Monday November 2, 2009, 8:22 pm
Speaker Nancy Pelosi is breaking her promise to allow House votes on two single-payer amendments to the House healthcare bill.

One, by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, will allow states to implement single-payer systems. The other, by Rep. Anthony Weiner, would create a national single-payer system.

We need your voice to get these amendments back on the table.

Let's get calls into the democratic leadership that is calling the shots and make sure they know that we expect the vote on single-payer this fall.

-Speaker Nancy Pelosi: DC (202) 225.4965 - SF (415) 556.4862
-Rep. George Miller: DC (202) 225.2095 - Concord (925) 602.1880
-Rep. Henry Waxman: DC (202) 225.3976 - LA (323) 651.1040

The message is simple: Keep the Kucinich Amendment to allow states to pass single-payer, and to allow Rep. Anthony Weiner introduce his single-payer amendment!

Thanks for all that you do,
Healthcare-NOW! National Staff

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:24 pm
The only real public option is single-payer HR 676!
Expanded Medicare for All!
"It's not rocket science and if you cannot understand that, and you are a member of Congress, then get the hell out of Congress!"

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:41 pm
It's a SICK system that profits from the ill health of others....Healthcare should be a service, a right, and not for profit. Unbelievable that so many people are ok with exploitation of their ill health. The ill are patients, not customers, not health consumers.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:51 pm

Thanks for keeping up the good fight, Jill!

Pelosi deserves the Academy Award for her acting skills when announcing the Democratic "victory" for providing health care to "the people" -- in spite of the Republicans. (Since she, basically, helped only the insurance companies, who own both parties.)

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:55 pm
Excellent article Jill. Cuts to the chase.. We got the packets with the signatures for HR 676, Single Payer, off today. As soon as I get a breather I'll share the cover letter with you guys. A gal that works at a government facility that I spoke with today said that the Public Option only works well if you can afford the more expensive program which she and her husband cannot. There lies another problem for the have nots..Single Payer is the only health care program that has a chance in hell of working for all the people in an equitable way. Insurers will never be equitable! ..

This from a friend who lives in Israel with family in Holland...

HEALTHCARE....

Friends - Healthcare is a Must, but it must be done the right way.

Careful the government and insurers will not con you all into something that is worse than no insurance.

Please read: http://www.justlanded.com/english/Netherlands/Netherlands-Guide/Health/Healthcare

I was in Holland for a year (my mom lives there) and after receiving a working permit, I worked there. I continued to pay insurance here in Israel. The insurers came after me, because I refused to pay two different coverings. I am not rich, just working class, regular mojo, so should I support a huge corporate insurance company? Eventually I left without paying..... and I never will. I prefer to go to jail.

Healthinsurance in Holland was great until 2006. The government privatized it, and private insurers are making profits. It changed the system from a human and caring system to a corporate profit based system where people get lost in the system.....

Be careful what they do in the States...... Demand Government interference FOR THE PUBLIC, not that the government sides with the private insurance companies.

The government hypocrites in Holland are shareholders of these insurance companies - they want them to earn them money.... not take care of the people.

Monday November 2, 2009, 9:06 pm
As a small business owner I believe single payer is the only option that I and other small businesses can absorb and still remain in business. The public options will force me out of business. End the policies of world domination, bring our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan home and use the money that will be saved to provide health care for every man, woman and child in this country; with money leftover.

Monday November 2, 2009, 9:30 pm
Yes, yes, yes, no private, no corporations, not for profit is the ONLY way health care should be run. The same for schools, power or electric, gas, or prisons and the military. It is the idea of the "Commons" that we all use and need. The Commons used to be the forest where we could get water, hunt, wood for cooking and heat, and materials to build our houses. Now in the huge cities, we need another kind of Common for our health, education, and welfare.

The materialists call this a "hand out," but real people who work hard and live well but not without economic stress know health care, education, and other essentials are necessary to live. What is the value of life?

Materialism is not the way to measure human beings, unless you are a slaver, a fascist, or a capitalist gone to extremes. Communism dehumanized people too because those in charge with the power became arrogant and superior to the rest of the population. What has happened in Western cultures, especially the U.S. is the same kind of arrogance and superiority.

Added value to our economy used to measured in terms of the labor invested in things we made. Now we consume things by the millions that are sold by corporations that make billions of $$$$$$$$ and that is translated into power over the people. People in sweat shops, people in offices, people in poverty are all slaves to these millionaire slavers that see themselves as better than others and their arrogance takes the form of lobbies and laws to protect the rich and powerful corporate owners, while the rest of us scratch a living from what is left.

Capitalism is great and freed us from feudalism, but when it becomes too big or too much money is centralized, too much power corrupts those who become wealthy. We need to limit the wealth one can earn and redistribute the wealth to provide health care, education, and welfare for all. If people had a better life there would be less crime and if people commit crimes that is a RED FLAG that they need more help, not punishment. Yes, violent crime would deserve a special kind of help or even a prison type of separation from the rest of us, but with the goal of humanizing them, treating them with respect, not warehouse them and make better killers and criminals than when they entered the system.

The measure of any culture or society is in the quality of mercy it shows it's citizens. Materialism and corrupt capitalism is a regression to feudalism with corporate kings and millionaire lords running the world. We have gone backwards from the birth of our nation the U.S., and we need to develop a new strategy that starts with separation of Corporate and State. Health care and other social services have to be done this way or as Jill states, profit or exploitation of the people for more money becomes the goal not people's health.

NOTHING WILL CHANGE if we don't have SINGLE PAYER health care.

Monday November 2, 2009, 9:38 pm
If the leaders "We" have afforded the luxury of excellent health care and other comforts had any common sense and weren't ambassadors of nonsense they would see the hand writing on the wall Ralph. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, Gr$$d rules the roost of many in Washington leaving
them void of compassion or any semblance of decency. I am very angry too as we are a small business and cannot afford health care for the two of US. It would cost in the neighborhood of 800 to 1000 a month. We spoke with some folks from Canada, while getting signatures for HR 676. This particular couple were small biz folks. They said that it costs them $90 a month for full small biz health coverage. They also said that they are very pleased with the Canadian health Care system. I agree with Jill if those who serve cannot cut the mustard they should QUIT! Americans have had enough! No more corporate welfare!

Monday November 2, 2009, 11:06 pm
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Tuesday November 3, 2009, 1:58 am
some great points here! Thanks and passing on!

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 6:16 am
It was bad enough not to know you had any hope under the Bush Administration for the medical care but now to bring the hope factor up to the people and dash it into the ground is sickening.

That is the plot people....the Elites don't want you to be well....in fact they would like more of us to die off. Don't believe it watch the following video another Care2 member posted....copy and paste.

http://www.care2.com/news/member/760164053/1292022

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 7:04 am
I lived that hell for ten (10) years watching my father die from the age of nine (9) just turning ten (10) and it was horrible. Here he was a genus and now he was a vegetable not moving not speaking and we had to move back to the United States and he was working for the United States in Central America to help build the Canal in the Panama, Canal Zone. When we moved here they treated as though we were garbage under their feet the only help he got was the help that I could get him through a friend of mine that was a therapist.
Our family could not get any help from The USA because we were Aerican and not Cuban but the Cubans could get anything they wanted medical, food, and housing we as Americans were on our own trying to get help and no matter where my mother went they refused her even having four children. When I became ill with my appendix and my mother went to the same hospital that all the Cubans went and got free medical my mother went to the same office and they refused to help her because she was American. So she had to go to a loan shark to get the money for my surgery and it took her years and years to pay that loan off so I know what this family is going through not being helped because I lived it and I am still living it everday because my husband are American and can't speak Spanish we are rejected but yet these Cubans have taken over and get whatever they want when they want it without even asking twice and that is a fact.

My heart goes out to this family member that is suffering and watching her Brother-in-law suffering for a reason that should have never happened.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:01 am
I am sick and tired and fed up with the US Government!!!!! They are a bunch of greedy money thiefs!!!!They are not listenining to the PEOPLE the people who voted for them. Or maybe it is the electoral college that is messing things up. We have to demand they listen or revolt Big time!! This is going nowhere fast!! I am mad!!!!!

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:02 am
Thanks Jill and Dandelion!

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:32 am
You are right about single payer Ralph. it IS the only viable option. That is why small businesses and labor unions support HR 676. That isone of the ways it will stimulate the economy and create jobs. Small business owners will be albe to hire more employees or pay their present employees more because they will be saving money with single payer. They wil have to pay a healthcare fee but it will be much smaller than what they pay now in benefits. It will only be businesses of a certain size.
Also, companies that have outsourced have done so not so much because of cheaper salaries but manly because of employee benefits. They don't have to pay them in other countries because they have universal healthcare. It is estimated that a lot of jobs will come back to America when they no longer have to pay benefits and will be able to afford to pay better salaries.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:59 am
The Entire article -
HOGWASH!!! Read the following article folks. It is an attack on Capitalism and the Free Market! The Following article is a Marxist bunch of trash...

Drink it if you like, but call it what it is...

Capitalism and Health Care
Foot in the Door
By STEPHEN FLEISCHMAN

Isn’t it perfectly clear that the uproar over a public option in the health care reform bill now squeezing its way through Congress is about nothing but the foot in the door to socialized medicine and ultimately to other socialized things?

What a break that would be when you look around and see what capitalism hath wrought. While the ice-caps melt, corporate America is making billions on the dooming of the planet.

Capitalism developed out of England’s industrial revolution in the 18th Century. Today, it is a global phenomenon; multi-national monopoly capitalism.

Why have the people of the world let this happen?

The depredations of capitalism were known back in the 18th Century when Karl Marx made it perfectly clear that the system stinks and is only good for the rich and the bourgoisie and the working class gets screwed.

His definitive analysis of capitalism with the publication of his book, “Das Kapital” spilled the beans. Its first volume was published in 1867. His warning goes back even further than that—to 1848 when he wrote “The Communist Manifesto”.

John Molyneux, a British socialist, activist, and interpreter of Marxist theory explains it this way, “Capitalism is a mass of interlocking contradictions. The contradiction between the capitalist class and the working class is rooted in the exploitation that takes place in every capitalist workplace. The fact is capitalism cannot do without the working class; it needs it to produce its profits. And the more capitalism grows and expands, the more it is compelled to increase the size and potential power of its mortal enemy. The bourgeoisie can win battle after battle but it cannot win, or end, the war. The class struggle can end only with the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the abolition of capitalism.”

One of capitalism’s meanest effects—the free market’s assault on the environment—the one resource mankind cannot afford to lose.

A handful of parasites live off the backs of the workers. Every bit of the capitalists' vast wealth is stolen from working people. Workers get paid for only a part of what they produce. The surplus value that they create goes straight into the hands of the capitalists as profits.

A free-market ideology has no regard for human life; capitalist elites and their partners in the White House and Congress, turned the financial sector into a giant Ponzi scheme.

In the insurance industry, so far this year, 142 insurance merger deals have taken place in the U.S., with a total value of $5.3 billion, putting insurance tenth among all industries, according to Mergerstat, the leading provider of merger and acquisition statistics.

The U.S. health system accounts for a higher portion of the gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37th out of 191 countries in its performance, the UN World Health Organization report finds.

The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18th. Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second-placed Italy.

But it seems people still haven’t gotten it.

Since the era of Ronald Reagan, 40th president of the United States, (1981-1989), the labor movement in America has slowly but inexorably been whittled away.

“Reaganomics”, the name for President Ronald Reagan’s supply-side economics, basically deregulated corporations and granted tax cuts for the rich.

The rest of the country suffered and still suffers. Millions of Americans have lost their jobs; millions are threatened with loss of their homes; millions have seen their retirement funds melt before their eyes; millions are threatened with loss of health care. As Americans on Main Street are being devastated, executives of bailed out banks continued to receive billions in bonuses.

The working class is in a state of paralysis today. Corporate America has smashed the unions, bought out Congress and the Executive Branch and rules supreme. President Barack Obama, a creature of the corporate oligarchy, carries out their orders. His betrayal of the people who elected him is painfully obvious.

But the country is in a fragile state. With two senseless and futile wars sapping our treasure and human resources for more than seven years and other wars continually threatening, the ruling elite faces an economic collapse.

