Palestinian state-run media outlets and schools.

In the report, "Promoting Violence and Terror," Palestinian Media Watch documents the Palestinian Authority tendency to promote hatred for and violence against Jews in its institutions. The group has also looked at indoctrination of Palestinian children using school books. The "Jerusalem Post" article, "Israel Absent or Only Negative Influence in Palestinian Authority Textbooks," also details some of the anti-Jew indoctrination that is being taught to Palestinian children. And a documentary on the Palestinian Authority's state-run television recently recounted plans to demolish Jewish holy sites in a Palestinian state.
As for the views of the Palestinian pubilc which could also influence the actions of their leaders, a survey conducted by pollster Stanley Greenberg this past July, as recounted in the Jerusalem Post article, "6 in 10 Palestinians Reject 2-State Solution, Survey Finds," documents the substantial anti-Semitic sentiment within the population. According to the "Jerusalem Post": Seventy-two percent backed denying the thousands of years of Jewish history in Jerusalem, 62 percent supported kidnapping IDF soldiers and holding them hostage, and 53 percent were in favor of teaching songs about hating Jews in Palestinian schools. When given a quote from the Hamas Charter about the need for battalions from the Arab and Islamic world to defeat the Jews, 80 percent agreed. Seventy-three percent agreed with a quote from the charter (and a hadith, or tradition ascribed to the prophet Muhammad) about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones and trees. And last April, a poll conducted by Hebrew University found that one-third of Palestinians approved of the massacre of a Jewish couple and their three children in the West Bank.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:28 am
Abbas’ Palestine: No Jews Allowed

“So now here is the question” Netanyahu cleverly asked in his masterly address to the US Congress. “If the benefits of peace with the Palestinians are so clear, why has peace eluded us?” Netanyahu’s answer to his own rhetorical question was correct: the Palestinian leadership has always refused, and continues to refuse, to sign a peace agreement that entails the acceptance and permanence of the Jewish state, regardless of its borders. Hence the PA’s rejection of the offers by Ehud Barack (in 2000) and by Ehud Olmert (in 2008) to establish a Palestinian state on virtually the entire West Bank and Gaza. Arafat and Abbas said no, because they were asked to abandon the fantasy of invading Israel with the descendants of the 1948 Arab refugees, because they refused to recognize the Jewish past of the Temple Mount, and because they would not commit to ending the conflict after reaching statehood.

So then here is another question. If Abbas refused to establish a Palestinian state within borders that were practically identical to the 1949 armistice lines, why would he accept to establish a Palestinian state on a smaller territory in order for Israel to have defensible borders? Those who claim that Israel will eventually achieve peace by keeping offering the Palestinians what they’ve rejected many times are a lively example of Einstein’s definition of insanity (“doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”). And those who expect the Palestinians to agree to a downgraded version of what they rejected in the past somehow reenact the famous spat between Winston Churchill and Lady Astor (“Winston, if you were my husband, I’d poison your tea … Nancy, if I were your husband, I would drink it”).

A standard answer to this question is that all Israel needs to do in order to achieve peace with the Palestinians is to withdraw to “the 1967 border.” There never was such a border. What existed between 1949 and 1967 was an armistice line specifically defined as “temporary” in the Rhodes Agreements upon Jordan’s insistence. This line was not a border and never was meant to become one. UN Security Council Resolution 242 was specifically worded so as not to convert the armistice line into a border. There is no legal basis for “demanding” an Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice line. But besides legality, claiming that withdrawing to those lines will produce peace with the Palestinians defies logics. There was no peace before 1967, so why would rewinding history back to 1967 bring a peace that didn’t exist then?

The reason why Israel was able to extract a peace agreement (though no real peace) from Sadat by withdrawing from Sinai is that all Sadat wanted was Sinai (and, incidentally, the American financial largess that came with it). If all the Palestinians wanted were the West Bank and Gaza, the “rewind to 1967” formula would work with them as well. But since what they want is all of Palestine, previous attempts to bring them to sign a peace agreement by settling for the pre-1967 setting have failed. The PA teaches Palestinian children that Jaffa and Haifa will eventually be liberated from the Zionist invaders and that the only purpose of signing agreements with the infidels is to achieve the ultimate goal of “liberating” all of Palestine. The message is getting through. A poll conducted by Stanley Greenberg in November 2010 reveals that 60% of Palestinians see in the two-state solution a mere step to replace Israel with an exclusively Arab state.

The claim that the Palestinians have abandoned their goal of “liberating” all of Palestine ignores what they themselves keep saying (though, admittedly, in Arabic). On May 28, Mahmud Abbas declared in Doha that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, that he will never give up on the “right of return,” and that the future Palestinian state will be “clean” (or “empty,” depending on the translation) of any Israeli presence (including civilians). In such a scenario, the State of Israel would lose its Jewish majority, while the Palestinian state will be “clean” of any Jew. Jews would become a minority between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and they would be ruled by the Arab majority. If Abbas is so clear about his true intentions, and if he is so explicit about them, why is it so hard to believe him?

What would the world’s reaction be if Netanyahu declared that the State of Israel should be “clean” of any Arab? A two-state solution does not exclude the presence of minorities on both sides. India was partitioned in 1947, but there are Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan. This is what Netanyahu meant in his speech to Congress when he said that “in any real peace agreement that ends the conflict, some settlements will end up beyond Israel’s borders.” Contrary to what The Economist mistakenly (or mischievously) wrote, this doesn’t mean that some Jewish towns would “by implication, have to be removed” (“You can’t make everyone happy,” The Economist, May 26). It means that in a true peace there should be a Jewish minority in the Palestinian state, the same way that there is an Arab minority in the Jewish state. Either the Palestinian state is willing to tolerate a Jewish minority with equal civil rights similar to the ones enjoyed by Arabs in the State of Israel, or it is committed to ethnic cleansing. In that case, there should be a mutual population transfer, as suggested back in 1937 by the Peel Commission, between the two states.

Accepting the principle that there should be an Arab minority in the Jewish state but no Jewish minority in the Palestinian state would set an unprecedented double-standard; it would absolve the Palestinians for their intolerance towards minorities; and it would implicitly endorse the idea that the Arabs have stronger rights than the Jews over a land that both peoples claim to be theirs.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:36 am
Maggot, I havealready told you that you are not worth the time or energy it would take to post anything on your uni's website and a waste of pixels.

But then I wasn't the one implying how wonderful I was as a member of the faculty, which you aren't, but a receptionist, slight difference in type and level of employment. I suppose you are now using the excuse of going to work (which you won't be on Easter Monday) to try & hide.

Carola May (20)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:39 am
So you all will applaud the end of Israel as this bigoted article states? What do you think will take its place? The Jews will be exiled from their homeland - again - but that shouldn't bother any of you, should it? The light will go out and it will become another Islamist hate state of oppression, tyranny, bigotry, superstition and brutality, just like Gaza and so much of the Islam-occupied world is right now. How can any right-thinking person ever support such stupidity?

Where will all those unwanted Jews go? To Egypt, Abdessalem, where Jews have already been ethnically cleansed and the original Egyptians, the Coptic Christians, are being ethnically cleansed right now? Germany, Angelika? Sweden, where Jews are now being driven out again, just like in the Nazi 1930s by the Muslim immigrants and the Swedes just turn away, like so many did with the Nazi persecution of the Jews? Oops! Can't talk about Muslim/Islamic hate - that is 'Islamophobia'! They hate and persecute Jews, Christians, Buddhists, gays, human rights, freedoms of all kinds, but that doesn't matter, does it? What a bunch of willfully blind bigots.

l L (1)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:45 am
what has happened here? Where are the human peacemakers?

l L (1)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:10 am
D.. I am having major technical difficulties today.. I write to post and it won't post. And I get kicked off. However check your cards. If I can no longer reach you.. Have a great life it has been nice knowing you. Lyn

Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:20 am

I didn't see anyone say they wanted an END to Israel. Though the same "stuff" is posted over and over. I don't see any thing new here. Stale arguments by Islamophobes, those who do want an END to the Palestinian people, repeating the same old things. Folks, like it or not two different cultures do live on and in the same tiny bit of land. It may be too late for a 2 state solution, which is unfortunate because that would have given each the opportunity to find a mutual ground. As it is, within no less than 50 years, this will no longer be a Jewish state, which by it's label is de facto not democratic.

I don't live there, neither do most who post here, but they take a contrarian stand because they believe that is supportive of religious views. If one removes the religiosity from the debate, we have something similar to the United States before the Civil Rights Act. One group that considers itself superior and free to trample the rights of the other. Any time we have one group of people that feel free to treat others as inferior, that system is doomed to failure.

War makes money, it's as simple as that. Any country that makes war with the excuse of being under constant threat and has the support of billions in cash and war supplies from the United States will continue to follow that policy. I don't believe (a recent election results showed) that most Israelis want this endless war. Governments want war, people as individuals long for peace.

Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:23 am

Can people not debate as civil humans that simply disagree? Why is it necessary to use attacks simply because someone take an opposite view from your own?


Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:31 am
@Occupy Two, no you're wrong no matter what you think or say Israel has done that you don't agree with or don't like..
The FACT is Israel EXISTS.
The FACT is it has existed as a country (google 'developed country') for 65 YEARS.
The FACT is IT WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST as a country, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Absolutely guaranteed. Anyone can think or believe or say anything counter to that, but it doesn't make an ACTUAL difference ince it WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST as a country regardless. It's a democracy and has many other democratic country allies. That's the way it is with democratic countries.

The stuff in that region has been going on for millenia, it has been taken over and lost and controlled by many many, many different peoples many, many, many times.

Abdessala, see if you can get any of your American friends, or any other democratic nation's friends, who vehemently oppose many of the programs, systems, policies of the U.S. or whatever other democratic country they are a citizen of, who 'wouldn't mind' if they woke up tomorrow and there was no more U.S. of A. (or their country).. BIG DIFFERENCE regarding these two things..

If you have, Abdessalam, any 'solution' to anything regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict that has any 'solution' in any part of it the destruction of Israel as a nation, you're 1. deluded and 2. a supporter of extremist radical views.

And don't let others speak for you. It makes it look like you're avoiding directly stating something yourself. One wonders why..

Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:34 am
@Kit, just to clarify something, Abdessala stated "I certainly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist should it commit itself to all UN resolutions regarding this long hanging conflict". Notice the big word 'should it'. Meaning 'if it' does certain things. Otherwise, it shouldn't in other words if it doesn't.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:35 am
Kit, Note that the vile attacks and personal abuse came from Abdeslalm in a previous article and MM in this one. So that means you are criticizing your friends.......


Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:40 am
And 'OccupyTwo' S. Africa is still a country today, no matter it's sordid history or U.N. violations. It has not been destroyed or 'doesn't exist' anymore.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:41 am
Kit, Islam wants to destroy Israel and Jews. Hamas & the PA also make it clear. Whilst I may not agree with Israel in everything that it does, I WANT IT TO EXIST unlike you and your anti-Semites despite anything that you and they may say, the sentiments have been made clear over time.

Religious War
"Our war with the descendants of the apes and pigs (i.e., Jews) is a war of religion and faith. Long Live Fatah!”

This statement was made by the moderator at a Fatah event, and it highlights a dangerous trend by the PA and Fatah to define the conflict with Israel as an uncompromising religious war, mandated by Islam.

Indeed, Palestinian society has undergone a major shift towards fundamental Islam. In 2010, more than 98% of Palestinians surveyed said that religion plays an important role in their lives, while less than 1% considered religion not important.” [Ramallah Center for Human Rights Studies (RCHRS)]. 80% of Palestinians approved of hand amputations for theft, in a 2003 poll, while 50% thought this form of punishment should be implemented immediately, and 30% conditioned it on improved judicial conditions. [Bir Zeit Univ. Development Studies Program, Poll No.14, 2003]

An integral part of this Palestinian Islamization is the teaching that Islam is at war with Jews and Israel. Jews are said to be the enemy of Allah, and PA (Fatah) and Hamas religious and academic leaders alike have reiterated on numerous occasions, including as recently as January 2012 by the PA Mufti, the Islamic teaching that the Hour of Resurrection is dependent on the extermination of Jews:

PA Mufti Muhammad Hussein: “Palestine in its entirety is a revolution… continuing today, and until the End of Days. The reliable Hadith… says:
"The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews. The Jew will hide behind stones or trees. Then the stones or trees will call: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'”
[PA TV (Fatah), Jan. 9, 2012]

Thus, the murder of Jews becomes a prerequisite for and fulfillment of the Islamic ideal. In a 2011 poll, (by Israel Project) 73% of Palestinians said they “believe” the Islamic Hadith that preaches it is Islamic destiny to kill Jews wherever they are.

