Friday October 30, 2009, 10:53 pm
OK, I watched the video and filled my data. Now I can't find the f***ing button to submit!
I'll be back latter, I must leave now

Saturday October 31, 2009, 1:29 am
From Jewish Voice For Peace:

"We at JVP are deeply angered by the Obama Administration, which is working in tandem with the Israeli government to de-legitimize the findings of the report. Rather than focusing on the many violations of law, emphasis is being placed on the alleged faulty methodology of the report and the objectivity of the reporters.

The US pressure seems to indicate that the Obama Administration’s approach to Israel and Palestine does not differ significantly from previous administrations, in that it reflexively protects Israel’s interests, even in the face of violations of international law. Given President Obama’s stated goal to renew the peace process between Israel and Palestine, this position on Goldstone undermines the U.S.’s ability to be an honest broker in that process.

In addition, JVP is saddened by the response to the Goldstone Report by many American Jewish leaders. However Rabbi Brant Rosen, writing in the Chicago Tribune, said just before Yom Kippur,

“Rather than jointly consider Israel's acts in Gaza, carry out real cheshbon nefesh (moral accounting), and accept our communal responsibility, it has proven easier for many of us to employ communal defense mechanisms, and insist that in this particular case, there's no need for reflection.

Since the report's publication, the UN and commission chair Judge Richard Goldstone have been vilified and disparaged, by both the Israeli government and American Jewish leaders. There has been little consideration of the actual findings, or the fact that Israel refused to cooperate with the commission, or conduct its own investigation.

As a rabbi, this grieves me deeply. For, painful as it is for us to admit, Israel's behavior in Gaza has consistently betrayed our shared Jewish ethical legacy.

This was true before the war, when the Israeli blockade denied Palestinians basic necessities; it was true during the war, when Israel responded with disproportionate force to Hamas rockets; and it has been true since the war.” (3)

JVP strongly urges that the Goldstone Report findings be taken with all the serious consideration it merits, and that its recommendations be implemented. "

Saturday October 31, 2009, 1:31 am
Thank you for signing the petition in support of the Goldstone Report. We will use the growing number of signatures for press releases and actions to demonstrate the enormous support for accountability to the civilian victims during the Gaza attack and respect for the rule of law.

Time is short, and we have two more critical actions we need you to take--now.

1) The UN’s General Assembly will debate the Goldstone Report on Wedesday, November 4th, and our political opponents are already organizing heavily to urge its rejection. We need you to call or email your country's UN Ambassador and tell them to endorse the report. The report calls for both Hamas and Israel to conduct thorough, indepedent, and credible investigations or face the the International Criminal Court . This is a crucial mechanism for ensuring that all parties are held accountable for war crimes against civilians.

Find you UN Ambassadors' contact information here: http://www.un.org/members/missions.shtml

Click here to let us know about your call to your UN Ambassador.

2) If you live in the United States, a new resolution in Congress calls on President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to bury the Goldstone Report. Don't let AIPAC's friends in Congress win. Click here to tell your Representative to vote "No" on H. Res. 867.

Thanks!

Cecilie Surasky and Sydney Levy

Saturday October 31, 2009, 5:47 am
Over ten months have passed since the attack on Gaza, and yet no independent and credible investigations have been launched by Israel or Hamas to bring those guilty of killing civilians to justice. That's why I support the Goldstone Report--because it demands accountability.

Israel and the US are trying to bury the report and ignore its recommendations. Won't you join me in support of the report?

If you are in the US, we need your voice more than ever, as Congress gets ready to pass a resolution calling on President Obama to do everything he can to bury the Goldstone Report. Join me in fighting this terrible resolution.


Thanks David, super important article here my friend. I went to the visit site and signed there at: www/supportgoldstone.org/

In peace & hoping to find answers,
~FreeSpirit~ aka ~Safiyyah~

Saturday October 31, 2009, 6:10 am
Signed - thanks, David !

Saturday October 31, 2009, 11:01 am
Thank you for supporting Richard Goldstone! Please take a moment to invite your friends to show their support too.

Great petition!
Thank you kindly, David!
noted.

Saturday October 31, 2009, 11:04 am
Thank you for supporting Richard Goldstone! Please take a moment to invite your friends to show their support too. Thank you David

Saturday October 31, 2009, 2:55 pm
I signed this as a human being, not as one of faith. This report must not be allowed to be demeaned, tampered with or destroyed. Even as a convert, I still see the wrong on both parties.
Peace is the only real solution and regazrdless of feelings, emotions, and/or anger, humanity must prevail.
Thanks once again David.

Saturday October 31, 2009, 6:29 pm
No way, brother David!

The puppet show of 4 people in 12 days completing "investigation" of a war of 22 days with thousands of participants?

Just to figure out that Muhammed Durah was killed by Palestinians rather than by Israelis took several years. So now you suggest again to curse Israel first and to discover truths later. Well, without me.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 1:55 am
A must.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 2:02 am
There needs to be accountable on both sides, and for those who have particiapted in these crimes.. must be brought before a court of law to face the music.. it is know good cursing one side without looking at both.. it takes two to invoke an argument... may they both find blessing and peace... remember we are all from the same tree.. we are just made up of many branches..

Sunday November 1, 2009, 6:37 am
Hamas already took action to investigate the possibility of Palestinians war crimes during that war

http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2009/107-2009.html

What about Israel whose prime minister vows to protect his people in uniform from any possible trials as war criminals while he knows very well that they committed criminal acts against humanity?

Ok we agree,as I mentioned before,that both parties show before the court and let the court proceed with a fair trial that will investigate also the motives behind the deeds and will certainly differentiate between the freedom fighters and the occupants.We accept the court ruling whatever it is and respect it. The war criminals shouldn't be given a chance to run away. If President Obama or the Congress is going to adopt a decision to bury the report,then we are going to think again about Obama's Cairo speech and the new administration in full . USA will then regrets missing the opportunity to show ,at least,that she is neutral in this respect and that she is standing at the same distance from both Palestinians and the Zionist state. IAPAC should not given a chance to spoil the the relations between America and both Arabic and Islamic world again.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 7:15 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html?_r=2#

October 20, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Rights Watchdog, Lost in the Mideast
By ROBERT L. BERNSTEIN

AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group’s critics. Human Rights Watch had as its original mission to pry open closed societies, advocate basic freedoms and support dissenters. But recently it has been issuing reports on the Israeli-Arab conflict that are helping those who wish to turn Israel into a pariah state.

At Human Rights Watch, we always recognized that open, democratic societies have faults and commit abuses. But we saw that they have the ability to correct them — through vigorous public debate, an adversarial press and many other mechanisms that encourage reform.

That is why we sought to draw a sharp line between the democratic and nondemocratic worlds, in an effort to create clarity in human rights. We wanted to prevent the Soviet Union and its followers from playing a moral equivalence game with the West and to encourage liberalization by drawing attention to dissidents like Andrei Sakharov, Natan Sharansky and those in the Soviet gulag — and the millions in China’s laogai, or labor camps.

When I stepped aside in 1998, Human Rights Watch was active in 70 countries, most of them closed societies. Now the organization, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies.

Nowhere is this more evident than in its work in the Middle East. The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region.

Israel, with a population of 7.4 million, is home to at least 80 human rights organizations, a vibrant free press, a democratically elected government, a judiciary that frequently rules against the government, a politically active academia, multiple political parties and, judging by the amount of news coverage, probably more journalists per capita than any other country in the world — many of whom are there expressly to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Meanwhile, the Arab and Iranian regimes rule over some 350 million people, and most remain brutal, closed and autocratic, permitting little or no internal dissent. The plight of their citizens who would most benefit from the kind of attention a large and well-financed international human rights organization can provide is being ignored as Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division prepares report after report on Israel.

Human Rights Watch has lost critical perspective on a conflict in which Israel has been repeatedly attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations that go after Israeli citizens and use their own people as human shields. These groups are supported by the government of Iran, which has openly declared its intention not just to destroy Israel but to murder Jews everywhere. This incitement to genocide is a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Leaders of Human Rights Watch know that Hamas and Hezbollah chose to wage war from densely populated areas, deliberately transforming neighborhoods into battlefields. They know that more and better arms are flowing into both Gaza and Lebanon and are poised to strike again. And they know that this militancy continues to deprive Palestinians of any chance for the peaceful and productive life they deserve. Yet Israel, the repeated victim of aggression, faces the brunt of Human Rights Watch’s criticism.

The organization is expressly concerned mainly with how wars are fought, not with motivations. To be sure, even victims of aggression are bound by the laws of war and must do their utmost to minimize civilian casualties. Nevertheless, there is a difference between wrongs committed in self-defense and those perpetrated intentionally.

But how does Human Rights Watch know that these laws have been violated? In Gaza and elsewhere where there is no access to the battlefield or to the military and political leaders who make strategic decisions, it is extremely difficult to make definitive judgments about war crimes. Reporting often relies on witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers. Significantly, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and an expert on warfare, has said that the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”

Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can Human Rights Watch resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world. If it fails to do that, its credibility will be seriously undermined and its important role in the world significantly diminished.

Robert L. Bernstein, the former president and chief executive of Random House, was the chairman of Human Rights Watch from 1978 to 1998.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 9:45 am
David R, Whoever you R .There is a great difference between the Palestinian freedom fighters and the occupier IDF.The freedom fighters want to free their land and clean it from the Zionist occupation while the IDF wants to expand till the edge of the earth.For IDF it doesn't matter what kind of weapons are used to accopalish it's mission Napalm,white phosphore,buldozers....etc as long as he can prepare the stage for more settlements.No matter where bombs are thrown... on a UN school,an ambulance or else where.
Israel is still occupying a partof Lebanon namely Shebaa farms and libaneese have the right to free this occupied part of Lebanon.