Turning the nation into a militarized state seems the only way to keep it going.

With that famous phrase “military-industrial complex”, used for the first time on January 17, 1961, President Eisenhower warned, "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist…”

Capitalism is, again, facing its eternal contradiction.

Is this what the members of Congress, fighting the “public option”, fear most—the erosion of capitalism and that foot in the door to some form of socialism, or maybe just some good old democracy?

Socialism may require a little more than that. The sweep of history.

Stephen Fleischman, writer-producer-director of documentaries, spent thirty years in Network News at CBS and ABC. His memoir is now in print. See www.amahchewahwah.com, e-mail stevefl@ca.rr.com

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 1:59 pm
We can't afford Health Insurance and nor are we going to be able to and now they want to charge us for that?

Who the hell does BO think he is anyway this is the United States freedom of choice and that is a fact.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 3:01 pm
Dennis Fights to put the Kucinich Amendment
Back into the Health Care Bill

November 3, 2009

On the floor of the House of Representatives, Congressman Dennis Kucinich today fought to save the right of States to secure a single payer plan.

"Even though insurance companies make money not providing health care, the so-called reform bill gives so much power and money to the insurance companies that we are giving far too much for the few benefits which the bill may confer."

Join the fight for single payer, contribute.

"The insurance companies get at least another 26 million customers."

"They will receive at least an extra $50 billion in new revenue."

"They will be able to raise premiums 25%, even though in each of the last four consecutive years the industry has raised premiums by double digits."

Help in the fight, contribute.

"As long as there are for-profit health insurance companies, there will be no effective way to protect consumers against ever escalating premiums, co pays and deductibles, unless the insurance companies know that people at a state level will always have a choice to reject the insurance companies and establish a single-payer not-for-profit system."

"That is why the Kucinich Amendment must be put back in the health care bill, not just to protect the rights of states to pursue single payer, but to protect the rights of consumers to be free of the economic death grip of the insurance companies."

Please, contribute $25, $50, $100 to continue the fight for single payer health care.

Thank You
The Re-Elect Congressman Kucinich Committee

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 3:18 pm
I just got this from www.healthcare-now.org

Today, 12 brave activists were arrested because they entered Nancy Pelosi's office in California to get some answers.

They wanted to know why she broke her promise to hold votes on two single-payer amendments this fall.

They weren't leaving until the single-payer amendments were put back on the table.

Pelosi refused to speak to them. They were arrested for disrupting business as usual.

CALL PELOSI NOW! (415) 556-4862 and (202) 225-0100. Ask her to keep her promise on single-payer.

Demand that she keep her promises and put Kucinich Amendment in the bill and allow a Floor vote on the Weiner Amendment!

The people sitting in were from the Mobilization for Healthcare group.
Our Rep.s are ignoring us. We need to get louder and louder and even ugly if we have to.
People are fighting hard for us. We need to back them up in any way we can.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 4:20 pm

And I just got this (an hour and 1/2 ago) from Prosperity Agenda:


Dear Carole,

CALL PELOSI NOW! (415) 556-4862 and (202) 225-0100

There are 8 people sitting in RIGHT NOW in Nancy Pelosi's Office in San Francisco!

They are not leaving until they get an answer to their demands! Their demands are that the Kucinich amendment MUST be in the health care bill that the House votes on, and that the House MUST vote on the Weiner amendment.

Pelosi PROMISED the American people that she would ensure BOTH of the above would happen, and she has betrayed us by reneging on those promises!

YOU can HELP! Call her office in SF at (415) 556-4862 and Washington, DC (202) 225-0100; demand that she talk with the people sitting in. Demand that she keep her promises and put Kucinich Amendment in bill and allow Floor vote on the Weiner Amendment!

Burn up her phone lines people! This is NOT business as usual! This is FOR REAL - we can make a difference in the future of health care in this country
Sincerely,

Kevin Zeese
Executive Director
Prosperity Agenda

P.S. Sign up and support the campaign at www.mobilizeforhealthcare.org.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 5:42 pm
Well, that number grew to 12 and they are in jail now.
God Bless America, the capitalistic police state.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 5:46 pm

(And people called me paranoid for suggesting that America is fascist!)

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 5:56 pm
Well, for those of you in doubt...
check these out.
Social Decay in America
and watch
Is the Recession Over? Author, Democratic Senate Hopeful Jonathan Tasini on “The Audacity of Greed: Free Markets, Corporate Thieves and the Looting of America”

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 6:16 pm


Aaaah...nothing like CRAPitalism, hey?

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 7:34 pm

Am I the only one here who's questioned the theory promoted by capitalism: "Well, I have MINE . . . go get your own?"

So, what does that say about humanitarianism? (Guess it doesn't have a place in the loss of conscience fostered by the all-consuming capitalistic sense of self.)

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 7:43 pm
Capitalism is a race and there are few winners; the gullible are yet to get a grip on that.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 10:48 pm
thank you Jill and to everyone who helps to keep our voices heard..., we will no longer be silent, and we will keep taking actions for the greater good of the people....much love and peace...namaste

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 11:30 pm
So tell me now, how a health care plan that EVERY SINGLE American pay's into will only be available to cover 2 PERCENT????? Do you not wonder where your money is REALLY GOING?!!!
SHYSTERS!!!!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091101/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_public_plan
After all the fuss, public health plan covers few

Not to mention public funded abortions?

How do you brainiacs feel about it now?

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:20 am
NOTHING could be worse than no insurance -- as MANY folks are discovering the hard way, just like "poor" people have!!! EVERYONE deserves healthcare -- no matter what!!! It is moral to sincerely care about other people!!!!!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:36 am
Will YOU be one of the 2% that actually GETS coverage with this plan? It seems to me that more than 2% are covered now with medicare and medic aid, now we are going to have 100% of the American working public paying for a health care plan that only covers 2% of the people? LESS than are covered now.... It doesn't add up. Does it!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:13 am

Dear MoveOn member,

For months, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has been under intense pressure to drop the public health insurance option.

But on Monday he defied insurance lobbyists, political pundits, and conservatives of both parties by announcing that he'll include a public option in the Senate floor bill.

That's the kind of courageous leadership we need for victory on health care. But the fight's not over yet: Sen. Reid is still under fire from conservatives, including some in his own party, who will stop at nothing to kill the public option.

In this critical moment, we've got to show that thousands of Americans have his back and are fired up to fight alongside him. So we're placing a full-page ad in key newspapers on Capitol Hill and in his home state of Nevada with the names of thousands of Americans thanking Senator Harry Reid for his leadership.

Will you sign the ad? Clicking here will add your name:

http://pol.moveon.org/thankreid/o.pl?id=17733-17322208-rWoh6Fx&t=4


The ad says: "Senator Reid, thank you for your leadership on health care reform. We're standing with you in the fight for real health care reform with the choice of a public health insurance option."

For months, progressives have been demanding that health care reform include a robust public health insurance option that's affordable and available to everyone.

And while we've still got a long way to go, Sen. Reid's decision this week bucked the conventional wisdom and made clear that Democrats in Congress aren't going to stop fighting for the public option, the key to real health care reform.

But to win, we need to show we've got his back. Click here to add your name to the ad thanking Sen. Reid:

http://pol.moveon.org/thankreid/o.pl?id=17733-17322208-rWoh6Fx&t=5

Thanks for all you do.

–Nita, Eli, Kat, Ilya, and the rest of the team


Clicking here will add your name: "Senator Reid, thank you for your leadership on health care reform. We're standing with you in the fight for real health care reform with the choice of a public health insurance option."


Add your name

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:42 am
Very good Article. Thanks

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:19 am
Insurance is a highly regulated industry. Free market capitalism is being confused by the writer of the post at Counter Punch with the actions of government. These regulationos are anti-capitalistic and are alllowing insurance companies to operate in a very protected market. Capitalism, without Government intervention, would have fixed the issues long ago. It isn't capitalism that is the problem with health care, it is the lack of it.

Laws in most states prohibit the formation of groups for the purpose of purchasing insurance. Revoking that law would allow large groups to pool people together for affordable insurance that would be very profitable for the companies that bid for those groups. That alone would help many afford and obtain insurance.

The existing regulations have caused the problem and the major control of congress by lobbyist. Neither is a part of capitalism.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:44 am
Having each and every American covered with good health care coverage in NOT Socialism, it is called tax payers getting something they desperately need from the hard earned taxes we pay in. We need a system here like Medicare that gives everyone a chance to get quality health care, across the board, no matter who you are, how much money you make, and evens the playing field. Those that can afford a "premium" health policy, with more bells and whistles, then so be it, let them pay more for not really better car, but more like when you buy a car, some want it "loaded for bear" and some what not all of the options. What we need in the public option is very good basic health care, annual physicals, immunizations, tests for things like high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, mammograms, prostate exams, and then if we are ill, good care for our illnesses. We need to have eye care and dental care also. Many of us go without eye glasses or exams, and many of us never go to the dentist for preventative care, because we cannot afford it. Then if something is wrong, it is found early rather than we have full blown cancer, or heart disease, or a heart attack due to not knowing our cholesterol levels are out of whack, or we have diabetes 2 due to the fact we did not have annual physicals that may have prevented it with diet and exercise.

For those that want to keep their health care, great, that means you may have a few more options (just like buying a car, your seats maybe heated, you may have an sun roof, or a defroster on your back windshield), and that is fine. But for those of us who need basic care, or like myself, I need ongoing care for my Lupus, and without the proper doctors follow ups, my medications, regular blood tests, the Lupus could take over and do great damage to my heart, lungs, and kidneys. But having the accessibility to a good doctor for my check up, and medications, means we can hopefully keep the disease from progressing, thus that means, less hospitalizations, less organ damage, and keeps me from having astronomical bills that insurance or myself would have to pay. To me is it is no brainer. If everyone gets regular health care, we are healthier, we keep common diseases at bay, and I feel everyone deserves that.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 6:47 am

“Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” ~ John Maynard Keynes

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 7:26 am

There isn't a "healthcare" system in the USA, only highly educated and skilled practicioners, researchers, and facilities. That doesn't make a "system" per se, only services available by qualified professionals. Because health, healing, wellness, and the repair of injury and management of disease are all merely a way to make money for some individuals by controlling access by other individuals. Health care is a money industry, just like every other "industry" in the USA. If healthcare were non-profit, we'd see a very, very different picture.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 8:08 am
Just Carole, John Maynard Keynes is widely considered a non-capitalist. Still a fun quote...

Sounds like his quote could apply equally to politicians of both parties!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 8:26 am

Quite right, Paul . . . It's a quote that needs to be truly thought about because it's very tongue-in-cheek.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 9:03 am
You are NOT paranoid Carole.....you speak the Truth!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 9:37 am
As a friend fo mine says,
"just because you're paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't following you."

As for capiatlism, it is an unsustainable concept. It feeds off labor and consumers. It can feed off them for so ong and get only so big before it consumes itself. Tha is what the article talks about.
Capitalism does NOT work with necessitites! It can't. Necessitites like healthcare have nothing in place to regulate price. Insurance IS NOT highly regulated. That is why premiums have risen much faster thatn the cost of living, for no other reason than greed. Ther are no caps or regulations on premiums or coverage. There are absolutely NO regulations in the Obama?Dems?Pelosi disaster they are calling reform. Insurance premiums will continue to skyrocket.
People don't have a choice with healthcare so the industry takes advantage of it. They raise prices, cut benefits and profit. people die and they don't care. It is more profitable for people to die than to help them. Who cares if they die, there are more where they came from.
Capitalism is not the Idol God to worship as Americans have been programmed to believe. it is not self regulating either. Powe corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is not some cute quote. It is true and is proven over and over again.
We need to let go of Capitalism as sacred and be a more conscientious and compassionate society.
Afterall, this healthcare "debate" is only about one thing. do people have the right to healthcare or not. Do we, as a society have the right to let 45,000 people die every year just because their jobs don't pay enough for insurance? Do we let thousands more, who DO have insurance, die and lose their homees becausse Insurance companies, Capitalism, wants to make large profits?
Healthcare is a human right. it a society's responsibility to make sure the basic needs of its people are met. Any God Almighty Capitalism profits people want to make after that, on consumer goods and services, that are not vital to survival, is fine. But there needs to be a level playing field.
Remember too, Medicare has been deteriorating and costly becaue Congress and each Presidne keeps letting Private, For Profit, Capitalist Insurance Companies take more and more control of it. That is why it is gettting so crappy. This God Awful Bill will give them more control and more Medicare money.
HR 676, single payr, Expanded medicare for All, is the ONLY humane, responsible, and economical answer!!!
PERIOD!!!!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 9:52 am
Love all the comments here. Apart from strongly supporting the benefits of single payer healthcare, when I read the article the first thing that came to my mind was that someone got to Nancy Pelosi. It is a very career-limiting gesture to break a promise made only mere months ago and then evade the people you made that promise to.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 10:27 am
When capitalism was formed as a freedom by the new colonists in America or the U.S. by the founding fathers and populations, it was freedom from tyranny. Today capitalism is corporate plutocracy. Corrupt Capitalism is formed for the benefit of the rich and powerful and the rest of U.S. can go fish. That is why we NEED MORE REGULATION and LAWS removing power from corporations to lobby, to own media, to influence elections with contributions beyond writing one letter as citizens do. Each owner of corporations or stock holders can write their representatives, but no more.

