Wednesday October 21, 2009, 12:42 pm
Israel made hundreds of thousands of phone calls to Gazans to warn them that Israel will bomb their place soon because Hamas terrorists were shooting from there. Hamas snipers were often surrounded by children, some of whom wanted to protect the fighters and some not.

This approach to saving civilian lives - on which Israel spent MUCH MORE EFFORT than US in Afganistan, not even talking about Armies of the world - deserves a gratitude, not blame.

Inventing crimes or advertizing articles posted on extremist sites does not promote peace in the ME.

Gazans voted for Hamas, who openly called for a war with Israel. Hamas started the war, lost it and now Gaza lies in ruins, so who is to blame? DId anyone expect Israel to tolerate Hamas bombing by thousands of rockets forever? Didn't Gazans know that the answer is coming, and weren't they warned a plenty of times?

In other wars, the number of victims is measured not in hundreds, but in hundreds of THOUSANDS, Gazans should thank Israel for being careful and precise and keeping the collateral damage to a minimum.

Wednesday October 21, 2009, 10:09 pm
"Israel made hundreds of thousands of phone calls to Gazans to warn them that Israel will bomb their place soon"...

Oh really WC?...If you cannot provide a link or proof of this absurd statement, you will be flagged as stalking my and other threads and doing your very best to damage them with your mindless, self serving rhetoric...Here, there and everywhere...(care2 rules?)...

Thursday October 22, 2009, 12:19 am
"Gazans should thank Israel for being careful and precise and keeping the collateral damage to a minimum. "


Family Who Lost 29 Members in Gaza War:

We Envy the Dead

By Amira Hass

16-year-old Ahmad Ibrahim and his 10-year-old brother Yakub saw the corpses of their mother, four of their brothers and their nephew. Mahmoud Tallal, 16, had lost his toes; bleeding, he saw that his parents - Tallal and Rahma - had been killed. Three-year-old Omar, Salah's son, was buried unconscious under 24-year-old Saffa's dead body, explaining why they hadn't found him during the terrible moment of panic as they left the house. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23748.htm

Thursday October 22, 2009, 2:13 am
Again - Nothing is being done because:

1. The West is involved. If The West put too much pressure on the Israeli government, the Israeli government will make sure that the MAJORITY of the population of NATO countries will know that their government and armies are doing similar pratices and, also, killing (many) innocent civilians. The only difference is that the conflict is not fought on homeland territory.
It's a form of blackmail, and it works. The Western governments do not want to lose support from the majority of public regarding the wars fought in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan.

2. The USA and the EU are heavily invested in the Israeli Military Complex. Most people in Britain do not even know that their pension fund is directly tied to the Military of Israel.

The situation is absurd and evil, and it's always the "regular" civilians whom pay the price.

The way the Israeli government is carrying on just shows the collapse... The American Empire is collapsing; Israel is an integral part of the Empire, and a show-case of globalisation. It's falling apart...

Thursday October 22, 2009, 3:45 am
"
Wild Cat (2)
Wednesday October 21, 2009, 12:42 pm
Israel made hundreds of thousands of phone calls to Gazans to warn them that Israel will bomb their place soon because Hamas terrorists were shooting from there. Hamas snipers were often surrounded by children, some of whom wanted to protect the fighters and some not. "
WOW! how humane! and where shall they go? when they are warned? if that is true? where the children will go?
Those are children in this video , its not a photo shop Job! its no Hamas fighters, they are just babies, who have been killed, with no crime ! just for fun! those are blood and flesh , like your children are, how would you like to see your children in this way ; just tell me How would you like it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDzrVE7cik&feature=related

Thursday October 22, 2009, 5:27 am
"WOW! how humane! and where shall they go? when they are warned? if that is true? where the children will go?"...

They could go nowhere Huda...Israel sealed the already tightly controlled borders BEFORE the attack...The Israeli overkill was very much like letting a fox loose in a chicken coop...Facing death with NO way out...

For Netanyahu to even attemt to justify blatant murder is insane! (My humble opinion only :)...

Thursday October 22, 2009, 5:41 am
WOW you are so clever David, and you figured this all out by yourself with out the help of the CIA agents? who seem to know all the insider information , on a special channel?!