When it comes to peace talks,Israel didn't accept the Arab league initiative based on " land for peace " a principle that was adopted by Madrid conference in 1991 and was applied during the peace talks between Egypt and Israel in Camp David.
Depending on the political,economic and military support of USA,Israel wants an endless negotiations process that enables it to change the demogrphic gacts and swallow more land.
NO WAY ISRAEL CAN CONTINUE THAT WAY FOR EVER.ISRAEL HAS A GOLDEN CHANCE NOW TO LIVE IN PEACE AND BE A PART OF THIS REGION OR HELP CREATE MORE HATERD AND ENCOURAGE VIOLENCE IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD,SOMETHING ISRAEL MAY REGRET ONE DAY.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 9:50 am
WC "Well, without me."

If only!!! What are you waiting for?? Don't worry... You won't be missed!

"this petition is supported by mostly those who usually defend terrorists of all kinds."

Then you should be signing the petition too, because you sure have been defending terrorists for a long time: the Israeli military and government who have terrorized the population of Gaza and taken so many innocent llives.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 10:08 am
Yes Brigit, WC was ,pitfuly,supporting all the terrorist acts of IDF and its government.The question is why isn't he supporting the Goldstone report which accuses Hamas also ? I invite WC to support it as long as he is against terrorists.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 12:24 pm
WC was previously flagged by me as having no real interest in care2 discussions but only of inciting comments to gratify a warped sense of belonging and hopefully will be removed asap...Thanks Brigitte and Abdessalam, your comments noted.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 1:03 pm
It is now the time for Israel to change her aggressive politics and make peace with the Palestinians. Israels violence must be stopped. This is the last chance for Israel to make peace and have a normal life. Missing this opportunity will have a negative imapact on Israel.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Sunday November 1, 2009, 3:20 pm
WC deserves to be flagged; you've don right, David B. Brigitte and Abdessalam, thanks for your input; your comments are well noted.

The central question is this. Who used overwhelming firepower in the Gaza war? Who used F-15 fighter-bomber jets, attack helicopters, and heavy armour, WC? Who used cluster bombs and white phosphorus? If you're honest, you'd have to admit it was Israel; as, Hamas possess none of these. In addition, Hamas is the legitimate government in Gaza; the people there overwhelmingly elected it.

Also, remember Israel's war of aggression (its second) against Lebanon back in 2006, in which over 1600 Lebanese civilians were killed. Hezbollah fighters killed over a hundred IDF Army soldiers; and, what did the IDF do in retaliation? Kill more civilians - such as over 100 in a UN shelter that they bombed. Hezbollah eventually drove the IDF Army back across the border to Israel - something Hamas lacks the strength to do.

It is Israel that is also blocking any humanitarian aid for the people of Gaza, not Hamas. It's a war crime to deliberately starve a civilian population and deprive it of water, fuel, and medicines. Thus, the Goldstone Report must not be buried by the Obama Administration, which had promised to be much more evenhanded than that of G. W. Bush.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 3:38 pm
Eileen, who told you that the force has to be proprotionate? You have Hamas terrorist entity bombing Israel for years with rockets, deliberately targeting civilians.

Israel is in her full power to use all necessary means to stop this crime. They warned civilians to get out, but they have to exterminate terrorists, they had no other choice. If Hamas didn't start the war, or even if Hamas built bomb-shelters for civilians, they would NOT be so many civilians casualties on the Palestinian site.

The fact is that Hamas WANTED Palestinian civilains to be killed, photographed and publicized through Media to set public opinion against democratical Israel fighting for its survival, a tiny country of 1/10,000 lands to her Arab neighbours.

Eileen, you "conveniently" forgot to mention that Hezbola terrorists were firing rockets next to the school. And no, Hezbola drove nobody - Israelis decided to rely on UN to secure peace by diplomatic means and pushed Hezbola behind Litani river, so they can't be called a winning party at that war.

Back to topic: You guys may play Hamas game and promote Goldstone report as a tool for Hamas PR, but without me.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 4:22 pm
The plain facts are, as with many noble causes, that this" investigation" was an absolute farce and has sunk to the level of a kangaroo court. This inquisition began with an agreed upon acceptable conclusion, within the "club" Arab League, Islamic countries coalition and others that pander these dictatorships for oil, by placing an investigator who already publicly concluded Israel guilty "before" the "investigation" even began. The only reason that Goldstone even agreed to this farce was because in a concession they agreed to investigate Hamas as well.

Judge Goldstone said in and interview with Swiss Le Temps newspaper on Friday before the UN Human Rights Council passed a resolution (without modifying the text) endorsing the Goldstone Report, clearing the way for discussion in the UN Security Council. "This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel . . . There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text."

In an interview with "The Forward" he went even further to discredit the basis of this "investigation" by saying If this was a court of law, there would have been nothing proven. I wouldn't consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 6:00 pm
Signed JVP support for Goldstone. In my opinion-- and I have stayed extensively in the US, 1-2x pa for the last decade-- you never get the real truth / full picture of world news. You are treated like mushrooms. At least in the UK we get to know what is happening around the world. (We get live reporting and no hushing-up. Not if the media have anything to do with it. They are a real scourge of government here.)It is obvious from some of the comments that people do not realise what actually happened. You only need to look at the casualty figures to work it out for yourself. Very few Israelis, no children. Almost 1000 Palestinians, OVER HALF OF THEM CHILDREN. Red Cross vehicles were deliberately targetted. So were United Nations compounds where women and children were taking refuge. Both the UN and the Red Cross are supposed to be respected even in war, and not targetted. There were no similar attacks by Palestinians. Also the Isralis used white phosphorous, which is banned by the Geneva Convention. They even used it on a children's hospital. The justification for all this was because there are spasmodic attacks on Israel by Hamas. This I do not condone, but remember, the Palestinians are occupied, and I am sure we might do similar things if we could, if we were being occupied by another power. Indeed, prior the the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, the Isralis were conducting their own guerilla warfare and bombings.Incidentally, most Israelis have shelters in their houses, ir if not then in their community. They can also evacuate if they wish. In Gaza, the most densely populated piece of land on earth, there is nowhere to hide.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 6:41 pm
Signed, sent on, and several dtdn members signed as well.. Thanks David..Some inportant insight shared here. Wild Cat do the math.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 7:05 pm
Susan, several points:
1. Children were much less than half of the victims. Besides, these children include victims killed while snatched by Hamas to serve as human shields and children old enough to fire arms. Also, Hamas reported nobody as victims of their "friendly" fire - and everyone knows that best armies have such casualties.

2. Ambulances were taken by Hamas to move fighters and rockets. A number of protests were submitted by Israel to whoever they could - for no avail.

3. White Phosphorus is a tool commonly used by all Armies for illumination. Such use was not banned by anyone.

4. Palestinians are Gaza are NOT occupied - Israel expelled all Israeli civilians from there and took out all the solders - for the sake of peace. No Israeli was left in Gaza. Calling it "occupation" - is stabbing that peace in the back.

5. Why is it Israeli fault, that Hamas never bothered to built shelters for Palestinian Arab civilians, while digging enought tunnels within Gaza to move fighters from one place to another?

6. Actually, there are Israeli girls killed by Palestinian rockets. Those rockets were shot deliberately to Israeli cities to target civilians. For 8 years, 12,000 rockets, poewrful enough to destroy a factory or a house. And again, all that - AFTER ISRAEL LEFT GAZA TO GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!

7. Israel is a tiny country, it has 1/10,000 of land of Arab countries, there is not much room to evacuate. Those Arab countries could evacuate Gaza civilians to stay there for the war.

Barbara, that's my math. And based on it, I surely am NOT signing.

Sunday November 1, 2009, 9:16 pm
WC: "The fact is that Hamas WANTED Palestinian civilians to be killed, photographed and publicized through Media to set public opinion against democratic Israel fighting for its survival, a tiny country of 1/10,000 lands to her Arab neighbours...".

Can you prove that "fact"?

"7. Israel is a tiny country, it has 1/10,000 of land of Arab countries, there is not much room to evacuate. Those Arab countries could evacuate Gaza civilians to stay there for the war."

Nonsense. Gaza is highly sealed from land, and Israel routinely violates its sea and air space. Even if war was announced, it would be impossible to evacuate 1,5 mill. people over 3 check points.

Monday November 2, 2009, 12:50 am
Thanks Jellica..."They warned civilians to get out' WC?...They had no-where to go...Israel closed the borders!

Monday November 2, 2009, 1:41 am
Facts are facts.Whether UN committee headed by Goldstone prepared this report in a short or long time is not the main point. Goldstone himself is a Jew and none can accuse him with the Zionist ready made accusation " anti semantic ". The fact are clear for every body but blinds.Every thing was live on TV around the world.
WC says that Gaza is not occupied.What a joke ! ! ! .Gaza if you are ignorant is a part of Palestine,its people are Palestinians . All Palestinians are freedom fighters and will continue to be so as long as Israel is not ready for peace and is still occupying their land ,holding their properties and building settlements on their stolen land.

All UN observers witnessed the Criminals( Israelis ) bombing UNRWA schools which were hosting the displaced women and children whose homes were bombed as well. Thee red cross people witnissed the Ambulances carrying wounded civilians bombed by the proud IDF.

All we need is to take the criminals to the court,whoever they are,and the court will decide who is to be sentenced to death or have a life time sentence or who is innocent and deserve to be freed. SO WHY ISRAEL AND HER SUPPORTERS , LIKE W.C. ARE SO SCARED . IT IS GOING TO BE AN INTERNATIONAL COURT. WHY ARE YOU AFRAID OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ? BECAUSE YOU KNOW PRETTY WELL THAT YOU ARE THE CRIMINALS. COME ON W.C. SEE THE FACTS BECAUSE ONLY BLINDS CAN"T SEE.

