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BAN PUPPYMILLS IN AUSTRALIA!! New Petition to PM Kevin Rudd


Animals  (tags: AnimalCruelty, animalrights, dogs, suffering, puppmills, australia, petition )

Nadia
- 2437 days ago - thepetitionsite.com
Please ban all puppy farming or back yard breeding as you could call it, which is not monitored strictly by local and animal health authorities.Save our animals from imprisonment and inhumane cruelty and allow them the opportunity to live a wondeful life



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Comments

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 2:33 am
Me note and sign petition. Me told them off too. Then nasty cow petition came up me sign it too. Not good to eat bad cow. And me signed more petitions. Lot petitions here me was told and me find this true.

Puppy in this pic is not good. This puppy not happy. This puppy sick. Why people let puppy get sick. Puppy need knots cut out of hair and bath and medicine. Puppy need love and good home.

Human need to stop buying from puppy mill and puppy store. This mean. People breed more puppy this way and shelter puppy gets gas chamber. If human stop buying from mill and store puppy be happy.
 

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 2:33 am
Nadia good woman. Cheshire Cat Approve!
 

Nadia Donato (476)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 2:55 am
Please visit site, sign this new petition, and help spread the word...

I have been in touch with the petition author and she was nice enough to quickly change the target. Apparently, this story was all over the news in Australia. It's sad but the reality is Australia has the same problem with puppymills as the US... as do most countries. Reminder to all: DON'T BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE. IF YOU BUY YOUR DOG FROM A PET STORE, LIKE IT OR NOT, YOU'RE SUPPORTING A PUPPY MILL!!!

Here's what I just posted in another news thread:

More about puppy mills in Australia:

http://www.saynotoanimalsinpetshops.com/articles.html

Some excerpts from the site:
("Where Do Pet Store Puppies Come From?" written by www.helpinganimals.com in the USA. Sadly the situation is not that different in Australia.) Most puppies sold in stores come from breeding "farms" called "puppy mills," where mother dogs and "studs" spend lonely lives in small filthy cages, producing litter after litter... Legislation is never as powerful as the consumer. If you won't buy because you don't agree with the business practices then the business owner has no choice at all. If you buy.. you are directly responsible for creating the demand to put more puppies in the same situation. The pet shop owner is not to blame. YOU ARE. You create the demand. You prove by your actions what business practices you support. Your words mean nothing. Your money is everything to the business decision. Choose wisely."

Clover Moore, an MP from Australia introduced a bill back in October to ban pet stores from selling animals... nothing has happened yet. I urge all Aussie Care2 members to support her and push this bill into law as this will significantly stop most (if not all) puppymills and help the number of animals being subjected to much cruelty.

A new documentary was released out of Australia in December titled "The Puppy Mill." Here's the movie's website: http://www.thepuppymill.com.au/

Here's one of the film reviews: http://dogstardaily.com/blogs/puppy-mill

Encouraged by the number of pet stores in the US that no longer sell pet animals, Wolfenden is eager to share what he has learned with his friends and fellow Australians. Stores like Petco and PetSmart do not sell pets and often encourage people to adopt their pets from local rescue groups and shelters. They facilitate this process by holding regular “adoptathons” to showcase these pets to prospective owners.

Wolfenden’s intention for this documentary is to educate people about the real issues and what they can do to help. “People are losing touch with the animal world,” he states. “They purchase dogs like handbags and cleaning supplies and think they are “rescuing” dogs when they purchase them from a pet store.” He challenges pet owners and animal lovers to inform and educate themselves on these issues and implores them to do research, gather statistics, check out the internet forums, and visit with local authorities, shelters and clubs to find out what is happening locally. Ultimately, he hopes The Puppy Mill will inspire us to improve the life of man’s best friend through education, advocacy and legislation.
 

Nadia Donato (476)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 2:57 am
I just saw your comment, Peppermint... and so are you. Me thank you lots! :-)
 

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 3:12 am
Me just look at all links. I like this

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man." Mahatma Ghandi (1869-1948)


This true. And America is at the bottom of the ocean. There's lot of abuse to animals in America. We drowning ourselves. This is worse now thanks to diaper boy Bush. Me tell all you again Bush need diapers changed he full of poo-poo. He make this worse than ever. Me also say again buy from shelter or find homeless animal on streets for pets. Not make puppy mill and puppy store happy and rich. We need to get rid of puppy mill and puppy store.

Me go find something to note now.
 

Pam F. (227)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 3:19 am
Signed,and commented,thanks,Nadia.

BTW - I'm interested to know - who was the original target of the petition?
 

