Saturday October 17, 2009, 4:27 am
I note the heavy irony in your title. I would remind you that Americans do not do irony and may fail to see the point.
Unfortunately we in the UK understand your point. In both 'Gulf Wars' our first casualties were caused by so called 'friendly fire' from our dear allies, the Americans. Their so called liberation of Iraq has resulted in the death of nearly one million of that countries citizens.
Pakistan should choose its bedfellows with care.

Saturday October 17, 2009, 6:14 am
Some of us do irony, David Gould, and the point is well taken. We had no business in Iraq, and we have no business in Pakistan, and particularly Afghanistan.

All we hear is "winning" or "losing" the war. We've already lost. We've lost too many innocent lives, we've shattered our economy, we've lost any remnant of dignity and Americans are ready for civil war blaming each other for the mess we're in, and we've lost respect with other nations.

The only people who have one are the monsters who took us to these fake war, and those who benefited from the wars (elites, corporations). But in the end, these people lost too and no one won. We all lost because of greed, ignorance, self-deception, apathy, cowardice and ego.

The US needs to pull out now if we are to stop more deaths, rebuild our own country, and regain whatever dignity and respect we can. Americans are looking to Obama to do something. I believe he will be pulling out eventually during his term in office.

However, it is really up to Americans to apply pressure on Congress to get out of the wars now. It was always up to us to do the right thing. We relinquished our power to greedy, ruthless idiots and this is what we got.

Saturday October 17, 2009, 6:15 am
"The only people who have one" correction... The only people who have "won"

Saturday October 17, 2009, 6:05 pm
I must agree with Marion Y. that many of us in the US do irony.

Given the current economic outlook, it is much cheaper than dry cleaning.

Saturday October 17, 2009, 6:13 pm
forget this nonsense the main enemy and threat to pakistan is the taliban and al-queda ...look what they have done in the last week to the innocent civilians and army of pakistan.....pakistan is in a fight for its life against extremists and the U.S is its best ally to help fight them...

Sunday October 18, 2009, 12:10 am
I love it Joe, "forget this nonsense". Not to suggest for a moment that Marion's thoughtful perspective was 'nonsense', or Paul's clever quip.

We see the insanity of the course we're on, the contribution to global impact it carries. We come here to vent, educate, be further educated, expand, find ways to be active (ists).

But I, as so many others, are tired of the poor strategical choices. But the problem has as much to do with the complexities of the region, culturally, politically, etc., as it does with all manner of nefarious agendas, seen and unseen. Wow, can you imagine having to unravel this B***h?

Allowing for the indulgence of the assumption that Obama has all the data needed, which of course isn't true, he still has a situation that cannot/will not be resolved anytime soon. There is so much that is dependent on our involvement, we're screwed.

Sunday October 18, 2009, 1:33 am
The Gods All Either Must Be Sadists or Comedians; cause they'll are either Sick Twisted cruel; OR the Masters of Irony...

..as far as This New Front The USA has Been Cultivating that "nonInvasion" for a few years; so I seriously Wonder How many of the attacks Wern't Our covert Ops or Brainwashed Trained Captured MiddleEasterner Suicide Scapegoats.. or even Dead Native scapegoats with Our Radio controll unit installed...
Can I Prove it?
No But But Given the way things "Came together" I Believe it beyond a reasonable Doubt;
Likwise I believe that the Military/CIA has gone so Rogue That They will Keep Obama out of the Loop on anything they Choose to to Further thier agenda's and Line thier Pockets (What you think it's just Congressmen that get's thier Pockets lined for Creating Defense contracts;
or Great Jobs when they serve the right Masters....

Sunday October 18, 2009, 2:27 pm
I'm going to assume here that the main point to this article is setting up worst case scenarios for a full fledged civil war in Pakistan. Well, as long as the US hangs tight and holds strong in Afghanistan that isn't going to happen. America would be foolish now to pull out of Afghanistan, which in a sense would be tatamount to abandoning Pakistan after they have already committed to battling the Taliban and al-Qaeda, along with our own interests in keeping the Taliban in check.

The mountainous tribal areas of Pakistan along the Afghan border have always acted autonomously. Pakistan as a country has never had real control in that region. Except for a few splinter groups elsewhere, the majority of Pakistanis do not like Sharia law or the Taliban and are not gearing for civil unrest much less civil war.

