Tuesday October 27, 2009, 12:59 pm
Dear David Buchan,

Trick or Treatment? Receiving medical treatment should not be a scary thing. Unfortunately, for many Americans, it is.

Personal stories are the best tools of education for members of Congress. They ought to know what is really happening to their constituents. Take time to share your personal "scary" healthcare story with your members of Congress.

Tell your senators and representative the final healthcare reform bill must:

make healthcare affordable for working families;

provide a public health insurance option;

include real employer responsibility;

oppose provisions that would tax health plans; and

establish safe-staffing standards in healthcare facilities.

Share your personal "scary" healthcare story with Congress today....(Visit site to send your "scary" story)...

Spread the Word...

Post the following message as your Facebook status update: Trick or Treatment? Receiving medical treatment should not be a scary thing. Unfortunately, for many Americans, it is. Take time to share your personal "scary" healthcare story with your members of Congress at: http://go.aft.org/hcstory.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 1:33 pm
Nice David, Are you losing your mind?

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 1:37 pm
This image is something Glen Beck would like.. Get a grip.

The website is good to an extent that we are all confused about which plan has which tricks to keep us from getting treatment, so insurance companies can keep making billions in profits...

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 1:47 pm
If a country has lost the ability to laugh at itself. Not only has it lost it's sense of humour, it has lost it's soul!

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 2:06 pm
I don't know, David. Seems like this country has not only been laughing at itself for too many years now, but has become a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. There are just too many idiots out there that see the jokes as reality.

I gotta tell ya, I'm a tad bit offended by the imagery. With the far right's hate of our President growing among the ranks of the unstable, putting forward an image of a blood sucking President molesting our beloved Liberty doesn't seem like the best way to communicate with the masses.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 5:27 pm
I like it.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 5:56 pm
See David? I rest my case.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 5:57 pm
sheesh..lighten up. It's funny.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 8:48 pm
The problem with "Socialism" is THAT WE DON'T HAVE A UNIVERSAL "SOCIALIST" SYSTEM OF MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL IN THIS COUNTRY!
Instead, we ONLY have "Socialism" FOR THE WEALTHY, in the form of subsidies ONLY for the super-rich who don't really need them.....

David, "irony" and "sarcasm" is REALLY HARD TO PUT ACROSS on the Internet.
I take offense, that you, an Australian with LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THE ACTUAL POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE UNITED STATES, would spread a VIRULENT RIGHT-WING IMAGE on Care2.

"Funny" ha-ha, or not, SUCH EXTREME IMAGES HAVE AN UNDENIABLE SUB-LIMINAL EFFECT. That is EXACTLY what the Far Right is aiming at. To sneak into our mental outlook. The images in "Der Sturmer" showing Jews as lecherously making advances to innocent "Nordic" girls, or in German films associating Jews with swarming rats {a "health hazard", like rats are}, paved the way for the quote, "cleansing" of Germany of Jews.

An image showing President Obama as a "vampire", suggests, to the sub-conscious mind, an evil and exaggerated sexuality; and a "foreigness" that is used against President Obama, an American citizen like every President has to be, merely because of his "African" skin color. {Which is also associated with rampant sexuality. Always a good hate-device. "Our" women are in danger of rape from this "evil dark-skinned stranger, foreigner, alien"......}

I AM GOING TO SUGGEST TO CARE2 THAT THEY REMOVE THIS IMAGE. I SUGGEST THAT THERE BE A PROTEST AGAINST IT.

In a climate where VIOLENCE AGAINST OUR PRESIDENT is ADVOCATED OPENLY -- you as an Australian, perhaps, are not aware of this, David -- an IMAGE SUGGESTING HE IS SOME SORT OF A RAPIST, A SEXUAL PREDATOR, is NOT appropriate on Care2!

Here is from a magazine that just happens to be lying open in front of me, as I was reading it.... {The Progressive, November 2009}
OBAMA SEASON
From AP: An Idaho Republican gubernatorial hopeful {!} insists he was only joking when he said he'd buy a license to hunt President Barack Obama. Rex Rammell, a former elk rancher slated to run against incumbent C.L. "Butch" Otter in the May 2010 GOP primary, made the comment at a Republican rally in Twin Falls where talk turned to the state's planned wolf hunt, for which hunters must purchase an $11.50 wolf tag. When an audience member shouted a question about "Obama tags", Rammell responded, "The Obama tags? We'd buy some of those." Rammell told the Associated Press he was just being sarcastic and sees no reason to apologize for the comment."

While the article, which apparently makes some sense, may be worth looking at, the image DOES NOT FIT THE ARTICLE. David, you didn't cook up the image yourself, but got it off some Far-right site. The Far Right is REALLY making an assault on all of our consciousness.

You, an Australian, HAVE "Socialized" Health Care. If YOU or someone in YOUR family were to get really sick, you wouldn't have to go bankrupt! WHY DO YOU SPREAD A NAUSEATING IMAGE ORIGINATING FROM THOSE WHO WOULD DENY EQUAL HEALTH CARE TO AMERICANS, LIKE WHAT AUSTRALIANS AND OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES HAVE?????

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 9:01 pm
I submitted the following notice to Care2 Customer Service.
I didn't see any way to comment on the PICTURE; so I had to comment on the ARTICLE. Altho it isn't the Article that's at fault!
I invite EVERY RIGHT-THINKING CARE2 MEMBER to submit something similar, speak your mind to Care2 by pressing "Flag as inappropriate" under the top article. A thing will come up, then, where you can write your comments to Care2 Staff.

Here is what I wrote to Care2 Staff:
This STORY is NOT inappropriate. What IS inappropriate, is THE ILLUSTRATION ACCOMPANYING THE STORY. There is a general pervasive attitude abroad in this country, of VIOLENCE TOWARDS OUR PRESIDENT. In my Comment to this story, I GIVE JUST ONE EXAMPLE of this sort of violence, from an AP story about an Idaho gubenatorial hopeful who talks about "an Obama hunting license"!
David, a friend of mine actually, thinks he is being "funny". Actually, a cartoon picture of the President COMMITTING AN ACT OF BLOODY SEXUAL VIOLENCE, IS NOT "FUNNY". ESPECIALLY not, in the CLIMATE OF VIOLENCE that has arisen. If the President were really a Sexual Predator on American Womanhood, it would INVITE RETALIATORY VIOLENCE; serve as an EXCUSE for it.
The picture/cartoon is NOT APPROPRIATE TO THE STORY; and the story stands well on its own WITHOUT THIS NAUSEATING, DEGRADING PICTURE. Which could classify as FAR, FAR RIGHT-WING ANTI-HEALTH-CARE LYING PROPAGANDA.
It is actually a form of HATE SPEECH. It does NOT belong, emphatically, on Care2. It is NOT what we are about!!!!

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 9:06 pm
It is NOT Funny, but on Halloween there is license for some humor. I have to agree with the other comments. Hate is so thick from the anti abortion, Palin, warmongers, war criminal, lying to go to war, using demolitions on the World Trade Towers and I will ignore id gools and black gold vampires, that it isn't funny.

Obama is such a good person compared to the corrupt and stupid bush repug folks, that biting Liberty is too much. Now if Obama was biting big Corporate America or Health Insurance or Wallstreet Investment Bankers - No better Obamazilla stomping down the towers of privilege, wealth, and corruption to save the people from being corporate slaves, exploited, killed in illegal and immoral wars and give them single payer health care, that would make me smile. How about a supper hero that converts oil to solar cells and algae farms and SUV's to electric cars and coal to organic farms and food... ? Nahhh that's too much of a treat and too real for the wingnutz..

The Image you showed does not fit the article and it is offensive. Stay off the right wingnutz sites when you find these images PZ.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 9:21 pm
'Now if Obama was biting big Corporate America or Health Insurance or Wallstreet Investment Bankers - No better Obamazilla stomping down the towers of privilege, wealth, and corruption to save the people from being corporate slaves, exploited, killed in illegal and immoral wars and give them single payer health care, that would make me smile. How about a supper hero that converts oil to solar cells and algae farms and SUV's to electric cars and coal to organic farms and food... ? '

Casey, I like the way you think.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 10:37 pm
You guys are as bad as "It's OK if you're Republican!" I had to laugh when I saw the picture, there's not a damn thing subliminal about it. Hard to believe only a couple of years ago you two whiners were sniveling about the abuses of Faux News and Bushco stifling debate. Casey thinks if you don't think like him and agree with everything he says, you're the one with the problem, but at least BMutiny is consistent. Thank you, by the way for illustrating the total retardedness of the concept of "hate-speech." But that's just my opinion.

David, I guess it matters not anything you have done or are doing to inspire REAL discussion on REAL issues. No, you have now "offended" the righteous! (Or should I say the lefteous?) Good job, by the way.

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 10:44 pm
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-- Noam Chomsky

I think it applies to illustrations too!

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 10:52 pm
The story is okay - the picture, not so much.. it's not as bad as some, but it really doesn't convey the attitude of the article - so that makes it just a gimmick... a reich-wing gimmick at that. But I guess if you wanted to attract the Trolls, it worked!;)

Tuesday October 27, 2009, 11:57 pm
Locan, do you have any idea what the word "subliminal" means?
The fact, one that EVERYONE is agreed on, that the picture not only has NOTHING to do with the article, but is in fact quite CONTRARY to the spirit of the article, would in fact HAMPER genuine rational discussion of the issues that the article brings up.
Also, I find the picture very OFF-PUTTING; anyone not familiar with the issues raised by the article {which I had already seen}, would tend after looking at the picture, to NOT want to go to where the article was.
Anyone NOT familiar with the issues raised by the article, would get a COMPLETELY FALSE IMPRESSION, looking at the picture ONLY.

There are "subliminal" issues involved, as there were in that notorious cartoon of the shot chimpanzee......remember that one?

Therefore I repeat my assertions. It is NOT "Free Speech" to yell Fire! in a crowded theater. It is NOT "Free Speech" at this point, to "stir the pot" when it comes to the idea of violence against the President. That picture, put out by the Far Right, was NOT intended to precipitate a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of Health Care Issues. What is their POINT? The "statement" {sub-liminally} is, I guess, that our President is a Monster and a stake ought to be driven thru his heart. I can't see it as anything else.

If you look it up, the depiction of BLOOD has a powerful effect on Human physiology. People who make gorefest movies, makeup, etc., KNOW this. That was one of the objectionable features of the "chimpanzee cartoon". It, too, suggested killing as a "political solution". The whole thing of Black Men and White Women..... {Miss Liberty is not a Black Woman}, is as you very well know, also fraught in America's history........