Thursday October 22, 2009, 6:09 am
David and Huda,
for members who claim Peace and love you have a hard time time NOT attacking others just because they have a different opinion then you.

I perssonally am totally confused about the situation over there.I once saw a American-Palestinian woman speak at a local college years back about the things that they have to go through under occupation.I thought I had it all figured out from there.
Then Hamas began it's attacks,brainwashing and using it's own people to commit these horrible acts of sucide bombing.Even targeting children as young as 5 to grow up to do these things.
So then I thought "Wow,maybe the Isrealis have a reason for being that way".
what is happening pover there is disgusting and the only ones to really blame for the Airstrikes and the sucide bombings are the Leaders of both countries!
Hamas for continue to exploit their people's misery in order to kill innocent Israeli people, and the Israeli gov for not making a greater effort to finally bring peace to the region.All the while Christians are being slaughtered by both sides.
This is holy land that they have laid claim to.It is Holy land that is the righteous birth place for ALL Muslims,Jews and Christians.
There is a resolution that can be meet and can be done peacefully if we all remember the real importance of land.
As American I can only say that I feel,personally,that my country should not be involved in other country's problems unless it has to do with our own safety.Period.
As a Human being i can only weep for the lives lost by the violence from both sides and the lives that will be destroyed by the on going violence.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 6:24 am
Lady Liberation! thanks for your honorable feeling! (BOW) I didn't know I'm attacking any one here? whom did I attack' which you are standing in defiance for?
whom did David attack? is there new law in the land for us not to express how we feel for human pain on earth?
Namaste! peace be with you! may you children be safe!

Thursday October 22, 2009, 6:33 am
You cannot currently send a star to Huda because you have done so within the last week.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 6:16 pm
I think there is a confusion here between attacking people and attacking a deliberate government policy of denial of human rights to an entire people who have been imprisoned and placed under siege so that no food, fuel, medical supplies can enter (except through the tunnels) and no one could escape. As to this suggestion of phone calls warning of the attack what utter propaganda is this? Have you tried to make phone calls to people in Gaza...how often is there electricity to run the relay masts for phones to work or even be charged?

Before we start to bandy round wild accusations and 'attacking people perhaps the cold water of a few facts might be helpful. Hamas in case people have forgotten was a legally elected party and was the wish of the voters in Gaza. We may not like their political views (they don't care much for ours) but elected they were because the main party of the time (Fatah) was failing to deliver on promises. For many months there was a ceasefire honoured by Hamas until Israel failed to honour its own word to lift the siege and hostilities resumed. Hamas has set up many social care agencies to look after people and had organised the feeding of its people via the said tunnels.

The responce of Israel was totally disproportionate.
I shall say that one more time.
The responce of Israel was totally disproportionate.
They used both white phosphorus and dense inert metal munitions on a largely unarmed people.
They destroyed civilian houses and hospitals.
They fired upon civilians who were attempting to surrender.
They deliberately fired upon ambulances and upon unarmed medical staff.
They targeted farmers who were tending their land and their livelihood.
They targeted civilian areas after refusing permission for the civilians to evacuate.
They killed over 400 children...babies and little children.
They killed near 350 women who in a Muslim country are non-combatants.
They killed doctors trying to save lives.
They killed three peace workers/children of a Palestinian doctor who worked in an Israeli hospital saving the lives of Jews.
They have refused to lift the siege and let in building materials and winter approaches.
A convoy of medical supplies sits waiting in Cairo rotting awaiting the opening of the border crossing.

So before you come on here preaching your brand of hate get the facts. Nearly two thousand Gazians were killed...seven Israeli civilians were killed in retaliation and a few troops (I think about fourteen young people who will not return to their families)

We stand for peace...we practice what we believe in.

We support the Brave young Jewish people who go to prison for refusing to join the army to take up arms against Palestinians.
We support the Jewish Peace movements who work so hard to put pressure of their own government to change their hard line policies.

But still the land grab started at the Nakba continues. Still Palestinians are thrown out of their homes, their livelihoods ruined to make way for Jewish settlers.