It just makes for some common sense that finally getting Pakistan in full gear and throttle and are attacking the Taliban on one side, the US military can crunch them on the other, crushing the Taliban in the middle while cutting off all their supply and escape routes.

The trouble in fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan is that they could always retreat into their Pakistani safe havens. No more, since Pakistan is delivering. This is good news not bad and as long as we show Pakistan we are there for the long haul, they will intensify their efforts in erradicating, not promoting the Taliban influencial spheres.

I know everyone says Afghanistan cannot be conquered, for Alexander tried, the British tried and Russia tried but all failed. There is one big difference though. The US is not there to colonize and conquer. We are there because we were attacked by al-Qaeda who were given safe haven by the Talabani government.

We understand there will be no US styled democracy, but once the Taliban and al-Qaeda are corralled and some semblance of security is incorporated into the country, we will leave. Afghanis know this...

Sunday October 18, 2009, 5:46 pm
very well said bruce...much more effective than my post..

Sunday October 18, 2009, 6:23 pm
Sopunds remarkably like the Flawed Domino Theory Cold War justifications for going after Veitnam, then Cambodia, Laos, and so on and on...
and Where did that get us?
Majorly in Debt with Thousands Dead and Thousands more Permanently Damadged Heroin Addicted Soldiers; and innocent citizens...

Sound Familiar YET...

What we are doing is aa CRIME;

an internationaly recognised Crime;

and the False Flag Attacks Both here in the USA and Abroad are Patently obvious in thier Timing and execution...

Sunday October 18, 2009, 6:38 pm
"we were attacked by al-Qaeda who were given safe haven by the Talabani government". Assuming for the moment that may be true {and that 9/11 was NOT an "inside job", as all the Evidence points to that 9/11 WAS an "Inside Job"}; assuming that al-Qaeda is "guilty", there is still ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION IN INTERNATIONAL LAW for the U.S. being in Afghanistan {or AfPak, as it's now being called}, AT ALL. NONE, ZILCH.

If a group of Frenchmen had "attacked" the U.S., WE WOULD NOT "RETALIATE" BY BOMBING OR INVADING FRANCE. The French government would not be "held responsible" for acts committed by some of their criminally-lunatic citizens. The Investigation and Punishment for the tragic deaths of 9/11 should have resulted in a CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROCEDURE, such as we conduct when the MAFIA, or any other Criminal Organization, does such a thing. The Criminals identified, tried and brought to Justice. This was not even CONSIDERED.

It is because of SHEER HIDDEN RACISM, that we hold "Arabs" or "Muslims" "responsible" and invade ON THAT BASIS ALONE; tho it's not what we admit publicly! We could NOT have gotten public support in the U.S. for invading any "White" European country.....!
{When ONE Black Person or Jewish Person commits a crime, ALL Blacks or Jews are considered responsible..... to a Racist perspective.....}

The Taliban and al-Qaeda have no Air Force, no Navy, that can cross oceans to come over here; and they can't walk on water -- or can they? They have no Army that could break thru American defenses if the American Army STAYED AT HOME.
Furthermore, GUERILLA TERRORISM NEEDS NO "BASE". And it has NO NATIONAL TIES. A terrorist "base" could be in Oregon as well as Afghanistan. {As they are said to have discovered one outside of Portland, Oregon.}

When we asked the Afghans to "hand over" terrorists, we were {knowingly!} going against CORE VALUES OF HOSPITALITY in a culture where "handing over" a GUEST, even an ENEMY GUEST, is the deadliest sort of sin -- it is tantamount to, oh, eating babies.

Nevertheless, the Afghans said they'd "hand over" bin Laden -- IF IT COULD BE PROVED THAT HE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. Such proof WAS NEVER FORTHCOMING; NOR DOES IT EXIST. {Except in tapes made by bin Laden, which some say are a hoax. Bin Laden was/is? a KNOWN CIA OPERATIVE; THAT, at least, IS established as FACT beyond any question.}
The AMERICAN FBI ITSELF, now says THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BIN LADEN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. You can look this up; it has been published in the news some months ago.

I agree with Rod: "I believe that the Military/CIA has gone so Rogue That They will Keep Obama out of the Loop on anything they Choose to to Further their agendas"; I believe with Rod that there is A LOT MORE GOING ON WITH COVERT OPS than will ever be released to our regular news media.