Monday November 2, 2009, 3:22 am
"t is now the time for Israel to change her aggressive politics and make peace with the Palestinians. Israels violence must be stopped. This is the last chance for Israel to make peace and have a normal life. Missing this opportunity will have a negative imapact on Israel.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian "
There is an Arab peace initiative that has been around for over three years.An initiative that while ending the occupation will put an end to the war status between Israel and Palestinians,Syrians and Lebanese.It will enable Israel to have normal relations not only with the Palestinian state,Syria and Lebanon but also with all Arab countries. A new era can start in this part of the world with all potentials in economic development and prosperity of all the people living there. Most important is that terrorists will not find an excuse for their criminal acts and violence may disappear from this part including Iraq,Afghanistan and Pakistan. Will the Israeli government be smart to accept this PEACE initiative ? WE ALL HOPE SO.

Monday November 2, 2009, 4:02 am
Um, one question, please? If you don't want to sign & don't support this petition, and you have all these comments against this article, then why are you here?

There are people here that really do CARE what happens in other countries to our children, innocent civilians & the use of chemicals that are banned.

We all have OPINIONS which are like Ass..... anyway, everyone has one, but yours, Wild C is geared towards hatred ~ sorry to say.

It's pretty obvious to me that your not on the same page as most of us are here, and that is to uncover the truth.

Thanks once again David, your article is without a doubt, highly important to ALL OF US, that have souls ~ and a conscience.

IN PEACE,
~ FreeSpirit ~

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:33 am
Jelica R, what more facts do you need when HAMAS DID NOT BUILD A SINGLE BOMB SHELTER FOR GAZA CIVILIANS WHILE PREPARING FOR THE WAR AND BUILDING BUNKERS AND TUNNELS FOR THEMSELVES?
Now they post all those gruesome picture which happened as a direct result of their actions.

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:41 am
Safi, I don't want to sign this petition because it is evil in nature. It protects terrorists and put a fight against terrorism by dempocarcies at a dangerous position. I won't let Arab majoity in UN quietly push its agenda.

Safi, Hamas is a terrorist organization of Islamic fanatics, merciless to Palestinian Arabs and Jews alike. I feel they are enemies of Humanity and don't like them. Just notice, that Palestinian Arab life in the West Bank is booming economically - because it is governed by moderates, not extremists. And the same Israel for both of them.

That's exactly my point of NOT SUPPORTING this report, hardly pushed on care2 members by Hamas apologists (4-7 posts in 2-3 days).

In Peace to you and to all peaceful people on Earth.
~ Free Spirit is good. ~

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:42 am
Signed. Thanks David.

Thank you for supporting Richard Goldstone! Please take a moment to invite your friends to show their support too.

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:50 am
Brother Diab, by which Diabolic logic is Gaza occupied by Israel if there are no Israelis left?

You want to say something about Israel closing borders to the entity with which there is a war? What do you say about your own Egypt, who sealed the border with Gaza? Say then that Gaza is occupied by Egyptians for exactly same token.

Abdi, the region of Palestine includes parts of Jordan, Egypti, Israel, Gazan and the West Bank. Don't claim it all for only Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank.

And what Diabolic excuse will you give for Hamas and Hezbolla "BRAVE FREEDOM FIGHTERS" firing rockets from the school yards and endangering all the students?

Monday November 2, 2009, 6:17 am
W.C. seems to be not only ignorant of the facts but also can't read English. I once suggested to write to him or her in Hebrew if it will help him/her understand but since W. C . is also ignorant in Hebrew, I don't see any way to approach his/her mind. Saying that some parts of Egypt belongs to Palestine is just an other joke. This saying may be also a step towards claiming that Egypt is a part of the promised land.Egypt could free its occupied land in Sinai militarily in the first place.Do you still Yum Kibor in 1973.Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel based on the main peace principle " Land for peace " thanks to the Egyptian armed forces and the courage of president Sadat.Egypt will not allow any Israeli soldier to touch it's land and Tel-Aviv knows that very well. If Israel has a smart and courageous Prime Minister and is really willing ,able and ready for peace it would have ended this a long time ago. But Israel is not willing or ready for peace.It is only ready to kill civilians,destroy home and bomb schools.
And W.C.using the word diabolic which includes a part of my family name doesn't irritate or anger me . You know why? Because you yourself is diabolic.

Monday November 2, 2009, 6:21 am
W.C. I am not your brother and will never be.Only smart and knowledgeable person are considered my friends and on Care 2 there are a lot of them.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:50 am
Wild Cat on "Monday November 2, 2009, 5:33 am
Jelica R, what more facts do you need when HAMAS DID NOT BUILD A SINGLE BOMB SHELTER FOR GAZA CIVILIANS WHILE PREPARING FOR THE WAR AND BUILDING BUNKERS AND TUNNELS FOR THEMSELVES?
Now they post all those gruesome picture which happened as a direct result of their actions."

Are you serious? Bunkers for 1,5 mill people on a total area of 360 square kilometers (139 sq mi), with highest point at 105 m (115 yards). Source: Wikipedia.

Terrain is mostly flat to rolling, sand- and dune-covered coastal plain.

Let's do some math: there are 10.714 persons living on 1 sq mile.

How many bunkers do you need for 1,5 mill people? Where are you going to put them, considering high population density and limited land access?

How many cement is required when building on a sand? To protect from bombing it must be high performance, reinforced concrete. Lots and lots of cement and steel.

And which cement will you use, knowing that strict internal and external control is imposed on 3 crossing points? Cement stopped at Erez 2 months ago?

You wrote: "Sunday November 1, 2009, 3:15 pm
Brother Buchan, I do have real interest in care2 discussion, I try to stop spreading lies and propaganda and to present more balanced view to the readers."

A piece of advice: start with yourself.

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:07 am
Touche' Jelica!

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:58 am
I can't help but to think that many people are so infected with blind hate lust for Israel that justice and facts no longer matter.This investigation, or should I say inquisition, is terminally flawed. If one was to remove the names of the players and one only examines the methodology used to obtain these findings one can not trust any of these conclusions. I would only hope that if any of the readers were to be brought to a court of law where the judges had publicly declared you guilty before the trial had begun then none of you would say that's justice.

If one is against war then one must condemn everyone involved. Rules to war are absurd. War is absurd. Having Iran yelling war crimes when they sent there children out to clear mines is absurd. Having Syria yelling war crimes when 20 years ago they massacred 50,000 of there own citizens in Hamra. Jordan screaming war crimes when the slaughtered 20-30,000 Palestinians on "Black September" is absurd. The truth is Moslems kill many more Moslems than Israelis. Where is the cry for justice for these people?

If one is for Justice then one must ask for justice particularly for the people you hate the most. Was it Voltaire who said "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

I keep posting the Op-Ed article by Robert Bernstien who's credentials are beyond reproach. He founded Human Rights Watch. His point is that the ideals of Justice, an independent adversarial free press, freedom to dissent are what's important. If the forum making accusations can not or chooses not to rise the these ideals then we are all worse off.

An aside- Abdessalam- I don't believe you are anti-semantic. You seem very verbose. "Goldstone himself is a Jew and none can accuse him with the Zionist ready made accusation " anti semantic ".

Monday November 2, 2009, 11:18 am
Jelica, I am not ruling Gaza and l am not aunching a war against Israel without building bomb shelters for Gazan population, so I can't answer for Hamas.

Hamas already got enough steel for thousands of their rockets. Let them get an extra bit for civilians.

They had to get that cement, protect their civilains and THEN start the war if they really really wanted that war. That is, if they CARED about THEIR civilians besides hating anything Israeli.

But terrorists as they are, they don't. They are happy to see kids dead - more appealing pictures they can take and publisize. Check with Brother Buchan - he always has something new and exciting in his stock gallery.

Notice that Israelis respect their dead and don't post them? May be you don't care about that too. Not only brother Diab brings Diabolic twists here.

I like your advice and will repeat it to you: "start with yourself."

Monday November 2, 2009, 11:34 am
Abdi,

Wikipedia: "As a geographical term, Palestine can also refer to 'ancient Palestine,' an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian territories, as well as part of Jordan, and some of both Lebanon and Syria.[1]"

So, Egyptian Army ran away from Sinai and left those thousands of tanks behind to make a huge trap for Israelis, right? And if Sadat didn't come to Israel with peace you would easily got all that land back, do you? And you didn't really cheat Israelis by promising peace, and keep spreading Diabolic rhetoric like you do, Bro Diab, instead?

Your president Sadat was a great man, It is a pity that Arab world does not have such heroes anymore, and Iran still keeps the street named in honour of the assassin, and not in honour of Sadat. You wouldn't protest that, would you? Now Arab states are ruled by that assassin symphatizers, and that's a pity for the Decent Humanity.

Monday November 2, 2009, 12:08 pm
Spread the love, not the hate please ~ that's how wars are started...
Thank you ~

In peace always,
~ FreeSpirit ~

Monday November 2, 2009, 3:44 pm
WC you never stop trying to silent the truth or twist it to your liking. Why did you leave out America's President, Jimmy Carter, who, along with Anwar Sadat, Prime Minister Rabin, made the peace treaty with Egypt a reality? Jimmy, who did so much to bring peace to the Israeli situation has also been known to air his displeasure with the abuse of power actions coming from certain Israeli leaders in their handling of the Palestinian issue. For Jimmy's efforts to open the door to a more peaceful resolution to these problems, those in power have called Jimmy anti-Semitic!