Similarly, the conflict with Israel is presented as a Ribat, an uncompromising Islamic obligation to defend or liberate Islamic holy land. Israel is said to exist on Islamic holy land that must be liberated for Allah.

One result of the PA Islamic teachings is the strong support for suicide terror in defense of Islam. The Washington-based PEW organization found that 68% of Palestinians “often” (31%) or “sometimes” (37%) justify suicide terror against civilians “to defend Islam.” This 68% of Palestinians justifying suicide terror to defend their religion is twice as much support as in any other Muslim country polled, with the nearest being Lebanon, where only 35% in total supported suicide terror in defense of Islam. []

Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:45 am

I know more American Jews that support a two state solution with an end to the war policies, than Jews that support Israel do or die. To not be able to examine this without prejudice, without emotion leaves one backed into a corner that has no out. Take a deep breath, imagine that a country, say the UK, decided that all non-whites were from today forward, would be denied all civil rights. Not a pretty picture, but one that does compare.

It doesn't matter what is in a book, what songs Pat Boone sang or what was done yesterday. What matters is how to move forward, embracing a change. That would begin as rocky road, I grant you that. In short order the "terrorists" would find no foot holds, people would want to protect their neighbors and friends.

I cried when Obama was elected, I lived through the Civil Rights struggle in the United States. My son asked why I had tears. I explained that I could not have imagined the American people electing a black man. His reply was "Why not"? Within one generation - from my experiences to those of my son, attitudes, a way of thinking had dramatically changed. The same can happen in Israel, given the opportunity, people begin to accept others, to embrace differences.

I do not want to see an end to Israel. I enter these frays, to express my longing for peace. I hope to see a government in Israel that is not "hell bent" on ever lasting war. Israel is by far the stronger of the two, they must take the first steps, they must be the leaders, by doing so they will be the leaders the world can admire.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:45 am
@OccupyTwo 'You actually want to support a country's ethnic cleansing..." Not another one. Somebody who's 'argument' entails MAKING UP and CREATING false assumptions about what I think. 'Supporting a country or not supporting a country' is different than wanting the destruction of that country. You are showing little reasoning and differentiation ability.

Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 8:54 am

I could care less what anyone said in past comments. I am addressing this thread.

So you post rhetoric, things you can quickly copy and past and that is why you take a obstinate and uncompromising stand? I have spend my time reading, learning and slowly surrendering my internal hate of any side. There really is not much actual history about this area I have not read. We can use history to find our mistakes from the past or we can use it for a justification for more mistakes.

Either way, something will happen Israel, and that will probably be that Israel will simply be absorbed by the larger population. I hope I'm not around when that day comes. If you actually read history and not grab a convenient bit to post online, you might learn a few things. No state or government has ever been always right.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 10:06 am
Kit, really? Icame onto care2 to support animal rights and help with conservation. I had spent much time working for human rights (unlike you and your friends) and even more since I came on this site. I have come to realise that Islam is the source of the vast majority of the hatred for both Muslims and non-Muslim women, girls and boys as well as anyone who is not a Muslim period. The information is out there and you are obviously ignoring it.

I am fully aware that not all Muslims support this way of life and, as you are aware, have friends who are Muslims as well as collegues. However, that does not stop Jews being targeted by Muslims not does it change the lies and stated intention of death and destruction against Israel and Jews as well as others, you included. Yes, I can and do copy articles to show the pervertion and hatred in Islam, try thereligionofpeace which explains the koran in its true glory. Then read articles of why Islam teaches Muslims to hate Jews, including Abdeslam who talks about the destruction of the Zionist entity and then claims that he has nothing against Israel existing and remember how abusive he was when I was able to prove him wrong, like Margaret.

Try this

The Palestinian Authority (PA) set up its own educational system in 1994, shortly after the Oslo Accords had been signed (in September 1993). Prior to the Six Day War (June 1967), the schools of the West Bank and Gaza Strip used Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks, which the Israeli government censored after achieving sovereignty over those territories, due to the extreme anti-Israel and anti-Jewish language of these texts. However, in 1994 the PA’s new Ministry of Education reintroduced the uncensored Jordanian and Egyptian texts, full of belligerent and anti-Semitic expressions. In response to international criticism, the Ministry undertook the creation of a new set of textbooks, gradually phasing them in from kindergarten through high school, while slowly phasing out the objectionable Jordanian and Egyptian texts.

Much has been written to expose, or to defend, the Palestinian Authority’s new textbooks. Critics accuse the PA of misusing public funds from donor nations to support hate-education; of violating international legal norms with the virulence of that education; of inflicting catastrophic psychological damage on young children; and of preparing the next generation for more hatred, more terrorism, more war. Critics[i] acknowledge that the new textbooks are an improvement over their predecessors. But the books still contain misleading, inaccurate, biased, selective and distorted history; they contain confusing and inaccurate maps that show “Palestine” as all of Israel,[ii] with Israeli cities like Tel Aviv replaced by Arab towns; and they exclude almost all of Jewish history from discussion about the Middle East. This biased education seems to have the goal of raising a generation of Palestinian children who will strive to carry on the terror war if their parents do not achieve victory in their own lifetimes.[iii]

Defensive assessments of these new textbooks assert the polar opposite,[iv] arguing that the new textbooks are fine, that the detractors are misled or misdirected by right-wing Zionist prejudices, and that the PA should be congratulated on the way that its new Education Ministry has handled the difficult job of teaching Palestinian nationhood and history while under siege.

Interestingly, some of these very supportive reports, perhaps inadvertently, validate some of the negative assessments. Professor Nathan Brown, in a generally very positive assessment of the PA textbooks, notes that concepts of civil behavior such as peace, tolerance, and dialogue are important themes, but there is “not a single reference to tolerating Jews or Israelis.” PA textbooks contain lessons that value peace, pluralism, forgiveness, integrity, and tolerance in historical and present-day contexts; but there are “no references…to these values regarding Jews, Judaism, or the state of Israel.” In short, PA textbooks continue to “…do little to support peace and avoid sensitive issues connected with peace.”[v]

The Israel/Palestine Center for Research and information (IPCRI) offers perhaps the most dispassionate, comprehensive and detailed examination of the PA textbooks. On the basis of its in-depth analysis of the entire sequence of textbooks as introduced into classroom use over the past 15 years, the IPCRI studies discern a clear pattern. The PA textbooks started out overtly anti-Israel with skewed and falsified history, incitement to violence, and the exaltation of martyrdom. Over the years they have been moderated, with the most vitriolic hate-teach expunged; but they still reflect some bias and imbalance.

It seems plausible to suggest that the textbooks were cleaned up under international pressure: U.S. threats from to defund the PA, reports such as those coming from the UK’s Taxpayers’ Alliance [vi] urging that no UK money be used to fund “hate education,” and European Union threats to cut aid. But the desire to imprint on the next generation the need to continue the terror war against Israel is still very much alive; and that brings us to two additional aspects of PA education that must be explored.

First, educators acknowledge that much teaching occurs beyond the textbooks and outside of the classroom. Under the leadership of the PA, incitement and hate-teach occur in the classrooms and on TV and radio.

Classroom incitement has been thoroughly documented[vii], as has hate-teach and hate-preach on PA TV and radio, where Jews and Israelis are represented as demonic figures. And the need to wipe Israel off the map is a frequent theme in the eulogies of suicide bombers, martyrs whose deaths in terror attacks intending mass murder endear them to Allah. The goal seems to be to create a seething, raging population of young people far more interested in wiping Israel off the earth’s face than in achieving peaceful coexistence.[viii]

PA and Hamas television and radio promotes these hateful values in programs that are produced for children of all ages, from pre-school through high school. For example, a Hamas weekly program starred a Palestinian version of Mickey Mouse, Farfur, who told children to pray until there was “world leadership under Islamic leadership” and in the meantime to oppose the “oppressive invading Zionist occupation.” The Farfar character was ultimately beaten to death by an enraged Israeli “settler,” and was replaced by an intrepid young bee who conveyed the same message to the preschool viewers. Similar messages are encouraged in the classroom with supplementary material and teacher-guided self-expression that encourage martyrdom and glorify terrorism and terrorists.

So while defenders point out the improvements in the textbooks, they ignore the fact that incitement and hatred and martyrdom are still very much a part of the education process for Palestinian children from early childhood onward.

Second, the role of Hamas in West Bank education is generally unnoticed, but is crucial for an understanding of the impact of PA education on Arab youth. Since 2007 Hamas has shared power with Fatah in the West Bank, and the coalition agreement of 2006 puts Hamas in control of the Ministry of Education. Over the last few years, the Minister of Education has moved Hamas loyalists into key positions in the education system. The Hamas teachers’ union includes some 18,000 teachers in West Bank private and public schools. As of 2011, the latest textbooks clearly demonstrated Hamas influence.[ix]

New textbooks may appear more moderate, but the classroom environment, the old hate-filled textbooks, TV, radio and the Hamas stranglehold on the Education Ministry all promise more Jew-hatred, more Israel-hatred, and endless exhortation to children’s suicidal martyrdom. Hamas uses its own children as political pawns; they are encouraged to participate in violent demonstrations, taught the virtues of mass murder, and exhorted to die a martyr’s death. All this is done in clear violation of the Geneva Convention.

Do the Palestinian Authority textbooks inspire children to mass murder and suicidal martyrdom? The accurate answer right now may be: not as much as they used to. But if Hamas has its way, it will not be long before they do again. Meanwhile, other resources do exactly that, in the Palestinian classroom, media, and society.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 10:11 am
From the House of Lords in the UK

The House of Lords today drew stark attention to the conflict between sharia and UK law, calling the Islamic legal code "wholly incompatible" with human rights legislation.

The remarks came as the Lords considered the case of a woman who, if she was sent back to Lebanon, would be obliged under sharia law to hand over custody of her 12-year-old son to a man who beat her, threw her off a balcony and, on one occasion, attempted to strangle her.

The woman was seeking asylum in the UK to avoid the provisions of sharia law that give fathers or other male family members the exclusive custody of children over seven.

In the most high-profile UK criticism of the family law provisions of sharia law so far, the Lords stated that these provisions breached the mother's rights to family life and the right against discrimination and were severely disruptive to the child.

The comments followed months of debate over the appropriateness of incorporating sharia courts into the UK's legal system.

Such a move has been advocated by figures including the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, and Lord Phillips, the new senior law lord.

The minister for community cohesion, Sadiq Khan, a Muslim, said recently that sharia courts risked entrenching unequal bargaining power between the sexes.

Sharia courts have been delivering judgments in the UK since last year, and currently operate in London, Birmingham, Bradford, Coventry and Manchester, with plans to expand into Scotland.

Formally classified as arbitration tribunals, their decisions are legally binding and can be enforced by county courts and high courts provided that both sides in a case agree to have the matter decided under the sharia system.

One of the most controversial areas in which the network of sharia courts is already operating is family law, including divorce and domestic violence.

Ruling that the woman should not be returned to Lebanon, Lord Hope said "the mutual enjoyment by parent and child of each other's company is a fundamental element of family life".

"The fact is, however, that sharia law as it is applied in Lebanon was created by and for men in a male-dominated society," he added.

"The place of the mother in the life of a child under that system is quite different under that law from that which is guaranteed [by the European convention on human rights] ... it is discriminatory, too, because it denies women custody of their children after they have reached the age of custodial transfer simply because they are women."

Lord Bingham, a former senior law lord, added that, as a result of the provisions, "women are often constrained to remain in abusive marriages for fear of losing their children".

He criticised the provisions of sharia law for automatically giving custody to "a father who has inflicted physical violence and psychological injury on the mother".

Although the court, which ruled 5-1 that the woman and her son should be allowed to remain in the UK, said the case was "exceptional", it is anticipated that the decision will set a precedent for future cases.

The human rights group Liberty, which intervened in the case, said the ruling "upheld basic protections which must be available to us all".

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 10:27 am
From the European Court of Human Rights 2003 Report

Out of the 703 judgments delivered in 2003, I have selected two which, through both their differences and their complementarity, reflect the dual role played by the Court. These are the judgments in the cases of Refah Partisi (the Welfare Party) and Others v. Turkey1 and Jakupovic v. Austria2, which were delivered on 13 and 6 February 2003 respectively.

The first is a unanimous Grand Chamber decision and is one of a series of judgmentsover the past few years in which the Court has sought to define the bases of the democratic system on which the Convention is founded. Thus in 1998, in United Communist Party of Turkey and Others v. Turkey3, the Court found that democracy appeared to be the sole political model contemplated by the Convention and, consequently, the only one that was compatible with it. But this raises the question of what that concept means.