Today's U.S. government is the product of CORRUPT CAPITALISM and it shows how greed and avarice dominate government, markets, laws, and even cause wars.

We need to return to the simple freedom of selling and buying and end large corporations from influencing more than 100 people. No corporation should be bigger than 100 people. Regulated Capitalism might start promoting freedom again, but today's crapalistic corrupt capitalism is crap because it is criminal and has corrupted our Constitution, robs our elections, lies to US in the media, and avoids paying taxes. Regan was the worst economic clown president in the history of the U.S. Republican policy is to protect corrupt capitalism and the rich and powerful that benefit from it. The rest of the support for repugs comes from demented religious idiots who think protecting the status quo makes their antiquated religious views more secure, but that makes our world corrupt.

Human emotions distort practical thought. You can't be emotionally involved in religion and think practically about the absurdity of blaming women for the problems of the world or the cartoon logic of heaven or hell, so if that faulty logic is self justified or group reinforced from churches or religious factions, repug corrupt capitalism looks good too.

Regulate capitalism so people can't cheat and abuse each other any more. Limit incomes to one million a year or half a million and redistribute the wealth to education and health care. End tax breaks for the rich and make capitalism possible again as the freedom it started out being. Capitalism is SOCIALISM compared to the feudalism it replaced in the American colonies in the 1700's, but today's un-regulated laissez-faire Corrupt Capitalism is Corporate FEUDALISM where corporate kings and executive lords rob the world of it's resources and labor.

End corrupt Corporate Capitalism! Regulate in the spirit of the Constitution's protections of people's rights, end the reign of the rich and powerful corruption of our Constitution and the return to today's Corrupt Capitalist Feudalism.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 11:33 am
No one got to Pelosi. she made the promise to shut Weiner and Kucinich up. I knew she was lieing the moment she said it. pelosi has been on insurance and pharmaceutical payroll for years. Tha is why people in her district were trying very hard to get her out of office last November. Ther wa a prograssive running against her and lost. Why?
The same old story that Ameridcans like to keep themselves stuck in. The true honest progressive candidates don't accept corporate money. As a result they don't have the billions in backing that the corrupt candidates do so they cannot run as many ads, billboards, interviews, etc..Also, the honest candidates don't get media coverage because media is no longer independant. They are corporate owned. so they practice censorship. if you are not a corporate candidate then we won't cover you.
so the honest progressives usually lose. Why? Because Americans talk change, they demand change, but refuse to change themselves. They will vote Pelosi in again. if they don't, it will be a corporate Republican they replace her with. We just keep going back and forth between names, Republican, Democrat, but stay stuck in the same party, the Money Party. Americans are afraid to vote for decent candidates because they are told, and they believe, they are throwing heir vote away. Even if the honest candidate is running under one of the corrupt parties, they won't vote for honest people. The candidate has to be wealthy and backed by corporations who make them popular. Americans want the popular one, the one the media pushes, NOT th e honest decent one who is best for the job.
We're stuck and in a horrible mess that can only get worse and it is the fault of the American voter, no one else.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." -Albert einstein

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 11:34 am

Thanks for speaking truth, Jill!

(That's why I feel privileged to have met you, and call you a friend.)

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 12:17 pm
It is always enjoyable to read discussions about capitalism being unsustainable. Had Marx lived long enough, many scholars believe that he would have written a work that would have pulled back his opinions in Das Capital, which you all will be happy to know sits on my shelf. Most of what is coming up is materialism, not capitism. All capitalism means is private ownership of the means of production. What happens after that determines how long it will survive.

Materialism, greed, and the sins of man happen in all systems. Ours is saturated, anybody take a look at CEO's or Wall Street or the salaries of those that head non-profits,not to mention almost everybody serving in congress, and it's understandable that you won't see much that is good. But, part of making things affordable for all in any system is reducing regulation, not increasing it. Increase transparency so the average 6th grader can understand how the system works. I think our main problem is driven by regulations that allow corporations to hide how they make money.

As an example, in the financial services field, I encounter products that have prospectuses over 200 pages long and it is difficult for anyone that is not in the profession to see the true costs. Why does government allow that? It is produced under their regulations but those regulations do not require it to be understandable. A product I just reviewed with a new client had an expense example buried in the prospectus. Invest $10,000 and get a 5% return for 10 years and your expenses will only be $6,117. Despite the absurdity of this really, really bad product, over 3.9 billion dollars has been invested in it since it was released just three years ago. Brokers make a large commission when they sell it. Their industry lobbies the people who regulate them.

All of this relates to health care, because the main problem, in my opinion, is that the regulations are all in favor of the insurance companies. Not an accident, most congressional representatives are attorneys. Most, in both parties, receive contributions from their buddies in business. That is who they represent and under any other system, they would have even more power than they do now. Maybe that is why some of them would like to completely change our system and control everything at the Federal level.

Think global, act local was a cool slogan. Maybe it is past time for that to be "think local and act local". A government, of any kind, that is closer to it's constituents is probably going to be a better one. That applies to organic produce too.

There is no system in nature that is similar to Marxism. Why would it work for humans if it doesn't for the animal kingdom?

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 12:18 pm
I remember during the Clinton years when these same players were saying everyone who found themselves on welfare rolls were malingerers or ripping the system off in some way. Returning soldiers seeking a healing today have been called Malingerers.. Employees injured in unsafe work places have been called lazy, malingers, etc., This miserable group of corporate and congressional leeches now say the same thing about home owners. Americans are victims of a failed economy! American's, there's no other way to put it, have become easy targets due to legislative criminals! To say that these Gr$$d based whores are slime would be an understatement. These sellouts have been allowed to bastardize the principals of our nation, the fix strongly entrenched, that they and their corporate whore's just spit in our face! It's become so nauseating listening to the Congress! I need a gag rag!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 12:25 pm
Barbara W, couldn't agree more. I would add that the gov't under Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, etc., for over 75 years encouraged all of us to buy real estate contributed to the massive amount of investment in homes that led to it's ultimate collapse. It will be a while before it comes back because the homeowner rescue plans that the Obama administration created are not designed to help most homeowners. For instance, these plans only affect first mortgages. No help on the second.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:19 pm
It was DE-regulation that crashed our economy.Government stepped back and lt Wall Street and bankers do as they please. The regulations that were in place so the stock market crash would not happen again, and it worked, were stripped away, piece by piece, and...crash! Congress has yet to put the regulations back in place to prevent this again.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:43 pm
Jill P, you are correct about the stock market, for the most part, and I don't disagree with you. I was referring to the real estate crash. I am writing a series about the fall in housing prices and was referring to the many, many, tax incentives that the government uses to promote home ownership as opposed to renting. Real estate tax breaks are one of the three largest of all the incentives that are in current tax law and those incentives drove people into home ownership. Real estate incentives have been around for over 75 years and were expanded dramatically during the 1990's and all the way up until now. Actually, they are expanding even more! The mortgages were encouraged by congress and some of our current congress were saying things like Barney Frank did in June of 2005 below:

“Those who argue that housing prices are now at a point of a bubble seem to me to be missing a very important point. Unlike previous examples we have had when substantial excessive inflation of prices later caused problems we are talking here about an entity, home ownership, homes where there is not the degree of leverage where we have seen elsewhere. This is not the dot-com situation. We had problems with people having invested in business plans of which there was no reality; people building fiber optic cables for which there was no need. Homes that are occupied may see an ebb and flow in the price at a certain percentage level. But you’re not going to see the collapse that you see when people talk about a bubble and so those of us on our committee in particular will continue to push for home ownership.”

When it comes to the housing collapse, the greed of Wall Street pales in comparison to the foolishness of congress. Congress has required, legislated, and pushed banks into making loans that led to the flood of capital into US Housing. Banks wanted these loans off their books and greed triggered creativity on Wall Street as they sold these loans to investors and made a very, very nice profit doing so. Ultimately, it dragged all of us down including the greedy guys, at least some of them, on Wall Street. I just think it's important to remember that Congress still hasn't been held accountable. More importantly, as they hold hearings and blame everyone else, it is also on their hands. They should not be trusted to fix the problem since they were a big part of it. This applies to both Republicans and Democrats, but truth be told, more Democrats in this case.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:47 pm
Meant to mention that homes are more leveraged than almost any other traditional investment, which you would think that Barney Frank would know. Also, Barney Frank is the head of the House Financial Services Committee and has been since 2006. How he and Chris Dodd have survived without anyone pointing out their part in this, is way beyond me.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:51 pm

Paul, I applaud your honesty in pointing out that this is not a partisan issue. Fault is equally shared. In fact, I restrain from party name-calling, because I don't see either side representing their constituents. (Frankly? I'm tired of listening to CSPAN coverage of House proceedings and hearing the incessant whining of either side, slinging mud.)

That said, poverty and resultant lack of health care -- are ALSO bi-partisan, both due, in large part, from unresponsive legislators, more concerned with future campaign contributions than the needs of their constituents.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:50 pm
From Health Justice
Most of the respondents to our poll (62% of 751) wanted to ask Democrats to dump the present health care bills. Jerry Call, one of the original Baucus arrestees, has now decided to take that position as well. As you know, Russell Mokhiber has been advocating that position now.
We now join those luminaries. Urge your Congressman to vote AGAINST the House health reform bill. The vote will occur at 6 pm on Saturday, as of today's news.
Notably, the Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid, has said that he may not be able to bring a bill to the floor before the end of the year. That means that there is more time -- and that is good for single payer Medicare For All.
Rep. Weiner relates that every day, Congressmen are coming up to him and saying with wonder "You know, maybe we should just lower the eligibility age for Medicare." The longer the health reform conundrum percolates in the Congress, the more likely it is that Medicare For All will become the obvious solution.
So send this fax and urge your Congressperson to oppose the House health reform bill with the 'public option' that doesn't do anything for the public.

Fax Your Congressman Now.

We're Not Going To Take It Anymore!
Sit In Schedule
Urgent Phone Calls
SiCKOs Speak Out

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:55 pm
Watch this from Democracy Now
Is the Recession Over?
Jonathan Tasini said many were betting on the crash of the housing market. They needed it to crash to make money.
Also,
single payer advocates
12 Single-Payer Advocates Arrested at Pelosi Offices
Back in the United States, twelve healthcare activists were arrested Tuesday at the San Francisco offices of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The protesters refused to leave until Pelosi agreed to discuss their demand for a single-payer healthcare system.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:59 pm
Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:01 pm
Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:02 pm
IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED!

Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:04 pm

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:06 pm
There's no good reason for this error and I seem to go through it more often then not!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:08 pm
I wonder how many legislators would hang in there if this were happening to them?

Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:10 pm
I'm really getting, you know what folks! Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:12 pm
Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:13 pm
I "Dare" not say what I'm thinking about the rejection of my comment!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:15 pm
Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:25 pm
Barbara W, what happened? If comments can be rejected, I'm curious why a thread I was on the other day still has comments of an obscene and offensive nature on it? Detailed comparisons to a very, sick, crime. Just checked, still there....