Are you unaware that the present Israeli leadership, namely, Netanyahu, was opposed to Prime Minister Rabin's peace treaty with Egypt, http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256557983764&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
Netanyahu was a power hungry instigator who stirred up hate causing it to grow and fester towards Rabin which eventually got out of hand, leading to the death of Rabin. At least one rally after Rabin’s death, crowds chanted “Bibi’s a murderer!” accusing Netanyahu of inciting the violence that led to Rabin’s death

NOTE: A major development at the beginning of Rabin's term was the Sinai Interim Agreement between Israel and Egypt, signed on September 1, 1975. Both countries declared that the conflict between them and in the Middle East shall not be resolved by military force but by peaceful means.

You made a statement in one of these Israeli forums that Jews do not kill their own but Palestinians do. Then why did a Jew kill Prime Minister Rabin, a man who was open to peace in the Middle East? The assassin was Yigal Amir, a radical right-wing Orthodox Jew who opposed the signing of the Oslo Accords. Rabin also exhibited more skill in his second term as prime minister, from 1992 until his assassination in 1995. Israel and Palestine remained in conflict over the establishment of Israel as a separate state. Yet Rabin and Yasser Arafat, the leader of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), signed the Declaration of Principles (DOP), "which aimed to terminate Israel’s occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank."

The Arab-Israeli tensions resulted in divisions within Israel itself. Rabin sought to resolve Israel’s conflicts with its Arab neighbors, especially Palestine, through political negotiation. However, some Jewish citizens such as Amir felt betrayed by the Oslo II accords. Amir saw the agreement as handing over land given to the Jews by God to Palestine. He felt that what he perceived as betrayal could only be rectified through murdering Rabin. Jews don't kill Jews WC? Wake up!

Rabin’s was a decent man who sought peace, not empire, and his premature death has had a long-lasting effect on Israel’s relationship with the rest of the Middle East. Many years later, after his death, Israel still struggles with questions of its identity, democratic order, the future of occupied territories, and the chance for peace with Palestine.

It's my opinion that if Rabin had not been murdered there would now be peace between these two peoples. Rachel Corey would not have been crushed under a Bull dozer attempting to save Palestinian homes being demolished. Tens of thousands of Palestinians would not be displace. But thieves were waiting in the wings till Rabin was no more. And so we have the conflict that rages today! You have your nerve to put the blame solely on one side! And Jews do kill their own. Gr$$d, lust for empire, serves only one master. Darkness! http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=benjamin_netanyahu&printerfriendly=true

Neoconservative Richard Perle, part of the GWB administration, was one of the architects behind the illegal war with Iraq and has been a big player when it comes to the ins and outs of what the Israeli government does when it comes to the rebuilding Zionism, WC. http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=benjamin_netanyahu&printerfriendly=true

There may be enough blame to go around WC but I suggest you start by reading the truth about those who would lead Israel in a manner, Rabin, chose not too!

Rabin, Carter and Sadat were man of integrity that "Dare" sought peace. When Rabin, Sadat and Jimmy grasped hands that peace making day, for a moment, the heavens cheered!

Monday November 2, 2009, 3:47 pm
I posted two comments here:

A). Sunday November 1, 2009, 9:16 pm

WC: "The fact is that Hamas WANTED Palestinian civilians to be killed, photographed and publicized through Media to set public opinion against democratic Israel fighting for its survival, a tiny country of 1/10,000 lands to her Arab neighbours...".

Can you prove that "fact"?

WC: "7. Israel is a tiny country, it has 1/10,000 of land of Arab countries, there is not much room to evacuate. Those Arab countries could evacuate Gaza civilians to stay there for the war."

Nonsense. Gaza is highly sealed from land, and Israel routinely violates its sea and air space. Even if war was announced, it would be impossible to evacuate 1,5 mill. people over 3 check points.

You did not bother to answer, you moved to:
-------------------------------------------------
"Wild Cat, Monday November 2, 2009, 5:33 am

Jelica R, what more facts do you need when HAMAS DID NOT BUILD A SINGLE BOMB SHELTER FOR GAZA CIVILIANS WHILE PREPARING FOR THE WAR AND BUILDING BUNKERS AND TUNNELS FOR THEMSELVES?
Now they post all those gruesome picture which happened as a direct result of their actions."
----------------------------------------------------
B) My reply on Monday November 2, 2009, 8:50 am was about logistic and constructing problems of building bunkers for 1,5 million people on a sand, in a high density area with more than 10.000 people on a 1 (just one) square mile without materials and equipment.

How did you address this comment?
------------------------------------------------
Wild Cat, Monday November 2, 2009, 11:18 am

"Jelica, I am not ruling Gaza and l am not aunching a war against Israel without building bomb shelters for Gazan population, so I can't answer for Hamas..."
-----------------------------------------------
I asked you to explain something you proclaim to be a "fact", and you just pilled up more accusations and insults.

I posted my comments about logistic problems considering evacuation and protection for people in Gaza Strip. I can't answer for Hamas, either, but I know what has to be done to solve similar logistic issues. It is complicated, even under ideal circumstances.

Your response?

"Notice that Israelis respect their dead and don't post them? May be you don't care about that too."

Really, how low can you go?

Monday November 2, 2009, 4:28 pm
It was Begin that signed the peace treaty with Egypt not Rabin. Begin founded the Likud party in Israel. Netanyahu is from Likud as was Ariel Sharon. It was Sharon's idea for unilateral disengagement from Lebanon and from Gaza. Both of "these returning of lands" has only brought more Israelis within missile range as demonstrated by Hezbullah, (Iran's proxy), and Hamas, (another Hamas proxy). Jimmy Carter was a one term President that wasn't even allowed into the Democratic primaries by his own party. Under his administration inflation was out of control and he bungled the hostage rescue in Iran. He was and continues to be unpopular with most Democrats, (yes I voted for him twice), and is practically shunned. His library is supported by Saudia Arabia and other Arab enemies of Israel. If he were to write anything worth reading he wouldn't have anyone supporting his library.

Monday November 2, 2009, 4:39 pm
To David R,.

Judge Goldstone has sent a letter to Chairman Berman (D-CA) and Ranking Member Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), regarding H. Res. 867, which exposes the serious factual errors, mischaracterizations and blatant lies contained in the resolution. It is doubtful that the co-sponsors have even read the report or Goldstone's letter, but the bill has been scheduled for a floor vote this Tuesday, in an attempt to avoid any chance of debate or thoughtful decision.

Interesting reading.

Monday November 2, 2009, 4:42 pm
I stand corrected about Rabin being part of that treaty. But not the info about Rabin doing what he could to create peace between the two factions and what the Israeli people felt about Netanyahu's actions causing Rabin's death...As for Jimmy Carter you have your opinion David and others have a far different opinion of the man, the President, the peace maker, Jimmy Carter.

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:18 pm
Jimmy has done more to bring peace to the world then any other President sitting or retired.. What ever one thinks of Jimmy he and Rosalind are warm, non prejudice, giving folks that are appreciated more around the world then they are here at home...Interesting read.. Jimmy Carter Renounces Southern Baptist Convention http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_Carter.html

Monday November 2, 2009, 5:58 pm
Jelica, I already answered your questions

1. of "Can you prove that "fact"? ":
"what more facts do you need when HAMAS DID NOT BUILD A SINGLE BOMB SHELTER FOR GAZA CIVILIANS WHILE PREPARING FOR THE WAR AND BUILDING BUNKERS AND TUNNELS FOR THEMSELVES?
Now they post all those gruesome picture which happened as a direct result of their actions".

What other proofs do you need?

2. "Jelica, I am not ruling Gaza and l am not launching a war against Israel without building bomb shelters for Gazan population, so I can't answer for Hamas. " If you care of your population, and could not prepare bomb shelters, DO NOT START THE WAR. What don't you understand? Where is an insult here? It's just common sense, and not Hamas fanatical hatred.

3. "Gaza is highly sealed from land". - Gaza has a border with Egypt. Besides, Israelis explained which Hamas nests they will bomb next, and asked people to leave. Hamas prevented many of them from leaving. Do you want to say the resulted casualties are Israeli fault?

4. I told you: Hamas gets everything they need. They got great machinery to dig tunnels. They have factoreis to built rockets. They smuggle everything and get taxes to have enough operational cash.

"Hamas already got enough steel for thousands of their rockets. Let them get an extra bit for civilians.

They had to get that cement, protect their civilains and THEN start the war if they really really wanted that war. That is, if they CARED about THEIR civilians besides hating anything Israeli. "

They could get some cement for bomb shelters if they wanted. They just didn' care.

And babe, that was you who didn't answer my point of Israelis respecting their dead and not posting gruesome pictures on the Web for PR reasons, whereas Hamas apologists were shooting movies right there with "heroes" "dying" and "resurrecting" for another movie.

Forgot to mention, Hamas blew up the border to Egypt some time ago for their reasons. They surely could do the same to ensure civilains get refugees, again if they cared.


Jelica, you can try to run away from an answer, but you won't: Hamas does not care about life. They are all hate against Israel and nothing constructive. Keep supporting them if you wish, but you extend the misery of those whom you try to protect.

Monday November 2, 2009, 6:11 pm
BW, what does it have to do with Carter? You may like him, I prefer Reagan, as majority of Americans did. Reagan destroyed Soviet Union, whereas Carter was not up to the task.

Nice that you respect Rabin. BUt you know, Rabin would not divide Jerusalem and would never expell Israelis from Gaza without peace treaty - just read his speeches.

You are very wrong about Netaniyahu. He will make peace, but not surrender.

As long as Hamas exists, and its program calls for destruction of Israel, there will be no peace, no matter who leads Israel.

Monday November 2, 2009, 7:59 pm
I believe that is smarter to let people of the Jewish faith express their feelings about the dire issues that are taking Israel down the wrong path!

Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Zionism
http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

Orthodox Jews Protest Against Netanyahu and His State
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=185

The Difference Between Judaism and Zionism
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

Zionism and Israel - Biographies
Biography of Benjamin Netanyahu
http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/Benjamin_Nethanyahu.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let us take faith and hope in the certainty that eventually prejudice, hatred, and injustice will disappear, and that the prophecy will come true that all nations of the world will participate in the pilgrimage to Jerusalem "for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." G. Neuburger And to this I say Amen!

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:12 pm
Barb, Jews are tolerant to political views and don't bomb each other temples in case of disagreements. Jews happen to be Communists, Monarchists, Capitalists, Zionists, Anti-Zionists, Religious Zionists, Secular Zionists, Assimilationists, etc.

Picking a quote or two does from extremist Arab PR sites not hide the fact that Jerusalem is the most holy city for the Jews and Israel is located in The Land on Israel.

Why should Jews think Israel is on the wrond path? She fights for her survival, and I don't see why they should think otherwise. At the mean time, they are doing pretty good winning their battle against terror and still remaining the technological lead of the World.

Do you have any Arab voices demanding Hamas to stop terrorism and start compromising for the sake of peace? That would be a much more rare find, Barb, but much more interesting.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:33 pm
Thanks David.
Dear Wild cat some of your points could be reassurred, answered or dismissed, as Israel has been controlling Tradeand Aidsince 06 into Gaza. Cement is one product they would not allow through. They dont have machines for digging tunnels, its sheer man power. So this may help answer the other point you made, even if Hammas spent all their time digging holes under peoples houses, it would of offered no protection. bunkerbusting bombs are called that for a reason.
~One of the reports that came out of Gaza showed this, as you describe warnings, they were given five minuets to leave the house, prior to the shelling, but after this as the people were fleeing as instructed the IDF fired Phosphate shells - burning the people fleeing.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:43 pm
Wake up Wild cat. You do not live in the real world. No one can reach you, reason with you, educate you nor have an exchange of ideas with you. Unless they agree with you it becomes a dead end road. It's obvious where your leanings are. To each their own! One of the reasons I do not trust Benjamin Netanyahu is because he is full of himself and speaks out of both sides of his face. I do not agree that he's the right person to lead Israel! Some Jews are even asking if Netanyahu is Israel's Mussolini? That said, I will take my leave since there are other issues I must put time into. I am not into debating, such a serious issue, with someone who is stuck in a revolving door.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:44 pm
A mistake perhaps, sloppy soldiering. The thing is, we all saw it . We also saw the Un relief depos being phospated.asn the ammount of collateral damage whilst Israel had guided sytems. so surley somebody has be accountable.

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:50 pm
http://www.petitiononline.com/amp17jan/petition.html

Monday November 2, 2009, 8:59 pm
As long as the UN is guided by political coalitions based on religious homogeneity with the Arab League, The Islamic nations coalition and add to this mix countries that are beholden because of oil there will never be true justice in any arm of this institution. Once again I point to Robert Bernsteins Op-Ed piece substituting (Human Rights Watch) with UN. He says;

"Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can the" UN, ( substituted for "Human Rights Watch), resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world. If it fails to do that, its credibility will be seriously undermined and its important role in the world significantly diminished."

If one's belief is in the ideals of justice, democratically elected governments, an independent, autonomous judiciary, an independent and adversarial free press and dissent one can not even begin to look at this report as anything other than deeply, irreversibly and terminally flawed. One can not begin with a conclusion and then look for evidence to support one's starting off point. This report fly's in the face of justice. I wouldn't want to be going to a court that starts off with a conclusion.

Monday November 2, 2009, 9:51 pm
Thanks for the link Pete. http://www.petitiononline.com/amp17jan/petition.html over 17,000.00 have signed so far..

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:22 pm
Pete 0, the tunnels are dug very deep, below 60 meteres, they have advanced ventilation system, rails to move goods, etc. This is not a task for a man with a shovel, let's be serious.

Israel would not bomb bomb shleters, you know that, they are not so stupid to give Hamas PR campaign a new spin. That's besides moral considerations, which you may quesiton.

Phosporus is used legally for illumination - by all armies, not only by Israelis. This is how the shell is designed. Well, everything can go wrong, but there is a difference from deliberate shooting at civilians and a shell misfired - even that only AFTER facts are established.

Pete, why don't you ask any questions or raise any points about Hamas who initiated this very war? IT was in their program, they bombed Israel for 8 years with UN doing nothing to stop it, and suddenly we get lots of activities blaming Israel. Considering hands of Arab States pushing UN votes, it is reasonable, but very unfair.

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:33 pm
Barbara, Jews and Israelis say different things and have different opinions - it's a free country, like US and others. You have a right to reject Netaniyahu and I have a right to reject Carter. It's not the point. Israelis are famous for arguing about everything and won the recent World student debate prize in UK for a reason!

You want to discuss if Israel used "disproportinate" force, but you don't ask:

1. Would this war happen in the first place, if Hamas did not have a progam calling for elimination of Israel? No.

2. Would there be so many civilian casulaties on Palestinian side if Hamas built bomb shelters for them before staring the war? NO.

3. How many of those civilians were killed by Hamas own fire? Considering their lack of discipline and coordination, those numbers are expected to be significant. Is it fair to blame all of those on Israel? NO.

I could continue, but the list is long and I am not sure you want to listen to the fair voice of truth. The sad part is that support for extramists causes grief to peaceful people in both Arab states and Israel.

Monday November 2, 2009, 10:43 pm
Pete O, Some extract from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4228420.ece:

"The latest tunnels are much more sophisticated than Abu Mutassem's rudimentary route. Electric tools have replaced digging by hand. Telephone and electricity cables pass through the tunnels, many of which have air pumped in and winches to carry people and goods across. Vacuum cleaners remove loose soil.

Business is booming again after a temporary halt earlier this year when Hamas blasted holes in the border fence between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, opening the way for thousands of Palestinians to cross into Egypt on a massive shopping spree. “We diggers knew it was just a breather, and normal service would be resumed,” said Abu Mutassem. "

Monday November 2, 2009, 11:49 pm
To Take action: go to Codepink website

Judge Richard Goldstone, a highly respected jurist from South Africa whose credentials are impeccable and who is a self-declared Zionist, lead a U.N. fact-finding mission to Gaza in April to investigate what had happened there during "Operation Cast Lead." The 575-page report Goldstone Report that resulted from his investigations, accusing both Israel and Hamas of war crimes violations, was immediately attacked by the Israeli government as biased and unfair.

Last week in a political move of the most cynical kind, Representatives Berman (D-CA) and Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), leadership of the U.S. House Foreign Relations Committee, introduced H Res 867, a bill that reads as though it were drafted by AIPAC, which it might well have been. H Res 867 is calling on the President and the Secretary of State to oppose unequivocally any endorsement or further consideration of the "Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict" in multilateral fora.

Call your Members of Congress TODAY at 202-224-3121 and tell them to vote NO on this flawed legislation. If they have already co-sponsored the bill (check here) and tell them to withdraw their support. You can also email your Representative directly here!

Read Judge Goldstone's detailed response here!

Use the US Campaign Talking Points/FAQ on the Goldstone Report

Let us know how your call went by clicking here

H Res 867 is politics of the worst kind-it is a crass attempt to suppress not only the truth of what Israelis and Palestinians did in Gaza, but any discussion of the issue at all. Thankfully, Judge Goldstone has sent a detailed response, which exposes the serious factual errors, mischaracterizations and blatant lies contained in the resolution. It is doubtful that the co-sponsors have even read the report or Goldstone's letter, but the bill has been scheduled for a floor vote this Tuesday, in an attempt to avoid any chance of debate or thoughtful decision.

Please also fax or email a copy of Judge Goldstone's letter here to Representatives Berman and Ros-Lehtinen to your member of Congress. We cannot assume the letter was shared with other members. Representatives who are on the fence are making up their minds NOW, so your phone call is crucial!

In light of this country's commitment to the universality of human rights, the United States should fully endorse and support the recommendations made in the Goldstone report and use its diplomatic weight to ensure that international institutions act upon the recommendations. We provide $3 billion for weapons and military equipment every year to one of the two parties alleged to have used those weapons illegally; we have more responsibility than any other country to ensure that serious investigations are undertaken of ALL alleged crimes, both Israeli and Palestinian.


Let your Representative know that the way forward to peace between Israel and Palestine must be built upon a foundation of fairness and respect for human rights and rule of law.

Dana, Emily, Farida, Gael, Gayle, Janet, Jodie, Marina, Medea, Nancy, Paris, Rae, Suzanne, and Whitney

P.S. Week of Action! On November 4th, 2008 the Israeli military broke a four-month cease-fire with Hamas. Low-intensity warfare and an ongoing crippling siege then continued until Israel's Dec. 27-Jan 18 assault on the Gaza Strip. Today, the situation in Gaza has deteriorated even further, with 1.5 million civilians continuing to live amidst rubble, dependent on inadequate UN food deliveries, lacking even hearing aids and school books. Use the strategies and tools provided by the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation to shine light on the issue and end Israel's illegal siege on Gaza!




Call Congress and tell your Reps to Vote NO on H Res 867
202-224-3121
or 225-3121

Email your Rep directly and make sure they read Judge Goldstone's own response to the bill

Use Talking Points/FAQ from the US Campaign

Let us know how your call went here






SUSTAIN PEACE!

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 5:41 am
To W.C.
The argument on this subject has been here for a while. The great majority who shared this discussion are in favor of supporting Goldstone report, already thousand signed the petition and thousands more will.I haven't seen an Israeli person on care2 against the report.For a while I thought W.C. is an Israeli but he / she denied any knowledge of Hebrew so I assume he / she is not an Israeli.As this is the case, I don't know why she / he reminds me with a famous proverb " Don't bark your self if you have a dog".