Afghanis and Iraqis HATE OUR GUTS; as YOU would hate THEM if Afghanis or Iraqis invaded the U.S. and were stomping around, lording it over us, raping our women, every day murdering people arbitrarily, taking our lives and means of living away from us, polluting our lands FOREVER with Depleted Uranium, causing multiple Birth Defects in our children..... starving our children, forcing our girls and women into prostitution.....looting our Cultural Objects, destroying {NOT "rebuilding"!} our infrastructure, our schools and our hospitals, and our religious buildings, raping our natural resources..... ALL THIS IS BEING DONE AND HAS BEEN DONE in these countries in the NAME of "Democracy". We WRECK each country we invade.

And all this serves ONLY TO MAKE INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM GROW. Funny, the Taliban and al-Qaeda HAVE NO TROUBLE RECRUITING THOUSANDS, none at all {many of them actually NATIONALISTS, fighting for their homes, families and to get their countries BACK from the U.S.}; whereas the American Military has to go to great lengths, to meet required numbers; including "stop-loss", an ILLEGAL DRAFT OF THOSE ALREADY IN THE MILITARY....

Of course, the MORE International Terrorism grows, the MORE the CIA/Black Ops LIKE it -- the Cops NEED some Robbers to keep going strong! Hey, the Cold War fizzled out -- we need Fresh Blood to keep going!
Lest you think Rod & I are a bit crazy -- McChesney, current Supremo of American forces {and NATO forces!} in AfPak, was for YEARS heading Black Ops..... not a coincidence that he is where he is now.

Also pretty STRONG evidence that some of the "Suicide Bombing" incidents leading to escalation of forces in Iraq, were MANUFACTURED by U.S. & by British Covert Agents... read something BESIDES the American Press!!!

Gee, Uhh, ALL we care about, is giving "Democracy" and "Stability" to these poor benighted peasants, and oh, yes, and stamping out the Evil Opium Trade, we just SPEND OUR BLOOD AND TREASURE on these INGRATES and they RESIST US, these Monsters of Ingratitude!!!!! Using OUR OWN WEAPONS THAT WE SUPPLIED TO THEM, AGAINST US. {The Arms Manufacturers are grinning at this!}

And, how dare you imply that it's about AN OIL PIPELINE, and BASES FROM WHICH TO STRATEGICALLY CONTROL VARIOUS COUNTRIES IN AN OIL-RICH REGION???? Why, NOOOOOOOO, we're just so ALTRUISTIC, that it HURTS..........!!!!!!!!

Please READ THE FOREIGN PRESS, sometimes, to find out what is REALLY going on...... or the U.S. Alternative Media.....

President Obama has disappointed a lot of people, but I believe as I think Rod does, that he is NOT THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD; that the U.S. Presidency is NOT the most powerful single thing in the world NOW; that President Obama is the captive of forces much stronger and more sinister. {I don't think he is necessarily a WILLING captive..... that is just my personal opinion.} He hasn't got a lot of wiggle-room. The CORPORATIONS dominate the U.S. Military....... {The CORPORATIONS have to be reined in, brought down somehow!}

We STILL have to work for Peace, with or without President Obama.

STOP SOLDIERS FROM GOING INTO THE ARMY! GET THE ONES ALREADY IN THE ARMY, TO LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPONS AND NOT FIGHT FOR OIL, NO BLOOD FOR OIL!
That is STILL the best way I can think of.

Remove our robot-like order-obeying unwilling PAWNS from the "Great Game"..... the "Game" to outmaneuver China and Russia and India and whoever, to grab the remaining OIL for the Corporations, fight over a DYING NATURAL WORLD'S RESOURCES.....!

Sunday October 18, 2009, 8:25 pm
Suruna said: "We see the insanity of the course we're on, the contribution to global impact it carries. ...........Allowing for the indulgence of the assumption that Obama has all the data needed, which of course isn't true, he still has a situation that cannot/will not be resolved anytime soon. There is so much that is dependent on our involvement, we're screwed."

In this, as in Bruce's comment, which I can't deny is thoughtful, I see a set of "Liberal", as opposed to "Radical", assumptions. {Hey, I am NOT meaning to put you guys down! DON'T take it that way! It is easy to be mis-understood on the Internet!}

What we need, as some of the people on Care2 on other threads who are talking about a need for a "Spiritual Renewal" to bring about Peace, say: what we need IS a RADICAL, as opposed to a "Liberal", reversal of Public Opinion and Action.
No, I am NOT talking about Karl Marx! A 150-year-old "Radicalism"? An outmoded Economic theory??? I DON'T think so!