Just Carole - As usual, I find little to debate and agree with your comment with one small addition. True, unresponsive legilators are part of the problem. I would add that over-responsive legislators are also part of the problem, in that so much of what they do doesn't work. Just my opinion, as always.

Jill P, I meant no offense, but often the story we get from all media sources is not the whole story. As to some people making money off the collapse, absolutely true. They had help from many in our current congress and the previous congresses.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:37 pm

Thanks, Paul . . . I value your opinion, as I feel that you do your best to make it an unprejudiced one (as I do, not being affiliated, nor limited, by being aligned to any particular party).

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:42 pm
I like unlimited, unless it's my waistline...

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 4:06 pm
Paul here goes again... No cuss words or anything profane was used except I call the two Parties RepublicRats! Maybe it's the rats that did it. We'll see if this finally goes through.

Paul you said: more Democrats in this case

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 4:08 pm
That does it! Someone is preventing my comment from going through

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:13 pm
None taken Paul.
Barbara, that remark is not fair to Rats. I'd rather live with them than those in the Money Party.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:17 pm
You go girl! I began to think that it was not fair to Rats and in came your response. Actually they make loving pets. It's the pol-i-tic kind that does not!

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:20 pm
No, they don't make good work animals, but maybe, not great pets, but if we caged them and left them outside, chained.....

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:23 pm
Of course I am referring to the politicians.
I'd never do that to a rat.
Besides, my pet rat I had years ago, i rescued him from a lab at the University, was much more intelligent and cooperative.

Thursday November 5, 2009, 6:31 am
From Health Justice

Breaking news from PNHP. The Weiner amendment 'could' come to a floor vote on Friday or Saturday with maybe a 20 minute debate allowed. Your calls and faxes were instrumental in making this happen.
Now is the time to push hard on your congressperson to vote for the Weiner amendment. Even if it fails, it is very important to show that it has support. If the entire health reform bill fails, as it very well may, then Medicare For All has a real shot at enactment when Congress realizes it MUST address health care.
So send this fax right now to your Congressperson.
You can also send a fax with your own words by clicking here.
There are numerous other faxes that support the Medicare For All idea. Take your pick.
Then call your Congressperson. You can get the phone number here. And call the Congressional bigwigs also. Here are the numbers:


Call Speaker Pelosi: (202) 225-4965
Call Bill Floor Manager Rep. George Miller: (202) 225-2095
Call Bill Floor Manager Rep. Henry Waxman: (202) 225-3976

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:34 pm
Thanks Jill. DTDN packet with sigs. for HR 676 and cover letter should land in Washington today or tomorrow. I believe that "We" may still force the hand of the holdouts to give serious consideration to Single Payer. The Public Option is being turned into a nightmare! American's are still reeling from the nightmares of job loss, foreclosures and health care costs and the overwhelming undue influence that Insurers have been allowed to have when it comes to a healthy approach towards Americans health and welfare!

I am adamant about the insurer being out, clean out, cleared out, given their walking papers, no longer permitted to make decisions on the health and welfare of any Americans life, ever! Period! As the founder of Dare To Dream and the wife of a permanently disabled husband I have had first hand dealings with these leeches and sadly, doctors that serve them. If the truth be known, of all the professionals in various fields I have had dealings with, those who have had a strangle hold on the Health care system brought out the worse in me. I cannot print what that means here. Eight years lost in a persons life is eight years gone! Many folks will tell you that if they buck the insurer their life becomes one nightmare after another as the Insurer will spend more money to discredit you, then it would cost to make you whole again.

Those on the hill who know DTDN are well aware of our stand! Many legislators during the Clinton era received a thousand page DTDN packet documenting the abuse many employees were going through after an injury, even the death of one, finding themselves at the mercy of "State and Private" insurers dictating their care or not. INSURERS playing doctor! INSURERS deciding if you had a future now that you were challenged! INSURERS deny claims, medical intervention, medication for pain. You name it, they'll find an excuse to deny and deny and deny! How else does it take a life time to escape their grasp? Either way, care or not, the injured party loses!

The packet sent in the 90's was resent again this month with additional documents.

This health care issue, the most important of any issue facing this nation, will not be placed on a back burner again. American's, through no fault of their own, are losing jobs, going under due to outrageous health care cost, crooked credit card and mortgage practices and or, catastrophic illness, as well as an economy that's been shattered due to the very same people that would now, "Dare", deny, US HEALTH CARE! This nations leaders had better wake up now! The nation's hemorrhaging!

"We" must demand an end to the undue influence of those Companies, CEOS, responsible for the downward spiral of the American economy! A nation that doesn't respect it's citizens will soon antagonize and lose the backing of the entire country. When people feel oppressed, depression becomes the end result! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the message!

In time, good folks faced with one dead end after another, will lose it. It's what they will do, when they do, that becomes the QUESTION! NOTE: A man seriously injured and put through the mill, finally, he thought, resolved his permanent disability claim! He, on permanent disability, and his family, all of whom were working, decided to buy a house. This man's benefits had been terminated many times during his fight. He was promised that this would never happen again.. But, lo and behold, with-in short order his benefits were stopped. No explanation just stopped! When he went to the state insurance office, angered as you can imagine, he was confronted by a security guard who it is said, threw him out.

Now keep in mind this person was suffering day and night with pain. He had been put through so much with the system he was certainly suffering PTSD as well. He had finally won his case and was assured that his benefits would not be terminated. But! They were! He's now being thrown out of the Insurer's building, built on the blood of it's victims, because he did not come in kissing ass and, the security guard, who "We" all knew well for his intimidating actions, hand on his gun as he confronted folks, threw him out.

This man finally lost it and came into the building using his car instead of his feet and began, as witnesses attested too, shooting up in the air. With that the security person shot him. When the inquiry came down. The security guard said he never carried a gun but had access to one. Lies! Lies! This SG was an instigator who would call folks names and make threatening gestures with his gun which he claimed he never carried.. The man who had been put through so much having survived an abusive system, a shot to his person, was made an example and sent to prison. His family lost their house,!I would guess because now this battle warn man needed representation.

My point in all of this! I'll let this, my favorite saying which was sent to the legislators, often...
speak for me and all the good folks who have been put through ENOUGH!!!!


Saints and Sinners
When somebody yields to temptation
And breaks one of man’s or God’s laws,
We look for no good in his make-up,
But oh! how we look for the flaws!
No one cares about how he was tempted,
Nor praises the battles he’s fought;
His name becomes food for the jackals --
For us who have never been caught.
“He has sinned!” we shout from the house-tops,
We forget the good deeds he has done,
We focus on that one lost battle,
And forget all the times he has won.
“Come, gaze at the sinner!” we thunder,
“And by his example be taught
That his footsteps lead to destruction!”
Cry we who have never been caught.

I’m a sinner, O Lord, and I know it,
I’m weak, I blunder, I fail.
I’m tossed on life’s stormy ocean
Like ships embroiled in a gale.
I’m willing to trust in Thy mercy,
To keep the commandments Thou’st taught,
But deliver me, Lord, from the judgment
" Of saints who have never been caught!"

The good people of these United States including those who gave it up in wars, those who worked dead end jobs while others profited from thee labor and sacrifice of these American citizens making it possible for big biz to grow and legislator enjoy the security of hearth and health that is before many decided they wanted more and received huge handouts from the enemy of the American people, will not be treated as second hand citizens. No human being should be denial health care which allows choice, convenience, safety tested drugs and medical procedures and doesn't penalize someone for a pre-existing problem! Talk about fraud! The Insurers have committed fraud on so many fronts that if the system worked they would have been thrown out of the country for being enemies that provided only TERROR! I guess you can see I AM MAD AS A HATTER! By the way! I'm covered! Nuff said?


" To Care For Him Who Shall Have Borne The Battle "
Abraham Lincoln

Thursday November 5, 2009, 3:06 pm
The last paragraph needed fine tuning so I am resending.. Sorry folks, after all these years I still get crazy because I cannot believe that "We" are being put through this ghastly ordeal. Forced to fight an uphill battle in order to feel secure with the knowledge our loved ones can feel safe and secure in the knowledge that our nation's leaders value them! Barbara

The good people of these United States, including those who gave it up in wars, those who worked dead end jobs while others profited from their labor have sacrificed ENOUGH! Americans made it possible for big biz to grow while legislator enjoyed the security of hearth and health! That is, before many leaders decided they wanted more of the good life and sold out! The truth is they sold out to an enemy of the American people! "We" Americans will not be treated like second hand citizens. No human being should be denied health care that allows for choice, convenience, safety tested drugs and medical procedures! Any insurer that would "Dare" penalize someone for a pre-existing problem should go to prison! Talk about fraud! The Insurers have committed fraud on so many levels it's clear, if the system worked for the real citizens of this nation, the abusers would have been thrown out of the country for being enemies who provided only TERROR! I guess you can see I AM MAD AS A HATTER! By the way! I'm covered! Nuff said?


" To Care For Him Who Shall Have Borne The Battle "
Abraham Lincoln

Thursday November 5, 2009, 6:19 pm
Yes Barbara, that is delayed shock syndrome. You suffer from trauma to your moral and ethical sense of justice. Today's conservatives range from religious abortion hate mongers who support U.S. military invasions and occupations that cost millions of lives of wounded and dead, but do not support a woman's right to have control and choice over her reproductive life.

Capitalism and religion are old cousins. The Church always makes more money with more patrons, just like any other commodity and services vender. Further, the state needs soldiers who will fight for god or with god's blessing and mass murder the state's enemies. Huge sums of money are pumped into wars and how many soldiers would fight if god did not exist and critical thinking did not accept the political and media justification of war? Not many. Probably, the only corrupt corporate capitalist warriors for greed and avarice would go down proportional to the warrior's understanding of why he is fighting, the corruption, and the betrayal of his trust by the corporate media and and lying politicians. Today politicians are so corrupted by the corporate infrastructure, they believe they are fighting for country when it is for corporate interests.

Corrupt capitalism is feudalism. Corporate Kings and executive lords run the country. Why else do the people refuse to endorse single payer health care, or go to their illegal and immoral wars based on lies, media corruption, and breaking International Law?

They don't question authority and they don't think critically is the only explanation. Pleasure bubble corporate slaves and materialist junkies. More, more, more is vice not a way to live and it shows to get more the value of life goes down as labor costs drop, corporate profits rise, and wars are perpetual to terrorize the world's populations. Sounds like an alpha male wolf pack territorial domination done human animal style with technological teeth, but it is biologically driven in other species and human beings. People deny our connection to the natural world that is in common with other species because of religion. Religion removes people from their real selves and real world. More than that, the earth is seen as a resource to have "dominion" over instead of living in harmony with, so religion is contributing to global over population, and global climate change more than any other dysfunctional cultural quality.

Corrupt Corporate Capitalism is a curse upon the world just as feudalism was.

Friday November 6, 2009, 2:06 am
Great comments from most of you, thanks! Here is Eisenhower's military industrial speech;
http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html
Think we are not at that point? Think again!

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:56 am
You cannot currently send a star to Marty because you have done so within the last week.

Friday November 6, 2009, 8:57 am
You cannot currently send a star to Casey because you have done so within the last week.

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:23 pm
Its a mutual appreciation group : o) I have the same star giving problem...

Eisenhower's speech is the preamble to the new Constitutional Amendment separating Corporate from State. That speech has to be the best, most honest statement about the status quo American Culture's Corrupt Corporate infrastructure that he called the Military Industrial Complex.

Health care to warfare is for corrupt capitalists profits not to benefit the people.

Read Marty's link on one tab while you watch and listen to the speech on you tube.
Here is Marty's link with active HTML code:
http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html

Link of one nice you tube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdrGKwkmxAU&feature=related

Friday November 6, 2009, 4:27 pm
The text link Eisenhower's prophetic and politically and culturally insightful speech didn't work, I guess they pulled the page?

Here is one that is good:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401804834.html

Friday November 6, 2009, 9:17 pm
If neo-nuts and blue dogs block healthcare, we should be able to block their own taxpayer funded healthcare. It's only fair. Either we're all in , or no body is.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 1:54 am
"The term single-payer thus only describes the funding mechanism—referring to health care being paid for by a single public body from a single fund—and does not specify the type of delivery, or who doctors work for. Although the fund holder is usually the government...."