Another SUBLIMINAL effect, {to some people}, would be the upside-down American flag, a signal of urgent emergency.....
Sub-liminal has as one of its meanings, effects and references in your memory, that are not noticed by your CONSCIOUS mind.....

I hope SEVERAL people reading this will notify Care2; and the picture will be REPLACED with something less violently offensive. The ARTICLE, and any subsequent discussion of it, would GREATLY BENEFIT as a result......

Loathsome as it is, I certainly do not intend to try and shut down "Hate Speech" on its OWN websites where it BELONGS; those of the REPUBLICAN PARTY and the RELIGIOUS RIGHT. But, Hate Speech does NOT belong displayed on Care2! That was decided long ago, too. Anymore than Pornography would belong at the head of this News Article. I think Care2 when made aware, would agree that this picture WAS "Hate Speech".

I think anyone able to read the English language, would understand that I do not try to censor or get rid of a picture or cartoon "I disagree with". There are LOTS of cartoons "I disagree with".
This cartoon is part of a continued effort, to SUGGEST AND PROMOTE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; in this case, by insinuating that he "deserves" it, "because he himself is violent and depraved........" And all this, IN AN ATMOSPHERE, as I think I have satisfactorily shown, of ACTUAL THREATS and unfunny "jokes" that are not REALLY meant as jokes.....

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 12:12 am
I don't usually flag: but I just flagged Locan with the following statement:

"I think Locan needs to be "rapped on the knuckles" for "whiners", and "sniveling", and "retardedness". This is NOT Civil Discourse. This is NOT up to Care2 standards! She will think I am "censoring" her entire post. I just think she needs to learn some Rules of Civility in Polite Society."

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 12:15 am
True Socialism is not what Russia and China gave a bad name too. Don't listen to the bs from Corporstions giving it a bad name. The Mondragon Cooperative is true Socialism. The workers own the Company and even the Bank.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:45 am
Green stars to Locan for having the good sense to laugh at a great cartoon and not be so ridiculously uptight as to take it either seriously or an affront to any political party in particular...For those with any sense of American politics please note that the footer on the picture is a quote from Maggie Thatcher!

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:00 am
To this point everyone appears to have ignored the posted story and only seen fit to comment on the picture...

Soooo, in order to prevent me from having to flag everyone for posting "off topic" comments (That IS against care2 rules!)...

In the interests of humour (and sanity) I propose the following re-vamped title:

"What Constitutes a Very Well Executed Funny Cartoon Pertinent to the Halloween Theme?"...

Preferably one that Obama, I and anyone else with even half a sense of humor would probably have a good laugh at...

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:04 am
Sugggestions welcome but in the meantime did anyone give a thought to or take the time to send a "scary" letter to your member/s of congress?

Back on track?...

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:12 am
Just scanned the care2 rules...Nothing there about "flagging pictures" but a lot about prohibiting "personal attacks"...OK?

The end...Back to topic?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:41 am
This perfectly fits the Care2 Code of Conduct definition of a "personal attack": from Locan: "Casey thinks if you don't think like him and agree with everything he says, you're the one with the problem, but at least BMutiny is consistent." Whatever that means.
Such language as she uses, and personal attacks on individuals, add NOTHING to any discussion. Care2 knows that. If the individuals named were newbies or timid, such personal attacks as this, would serve to drive them off of Care2.

It is not a personal attack on you, David, to say that you are Australian. Anymore than it would be a "personal attack" on me, to say that I was a Washingtonian!
The story submitted would be much better served, without a completely IRRELEVANT Far-Right-Wing picture clogging it up. That picture SCREAMS to be commented on, with its offensiveness; just like the Obama/chimpanzee cartoon did. That was the INTENT of the Right Wing, in producing that cartoon; to be maximally offensive. As an Australian -- that is not an attack on you, just a statement of fact -- I think you are UNAWARE of how this cartoon would be taken by an American. By a RIGHT-WING American. Or by a non-right-wing American subjected to constant Right-wing barrages of similar garbage.
I think there is a Cultural Gap here, David; that I have also, as I said before, experienced with Brits. Nothing against either Australians or Brits. Just a Cultural Gap. It seems to be THERE.

Also that comment by Margaret Thatcher, which name I saw immediately in spite of the small print, seems IRRELEVANT in a discussion of Health Care? and you say WE are "off-topic"?

I will re-state what I said; the topic is an interesting, relevant and NECESSARY one; and the topic of Health Care would be MUCH BETTER SERVED, without a mis-leading to say the least, offensive, and completely OPPOSITE picture. You needn't feel defensive, David, for making a Cultural Mistake. We all blunder sometimes.
Anyone who finds the "cartoon" as offensive as I do, please tell Care2 about it. Care2 can remove the picture and leave the important story, I'm sure. This picture is a form of Far-right Obama Death Porn.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:45 am
Willie Horton as a tactic wasn't funny, but it worked. This is like that. Some will smile because it makes points for them. Its not a laugh. Its a sneer. Its mean spirited to the max, but should not be given much attention by us. We have other things to do. Its typical in this politics of destruction world we live in and not surprising except that the poster thinks we should be laughing. Yeah...right.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 3:43 am
"What Constitutes a Very Well Executed Funny Cartoon Pertinent to the Halloween Theme?"...

"Pertinent to the Halloween Theme" does NOT keep something from being offensive. In the U.S., there are for sale in some places, "Illegal Alien" costumes, combining in a mask the "facial features" of "aliens" {from Planet X} and "Mexicans" combined.... complete with an orange {prison} jumpsuit and a Green Card. THAT is considered offensive. Also. Altho the Far Right thinks they're REALLY FUNNY...... and is buying them.

How would a right-wing American take the Obama-vampire cartoon? As a covert incitement, or "permission", to commit violence on Obama.
How would a non-right-wing American take the Obama-vampire cartoon? As covert incitement for the Far Right to commit violence on Obama.
We've seen it and heard it all before; for months, both before and after President Obama's election.

I'm sorry, but people from other countries seem to have a HARD TIME GRASPING what the Right Wing in this country is REALLY up to, is REALLY saying and doing. There just is NO ANALOGY with "similar" Right-wing parties in your countries. There is a kind of political "Anarchy" going on here; and I don't mean a Left-wing type of Anarchy.

Therefore, what may seem to a foreigner "funny", is not necessarily so, to most well-meaning Americans. {Americans who don't find it necessary to personally attack other Care2 members on Care2 postings.}

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 3:50 am
David, I think you're really missing something. You say go back to topic, back on track. Back? The picture has been the topic on this track since the offensive reich-wing 'artwork' made it's appearance. Honestly, what did you expect? I can't believe you are that nonchalant about what is happening in my country with the far rights' determination to destroy this President, by any and all means. But more to the point, why would you want to contribute to their effort.

The topic of this thread became the picture the moment you posted it. You know what they say about a picture.... it's worth a thousand words. But you knew that, I'm sure ?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 4:22 am
I dont agree with the pic either....He is my president and I do support him. I may not enjoy everything that is going on but still the same I give him the respect he deserves becasue the american people voted and he won. I really dont care if someone trys to slam me down becasue you cant get to me that way. Eveyones govenment leaders have flaws I dont care where your from. Yes lets talk about how change can come along and not trying to slam MY president or wish him dead or overthrown...Please get back to the real subject and get rid of this awful pic.

Big Gorilly Hugs

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 4:25 am
Wake up America!...Come join the rest of the world...One people, one world...

Sense of humour required....Life is short, let's make fun of it?...Perhaps no one has noticed that the threads I post are in the best interests of Americans, Australians et al and, ultimately, the world?...

Not a problem for me but when a cartoon is more important than healthcare for all, I have to wonder why I bother!

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 4:51 am
Health care for all...what a wonderful concept. Tell me, David, the Thatcher quote, what is the significance? Isn't that a warning not to socialize our healthcare? That is something that you enjoy down under, is it not?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 5:25 am
Yes 'we' do enjoy "socialised" (socialised is only a word) healthcare for all...For some obscure? reason the Australian "well off" don't mind subsidising healthcare for all...I guess that it must appear to Americans rather strange?...An overly greedy ethos?...(or education gone wrong?)..."Competition" and "success" is everything?...!5 houses, 25 cars and 37 caravans per family equates "SUCCESS?...

The homeless Australian guy, living on the street, in a cardboard box, will never be denied free healthcare...Nor will the underinsured workers ever be denied free healthcare, (or go bankrupt because the bank has foreclosed on their home and they can no longer afford corporate controlled, and absurdly high, healthcare insurance payments...

Is it not time that America, the 37th rated healthcare disaster followed the Oz Example...OZ is not #1 but the US is #37?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 6:53 am
So just so I have this straight, this threads goal is to help an American cause by showing our President who champions that cause, sucking the blood out of a very unhappy looking and bleeding Lady Liberty. How absurdly counter productive can an effort be? This is like telling anti semitic jokes to a crowd at Auswitchand and insisting their failure to laugh shows they just have no sense of humor. With friends like this who needs enemies.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 7:06 am
"So just so I have this straight, this threads goal is to help an American cause"...Yes!

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 7:30 am
David, I always write to my representatives and phone as well. I also contact those that don't represent to let them know my feelings as an American citizen.

As far as the illustration, I find it interesting that this offends when so many others could be considered offensive as well. I have never flagged anyone in this forum or any Care2 location. People have freedom to show illustrations, to speak their minds. I am not to be the one to censor. If it offends you, speak your mind, but don't try to silence people. Just my opinion.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 7:45 am
You lost me on this one, David. The image is offensive, has nothing to do with the story, and plays into the hands of the right wing. You make our job even more difficult. I know you mean well, but there's no need to sensationalize a story for attention...especially in this manner.

How can I focus on the subject when this horrific image is facing me?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 8:15 am
Very easily my ex friend Marion...Look at it, laugh at it and get on with the job of correcting the woes of America?...I realise that humour is not the great American strongpoint, but selling out to corporate care2 is?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 8:18 am
David, you are a progressive, right? Then admit you made a: A faux pas (pronounced /ˌfoʊˈpɑː/, plural: faux pas /ˌfoʊˈpɑː(z)/) is a violation of accepted social rules (for example, standard customs or etiquette rules)[1]. Faux pas vary widely from culture to culture, and what is considered good manners in one culture can be considered a faux pas in another. The term comes originally from French, and literally means "false step".[2]

This expression is usually used in social and diplomatic contexts. The term has been in use in English for some time and is no longer italicized when written. In French, it is employed literally to describe a physical loss of balance as well as figuratively, in which case the meaning is roughly the same as in English. Other familiar synonyms include gaffe and bourde (bourde, unlike faux pas, can designate any type of mistake).[3]"

Otherwise, you are too proud to admit a mistake and you are saying I AM A CLOSET REPUG. You have noticed the joy of the right wingnutz here commenting how great thou art??? It is a red flag when these ditto heads like it when you insult progressives or Obama, get it?