So before you come on here and preach you troll-like rubbish get the facts..talk to the people of both sides and find out what is really happening...and above all be true to yourselves and support all those from both sides that work for peace, the whole peace and nothing but the whole and lasting peace.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 6:19 pm
The walls around Gaza are no different to the ones built around Warsaw seven decades ago. Tear down the walls.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 8:07 pm
David, some comments on your statements:

"The responce of Israel was totally disproportionate. "
WC: So, police has to fight robbers one-on-one and without guns? How do you define proprtion to firing THOUSANDS of MILITARY rockets at Israeli cities, at Israeli civilians for 8 YEARS.

"They used both white phosphorus and dense inert metal munitions on a largely unarmed people. "
WC: Using white phosphorus is an accepted practice by all world armies.

"They destroyed civilian houses and hospitals. "
WC: Hamas fighters were shooting from civilian houses and hospitals, using human shields. These Hamas fighters had to be eliminated somehow.

"They fired upon civilians who were attempting to surrender. "
WC: A plain lie.

"They deliberately fired upon ambulances and upon unarmed medical staff. "
WC: Hamas took over ambulances to transfer militants and rockets. Israel launched a number of complaints about that dirty Hamas practice to whoever they could - all to no avail.

"They targeted farmers who were tending their land and their livelihood. "
WC: A plain lie.

"They targeted civilian areas after refusing permission for the civilians to evacuate. "
WC: A plain lie. Israelis dropped booklets and even made phone calls to the places they were about to bomb. No other army in the world had done anything similar to that!!!

"They killed over 400 children...babies and little children. They killed near 350 women who in a Muslim country are non-combatants. "
WC: These numbers are about twice exaggerated. in comparison to Israeli-provided numbers. Don't forget that MIGHTY HAMAS WARRIORS like to shoot at Israelis while surrounded by kids, encouraged by Hamas Mickey Mouse to earn Paradise faster and simpler. They are in grave danger and it is Hamas fault when they got hurt, especially those grabbed for Human Shields involuntarily. Also, it is not shown how many of the victims were killed by Hamas "friendly" fire. Best armies have such victims, while Hamas claimed all victims on Israel's fire. Just another lie.

"They killed doctors trying to save lives. "
WC: A plain lie. Doctors of Red Crescent and Red Magin David fully cooperate.

"They killed three peace workers/children of a Palestinian doctor who worked in an Israeli hospital saving the lives of Jews. "
WC: an unfortunate incident in a dangerous military zone, for which Israeli Army and plenty of Israeli apologized, and the doctor accepted why his house was fired at.

"They have refused to lift the siege and let in building materials and winter approaches. "
WC: Hamas kept bombing Israel with rockets, there is not reason for Israel to provide them with raw materials for those rockets.

"A convoy of medical supplies sits waiting in Cairo rotting awaiting the opening of the border crossing. "
WC: Every day convoys of hundreds of trucks come from Israel to Gaza delivering humanitarian aid. The only have to be checked not to contain ammunition, guns, etc.

I don't know to which "we" you are referring David, I hope not to Hamas.

I know that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. It wants to kill the Jews and destroy the country. So, I don't respect Israelis failing to defend their country at a time of great danger and need.

A consider the behavior or Arab states in that matter disgusting and shameful. They got 10,000 times more land than Israel and could easily accomodate their Arab brethern, kept in concentration camps of Syria and Lebanon. Israel took 800,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of Arab states without the OIL $$$ of Saudi Arabia, while Arab states could not take care of 750,000 Arabs.

Arab countries must accept responcibilities for the racist wars they started against Israel and start contributing to the peace process by SOME ACTIONS toward peace. For now, they are simply not interested in peace: they think they can come with long lists of demands from Israel while giving nothing in return, except for uncertain "normalization" which will be beneficial to both Arab states and Israel anyway.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 8:10 pm
John R, the fence around Gaza was built to prevent suicide bombers from coming to Israel, and like many other Israeli innovations (microwave, MRI, PC) it works very efficiently. The fence must stay there while the danger of suicidal terrorists exists.

For Israelis, saving human life takes precedence over inconvenience for a farmer.