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 6:07 am
Abdi, if you look into the numbers, those who signed are minority out of the huge readership Care2 has, that petition was promoted many times here and elsewhere. Obvioiusly, majority of the people understand that the concept "proportionality" that Arab states try to push in the disguise of that report will hurt Israel first - but it will hurt US Army next.

Terrorists now are not what they used to be, they command regions in Gaza, Afganistan, etc - so they need Army-level efforts to take care of them. Terror apologists try to take that Army ability away.

Abdi, Iike that verb. And I like another Arab saying: "Dogs bark, but caravan goes". Unfortunately, now dogs started attacking the caravan and must be stopped.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 6:13 am
Briggite, you wrote about 3B of US Aid to Israel. Why did you forget to mention 12 BILLION of US AID going every year to Islamic countries?

At least, Israel is a reliable ally, while Arab States are famous for those cries " Death to America" on any outdoor activity and giving candies to celebrate American tragedies, like 9/11. Which Aid should be stopped first?

And you know, Israel canceled several defensive contacts worth of tens of Billions of dollars under pressure from US Defence, so not to compete. If US cancels the aid, Israel would compensate the lost money, and we (US) will lose more.

Don't cut the chicken bringing your golden eggs, Brig.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 7:52 am
I' ll just ignore your last comments cause in a nutshell I do not care if you " lose more" or not. But thank you for making it clear ALL you really care about is $$$$$$$$$.

I 'll only say this:

WC, you obviously don't understand the concept of Resistance. Worse, you support the Oppressor.

That makes you no different than the Nazi during WWII. They hated the Resistance and kept killing more innocent civilians in retaliation, while blaming the resistants for everything.

It is a simple fact of life. Resistance against oppression and organized genocide is a matter of SURVIVAL.

Even a child can understand this. But Trolls don't have functioning brains, and all they can do is post the same meaningless crap forever... Well in the end, who cares? they give everyone else extra opportunities to post more and more meaningful & informative comments on those topics :P

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:34 am
Come on Brig, that report was on terrorist side - and its supporters. Only Hamas program calls for genocide, that's how the war started in the first place. If you don't like genocide, why do you try to save Hamas? Weird.

You can call others Trolls, or bring Nazis etc - but it does not hide the danger this report creates for the Americans, forget Israelis.

Actually, why did you bring Nazis in the first place? To remind everyone that majority of Arabs supported Hitler, or that with WWII crminal Mufti of Jerusalem (Arafat's uncle) was hiding in Egypt after the war to escape justice? To mention that Naser of Egypt was proud to wear Iron Cross? You don't find too many Nazi admirers here, Brig. There are other sites for them - and they won't argue with you, they will gladly sign all the petitions you push.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 9:24 am
Abdi, I told you: "Your president Sadat was a great man, It is a pity that Arab world does not have such heroes anymore, and Iran still keeps the street named in honour of the assassin, and not in honour of Sadat. You wouldn't protest that, would you? Now Arab states are ruled by that assassin symphatizers, and that's a pity for the Decent Humanity"

Looks like both of us respect Sadat. Then what do you think about Iran openly supporting his assassin?

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 11:53 am
Signed ! thanks David and all who made informative comments.

Yes WC,(Fashco? surely not) there are many in the US who would be in ''danger'' of hard jail time if 'our' war criminals were actually brought to justice.

Re Mohammad al Durah, which I have seen you and your many previous identities refer to , please supply a link to back up your assertion that it was in fact Palestinians who killed him.
Last I heard , the IDF admitted responsibility before bulldozing the wall containing the evidence without actually doing any forensic examinations, which is not the actions I would expect from an innocent party.

BTW, you're flagged.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 4:54 pm
Hiya
wild cat I read the some the links you sent, Thank you.
I was concerned that the term machinary would implied they have diggers and other heavy duty machinary, so what you said was accurate regarding the Tunnels being sophisticated. but not quiet as clever as the channel tunnel.
You hint on the Hammas charter, there we all agree, that is a point where we all would like to see change. however it is only one sentance however dire it is
.Hamas have explained us (the world ) to listen, to what their leaders are saying, as an indication of their position and not the charter, as it is old. but they will not write a new charter for politness sake when the settlement are still continueing. As that implies to them, that Israle is still operating under previouse ministers call for their cruel treatment. Israel has never retracted any of it previouse leaders. OPf course we know we know they will not do the things some have said. Hammas's position is clear to me anyway
1 the opening of the borders so people can get on with their lives, Trade, tend their flocks and visit their families who are separted, fish the sea and farm the land. not for bad things.
2 the right for those who are still dissplaced to return. In order to enable this they need the un resolution supporting the old 67 boundaries to be supported.
3 The return of the political prisoners
its do-able

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 5:01 pm
The choice, I see for Israel is one of cost, do they continue to fund the knesset with taxes from building settlements or develop a relationship with the people, who did live with side by side with them, untill of course after ww2.
hiya Pete

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 8:35 pm
I have one last thought. I have shared with everyone how this process was horribly corrupted by the UNHRC stating in it's inception Israel's guilt. One of the inquisitors signed a public letter that Israel was guilty of war crimes before a shred of evidence was collected. A second inquisitor is from Pakistan a Moslem country without diplomatic relations with Israel capped by the most cynical thinking which was to ask a Jew to head the inquisition to give political cover as no one could shout anti-semitism with a Jew heading the inquisition.

I believe from the bottom of my heart that 2 processes, (at least), are going on. The first is REVENGE the second is JUSTICE. If one's motives are revenge then corrupting this process shouldn't be a problem. Of course when it's time for this corrupted process to judge you or the group that you support then you will have no recourse. The second is Justice. It's not just to state a conclusion then find evidence that suits that conclusion. It is very difficult to ask for justice for someone or group that you hate but that's exactly how ideals are truly tested. Justice would be a group who's authority is to look for ALL war crimes. A place where the investigators have not formed any conclusions before any evidence is sought nor who's nation refuses to even acknowledge your very existence.

I see people always quoting;
"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”
- Pastor Martin Niemoeller

If people pride themselves in seeking justice then this justice should be for everybody and not just for people you agree with.

Tuesday November 3, 2009, 9:30 pm
Touche' Brigitte.. Pete what a concept! People from differenet cultures sharing space with each other, not Weapons of Mass Distruction. Like Johm Lennon said "Give Peace a Chance"

Thanks you guys for all the wealth of info that's been shared here.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 1:30 am
Return to the Middle Ages

By Bouthaina Shaaban

History will condemn those who remain silent towards these crimes and will remember and thank only those who defend Palestinian children and the right of the Palestinian people to live in dignity, freedom, security and safety on their national soil.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23891.htm

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 2:53 am
And the war crimes during the Iraq’s war?! You forgot them? Before the invasion of the Iraq, the Alcaeda wasn't there! And the Sadam Hussain hasn’t any massive destruction weapons.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:02 am
And the war crimes during the Iraq’s war?! You forgot them? Before the invasion of the Iraq, the Alcaeda wasn't there! And the Sadam Hussain haven’t any massive destruction weapons.