Fighting for social freedoms is fighting the corrupted mentality of "rich and powerful is good or godly." These right wingnutz started with churches getting hundreds of Millions of $$$$$ from the poor and uneducated or intellectually challenged folks and self justifying the theft with religious righteousness. Then bush and cheney's role modeled how stupid people can lead other stupid people and the rest of U.S. have to follow to illegal wars, tax cuts for the rich and powerful running the country, so education and social services must be removed or shut down. Education and Health Care are not important to corporate pirates and their followers.

These ditto heads are empowered by the absurdity of their own positions. This is the group effect that occurs in church or KKK meetings. Stupid ideas of G Beck or R. Limbaugh are embraced to form around stupidity denied is power secured by the group. How else could religion and bush style politics survive?

Health Care and education is being under financed and destroyed by the greed and avarice of the rich and powerful BITING LADY LIBERTY, not Obama who is championing the people here in the U.S. and fighting special interests or the rich and powerful corrupting our government and like vampire's bite causing the victim to blindly follow the vampire, these right wingnutz can not think critically or question their leaders or the stupidity of following them...

Your image empowers them against Obama and free thinking people in the U.S. It is support for NeoNazi groups, right wing fascists, and the repug party that represents the rich and powerful corruption of our government.

Apologize Pz, and don't be so macho in your denial or so stoned that you can't see the problem. If you can't then you are saying you agree with the right wingnutz, who are currently agreeing with you because they find the offensive image of hate against Obama making him dehumanized and a monster. No president has been more human and real to America and never have we in America needed a president more than we need Obama's great humanity and intelligence than now.

Hasta Siempre, la lucha para humanidad y libertad contra la corupcion y esclavatude de la gente por los ricos y los poderosos bendejos y cavrones. Viva la Revolucion ! ! La lucha clasista continua mas hoy que nunca...

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 8:48 am
To bad the stated goal is so sorely undermined...even perverted by a cartoon which has drawn defenders to your side who's goal it is to undermine us. Telling isn't it. Now thats funny if your into irony, but not positive for us, not helpful. So, no thank you very much.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 10:23 am
Let's see; what is socialism? State controlled, state run, and paid for by taxpayers, right?

Well, what is the military, wars, military benefits, politicians healthcare benefits, military healthcare benefits, social security, streets, schools, government buildings, government agencies, bridges, etc. etc... I could go on and on...

I think it is funny how socialism is attacked, usually by the very people who are receiving the very Socialistic thing that they are attacking; military, politicians, seniors on Social Security, etc...

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:00 pm
We often disagree David but freedom of the "press" as it is an important building block of all free countries .... The scariest health care story of all would be the American government taking the system over .... It will not work and it will bankrupt America - so far it looks like it will not pass .... I will be praying for it NOT to pass ....

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:09 pm
The scariest thing Northern is that if the government does not take over the healthcare system big pharma will remain in charge as usual and the homeless, unemployed and those who have had their houses reposessed by the banks will never have healthcare at all...

But then you don't care about them, do you?...

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:11 pm
I got a bone to pick with you, David....you said, '?...I realise that humour is not the great American strongpoint,'
Are you freaking kidding me? The country that gave the world George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Jerry Seinfeld and Rodney Dangerfield, to name but a few. I think we know funny.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:28 pm
goodness..., I thought the image was funny, after I read the statement with it. I appreciate your humorous touch to the "call to action," David. keep shining...much love and peace...namaste

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 1:44 pm
David, that was a cheap shot to shoot at Northern. We all care about those who cannot afford healthcare and those who are disabled. We just want to get it right here in America and not find outselves in the outbasket in a few years because we didn't do it right. All we have to do is look towards Canada (and other countries) to see that they are now examining private health insurance...so, please don't say we don't care....we shouldn't have to apologize for wanting to get it right and have it affordable for our country. And why would you have a problem with that? We also need to expose the slackards and the illegals. I'm all for that and get the three generation families on welfare off the easy street system so that they will have to get a job.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:06 pm

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:13 pm
whoops.

Try this one

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 2:28 pm
Tell the Senate Democratic Caucus is time for accountability. If ANY member of the 60 Member Caucus joins a Republican filibuster of healthcare reform with a public option, the Caucus must immediately strip that Senator of all Committee Chairmanships

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 3:31 pm
Ok sorry but I chuckled at the picture but I can see where it would get some in a tiffy. David most of these comments are off topic and you have a right to remove each one of them if you so choose.

How would I fix healthcare - maybe start with the billions of dollars being frauded by Medicare every year. I mean there was just a story on it and there is over a million going out each month, FRAUD...If they can't run Medicare/caid then how the heck do they plan on running something new.

2nd - Yes I would like to see affordable healthcare for every American, who wants it, I dont think if someone doesnt want healthcare they should be penalized, it is their choice - we do live in America. If you want everyone to have healthcare then let them have access to what is already there and then regulate big insurance companies. Made Medicare better and people will drop their current coverage take up medicare/caid and the big insurance companies will get it - once they start loosing a profit they will get it and will have to bring their prices down.

Give Dr's salaries - not you get this amount for seeing 20 patients in one day or this amount for performing 50 surgeries in a week. Of course Dr's will want to see as many patients as they can and operate all the time.

Set a straight tax that will help pay for the increase in Medicare/caid - like Canada, I was recenly there and they pay 13% sales tax on everything - drive thru to walmart...after a day or two you get use to it. No I dont want to see my cost of living increase and trust me my family income is under $80K.

My personal story - this is how my employer got one over on us last year and this year with Healthcare. I'll tell you this - I work for one of the biggest banks in the World and yes we got tarp money & may be one of the only banks able to pay it back - so 2008 we were told that there would be changes to our 2009 health benefits. They went to one company and yes our co-pays stayed at $15 for regular office visits they now include a deductible not one price for the whole family but one for each person covered. So now my daughter and I had to both reach a $1500 deductible before A**NA could cover the rest without me having to pay out of pocket. Of course my daughter had to get a new set of ear tubes that cost us out of pocket over $600 and speech therapy lessons that A**NA tried to deny but her ENT Dr sent a letter and it was finally approved so that was $400 less we had to pay out of pocket. Then I had a stress test done, no wonder huh, and out of pocket, this is no lie, it is costing me $863 - thankfully they offer payment plans or I would be in a bankruptcy attorney's office...Next year we are going on my hubbys healthcare and yes there is a deductible but its $1500 for the 3 of us not each of us...that will save a bunch.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 3:37 pm
Oh but I do care very much David .... more than you know and of course you being in Australia and me being in Canada (right next door as it were) my perspective is totally different from the one you have. Absolute opposite opinions of what will make America strong and help them stay strong. All a hand out does is weaken a nation and indebt itself to each other until it collapses from within. In spite of what you believe David people are not dying in the streets of America. No, on the contrary everyone gets care. It is just the difference of the level of care they get. They can opt into that 'wonderful' government run option and stand in lines for care and treatment - no family doctors .... sit in a wating room and hope to be seen in a clinic and if not return the next day to try again or die trying at least WHICH IS HAPPENING HERE IN CANADA WITH OUR WONDERFUL GOVERNMENT RUN SYSTEM .... or they can wait until they are my mother's age 84 - system almost killed her after a life time of good health it did and now because of all the antibiotics they gave her to cure the infection she got from them she needs dialysis because they killed her kidneys - but we were taken into a room and told because of her age she will probably die before she ever gets the treatment because everyone younger will get the treatment first - of course if we PAY OUT OF POCKET - then she can get the treatment right away and live --- so there is the REAL story of the health care they are being offered in America David ---
NOTHING in life is free and when they have almost 50% of the American population that does not pay any income tax then who do you think is going to end up paying for that failure of a system (and yes - it is a failure before it even starts?) ....
But in actual fact David it is YOU that does not care about America ---- no, not at all because your own health care system is not much better off than mine - so before you try and sell snake oil to other people how about each of us making sure our own countries are doing the right thing? At least I am telling the truth .... the system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world and it is a complete and utter failure ....

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 5:19 pm
"NOTHING in life is free and when they have almost 50% of the American population that does not pay any income tax"...

Which 50% does not pay income tax Northern eh? :-)...The 50% who can afford to hide their "real" income and dump their money in "secret" offshore bank accounts or those, living on the breadline and can't afford to pay it anyway?...

"David people are not dying in the streets of America."...?

"But in actual fact David it is YOU that does not care about America"...

Then why do I often post threads that are really only of concern to Americans?

"the system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world and it is a complete and utter failure ...."

That statement is about as true as saying you and I still live in the "British Empire"...Have you not noticed that "Empire Pink" has all but disappeared of the map of the world?...

The system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world (All except America) and it is a complete and utter SUCCESS!

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 5:53 pm
Signed, MJ M.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 6:04 pm
signed, MJM

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 6:11 pm
"the system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world and it is a complete and utter failure ...."

"They can opt into that 'wonderful' government run option and stand in lines for care and treatment - no family doctors .... sit in a wating room and hope to be seen in a clinic and if not return the next day to try again or die trying at least"

Anything would be better than our current system. Health insurance companies are reaping profits while denying coverage to those who need it. Blue cross/Blue shield has been around for some time and enjoys a decent reputation, but in true, greedy American fashion, they're denying coverage to a friend of mine who has Blue Cross/Blue shield and is dying of lung cancer.

Northern's comments about what the U.S. is being offered are typical of the "talking points" generated by Republican propagandists and broadcast by Fox news and Limbaugh. The idea is that if people keep hearing these absurd notions that the government wants to "take over" our health care system, and that patients in countries with socialized medicine are dying while waiting on line for health care, they will believe it.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 6:15 pm
And for the record, I have a full and frequently sick sense of humor, but especially given the current climate of demonization of President Obama, I don't find the cartoon funny either.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 6:24 pm
Is this a Halloween trick or treat thing? The picture does not match the article, hence the picture is the trick and the article is the treat? Obama is a vampire for halloween right? Other wise I would have to take the picture and caption seriously wouldn't I? I had allready wrote my health care story a long time ago and I bet there are many many more stories out there.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 7:06 pm
I appologise to anyone offended by "that picture"...But from an entirely apolitical view I thought it good for a laugh...