Paradoxically, although most people profess their commitment to democracy, it is in many ways an imprecise notion with an apparent weakness that is capable of causing it to buckle under pressure and even, as history shows, to do away with itself. The reason for this is that, by definition, democracy seeks to satisfy the aspirations of the greatest number.

Such aspirations are, however, often changeable and even contradictory, a factor which in turn leads to a growing number of compromises and increasingly complex mediation,whose impact on the system itself will not always be measurable. The former President of the German Constitutional Court recently noted in this connection that democracy is subjected to constant pressure, as its divergent forces interact to create an unstable equilibrium4. This, undoubtedly, is especially true at times of crisis, when democracy gives
the impression of struggling to meet the rush of challenges posed by globalisation, recession and terrorism.

It is in this domain that the Court, aided by the pan-European consensus provided by the Convention, has a role to play in identifying the constituent elements of democracy and in reminding everyone of the minimum essential requirements of a political system if human rights within the meaning of the Convention are to be protected. It has in the past applied itself to establishing the basic principles of the rule of law, the role of political parties, and the limits on freedom of political expression and parliamentary immunity. In Refah Partisi, it carried out a thorough examination of the relationship between the Convention, democracy, political parties and religion, and found that a sharia-based regime was incompatible with the Convention, in particular, as regards the rules of criminal law and procedure, the place given to women in the legal order and its interference in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.
As I do every year, I will tonight outline some of the main messages which emerge from our case-law over the past year. This year I shall talk about four cases.

The first concerned the dissolution, by the Turkish Constitutional Court, of a political party, the Welfare Party, on the grounds that it wanted to introduce sharia law and a theocratic regime. A Grand Chamber of the Court found unanimously that there had been no violation of Article 11 of the Convention, which protects freedom of association. This case gave the Court the opportunity to conduct an in-depth analysis of the relationship
between the Convention and democracy, political parties, and religion.

In its judgment1, the Court first noted that freedom of thought, of religion, of expression and of association as guaranteed by the Convention could not deprive the authorities of a State in which an association, through its activities, jeopardised that State’s institutions, of the right to protect those institutions. It necessarily followed that a political party whose leaders incited to violence or put forward a policy which failed to respect democracy or which was aimed at the destruction of democracy and the flouting of the rights and
freedoms recognised in a democracy, could not lay claim to the Convention’s protection against penalties imposed on those grounds. Such penalties could even, where there was a sufficiently established and imminent danger for democracy, take the form of preventive intervention.

Noting that the Welfare Party had pledged to set up a regime based on sharia law, the Court found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy as set forth in the Convention. It considered that “sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it”.

According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and humanrights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.

There is no doubt that this judgment is one of the major judgments of the Court in which it endeavours to define the shape and the boundaries of democracy and the rule of law. In the same perspective, I would mention the Court’s decision in Garaudy v. France1. The applicant had challenged, among other things, his conviction for having called into question crimes against humanity, following the publication of a book with strong Holocaust-denial overtones. The Court denied him the protection of Article 10 of the Convention, which protects freedom of expression, on the basis that Article 17 applied. According to the Court, a denial of the reality of clearly established historical facts, such as the Holocaust, was not the same thing as genuine historical research work aimed at establishing the truth. The true purpose of such an approach was to rehabilitate the national socialist regime and by the same token to accuse the victims themselves of having falsified history. Denial of crimes against humanity thus appeared to be one of the most acute forms of racial defamation of Jews and of incitement to racial hatred of Jews. That type of denial or rewriting of history
called into question the values underpinning the fight against racism and anti-Semitism and posed a serious threat to public order. Such acts were incompatible with democracy and human rights, and were plainly intended to achieve objectives of the kind prohibited by Article 17 of the Convention. On the ground that the applicant’s book as a whole displayed clear Holocaust-denial overtones, the Court found it to be contrary to the fundamental values of the Convention, namely justice and peace.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 10:36 am
I'm not really interested in the opinion of Jews in the US, they still believe the UNWRA crap that they have been dishing out for years even when subsequently shown to be lies.

And as for Obama, I know a lot of people who were pleased when he was voted in on his first term who have become extremely disillusioned with him and actively want him out. Obama would have lost had it not been for Sandy!

Not only has he failed on his commitment to wildlife and the environment, he has crapped all over his allies eg the UK with the Falkland Islands who want to stay British and the Argentinians want them for their oil reserves. He has insulted Israel repeatedly and cosied up to his soul mates, the Muslim controlled countries. Obama is also repsonsible for the "Arab Spring" nothing to be proud about as the human rights that did exist under Mubarak have vanished into the distance under the Muslim Brotherhood never to be seen again. What is Obama doing about sanctions to Iran and drawing a line that they should not cross to protect other countries including Israel?

In fact, what right does America have to interfere with any sovereign nation but that has not stopped them from meddling and interfering and causing even worse problems than were there in the first place.

My dislike of Obama is not that he is a black Muslim (& yes there is a lot of proof out there including those out of his own mouth that he was born in Kenya) but that he is working against the US and his policies are bringing it down. One only has to read financial reports from around the world to see that the US$ is no longer wanted and is being dropped as the currency reserve.


Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 10:45 am
And one other comment on Obama, he and his wife are the most disliked President and first lady according to the Secret Service. Remember, how you treat others is how you are. If they behave like that to those who are supposed to protect them with their lives with such disresepct, how do they treat others?

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 11:43 am
Kit, by the way, you are aware that the Palestinian leaders have been offered peace, as I pointed out further back. You may not want to remember but, at Camp David, Arafat was offered some 95% of his requests/demands and Abbas has also been offered peace but he is refusing to negotiate.

Unless the Palestinian leaders accept the peace talks as anything other than political manoevering to look good, then there never will be peace. And none of them will as they would be assasinated.

I asked this question multiple times like a parrot and no one has answered [about] when they say that if we move to the 67 lines things will be OK. Gentlemen, where were we situated in 67? Did we not stand behind the 67 [border] lines? why then was there a war. After 56 the "Kadesh Operation" following torments of 4.5 months in the UN, we behaved like good boys. We evacuated Sinai, we evacuated Sharam El Sheik, Gaza, everything, so? What happened? Why was there a war on the 67 border? So this formula of peace in exchange for land, it sounds pretty, I think people that say it surely believe in it, but it is not true. This isn't what it is about. It is very possible that we will still need to fight in the future, since I don't believe that you can buy peace with territories. You can buy peace when the Arabs, or the Arab leaders will reach the conclusion that we cannot be terminated and they need to live with us ~ Golda Meir


Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 12:13 pm

Actually Gillian no matter what you think, you haven't a clue what I do for human rights. You can attempt slanderous comments but, the truth is you are doing nothing more than again attempting to inflate your own ego.

Kit B (276)
Monday April 1, 2013, 1:38 pm

Thank you, Gillian. I had a hunch but that was just confirmed by your words.
This is what purports to be and 'educated' woman.

Monday April 1, 2013, 10:36 am

My dislike of Obama is not that he is a black Muslim (& yes there is a lot of proof out there including those out of his own mouth that he was born in Kenya)

. (0)
Monday April 1, 2013, 1:38 pm
What a disgrace. Beyond disrespectful. How can people live this way and treat each other in this fashion? So many centuries of this and these actions do nothing to bring it about. TY for the post Abdessalam and Henriette for the fwd

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday April 1, 2013, 1:49 pm
well...well....well . The recruiting operation is now complete . Can't you see the same Hasbara graduates here. In stead of being subjective and well educated regarding the Palestinian question,they just move like drunk people from right to left,from Abessalam to Arafat, to someone called occupy.from Netanyahu to Hamas ,from PLO to Obama and the first lady,then turn around to the US $and go back to 56 then to 67.

Gillian ,the chief of staff,posts PLO charter issued in 1968 and ignores that this charter had been changed before Oslo agreement and that there are 3 letters had been exchanged on this particular occasion in on September 9, 1993 stating that "The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security." One of these letters has been posted here but apparently it disappeared.I think it is time to re post it may be Gillian didn't see it. I'll also post the other two letters : The one sent from Arafat to Norwegian foreigne minister and the third is send from Israel prime minister Rabin to Arafat.

Israel-PLO Recognition
(September 9, 1993)
September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:
The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.
The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators
In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.
Yasser Arafat
The Palestine Liberation Organization

September 9, 1993
His Excellency
Johan Jorgen Holst
Foreign Minister of Norway
Dear Minister Holst,
I would like top confirm to you that, upon the signing of the Declaration of Principles, the PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism, contributing to peace and stability and participating actively in shaping reconstruction, economic development and cooperation.
Yasser Arafat
The Palestine Liberation Organization

September 9, 1993
Yasser Arafat
The Palestinian Liberation Organization
Mr. Chairman,
In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

. (0)
Monday April 1, 2013, 1:58 pm
sorry -meant to say these actions do nothing to bring peace to this embattled region.

Susan L (150)
Monday April 1, 2013, 2:00 pm
This thread has turned into a grim example of cut & paste, confrontational, off topic rhetoric that readers here should find repugnant.

The initial story was about the "skunk spray".... yet some find it an opportunity to drag every other issue into the topic to excuse the HORRIBLE behavior of the "doers". The fact is, is that ALL these actions, regardless of which "side" are revolting, disgusting and wrong! It DOES NOT MATTER which "side" has done the deed. It is simply an excuse to continue with their ways of war. Why do we not read a barrage of condemnation for this specific Israeli "bad deed" instead of a RANT (yes,it is a rant, Gillian) about everything but??? Gillian has 20 extensive tirades that essentially are no more than unrelated cut and paste propaganda and personal opinions about BS that is intended to arouse even more animosity and be as disruptive to this thread as can be encouraged. Also, Gillian, your consistent demeaning & offensive referral of a poster's name, ie:Maggot, only proves your own malicious mindset.

It is no wonder some people fail to see any benefit of established Religions. They ALL have unforgivable actions in past AND present - as do the supporters of such actions. You fanatics are no better than the "side" you defend. At least TRY to keep it civil. Hate is definitely an ugly personality.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday April 1, 2013, 2:08 pm
Gillian writes or actually copies and pasts from somewhere saying " After 56 the "Kadesh Operation" following torments of 4.5 months in the UN, we behaved like good boys. "

Kadesh operation you are talking about just an Anglo french Zionist conspiracy against Egypt. The tripartite aggression planned and executed by Britain,France and the Zionist entity as a reaction to the Nationalization of Suez Canal declared by President Nasser ion July 26,1956. The aggression failed,Britain and France , after their defeat in Port Saeed and their failur to occupy the Suez canal, withdrew their forces from Port Saeed while Israel though it could depend on its lobby in USA but President Eisenhower, though it was an election year, didn't pay attention to the Zionist lobby and UN forced the Zionist entity to withdraw. They were not the " good boys " as you pretend. They were forced to withdraw their forces . Their refusal,if you know,was to lead to a global confrontation between USSR and USA.

Gillian M (218)
Monday April 1, 2013, 2:20 pm
Abdesalam, really, an Egyptian letter from the back end of beyond and one who refused to allow peace whilst robbing those who were not his people! Oh yes, I forgot that most original "Palestinians" were actually Egyptians working for the British.

And as for saying that you accept the right of Israel to exist, you have just proven in your last statement that you don't, you talk about the Zionist entity and not Israel. You are like every other Arab, one statement in English and the hatred of Israel in Arabic.

Now, are you ever going to answer any question put to you or are you going to be abusive because you cannot?

Kit, you have proven your own anti-Semitism through time nor can I be bothered to list what I do to you. I don't need to prove myself to you, those that I work with here know who I am and that is all that concerns me, you don't and neither does your ignorance.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday April 1, 2013, 2:27 pm
Trying to twist facts Gillian says " "Now, I note that Jews are not allowed to live in Gaza"...

This is from the US State Department Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Country Specific Information

"Israeli citizens are currently not permitted to enter Gaza and are generally restricted from traveling to parts of the West Bank under PA control (“Area A”). Contact the Israeli Ministry of Interior or your nearest Israeli embassy or consulate for more information on citizenship and travel restrictions for Israeli citizens."

Also Gillian, while you continually rail against anything Muslim and are continually screaming about "Christian Persecution", why aren't you screaming at the Israel government, for not only do they oppress Palestinian Muslims, they also oppress Palestinian Christians. You conveniently forget that on many occasions.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday April 1, 2013, 3:14 pm
This comment had been posted before and I wonder why did it disappear > I am re posting it with slight changes

Again you demonstrate that you have no interest in peace, but prefer intentional distortion of the historical record and outright lies. It is frightening, although understandable, as who would you be if you don't defend Israel?
Do you want to know more about PNC decision ? If you can read ,understand ,absorb and really want to be educated read this if what I posted before is not enough. I know you will deny every fact about Palestinians. I am re posting this comment for wise people not for you .