Thursday October 22, 2009, 8:18 pm
Bit of a shame that "that fence" was illegally built through olive groves with no compassion for the owners and denies access to palestinian farmers?...

For Israelis the taking of human life takes precedence to helping anyone at all!...Forgotten the slaughter of Gaza so soon?

Thursday October 22, 2009, 8:46 pm
OK my brain dead Wild Cat in the wilderness, I'll attempt to spell it out in simplistic terms that even you might understand?...

If someone built a huge, ugly concrete wall between you and your garden, "just in case a terrorist was lurking there", would you be happy to travel a few miles, stand up at an Israeli checkpoint for a couple of hours to gain entry to your own backyard just to see if the lettuce you planted last week is ok...and then return the same way?...

Do you get some kind of warped satisfaction out of haunting threads I post, in the general interest of all, and dropping heaps of rubbish on them?

Care2 support and I do not approve...

Microwaves may work ok but so do concrete mixers and assault rifles?

Thursday October 22, 2009, 9:39 pm
Brother Buchan,

I will reply in simplistic terms too: the war with Hamas in Gaza was started by Hamas according to Hamas' Chapter, openly calling for elimination of Israel. Israel on its own left Gaza 3 years ago, left cultivated farms behind, and transferred all Israelis from Gaza into Israel. The World said: Great ,O Israel, we are with you, peace is coming.

Rockets came instead of peace, as Hamas bombed Israeli cities from Gaza for 8 years, while Israels were telling again and again: "we are going to retaliate, we are going to retaliate". The World just kept quiet. As Israelis did nothing and UN did nothing too, shooting rockets into Israeli became hamas fun and entertainment, with different groups competing who is more MIGHTY WARRIOR.

And then BOOM, Israeli is coming and getting the bad guys, even when they are hiding behind skirts, diapers and sick people. Suddenly the world wakes up and asks: why shooting?

The blood of Arab civilians is on bloody and dirty Hamas' hands.

For the wall: if you neighbour comes to your backyard and sometimes even into your house when you are lazy to close the back door and steals something again and again, you will build a fence, David and put good locks to keep you things safe. My neighbours are very nice people, but we still have fences separating our backyards, bro. Are you against those fences as well?

Imagine then how much more importance Israelis had to do to make sure those suicidal killers cannot reach their destination. Israelis don't like when someone blows up disco or a pizza store, that's why Israelis had to build that fence - and expensive one, BTW. Blame Arafat sending suicidal killers. When there were no bombers - there was no fence. I am sure Israelis would rather spent money on something better than that fence - like another pharma or computer or green tech startup which they do #1 in the world.

Microwaves invented by Israelis work fine, and so does the fence - killers can't penetrate it. Lives are saved, people caring about lives are happy. Farmers in Gaza should vote against Hamas next time and elect someone with smaller rhetoric and hate and bigger brain and heart.

Friday October 23, 2009, 12:02 am
Good try 'sis', but never good enough (Why try so hard to justify undeniable war crimes)...If, behind that fence someone stole your land and built a settlement on it, after blowing up your kids, your extended family (and your lettuce), would your new neighbour be welcome?...

Friday October 23, 2009, 12:17 am
Your negative thoughts are not requred here and I am sure that the now dead Palestinian kids, massacred by the Israeli army are no longer listening to you either?...GO AWAY!

Friday October 23, 2009, 7:26 am
Better: "Your negative thoughts are not requred here and I am sure that the now dead Israeli kids, massacred by the Palestinian Terrorists are no longer listening to you either?...GO AWAY! "

Friday October 23, 2009, 7:52 am
Facts are facts, history is history, and they will not change - no matter how much Wild Crap is posted on these threads, or how childish and nonsensical the trolls get.

Israel has been the aggressor in this conflict and Gaza has been the victim. The atrocities committed by Israel against innocent citizens are inexcusable.

These are facts that even entire armies of trolls could never change.

Friday October 23, 2009, 7:53 am
Goldstone tells Obama: Show me flaws in Gaza report :

Goldstone tells Al Jazeera he would be happy to respond to Washington's claims that report is one-sided.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1122893.html

===

Full Text The "Goldstone Report' -

UN Fact Finding Mission finds strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict; calls for end to impunity
http://snipurl.com/snv1d

Friday October 23, 2009, 11:10 am
When one person kills another it is a crime under any circumstances, in war, in self defense, in anger, in reaction to saving a life or revenging a life, it is a crime because the decision ends a life.