One (small and ever shrinking) world, one people and one unbiased sense of humour to go with it? :-)

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 7:51 pm
"David, you are a progressive, right? Then admit you made a: A faux pas (pronounced /ˌfoʊˈpɑː/, plural: faux pas /ˌfoʊˈpɑː(z)/) is a violation of accepted social rules (for example, standard customs or etiquette rules)[1]. Faux pas vary widely from culture to culture, and what is considered good manners in one culture can be considered a faux pas in another. The term comes originally from French, and literally means "false step".[2]"...

Lots of unneccesary words but I don't make fox paws Casey, I tell it like it is. Political correctness is not for me and is bullshit to my ears...If someone is blind they are not "visually impaired" they are BLIND!

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 8:19 pm
'Trick or Treatment - Share Your Personal "Scary" Healthcare Story With Your Members of Congress'

Is'nt this more fitting?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 9:02 pm
You are correct Thomas, "Anything is better than the system we have in the US today" my paraphrasing. Because there is NO REGULATION and sooo much waste.

I know a good friend who uses BiPAP for snoring and snoring, as many do NOT know, indicates sleep apnea. Not always, but frequently the sounds made by snoring are caused by obstruction of the airways through the back of the nose and throat. There is a vibration that causes the noise/snore, but a little more relaxed and breathing stops and you have an apnea.

Anyway, I knew he was using the equipment, so I like to market on the internet for average prices. I found his equipment for $625. He didn't want to buy it because he has Blue X Blue S or BCBS and they wont pay people for what they spend, instead they pay directly to the health care provider or DME Durable Medical Equipment provider. So, this happened in August and I didn't ask how things were going till last week. He told me nothing has happened because BCBS requires a new prescription and that means he has to get a new sleep study. That is scheduled for November, if there is a cancellation-he is next in line for next month's cancellations, but his for sure appointment is in February. Meanwhile his machine isn't working right and he wakes up a lot and is tired during the day.

I read up on apnea and found a surprising fact. A high percentage of heart attacks are caused by lack of O2 to the heart muscle. I wanted to know how many fatal heart attacks are due to apnea, but couldn't get those demographics, so if you know let me know please. I found:
"The researchers found that men with untreated severe sleep apnea were almost three times as likely as healthy participants to suffer from a fatal heart attack or stroke, and more than three times as likely to have a non-fatal heart attack or stroke or to require heart surgery. Men with sleep apnea who were treated with CPAP had about one-third the risk of having a fatal heart problem compared to men with untreated severe sleep apnea." But nothing on national demographics.
http://www.the-pillow.com.au/resources/dangers-of-sleep-apnea.php

and a better site:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/118/10/1080

The second explains the technical and physical qualities very well.

The point is his sleep deal can kill him. BCBS is willing to take the risk... So I asked what are they doing? He said they did this the last time too. That even with his doctor's referral and followup sleep study from the last time... but how long ago? He said this happened 3 years ago in March or so, and BCBS said they won't pay for a machine again for 4 more years when he got it. He is going to have to wait till March before the GD BCBS will replace the faulty equipment that could keep him from having a heart attack o_O...

On top of that he couldn't buy the equipment or he wastes his money on premiums to BCBS and barely can afford that and BCBS made him lease the equipment for one year at 247.00 or so.. I remember $240 something. I worked the math and it cost around $3000 for the lease. I asked why can't he buy one off the internet and have BCBS pay him for that with his existing prescription and he said they won't pay individuals only service or equipment providers...

So, to make a LOOOOOONG story Long... He ended up paying close to $6,400 because the sleep study cost another $2400 and for all the gear that he needed for the machine, mask, tubing, water heater and other stuff. The price on the internet was about $1000 for the same stuff.

Think of the waste writ 200 million times. It is estimated that 60% of men and women out their have sleep apnea. IF you look at other illness or treatable prevention kind of care that includes DME and testing.

If we as a collective, the people of the U.S., negotiated for our equipment through a centralized federal broker, we could buy at less than half the internet retail price and that would mean that the equipment went to $500 and the government could make a profit at that and ship directly to the user.

Why do we need to pay more than 10 times what it could cost with socialized or centralized systems?

Corporations need to run health care like a business is why and profit is the goal, not people's health.

Socialized Medicine is not perfect but corrupt capitalism or corporate insurance run health care is like paying pirates $90 out of every $100 you spend. FOR WHAT? For greed and avarice and the stupidity of Americans who fear change and have little common sense, it seems.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 9:45 pm
With all of the major wars going on-class war,military war,the war against democracy etc,i'm not going to get too sidetracked with a cartoon which was posted with good intention.
Obama can be criticised from the left as much as from the right..unfortunately progressive Americans often feel no choice but to defend Obama from the psychopaths of the right..This seems to be why attacks on the current President are seen by decent progressives ,as an attack on the entire liberal left movement.
From my European left wing perspective,I see Obama as a centre right politician..yet he was the best of the two ruling class sanctioned alternatives for the US number one spot.
Progressives to my mind,should be holding the Dems to account..with as much veracity as we held Cheney's mob to account..
Attacks that criticize Obama for being socialistic,a race warrior on the part of black people or for being fascistic are clearly unhinged..and reflect how far right the critic is..criticism of Obama based on his aquiecense to Repuke senators,corporate interests and force's of conservativism on the other hand seem pretty spot on.
I can understand that within the duopoly of US party politics,that there may seem to be a need to defend "our guy" from the greater evil..but the truth is that none of the main parties really represents the masses of America.
Muchos love to all sides in the above debate..except those who seriously beleive that Obama is a radical socialist...now that is funny.

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 10:06 pm
The system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world (All except America) and it is a complete and utter SUCCESS!

That is a lie David - an out and out lie - It has not worked and does not work - it is a money pit - and there is not enough money in the world to throw at something to make it work ---
Regardless ..... If anything is passed it will be repealled and all of it will be much ado about nothing ..... America need health care reform but they need to make sure it is done right .... and they will ....

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 10:57 pm
I would never call anyone an out and out liar .... I was referring to the fact that he said "The system they are being offered has been tried - is in effect in countries all over the world (All except America) and it is a complete and utter SUCCESS! " .... That statement is a lie - and because Australia and Canada have similiar health care systems he should be well aware of that fact -
Research that has been done about these systems around the world have proven his statement to be without merit - Lou Dobbs did a recent indepth report on health care systems around the world and a lot needs to be learned from the fact that they are failures .... money pits .... I gave some of my own personal examples to back this up about my Canadian system ....
David and I disagree on many things but we both have differeing views on most things - that does not make either one of us liars - we just have different perspectives and different opinions / life experiences ....
It is inappropriate to tell those of us who are not in America to 'take a hike.'
Care 2 is an international site and we have a right to post opinions about things (just as David from Australia had the right to post this story about a country that is not his). You do not have to agree with what I say but it is inappropriate of you to tell anyone to 'take a hike' just because you do not agree with my view and that is what you did. It is offensive and a personal attack.
What happens in America affects the whole world and I know that health care reform is needed .... But as this will affect such a large part of the American economy which is already in dire trouble - this needs to be done right. You live in the greatest country in the world and you need to get this right - you cannot afford to end up in a quagmire that will make your health care system worse instead of better if your intent is to help people. BTW, I am not calling you names so why are you calling me names?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 11:24 pm
"that foul,disgusting and obscenely offensive picture"...?

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 11:35 pm
Ok, it looks as though we are directly on topic now and though I loathe long posts, I appreciate Casey's latest bullseye. It is only eclipsed by Panda's direct hit. I also appreciate Northern's faith in us. Yes we can and, yes, we will!

Take notice people, this is an opportunity to take action and if you're American and not taking action, you're the problem. Yes even more than politicians that perpetuate torture and war defending corporate interests with immunity. I'd say I'm just calling a spade a spade but...

It is telling to me that it is always women that attack me and for some reason think I'm a woman. Hmmm..........

Wednesday October 28, 2009, 11:39 pm
What names? Who?

I've noted that Northern is the only person from a country with socialized medicine who says on Care2, or anywhere else for that matter that socialized medicine doesn't work. I'm more inclined to believe the dozens of comments I read from others who live in these countries that say it works fine.

My only experience with socialized medicine was in Amsterdam where a friend of mine had to go to the ER twice due to being hit by a bicyclist. The first time he got a concussion, the second time needed stitches. I was with him the second time and so saw the interior of their rather clean and orderly hospital. My friend was treated immediately and was back in service in no time. The staff was pleasant, smiled and seemed not the least bit stressed or overworked. Being a non-citizen, my friend had to pay for these services, and then only a few hundred dollars or so. Seemed to be working quite fine to me.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 12:24 am
As Halloween is upon us I like the picture David ! ....
Thomas, I gave an example in an earlier post of my experience last spring with my mother - "or they can wait until they are my mother's age 84 - system almost killed her after a life time of good health it did and now because of all the antibiotics they gave her to cure the infection she got from them she needs dialysis because they killed her kidneys - but we were taken into a room and told because of her age she will probably die before she ever gets the treatment because everyone younger will get the treatment first - of course if we PAY OUT OF POCKET - then she can get the treatment right away and live' ....
I had never had major dealings with our health care system having enjoyed (and my family as well) good health but when it went wrong it went terribly wrong and when I actually went in and saw the state of our hospitals I was shocked! Absolutely shocked at the filth and the absolute madness - overworked doctors and nurses - shortages of the same .... My Canadian system almost killed my mother who had been in very good health - she picked up a blood infection from the hospital when she was admitted last year for a chest infection .... it was madness from then on! Then I lost my family doctor and u know what I found out Thomas? I can't get one here in British Columiba now because there aren't any! Doctors are working for clinics only so you see who you get. Do you have a family doctor right now? Most doctors in America will opt out of any public system the government tries to impose and they have the right to do so .... if you have a family doctor what is he going to do? Will he still be there for you? If you go to a clinic nothing will change I promise you that - and there are tons of us right here on this site from Canada that say exactly what I say ....
We are not proud of this fact - and I tell you if I thought for one second that our system is going to work for you I would but I know it won't .... You need reform and we in the meantime are talking about returning to privatized health care because we simply cannot sustain our system .....

Thursday October 29, 2009, 4:27 am
"This seems to be why attacks on the current President are seen by decent progressives, as an attack on the entire liberal left movement."