New York, NY, April 24, 1996...The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the vote by the Palestine National Council (PNC) to revoke the clauses in the Palestinian National Charter which call for Israel's destruction.

David H. Strassler, ADL National Chairman, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

We are pleased that Chairman Yasir Arafat has fulfilled the promise he made to the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in September 1993 to revoke the anti-Israel clauses in the Palestinian National Charter.

Israel and its friends around the world have long considered the removal of these egregious clauses as an important demonstration of Chairman Arafat's and the PNC's commitment to reconciliation with the State of Israel and were extremely concerned by the delay in convening this historic vote.

After this overwhelming vote by the PNC in favor of peace with Israel, we look forward to continued demonstrations of goodwill, particularly in actively controlling anti-Israel terrorism.

As we join today to celebrate forty-eight years of Israeli independence, we reaffirm Israel's right to live in peace and security.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

From one of your favourite sources, The Jewish Virtual Library, Palestinians Revoke Charter (December 14, 1998)

On December 14, 1998, with President Clinton in attendance, the Palestinian Legislative Council meeting in Gaza voted nearly unanimously to revoke portions of the Palestine National Charter calling for Israel's destruction. Following the vote, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the The Palestinian Authority (PA) had fulfilled its obligation under the peace accords.

More than 1,000 Palestinians participated in the meeting, including more than 450 from the PLO's Palestine National Council (PNC). They stood and voted by a show of hands to reaffirm the nullification of clauses in the PLO charter calling for Israel's destruction. Only a few dozen of the members remained seated during the vote.

More than 100 PNC members stayed away, primarily hardline opponents of the peace process who had denounced making any changes to the charter. Similarly, a handful of right-wing Israeli politicians maintained the vote was not conducted according to the PNC's rules for revocation and continued to insist the Charter remained in effect with the offending articles.

Clinton, the first U.S. president to visit Palestinian-ruled territory, hinted at recognition of Palestinian self-determination when he declared: “For the first time in the history of the Palestinians, the Palestinian people and their elected representatives now have a chance to determine their own destiny on their own land.”

Yasser Arafat told Clinton: “We affirm to you that our people support a just peace and will not return to a pre-peace era and we will not be easy with anyone who harms the security of either side.” Yasser Arafat also condemned Israeli settlement activity in East Jerusalem and in the West Bank and Gaza. He also deplored the continued detention of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. While repeating the Palestinian intention to create a state with Jerusalem as its capital, Yasser Arafat omitted previous references to doing so next May, the deadline for a final peace deal under interim accords with Israel. Yasser Arafat went on to reaffirm his determination “to oppose any attempt to threaten the security of the two parties.”

The Israeli government released the following statement following the vote:

PM Netanyahu today expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. The prime minister said that his government would continue to insist with the same firmness on the fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments, so as to ensure the implementation of the agreement and the advancement of the peace process.

As said above, who would you be if the world wasn't failing the Israel, the perpetual victim? It is a shame that you actually will bring up the same pile of crap that has been thoroughly debunked, time and time after time.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday April 1, 2013, 3:26 pm
All my comments are in English. The problem is you are so full of hatred to a degree that sometimes turns you to be blind or unable to understand. If you can read and absorb what you read you will be in a different case.
I wonder Gillian that you still don't know that I only respond to wise people. I am afraid you don't look so.

Tom Edgar (56)
Monday April 1, 2013, 4:05 pm
I am so upset. I posted and nobody, but nobody, wrote and abused ME... Thank you for the "Greenie" though Ab .
Maybe it was because I only posted the truth and didn't resort to personal and religiously motivated approbation.
Oh, and Abdessalam, It is not so much that some, from either side, are so blind, but have no desire to see.

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday April 1, 2013, 4:24 pm
Thank you for posting, Abdessalam. Just further proof that the Israeli gov't is filled with sociopathic bullies. Although I'm not religious, awhile back I signed some petitions and began receiving mailings from American Jewish groups who are in favor of a two-state solution. They continue to send me info occasionally....stating their opposition to Israel's hardline positions. I've heard of some groups of cooperative young Jews and Palestinians who are working together for peace. My conclusion is that the leaders in Israel aren't listening to the majority any more than American politicians are listening to us. Seems to be all about warmongering to feed the Corporate beasts and solidify power.

patrica and edw jones (190)
Monday April 1, 2013, 4:26 pm
Why aren't you busy helping sort out Egypt's problems per se, Abdess? Then your time might earn you merit - instead of your rancid rancorous rantings that go on ad infinitum - billious and hateful in the extreme. At least we can say that Israel has brought much into fruition to benefit ALL mankind, and without Israel in the M.E - there would be no peace. What can we say about the Egyptians- always divided, always at each other's throats.....always wanting to destroy the Antiquities. Destroy and - try - to conquer - that seems to have always been the way of life with you and yours.

Jelica R (144)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:00 pm
Shame on you Gillian, Kenneth, Carola, patrica and edw jones! You pretend to participate in a honest discussion, but you could not even correctly read the name of a distinguish care2 member who posted the news. He is ABDESSALAM; not Abdeslalm, Abdessala, Abdessalem, nor Abdess. Got it? Do you still feel up to the task of serious discussion?

Back to topic: Israeli newspapers first reported that IDF is spraying Palestinians with skunk in summer of 2009 (see HERE, and HERE, and HERE). Hasbara trolls seem to missread the title of this post too, and jumped straight into Islamophobiac diatribes in a desperate attempt to make IDF “smell like roses".

JL A (281)
Monday April 1, 2013, 6:59 pm
Thank you Abdessalam for striving to moderate this thread with respect for people and factual accuracy. I'll just leave a quote that seems fitting:
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't."
Anatole France

Jelica R (144)
Monday April 1, 2013, 7:47 pm
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 3:34 am
Jelica, it says 'Abdessala' as his profile name beside the headline cartoon, and 'Abdessalam' as his profile name beside his other avatars. I called him Abdessalam. Maybe I should say 'shame on you!' and all that tripe. I don't 'pretend to engage in an honest discussion'. I do.
Btw, I'm not concerned with lauding praises to any C2 member. C2 isn't a popularity contest. Besides some people love their ego being stroked. and sometimes the shmooze just flows as thick as thieves among those who on the same side of some issue ex. comments like OccupyTwo's that Abdessalam is 'the most dignified member in C2'. Really? That's YOUR OPINION. Maybe I should make like Jelica and say 'shame, shame, shame on you, OccupyTwo!' and again, all that tripe.

I'm not a fan of others speaking for someone else, in this case, Abdessalam, letting others do so and lauding them for doing it.

Here's a FACT---the NUMBER of people agreeing about something, or WHO agrees about something HAS NOTHING NECESSARILY TO DO WITH TRUTH OR WHETHER THEY'RE RIGHT OR NOT
MORE PEOPLE AGREEING ABOUT SOMETHING THAN LESS PEOPLE AGREEING ABOUT SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT 'MORE TRUE' OR 'MORE RIGHT' Otherwise the planet actually WAS flat in the middle ages because 99% agreed it was..

My only point on this joke of a thread is it's one thing for a gov't. to do oppressive things and another to wish for or push for the destruction of Israel, which has been an established democracy for 65 years. Abdessalam stated Israel's existence was conditional and thus should not exist if certain conditions weren't met according to him.

My entire bottom line question to anyone who 'wouldn't mind' or advocates the destruction of Israel is---Who the hell are you? Who appointed you Chief High God of All Earthly Matters or Which Nation Should or Shouldn't Exist'? 'Who are you to decide what country should or shouldn't exist?

Israel has dirty and bloody hands. And so do the Palestinians. Look up the history of the last couple of millenia in that area. Anybody who tries to say Palestinians are innocent little angels is deluded and a con artist. They would have a personal agenda behind such a lie.

JL A (281)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 6:58 am
Didn't Israel agree to those conditions in 1967 Kenneth? Should countries be held to their agreements or not Kenneth?

When people commenting make disparaging remarks about those who disagree with them, I consider it appropriate for others to counter with positive, affirming remarks. Research tells us it takes 10-20 positives to counter the effects of negative comments on people.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 7:58 am
How many years did US ignore the fact that there is a country named " People's Republic of China " ? How many years did Israel ignore the fact that there is a people called Palestinians and that there is a resistance movement called " Palestinian Liberation Organization ? How many years have Palestinians been negotiating with Israel ? Can Israel just show a map of Israel and put it on the table ? Israel is ready to start negotiations that will never come to an end. During these limitless negotiations Israel will continue to expand may be to the edge of the world. Israel is not interested in negotiations in terms of finding a solution and putting an end to the occupation, No. It is just a chance to beautify its image while continuing stealing Palestinians land and building settlements for Zionist . No wonder then that its existence as a state depends on it behavior and commitment to its obligations to the international community as represented in UN. Remember ..... Just remember that Crusaders came to this part of the world , killed thousands of people,established monarchy s and thought they were the strongest in the world that time but were forced to leave. Read history...... It is amazing how it repeats itself !!!!

elderberry C (47)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 12:28 pm
Thanks for the post. Just one of many despicable zio destructions and abuses. Yuck.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 1:52 pm

Israel's New Generation of Racists

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 3:06 pm
W'll see.

JL A (281)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 6:37 pm
Skunk (weapon)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Skunk carrying vehicle, Bil'in

"Skunk" is a malodorant, non-lethal weapon used for crowd control by the Israeli Defense Forces. Deriving its name from the animal of the same name, "Skunk" is dispersed as a form of mist, fired from a water cannon, which leaves a terrible odor of rot or sewage on whatever it touches. It does not wash off easily and is said to linger on clothes for up to five years.[1] First attempts at developing a scent-based form of crowd control began in Israel in 2004; Skunk was first used for crowd control in September 2008.

According to David Ben Harosh, head of technological development for the Israeli police, the recipe is based entirely on natural organic ingredients, including yeast and baking powder, does not include any harmful materials, and may even be ingested without causing harm. The inventors plan to market Skunk to other forces worldwide. The development of Skunk followed numerous accusations against Israeli forces that they often employ disproportionate force in clashes with Palestinian protestors (e.g. using rubber bullets or tear gas), which has led them to seek new, non-lethal but effective methods of crowd control.
Skunk in action against demonstrators in Bil'in

^ "Israel develops 'skunk bomb' for riot control situations", Haaretz, 18/9/2004

External links

Israel cops try common scents crowd control - Daily News (New York) article by BY Matthew Kalman, September 7, 2008
New Israeli weapon kicks up stink - BBC article by Wyre Davies, 2 October 2008.
Israel Unleashes First 'Skunk Bomb' - Wired article by David Hambling, September 21, 2008

Food for thought: what if US police used this tactic with animal rights protestors at a factory farm? would people believe the practice was acceptable or not? Why do the identities of perpetrators and victims affect whether the act is considered heinous or not>

Jelica R (144)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 8:14 pm
Kenneth, Tuesday April 2, 2013, 3:34 am:

Can you explain why is this a "joke of a thread" as you put it?

Your "Israel, ... an established democracy for 65 years" has a history of well documented genocide against Palestinians. Here is how Gideon Polya described it:
""... 2 million Palestinians violently killed (0.1 million) or killed by violently-imposed deprivation (1.9 million) since 1936; 7 million refugees; of 12 million Palestinians, 6 million are forbidden to even step foot in their own country, over 4 million are held hostage with zero human rights under Israeli guns in the Gaza Concentration Camp (1.6 million) or in ever-dwindling West Bank Bantustans, (2.5 million), and 1.6 million live as Third Class citizens as Israeli Palestinians under Nazi-style Apartheid Israeli race laws; and 90% of Palestine has now been ethnically cleansed of Indigenous inhabitants."
... and
"Thus of 12 million Palestinians, 6 million are forbidden to even step foot in Palestine and only about 13% can vote (when adults) for the government ruling all of Palestine, albeit as Third Class citizens under race-based, Nazi-style, Apartheid Israeli race-laws."

Stellar democracy, indeed!

Kenneth, you stated "I don't 'pretend to engage in an honest discussion'. I do." Good for you, Kenneth! Now, who "advocates the destruction of Israel" (your words, Kenneth)? Please, do point a single line on this thread which advocates the destruction of Israel or some evil to Jewish people. It is easy to back up your words with arguments in a honest discussion, isn't it?