Why would anyone want another government program? Someone said that health care "should be" a right. What does that mean exactly? Have we become so helpless that we now see "rights" as something given to us by governments? Are we children who rely on a parental government figure for our needs? Anyone who is willing to kick the habit of dependence can be in full control of their health care today.
I read that people are in jail for going to Pelosi - why were they there? She has only the relevance we award her. Government has the relevance we award it. I cannot figure out why people are still hanging on to the illusion that government can make things better or has any good ideas. It's pure fantasy.
Whatever, so called, victories are won as the result of the energy and time invested in pleading with Big Daddy will only result in less choice, less freedom and less chance of anything better. Here is my Public Option - You can take it - Or you can take charge. Live on your knees - Or rise up and follow the self determined path.

Start here and work out your own

Saturday November 7, 2009, 5:25 pm
I want the government program because the private BCBS program I have had for the last 2 years is horrible and they profit and gain from my pain. I can't easily do anything without insurance pre-approval and many times they have denied paying. I use BiPAP equipment that I can buy for $800 on the internet, that they charge more than $3000 for. I just tried to get another mask that costs $75 on the internet and after paying the DME provider $100, they wanted me to pay $200 more. It is piracy and corporate interference with our health.

We don't need some company profiting from our health care needs.

We don't have profit centered police, firemen, or public education, military and when it is privatized it is worse. BlackWater is a CIA criminal style enterprise that makes the world more vulnerable to mass murderers and death dealers. The privatized prisons are much more expensive to the taxpayer and offer more abuse and trauma to the people inside. Public schools are worse because of private school subversion by the upper classes drawing off the potential benefits for all children and lowering the educational experience for those left in the Child Warehouses they call Public School that teach them little and growing less every year.

Where is the priority? The Commons used to be the forest. We got our meat, wood for fires, wood and rock and clay for building and making ceramics for free. We could use all the water, fuel, and food we needed for free. We soon found kings controlling the commons and fines and punishment replaced the freedoms. Now Corporate American has replaced the kings.

John Locke influenced the founding father's of the U.S. with his philosophical principle that states people give up some freedom to live in a a civilized governed world to avoid anarchy, piracy, and crimes against US. This principle is abused when the rich and powerful are so protected that they can exploit, reject, and profit from US without regulation or obligation to maximize our basic right to health, happiness, and life.

Without health life and the pursuit of happiness is foiled and futile. How can corporate ditto heads advocate profit for the rich is more important than people's lives?

The right wingnutz have got everything wrong. Everything they say is twisted by the corporate advertisement agencies and lawyers to be backwards. Things like corporations have the same rights as individuals when they have thousands of times more power and wealth collectively to control and corrupt our lives and government. Examples are the Iraq war, healthcare for the rich and stupid while 50 million have no access other than the emergency ward to health care, corrupted media such as FAUX right wing talking point propaganda, and lobbies and legislation that have violated the spirit and letter of the Constitution of the U.S.

People need to be protected from corporate corruption the same way the 1st Amendment protects US with Separation of Church and State and Free Speech.

I want Single Payer health care, Single Payer Police, Single Payer Firemen, Single Payer Military, Single Payer Education, and if we don't understand why these Common RIGHTS are part of what every person needs to live and prosper in life, then it show how damaging the media, how poor our education is, and how poor our critical thinking is that people could agree with Limpy, G Beck, and FAUX propaganda that all twist, lie, for Republican agendas that are really working for the rich and powerful corporate owners.

" It is better to die on your feet (aware) than live on your knees" bowing to the false profits and lies of traditional culture, lies and the deception of the rich and powerful corporate owners, their media and the shallow lack of critical thought ditto heads that continue the lies and propaganda.

The best healthcare system in the Americas is in Canada and Cuba. We spend more than any other country in the world and our healthcare is ranked 27th. The difference is the corporations make billions in profit and leave millions uninsured, millions bankrupt-72% of all bankruptcies are from healthcare costs that people WITH INSURANCE had and could not afford. 60% of bankruptcies are from healthcare bills and the insurance companies dropped them. It is a NATIONAL SHAME that greed and avarice are the republican and conservative legacies that they defend with propaganda and lies.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:34 pm
Wild, over-the-top rhetoric and bizarre conspiracy theories about health reform aren't just coming from the right-wing blogs and talk-radio loudmouths.

http://www.alternet.org/politics/143790/10_of_the_nuttiest_statements_elected_officials_have_made_in_the_health_care_battle/

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:41 am
DOWN with Capitalism! STOMP on Capitalism! POOP on Capitalism! SCHEISS on Capitalism! I love that, CRAPitalism! I'll remember that one!!! Capitalism/Crapitalism A BAS!

The "FREE MARKET"? Oh, PUH-LEEZE!
When the Big Corporations, the Mister Mega-bucks, lined up WHINING at the PUBLIC TROUGH, asking for OUR Tax Money to get BAILED OUT: THAT'S when they PROVED that THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE FREE MARKET. THERE REALLY IS NO SUCH THING.
In a really "FREE", Free Market, they would "take their licks" because they FAILED, financially.......just like a Mom&Pop grocery store or small non-chain ice cream parlor or indie bookstore, that can't make it and FAILS.

The "Free Market" is just an EMPTY IDEA that they use to SELL THEMSELVES TO US SUCKERS. THEY actually NEVER believed in it! and as for "Socialism", THE BIG CORPORATIONS JUST BELIEVE IN SOCIALISM FOR THEMSELVES. Not any of the BENEFITS of Socialism for the "Common Man" and Woman; NOOOOOOOOO; but SOCIALISM FOR THE RICH, any little and big Financial handout they ASK for, merely for the asking of it!!!

The problem is NOT "Big Government"; the problem is NOT ENOUGH GOVERNMENT, AND NOT WORKING FOR US.
It's the CORPORATIONS that want "pared-down little government", meaning, "as little GOVERNMENT REGULATION, REINING IN ON GREED", as possible!

The "Free Market" has ultimately and forever, FAILED.
CAPITALISM, in all its tawdry and fragile "splendor", has TOTALLY FAILED. Failed in providing adequately for BASIC HUMAN NEEDS of food, clothing, shelter, health, community, a decent education.....

SOCIALISM, and especially, SOCIALIZED MEDICINE, is starting to sound GOOD again!
This is the SOCIALISM OF, BY, AND FOR THE PEOPLE; NOT "Socialism" for the wealthy!
NOT the "Socialism" of dictatorships, either. SOCIALISM is PERFECTLY COMPATIBLE with Democracy. Ask the Swedes. Ask other Industrialized countries that have Socialized Medicine.

Remember these FACTS: the United States PAYS THE MOST for Health Care, of any country in the world.
But, the United States DOES NOT GET the best Health Care, in the world. FAR, FAR FROM IT. The United States ranks ONLY 37th in level of Health, statistically. NOT EVEN IN THE TOP TWENTY.

Remember, 45,000 people DIE EACH YEAR because they are DENIED Health Care; which should be a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

45,000 people are CASUALTIES OF THE CAPITALIST-GREED SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE. Casualties. Dead. Including friends and relatives, children and neighbors, of people reading this thread. Dead. Because of an OBSOLETE CAPITALIST SYSTEM. That CANNOT be defended.
The difference between what we PAY for Health Care; and what we GET for our money; THAT DIFFERENCE goes to the SELFISH, GREEDY, PROFIT-TAKING WEALTHY CAPITALISTS WHO DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- ZILCH -- FOR ANYBODY'S HEALTH; but just SIT there and RAKE IN MEGA-BUCKS for doing NOTHING AT ALL.....

DOWN with Capitalism! STOMP on Capitalism! POOP on Capitalism! Crapitalism!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 6:41 am
By all means, dispose of Capitalism. Unemployment already at 10.2%, 17.5% if you count unemployed. Numbers should rise dramatically over the next year as we perform the recommended bodily functions on the engine of Capitalism.

The most selfish, wealthy person, creates numerous jobs, not with their taxes but with their spending. As they tuck their checkbooks firmly in their pocket, remember how we treated them and why their money is no longer in the system. And remember the taxes that they used to generate.

But, at least we'll have gov't funded health insurance, for as long as the gov't can afford it. And we will be closer to economic equality.

Not that bad yet, just seemed like a good time to make the point as we race down the economic road to serfdom.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 5:41 pm
Reganomics and Thatcher's continued economic policies are great examples of Corrupt Capitalism's barrow and spend. But Obama's trap to bail or fail is a no win situation because the debt is mounting...

Here is a good video about the U.K. and the debt putting England in the worst economic compared to other European countries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:38 am
Paul, ther you go agin. It's either all God Almighty Capitalism or nothing. Ther is a time and place for everything. Selling goods and services is fine. Holding a humkan life ransom for ungodly amounts of money, "Pay or Die" system we have now is disgusting, barbaric, and apathetic, not to mention, greed at its very peak.
Also, capitalism dos need to be controlled. Ther has to be regulations to keep it under control and to keep the top 5% from completely gouging and controlling our country and our political system. No, it isn't the rich who keep our economy going They don't pay anywhere near their share in taxes, and big box stores never pay the county or state the sales tax they collect from customers. They do not contruibute to our society or government. They only contribute to politicians to buy and own them. They need to be thrown out of Washington in order to have a Democracy. Until that happens we will never be a Ntion governed by the people, for the people. We will never do what the majority wants, as a democracy is supposed to do, but only what the top 1% want.

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:48 am
Amen! BMutiny!
You are right, the proud and adament capitalist criers and Free Market advocates, "Leave us alone and the "Free market will fix itself." BS They don't believe in the free market. What they mean by the free market is leave us to do whatever we want to whoever we please. They said "Don't get rid of private insurance and enact single payer governemtn run insurance. Leave us alone and the competition will keep prices down. (Meantime premiums have risen four times faster than the cost of living. But someday competition will regulate the prices and we'll all be fixed.) "Robust Public Option! Oh, no! That's not fair. That kind of competition will drive prices down and force us to cover eveyone and all illnesses. Not fair!"
So much for Free Market. Corporate greed (which is very redundant nowadays) fixes prices and ther is no competition in the USA. Most corporations are only owned by a very small handful with different names giving the illusion of competition.
Corporations pay Congress to enact laws to squash small businesses as well. They can't take a chance on the business being successful and possibly posing competition.
Greed. Scum. Trash....

Monday November 9, 2009, 9:04 am
Doug, I trust you will NOT be collecting medicare when you retire. Medicare IS the government program everyone is refering to when they talk about single payer. It is a government inusrance program. Anyone on Medicare can tell you it is not free. You pay for it with your taxes and then, once you collect, you pay a monthly premium. Everyone who is in it gets the same coverage. Unlike private, you get waht you pay for. The rich get better coverage and the poor get less or minimal, usually no coverage.
so since you are so opposed to government programs, do not collect your Medicare since you think no one else should have the right it.
I just cannot agree with you. I don't think people should be taken advantage of because healthcre is a need.
I don't feel people should suffer, die or lose theri homes based on their income.

Monday November 9, 2009, 9:26 am
Sorry to believe that health care is better under a semi-capitalist sytem than a system run by government, but I do. Agree with some level of regulation, believe me when I say that my industry is abusive of most investors even in a regulated environment.

But the rich pay more in taxes than you may realize, I posted a story about the dramatic increase in the percentage of income taxes paid during the Bush administration a few weeks ago. The most selfish, arrogant, and obnoxious rich person creates many of the jobs that have been disappearing as we gleefully attack the rich. They create jobs by their purchases and investments. When the luxury tax was passed early during the Clinton administration, thousands of people lost jobs at Hatteras Yachts, Learjet, Merceders, etc., not to mention those who worked for their suppliers. I am not rich, but I am thankful that they exist. Most of them are not obnoxious and arrogant, but I'm thankful even for those that are.

The nice thing about capitalism is that the so-called rich are in a constant state of change. It is important to remember that the rich are constantly changing as more people move into and out of the high income tax brackets each year. Those who are rich now, may not have been a few years ago, and some who were are not rich now.