After I wrote this: ......."the "Great Game"..... the "Game" to outmaneuver China and Russia and India and whoever, to grab the remaining OIL for the Corporations, fight over a DYING NATURAL WORLD'S RESOURCES.....!"

After I wrote that, I realized how it "sounds" according to current prevalent thinking. ABANDON the "Great Game"! {A term invented by the British when THEY were engaged in Afghanistan in the 19th century. Read the Rudyard Kipling novel, "Kim".} ABANDON AMERICAN INTERESTS! Am I, BMutiny, then, a Traitor????????

First of all, it is A VERY, VERY COMMON MISTAKE, to identify the interests of CORPORATIONS, with AMERICAN interests!!!!! The BUSY, EVER-BUSY AND EFFICIENT CORPORATE PROPAGANDA MACHINE, HAS SEEN TO IT, THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC USUALLY *UNTHINKINGLY* IDENTIFIES *CORPORATE* INTERESTS WITH *U.S.* INTERESTS; with your and my "interests"!

And when I said, "The CORPORATIONS dominate the U.S. Military"..... some will find that idea hard to swallow. It's NEW to them.

Well, I'm Standard Oil, I'm Exxon-Mobil. I say to the powerful and mighty U.S. Army, "Go invade this-or-that country, I NEED MORE OIL, I'M RUNNING OUT......!" and so the mighty and powerful U.S. Military DOES INVADE, making up some g--d-- FLIMSY EXCUSE, some TRANSPARENT LIES......! "WMD's", indeed! "Stopping the Opium Trade", indeed!

I'm KBR/Halliburton. Hey, I WON'T LET MY PEOPLE BE PROSECUTED FOR CRIMES, INCLUDING WAR CRIMES, THAT THEY DO IN A FOREIGN LAND! And I SOAK the U.S. taxpayers for BILLIONS: my NO-BID, NO-COMPETITIVE BID, mind you, Electrical work is so faulty, that if U.S. troops escape the Taliban, they get ELECTROCUTED IN THEIR OWN SHOWERS..... and of course NOTHING is done, NOTHING is fixed, and NOBODY GETS PROSECUTED.......

Yes, I insist, CORPORATIONS DOMINATE -- DOMINATE is the word -- THE U.S. MILITARY.
THE U.S. MILITARY INTERESTS FOR MORE AND BIGGER WARS {to aggrandize its own power}, and the AIMS OF THE CORPORATIONS TO CONTROL MORE AND MORE RESOURCES, NEATLY DOVETAIL.

Yes, but we almost -- and I include MYSELF, and ALL PEACENIKS -- we almost ALL of us have a knee-jerk reaction, well, but if resources are that SCARCE {and they ARE, and getting scarcer!}, then WE SHOULD CONTROL, WE; "OUR" COUNTRY, "OUR SORT" SHOULD CONTROL; NOT them Roossians, Chineesies, Ay-rabs, or whoever or whatever......

THIS IS WHERE the RADICAL idea of a DIFFERENT SORT OF SPIRITUAL APPROACH becomes NECESSARY.

What IF, INSTEAD OF "looking out for our "OWN" "Interests", we DEEPLY FELT, that we HAD NO OTHER CHOICE, BUT TO SHARE -- SHARE the Planet, in some EQUITABLE FASHION???

This is the RADICAL, as opposed to the merely "Liberal" "let's-continue-with-the-status-quo-only-try-to-smooth-the-rough-edges" approach.

When the President SAYS, that he "wants to TALK TO our 'enemies', use DIPLOMACY, talk to 'everyone'" -- he is at least paying lip service to the RADICAL approach that is needed.

I think that there are serious forces wanting to PREVENT THAT AT ALL COSTS. Maybe at some time, President Obama can BREAK THRU, BREAK AWAY FROM THESE FORCES. Maybe he is "stalling for Time"; to a time when his position might be stronger, perhaps? Maybe such a time will never come. Maybe it will. Maybe this is completely a wrong way to look at it.

We don't WAIT for President Obama. WE TAKE IT UPON OURSELVES, TO ACT "RADICALLY". WE set the example.

Yeah, we here on Care2, even!