Past Member (0)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 8:20 pm
Very sad. I'm just glad i don't live there.

Jelica R (144)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 9:05 pm
Lee: "Someone told me that she asked Abd to translate some videos in Arabic..."

"Someone" Lee? You surely would not mind giving her name here. After all, you have demonstrated no restraint pouring Abd (Abdessalam? *sigh*) with abundance of insults from your vocabulary. Also, a link to the alleged mail is advisable, to prove that this is not just a blatant lie and there is a trace of substance in your rant.

Alexander Werner (53)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 10:42 pm
Wow, Egyptians are talking about someone else being Racists?

The citizen of a country taken over by probably the most hateful and militant government, known today - the Muslim Brotherhood, suppressing freedoms of their our people and trying to attack its neighbors speak out for others, protecting their people from the very same Islamists who are in power in Egypt?

The citizen of bankrupt Egypt, where Islamists brought nothing except for troubles and human grief, are worrying about Israel, where economy is advancing and whose contribution to the world progress by far exceeds Jihad and oil, are worried about its survival?

Come on people, any crazy views must have their limits.

Alexander Werner (53)
Tuesday April 2, 2013, 10:51 pm
Jelica, which "genocide" Israel did against Arabs exactly?

I just got back from my vacation in Israel, and I saw both Arabs and Jews living and working together. BTW, many Arabs I talked to expressed outrage at various Arab and Iranian leaders, for being such chauvinist and extremists. You have no clues what the life in Israel is like.

Israeli Arabs are doing much better, than Arabs living in many, if not all, Arab countries. Unless they are Saudi Sheikhs, Qatari Emirs, and so on. All Arab world is taken by the extremists and Islamic supremacists, making lives of local Christians, Ahmaids, Druze, Ishmaelis a living h*ll. They ran out of Jews long time ago, and scapegoats are still needed.

Arab countries kicked out 900,000 Jews. About 700,000 Arabs left Israel to avoid harm in the face of advancing Arab armies. Of course such traitors should not be ever allowed to stop foot to live next to those whom they wanted to betray and get killed. This is not genocide, Jelica, but common sense.

Mind you, Arab states are not returning large property stolen from the Jews to the legal owners even now.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 2:19 am
Thank you JL A for the valuable information . "Israel develops 'skunk bomb' for riot control situations", Haaretz, 18/9/2004 . What an achievement !!!! Soon Occupy movement will be a target for this Israeli invention,the same way that US police is being trained in Israel on how to deal violently with protesters >.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 7:54 am
Lee H. lost his temper. He writes that I am " a coward . a poseur " He also addresses me at the end of his comment saying " You are a coward. You are a fraud. You are a racist. And you just happen to LOOK like a gentleman in a suit. But you're anything but. Your priorities smell a lot like skunk."

1 - Thank you Lee . Thanks also to the Zionist recruited Hasbara graduates who show screaming insulting any one who tells a fact every time there is a factual story about their Zionist entity.Israelis themselves don't do this. That is why I remembered an English proverb I had read 65 years ago. The proverb says " Don't bark yourself as long as you have a dog " A good proverb, Isn't it ?

2 - The story I have posted here started when the Israeli human rights watchdog B’Tselem published a video showing Israel’s armored tanker trucks fitted with “water canons” [spraying] the foul fluid.
Those who are barking couldn't deny the story because it is coming from an Israeli source. They also couldn't even try to justify it as they used to do on other topics. The only way they found was to start attacking others including myself in a desperate attempt to change the subject and talk about other things like PA or PLO official intend in their charter to destroy Israel. Posting facts about this false allegations made them mad.
Apparently this story was like a mirror they looked at when they read it and discover how ugly they and the Zionist entity are. They blame me for seeing themselves so ugly in the mirror while all what I did was to put the mirror there. That mirror happened to be a unique one : it removes all make up tricks and reflects the real faces . They blame me while they should blame themselves.

3 - I am not a coward Lee. May be you are . If I were I wouldn't have posted this story that made you crazy. I am not a racist either. I am honored to have so many friends on Care2 who belong to different countries including Israel. I respect them all regardless of their origin ,race,color,beliefs or language. I hate racism and will continue fighting racism as long as I am alive.

4 - You say about me " He's not interested in ANYBODY unless he can find fault with Jews " I am afraid you are a LIAR. I have many friends who are Jews or who were born Jews specially here on Care2. I Challenge you to prove that I have ever mentioned Jews in any of my comments here or on any other post.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 9:15 am
5 - You and others who belong to Hasbara graduates like you say that I have never condemned any violation of human rights except in the Zionist entity . That is absolutely another big lie . I was always against human rights violations. I have received 2257 green stars at least 60% of them was because of signing petition pro human rights either in China, Myanmar,Sudan,India,USA,Saudi Arabia, Israel,Iraq,Libya and even my own country . I remember now some stories I posted in this respect :

DAY 209 On Hunger Strike in Israeli Prison Without Charges : FREE SAMER ISSAWI NOW!

President Morsi of Egypt ...Why Mohamed ElGendi Died ? Stop Police Brutality. Take Action

Facebooks's Muslims Denounce Attacks in Name of Islam. TAKE ACTION

The Secret Iraq Files: The Human Cost

Women's Day Is a Day of Solidarity With the Administrative Detainee Hana Al-Shalabi TAKE ACTION

Help Stop Attacks on Civil RIghts Activists

STOP : Another War For the Sake of Israel,ACT NOW

.These are only samples. I post them here not to defend myself because no body, including you and your gang , has a right to question where I stand. I know who I am . Do you know who you are? My father had raised me to be always beside the weak,the poor and the voiceless no matter what happens and I'll continue to do so modestly and proudly . My vocabulary doesn't have these impolite words and sentences but you are a master in ugliness and impoliteness . Did you see who you are. Look again in this mirror. This time it will not show you how ugly you are but you will also smell your reality as you are a bottle filled with Skunk.


Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 11:20 am
Bob Algeron writes " Jelica, which "genocide" Israel did against Arabs exactly? "

I am not going to say something. The one who will speak here is " The General's son" Miko Peled.Do you know who is Miko Peled ?“Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. Miko was born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well-known Zionist family. His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His father, Matti Peled was a young officer in the war of 1948 and a general in the war of 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and the Sinai.

He has credibility, so when he debunks myths that Jews around the world hold with blind loyalty, people listen.

Ethnic Cleansing of Invented People

Ethnic Cleansing of Invented People

By Miko Peled

They were murdered by the Israeli terrorist organization, the IDF, an organization that is supported and funded by the US. One Israeli terrorist shot the invented Tamimi in the head with a tear gas canister, and another Israeli terrorist fired a rocket that murdered the invented Zaalan and his boy Ramadan. Both terrorists were educated and trained by Israel, and armed by the US. The Israeli terrorists are not invented but quite real, and they are safe, protected by the apartheid regime that trained and sent them on their missions, and the Israeli court system will make sure that they are never brought to justice. This is how Israel’s well-oiled ethnic cleansing machine operates.
The Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine is not a thing of the past but an ongoing campaign that is executed by three arms of the State of Israel: The education system, a dedicated bureaucracy and the security forces. The education system is dedicated to indoctrinating and producing soldiers and bureaucrats who will execute and enforce the ethnic cleansing. The bureaucracy is charged with making rules that make life unlivable for Palestinians. Rules that restrict Palestinian access to their lands, and restrict their ability to travel freely to work and school. This same bureaucracy then demands that Palestinians pay for permits to be allowed do these very same basic things that they were denied. The security forces, the most obvious of which is the IDF, are charged with enforcing the restrictions, fighting off the resistance, armed or peaceful, and terrorizing the “invented” people of Palestine.

Since my father was a general and I served as a soldier in the IDF terrorist organization, people often ask me how is it that Israeli children who are raised in a Western style democracy become such monsters once they are in uniform? The detailed answer can be found in my book, The General’s Son due out in February 2012, but the short answer is this: Education – Racism requires a mindset that is fashioned by education. In order to rationalize and justify the ethnic cleansing the Israeli education system portrays Palestinians as culturally inferior, violent and bent on the annihilation of the Jews, and at the same time, void of a true national identity. Palestinian national identity is but a figment of some anti-Semitic imagination.

Israeli children are educated to see the Palestinians as a problem that must be solved and as a threat that must be eliminated. They can go through life, as I did growing up in Jerusalem, without ever meeting a Palestinian child. They know nothing of the life or culture of Palestinians who quite often live only several hundred meters from them.

Palestinians are portrayed as an existential threat through absurd comparisons like that of Yasser Arafat to Hitler, the Palestinians to Nazis, and the Palestinian resistance to Al Qaeda. Since Israeli kids never meet Palestinians what they learn in school, particularly in the school textbooks, is all that they know. In fact it is remarkable that even though they live so close to one another, much if not all of what Israelis know about their Palestinian neighbors comes from high school text books and popular racist stereotypes. Israelis don’t know that Palestinians never had an army, that they do not posses a single tank, a single warship or fighter jet, that they don’t have a single artillery battery and do not in fact pose a military threat at all. According to a new book by Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan, not a single photo of a person who is a Palestinian exists in Israeli textbooks and there are millions of Palestinians in and around Israel. Israelis don’t learn about Palestinian doctors and teachers, engineers and writers. They don’t learn Palestinian poetry or prose and they don’t read the works of Palestinian historians.

At a recent lecture I mentioned the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and someone called out: “What ethnic cleansing?” People are unaware of the ethnic cleansing taking place in Palestine because Israel hides it well and the mainstream media doesn’t care enough to ask. In mainstream peace groups and dialogue groups that discuss Palestine/Israel, a basic Israeli condition is not to bring up issues like the ethnic cleansing because Israel doesn’t like to talk about it.

But for the past 64 years ethnic cleansing of Palestine is what drives the Zionist policies towards Palestinians. All Zionist governments and all Zionist political parties left right and center support the ethnic cleansing. The Israeli judicial system lets the Israeli authorities get away with abuse, theft and murder as long as they are perpetuated against Palestinians. Had these same crimes been committed against Israeli Jews they would have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Zionist supporters like to bring up the fact that on November 29, 1947 the United Nations voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish sate and an Arab state. What is left out of the Zionist story is that within one year of the vote Israeli forces had managed to capture close to 80% of Palestine, destroy close to 500 Palestinian towns and villages, kill scores of unarmed civilians and force the exile of some 800,000 Palestinians.

Then, when the UN passed resolution194 in December of 1948, calling for the refugees to be allowed to return to their homes, Israel proceeded to build cities and towns, parks and highways for the use of Jewish Israelis on Palestinian land. Then the Knesset began passing laws that prohibit the return of the refugees and allow the new state to confiscate their lands.

After the war was over, the Palestinians who remained within the newly created Jewish state were forced to become citizens of a state that despised them and saw them as a “problem” and a “threat.” They were designated as “The Arabs of Israel” a designation that stripped them of a national identity and denied them any rights to the land and provided them very limited rights as citizens. From being the rightful owners of their lands and their country they now existed at the pleasure of the new owner of the land, the state of Israel. Palestinian refugees were forced into concentration camps, conveniently called refugee camps, and those that tried to return were shot. A military unit was created for the purpose of punishing Palestinian refugee who “infiltrated” back into their homeland, now called Israel. It was called Unit 101, the notorious Ariel Sharon led it and it made a name for itself as a murderous gang with a license to kill Palestinians.

So regardless of the myth, now perpetuated by Newt Gingrich among others, that says there was no forced ethnic cleansing, we know today that the creation of Israel was made possible through a systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing, conducted by the Jewish militia, involving massacres, terrorism, and the wholesale looting of an entire nation.

Newt Gingrich, being the history buff that he is, might be interested in a story I mention in my book The General’s Son, about my mother. She was born and raised in Jerusalem and she remembers the homes of Palestinians families in neighborhoods in West Jerusalem. She told me that when she was a child, on Saturday afternoons she would go for walks through these neighborhoods, admiring the beauty of the homes, watching families sit together in their beautiful gardens. In 1948 when the Palestinian families were forced out of West Jerusalem, my mother was offered one of those beautiful, spacious homes but she refused. At age 22, the wife of a young army officer with little means and with two small children, she refused a beautiful spacious home, offered to her completely free because she could not bear the thought of living in the home of a family that was forced out and now lives in a refugee camp. “The coffee was still warm on the tables as the soldiers came in and began the looting” she told me. “Can you imagine how much those families, those mothers must miss their homes.” She would ask and she continued, “I remember seeing the truckloads of loot, taken by the Israeli soldiers from these homes. How were they not ashamed of themselves?” there are thousands upon thousands of homes in cities all over the country that were taken.