The gov't plan, whenever it passes, will exclude care for somebody. There is a discussion in the Causes secton of Care2 on several different threads that is truly alarming, and I don't just mean for capitalist like me. The assumption that any gov't plan will cover everyone for everything is, at best, idealistic. Lobby for what you believe, but hold the rich congress people who draft this legislation accountable for their action. If the bill passed Saturday night is any example, they need to be held accountable with calls and letters now.

I'm assuming all are aware that the bill specifically exempts private insurers from any and all liability. Page 130-131. What citizen would be helped by that exemption, and it isn't a Republican who put it in the bill, not that they wouldn't do the same thiing, but we know they are not involved in anything but the vote during this legislative session.

Finally, most large corporations are owned by shareholders through their 401ks and mutual funds. That said, I prefer small business and a limited government in the form of State, County, and City. Large entities, whether corporate or governmental, are the biggest problem in any system, including capitalism.

As always, no offense intended, but in my opinion the energy used in the war against capitalism and the rich might be better spent fixing things at the local level. It is evident, and I think we all agree, that Washington has been bought by those with money. I would, speaking for me, include Corporations, Non-profits, Unions, PACs, etc. If it were all audited, the results would most likely be very enlightening to us all.

Monday November 9, 2009, 12:26 pm
Paul, you should love this "healthcare" Bill that passed. It fully supports, promotes and accelerates the "free market" health insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry. it is nothing more than another bailout for the private sector...AGAIN. PLUS, as an added bonus, Congress guarenteed both greedy murderous industries millions more customrers by FORCING them to buy private insurance wehter they can afford it or not.
WAIT, that's not all! We have for these highly profitable, price gouging industries....
NO STRINGS ATTACHED!!! That's right. Premiums can continue to go up, services can continue to get crappy...pay more for less, they can continue to deny people care...and...for the pahrmaceuticals...they have full control over new drugs for 12 years! Yes, ther can be NO generics for at least 12 years...so price gouge away!!!!!
The ONLY condition is they both continue to keep those millions pouring in to Washington.
So keep your eyes out citizens. We need to work together as a nation.
If you spot a neighbor, friend or relative WITHOUT health insurance REPORT them immediately. The US will have agents there right away to take their $3,800 fine or throw them in jail!
All this with compliments form the American taxpayer, wehter they like it or not. They will pay for it all with their taxes and then again out of their own pockets directly to the Industries!
Don't be too upset...Congress and the President made sure most Americans would only carry half the huge expense for this bailout. Seniors and the disabled on medicare will pay half the Bill. They're gonna die soon anyway. Take what you can from them now.

Single payer, Expanded Medicare for All, HR 676 supported only by those who care.

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:12 pm
Jill P., you are having fun with me or I haven't explained myself very well. We totally agree on everything based on your comment, well, except for HR676, but you can't expect full agreement with everything,...

When I say free market and capitalism, I mean a market with sufficient regulation to keep people honest and one that is transparent, which simply means that everything is disclosed. We don't have that now and haven't had that for many, many years. I also mean a government that doesn't transfer money from taxpayers to a select group and use their power to build monopolies.

The issues you mention in your comment are not issues of capitalism, they are issues of a federal bureaucracy that has an agenda, is far from transparent, and has a history of creating programs that gradually take over the budget and, with a few exceptions, end up not working.

We do need to work together as a nation and including a few open minded capitalist and rich people in the solution is probably a good idea. The reason I will probably never want a federal plan is because I simply don't trust the leadership of either party to honestly handle the responsibility. Smaller is better and states, counties, and cities closer to those that they serve.

If states eliminated the ability of insurance companies to discriminate, allowed people to pool together to purchase insurance in group plans based on residency, and the congress eliminated the exemption enjoyed by insurance companies to anti-trust rules, ou wouldn't need government plans at all. A grassroots movement could help neighborhoods, towns, cities, whatever, form groups and gather bids from insurance companies that would have to compete for the business. And if we removed businesses from deducting premiums and allowed individuals to handle their insurance payments directly, just as we do with car insurance, we would deal directly and not be affected when we change jobs.

I think that is possible, and more likely to work than a bloated federal plan with greedy politicians being bought off by greedy companies. If buying local organic produce makes more sense than genetically engineered garbage from Monsanto, then why wouldn't local insurance coops make more sense than congressionally altered garbage from Washington.

The rich and powerful are leading the way to a federal plan. People like George Soros founded moveon.org to make everyone lobby for federal solutions to local problems, granted it was originally founded to get rid of Bush, but the organization is still there and Bush is gone. Yes, the uninsured are national in scope, but wouldn't it be easier and more effective to address that issue closer to the individuals that make up the 47 million? How many of the heads of the non-profits that are pushing for a federal insurance program are not in the highest income tax bracket?

Well, that was a bit long, but we want the same thing. Health care for all, the end of abusive and overly profitable health insurance companies, and lower health care costs. I know there's no way anyone will pay any attention to the above and focus on their local areas. But, in my opinion, it is a solution that does not result in massive layoffs, permanent high unemployment, and reduced health care for all.

Just my opinion, as always, no offense intended and I still can't believe you really thought I'd like that incredibly bad bill Pelosi and Obama pushed to passage in the house. I hate it probably more than you do :-)

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:40 pm
Here we go again! Instead of holding the perpetrators of the largest heist ever who ripped US off big time, demanding what amounts to "Welfare" assistance, we're going at each other. The Bail-outs were THEFT! America was ripped off! And nary a shot over the bow! Why was this heist allowed to become a reality? Because "We" American's have yet to learn the lesson that only unity, coming together, brings. We demand equality, as well we should, but when it comes down to equality some would limit who will be treated equal.

The Corporations, pure and simply, do whatever they can to limit and discredit ANYONE that gets in their way. ANYONE! Your fight may be just, but they will only use more of their resources to discredit you! This is not whims of fancy! This is a very real, deadly, an insidious problem that years later has hit closer to home for the small biz folks! They didn't see it coming but the employee and family members of those being made the scapegoat got a handle on it WAY BACK WHEN. The middle class is now among the missing in action! Many more employees are being laid off. The employees laid off at Enron could tell US a tale of betrayal. Why? Who caused this? Wages have not gone up worth a damn but insurance premiums, interest rates and the cost of living, have.

From where I found myself, going back to the early 90's, some small business folks cared not who paid as long as they got what they were after. The small biz administration in my state of Nevada was run by a cut throat lady, who, along with big biz, ran ads, gave interviews. Their target? The target was the little guy who could not afford commercials airing their side. Employees were being left out to dry. Even back then the health care issue was hot and heavy! The workman's comp system, run by the state, along with private insurers in the mix, would have been better called "Break the union and the backs of the workers and, redistribute the wealth so it goes to big biz and, for a time, to appease them, small biz! The small biz advocate is now working for a big Insurer! Guess there wasn't much of a future in being a small biz advocate.

The union bosses were missing in action as well back then and some of them, good guys, were really reeling from the effects of what was coming down the pike! A take over was in progress by major players in the world of big biz and the Insurers! And our elected officials were in that dastardly mix! The word making the rounds at that time was the employee was a malingerer looking for a free ride. Commercials were geared towards desecrating the employee. Some doctors sold their soul to the company store by denying an injury had taken place or, it was called, PRE-EXISTING!

I know this first hand because I recorded a doctor who had the audacity to "Dare" make an evaluation saying there was no injury to a certain employee I was assisting at the time. This individual had already had an independent evaluation that spelled out a different story from the insurers hit man Doctor.. The recording caught this doctor red handed. Why else do you think that "Tort Reform" is such a big issue with some doctors? Why would a patient sue a doctor unless they were damaged by that doctor? Even if you sue you pay hell to collect. The Republicans are doing everything they can with help from turncoat Democrats to enact Tort Reform. Then what??? What's in it for them? Where does that leave the average American that's now faced with a Health Care bill HR 3962 which only serves to tighten the noose? Insurers in the biz of health is an oxymoron! Health Care for Profit, instead of Health Care for the American people is the only health care system they are concerned with! After all, it is the state of their personal bank accounts they are concerned with!

This takeover was in the works for a long while. The Reagan years gave it the life needed to take off. Even the NAFTA monster was the elder Bush's baby! Why else do we think that the Clinton administration was under fire 24/7 and this democrat signed the bill into law? By creating deregulation and that "trickle down economics" which has, of late, attacked their next victim, small biz folks, the foundation for take over was laid. The Middle class, as we like to refer to them, was to become the next casualty. And so they have!

My observation is that the Bail-Outs, the Fisa Bill and the Health Care bill, even the war in Iraq, have something in common. Bait and Switch! Then spin the issue to death! The Republicans and the Democrats have been playing good cop bad cop with the American people for a long time and so far, damn, it's worked! To those who are well healed, my hats off to you if you got there without cutting the throat of others. But cut throats are running the show and they began their underhanded quest in various States running their bogus, brain washing, ads! Many of which called the employee, especially one injured on the job, malingerers. If you were an employee with an issue, you were considered a trouble maker looking for a free ride! Unsafe work places, that were dangerously unsafe, were not unsafe according to the media hype! Soon the media ignored the pleas of the little guy. We can all see that from where our media's been going for a long while. Big biz owns all the major networks, and have bought most Legislators!

The way this health care bill HR 3962 reads in it's present language, http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10688/hr3962Rangel.pdf
leaves room for concern. How many pages (1,990) does it take to do some good! Not many I would say! How many pages does it take for the masters of confusion, the gr$$d mongers, to pull off another heist? Read the bill and you tell me! This is the Senate's version (HR 3200), http://candicemiller.house.gov/pdf/hr3200.pdf! Pages in this bill Over 1000!

Drug companies, not only physicians, are looking for protection from law suits, Pharmaceuticals have already made guinea pigs out of the average citizen with drugs that are sicker then the person taking them. The commercials nauseate me because they are designed to be disclaimers. Why in the world would you take something that may "KILL YOU"? And if you sue you'll be challenged in court. What did you know and when did you know it!

The games power brokers play with the lives of others is an abomination! There was a time these players would be playing in a state or federal prison. Today they get rewarded with bonuses and perks!

The bill will not take effect till 2013.

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:46 pm
The bill will not take effect till 2013.

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:47 pm
There's a method to the madness that placed the date at 2013.. What's your guess? It's also my bet that there will be lawsuits up the you know what since HR 3962 forces folks to purchase health care! That is, unless the legislators ask for tort reform! America stepped into the Twilight Zone and that should concern all Americans no matter your politics the tics are scary!

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:51 pm
You cannot currently send a green star to Barbara W. *****************************************.

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:56 pm

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Barbara because you have done so within the last week.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 4:37 pm
Thank you Barbara W. And Jill. THIS "Health Care Bill" was OBVIOUSLY DESIGNED to silence us serfs armed only with wooden pitchforks and flaming torches, and with our voices, who DEMANDED some sort of Health Care Reform. It was DESIGNED ON PURPOSE, to divide and confuse us, bewilder us with its tricky language, and throw us a poisoned morsel from our "Masters'" table. Aaaahhhh, THAT'LL teach 'em, to get so riled up and disturb our UN-ENDING PROFIT-TAKING.

If it doesn't take effect until 2013, WE CAN STILL AGITATE FOR SINGLE-PAYER. And we ARE doing so! NO REASON AT ALL WHY WE SHOULD STOP. Don't let our "Masters", the gigantic Insurance Behemoths, think for a MOMENT that they have stopped us DEMANDING SINGLE-PAYER; or that they CAN stop us: WE THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!
By the way, I hope EVERYONE here sees Michael Moore's films, both "Sicko", and "Capitalism: a Love Story". VERY POWERFUL INDICTMENTS.

Sorry, Paul, but the Capitalism of which I speak, is NOT the Christmas story, small-town MYTHOLOGY of the benevolent local businessman who "provides jobs" and therefore money gets "spent locally" to create other businesses and MORE jobs in turn.....Jimmy Stewart-style.