Dear Panda, I luvs ya, I am not sayin' anything bad about ya when I say you're an "Australian". I have nuthin' against Australians, Brits, Germans, Poles, Iranians......
But, Dear Panda, AS an Australian, you do not really have any inkling of the Chaos and Anarchy that this country is threatened with at the present time. I mean by the CONSTANT, and I mean CONSTANT, threats on the life and safety of our President; and the life and safety of ANYone who works for the government. Government census takers, for example, have been MURDERED, just BECAUSE they are government agents. This IS the situation in the United States now. I think most countries have more strict GUN LAWS than the U.S. does......

Therefore, Dear Panda, you are MISTAKEN, it is another CULTURAL GAP; when you think that I, and Marion, and Casey, and Robert, and Thomas, "feel called upon to defend Obama against Rightist attacks".

Actually, we would be perfectly POWERLESS to "defend Obama" against A PHYSICAL ASSASSINATION. And THAT is what we Progressives in the United States are worried about just now. NOT "attacks on his policies that we have to defend". BUT, an event as earth-shaking and momentous, as the Kennedy assassination...... my friends on the Left will tell you that I am NOT exaggerating. You people who live in Australia can have no idea..... I don't know what your press tells you. But it isn't everything. It can't be or you wouldn't be taking the position you are.

THEREFORE, this "cartoon" which INCITES VIOLENCE, is of concern -- NOT because it "attacks some policy or other". And THAT is PRECISELY why the cartoon is NOT FUNNY. In the present climate, that cartoon is DANGEROUS. In some other climate of less violence, it would not be. But, in "some other climate of less violence", that cartoon WOULD NOT BE PRODUCED. That cartoon was PRODUCED TO INCITE VIOLENCE; not all by itself, of course, but as PART OF AN ON-GOING CONCERTED EFFORT. This effort is well-known by all Progressive Americans. We see it going on all around us; and talk about it a great deal of the time.

This is something you Ozzies don't seem to "get". And that is understandable; you have NOTHING JUST LIKE THAT IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY. You're so LUCKY!

We Progressive Americans, saw the danger of that cartoon immediately. The NON-progressive Americans, LOVED the cartoon. There is a huge divide here. Read Casey's comment on "faux pas".
David B. made a CULTURAL MISTAKE when he mistakenly, maybe not on purpose, published a Right-wing cartoon that is a part of a Corporate-American-Capitalist attempt to BRING DOWN THE PRESIDENT and turn this country into some sort of Fascist playground for Big Money, while the "starving peasants" can all go to hell.....

So David, as a not-with-it Australian, completely NEGATED the Progressive Intentions he most probably had originally when he published this article; by appending to it a cartoon that both had a Far-right-wing non-Progressive message {NOT a message of right-wing "policy", but of right-wing MURDER and HATE and INSANITY}; and a cartoon that was MUCH STRONGER AND MORE NOTICEABLE than the "Progressive" statements it CONTRADICTED.

David B. would save a lot of face, and redeem himself, if he admitted his faux pas, his gaffe, and JOINED WITH US IN ASKING CARE2 TO REMOVE THE OFFENSIVE CARTOON. David don't be stubborn and do start believing your {former} friends! Otherwise, the only friends you have LEFT, will be ones on the Right......

Thursday October 29, 2009, 5:50 am
I loved the picture!!! Happy Halloween!!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 6:37 am
To be fair, and not to lesson the life of a man. It was one census taker who was in a heavily populated drug production area in the backwoods. I do not believe that anything concrete has come from that. If I am wrong I missed it and apologize. It is a sad and disgusting situation in any light. As far as anarchy, a bit dramatic wouldn't you say.

Truly, this picture is no more offensive than many I have seen. I think if this one bothers you than they all should have. I don't appreciate any of our Presidents being depicted in a bad way and unfortunately that is not a mutual feeling among many here.

As far as outside opinions, again, who is anyone to tell someone else what they can and cannot post. Ridiculous.

As far as David, I do not think you need to fear he has gone over to the dark side. He has been in support of all of you for a long time and think he deserves better than what you are giving him.

Again, just my opinion.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 6:47 am
It should come as no surprise that I like the pictures tagline, "The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money". What is false about that statement? The picture is definitely on the aggressive side and the President has only been in office a few months so it is probably early to conclude that he is a Socialist.

That said, he said "McCain and Palin are calling me a Socialist, since when did they adopt the virtue of selfishness" on the Saturday before the election. The Virtue of Selfishness is by Ayn Rand, defector from the former Soviet Union, and the philosophical founder of the Libertarian movement. The phrasing was probably not an accident, Obama is a Harvard grad and highly intelligent. My thought is he must have socialist or Marxist leanings or he wouldn't have said it, but jury is out until we see a bit more.

A little, or a lot, of humor on Care2 political forums seems like a good idea to me! Out of curiousity, will the scary stories be available for the rest of us to read? Couldn't find that link in the article.

As to Care2 removing things, there are much more offensive comments available if Care2 is concerned about offensive material...

BMutinyIDefy - Love your comments, we may not agree on everything, but you defend you position well and intelligently.

Thanks David for the laugh!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 7:59 am
I see we have so many scarey healh care stories to share WOW how do you do it? Get people to spill there guts? Freedom to say what you want/freedom to show any pictures you wish. Health care is not a joke. But you like so many who donot understand,have one way do deal with it. just make jokes/put down/that it is a shame when you have no/or just don't care/show no responsibility for your actions.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 8:57 am
I agree Mamabear with these people against socialized medicine do not care or show responsibility for their actions, instead they pass the buck. They say hate speech against socialism or non-corporate politicians, such as Obama and slam progressive ideas because they are told to by the rich and powerful that run their lives... People that 'laugh" at Liberty being bitten by a vampire are vampires who suck the life out of our chances in the U.S. to make progressive advances, positive social programs, and improve the quality of life, but that is the nature of a vampire. Further, making Obama a monster is pleasurable to those who think Palin and G Beck are cool is logical too, even if it continues the moral and ethical bankruptcy that is the legacy of the bush&co religious right wing conservative neo-con-men...

The problem with corrupt capitalism is you continue the inequality that exists between the classes to the point that 50 million in America don't have enough money to NOT live in the streets or have access to health care. Capitalism in America has robbed generations of people from getting a good education, causing many to think god created the world while having no understanding of biology, chemistry, or genetics. We live in perpetual ignorance because of Corrupt Capitalism that has robbed the public of our democracy through election theft and ethical and moral bankruptcy. This is the cost of capitalism in the U.S. with corporations counting our votes, owning our media and biasing both print and broadcast information so people remain stupid and singing the same meaningless songs of corporate following mantras.

War is the most profitable corporate con from the neo-cons who took U.S. to war with their lies and trumped up blame for 9/11, and now these same followers like to red bait social programs that would remove corporate corruption. WHY? you like exploitation, theft of our democracy, bankruptcy of our ethics, morals, and perpetually sustaining religious righteousness and hate against anyone corporate media says sick-em to... ? Yes they like following the traditional kingdom model of the rich and powerful run the world and the rest of U.S. stupid, ignorant, believers in sky godz and fair tale cartoon logic mind sets just follow.

That is why they think "the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of people's money" when in fact you don't because the rich and powerful are really putting out this propaganda to save their money from being used for the benefit of the stupid, ignorant, believers in sky godz and fair tale cartoon logic mind sets just follow what the rich and powerful tell them to do.

Thinking critically would allow them to know that Canada has no national debt or problems with socialized single payer medicine and Cuba has survived well using the little money they have because Canada and Cuba regulate their markets so corporations can NOT corrupt and dominate their economic banking or trade systems, so health care works very well. Banking works without pirates ripping off people with bad fine print loans and insurance companies make millions while millions have no access to health care and millions more go bankrupt trying to pay medical bills that HAD health insurances.

DENIAL is not a river in Egypt, it is a state of mind in the U.S. when you say SOCIALISM or GOD IS DEAD and religious righteousness is a mental problem causing wars and politics of failure and man's inhumanity to man to corporate feudalism that is dominating American health care.

Socialism is democracy when compared to Corrupt Capitalism's revival of Feudalism. This is true from the perspective of the Constitution fighting the King of England's control or social programs today trying to return the democratic rule of the people to the U.S. that is currently run by Corporate America. This has been the struggle since America started: the battle of the rich and powerful, since Christ actually, dominating government and the rest of the people follow with little to say or no rights to change what is being done.

Socialism today should be rejection of Corrupt Capitalism and removal of corporate corruption of the government by the rich and powerful corporate owners' influence, with a Constitution checking government powers and corruption of governmental officials, democracy is the product. Today, as Michael Moore says, we live in a corporate plutocracy, or what I have described as corporate feudalism .

Thursday October 29, 2009, 9:22 am
Sherbet... lets hope we get "TREATED" to a great health system and not "TRICKED" into a bad one....

Thursday October 29, 2009, 9:29 am
Though I don't think of the pictures impact as earth shattering, it does give aid and comfort to our adversaries as not so subtly evidenced by the embrace you are receiving. They are most appreciative and supportive of your effort and each in turn without exception has in their way joined in a right wing chorus...saying, thank you David, we love it. For once, I think they are sincere.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 9:56 am
First, thank you for the apology, David B. That means volumes.

To everyone else, as an African American who heard first hand stories of slavery, Jim Crow and has lived through the civil rights era and experienced racism my ENTIRE life of 59 years, as well as having studied the historical background of racism, violence, bigotry, homophobia, violence, ignorance and the causes of hatred in the USA (ills of our society), this image of a nonviolent president faced with the WORST mess of probably of any US president deeply concerns me and is a personal affront.

This image of Obama in no way is tied with anyone's SCARY health care story in this country. Obama endorses the public option, preferably single payer as he initially stated. Being a centrist, he knows that is nearly impossible, given the climate of trying to get the public option. So be it.

Want to hear about a scary story?

How about working for a MAJOR corporation in this great country while having the BEST health care you and your company can provide, only to go to the doctor and be treated by a racist doctor who makes you wait while you are bowled over sick as he treats a white with a cold BEFORE you, who arrived AFTER you WITHOUT an appointment? How about being over-medicated because some white doctors are under the illusion that blacks have a stronger system and require 1.5 to 2 times the dosage of medicine than whites...without checking that you are sensitive to medication? In the (United?) States of America, whites have a 75% chance of a marrow transplant if they have health care. Blacks have a 25% chance under the same circumstances. This is out of 7 million registered patients.