Nadia Donato (476)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 3:55 am
Thanks, Pam. The original target was "1,000" or whatever the signature goal was... the usual error. But, her petition letter was to the PM, so I emailed her and asked for her to change the target.
 

Anne T. (287)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 3:57 am
Signed. Thanks Nadia.
 

Elena P. (549)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 5:52 am
Signed as well. Thank you!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 6:34 am
Signed thanks Nadia
 

Cher Away Moving (1470)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 6:44 am
Noted and signed
Thnx Nadia!!
 

Simone D. (1485)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 8:07 am
Thanks Nadia bringing this to everyone's attention. Noted and signed.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 8:08 am
Am chalenged to say that term inhumane cruelty is so wrong. Methapor for brutality, morbid and sick cruelty should be right HUMAN CRUELTY!!! And term inhumane cruelty, should be metaphor for mercy almost!!
 

. (0)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 10:41 am
Noted and petition signed with thanks, Nadia.
 

Sharon Ecker (4)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 12:32 pm
i agree with what every one above had said. the animals should bee treated farily and not like shich, to be used and abused. they have right as do we. animal back yard breeding will do them more harm then good. lisen to the people they love them and we all know that this is bad for the dog(s) health.
 

Joycey B. (750)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 1:11 pm
This poor dog is so pathetic looking. How can anyone do this to an animal. Signed and noted with thanks Nadia.
 

Vijay Tankha (28)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 4:00 pm
Thanks Nadia. More people like you are truely needed in this ruthless world.
 

Darlene K. (367)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 8:22 pm
Noted and Petition signed, thank you.
 

Sherri O. (257)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 9:10 pm
The picture of this poor wee dog made me feel ill. Scum that resort to puppy mills to make a living must be incredibly lazy and dim-witted, never mind cruel. Petition was signed, as all of them that come my way are.
 

Pam F. (227)
Thursday February 21, 2008, 11:37 pm
Thanks,Nadia.
 

Karen M. (176)
Friday February 22, 2008, 3:28 am
Signed!
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 4:55 pm
Thanks, Nadia!

Peppermint Twisted, It's not good to eat GOOD cows, either! Please read about slaughterhouses, and then make a decision to not only go all the way with vegetarianism, but even to go VEGAN! www.animalacres.org and www.veganpeace.com.
 

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Friday February 22, 2008, 5:06 pm
Me see Susie Comment. Me say plant has feeling too. Me think all life has feelings. You not hear the plants scream when you eat them? Plants reproduce, breath, grow, etc... plant not different than animal or human.

Me think Breatharianism is what Susie need. Breatharianism only drink water and live off air. Me not mad at Susie. Susie try to help.

http://healing.about.com/od/breatharian_diet/Breatharianism.htm

 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 22, 2008, 5:33 pm
peppermint, we have to eat something and plants do not have souls, if you can prove that plants have feelings then show me and I will gladly live off of water and air!!
 

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Friday February 22, 2008, 5:58 pm
Me not being ugly me just try to understand.

Me not know if plant has soul. Me not know if animal has soul. Me not know if human got soul. Nobody can prove if anything has soul. Can you prove if human and animal got soul. Maybe plant has soul. Can you prove plant not have soul.

Me think all living things got a soul. Me feel that if it can be born, reproduce, eat, breathe, drink and die it got a soul.

People eat plant. Plant have babies: reproduction. So, Plant born, grow, reproduce, breathe air, eat, drink water and die just like human and animals. Plant not different than animal or human. Plant is alive and breathing like human and animal.

Why it ok to eat plant and not animal. Plant can feel too. Me can hear plant scream when tree cut down, people eat plant, people pull weeds and cause plant to die. Me not understand difference.

Me just need help to understand difference when plant grows, gives birth, breaths, eats, drinks water and dies. Plant is live living thing too. Why people not care about plant life too.

Nobody care about plant just animal. Me think different.

Me try Breatharianism. Me got sick. Me agree we have to eat something. Then me start to think about all things. Me believe humans are animals. We in animal kingdom. Some animals eat meat to survive - why that not cruel. If some animals eat meat then why not humans cause human animal too.

Then me think about plants. Me think they alive just like human and animals.

Me not being ugly me just try to understand. Me not try to make people mad. Me try to make friends. But me make people mad at me. Me sorry. Me leave Care2 if want. Me not wanna leave Care2. Other meat eaters at Care2. Me just don't want people mad at me cause me believe that plant has life too.
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 6:20 pm
Peppermint Twisted, my friend just sent me the following. It's from his book:



Aren’t Plants Living Things?