Did you see Michael Moore's videos of FLINT, MICHIGAN? and of DETROIT, in his latest film? A TOTAL WASTELAND, THAT LOOKS AS IF IT HAD BEEN HIT BY A BOMB? THAT, my friends, is the result of OUTSOURCING.... A veritable RACE TO THE BOTTOM, where because AMERICAN UNIONS DEMAND WORKERS' RIGHTS AND A LIVING WAGE TO SUPPORT A FAMILY, the ENTIRE FACTORY gets OUTSOURCED to a Third-world country with NO Unions, and workers having no choice, who will work for less.... and then if the Workers in THAT country show ANY SIGN OF DIS-CONTENT and even make a try at UNIONIZING themselves, then THE WORK GETS OUTSOURCED AGAIN, to a MUCH CHEAPER country with a MORE COMPLIANT workforce..... including maybe children, prisoners, and virtual SLAVES. THAT is what is meant by "a race to the bottom".

THE CURRENT RISING UN-EMPLOYMENT RATE, IS THE DIRECT RESULT OF THE BIG CAPITALISTS' DIS-PLEASURE WITH AMERICAN UNION ORGANIZING; and of course, OF COURSE, with their unlimited desire for a Bottom-line of BIGGER AND BIGGER, and bigger and bigger, and bigger and bigger, etc., PROFITS.

Most of those "products" that are made and sold by Capitalism by this method, ARE TOTALLY USELESS AND TOTALLY UN-NECESSARY AND MAYBE SOCIALLY AS WELL AS ENVIRONMENTALLY DESTRUCTIVE GOODS, anyway.

THAT'S why the Advertising Industry came about -- to CONVINCE US TO BUY GOODS WE DIDN'T NEED. In the Olden Times, maybe in Colonial America, an advertisement MERELY advised you "where and when goods were going to be sold". "Hats sold here"; "Shoes made & repaired here"; "Silverware by Mr. Paul Revere"; "A New Shipment of Slaves from Africa"; things like that. For things you actually NEEDED, for the most part.
A plastic "Talking Barbie Doll" could ONLY be sold, thru MASSIVE MASS ADVERTISING.

Also, THE GOODS WE BUY REGULARLY NOW, COME FROM CHINA and other cheapest-labor countries; putting in these factories has DESTROYED THE LOCAL INDUSTRIES, LOCAL BUSINESSES, and thus, DESTROYED LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND COMMUNITY LIFE, in those countries.

The EXPLOITATIVE JOBS, "created" in those Third-world countries, "BENEFITTED" ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE BUT THE MONEY-MAKERS. I saw a video about how your JEANS are manufactured in China....... AWFUL, TERRIBLE. Cheaper jeans worth it? if you factor in the HUMAN cost: "NO!"

I've got nothing against Mom&Pop stores, local business startups, THAT sort of Capitalism; the sort of Capitalist Enterprise that actually DOES award innovation and inspiration. Am not an ideologue, believing that everyone HAS TO in lock-step join the Kholkoz {Collective Farm}. Lots of room for varieties of local economies and smaller-scale financing.

BUT, on the OTHER hand: the Monopolies, Trusts, Corporations, Conglomerates, Multi-Nationals, Hostile Takeovers, whatever you want to call it, are THE DEATH OF SMALLER BUSINESSES; and THE ENVIRONMENTAL AND SOCIAL DEATH OF THE ENTIRE PLANET.

INSTEAD OF Public Services, such as HEALTH CARE FOR ALL THE PEOPLE; under THIS sort of Capitalism/CRAPITALISM, we have lots and lots and lots of "Talking Barbie Dolls". The must-have-it toy-of-the-moment, eventually mostly going into OVERFLOWING LANDFILLS, landfills OVERFLOWING WITH CRAPITALIST-GENERATED TRASH; so people thru mass-advertising campaigns can be persuaded to buy the NEXT useless-object-cheaply-produced-by-degraded-labor-in-a-country-other-than-the-United-States. {And produced from irreplaceable Natural Resources, on top of that; often RAPED from that very same poverty-stricken country!}

This is a PERFECTLY LOGICAL THESIS that CHECKS OUT when the FACTS ARE LOOKED INTO. Not a rant by a "Commie". CHECK IT OUT. VERIFY IT. Or not. Tear OFF the thick veil and blurry fog of Crapitalist Propaganda!

Thru Progressive Taxation, the surplus from things we ACTUALLY PRODUCE in this country, could go for all the things that benefit ALL THE PEOPLE; Health Care for All; Continuing Education for All; Decent Housing for All; Mass Transportation and Bicycles and FEWER cars; Infrastructure; Cleanly-produced Energy; help for Organic Agriculture; Information Networks and Arts and Community Festivals and oh-so-many-things that the CRAPITALISTS ARE NOW DOING THEIR VERY BEST, in their OWN selfish money-making huge-profit-taking interests, TO DESTROY.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 6:29 pm
You cannot currently send a star to BMutiny because you have done so within the last week.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 2:11 am
BMutinyThemIDefy,

I understand that most companies and most corporations are more like Potter than the Baileys. We totally agree on that point, particularly the insurance and financial services industry.

But I would like to offer, for what it's worth, an alternative reason for the jobs leaving our shores.

As government raised corporate taxes and requirements, businesses discovered that they could be substantially more profitable by moving to other countries. The expense of making a product somewhere else at a much cheaper cost was still more profitable even after transporting the goods, paying the duty, and selling them back in the US.

All business taxes are paid by the customer. As the economy became global, raising prices to offset government taxes and mandates resulted in lower sales. Businesses were driven out because they were trying to survive. Competition from manufacturers in other countries that were not subject to the same mandates and taxes created an environment where the only way to level the playing field was to move to the field where your competitors were playing. Why congress didn't realize that in advance, I really don't know.

That said, I totally agree with your thoughts on small businesses and objections to big corporations. I drastically prefer small business. But, does anyone other than me think that maybe, just maybe, if small business is better, why wouldn't small government be better? The Federal Government is probably the largest "corporation" in America. As citizens we get to vote, but does that give us any more power than the proxy vote of a shareholder? A little, since shareholders don't get a lot of control over management and we get to elect our representatives, who for the past few years seem to be the same as whoever they replaced. For those of you that voted for the winners in the most recent election, do you feel represented?

End big! It worked for my waistline and it will work for both companies and gov't. The growth of the Federal Gov't matches the growth of megacorps. Big gov't produces big companies, matter of fact I think Congress would prefer all large companies. Everything they seem to do is designed to help the large over the small.

One last thought, wouldn't a country made up of a small Federal Gov't with more powerful competing state gov't be in everyone's interest. I never can understand why so many, who object to war, support a large federal government. When was the last time a State declared war on another country? Seems to me, if you want a less aggressive military posture, reduce the size of the Federal Gov't. Just an early morning, pre-espresso, thought...

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 8:44 am
Paul, wouldn't you agree that the reason our Congress and the President are unresponsive to their constituents is BECAUSE of private business. They are shills placed in office by corporations. They are not "Representatives" they are corporate employes and investors. it is because of corporate business sticking their noses in government business that we have such a huge military budget. Every single person int eh bush administration was profiting off the wars. I am sure it is the same with this administration. The Constitution has separation of church and state. We neeed separation of business and state. Government should be striclty run by the poeple NOT corporations. We need to take corporations' "personhood" away that was stupidly granted to them. They do NOT have thr right to lobby. That is a right granted to INDIVIDUALS and NOT corporations. We need to throw their butts out of our government. At the town halls the nut jobs declared "Keep the government out of my Medicare", well I am declaring "Keep the corporations out of my government!"
The purpose of any government is to govern. It is a central place where people decide on rules of society and elect people to represent them and act on those agreed upon rules. It is to set standards for a society, keep it healthy and functioning and keep things fair and protect peoples' rights.
Government should should not tell me what I can and cannot sell as a busines owner but businesses should not tell my government to not provide basic rights and necessitites to its taxpaying citizens.
Government is ther to make sure basic rights, that the poeple in the society agree to (not what coproations agree to. They are NOT people they are things, entities!), are protected.
So, since you think capitalism should rule a basic right like healthcare then do you think we should privatize the police, schools,libraries, waste management, roads, fire department, etc...
These are all basic needs for a society to stay healthy and function properly. Why isn't healthcare in that mix? Isn't it a basic need of a society to stay healthy and function? Studies have shown that societies, you know the compassionate and civilized ones, who have universal healthcare, their citizens are more productive. WOW, what a concept. keep people healthy and more of them work. Meet their basic needs, no matter what thier salary, and more of them work and are more productive.
Instead, greed is rampant in the US and lieing is a second language. Money is the first language.
THAT is a govenment's fundtion. It is also to protect its citizens from outside threats and more importantly, inside threats of big corporations dominating the entire economic system and its people. Because when they do, as they have done, peoples' rights are violated. THAT is when govenrment is supposed to step in. Government is us. That is how Americans should be voting. Who represents your ideas and values? NOT who makes the most money and who does the corporate media make popular, as so many use as a measure to vote. Americans are just as much responsible for this mess.
government makes sure basic needs are met to keep the society healthy and functioning and protect people and theri rights. THAT is why police, fire department, education, wate management, etc. are all SOCIAL"IZED! YES! i said the word for all you paranoid Americans who believe people should die based on their income.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 9:46 am
You cannot currently send a star to Paul because you have done so within the last week.

Paul following your thinking makes me wonder how "We" seem to only elect legislators who's thinking is so contrary to "Common Sense"... Gr$$d has no conscience, is so full of self, and so, that mentality lays waste to those who are, in some instances, conveniently, perceived as Malingerers, dead weight! Having had an up close and impersonal experience with certain health care Providers/Insurers I can tell you, less one, in eight nightmare years, the claims examiners and underlings could only concentrate on one thing. Their job and or that bonus!

One claims examiner, who really hated treating people like so much garbage, especially those who were far from malingerers, told me, on the sly, the truth! This person enlightened DTDN with the fact that the insurer, for every dollar denied the injured, had that many more to invest. And invest they were! Makes you wonder, with all that money they had access too, saved from one denial after another, how Insurance companies like AIG, failed? Or did they? This individual also said that the claims examiner that many of the injured and ailing had such a god awful experience with, received a $10,000.00 bonus for her efforts.

Common Sense seems to be a forgotten talent! What goes around will come around, though. It's only a matter of time! Anyway dear Paul, thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight! We all have a learning curve when it comes to the bigger picture that seems to being taking some, through no fault of their own, down that proverbial Prim Rose Path!

With all that's turned this nation upside down I would still bet on American's such as yourself to find a way to set the record straight!

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 9:48 am
You cannot currently send a star to BMutiny because you have done so within the last week.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 9:49 am
We need to take corporations' "personhood" away that was stupidly granted to them. They do NOT have thr right to lobby. That is a right granted to INDIVIDUALS and NOT corporations. We need to throw their butts out of our government. At the town halls the nut jobs declared "Keep the government out of my Medicare", well I am declaring "Keep the corporations out of my government!"

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 12:23 pm
Wow, first of all, thank you for allowing a guy who is an admitted capitalist in the discussion, and I really mean that. I have come to respect all of you over the past few months since I joined Care2 and was not sure whether there would be an opportunity for a meeting of the minds. I sorta figured that I make a good target, but you have all pretty much let me say what I think and discussed your viewpoints without rancor. We share the same goals, at least based on what everybody comments on, but we differ in the solution. I'm not sure I have a solution and Barbara, thank you for thinking of me as knowledgeable, but I am probably not as knowledgeable as many of you. I just have a different perspective and background. Maybe as these discussions continue on various threads, we'll find the elusive method that gets everyone health care, reduces the power and influence of big corporations, holds governmental accountable, and changes society in a way where there is more positive than negative. I'm not sure Gov't is the solution, and that's where the biggest difference in perspective may be.

The problem in having that discussion, is that we are all passionate about various things and it can be difficult to see the beginning of a paragraph when it makes us want to scream. Talking about myself, but I bet we all have seen things in the Care2 Forum that make us wonder if the human species wasn't a mistake, Jill P brought up a lot of issues so rather than write a book, I'll just address one, hopefully without losing whatever respect you all have for me. With that said, try to make it past the first sentence of the next paragraph....