Moving forward now to 1967 and the myth that Israel was fighting for its existence as it was attacked by Arab armies from all directions. Much was written about this but nothing is more revealing than the minutes of the meetings of the IDF general staff from June 1967, just prior to the war. According to the generals, one of whom was my father, Matti Peled, not only was there no existential threat but the generals clearly state that the Egyptian army needed at least a year and a half before it would be ready for war and therefore this was an opportune time to attack and destroy it. The army pressured the cabinet to authorize an attack and indeed the cabinet approved an attack against Egypt. The IDF destroyed the Egyptian army and then went on to attack Jordan and Syria. It took the IDF six days and 700 casualties to kill an estimated 15,000 Arab forces, take the West Bank, the Golan Heights and The Sinai Peninsula. One may like to think this was a miracle but it was a well-planned, well-executed attack against countries that had no viable military force. The Israeli army had thus fulfilled its goal of conquering the entire Land of Israel, and the De-Arabizing of Palestine could now proceed into the West Bank and Gaza.

Since the early days of the State of Israel the IDF made it its mission to be the most brutal bully in the region. Today the IDF has one purpose: to conduct an all out war against Palestinians by terrorizing Palestinian civilians, kidnapping children from their homes and using brutal force against protesters. We are reminded of the intensity of IDF cruelty every so often, the latest major display being the three-week bloodbath in Gaza that began on December 27, 2008. Hundreds of tons of bombs were dropped by Israeli pilots on Gaza, followed by a massive invasion of land forces. All this for the purpose of terrorizing a defenseless civilian population that includes 800,000 children.

Now that Israel has been in control of the West Bank for over four decades it had built and invested there heavily. But all of the investment and construction in the West Bank was made to bring Jews into the West Bank. Palestinian lands are being taken at an alarming pace, their homes are destroyed and thousands are incarcerated, while industry, roads, malls, schools and gated communities with swimming pools are being built for Jews only. Water, which is the scarcest resource of all, is controlled and distributed by the Israeli water authority, as follows: Per capita, Israelis receive 300 cubic meters of water per year. In comparison, per capita Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza receive 35-85 cubic meters per year, while the World Health Organization recommends a minimum of 100 cubic meter of water per person per year. But what is even worse is that per capita, Israeli settlers in the West Bank are allocated 1500 cubic meters of water per year. Jews in the West Bank live with green lawns and swimming pools while Palestinians quite often get no water at all. Perhaps invented people have no need for water.

De-Arabizing the history of Palestine is another crucial element of the ethnic cleansing. 1500 years of Arab and Muslim rule and culture in Palestine are trivialized, evidence of its existence is being destroyed and all this is done to make the absurd connection between the ancient Hebrew civilization and today’s Israel. The most glaring example of this today is in Silwan, (Wadi Hilwe) a town adjacent to the Old City of Jerusalem with some 50,000 residents. Israel is expelling families from Silwan and destroying their homes because it claims that king David built a city there some 3000 years ago. Thousands of families will be made homeless so that Israel can build a park to commemorate a king that may or may not have lived 3000 years ago. Not a shred of historical evidence exists that can prove King David ever lived yet Palestinian men, women, children and the elderly along with their schools and mosques, churches and ancient cemeteries and any evidence of their existence must be destroyed and then denied so that Zionist claims to exclusive rights to the land may be substantiated.

Once we connect the dots it is not hard to see that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is only a small part of the Israeli Palestinian issue. The greater issue is the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the Zionist state. The way forward for Israelis and Palestinians alike is to oppose the ethnic cleansing by opposing all its manifestations. This means supporting the movement to boycott, divest and place sanctions on Israel, or BDS for short, it means actively participating in the popular non-violent struggle in Palestine and it means challenging the racist laws that govern Israel by defying them. There has to be a clear and unequivocal call to recognize that the IDF is a terrorist organization and its officers are war criminals. Furthermore, the reprehensible discrimination against Palestinians, whether they live in Israel/Palestine or not, practiced by the security officials at Ben Gurion airport and other points of entry to Israel/Palestine must be challenged. The struggle for a democracy in our shared homeland is no different than the struggle at Tahrir square and can in fact be seen as part of the Arab Spring.


Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 12:51 pm
Thanks Care2 for deleting the inappropriate comments posted on this story > Highly appreciated.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 12:52 pm
Those were comments posted by Lee H.

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 1:37 pm
Abdessalam, the only reason you picked up a quote from some Jewish man is because he tells you what you want to hear. Many Jews make their living off Arab propaganda, OIL $$$ can still make many people talk "the right stuff", so that's not a wonder at all.

Who would heard about Chomski and a bunch of others, were it not for Arab oil $$ spent on them?

If you look at the rate with which Arab population grows in Israel, you will see that all the talk about "Arab genocide" is sheer nonsense and Islamist PR lie. If you look at Arab MK, Arab business people, Arab students and Arab doctors in Israel, like I did, you would admit that "Israeli Apartheid" is another lie.

You, Abdessalam, were indoctrinated from birth, and never had a chance to see things for yourself. You probably still did not get that Muslim Brotherhood is very bad for Egypt. That Egyptians calls for war will lead to your own children killed.

Otherwise, you would be speaking on a different terms.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 2:04 pm

I think it was Bill Maher that said, on one of his recent shows, that AIPAC and the conservatives have done a grave disservice to Israel. They fueled the fires of hate, generated and financially support each war government that Israel has elected. Which in turn backs the Israelis farther into a corner that has no exit.

For some reason, people can and do kick he USA every day, no one rushes in to call them names, or copy and paste a history of the US (which, no one would read). That's fine, we can handle the critique.

I can post about any other country on this globe and the most reaction will be, "hope things get better". At the height of the tragedy of Darfur, those articles barely gained any attention. For a few weeks after Haiti's earthquake all of Care2 talked about that, some said they donated. Then that tragedy became about Israel; we had many articles about how the Israelis were there in Haiti to steal organs. I may not care for the policies of the government of Israel, but that is just plain stupid.

The point being, everyone has an opinion about Israel. Most are rather skilled with copy and paste, and few know when to critique a governmental policy and not the people, be they Israeli or Palestinian.

Contrary to popular belief I do not hate Israel or the people of Israel. When one group of people have power over the other, nothing good comes of that. I did compare this situation in Israel to the US before the Civil Rights movement. It is a solid comparison. Now the comparison could be the treatment of illegal immigrants, undocumented workers, each referring to one group being "less than".

Abdessalam, I thank you for your patience in tolerating so many personal attacks because you posted an item that is nothing more or less than current events.

Jelica R (144)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 5:15 pm
@Bob; Tuesday April 2, 2013, 10:51 pm: "About 700,000 Arabs left Israel to avoid harm in the face of advancing Arab armies." Are you serious???

"Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage, torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, and bombing of civilians, which does not change its moral color when it is committed by our side. The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -- George Orwell

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 6:14 pm
Yes, Jelica, I am serious. What are YOU find surprising? That Arab states started all wars, and now continue to stir hatred by caging their unfortunate Arab brethern in concentration "refugee" camps without civil rights? That the only thing Arab League states have in common is their hatred for Israel? That despite all the talks about Arab Unity and Love, Arab states refuse to sponsor Palestinian Arabs, leaving it to western taxpayers?

You should remind the Orwell saying to Abdessalam, to Kit and if you re-read it yourself, it will cause no harm.

Jelica R (144)
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 9:15 pm
Bob, my dear, if you are convinced that all this is true then please call an emergency immediately! You might have a stroke or something... it is very dangerous, you need a doctor NOW.

Jelica R (144)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 7:39 am
Exactly, Occupy! Those claims were debunked zillion times and Bob could easily find much more about 1967 war, yet he brought that Zionist wet-dream as actual reality. I am very concern about his mental health. I hope he is getting proper care now and will soon be better. Stroke is nothing to sneeze at.

Jelica R (144)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 7:54 am
My previous comment was reply to (now missing) comment posted by Occupy at 4, 2013, 3:44 AM:

@BS Bob

"That Arab states started all wars, and now continue to stir hatred by caging their unfortunate Arab brethern in concentration "refugee" camps without civil rights?"

From Zeev Maoz, Israeli Jew, Professor of Political Science, Director of the International Relations Program, University of California, Davis, Distinguished Fellow, Interdisciplinary Center, Herzliya, Israel. President of the Peace Science Society (International 2007 - 2008), former head of the Graduate School of Government and Policy, Tel-Aviv University, former Head of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies (1994–1997), former Academic Director of the M.A. program of the National Defense College of the IDF (1990–1994), and former Chairman of the Department of Political Science, University of Haifa (1991–1994) stated regarding Israel's Record Regarding War and Israel's Record Regarding Peace.

Israel's Record on War

"Israel's war experience is a story of folly, recklessness and self-made traps. None of Israel's war with the possible exception of the 1948 War of independence was what Israel refers to as a war of necessity. They were all wars of choice or folly."

Israel's Record on Peace

"Israel's decision makers were as reluctant when it came to making peace as they were daring and trigger happy when it making war. The official Israeli decision makers typically did not initiate peace overtures. Most of the peace initiatives in the Arab/Israeli conflict came either from the Arab word, from the international community or from grass roots or informal channels."

In addition, since 1967 is the point at which this conflict and the parameters surrounding it came to exist, how about the admittance of who started the war in 1967 by Israeli leaders, members of the military who participated in that conflict? Are they also friends of the 3rd Reich Allan?

"In November 1956 we had a choice. The reason for going to war then was the need to destroy the fedayeen, who did not represent a danger to the existence of the state." and;

"In June 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches (did) not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (former-PM Menachem Begin:1982 Address to IDF College)

As to 1967, the beginning of the occupation:

“I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on 14 May [1967] would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.” (Yitzhak Rabin, 1068)

“The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.” (Mordehcai Bentov)

“We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six Days War, and we had never thought of such a possibility.” ( General Haim Bar-Lev, 1972)

“There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.” (General Ezer Weizmann,)

“The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.” (General Matetiyahu Peled, 1982)

“Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.” (General Chaim Herzog)

All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, have never been considered in our calculations. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our “defence” against the Egyptian threat. This force was to crush once and for all the Egyptians at the military level and their Soviet masters at the political level. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel’s existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army. (Peled, June 3, 1982)

** why lies hang on while factual comments get deleted, care2?

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 8:12 am
Thank you KIt. Thank you Jelica for your contributions. A long time ago I advised not only Bob A. but also Gillian and company Limited to seek help. I am repeating this advice again as their case is getting worse from post to another.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 8:30 am
Thanks occupy. I read your comment .Facts speak for themselves. I was about to re post your missing comment which disappeared for no justified reason but Jelica thankfully re posted it. The truth will always prevail and no one will silence a fact teller.

Abo r (107)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 8:35 am
I believe Abdessalam , Kit B, Jelica R , not to bother yourself negotiating with those who used to be copying the same words and have no change , they are supporters to the racism Apartheid and killers and it is wasting of time , clearly he wrote was in Israel what was he doing there???? it is a big question and the answer is easy known to all?
What is their feeling if they have a sense of humanity and Insane regarding the killing of MAISSARA ABU HAMDI in the IDF prisons who have CANCER left without any medical care and died while being tied in bed . It is a crime it is killing with no insane feeling .
It is sham on the world wide such a patient to be killed on their eyes.

Alexander Werner (53)
Thursday April 4, 2013, 12:31 pm
Abdessalam, I think you guys, I mean all the Egyptians, are seeking that very help very actively now, thanks to the hateful extremists of Muslim Brotherhood you elected to rule over you. No matter what another Jew of Jelica's choice says, your guy, Nasser, called for the war, and took an act of the war.

It was as stupid of him, as is now of Morsi to call for canceling peace treaty with Israel. Looks like Egyptians did not change and do not learn their lessons form history. May be next time you simply wan't get the Sinai back in exchange for a peace of paper, especially if the brave and honest Sadat was killed soon after, and no such people arose in Egypt since then.

I won't cry about a terrorist who died in jail, because that is where he belongs. He did not have pity on peaceful Israelis, and therefore he should not expect to be left at peace. It's enough that Israelis did not execute him, as US would do long time ago. He was after Israeli lives and, while in jail, cost Israeli taxpayers too much money anyway, and they still treated his cancer. My kudos go to Israel, not to jailed Islamic terrorist.


Kenneth L (314)
Friday April 5, 2013, 4:52 am
Omg, JLA, there's a 'disparaging' bunch of words by Abdessalam! Where's your high and mighty proclamations about people using disparaging remarks now? Nowhere. Double standard. It's also nice and safe for JLA to post tepid blithe little quotes that wouldn't offend a bowl of milk toast, so she has nothing to worry about.