You talk about having a diet where you avoid killing any living thing. But what about plants? Plants are living things and you kill them.

Scientifically speaking, a plant-based food is not a sentient being, does not have an innate, emotional inclination to avoid bodily harm or death, does not have a nervous system, and, therefore, does not actually feel pain.

Philosophically speaking, it’s safe to say that Mother Nature, in her infinite wisdom, would never bestow upon a living thing the capacity to feel pain without also giving it the ability to engage in a fight or flight response to the imminent threat or actual experience of pain.

Practically speaking, I've yet to see any irate celery stalks or bell peppers jump up from the cutting board and run out of my kitchen lately! Such is clearly not the case with the 50 billion farm animals around the world who meet their fate in the slaughterhouse every year.

Bobby Rock
www.veggiezone.com


Hope this helps a bit, Peppermint Twisted!

No one is "mad at" (angry with) you, although I must say that the twisted writing style you've chosen is pretty distracting if you're trying to get across a highly serious point.

No one is even SUGGESTING you leave Care2, and of course there are other meat-eaters in Care2. It's just the hope of SOME of us that people will finally get educated as to the atrocities ALL our voiceless friends are forced to suffer because most humans still don't know enough.

Being a part of Care2 can be such a good teacher, so hang in there, okay?

 

Peppermint Twisted (27)
Friday February 22, 2008, 7:27 pm
Ok me look at site for help. But it not help yet. This why:

Do you kill mosquitoes when they land on you and bite you too. Me do. Me kill mosquitoes when they land on me and bite me. If you get a roach in your home will you kill it too. It's alive. You put roach outside it comes back inside. You put roach back outside it comes back inside. You not want house infested with roaches - so kill a roach. If you never had a mosquiteo to bite then come visit me - you'll love it! And me dare you to kill one! You not have roach in house - then me put one in your house to see how you react.

You said "You talk about having a diet where you avoid killing any living thing. But what about plants? Plants are living things and you kill them."
So you admit that plants are alive - see you kill too. You admit plant is alive and kill them. You eat a live living thing. Plants breathe. If plant can grow, have babies, eat, drink, breathe and die then why human think plant different than animals. Plant is ALIVE right.

Me think the KEY WORD IS ALIVE. Not sentient being. [ALIVE means living or life. Right or Wrong.]

Scientist not discovered all about plants. Scientist have not discovered everything. Scientist discover new things everyday.


Scientist not all agree. Not all philosophers agree. Not all experts agree. So which is correct - we not know. We only guess and believe the ones that make sense to each of us. This paragraph right or wrong.


Me still confused. Humans are animals. Some animals eat other animals. Is this right or wrong.

If human is animal and other animals eat other animals then why not human animal eat animal. Are we not animals too. This is debatable. Some don't believe that humans are animals -- you speak of science.. most scientist agree we are animals and put us in the animal kingdom a long time ago.

Me not like unnecessary killings. Like setting dogs on fire. Drowning cats. Testing on animals -- this not right - this unnecessary. Meat not being eaten. If meat is eaten then me think ok cause we do have to eat something to survive... meat or plant. But me not like roach or mosquitoe biting me. Me will kill roach or mosquitoe.

Me can hear all scream in pain when this happens. Killing me mean.

You say "I must say that the twisted writing style you've chosen is pretty distracting if you're trying to get across a highly serious point." Me sorry. Me talk like this. Me say I sometime but not natural. Me write the way me think and me think like me write. You do too. This just me. Me serious in getting point across but some not understand.


This good nobody mad for having me own opinion. Me entitled to own feelings and opinions. Me just wanna make friends and have conversation. This good thing. This make Cheshire Cat Grin and Approve! Me not mad.... me just wanna be happy and make others happy. Me wanna make all laugh and smile. This my goal in life. Laughter good for soul. All souls. Human, animal and plant.

Me will try to view website again and try to understand more - this why me ask. Me just have to ask questions to get answers.




 

Glenda P. (82)
Friday February 22, 2008, 7:38 pm
Signed and noted. I live in Australia and have witnessed a backyard breeder/ puppy/ kitten mill. The condition of the animals was horrific. I have notified the relevant authorities and will check to see if anything was done. My husband and myself came away in tears.
 

Gretchen Ryan (0)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:16 pm
It is true that some animals eat other animals, but humans thrive on plant-based diets and are at much less risk for obesity and disease, among many other benefits. Humans eating animals for food is unnecessary and therefore immoral.