While I am completely in agreement that corporations should not be allowed to use their money to lobby, under our current system I believe that there is no choice. When our country was founded, and Boston held the original Tea Party (no I am not a tea party guy, at least not the new one) one of the slogans that unified the people was "No taxation without representation". If you want to end any justification that corporations have to participate in Gov't, then end all corporate taxation. If they pay taxes, they can justify representation. Sounds like a real giveaway to corporations, but it isn't, because who pays corporate income tax. Basic answer is the corporations, and while that is true, where does the money come from? It comes from business income, mainly sales of services or products. The consumer pays a higher price so that the corporation can pay income taxes. Raise corporate taxes and you will raise prices. Wtthout a consumer, there is little to no business income, clearly consumers, like us, are the source for the corporate income tax.

We are typing on a computer made by a major corporation who paid corporate taxes on the income they earned when they sold it. Still applicable if you are at the library, somebody paid the tax for the computer you are typing on. In my case, Apple.

I believe that big government and big corporations feed off each other and support each other. While we hear our representatives say that they will represent us during campaigns, they suddenly represent corporations after they are elected. An example is the appointment of a Monsanto guy from a candidate who was solidly supported by environmentalists. Id give a Bush example, but why bother. Heck, the VP was Halliburton. We could talk about Chris Dodd and Countrywide, or just about anybody up there.

Greed is a big part of the problem, but there are different types of greed. Corporations are run by people who are greedy for money and power. Big Government is run by people who are greedy for power and money. Just a difference in priority. I don't think it's a military industrial complex, it's bigger than that. It is a big gov't/big business complex and the products include military hardware as well as pharmaceuticals, telephones and cell service, insurance, banking, etc. They attack each other publicly and share cigars and port at their exclusive clubs privately. Feeding off of each other, they lead all of us to support one, or the other, while they benefit and we get a Migraine.

The meetings are behind closed doors and they trade tax levels with contribution levels to candidates and gov't support and subsidies buy the corporations while corporations buy the politicians. The income tax system is about control, something politicians love because it divides their opposition. That would be people like us. The poor believe the rich are the problem and the rich complain about the poor. What if both came together and said, Enough! The reason why the rich love high tax brackets is they know how to dodge them. We get the impression that they pay a penalty for high income, and to a certain extent they do, but with appropriate and legal planning they can dodge many taxes. Anybody remember Teresa Heinz Kerry's income and tax return. Wasn't it around $5.5million a year tax free from Municipal Bonds?

The reason Congress loves the income tax is that it gives them control by how they hand out deductions and it give them the ability to divide the people. When they raise rates on high incomes, they say how much they are helping the rest of us, even though they often hand out deductions at a rate just as quickly. Govt't and corporations play their citizens and consumers and we often don't even know it. When politicians brag about how they are nailing the corporations with an increase in income tax rates, we pay those taxes for them through higher prices and, as an added bonus, we get to pay our taxes too...

Hope I didn't offend anyone and feel free to disagree, not that you need permission.....

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 1:04 pm
Single payer Expanded Medicare for All HR 676, the ONLY economical and humane way to go.
This if from the PEN
A couple weeks ago the Democratic Senate Committee put out a video
called "I'm A Democrat, And I'm A Republican" (itself a play on the
cultural icon Mac ads), begging us for more campaign contributions
based on the premise that even 60 votes in their caucus is not enough
to pass a decent bill. So we decided to produce a series of our own
issue advocacy satire videos, to propagate the truth that NEITHER the
Democrats NOR the Republicans want real health care reform. And you
can watch the first one on this page.

Medicare For All Fax Action Page:
http://www.peaceteam.net/action/pnum1020.php

And from the same action you can also send a fax (for no charge) to
all your members of Congress (or special new advocacy capability)
calling for the passage of Medicare for All, instead of the
ridiculous sell out to medical corporation special interests that
barely squeaked out of the House over the weekend, and only at the
additional price of a total betrayal of a woman's right to choose.

For this special fax action there is a prepared petition text which
you can read on the page above, calling on Congress to get serious
about doing something the American people all want, and pass to
economical and efficient Medicare for all. But you can still add any
personal comments of your own you like.

And if you are represented by any member of the Congressional
so-called Progressive Caucus, you might tell them how profoundly
ASHAMED of them you are, given that outside of the courageous
exceptions of Dennis Kucinich and Eric Massa not one of others voted
against this terrible, awful bill (HR 3962). Remember back in June
they all signed a letter that they would only support a bill with a
"robust" public option. Instead they all voted for a total corporate
insurance take over of our national health care system, and they were
so anxious to sell out any principle they ever claimed to have, that
they threw a woman's right to choose under the bus along the way.

Please take careful note we said a CORPORATE take over of health
care. Because the only thing more dishonest that the Democrats
claiming there is some kind of meaningful public option in the bill
are the Republicans braying that it is a government take over. It is
not "socialized" medicine as the "one smear fits all" demagogues on
the right shout, but instead capitalist medicine, with the most
feeble possible public plan they thought they could pass off to the
American people.

And of course, nobody expects the Senate to turn it into something
better. Instead, it will be a monumental struggle now to even derail
the horrible anti-choice provision, which dictates that after a woman
is forced to buy one of the official overpriced insurance exchange
plans, even if she paid for it with 100% of her own money, that
provider cannot cover the expense of an abortion.

For those who argued we should just pass SOMETHING, even if it was a
bad bill, because they said we could fix it later, this is what you
get from a strategy of perpetual compromise, a bill that is utterly
beyond redemption. It's time to throw HR 3962 in the medical waste
bin, and do what should have been done in the first place, build a
new national health care system on what actually DOES work, by
extending the existing economical and efficient Medicare plan to all
ages.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 1:24 pm
Great spot, it was a little broken up so a bunch of people must be watching it. Add a couple of insurance CEOs and it fits my description of the problem. I'm thinking there's a better way than trying to get the big gov't big corp system to work for us. Not sure what it is yet, but I think it starts by reducing both big government and big corporate power.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:23 am
Here's another thought, for what it is worth. Bigger is not better whether it is business or government. Focusing on issues at the state level reduces the impact of business and increases the power of voters.

Jill P, in your comment you asked, "So, since you think capitalism should rule a basic right like healthcare then do you think we should privatize the police, schools,libraries, waste management, roads, fire department, etc... "

First, I don't think capitalism should be a basic right, it is a basic right and the only system where Gov't does not dictate the actions of it's citizens. Let's look at the police, schools, libraries, waste management, roads and fire departments. In that list, with the exception of police and roads, all are not at the federal level. Police in the form of the FBI, DEA, CIA, Homeland Security, etc., are Federal and they enforce Federal Laws. Roads in the form of Interstates are Federal. However, the vast bulk of police and roads are not Federal. They operate at the City, County, and State level. That's where I think health insurance belongs.

Let's take a look at AIG, which got a massive bailout and whose CEO s crying the blues about Federal restrictions on his paycheck. AIG is/was a major financial services holding company that made some really bad financial moves and lost a boatload of money. However, AIG's subsidiaries, like American General Life Insurance Company, are still financially strong. Why? Because insurance is primarily regulated at the State level, at least when it comes to the companies themselves. Federal laws, like the anti-trust exemption, have a major impact on how they operate, but the states regulate the insurance company itself. States require insurance companies to maintain minimum reserves and when AIG messed up, these reserves prevented a bailout of all of their subsidiaries. The Democrats, like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, want to Federalize the insurance companies which, in my opinion, is extremely foolhardy. It would have made any bailout, fifty times more expensive. I was and am against the bailouts, and I trust the state regulators more than the federal ones.

Congress is too far removed from the people and can get away with a lot more than your state legislators. In addition, the states can try different approaches to health care and because, at a certain level, they compete with each other, when one figures the best way to provide coverage to it's residents, the others will follow suit.

Just my opinion, but that's a little more of the reason why I oppose any governmental health care plan.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:28 am
BMutinyThemIDefy - "THAT'S why the Advertising Industry came about -- to CONVINCE US TO BUY GOODS WE DIDN'T NEED"

Scott's Fertilizer is all the proof we need to see the truth in your statement. Everyone seems to want a green lawn with no "weeds", why I don't know. I sorta like dandelions, african violets, and clover giving the yard color. Thanks to Scott's the runoff from peoples yards is clogging our waterways with algae and making the fish either die or grow interesting things on their bodies.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 7:44 am
So you want to do away with Medicare because it is healthcare at the federal level.
Leaving it up to states still leads to inequality. Vocational Rehabilitation is in every state. it is a GOVERNMENT RUN agency that provides services and adaptive equipment for people with disabilities. It is federal money but state run. So sicne the feds don't really watch over them, it's up to the states, the states do whatever they want. Florida and California VR is very good. Georgia and Alabama are denying clients services and goods needed becaue they have such disdain for the disabled. They seem them as "bums" and "moochers".
In Florida we were able to get our home modified for a wheelcahir.
In Georgia my husband, in 7 years, has yet to see the Master bedroom and never will. He can't sleep there. They rused to mocify his van even though we bought the van and we alrready had a wheelchair lift from Florida we needed to take from the old van and put it in the new van. We saved them a lot of money. We had to pay for the transfer as well. Georgia is the worse place to live in the United States if you are elderly or disabled. That is not just by our experience but we spoke to the vendors and they deal with Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Georgia is the worse. If we had the money we would move again. Far away from the South!
We reported them to the Feds. They were investigated and found many many violations. Nothing has changed. Georgia has no clue that they LOST the Civil War. They don't feel they have to abide by any laws.
Paul then you would support the Bill in the Senate for single payer but the states run the system. Georgia would like it too, i am sure. They can pocket that money too.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 8:17 am
No, i wouldn't support Federal Funding even if the State runs it. I would support State funding of State programs. They tend to manage things better when the people who contribute the money are down the street. Most states do a less affective job on the "free" money they get from the Federal Gov't. The rules attached to Federal money result in a multitude of issues which are harmful to the average person who needs the help. In addition, there are unnecessary costs created by the funds being gathered at the Federal level and then sent to the States for administration. Just my opinion, but based on the observation that none of the existing programs have worked the way congress thought they would.

As far as Medicare, I don't want to do away with it, but I do think it will be phased out or be greatly reduced at some point in the future. The unfunded liabilities of this program are growing exponentially and this growth is being ignored. There will come a time when there are simply too many obligations and the feds will cut the benefits. Incidentally, that is how they keep the big number off the Federal Budget. Because thee "obligations" are based on current law and projections, they can be changed by congress. Since congress can change the benefits or qualifications for benefits, they technically aren't obligations. That needs to be addressed sooner rather than later and Bush, Clinton and the first Bush had many opportunities to address this issue but didn't have the guts. Personally, of the mistakes Bush made, not addressing the anticipated shortfalls of Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid may be the biggest but he had enough mistakes that there may be competition for that prize...

The original programs for both Social Secur9y and Medicare/Medicaid did not anticipate longer life expectancy and a drop in birth rates. As fewer workers pay the benefits of existing retirees and others who qualify due to disability, these programs are rapidly becoming insolvent. As that date nears, Congress will end up having no choice but to cut benefits. They can't print but so much money. i don't like the situation, just talking about what has happened. incidentally, high unemployment reduces the contributons that these programs budgeted for 2009. It will be even worse when those numbers come in.

I would agree that there is a health care, social security, and medicare/medicaid emergency that is growing. Adding new obligations to these plans will accelerate their collapse. I don't have a solution, but we need to find one and it seems to me that letting the States experiment with one or more hopefully finding a solution, is better than an "all-in" bet with the same folks that didn't handle this well in the first place.

Having grown up in Florida and with relatives all over the Southeast, I know exactly what you are talking about and hate hearing that you are going through it. It is appalling that something like that can happen in the US, or anywhere else for that matter. There are states that will not do the right thing and some that will try but not get it right. I don't know a solution, but there is one and I have more confidence in local gov't than Federal. I would favor a system for chronic illnesses and rehsbilitation, possibly at the Federal level. We have never done that well, and the medicaid recovery laws in the petition I signed last week are a good example of a federal program that harms the very people that it should help. Laws like that encourage people not to work or do the things that they need to do to survive.

You know much more about the proposals in the Senate and House than I do. Will single payer help your situation even if it is run by the Feds? I thought it would only provide the type of insurance that covers doctors and hospitals, but I haven't had time to actually read the bill at that level of detail. Do they address chronic illness and long term care? I'm asking because I really don't know....