These are mild stories that can happen to anyone. I know, I'm imagining these things...just like racism is a figment of my imagination. The point is this: I know and millions of Americans know that people of color receive inferior medical treatment (and other types of treatment) in this country. So, here we have a block of Americans who don't want health care reform because they fear it will be given to people of color and people on welfare. I won't go into that discussion because it is nothing but racism and ignorance. Besides, I believe health care reform WITH the public option will be put into law.

Health care reform is but one step for almost all Americans. EQUAL treatment under health care reform needs to come next. The image in this thread is deceptive and gives the wrong impression and feeds into the right wing agenda. As Barbara said so well, people from outside the US cannot possibly know how racism and hatred has permeated every aspect of this country and what we progressives are dealing with. A president fighting for the rights of EVERY American and in a real danger of being assassinated would be a tragedy for this country...including those who fight Obama's platform. It's called "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."

All of us here fight and are intolerant to most abuse of humans...I think. An example of the ills of our society and abuses in the USA is much like a wife and the children who leave the house every day smiling and going out into the world. When the wife ends up half dead from beatings, and the children report daily horrors they experienced at the hands of their father, authorities and neighbors are SHOCKED that they had no idea this was going on under their noses. That is what life is like for many in America who endure the horrors in this country. They barely exist from day to day and think this is the way things should be. So, when our friends from other nations get involved with the affairs of the USA, you must address the ills that permeate our society when addressing the issues that plague us. A complex, dastardly prospect, indeed.

America has a large block of Americans who have lived like 3rd world citizens since the inception of this nation. As the nation has grown, the disenfranchised have grown in numbers. Through advertising, propaganda and psychological indoctrination, the world sees a wealthy nation of primarily prosperous people. This is a LIE! When you consider the scandalous stories being uncovered every single day of CIA corruption, wasteful government spending, billions going to other countries in aid that is squandered, public officials getting kickbacks while their constituents continue to suffer and they vote against health care reform, presidents who get elected through election fraud and only through approval of an elite organization, it tells you this nation has been LYING to the people and the world. Within this framework, we progressives struggle to free this nation from the greed and sickness that has dropped us to our knees.

From the day Obama became president, the right wing went to work attacking him like no other president in our history. For every good deed he does -- and he has done much to save money and make government more efficient -- he is attacked for what he hasn't yet done. Images like this of Bush -- the absolute WORST president EVER -- did not come out until late in his term when we saw how corrupt he was and the mess he put us in. But to portray Obama as evil from day one is, well...EVIL. This image is DANGEROUS, inappropriate to the thread and feeds into the lies and propaganda.

TRICK: Play into the lies and propaganda of the right wing and corrupt democrats. We need a thorough housecleaning.

TREATMENT: Use Katrina as the model of the disenfranchised in this country. It spreads farther than health care, deep into housing, food, jobs and the fabric of our entire society. A fabric that is deeply woven and rooted in corruption and the ills of our society from day one when Plymouth Rock landed on the heads of Native Americans and African slaves who built this country with blood, sweat and tears with no compensation, and Hispanics who now bear the brunt of the racism and ostracism of a sick nation. That this nation has succeeded to this point is a testament to the 1% greed and corruption of the controlling elite and using humans as resources to build their fortunes. This is the sickness that must be addressed. Health care reform is a mere band-aid to the ills that plague our entire society. If the underlying ills of this nation are not addressed soon, the corruption will continue to evolve around the progress we do make.

HUMOR: Everything is funny until it affects YOU.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 10:22 am
Marion "So, here we have a block of Americans who don't want health care reform because they fear it will be given to people of color and people on welfare"....Im sorry I agree with everything else you posted but this one...I dont want the public option but its sure as heck not for the reason you posted above.

NOW I am not saying there are some white supremist and KKK members who do feel that way but as someone who is considered white by our racial views - I dont feel that way.

My ex boyfriend went to MS to help out after Katrina, he is a state trooper, and there was a white lady in her car, the car was on fire, fire and smoke coming from under the hood, she had been in a vehicle accident...when my ex reached down to help pull her out of her car - she looked up and say the color of his hand & withdrew her hand & waited in her burning car for, now get this, a black cop to come get her out...This lady was willing to blow up in her car to wait for a black cop...thankfully there was one there and was able to get her out. Yes racism is alive in this country, I have been a victim of it several times...I have stories after stories after stories I could tell as well....Its ALL WRONG, that is my point, ITS ALL WRONG!!!

"That this nation has succeeded to this point is a testament to the 1% greed and corruption of the controlling elite and using humans as resources to build their fortunes. This is the sickness that must be addressed. Health care reform is a mere band-aid to the ills that plague our entire society. If the underlying ills of this nation are not addressed soon, the corruption will continue to evolve around the progress we do make"...Marion I agree with you on this one, I think that is something regardless of what side your on we can all agree on!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 11:13 am
It is just possible some of us don't trust this government option. It is also possible that some of us have no insurance at all because it unaffordable, and we have children who have no insurance. Some of us may not qualify for any assistance and yet pay our share in to the system. Everything is not black and white (I don't mean that racially). The system is certainly screwed and I just don't see government intervention in the form of their plan as being helpful. Regulation and caps, yes. Make it more affordable by other means, yes. But a government run option...I don't think so. I am quite sure I will wind up paying in to that and not having it available to me. If I stay with no insurance, I will get a penalty. If I could afford insurance, I would have it. I think it will hurt people in the long run and cause more loss.

That's my scary story...no insurance at all.

I would hardly consider myself a radical anything. I honestly care about the people and the world around me. I just have different notions on achieving a better world for us all.



"HUMOR: Everything is funny until it affects YOU" - Marion

That is precisely what I have been trying to point out.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 11:16 am
Marion You exactly brought a tear to my eye. The block will not over ride the many. Wheather it be health care/enviroment/respect/teaching by exsample/egual rights/etc The block/right wing/nuts/racist/Republians/those who live in hate/who enjoy it are the few and these people make the most noise and have nothing to say but by golly can start a war just on words alone and have nothing but fear Take President Obama a man who honest/respectful/strong/doing what he can for the American people. And he takes the slap in the face without yelling/getting off topic/rolling up his sleeves. Why? When you are being honest/doing your best you have nothing to fear.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 11:20 am
"she looked up and say the color of his hand & withdrew her hand & waited in her burning car for, now get this, a black cop to come get her out...This lady was willing to blow up in her car to wait for a black cop...thankfully there was one there and was able to get her out. Yes racism is alive in this country,"

Yes Ch, it is. We can only guess what experiences this woman had that would make her refuse help from that white hand. That you would make of this a picture of her as Racist is almost funny, though she may indeed be be a racist, this is not the message I get from the story.

Perhaps if you have not already, you should see and contemplate the film "Crash".

Thursday October 29, 2009, 11:41 am
Robert I have seen the movie "Crash"...it was a great movie. I have stories from both black and white cops that I know and my hubby works with - I mean the names they are called - especially a really good friend of ours who is black american and the comments he hears coming from other black americans is beyond me...I just dont get it.

Robert I have been subject to much racism due to dating outside of my race...trust me it wasnt nice. The names called by black women when they see a white woman with a black man...i got cornered in a bathroom by 2 black women who were 3 times bigger then me, my boyfriend at the time had to come into the ladies room and rescue me...walking down the streets of New Orleans I got spit at - I can go on and on...so yes racism is alive and well from all sides of the color spectrum.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 12:27 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

Thursday October 29, 2009, 12:38 pm
Ch...As a female driver I would not allow a man (or a woman, for that matter) to help me if I'm stranded on the road. I would wait for service from my insurance, a call to family or the highway patrol. Paranoid? Yes. Anything against men? No. Reason for fear? Yes, the reality that women are robbed, raped and killed on roads while accepting help is the state of where our nation has come to.

With whites shooting blacks during Katrina, this woman had reason to be careful who helped her.

Until you walk in another man's shoes...

Thursday October 29, 2009, 12:49 pm
Ok your article is "whites shooting blacks"... my ex was a STATE TROOPER - in uniform - the lady was not stranded on the road, she was not alone. The other car she had hit was there with a family in it...there were 4 other UNIFORMED Cops - You can call it what it is and make excuses. I just thought it was sad she didnt want help from a uniformed cop when her car was on fire and could blow up at any minute....she not only put her life in danger she put that cops life in danger - who is now married with children, thankfully.

Yes Marion - walk a mile in another (wo)man's shoes and see how you like it. Being white isnt great all the time either when people are against us b/c of the color of our skin. I am not even full white yet that is how society see's me. Has it gotten me places - no - has it gotten me out of tickets - no - has it gotten me followed, spit on, verbally abused, YES by people of black american race b/c they couldnt stand to see a white woman with a black man....i have tons of stories on that one. Even comments made to children of inter racial couples I know...sad oh so sad it is.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:13 pm
It was fascinating to me to watch when Beck called Obama a racist to see the conversation devolve into a defense of free speech by Becks champions who argued Its right to be said. Now we look at this picture and again its right to exist is for some an issue. The issue should be why is it being said? I mean aside from just the desire to attract attention with controversy...what message is the picture or the word trying to send and why? That is what I find important. Exposing its goal.

Why is Obama being portrayed this way? Who stands to gain from this message? Who are they trying to scare or offend or outrage or all of the above. Some of it is obvious. Much poison can be spread with parody as its cover. Look at Beck. So a cartoon is a powerful thing, and we can't stop it, and must resist even wanting to, though sometimes its hard when its motivation and goal is so heinous so insidious and contrary to what is true as we see it and hurtful to those who need help. So its best we understand its aim and point out to any who don't already know, that this cartoon was never meant to be funny but to sell a perspective. Its ugly but its all they have to fight with as they say I care but just so long as it doesn't involve really doing anything like depriving our buddies from taking 30% right off the top of the total of health care costs. Who gets that much? Insurance companies do...but that right Obama is the Vampire. Its right there in the Cartoon!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:17 pm
How is this picture racist? I dont think its ok for anyone to call anyone a racist YET it seems those on the LEFT love to call others racist b/c they may not agree with Obama...I think the word stinks and wish it never has to be said again but I live in the real world and racism has been alive and will stay alive through the end of mankind. I

mean we even have some who try and change what Jesus looks like to fit their ethnic backgrounds....