And as I know now, you have used and held against me elsewhere what I have opinionated about Israel's existence here. That's happened about twice in my 5 years in C2 and it was done by a couple of long gone yahoos who followed me around on thread. You did it in messages between us. And also used and held against me that I wasn't 'supportive' of Abdessalam. I don't support someone because you think I should or shouldn't, and I don't say or not say what you think I should or shouldn't You have nothing to do with it. What makes you think you do? You don't.

@Jelica, it's a joke of a thread because it was going along fine, including with my questions to Abdessalam and his response, until MARGARET MAYER ('OccupyTwo') stepped in and answered for him. And she is as fanatically anti-Israel and others are fanatically anti-Islam. And she triggers the clique to come on board and they go at it and it's bonkers from point on.
MM has been kicked out of C2 so many times I've lost track.
And Jelica for a third time, Abdessalam has stated his conditional existence of Israel.

Alexander Werner (53)
Friday April 5, 2013, 7:21 am
Kenneth, Abdessalam waits to see the time when Israel will be gone. I don't think he accepts Israel under any conditions.

Sheryl G (363)
Friday April 5, 2013, 1:46 pm
Much of what is written above by Miko Peled is very similar to what happened to the American Indian and the First Nations people of Canada. It was wrong then it is wrong what is being done to the people in Palestine.


Jelica R (144)
Friday April 5, 2013, 4:51 pm
Well, Kenneth, I can't tell when this thread became a joke for you. You see, there is not a single comment by Margaret or Occupy on this thread.

RE: Margaret -- every her comment was so flagged that there is not a single one left on care2., therefore it is safe to call her whatever you like. And you do it. Only, I can not remember a single case when Margaret stood against the State or people of Israel. I remember that she criticized Israeli Government. If this means that Margaret is "fanatically anti-Israel", as you stated, I disagree (without any intention to discuss it further). Still, I find it cynical to discard when others speak in favour of somebody else; as you clearly stated here several times; while you do not restrain yourself from attacking a person who can not answer because she was ruthlessly persecuted by the mob until she was permanently banned from care2.

Jelica R (144)
Friday April 5, 2013, 5:50 pm
There's a thing regarding "conditional existence of Israel", Kenneth. This expression is imprecise, as it is not clear to what it refers. I doubt that anyone will dispute that Israel has it's people, Government, and territory.

UN Res.181. is all about reciprocity and equal rights for all inhabitants of Mandate Palestine, regardless of ethnicity, religion or any other difference.

"General Provision

The stipulations contained in the Declaration are recognized as fundamental laws of the State and no law, regulation or official action shall conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor shall any law, regulation or official action prevail over them."
"2. International conventions

The State shall be bound by all the international agreements and conventions, both general and special, to which Palestine has become a party. Subject to any right of denunciation provided for therein, such agreements and conventions shall be respected by the State throughout the period for which they were concluded.

Any dispute about the applicability and continued validity of international conventions or treaties signed or adhered to by the mandatory Power on behalf of Palestine shall be referred to the International Court of Justice in accordance with the provisions of the Statute of the Court."

In 1989. the International Court of Justice recognized that all resolutions of the League of Nations and the United Nations are still valid and binding. Thus, no State created on the Mandate Palestine territory can not unilaterally make decisions contrary to the obligations arising from the resolutions of the League of Nations and the United Nations. In this sense, both Israel and Palestine may be referred as "conditional states".

Jelica R (144)
Friday April 5, 2013, 5:58 pm
Bob, I am glad you're well enough to be back. I hope that the treatment will soon lead to your full recovery.

Kenneth L (314)
Saturday April 6, 2013, 12:05 am
Be that as it may Jelica, it's a fact MM has been kicked out of C2 so many times she must have a red tush.. Not just had her posts removed from a thread but kicked out. So unless you want to rag at C2 management as to being morons and dictators or some crapola, put it in a sock.

You're as thick as a brick. I'll have to go back to Abdessalam's original post about it because you're a baby " I certainly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist should it commit itself to all UN resolutions regarding this long hanging conflict". The word SHOULD. Nor has he denied it when asked about it.
I hate when someone comes on a thread and sticks their nose between two other people's communication. Now get out of my face.

Kenneth L (314)
Saturday April 6, 2013, 12:09 am
Oh, and your comments are 'disparaging' like Abdessalam's but he's so 'dignified' yadda yadda yadda lol. JLA is nowhere to condemn either of you for it. Why? Because you are all on the side in this little discussion. And others aren't. Her kindergarten logic is slanted by her prejudices and biases, the same as most people on 2 sides of an issue.

Kenneth L (314)
Saturday April 6, 2013, 12:12 am
'the same side'

Oh and you didn't apologize about being wrong when you criticized me regarding the spelling of Abdessalam's name. Oh the humanity!

Jelica R (144)
Saturday April 6, 2013, 7:51 pm
Loosing temper, Kenneth? Spitting insults and derogatory remarks, while pretending it was you who was attacked while "engaged in a honest discussion"? Insisting that Abdessalam MUST answer to your comment, while you avoid to respond to comments from other participants in this discussion?

Your primadonna pose did not distract me from noticing that you didn't address my comments, except one where I dared to notice your superficiality.

I don't need your permission to comment on this thread or to address you. This is not a private club. You are not entitled to impose any conditions to participants in this discussion. Who do you think you are?

Finally, I most certainly will not apologize to you! My observation was correct. I was polite and didn't use demeaning words. You're the one who profusely used insults. In fact, in your address to me there is nothing but disparagement and overt disdain. And you expect my apology? Really pathetic ...

Kit B (276)
Sunday April 7, 2013, 7:28 pm

I'm a fanatic, Kenneth. I am fanatically in favor of human rights. Whether it is the government of Israel, Sudan, South Africa.Syria and I could go on listing countries, or the United States, I take a stand that all people have a right to human dignity, they have a right to not live in fear. Why should Israel have a country and the Palestinian people not? The answer is not, Hamas, or Hezbollah the problems existed long before either organization formed. The United States and most particularly right wing Christians have done a grave disservice to Israel. No government is always right, and the Israeli government should have been held accountable long ago.

Most people avoid these threads about Israel-v-Palestine.
Who can blame them? No one has a right to call others by such vulgar and disrespectful names. Big deal some think every thing Israel does is just peachy, others think that some pause is needed to look deeper behind the glossy exterior. That a government went to a peaceful village and sprayed skunk oil on the homes of fellow human beings can not be excused. Look up the village of Nabi Saleh. Learn a bit about the people in that village before you just beat your chest about Israel.

Maybe some don't like Margaret, she's a grown woman and can defend herself. I will not take that personal power away from her, by defending her here. Though I do believe she should have a right to speak to any issue she wants. How can this childish behavior of so many that leave comments be condoned? No matter what her intellectual opinions of Israel how does that give people a right to call her a maggot? In what universe, is that okay?

Abdessalam presented us with an article for our information. We are free to read the article and leave a comment. Why does that or his heritage mean that he is a free target to assail with nasty comments?

Susan L (150)
Sunday April 7, 2013, 8:05 pm
I agree with you 100% Kit. The entire point is that equal rights, human rights, etc are all the same and should be respected in all reasonable regards. I guess, unless you specifically name a name, nobody thinks you could possibly mean "them". As Gandhi said, "You can't shake hands with a clenched fist." Some will continue to shake their fist at their neighbor, after neighbors have long moved away.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 8, 2013, 6:14 am
Kit, MM has been repeatedly kicked out of C2. C2 must be awfully wrong and demons of some sort. You can think whatever you wish of MM, and so can anyone else.

And I have never condoned human rights abuses in the slightest about Israel or anyone else. Tell me where I have. The ONLY thing I've attacked on this thread is the idea of Israel's existence being conditional. Period.

@Jelica, I have stated 3X on this thread and told you I have about Abdessalam's conditional existence of Israel, yet you denied it or were too stupid to look for it and I have to then quote you his exact words. You're just annoying.

As for insulting remarks the person you're standing up for has made repeated attacks at various other members as to their being 'mental' or need mental help or therapy. Where's your condemnation there? Nowhere, of course it's just the double standard kindergarten game of stroking those on one side of an issue and condemning those on the other.

In fact, it seems those posts of Abdessalam's have been deleted because they were there and are gone now. And so it goes back and forth from one side to the other and proving nobody is a little angel.


Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 8, 2013, 6:19 am
I mean Abdessalam posts earlier "Thanks Care2 for deleting the inappropriate comments posted on this story > Highly appreciated" yet spme of HIS OWN posts later are deleted by Care2. It's hilarious!

Kenneth L (314)
Monday April 8, 2013, 6:29 am
And at Jelica, I never said you need permission to do anything. I said get out of MY face, but if you don't want to, then I attack back. And ergo I don't need YOUR permission as to the degree I do it with you or anyone else. And you DO stick your nose between what was originally just a nice question and comment of mine to Abdessalam and his response back. You're some third person sticking their nose in between two other people.

JL A (281)
Monday April 8, 2013, 8:40 am
Thank you Kit for your eloquent statement about human rights where the foundation is respectful treatment for all persons. Whether an act violates human rights or not will never be based on who is doing it or victimized by it or whether one agrees or disagrees with either party.

Formal rules of logic will always note an inconsistency between words (support for human rights) and behavior (treating people with disrespect).

Kit B (276)
Monday April 8, 2013, 9:40 am

Kenneth because you assume that Margaret was tossed off of Care2 for insulting others does that mean it's okay for others to react in kind? This is an open forum, if that's the best we can do, then I'm sorry for those who are like minded.

I thought the idea was to share thoughts and ideas about the topic. Not try to beat others into submission.

Jelica R (144)
Monday April 8, 2013, 3:53 pm
"Get of my face!" Kenneth? If you wanted a dialogue, you should have set up your question to Abdessalam in a private correspondence. On an open forum, anyone can step in and respond to any participant. There is not a third part in a DISCUSSION.

Still, I almost regret for "sticking my nose" and smelt out the stench.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:10 am
@JLA, no you equate tepid, milktoast 'logical', safe comments such as yours with the advocacy of human rights. False. That may be part of ONE of the articles of the entire 30. Are using one article to make a generality of 30? Poor logic. And I KNOW full well how insulting you can be, not on a public thread of course, but behind the scenes. So you're not the correct, logical, little saint you PR yourself to be.
And as I asked earlier where are your condemnations of Abdessalam for his attacks on others on this thread as to heir mental health or state of mind or needing 'therapy'? Nowhere, You are silent. You gloss right over that. In fact there no such condemnations by Kit or Jelica either about his remarks either. Why? Because you're on the same side of this issue,
And please don't try to justify why it's ok to do by someone on your side and not okay for the other side. That's grade school.
So you can come after me, doesn't bother me. When I was attacking the anti-Islam clique for a year Kit never chastised me for anything I said there. Double standard? Of course, it all depends on what side someone's on in an issue.

And no Kit I don't ' assume that Margaret was tossed off of Care2 for insulting others does that mean it's okay for others to react in kind?" Again I ask you or Jelica or JLA about not ever mentioning Abdessalam's attacks on others? It's as plain as day. Not an iota or a breath about it. Just going after me. That's alright, doesn't bother me.
And MM has been REPEATEDLY kicked out of C2, not just once for some initial thing she did or said to C2 management.

Shmoozing and allying oneself with others on one side versus another side has been going on forever. And both sides do it.

(btw Jelica, my thing about an apology was 100% sarcasm. You were wrong.)


Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:16 am
Margaret was a smart commentator. She is not a blogger. Every time she posts something she comes with a document or a proof of what she posts. She is a woman who dared to tell the truth and raise her voice . Pro Zionists hate and attack those who uncover the reality about their fascism . If they could stop her for a while from spotting the light on the apartheid state and its crimes against humanity,she will always be present to face them with her knowledge and courage. Cowards will fail to hide the truth.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:21 am
Oh and some people are very skilled at camouflaged, indirect, subtle barbs and attacks against others. I guess they think they're being more clever that way than a direct attack. Intimated hinted, veiled criticisms of others. But maybe that's more cowardly or insidious actually than upfront. Like boxing with a shadow. They craftily make sure they can't be pinpointed as actually 'doing anything wrong'. LOL!.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:26 am
@Abdessalam, oh she was something more than that obviously to C2 management, or maybe she and you think C2 management are pro-zionists? Or anti-human rights? Or suppressors of free speech? Yadda yadda yadda. I do believe you have a whole ton of biases under your blanket Abdessalam. Maybe YOU'RE the coward compared to MM is she's the one who 'had the bravery' to tell C2 what she thinks of them...but you don't. And so it goes around in circles.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:28 am
And now I'm defending C2 management. Lordy lordy, where will it all end. Who's right and who's wrong eh. Mostly depends on viewpoint. That is, how each individual views something..