In order to feel physical pain, one must have a brain and central nervous system. Anyone can see the difference between picking an apple or trimming the lawn and cutting off a puppy's tail or castrating a cow without anesthetic.

Anyone who cares about plant lives should eat no animal products because it takes up to 20 times the crops to feed a meat eater as a pure vegetarian (vegan). Animals must eat all there lives and are then killed and yield a very small quantity of calories. 90% of the plants in this country are fed to animals raised for human consumption.

I don't eat any animal products because factory farming is horrendously cruel, abuse is rampant and no one can call it natural. At all.

Peppermint Twisted, I had resistance too until I saw things like this: http://www.meat.org/ You clearly care about animals, this will help you understand this issue.

 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:26 pm
Dear Peppermint Twisted:

I will now share with my friend Bobby your response. It is HE, not I, who wrote what you are now addressing, so it's best I share with him, don't you agree?

HOWEVER, that said, I will comment on your very first paragraph above, and insert my comments WITHIN what you wrote. Here goes.........

Do you kill mosquitoes when they land on you and bite you too.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: No, I actually do NOT kill mosquitoes. I am a true vegan, and a pacifist, and therefore no, not under any circumstances, would I kill a mosquito. Really and truly.


Me do. Me kill mosquitoes when they land on me and bite me.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: It's sad that you don't just lightly brush off the poor mosquito, who is doing what Mother Nature, in part, created her to do.


If you get a roach in your home will you kill it too.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: Nope, I honestly would not kill a roach. A roach is AS important to me as a horse or a dog or a human being. So, no, I would not kill a roach. She has equal rights.



It's alive.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: No animal should ever be referred to as an "it." They deserve better than that. I don't objectify sentient beings. But anyway, yes, a roach inside my home would be, until his natural death, ALIVE. Not sure what you were getting at, actually.


You put roach outside it comes back inside. You put roach back outside it comes back inside.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: Well, that's not really the case. If I DID have a roach stuck inside my home, I'd make sure to find out why I'd attracted him or her in the first place, and then fix that problem. And you BET I'd carry out the roach to live out her time in freedom.


You not want house infested with roaches - so kill a roach.

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: I DON'T want a home "infested with roaches," so I keep my home CLEAN! It's really quite simple. No poisons necessary. None whatsoever.


If you never had a mosquiteo to bite then come visit me - you'll love it!

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: When I lived in a climate that shared its environment with mosquitoes, I did indeed occasionally get bit by one or more. I sure as heck didn't enjoy the itching I had to endure but, then again, that poor mosquito suffers a whole lot more than my temporary itchiness. I have no right in the world to decide a mosquito's fate.



And me dare you to kill one!

SUSIE'S RESPONSE: Don't bother DARING me, because I'm not going to kill ANYONE. No "tests" necessary.



You not have roach in house - then me put one in your house to see how you react.


SUSIE'S RESPONSE: Well, you're getting really, really silly here, and you know that. Besides, you don't know ME at all, so you cannot state how you may be SUGGESTING I'd respond. If you put a roach inside my home, I'd ask you WHY?! Why would you even BOTHER? But more importantly, I'd whisk up the roach and release her outside. Period.



As far as your having questions about Bobby's website, you can visit his site and address HIM with your questions. I don't speak for others, much less make any assumptions. What I earlier sent you was his email to me, 100% copied and pasted here.

Stay open-minded. It's great always learning new things, especially when it has to do with true compassion and respect.
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:46 pm
Hi, again, Peppermint Twisted! Hope you don't mind, but I'm copying and pasting a few other responses I've just now received from friends who prefer to remain anonymous.

Again, this is not intended as an "assault" on YOU, but more a way to TRY to get you to hopefully better comprehend what those of us who don't believe in killing are feeling. I find these posts pretty touching, and hope you will, as well.

So here's the first one, copied and pasted below:

Personally I dont have time to respond to such people. But here are a few true responses that I usually give to this outworn argument.

Compare animals and plants to humans and see a parallel:

All Mammals have central nervous systems, they have brains and sectors of the brain receive messages of pain from other parts of the body. More on the Central Nervous System. Mammals have hearts pumping blood through their veins.

Non-human animals have skeletons, livers, rods and cones, ear drums, uteruses and ovaries (if females, same with male parts), kidneys, bladders, flesh and all other body parts.

We are all animals so eating meat is a form of cannibalism and we eat other animals, we are eating our brother mammals.

Plants are a completely different specie. If they want to argue that plants feel pain, they argue then that they are in a totally different vector than we humans, we cannot hear their cries. Their central nervous systems are more difficult to relate to, whereas other mammals systems are the same as humans.