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:33 pm
Ch
This guy makes the usual, scare tactic argument but fails to mention to the supposed victims in his scenario that they already have much to loose and fear within the present system if they loose their jobs or get sick or didn't dot an eye when and if they get sick. The straw men are every where in his statement and he of course avoids anything that does not make his case as he tries to make us think that to help we must loose something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:45 pm
CH
"How is this picture racist?"
Who are you talking to and in reference to what? Did I loose you somewhere? Try to be specific, or is it your goal to be vague? Are you just asking a question out of the blue so you can answer it yourself, or do you claim i said the picture was racist? If so show me the quote where I say it.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:47 pm
No, the word doesn't stink, the concept is what stinks. Who else believes that racism will be with us 'through the end of mankind'? Obviously, the ones that wish to accept it. Thank God there are those that don't. They will be the ones that will stamp it out by continuing to expose the ones that 'accept' racism, such as CH HARDY. Your acceptance of racism only furthers it.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:51 pm
"some who try and change what Jesus looks like to fit their ethnic backgrounds"

Do you think we really know what Jesus looked like? Can you show me a picture(of course not) or even a painting done while he was alive? Nope. Its all just what one wants him to look like. We all do it. Always have.
Careful now. Better do the research first. Fair warning.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 1:53 pm
Yea, Jesus was a Black Man living in North Africa or who knows he was Oriental in China, but not real today is peace. Fighting of who knows god or who's god is the true god is like fatherless children looking for their parents. There is a deep need to feel superior to others linked to religious wars or conflicts. My father is more than your father's ... Very sad and primitive.

The history of cultures and civilizations is replete with examples of power elites controlling other people in governments or religions with statements of "we are blessed by god" ,and therefore, superior to those who are not blessed is implied or stated.

Inferiority feelings develop superiority themes to compensate and feel in control. This is genetically observable in every species. Territoriality, sex, dominance, competition, sleep, hunger, and other rooster behaviors are also human behaviors... God is the alpha male, top dog, first to copulate, first pick of the food, and chases away lesser gods.. Just use DOG instead of GOD if you don't understand...

When racists don't like someone of color or culturally different, as we saw with the French with the bushies, they characterize them, dehumanize them, and demonize them, so they can justify destroying the enemy. Obama's image in the cartoon is such a case for right wing conservatives that don't like having a black man in power over them.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 2:04 pm
Marshal - can I add that what others have done to me has never seemed a good excuse or example to follow suit in my treatment of another. There are racists and fools within every race and within every race those who ask us in word and action to rise above it. Be the change. It is so tiring to see people pointing at others to excuse their own feelings, attitudes, actions and ignorance. What others do is no justification for anything unless one is a sheep whose only view is another's hind end.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 2:04 pm
Robert, I don't think that either the word 'research', nor the concept, is in Hardys' grasp.
Trying to debate someone as such is an exercise in futility.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 2:26 pm
BMutiny... ~Much love & respect to you...~

David if you wanted to have people stay on the topic of the story you posted than maybe the picture or cartoon you chose to go with the story should have been "on topic". You are the one who created the topic at hand by your choice of derogatory, hatemongering, off-topic photo.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 2:29 pm
Health Care

Thursday October 29, 2009, 2:39 pm
Since David can't understand what the obscene picture does to Americans that want this President to succede, and how it empowers the @** #%^&s that don't, and since Care 2, so far, hasn't removed the offensive image, I don't intend to promote this thread by leaving anymore comments.
You folks that approve of that image of President Obama, I'll leave you with the immortal words of Bugs, 'what a bunch of embezzles and ultramoroons.

I knew I shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 3:22 pm
"THEREFORE, this "cartoon" which INCITES VIOLENCE"...

When I first saw this cartoon, my first thought was to immediately kill the cartoonist, blow up Lady Liberty, run all liberal voters into the sea and get Obama a new set of teeth?

My second thought was to see it as quite funny and I had a great laugh...

Get real and get a life!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 3:35 pm
TO Robert and MJM - I do not accept racism, never once did anything I say points to that - I wish it would go away but no matter how hard we try to fight against it - it will always be in someone's heart - you can change them on the outside but never on the inside unless they really want to change, such as the two of you. You will never change from being who you are and no one would ever ask you to, I know I wouldnt b/c I just love it when the two resort to putting me down at every chance you get. Showing true colors is what the two of you do best.

I go by what I read in the Bible I own that gives the description of Jesus - if you dont like that oh well...

Robert I will say this - I mis read your post and thought it was saying the picture above was racist - which is why I asked the question I did.

MJM - oh dont go just b/c your not getting your way - please stay - NOT

Thursday October 29, 2009, 3:40 pm
Maybe a third thought would have tuned you into the reality of the political and racist climate in America, when our first ever black President has drawn 400 times more death threats than any previously.
But by all means, Dave...if it gives you a few yucks and you don't mind crawling into bed with the s*&^% of the earth, why let a sense of decency stand in your way.
Laugh it up!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 3:44 pm
Like a fly to the light - they just can't stay away even when they say there done - have to come back for the last word.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 4:03 pm
David, like 'moths to a flame', that disgusting image is attracting the kind of humanity I thought would make you sick. Are these the kind of people that you really want to be associated with?

Thursday October 29, 2009, 4:07 pm
My dearest predominently pathetic preposterous purveyors of problems...

Provocative, pathetic, pensive people..I presume that a pre-emptive prosecution (phlagging)is proposed?...Why?

Putrid personality problems are preventable and personally I propose phor your protection a preponderously ,predominantly, prepoustrously large prick of humour phor all so aphlicted!...

Time wounds all heels but humour heels all wounds?

Life is short, let's make phun of it?...THE CARTOON IS A JOKE! :-))))))))))?

Thursday October 29, 2009, 5:45 pm
David - Loved it!

Thursday October 29, 2009, 6:20 pm
Just to pick one line from this little perfect storm you have whipped up for our delectation on the auspicious day I note that Mutiny feels that..."If you look it up, the depiction of BLOOD has a powerful effect on Human physiology."

I would suggest that might be a good line to take with the kids that call round your house with that other American abomination "trick or Treat". At least in Scotland we call it guising and the children have to do a turn to earn their peanuts or toffee apples (sorry not very sensitive of me...with all this nut allergy and any-sugar campaign...should that read ...wholemeal snack bar that tastes like MDF and a cup of extra filtered mountain water from a re-usable paper container)

I see someone tried to suggest that America had a sense of humour....I am waiting...still waiting....

The Australians have always been gloriously irreverent toward all our gilded ideals...after all they know us as pommies and we have borne the brunt of their scathing humour ever since the convict ships left blighty shores...Oh yes we can give it back too.

So what I have from this perfect storm is the fact that a country that brought us Guantanamo Concentration Camp...Still open for buisness by the way...and has several thousand of its troops stationed in countries where they are not welcome and may even be abusing the locals objects when some one pokes a little fun at them.

We in Scotland call this a gross failure of the humour system and normally it is terminal unless treated with a light touch of "lightening up fluid"(AKA Whyskey). I expect to be flagged for the first time ever here on care2 if anyone cares to do that...but my intention is not to get involved in the nitty gritty of this debate but to try and see it for what is was...a joke or irony...sorry America doesn't do irony does it. If people took offence at the Australian way of looking at things...well tough cobber...stroll on.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 7:54 pm
What's funny? We're asked to have a sense of humor, but this cartoon is not meant to be humorous; it is meant as an attack, and it's not even original:

http://www.christophert.ca/blog/2006/08/

Saying it is funny is kind of a lie, unless one is predisposed to dislike, or hate, Obama. If you laughed at the pic, you've got problems, because it isn't meant to be funny. Hey, the flag is upside down! Get it? Ha ha! And the socialism quote: so FUNNY! It's a joke! The Iron Lady sure knew how to crack off one liners, hence the nickname.

Y'all get jokes like Homer Simpson, and understand editorial cartoons like... well, Homer Simpson.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 8:13 pm
B Mutiny I love you too,but i'm British and not Australian..though I suppose the same outsider logic applies..I accept there are cultural nu ances and battles that I can only read about and can only experience second hand..but at the same time there are a number of Americans who have made strong criticism of Obama from the left..The cartoon in question could be a representation of left wing or right wing feelings towards Obama..though upon reflection,within the current climate it is far more likely that it would come from the personality disorders on the right.
If it is the case that non US participants on this site miss out on some of the depth in perspective that can only come from lived experience of a society,it is also equally true that non-American's can bring a lot to the table in terms of insites on US culture..and all cultures benefit from outsiders perspectives..otherwise you might not know how crap your health system really is..i'm teasing there by the way (it's an English trait,to be very fascitious..that doesn't always translate in other countries).
That said,we have to look at the intentions David had when posting it and I belive that based on the guy's track record,that the intentions were good..I could write a book on the significance of symbols,signs and signifiers..and there are many angles that one could take re the cartoon..but in a world of ignorance,greed,sell outs and hatred,we progressives can't afford to fight amongst ourselves..(though we have to debate of course).
Yep honourable people have disagreed..lets move on..No one has to be totally right..hell i've got stuff wrong on this site,made the wrong call etc..but I know i'm on the side of the angels..as is B as is David.
The right love to watch the lefties argue..don't give them the pleasure.
If sentient people of the world can't connect,then we are well fu++ed..but we can and usually do.

Thursday October 29, 2009, 8:16 pm

Irony... is some Scot being able to make me own Guantanamo when I campaigned so hard to defeat the little bastard only to have the highest court in the land hand it to him after he lost the election in a country that talks about other peoples rigged elections. Irony. Tell me about it. Personally I don't give a crap about the bloody toon or your high opinion of the Aussie sense of humor, and flaggings not my thing. The toons a ripple in the pond and should not have gotten this much attention. Odd it came from a friend though. I continue to think that curious but whatever... It has found an adoring audience and David may have found his niche. Can we expect Obama in a mustache sometime soon, or with a bone through his nose... they love that. Always glad to hear from WE in Scotland.

Friday October 30, 2009, 9:35 am
http://www.alfranken.com/content/splash_video_20091021

Friday October 30, 2009, 4:44 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/30/opinion/30krugman.html?em

Saturday October 31, 2009, 1:23 am
Do you remember when there were SEXIST jokes? Dumb blondes, mother-in-law jokes, "women driver" jokes -- I am old enough to remember the so-called "humor" of the 1940's and 1950's. Yeah, those were "just jokes". Harmless. Well, THE TARGETTED WOMEN DIDN'T THINK SO. Remember the saying, "Feminists Have No Sense of Humor"?