Sunday October 18, 2009, 8:46 pm
You really should read, not only the Guardian article, but click on the COMMENTS after the article. Quite interesting, moving. Some people "get it"; more foreigners than Americans, I'm afraid! {The Guardian is a British newspaper.}

Sunday October 18, 2009, 9:07 pm
This is a delicate situation and requires smart intelligence to handle this situation.. brothers in arms normally stick together.. least they come up in a sweeping vicious attack against those that doen't belong in the same bed.

Sunday October 18, 2009, 10:15 pm
I propound this radical idea: NO American soldier in ANY foreign country, has ANY right to fire his/her gun at ANYone; not even someone who is firing a gun at THEM. That's right, NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER!

We are NOT AT WAR WITH ANY COUNTRY OR GOVERNMENT OR ITS PEOPLE.
That's right, WE ARE NOT AT WAR.

We were NOT INVITED INTO ANY OF THE COUNTRIES WE INVADED.
We are NOT WANTED IN ANY OF THEM NOW.
[As I said before, READ THE FOREIGN PRESS, not the kowtowing American Press, which LIES REGULARLY on behalf of the -- CORPORATIONS!]

Any American soldier being uninvited in a foreign land: ANY American soldier, your son, your daughter, your husband, your father.....
IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS AN ARMED BURGLAR BEING INSIDE YOUR HOUSE.
The HOUSEHOLDER has an ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO FIRE ON THE ARMED BURGLAR IF NECESSARY FOR SELF-DEFENCE.

The BURGLAR has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT IN THE LAW, NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER, FOR FIRING ON THE HOUSEHOLDER. The Burglar can NOT claim "Self-Defense"!!!!
WE--ARE--THAT--TRESPASSING--BURGLAR. OUR soldiers are.

IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE. JUST THAT SIMPLE. THERE IS NO VERBIAGE THAT CHANGES THAT, EXCUSES THAT, AMELIORATES THAT, OR COVERS IT UP.

There is NO INTERNATIONAL LAW, that allows American troops to be in either Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other country.
It is EXACTLY THE SAME, AS WHEN GERMANY MARCHED INTO POLAND, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, ETC.
Or the Japanese into Mongolia, China, etc.

If we were "at war with" the Mafia, that STILL would NOT give American or NATO troops, the right to invade, bomb, destroy, ravage Italy or Sicily!!! {And gun down Sicilians, maybe armed and very, very angry Sicilians, on the grounds that they "might" be with the Mafia!}
{Such an action would in fact make the Mafia STRONGER, not weaker.....}

The SAME goes for ALL OTHER NATO FORCES.
The United Nations appears powerless against the U.S. and NATO.
No surprise there.

This is NOT just "my opinion". THIS IS INTERNATIONAL LAW! There is NO doubt or equivocation in this LAW.

Our U.S., and NATO troops, Britain, Poland, Italy, etc. etc., being in these countries NOT-invited BY those countries, is nothing but a
WAR CRIME. WAR CRIME. WAR CRIME.

EACH individual soldier, AS WELL AS the various NATO heads-of-state and the generals and officers, IS RESPONSIBLE.
AND EACH SOLDIER IS COMMITTING A WAR CRIME EACH TIME HE/SHE FIRES A GUN INSIDE THAT COUNTRY. That is NOT what they're telling them, OF COURSE! or, telling YOU at home!
BUT IT IS TRUE IN THE LAW.

"Ignorance of the Law is no excuse." But, we SHOULD ENLIGHTEN THE U.S. {and other NATO!} TROOPS.

PROVE me wrong IF YOU CAN!

Monday October 19, 2009, 4:17 am
pretty simple...a country has a right to defend itself from groups/terrorists who want to kill them..al-queda and its allies will never stop trying to kill innocent americans so we can never stop DEFENDING ourselves..and as far a 99 percent of what you posted ..blah,blah,blah...half truths,lies and far left propaganda(no surprise)...

Monday October 19, 2009, 11:00 am
Send a Green Star to Bruce Anderson

Monday October 19, 2009, 11:11 am
Sending a Green Star to BMutiny.

Until the US allows other countries to set up military bases on US soil, we have no business in other countries. The arrogance of this thought is sickening and evil.

Monday October 19, 2009, 7:28 pm
I though you all agreed President Bush and Dick Cheney should rot in hell. Then Obama not only doesn't end the war, he increases it and involves another country, and he wins the Nobel Prize.

Signed, confused conservative who did not vote for Senator John McCain.