Vegetararians are just cutting out the middle man. The animals who meateaters eat, therefore, if they eat the animals who ate the plants, they are essentially eating plants too.

You are what you eat, touche.

So.. anyway,
Usually after all this, they stop claiming this stuff about plants.

And he makes a very good example of himself. These people who say this about plants, will only be satisfied if everyone lives on water and air, including themselves. I bet everyone of them eats plants. Afterall, there is soy (plant), wheat (plant), rice (plant), veggies (plant) and fruit (plant) in just about everything. (besides including meat)

So I hope this person is living on water and air alone. or cry hypocrit right back at 'em.
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:49 pm
And here's ANOTHER response I wish to share with you...........

Hi Susie, yes plants offer life also, but...ok the big but... It does not have a heart beat, I will not eat anything that has ever had a heart....you see with plants the vegetation of them is to be eaten...because the more you take from them the more they reproduce! Not so with an animal...once they have been killed there is no way they will regenerate and come back to life...they have a structure as we...they bleed and have feelings and a heart that pumps blood into their organs...not something to be eaten! Plants do not have nerve endings to feel with either,it really dosen't take a rocket scientist to know this, I think this person is just someone whom does not care about another life as so many do...it is so very hard to make people aware of this because they will always find fault with what is the truth, I find most people love to be lied to, they seem to believe that more, but if you really do care and do have a compassion for all life form then you would never eat meat, even if you have been a meat eater all your life...if you knew just how poorly all animals are treated weather it be a slaughter house or just a farm, the deaths that they have to endure for the sake of feeding some humans big belly is a disgrace...I know some will say it is about self preservation, well I say if I had to eat meat to survive then there would just be another dead soul, I would never do it, and trust me I have been without food many a time...

 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:53 pm
Yes plants offer life also, but...ok the big but...Plants do not have a heart beat, I will not eat anything that has ever had a heart....you see with plants the vegetation of them is to be eaten...because the more you take from them the more they reproduce and revegetate! Not so with an animal...once they have been killed there is no way they will regenerate and come back to life...they have a structure as we...they bleed and have feelings and a heart that pumps blood into their organs...not something to be eaten! Plants do not have nerve endings nor a brain to feel with either,it really dosen't take a rocket scientist to know this, I think some people just have to justify to themselves why they eat meat to feel better, because if they really faced the cold hard facts they would not be able to sleep at night, but then again some will very restful because they care nothing about another's life as so many do, most don't even think about it...it is so very hard to make people aware of this because they will always find fault with what is the truth, I find most people love to be lied to, they seem to believe lies more, but if you really do care and do have a compassion for all life form then you would never eat meat, even if you have been a meat eater all your life...if you knew just how poorly all animals are treated wheather it be a slaughter house or just a friendly farm, the deaths that they have to endure for the sake of feeding some humans big fat belly is a disgrace...I know some will say it is about self preservation, well I say if I had to eat meat to survive then there would just be another dead soul(me), I would never do it, and trust me I have been without food many a time, and for several weeks straight, one should it only eat very small portions for survival not for enjoyment or because it tastes good, most things that are so bad for your health are what tastes good, I get up every morning and make a scoopful of Planet Life Greens and drink that and it keeps me full all day, and it tastes like you have just ate a whole glass of barley and greens(YUCK) until late evening when I eat a bowl of oatmeal with water, no milk....and I do this every day and am healthier and have more energy now then I ever have...Noted!
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:54 pm
Hey, Peppermint Twisted! Here's a third response...........


I know this info isn't vegan, but it's a start. Here's a good one on GoVeg.com (at this link; http://www.goveg.com/veganism.asp):

Vegetarianism in a Nutshell

by Bruce Friedrich, PETA

There are very few choices in our day-to-day lives that make a significant impact on the world around us, but what we choose to eat does. Eating meat supports global poverty and worker abuse, harms the environment, supports cruelty to animals, and is bad for our health. Vegetarianism is the self-empowerment diet; at every meal, you have the opportunity to live your values—to cast your vote against cruelty to animals, environmental degradation, and global poverty—and you do that all while eating a diet that is better for you than one that includes meat.


Read more: http://www.goveg.com/veganism_health.asp


 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Friday February 22, 2008, 8:56 pm
And this same friend just sent me a little P.S., so hopefully you won't mind my including this one, as well........

Here it is!

“What about plants?”

There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain because they are devoid of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that animals are able to feel pain so that they can use it for self-protection purposes. For example, if you touch something hot and feel pain, you will learn from the pain that you should not touch that item in the future. Since plants cannot move from place to place and do not need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. From a physiological standpoint, plants are completely different from mammals. Unlike animals’ body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without dying.