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:33 am
And again plain as day Abdessalam doesn't even MENTION how he very naughtily, not nicely, some might even view it as vicious, personally attacked others on this thread. Methinks you are extremely crafty Abdessalam. Know when to be silent, know who to use, know who to laud, who to attack, etc. Been done since the beginning of humanity so you're not doing anything new.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:35 am
Kenneth again lost his temper.No country can have a blank cheque. It existence is subject to its behavior as a part of an international community as UN. Unless a country commits itself to UN and its specialized agencies ,it looses its credibility and may be the world's acknowledgement of its existence, It will isolate itself and millions may reconsider its existence.

By the way Kenneth when you say I attacked people ,you are wrong. I was subject to attack by many of pro Zionism and had to defend myself. Why didn't you condemn those who attacked me while you blame JLA? .
I have posted this story. Every body got the news about a new crime by Israel. Now this story is closed. Find yourself another story or post a story by yourself. PERIOD.

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 7:57 am
I am not a coward Kenneth, if I were ,I wouldn't have posted this story in the first place. I am brave enough to tell the truth even if you got crazy at me. All I can say to you is exactly what I told Lee M. in my comment on
Wednesday April 3, 2013, 7:54 am. Thank you for giving me the chance to tell you which I slam teaches me in such cases :

" The true servants of the Most Merciful are those who behave gently and with humility on earth, and whenever the foolish quarrel with them, they reply with [words of] peace."
(al-Furqan 25: 63).
Peace on you Kenneth... peace on you.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 11:10 am

(waving hand in air)

One question: WHY is MM's name being brandied about a conversation to which she is unentitled to enter in order to defend herself (and, as such, should have no bearing on the debate at hand)?



Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 11:19 am

Also, anyone who's been a member of Care2 for a few years also knows that -- just because a member is repeatedly removed -- is NOT an indication of their guilt or membership unworthiness.

There are groups of people here who are aware of the equation that X number of flags = automatic deletion because of spam filters, etc. They regularly, and unethically, use that knowledge to eliminate the remarks of their most intelligent and knowledgeable protagonists.

Now, I won't contribute to any more straying from the actual topic of this thread . . . but it does make one wonder WHO are the cowards, eh?


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 11:28 am

EEK! Pls. substitute the term "protagonist" with "ANTAGONIST."

[I am terrible self-editor . . .]


Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 12:09 pm
No you're wrong Abdessalam. I have not 'lost my temper' a single time on this thread. FALSE.
And in 2013, the planet is essentially a global community. As I said earlier on this thread, since you use UN Violations to justify your conditional existence of Israel, do you think the UN would ever agree with the idea that a 65 yr. old democratic country should not exist because it has UN violations? You are not thinking clearly. Would never happen.
MM, who also obviously supports Israel's conditional existence (from her answer that is gone now), used S. Aftica and it's apartheid as some supposed comparison. S. Africa still exists as a nation and has IMPROVED. The UN didn't put their existence conditional regarding UN violations did it.

And you are debating a moot point anyway. There is NO external entity that could destroy Israel as a nation. NONE. Because in this day and age every democratic nation has democratic allies. And they would not allow any external enemy to destroy Israel. If it occurs within itself, that's different. If Israelis dissolve their country themselves that's different. Your fantasy will have to deal with that reality and work some other to get Israel to stop whatever violations or oppression they engage in.

'if i get crazy at you'. You're not really dealing in reality much are you Abdessalam? I don't 'get crazy' at anyone. LOL!

Myself and Mary P. are very good friends. Know her? I'm sure you do. In fact she told me I had a 'muslim sister' in her. Evidently because she appreciated all the one on one I went with against the anti-Islam clique, for a solid year I might add. Not all Palestinians I daresay would agree with a conditional existence of Israel. Your view about it doesn't speak for all Palestinians I'm sure.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 2:02 pm

Kenneth? (and I am SO reluctant to do this . . . but my own honesty prevents me from avoiding it) . . .

WHAT ON EARTH does your "relationship" with Mary P. (and her previous concurrence with your opinions) have to do with this article???

She is also a Care2 friend to me, Abdessalam, and many others here. Do you think she's the deciding opinion that lends veracity to your own? She hasn't even weighed in here.

This, much like the recurrent references to MM and her past comments, have NOTHING to do with the opinions stated on this particular article.

Please respond in the present tense and address the issues here (instead of the egos).

There are people reading this who are unaware of the past conversations; many of whom are divided about their feelings on this issue. Let's, at least, give them some facts to digest (about the topic, NOT the individuals responding).

[This is becoming too much of a "hen party," disrespectful of undecided readers, expecting that Code of Conduct will be adhered to.]


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 3:20 pm

And SHAME on those of you, who would use terminology like "Maggot" to address fellow Care2 members -- and presume immunity while disrespecting the Code of Conduct you agreed to every single time you logged in.

You prove, through your own disregard of human respect toward others, that you are, in fact, the avatar (not even a person), who should be ignored.


Angelika R (143)
Tuesday April 9, 2013, 4:35 pm
GOOD GOD, what has been going on here...

Abdessalam :"I have posted this story. Every body got the news about a new crime by Israel. Now this story is closed. Find yourself another story or post a story by yourself. PERIOD. "

Ok, I am sacrificying MY POST, it is quite suitable as it takes you from the Skunk directly to an IDF's butt"
You are all invited to drop off your comments there!
IDF Soldier Jailed for Exposing Buttocks to Palestinians in Hebron
Just make sure you ALSO visit my other post, dedicated to yesterdays international Memorial day -I missed all those who usually jump on me and others when they feel it is anti-Israel, -where were they all on this important post? Perhaps they will again accuse me of being anti-Semite for posting that as well?
Apr 8, 2013 MARCH OF THE LIVING International - Watch Live Now

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday April 10, 2013, 6:16 am
@Carole, previously on this thread, in a post which you have no knowledge of evidently since they're all gone, MM used old apartheid issues in S. Africa as a 'reason' for justifying her stance that Israel's existence should be conditional, I brought up Mary P. who is a S. AFRICAN and a friend of mine, who I doubt would like having the same conditional existence placed on HER country because of UN violations.
Other than that You must be creating some other inference about why I brought her up.

"MM and her past comments have nothing to do with this thread"? That's what results from coming this late on a thread, evidently not aware that MM came in very early on this thread, made posts which you evidently have no idea about, since they're all gone, and I have personally am not going to explain all over again what occurred from that point on. I've already explained it in earlier posts of mine. Read them or not to find out.

Is there some kind of a double standard here? It's OK for Abdessalam to make several insults about the mental condition of others and that they need 'therapy' but it's not OK for someone to call someone else a maggot? (those posts of his may be still here or may be gone now, I'm not going to bother looking for them because they WERE here). Neither he nor anyone else on the 'same side' of this issue has condemned him for it, whatsoever, not a breath. But you condemn others on the 'other side' about their insults, and obviously it's because as long as it's against the 'other side' it's OK, fully justified, and let's face it LAUDED AND PRAISED many times by people on the 'same side', and not OK, and dumped on if it's against anyone on 'this side' or 'your side'. Can't put it any clearer than that. Double standard.

I've seen terminology like 'troglodyte' used against the other side elsewhere. You want to compare words or degree of insult? That might get involved.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday April 10, 2013, 6:45 am

Thank you for responding, Kenneth.


Fadi M (37)
Thursday April 18, 2013, 5:28 am
Hello to all the wonderful spirits of truth on this page and to everyone else. I do not wish to get caught in a futile debate with anyone here because I simply do not have the time for it unless it is for the sake of sharing knowledge and growth, not a battle between two egos. So I apologize in advance if I wasn't able to reply back to future comments if time was not on my side.

Before I begin, I'd like to offer a small token of love and friendship to all my fellow Israeli/Zionist propagandists who are full of love, mercy and compassion, some of the characteristics which the state of Israel was founded on:

I honestly find it difficult to digest some silly claims made by some people here about being on C2 for protecting animals and defending their rights, yet they find enough room within their loving, caring and compassionate hearts to attack human rights and condemn those who have different opinions than theirs. They hide behind pictures of animals and fill their profiles up with big words of love and compassion which they do not fully comprehend, and which they have borrowed from other humanitarian people's profiles on C2, pretending to care for the rest of the world and the environment, and depicting themselves as the ambassadors of peace and liberties. YET find it completely legitimate and justifiable to insult, demonize, attack, bash and destroy other human beings simply for having different opinions or for being different.

Well, let me tell you this; you cannot be spiritually partially evolved, or partially enlightened, or half-way compassionate, or somehow humanitarian. You can never be almost caring or somehow loving… Such claims do not fit in the laws of the universe; the oneness and wholeness. I cannot claim to be an animal loving person yet hate cats, love therefore becomes selective and inconsistent the moment my mind had to make a conscious decision about it. Imagine if your heart chose between the days it pumped blood and days it didn't, or if your stomach decided to digest certain kinds of food but not everything you ate! In a similar manner; love has to be love all the time, because when love becomes the dominant force within you all sorts of separation and distinction must collapse. Love and hatred can never coexist, and selective love is not love.

Moreover, if I had to convince myself that I loved something or someone then love is the subject and my mind is the master, whereas if love is master in my life then my mind is no longer in control and therefore my physical nature is ruled by my spiritual nature. I’ll make it very simple; if one had to make a conscious decision as to when, why, how or whom they loved then that is not pure love, because love exists in another dimension that is not subject to the why, when, who, or how. The why, when, who and how are simply part of our physical dimension where another corrupted/divided version of love exists which is called conditional or conscious love. Also if there was any hatred within you (even the tiniest bit of it) then you have not yet escaped the physical dimension into enlightenment and absolute freedom, your mind becomes the very same prison that holds your spirit/soul within. Therefore you continue to feel separated, isolated, frustrated, depressed, insignificant, lonely, fearful, competitive, defensive, judgmental, resentful, wishful, sad and angry. Those are some of the symptoms of the sickness but not the sickness itself, the sickness is called the ego or the self.

If the above seemed like philosophy to you then my words have failed me and I apologize, because it is not philosophy, it is all that was, all that is, and all that ever will be. There is no religion but this, every single enlightened teacher/guru/sage who ever came into our physical dimension spoke of it, because it is all that we need to understand, and without which we will continue to hurt others and ourselves. Jesus Christ, Buddha, Vernon Howard, Sai Baba, Sri Yogendra, Dan Millman, Gandhi, etc., they all spoke of it, yet we struggle to understand this simple wisdom because we use our minds to analyze with, and our minds are limited and finite, and what is finite can never understand what is infinite. Therefore move beyond your mind into your higher-self where you need not struggle to understand, because in that dimension everything flaws effortlessly and without resistance. Therefore be in a state of flow..

I apologize for making this a boring post to some of you, I only hope that those who defend Israel would one day realize that they are standing up against themselves and against their true nature not against anyone else. That they are in continuous resistance and struggle against the truth, and this must be very exhausting and draining to their bodies/energy. Because it is very stressful to stand up against the truth when your non-physical self/spirit knows exactly what the truth is. This is not a matter of historical, religious, cultural or political dispute; it is a matter of choosing love and oneness over hatred and separation, and your higher-self over the physical.

Warm regards and love to all my wonderful friends on this page, and to everyone else.

Sheryl G (363)
Thursday April 18, 2013, 6:34 am
Words have power, whether chosen wisely or not. You have chosen wisely Fadi.
Mitakuye Oyasin.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday May 1, 2013, 6:17 pm
Yes Fadi, interesting video. I suppose you don't think any Palestinian children think and talk and act the same way towards Israelis. The TRUTH is both sides in this do. It's rather trite and self-indulgent to compare 'who is worse than the other' 'which side is worse than the other' 'compared to us, they are the evil ones' 'they are the villain, we are the victim' And then use children on one side to attempt to prove your point.

Your philosophy and spiritual ideas are yours, not necessarily anyone else's. If you are wise you know that you cannot tell anyone else what the spiritual truth is for them. Doesn't work, cannot work. And all you have done here is evaluate for others. Doesn't work, cannot work.

To prove that, just have someone else tell YOU what the 'spiritual truth' is about this and that. All you find yourself doing is agreeing or disagreeing. Agreement and disagreement don't make anything true. They don't enlighten anyone. They're just things people do with other people's ideas.
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