The problem of killing can not end by killing.

If you have children hitting and throwing rocks at each other and you tell them to stop, they just go somewhere else to express their territorial and macho drives, but if you show them an emotional and physical mirror so they can see their animal nature and their human nature, they can choose to be human and stop hitting and throwing rocks because they respect themselves enough not to do what they know is wrong, impulsive, and makes us more like animals. Wolves and sharks and snakes can not choose, but humans can.

The only question of why Israel continues to flaunt their big stick-dick in the face of Muslims and think they should like it, is because it is too pleasurable to their animal brains. The humanity of empathy and understanding is blinded with revenge, tradition, religion, and hate. Emotions distort rational thinking and the more emotions one has the more distortion of one's thinking.

If Israel built houses for Palestinians and provided food and medicine for Palestinian stores and clinics, Hamas would join the peaceful work to promote coexistence or be voted out by the Palestinians. Today Hamas represents the disgust of, not just the Muslim World, but the entire world. The world is disgusted with war and revenge as a never ending cycle of children hitting each other and throwing rocks, but they don't mature beyond that level as adults. Instead of becoming more human and being aware of the danger of feeding our aggressive territorial and racist nepotistic genetic drives as animals, they encourage these negative human animal qualities and destroy our humanitarian qualities.

We need to mature beyond our baser animal drives to become human or we will continue our history as our fate of Man's Inhumanity Against Man as our most dominant legacy as a species.

One World

Peace

Friday October 23, 2009, 11:12 am
What these two nations need to do is to help each other work through the past. and into the life that counts now...building for a greater tomorrow... not inciting hatrd fromboth sides... no good pointing fingers back and forth as this does not build friendships but can further bring them down to the pinnacle of destruction.. in this no one wins

Friday October 23, 2009, 11:25 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y88xbM0QyA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjwvvDPW1kQ&feature=related

Friday October 23, 2009, 11:40 am
WC (how appropriate is that title) Here are some of my comments on some of yours.

"The responce of Israel was totally disproportionate. "
WC: So, police has to fight robbers one-on-one and without guns? How do you define proportion to firing THOUSANDS of MILITARY rockets at Israeli cities, at Israeli civilians for 8 YEARS.
DG: The death toll from these rockets was? Yes over eight thousand rockets were launched but they seldom hit anyone...as they were at best crude home-made affairs...it is what happens if you try to deny human rights to an entire sector of the population.

"They used both white phosphorus and dense inert metal munitions on a largely unarmed people. "
WC: Using white phosphorus is an accepted practice by all world armies.
DG: Not on civilians it is not...read up on the conventions of warfare as agreed under the UN charter.

"They destroyed civilian houses and hospitals. "
WC: Hamas fighters were shooting from civilian houses and hospitals, using human shields. These Hamas fighters had to be eliminated somehow.
DG: and your evidence for this is? If this was the case we would have found more arms amongst the rubble instead of the pathetic remnants of domestic life destroyed for ever.

"They fired upon civilians who were attempting to surrender. "
WC: A plain lie.
DG: Some of the most arresting video footage was of the well attested case of those with a white flag being fired upon by Israeli troops because they turned left instead of right as the instruction was shouted in the wrong language...so it is not I who lie here...it happened.

"They deliberately fired upon ambulances and upon unarmed medical staff. "
WC: Hamas took over ambulances to transfer militants and rockets. Israel launched a number of complaints about that dirty Hamas practice to whoever they could - all to no avail.
DG: Strange how many of the medical staff who were killed were trained originally in the west and held medical qualifications.

"They targeted farmers who were tending their land and their livelihood. "
WC: A plain lie.
DG: Again in the Independent there were accounts of this from a journalist who went seeking his farmer father only to find him shot dead in his field...like many others...are you denying the film of subsequent attempts of farmers trying to gather their crops and being shot at this summer by Israeli troops. Come off it Wild thingy you have lost both the plot and the moral argument here.