If you are concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, you should know that a vegetarian diet is better for the environment than a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle. Rather than eating animals, such as cows, who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, you can save many more plants’ lives (and destroy less land) by eating vegetables directly.

http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 12:19 am
There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain because they are devoid of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains.

Animals are able to feel pain so that they can use it for self-protection purposes. For example, if you touch something hot and feel pain, you will learn from the pain that you should not touch that item in the future. Since plants cannot move from place to place and do not need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. From a physiological standpoint, plants are completely different from mammals. Unlike animal body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without dying.

The "screaming" that sensitive equipment has detected when plants are damaged is caused by movement of gasses. The cut releases the pressure allowing gases inside the plant to move towards the cut, making a noise as they do so.

Just for the sake of the argument, even IF plants did feel pain, the average meat eater causes ten times more plants being killed than the average vegetarian because all the animals that meat-eaters consume, eat huge amounts of plants themselves. It is unfortunate though, as we need plants in order to live. All beings with sentience must consume in order to survive. Meat and animal products, however, are absolutely elective and unnecessary - actually, they are detrimental to human health. IF at all, plants do feel pain, one can still be comforted by the fact that the plants are taken at the end of their lives and, as opposed to animals, are allowed to go through their life cycle under the sky as nature designed.

Please don’t take this as an agreement that plants do feel pain though, because it is not true. Unlike plants, all animals - from crustacean to mammal - avoid pain and seek comfort. This is motivational enough to treat other beings that we know that have the capacity to suffer, with as much compassion and consideration as we can.

If you are really concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, you should know that a vegetarian diet is better for the environment than a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle, rather than eating animals, such as cows, who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, you can save many more plants’ lives (and destroy less land) by eating vegetables directly.

The fruitarian diet is all the more better...

Thanks.
 

Laura P. (17)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 1:50 pm
Hi Peppermint Twisted, and anyone else reading -

For me, this debate basically comes down to three things.

1. We KNOW that animals feel pain and are capable of suffering. Therefore, we have a responsibility to not purposely cause them suffering. Whether or not it is possible for plants to feel in any way does not change this.

2. We need to eat in order to live.

3. It is technically possible to live without killing plants (fruitarianism - a diet in which you consume only plant parts that can be harvested without killing the plant), but nutritional science tells us that this is not an ideal diet for humans. I am not willing to sacrifice my health/wellbeing to avoid killing plants on the *slight* chance that they may be capable of some kind of suffering (athough all evidence suggests they are not). Nutritional science does, however, show that when done right, a vegan diet which includes vegetables is very healthy diet for humans. Therefore, that is my diet of choice.


I do have some additional thoughts, though.

You said something along the lines of, if some other animals eat meat, why not humans because we are animals too. The difference is that we have the ability to choose. With that ability comes the responsibility to try to make the best choices, the choices which cause the least suffering. We can be healthy without eating meat, and we have the ability to research the issue, think about it, and and make a choice.

Also, this issue goes beyond the choice to kill or not to kill. Tremendous cruelty is usually involved in producing animal products - even "free range", "humane" and "organic" ones. Even to obtain meat, this degree of suffering is unnecessary. I know people who choose not to eat animal products not because they disagree with breeding, using or killing animals altogether, but because they disagree with this cruelty.

You mentioned killing insects. I avoid killing insects whenever possible but I don't feel a discussion about when it is or isn't acceptable to kill insects is particularly relevent to this debate. I believe that the less harm we do, the better. Should we say that because we sometimes kill insects, that this gives us an excuse to kill and/or cause suffering to lots more animals - including animals that have complex brains and nervous systems, who we KNOW feel pain and suffering and even emotions? I say no.

In closing, I think this quote sums up the issue quite well:

"Buying meat, eggs, and dairy causes unnecessary suffering.
We can each choose not to cause this suffering." (Vegan Outreach)
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 1:59 pm


Good Morning/Good Afternoon, Peppermint Twisted!

"Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends....."

This morning, I had another emailed response to my quest to give really good answers to your challenges. Hope this helps you better understand where well-meaning folks like me are coming from. It's always a learning experience, which is why being a participant in Care2 is a smart thing. So hang in there, learn things, and keep enjoying your visits. Without further ado -- here's my latest......



Hi Susie,

I am a volunteer leafletter for vegan outreach and giving out around 50,000 booklets on college campuses each year, I get asked just about every question imaginable. The two points I would try to make with her are the following.