Remember FAG JOKES? Do you tell them? in private maybe? Well, THEY WEREN'T FUNNY FOR THE "FAGS" THAT WERE LISTENING IN SILENCE.

Remember UNfunny "ethnic" jokes and "Negro" jokes about, for example, little Negro children being "eaten by crocodiles"? Oh big yucks, har har. You see some of these kinds of artifacts in MUSEUMS these days.

David's "Intentions" were good, I'm sure. But I think HE GOT BAMBOOZLED BY THE FAR RIGHT, into SPREADING THEIR PROPAGANDA FOR THEM. Not on PURPOSE. But it is STILL THERE IN FACT.
Right-wing Hate-Kill propaganda is NOT FUNNY; anymore than "jokes" about LYNCHINGS are "funny" ANY MORE. Or jokes about "incompetent women drivers" that used to be SO COMMON.

If you don't believe that there are such things as SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES in such cartoon propaganda, I refer you to a book by Vance Packard, "The Hidden Persuaders". That is about how ADVERTISERS use "hidden" messages to "persuade". These ideas were EASILY ADAPTED to "hidden" messages in POLITICAL contexts.

What happens to vampires in the old movies? The enraged peasants with their flaming torches and pitchforks, corner the hapless vampire and drive a stake thru its heart. Right?
This is a SUBLIMINAL REFERENCE to "this should be done to President Obama". This is a quite direct exploitation of the supposed "angry mobs" of the teabaggers and those that interrupted Town Meetings. [Altho there weren't REALLY "angry mobs" of teabaggers; there were FAR MORE demonstrating FOR Health Care. But the MEDIA played it up as if there were "angry mobs" of "ordinary folks". Padding the figures considerably. Real polls show otherwise.]

This is NOT a comment that the Left might make about a Presidential policy. One of my FAVORITE cartoonists, the author of "Doonesbury", has done PLENTY of cartoons cricizing the President; most recently, his winning of the Nobel Peace Prize. As a Leftie, I see a lot to criticize about President Obama; and I see plenty of genuinely funny and witty cartoons from the Left, about him.

BUT I DO NOT WISH FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA'S DEATH; and I DO NOT CONSIDER YUK YUK HAR HAR FUNNY, A CARTOON INDIRECTLY CALLING FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA'S DEATH.
I do not consider funny a cartoon calling for a woman's death -- there are such "jokes" around; or a "fag's" murder -- there are such "jokes" around also. I do not consider funny any joke or cartoon calling for the death of anyone of any ethnic group, race, or religious group. I would not consider a cartoon calling for Sarah Palin's death, "funny", at all. Or Bush's. Jail, yes. Assassination, no.

I really despair that Brits and Australians don't SEE this. But you can't just go by your OWN experiences. You have to TRY and see what WE IN THE U.S. SEE. I am NOT exaggerating. I could refer you to other threads and News Items on this subject...... There is really nothing COMPARABLE in British or Australian politics. You naturally will tend to draw comparisons with your OWN right-wing parties and politics. I can just shake my head.... from everything I know about British and Australian politics, THIS SITUATION IN THE U.S. IS UNIQUE.

To the extent that the U.S. is a "Power" and potentially could control -- or destroy -- the World, these fanatically-religiously-inspired right-wingers BACKED BY THE ENDLESS CASH FLOW OF THE CORPORATIONS are DETERMINED to win -- even if "winning" means "bringing about literally Armageddon"......

Saturday October 31, 2009, 1:37 am
Panda: Back when I was in Lefty groups in the '60's and '70's, there were LOTS OF LEFTIES WHO WERE SEXISTS; anti-woman and anti-gay. IT WAS NECESSARY TO ALWAYS CALL THEM ON IT. If this was "Lefties fighting among themselves", then SO BE IT. We couldn't let someone GET AWAY WITH SCHEISS LIKE THAT, JUST BECAUSE THEY CALLED THEMSELVES "LEFTISTS". It would take away all meaning from that term, to ALLOW such a thing to pass! WHO CARES what the Right thinks?

In just the same way, a LEFTY FALLING FOR RIGHTIST PROPAGANDA, which is what I say THIS is an example of -- CANNOT AND MUST NOT BE ALLOWED A "FREE PASS". There would be TOTAL CONFUSION between Left and Right, if this were allowed to pass un-commented on! And this is not the FIRST time this has happened; nor will it be the LAST. I am not talking here just about David. OTHER Care2 members have gotten confused by the Right Wing, bamboozled into circulating their Petitions when they didn't read them very carefully, etc. WE MUST ALWAYS, ALWAYS BE VIGILANT FOR THAT SORT OF THING. And ALWAYS, ALWAYS MAKE A FUSS; each and every single time we catch it!

Saturday October 31, 2009, 2:34 am
Oh god, don't let me be misunderstood!...Remember when we were all young?...Not so warped and bitter?...Able to see fun where fun exists and not be so bloody critical of each other?...Were you ever young dear reader?

Saturday October 31, 2009, 2:54 am
The phrase 'young and stupid' comes to mind. I suppose we all were at some point. Problem is, some never grow out of it.?

Saturday October 31, 2009, 3:07 am
Old and stupid comes to mind...Youth and innocence is a bad thing?...

Gay bashing lefties, fags murders?...Get real folks!...Live the life we have today, make the best of it, there is NO tomorrow, there is NO tomorrow here today!

Saturday October 31, 2009, 6:34 am
You cannot currently send a star to BMutiny because you have done so within the last week.

Saturday October 31, 2009, 7:16 am
Robert...As usual, Krugman hits it out of the ball park...

"For this is the moment of truth. The political environment is as favorable for reform as it’s likely to get. The legislation on the table isn’t perfect, but it’s as good as anyone could reasonably have expected. History is about to be made — and everyone has to decide which side they’re on."

Saturday October 31, 2009, 2:59 pm
'Youth and innocence is a bad thing?'

When innocence is a mask for ignorance?? Yeah Dave, that's BAD?

Sunday November 1, 2009, 1:05 am
Please don't think that Obama's skin colour makes him progressive. He does the same as white presidents did before him: enacts the agenda of the megarich, to the detriment of the people of the world.

Obama is a capitalist, imperialist president, who is not much different to the other capitalist, imperialist presidents of the USA. Under Obama's orders, the murderous, plundering U.S. foreign policy continues as usual:

CIA kidnapping and torture, covert support for military coups (e.g. in Honduras), support for corrupt, brutal and oppressive regimes (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Israel), the inhumane blockade of Cuba, the military bases in dozens of countries to prop up puppet governments for U.S. corporate exploitation of Third World peoples (e.g. in Colombia and Peru), the support for Colombian paramilitary death squads (in Colombia and now infiltrating into Venezuela and Honduras and killing people there), etc....

Plus, of course, Obama continues the U.S. military and U.S. mercenary terrorism against the people of Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, which kills and maims thousands of people fighting against the occupations; kills and maims thousands of civilians (making more and more people join the people fighting against the occupations); and props up corrupt, brutal and oppressive regimes in those countries; all for control of oil and oil transit routes, plus corporate exploitation of local workers, plus to have military bases from which the USA can dominate and threaten Iran, Russia, and the oil-rich states of Central Asia.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 1:19 am
I don't have a whole lot to say....and I guess everything's somewhat dying down..., but I would be VERY thankful if this whole conversation doesn't take a nasty turn and end up being about abortion or gay marriage.

It just seems like when you mix Lady Liberty & Obama all in one picture someone ends with THOSE conversations!

Let's, as human beings - no matter WHAT country we live in, be a little thankful that we're here, are free to express whatever opinions we have, and discuss them with mutual respect. Remember, David didn't write this article OR draw this picture, please.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 10:31 am
"Please don't think that Obama's skin color makes him progressive. "

Rather than make this an issue of Black and White as you attempt to do here, may I suggest that the premise, or rather the introduction for your litany is condensation and a straw man. Though his election speaks volumes about the mindset of this nation, we who reason, do not use your perspective to measure our position, but instead consider where we just came from with Bush and where we might be with McPalin. So forgive us or not, for our failure to be perfect, or even close... Our many parts have done much, both good and bad on the world. Many of us here, and in that world recognize progress when we see it, and greet hard won, and far from ideal, with appreciation.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 11:31 am
Is this entire thread to be devoted to racism (I am not racist at all, we are all pink inside), Colour does not count. Humour is quite another topic...Why does America have no sense of humour (a misplaced generalisation?) but from many of your comments I have no option but to assume that my assumption is correct?...

I received one email on this topic suggesting that "that cartoon" would surely incite someone to kill Obama...Amazing?...I thought so...

For those who do not know me well I think that Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread for both America and the world...He has had my full support throughout his campaign and his presdency...

Get the picture?

Oh, and just in passing...This thread is all about healthcare?...Doesn't anybody care about healthcare?

Sunday November 1, 2009, 3:42 pm
Oh god, don't let me be misunderstood!...

Just a soul who's intentions are good?

Innocents, if it existed, was lost when intention met result, and having met it, made alibi of confusion between cruelty and jest.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 4:18 pm
Thankful Dove...of course David didn't draw this picture (as far as we know), but he sure as heck posted it! We just expect better from Mr Buchan.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 8:06 pm
While you and I agree on pretty much NOTHING David....I liked the pic. I think it is dead on.

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:19 am
Thank you NE L
Perhaps if you keep repeating how much you like it, David will finally get its message.

Monday November 2, 2009, 6:29 pm
You are quite welcome Robert.

Monday November 2, 2009, 7:41 pm
I think it is bootiful too NE L ..... Absoroutly wannerfullll !!!!!

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:14 pm
That reads like a combination of Scooby Doo and Lawrence Welk.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:19 pm
No, Robert. It's just one 'o them idgit ferriners. You know, an ultramoroon.

Monday November 2, 2009, 9:26 pm
Oh my, this is very interesting. A posting about cartoons. No, racism. No, horrible, hate-mongering right-wingers. Or maybe horrible hate-mongering left-wingers. No, wait, did someone mention health-care? Oh, who cares, it's all just very entertaining.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 3:19 am
I don't find the photo offensive, or racist, JUST WRONG. I don't agree with the sentiment expressed with the photo. I think the problem with CAPITALISM is eventually you run out of other people's money. Socialists could technically still feed and clothe their people without currency.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 8:37 pm
House passed healthcare reform tonight! Sat. 7th of Nov. 09
220 to 215, 39 Dems voted No 1 Repub votes Yes.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 8:33 am
This is great news, Robert. Single Payer would be best, but we will have to settle for now. Next stop...getting it through the senate.