"They targeted civilian areas after refusing permission for the civilians to evacuate. "
WC: A plain lie. Israelis dropped booklets and even made phone calls to the places they were about to bomb. No other army in the world had done anything similar to that!!!
DG: OK in the middle of a bombing raid you have time to calmly walk out into the target area and read a book written in the wrong language...and perhaps you might recall I have dealt with the problem of phone usage in the strip...and dense inert metal interferes with the signal...try it sometime and you might learn something.

"They killed over 400 children...babies and little children. They killed near 350 women who in a Muslim country are non-combatants. "
WC: These numbers are about twice exaggerated. in comparison to Israeli-provided numbers. Don't forget that MIGHTY HAMAS WARRIORS like to shoot at Israelis while surrounded by kids, encouraged by Hamas Mickey Mouse to earn Paradise faster and simpler. They are in grave danger and it is Hamas fault when they got hurt, especially those grabbed for Human Shields involuntarily. Also, it is not shown how many of the victims were killed by Hamas "friendly" fire. Best armies have such victims, while Hamas claimed all victims on Israel's fire. Just another lie.
DG: Piffle! Try looking at real facts instead of some concocted stats when the Israelis were accused of war crimes...as agreed by UN investigators and Amnesty International. UN workers were in the strip...were you?

"They killed doctors trying to save lives. "
WC: A plain lie. Doctors of Red Crescent and Red Magin David fully cooperate.
DG: OK then the videos of the ambulances that were clearly marked being shot at by the troops was made up you are saying.

"They killed three peace workers/children of a Palestinian doctor who worked in an Israeli hospital saving the lives of Jews. "
WC: an unfortunate incident in a dangerous military zone, for which Israeli Army and plenty of Israeli apologized, and the doctor accepted why his house was fired at.
DG: he whole sorry mess was 'an unfortunate incident' according to you.

"They have refused to lift the siege and let in building materials and winter approaches. "
WC: Hamas kept bombing Israel with rockets, there is not reason for Israel to provide them with raw materials for those rockets.
DG: You do not build rockets out of cement, bricks and timber...just for you information...so your comment here is just plain stupid.

"A convoy of medical supplies sits waiting in Cairo rotting awaiting the opening of the border crossing. "
WC: Every day convoys of hundreds of trucks come from Israel to Gaza delivering humanitarian aid. The only have to be checked not to contain ammunition, guns, etc.
DG: I am surprised to hear about this. Some of my friends on the strip who are doctors will be pleased. Problems is these convoys you talk about only exist in the propaganda newsfilms and have no more substance than a fake tan.

I don't know to which "we" you are referring David, I hope not to Hamas.
DG: We being the Human Race...the ones who will stand up for the protection of other's human rights. And no I do not belong to Hamas...unless they have opened an office in Scotland.

I know that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. It wants to kill the Jews and destroy the country. So, I don't respect Israelis failing to defend their country at a time of great danger and need.
DG: If you bothered to read actual Hamas documents you will find that they do indeed want peace rather than theft of homes, of land and of life.

A consider the behavior or Arab states in that matter disgusting and shameful. They got 10,000 times more land than Israel and could easily accommodate their Arab brethren, kept in concentration camps of Syria and Lebanon. Israel took 800,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of Arab states without the OIL $$$ of Saudi Arabia, while Arab states could not take care of 750,000 Arabs.

Arab countries must accept responsibilities for the racist wars they started against Israel and start contributing to the peace process by SOME ACTIONS toward peace. For now, they are simply not interested in peace: they think they can come with long lists of demands from Israel while giving nothing in return, except for uncertain "normalization" which will be beneficial to both Arab states and Israel anyway.
DG: When will Israel start to accept their responsibilities of starting racist wars, racist behaviour and stop acting like thugs?
Oh and I have corrected your spelling as you omitted to do that.

Friday October 23, 2009, 11:49 am
You cannot currently send a star to David because you have done so within the last week.
David that is just for correcting WC spelling :)

Friday October 23, 2009, 12:18 pm
David Gould, a cute remark about WC and thank you for correcting my spelling.