1) Although plants breathe, grow, and reproduce, they have no nervous system. Thus they cannot think nor feel. Animals, however, are exactly like us and have a highly complex nervous system, both a central nervous system-brain and spinal cord-to think, feel, and process, and a peripheral nervous system comprised of hundreds of millions of nerves designed to feel both tenderness and pain at the surface of our bodies.

and 2) Even if plants did have some extremely limited capacity to feel, a meat eater harms far more plants than a vegetarian. 77% of our corn, for example, is fed to livestock not people, and 70% of our grain and cereals as well. (Robbins-The Food Revolution pg. 292) And 55 square feet of rainforest are burned for every single imported hamburger, and we import 100,000,000 pounds of rainforest beef every single year, and that's only the US. (pg 256) (the estimate has been revised to 67 sq. ft.--but I'd have to find the source--but it is still 100 million pounds in 2007)


Good Luck,

Stewart

 

Mike H. (230)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 5:41 pm
I tip my hat to you peppermnint if you can hear the sounds of plants screaming. Your hearing must be far more developed than anyone I have ever heard of.
 

Laura P. (17)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 6:34 pm
After re-reading the first part of my comment, I have to amend it slightly. I said, "We KNOW that animals feel pain and are capable of suffering. Therefore, we have a responsibility to not purposely cause them suffering. Whether or not it is possible for plants to feel in any way does not change this."

That isn't quite accurate because, theoretically, if it was discovered at some point in the future (and I'm not saying this is actually possible) that plants had the same capacity for suffering as the animals we raise and kill for food, clothing, etc. - of course that would change things. I'm sure in this case I would not feel as strongly as I do that killing animals for food was so wrong, and I would feel that we must try to minimize the suffering to plants AND animals however we could, even if that meant killing some animals. (However - as several people have pointed out, a vegan diet would likely still cause less suffering.)

What I really meant is: Whether or not there is some possibility that plants can suffer, does not change the fact that we KNOW animals can - and do - suffer to produce meat, eggs, dairy, wool and other animal products. I feel we can only act on the information available to us now, not spend our lives worrying about what may or may not be known in the future. So I believe, based on what we know NOW, that we have a responsibility to not purposely cause suffering to animals.

Also, I agree with all the comments about plants not having nervous systems, etc. therefore not being able to feel...which makes this whole post kind of pointless, LOL. But I just wanted to clarify.
 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 11:32 pm


Wowie, Peppermint Twisted!

You are certainly getting an education here, eh?

Another friend of mine just sent me some notes she jotted down, and so I'm pasting THOSE here, as well.........



Some thoughts about people who ask, when they learn you don’t eat animals, about plants feeling pain. First of all, people who ask that question are very seldom asking it sincerely, because they are concerned about the plants, nor do they care about animals. They are asking it defensively, to make excuses for their own animal eating. If they actually cared about the plants feeling pain they would probably already be vegetarians because if they are that sensitive they would already be going that far. They area actually trying to find a way out for themselves, to justify meat eating by saying well, you eat plants and plants feel pain so why is it not ok for me to eat animals. My answer is yes, plants probably do feel some sort of pain and perhaps I should ideally be a fruitarian (which doesn’t kill the plant, but may or may not cause it pain) or maybe even more ideally a breatharian, if that were possible. But it’s not, at least not for anyone I have ever met. We need to eat something. And we know for a fact the horrors that happen to animals raised for food. Those same horrors don’t happen to plants. At least we can be pretty sure that plants aren’t raised in conditions that make them miserable their entire life. Animals do. They are taken away from their natural lifestyle, tortured throughout their lives, which plants aren’t. And we don’t actually know what kind or degree of pain plants feel. There is no question that animals feel genuine pain, fear, terror, and grief. Plants probably feel a different type of pain altogether. Which is not to say that we should disregard the pain of plants we eat. But the fact that we have to eat something doesn’t mean we can eat anything, and knowing for a fact what animals go through, we MUST refrain from eating them. And the fact that plants may feel pain doesn’t change this.

 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 11:36 pm



Wowie, wowie, Peppermint Twisted!

Here's part of ANOTHER email I just got from a neat friend.....

Hey, Susie.

Respond to
this person by saying something to the effect of, "As soon as a single scientist can find even a
hint of a nerve ending in plants, they, for all intents and purposes, do not feel PAIN (not
talking about "energy" here) and are therefore safe for me to harvest and eat. And BTW, thank you
sooooo very much for being 'big enough' to not be mad at me for having an opinion. Mighty white of
ya, Caveman. And if YOU hear screams when you mow your grass or pick an apple off a tree, I think
you should seek guidance."