EDITED

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 3:06 am
Now the Alcaeda is at Iraq! They come to Iraq during the Iraq’s war.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 4:58 am
PLEASE READ THIS
UNITED NATIONS
A
General Assembly
Distr.
GENERAL
A/HRC/12/NGO/10
4 September 2009
ENGLISH ONLY
HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL Twelfth session
Agenda item 7
HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION IN PALESTINE AND OTHER OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES
Joint written statement* submitted by Adalah – The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, the Badil Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights, the Habitat International Coalition (HIC), non-governmental organizations in special consultative status
The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31.
[27 August 2009]
* This written statement is issued, unedited, in the language(s) received from the submitting non-governmental organization(s).
GE.09-15619
A/HRC/12/NGO/10
page 2
Recurring Dispossession and Displacement of 1948 Palestinian Refugees in the Occupied Palestinian Territory1
1. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Palestinians fled or were expelled from parts of Mandate Palestine, many finding refuge in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), including East Jerusalem (“Palestinian Refugees”). At the beginning of 2009, there were over 1,813,000 Palestinian refugees in the OPT representing 45% of its population of approximately 4 million Palestinians. More than 754,000 reside in the occupied West Bank, and over 1,059,000 in the occupied Gaza Strip.2
2. Israel not only disrespects the right of these refugees to return to their homes of origin, but continues to dispossess and displace them within their place of refuge, namely the OPT over which Israel exercises effective control as an occupying power.
3. While aiming at illegally asserting control over the maximum amount of land with a minimum number of Palestinians and implanting Jewish-only settlements, Israel is forcibly displacing the Palestinian civilian population, refugees and non-refugees, in the OPT including East Jerusalem. Different measures have been adopted by Israel to achieve its goal, such as land confiscation, home demolition, eviction and the construction of the Wall. These practices run counter to international human rights and humanitarian law.
4. Dispossession and displacement of Palestinians, including refugees, in occupied East Jerusalem, illegally annexed by Israel, has noticeably increased. These policies and practices aim at asserting pressure on this community to leave the city.3 Of particular concern are Palestinian neighborhoods that face ongoing mass eviction and home demolition including those in Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan, Beit Hanina and Al-Turi.4
5. In some cases, Israel expropriates Palestinian-owned property through a complex system of legal, administrative and institutional mechanisms, subsequently leasing or transferring these properties to Jewish settlers. In other cases, settlers make use of Israeli courts to lay claim to property inhabited by Palestinians, claiming ownership by Jewish individuals or associations prior to 1948. The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled in favor of such claims while failing to recognize the rights of Palestinian refugees to reclaim lost land and property.
6. For example, some Palestinian refugees who moved to Sheikh Jarrah in 1956 following an agreement between UNRWA and the Government of Jordan were evicted from their homes by Israeli authorities on 2 August 2009, following a court ruling.5 As a result, 53 Palestinian refugees, including 20 children, have once again been displaced. With no alternative residence,
1 Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA), Association for the Defense of the Rights of the Internally Displaced Persons in Israel (ADRID), Al-Maqdese for Society Development, Civic Coalition for Defending Palestinian Rights in Jerusalem (CCDPRJ), Comitato Internazionale per lo Sviluppo dei Popoli (CISP), Israeli Committee against House Demolitions (ICAHD), Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign and Zochrot Association, Center on Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE), the Housing and Land Rights Network, also share the views expressed in this statement.
2 Badil, Survey of Palestinian Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons 2008 (forthcoming).
3 OCHA, Special Focus: The Planning Crisis in East Jerusalem: Understanding the Phenomenon of
“illegal” Construction, April 2009.
4 Ibid.
5 Civil Court case 4744/02, TPS 12705.
A/HRC/12/NGO/10
page 3
the families are forced to camp out on the street in front of their homes. Their appeal to overturn the eviction was rejected on 9 August 2009. Their properties were handed over to a settler organization that intends to build a new settlement in the area, while placing 300 refugees living in the area at imminent risk of forced eviction dispossession and displacement.6
7. Settlers have also laid claim to several other plots in Sheik Jarrah, including 33 buildings that are home to almost 175 people, most of whom are refugees. Although the case is still pending in the Israeli courts, a group of settlers, accompanied by Israeli police entered the area on 26 July 2009 and occupied one of the buildings.7
8. While the Israeli executive branch plans what it calls the “Judaization” of East Jerusalem, and the judiciary fails to respect and protect the rights of Palestinian refugees and their property, it is the legislative branch that plays an active role in preventing refugees from reclaiming lost land and property. On 3 August 2009, one day after the eviction of tens of Palestinian refugees in Sheikh Jarrah, the Knesset adopted a new land reform law – Israel Land Administration (ILA) Law - that legalizes the privatization of land originally owned by Palestinians, including refugees who currently reside in the OPT. This law retroactively legitimizes the ILA’s sale of absentee property, which includes refugee property. Thus, for instance, 96 such tenders were issued in 2007, while 106 tenders were published in 2008.8 The new law has repercussions on the right of Palestinian refugees to restitution and violates their property rights, in contravention of international humanitarian and human rights law.9
9. The new law allows the transfer of land from state and the Jewish National Fund “ownership” into private Jewish-ownership in occupied East Jerusalem, illegally annexed by Israel. The privatization process will encompass the settlements and areas planned for development (settlement construction) in occupied East Jerusalem. In essence, Israel will generate huge profits from the privatization of land in the OPT, despite its legal obligations as an occupying power under international humanitarian and human rights law to respect the right to private property and refrain from permanent confiscation of such property.
6 OCHA, Fact Sheet: Sheikh Jarrah, August 2009.
7 OCHA, Fact Sheet, Op. cite.
8 Adalah to Attorney General and Custodian of Absentee Property: Israel’s Sale of
Palestinian Refugee Property Violated Israeli and International Law, Press Release, 22
June 2009).
9 The 1907 Hague Regulations stipulates the need of combatants to respect the right to private property and explicitly prohibits permanent confiscation of private property following the termination of warfare. The U.S. Military Tribunal at Nuremberg was the first to address the confiscation of property following the end of fighting in the Second World War. In U.S. v. Alfred Krupp et al., the tribunal ruled that such confiscation of property and its subsequent acquisition by the Krupp firm constituted a violation of Article 46 of the 1907 Hague Regulation. U.S. v. Alfred Krupp et al. cited in How Does Law Protect in War? Cases, document and teaching materials on contemporary practice in international humanitarian law, 2nd ed., Vol.2 (ICRC, 2006), p.1030, and Adalah’s letter addressed to the Attorney General on Tenders for selling absentees’ property administered by Amidar, 19 May 2009.
A/HRC/12/NGO/10
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RECOMMENDATIONS
We therefore urge the Human Rights Council to call on Israel to:
(1) Immediately halt dispossession and displacement of Palestinians, including refugees, in the OPT by putting an end to forced eviction and home demolition;
(2) Facilitate the return of the displaced to their homes as a result of forced eviction and house demolition; ensure the implementation of the UN Principles on Housing and Property Restitution for Refugees and Displaced Persons (“Pinheiro Principles”); and seek a durable solution to the refugee plight, namely repatriation;
(3) Protect the rights of Palestinians to land and property and ensure respect for international human rights and humanitarian law;
(4) Annul the new Israel Land Administration Law, end the transfer of ownership rights over Palestinian refugee property, and promote the right of Palestinian refugees to property restitution.
- - - - -

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 5:38 am
Wild Cat said
"Abdi, I told you: "Your president Sadat was a great man, It is a pity that Arab world does not have such heroes anymore, and Iran still keeps the street named in honour of the assassin, and not in honour of Sadat. You wouldn't protest that, would you? Now Arab states are ruled by that assassin symphatizers, and that's a pity for the Decent Humanity"

Looks like both of us respect Sadat. Then what do you think about Iran openly supporting his assassin?

And I say " W.C. The relations between Egypt and Iran is non of your business . Egypt and Iran will be always able to settle their difference peacefully. So STAY OUT OF THIS.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 10:05 am
Who is defending his wright to live?

Go to my friend Locan's news Israel endorses Iran nuclear plan, and look at the map.

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 12:13 pm
and lets not forget Rachelle Corrie.
Signed. TY

Wednesday November 4, 2009, 12:37 pm
Carol It's difficult to understand why our leaders allowed this brutal killing of Rachel to go without out serious intervention by our leadership..WE sure would have screamed foul if this had happened in Iran!

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:47 am
''As expected, the U.S. Congress followed the dictates of AIPAC and passed a resolution designed to block the Goldstone Report from reaching the U.N. Security Council and the International Criminal Court.

However, the Goldstone Report has been submitted directly to the ICC by NAMAW (National Association of Muslim American Women) with an appeal to the court to investigate the allegations made by Justice Richard Goldstone.
Please support them in this initiative by contacting the Prosecutor’s Office of the ICC to let it be known that you want action taken too.

Kiwi Girl is about to “walk the walk” when she makes a compassionate and courageous journey to Gaza in December as part of a Code Pink attempt to end the siege there. The least the rest of us can do is to write (respectively please) to:


The Hon. Luis Moreno-Ocampo
International Criminal Court
Office of the Prosecutor
Communications
P.O. Box 19519
2500 CM The Hague
The Netherlands

or email to otp.informationdesk@icc-cpi.int ,
or FAX to +31 70 515 8555.

To read NAMAW’s letter to the ICC go to:
http://namaw.org/NAMAW_News.html ''

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23891.htm

Thursday November 5, 2009, 1:48 am
Please write to ICC and forward the above widely!

Friday November 6, 2009, 5:35 pm
The war is a crime it self, destroying human life, roads, bridges and people's home. The war also cause all kind crimes against children, woman and old men.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 5:22 am
Israel is the looser. Now it is high time for the jewish government to make peace with the palestinians and stopp it' aggressive behaviour in the occupide sectors.Jerusalem is the only capital of Palestine. Stopp expanding in the WestBank. If Isreal does not intend to have peace with the palestinians in the long run she will loose it's positions in the aria.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Saturday November 7, 2009, 10:50 pm
There's much I'd like to say on this subject, but Wild Cat and David R. have pretty much said it for me. I have seen and continue to see many condemning Israel while ignoring Arab-Arab violence which is much worse. Abdessalam's comment to "stay out of this" is a fine example. Abdessalam, you are basically saying you have the right to condemn anyone you like, but others don't have the right to comment on your country's dirty laundry. Sorry, but that's hypocrisy.

Israel did more to prevent civilian casualties in Operation Cast Lead than had ever been done before in military history. The Gazans were warned, and yes David, they did have someplace to go...... OUT OF THE CITIES.

Saturday November 7, 2009, 10:56 pm
Goodbye and good luck Thomas, the ship you are sailing in has many holes and leaks in it and is sinking fast...

Abandon ship and GET REAL!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 12:13 am
The way the israel goverment is acting with it's aggressive stang against the Palestinian people, Israel in digind it's final grave. They must understand that peace must be reached in the area. The naci ways of tackeling the problem is not the way of any solution.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Sunday November 8, 2009, 12:51 am
"Sinking fast"... we'll see. I'm not sure what you mean actually, but barring nuclear attack, I predict Israel will hold quite firm onto their sliver or land for many, many generations. Peace is indeed vital toward any positive outcome in this human tragedy, but peace will not come by isolating Israel, and putting Israel on the defensive through international condemnation can only make the situation worse for Gazans.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 12:53 am
And if by "Goodbye" David, you think I've joined this conversation with the intent of a hit and run, then you've greatly misjudged me. I assure you, I'll not abandon ship and I'm quite real.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:09 am
It is not the question of isolating Israel. Israel is using the same ways thatte naci used against the jews. Palestenian have the full right to live a peacefull life. Wht they have done in Gaza is unhuman.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Sunday November 8, 2009, 1:04 pm
I've said it before, I'll say it again. As soon as you try to compare your opposition to Hitler or the nazis, you show that you have nothing constructive to say and therefore lose the argument. You cannot correctly or justifiably compare blockades and precision military strikes to the industrialized extermination of 6 million Jews plus countless other millions of Russians, homosexuals, Gypsies and disabled people.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 1:40 pm
"You cannot correctly or justifiably compare blockades and precision military strikes to the industrialized extermination of 6 million Jews plus countless other millions of Russians, homosexuals, Gypsies and disabled people."