DG: "If you bothered to read actual Hamas documents you will find that they do indeed want peace rather than theft of homes, of land and of life. "
WC: Here is a quote from Hamas web site:
"True, Hamas can’t and will not recognize Israel for purely religious reasons. This stance is a constant, not a variable." http://ptimes.org/main/default.aspx?xyz=BOgLkxlDHteZpYqykRlUuI1kx%2fVDUOFoOcy9HSwIGGqMQlh64693Q1nf5h4JczPzGtoCWU7c%2bPKPeq2LGJgtYbo8itwHjpQAxPYiRWIjAlAHY0MC9rH3862CETynPeNG1Ui0Q4CadU0%3d\

We could discuss any of the points listed above: how dangerous Hamas rockets are, how many staged videos Hamas put on the Internet with many actors "dying" to be re-surrected minutes later for another movie, above stray shots and solders mistakes, where Hamas HQ set in Shefa hospital during the war, etc.

I talked to an Israeli sniper who was not allowed to shoot at Hamas fighter when he was surrounded by Arab kids.

Israel built bomb shelters for people to save them from rocket, Hamas didn't bother with a single one, while digging plenty of tunnels inside Gaza for the fighters to move around. So, now you critisize Israel that they didn't have enough victims, while Gazans did? May be you should off ask Hamas: where are the shleters for civilians, you "mighty warriors" starting another war with Israel?

I don't see you protesting for any Israeli rights, DG. LIke for a right to live, or for a right to have factories not bombed by rockets, for a right to have discoes without suicide bombers. Did I miss it? I hope I did, otherwise you sound if not like Hamas, then as Hamas' symphatizer. Not Palestinian Arab symphatizer, a Hamas one.

Friday October 23, 2009, 1:02 pm
And another thing, DG: Buchan's "WE" cannot mean the whole Human Race, because many people, including me, disagree with you.

Friday October 23, 2009, 2:19 pm
The beauty of your disagreeing with us WC is that we can wear it like a badge of honour. It shows that we at least possess intellect, compassion and moral integrity.

Saturday October 24, 2009, 12:14 pm
If a party in an armed conflict does not fulfil its obligation to evacuate non combatants from the area it intends to fight from and instead deliberately attempts to use them as human shields, then the death of those non combatants in my opinion is clearly the resposibility of that party.

Saturday October 24, 2009, 12:28 pm
Well as far as I could see the attacking force didn't seem to care much about civilians either. There is no moral high ground to be claimed in this conflict.

Saturday October 24, 2009, 5:33 pm
John R, did you mean you wear that "Badge of Honour Killing"? I hope not. Just don't go for self-aggrandizement with all that talk about "intellect, compassion and moral integrity." Your posts are clearly biased and cannot be called any of these adjectives.

Attacking force (Hamas) didn't call any Israeli to warn about coming bombings. Israelis (defensive force) DID warn residents by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS PHONE CALLS and dropped leaflets.

There is a high moral group in this conflict. You just don't want to recognize it.

Saturday October 24, 2009, 6:49 pm
No just the badge denoting your ignorance.

Saturday October 24, 2009, 7:29 pm
Also WC surely you don't presume that because I oppose the barbaric killing of Palestinian innocents by the IDF that I condone honour killings. I am just as bitterly opposed to any doctrine that promotes the killing of women and their being treated as male property. Chauvinism in all it's forms is not purely the preserve of Arab men; just peruse the bible especially the old testament and you will find numerous horrendous examples of Jewish rape, murder and exploitation of their women in the name of god also.

Sunday October 25, 2009, 1:15 am
Why not cut the morality crap ?
If enforcing the articles in the relevant Hague and Geneva conventions equaly on both sides, then it is my jedgement that if one side attemps to employ non-combatants as shields, then the death of those non-combatants will be the responsibility of that side holding them hostage.
The other side side does not have the option not to harm them.

Or do you claim that if your enemy hides behind human shields, then you just have to accept being attacked without being able to fight back ?

Also note that Hamaz has killed more Palistenians in their effort to erridicate Fatah.

Monday October 26, 2009, 9:59 am
You cannot currently send a star to Carl because you have done so within the last week.