Hug.
C


+++

This is one funny buddy!

 

Susie V Kaufman (99)
Saturday February 23, 2008, 11:40 pm


Peppermint Twisted, this is getting to be such great fun, because obviously so many of my friends genuinely care enough to ask me to send along their thoughts. No surprise, then, that here's another email I got tonight.....

Hi Susie,

For what it's worth, I usually tell people that make the plant argument, "You might be right. Plants might very well feel pain, but since I have to eat something, I go with the food that I can't hear scream."

Here is an article about the absurdity of plant pain... http://tabish.freeshell.org/animals/plantpain.html Hope it helps!

Take care,
J



 

Marisa Sebastian (130)
Tuesday February 26, 2008, 5:11 am
NADIA, thank you so much for the news and the petition. Noted, signed and commented. This is an issue that really, really bothers me and the sort of thing that makes you lose sleep. Thank you, really, very very much.
 

sandra b. (8)
Monday March 10, 2008, 4:46 pm
for the average person on planet Earth the term bretharianism is mostly science fiction. the practice is very rarely succesful..the closest achievement to common human is frutarianism. for successful practice of bretharianism exact level of vibration is required. the one must achieve a higher level of thoughts/feelings/PERCEPTION = vibration in order to function properly as we do now in our interaction with our foods = our level of consciousness/vibratory level/. so when you consider that we live in society where veganism or frutasrianism are still questioned /or judged/ from majority, and most of those who are practicing it are in similar state of mind as human carnivals /judging or questioning the higher options or cementing their own/, you can easily get to conclusion:we are moving slooooow (but, hey, we are moving and that is OK;)
....state of mind for efficient practice of bretharianism is very difficult to achieve while living in this modern mess. It requires persons peace and stamina that we only meet in the movies or fairy tales. maybe with repeated interaction of "god" or higher intelligence, fixing us and unlocking our genetic code for better vibratory flow, we can mass evolve so some other darvin can record on his own way our evolutionary steps. but from our place of stand, we can be happy if we even got our selfs out from carnival ism, and patiently and this is important:KIND & OPEN MINDED walk towards future.

so don't worry peppermint twisted, at least you have a loud hearth that is, even a bit confused (which one is not?!:), questioning it's own way on it's own way. if it is for any consolation, as long as you are sincere to yourself and others, I am not worried for your path on this planet at all.
..I believe you will become a vegetarian or even vegan. it is not difficult at all when you have clear definition or reason in your head. your hearth is questioning carnivalism(and that is good. always question everythyng with your hearth, and listen to it). and there is a reason for it. so listen. if you want to feel better.(I do;)// the reason is evolution... towards bretharianism in generations to come (if we don't destroy ourselfs before;)
don't worry. you ARE ok. worrying is like a brake.it slows you down.gives you doubts.there will always be different opinions.sail among them, listen & ask your hearth. don't let them crush you or make you their slave...and, yes, searching, reading & viewing meat/milk/diary problem (for now;), might help you a great deal in cementing your decision. it certainly did to me =o))

stay OK.

_*namaste*_


 

Laurel W. (20)
Monday March 10, 2008, 10:40 pm
Thanks for helping to shut down the mills.

There's a good book about a man in St. Luis MO, named Randy who has been successfully stopping the mills, breeders, and rescuing strays...
As 1 man he has made a huge contribution and much can be learned from him about how to go after the mills. He does direct action.
His books are very informative and you will never see dogs the same way.
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Talks-Dogs-Abandoned/dp/0312331045

We've got to stop the mills to save the shelter animals...This is an account of a dog who survived.
http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Dog-Quentin-Survived-Chamber/dp/1577790715/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/002-6015927-1561629
 

Melissa J. (1)
Thursday March 13, 2008, 3:48 pm
This just breaks my heart. I have bought three dogs all by registered breeders and the dogs were all great. We were lucky. But you are right there are millions out there that aren't so lucky and the fact that we as humans exploit other living creatures for profit just makes me sick to be a human being.
 

Peggy Holt (81)
Saturday March 15, 2008, 10:27 pm
sign and noted...thank you
 

avril k. (52)
Tuesday March 25, 2008, 6:12 am

Thank you! You signed at 12:56 AM PST, Feb 25, 2008
 

Elaine Robinson (131)
Wednesday December 17, 2008, 8:37 am
AV SIGNED Elaine
 

Cherry M. (143)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 11:11 am
Thank you, signed.
 
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