Yes you can.

A life is a life, and the life of a Palestinian is as precious as the life of a Jew.

Thank goodness there are many Jewish people who agree with this. Read the words of Rabbi Rosen which were posted above:

"Since the report's publication, the UN and commission chair Judge Richard Goldstone have been vilified and disparaged, by both the Israeli government and American Jewish leaders. There has been little consideration of the actual findings, or the fact that Israel refused to cooperate with the commission, or conduct its own investigation.

As a rabbi, this grieves me deeply. For, painful as it is for us to admit, Israel's behavior in Gaza has consistently betrayed our shared Jewish ethical legacy.

This was true before the war, when the Israeli blockade denied Palestinians basic necessities; it was true during the war, when Israel responded with disproportionate force to Hamas rockets; and it has been true since the war.” (3)

JVP strongly urges that the Goldstone Report findings be taken with all the serious consideration it merits, and that its recommendations be implemented. "

And if words don't matter to you, why don't you look at the pictures there:

Pictures Prove:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

THE GRANDCHILDREN OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS FROM WORLD WAR II ARE DOING TO THE PALESTINIANS EXACTLY WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM BY NAZI GERMANY...

Warning: includes graphic photos.

[Not to start a dialog with someone who sounds incurably biased and has a suspiciously trollish attitude].

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:20 pm
"[...]

I would maintain that in fact we are the witnesses of an ongoing holocaust in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. We also witness Israel preparing itself to nuke Iran in the name of Jewish history and the Holocaust in particular. In front of our eyes we see the emergence of evil on a colossal magnitude, and we are somehow paralyzed by a historical chapter that, in comparison to contemporary Israeli crimes, has less and less significance or relevance.

Rather than being subject to an idolatry of an untouchable past, we better start to be concerned with the HERE and NOW, with the genocides that are committed in our names and under our nose by Israel and its supporters around the world."

Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military. He lives in London, and is the author of two novels: A Guide to the Perplexed and the recently released My One and Only Love. Atzmon is also one of the most accomplished jazz saxophonists in Europe. He can be reached at: atz@onetel.net.uk.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23904.htm

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:29 pm
"We also witness Israel preparing itself to nuke Iran in the name of Jewish history and the Holocaust in particular".

You cannot currently send a star to Brigitte. ********************************************.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:23 pm
Rather than being subject to an idolatry of an untouchable past, we better start to be concerned with the HERE and NOW, with the genocides that are committed in our names and under our nose by Israel and its supporters around the world."

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:40 pm
Rather than being subject to an idolatry of an untouchable past, we better start to be concerned with the HERE and NOW, with the genocides that are committed in our names and under our nose by Israel and its supporters around the world."

Sunday November 8, 2009, 5:12 pm
You're right, Barbara

Only, it seems that here and now, combined with plain logic, surpass some discussants capability

Monday November 9, 2009, 10:53 am
The Jews has suffered from the Naci, that does not mean that they have to use the same barberic ways with the Palestinians. That is why I drew a resemblance with Naci actions. The use of phosphoric bombs in Gaza was unfair and I call it genocid.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Monday November 9, 2009, 12:12 pm
Perhaps you don't understand the word genocide, let me tell you a story.

I have a great aunt who has a serial number tattooed on her wrist, as did her mother. Her story is very, very rare, as she is a female who survived Auschwitz. When prisoners arrived at Auschwitz, they got off the train (those who didn't expire from the train ride, thousands died on the trains) and were immediately separated into two groups:

1) Men and boys who were healthy and physically capable of hard labor and,
2) Everyone else, all the women and girls, young boys, elderly men and women, the sick, the disabled, and babies.

The first group were given serial numbers, assigned a bunk and immediately put to hard labor.

All the rest were led away from the train to a building, told to disrobe and leave all their possessions in a pile for a shower. They were then all herded into the gas chamber and gassed before being cremated in the ovens.

My great aunt, her mother and a number of other women, boys and girls were "spared" if they had usable skills, my great aunt and her mother were seamstresses. If they hadn't been, I never would have met them, the same way I never got to meet most of my mother's father's family. My great aunt was one of the lucky ones, many Jews who dared to protest were thrown into the ovens and cremated alive.

If you can't tell the difference between this and what's happening in Gaza, then there's either something wrong with your brain, or you're so full of hate that you can't see clearly.

Do you have the right to compare Israel to nazi Germany? Of course you do, freedom of speech and all that, this point I concede.

Now let's discuss what you accomplish when you make these comparisons:

1) You piss off nearly every Jew who is working for a two state solution, wants peace and understands the suffering of the Gazans. Jews worldwide, especially in America, know that Israel does actually give a damn what American Jews think because Israel receives a considerable amount of funding from American Jews, but when we hear Israel compared to the nazis, we wonder who we're working along side of, and whether or not with people such as you working on our side, this movement can have any positive effect on Israel's attitude toward Gaza. Because of this, sometimes we think we might as well not bother.

2) You demonstrate to Israel that there are a lot of people all over the world who hate Israel no matter what it does, which can only serve to isolate Israel further from the world community, putting it on the defensive and convincing Israel that it cannot afford to take what people from other countries say on this subject seriously.

3) You make every serious progressive activist look like a harebrained, reactionary, whining, insensitive, hateful holocaust denier.

4) You demonstrate to other progressive activists such as myself, and anyone else who reads your writings, that your motivations for contributing to sites such as Care2 are not altruistic, as in wanting to help Palestinians and create peace, but selfish, as in wanting to use Care2 as a forum for you to vent your hate and frustration........and that you and your writings are not to be taken seriously.

So you must ask yourself, why do you contribute to these forums? Which is more important to you, condemning Israel or working to build a community of activists who are united toward ending the tragedy in Gaza and creating a lasting peace? If your answer is the latter, then you might want to think about the effect your comparing Israel to nazis is having on this vital movement.

Monday November 9, 2009, 12:47 pm
As an Armenian I realy know whatgenocid means. My pople suffered from the Ottoman Empire. Don't come to tell me that what the Israel government did in Gaza and against the Palestenians is wright. using phosphor bombs is essential. what the present Israel government is doing in the area is ncorrect and unhuman. They must understand that peace is the only way for the prosperity of the region.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:34 pm
Thomas please do not make remarks that those here at Care2 who have a different opinion then you, about the action of the leadership in Israel, hate Jews! That is so unfair and for many of US far from any semblance of truth! Many of US dislike bully's! Whether it be a Palestinian bully or an Israeli. What do you know of the people here at Care2 and what their background may be when it comes to a family suffering a genocide of some kind?

I have always admired your input but today I am having difficulty understanding why you don't get it!
Palestinian children, like Israeli children, are caught in the middle of hate and or empire building. Both side are Answerable! Some Muslims, like Jews, care very deeply about truth and would love to see peace in the Middle east! And there are those so full of hate, all they seek is revenge! Not everyone at care2 is using this forum to spread hate. Many of US are trying to spread truth!

Remember Thomas hate is often borne in the heart a person who loses every one in their family which can fuel revenge in their heart against those who were responsible. Who among US can say that one of us would not fall into this trap if this pain became our own?

I truly believe that there are leaders in Israel who do not want peace unless they can control the whole enchilada.. Much as "We" have seen coming down in the America leadership.. My Jewish friends and I go back many years and they understand what I and others are trying to do! I was appalled that "We" went into IRAQ, illegally, and children and the elderly became our victims. I am sick knowing that we left killer depleted uranium all over Iraq. I was equally angered that Israel decided to go after Hamas using White phosphorus, which began maiming and killing children and the elderly, in their quest! IT WAS WRONG! It was vicious to use WMD. Children's bodies burning, and burning, relief only coming in death from weapons "We" supplied! White phosphorus!

It matters not who commits this sort of atrocity. They should not be allowed to get away with it"

I am painfully aware that no matter who the Palestinians end up with as their voice, certain Israeli leaders cry foul! It is a sad commentary that when you disagree with the Israeli governments actions you are now anti-Semitic! "I" RESENT THAT! My Jewish friends resent this analogy because they know that it's based on control not the truth of what's really motivating certain entities. Both sides have their agendas. Both sides have leaders that care little for the people caught in the middle!

If the Israeli government honestly wanted peace why do they restrict Israelis from protesting their own governments methods? A prominent Israeli peace activist is expected to be sentenced to several months in jail tomorrow in a high-profile prosecution which began after he tried to stop the demolition of Palestinian homes near a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank. http://jao.org.au/?p=131

Why is a Palestinian, whose only crime is that of a peace activist, imprisoned? New Yorkers join protest for jailed Palestinian activist http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/10/18/195140/62

These are some extraordinary times Thomas which calls for extraordinary leadership. Leaders that wish to speak to peace must be above reproach!

Whatever you or I feel about the pros and cons Thomas, where Israel is concerned, why can we not agree that no one, period, has the right to kill innocence, anywhere, anytime, and call it acceptable! If there are folks who believe that Israel should be destroyed then I say, not on my watch! But if there are folks here who say Palestinians have no rights I "Dare" say by whose authority? And to those who say Palestinians should be made to suffer for past crimes, then I say, so too should Israel!

As an American I am adamant that certain members of the GWB administration stepped way over the line of humane treatment and they should be tried for crimes against humanity! Mans inhumanity seems to know no bounds! Crosses all cultures and religions,....Personally, I am sick of those who threaten, use fear tactics in an attempt to coerce those who disagree with them.. If the Israeli government does not like the way some American's view their maiming and killing of Palestinian children then tens of thousands of sins are upon them! American's are paying dearly, losing their homes because of catastrophic health care cost, etc., while huge sums of American dollars go to the leaders of Israel..

Please do not tell me I hate because the only thing I really can be accused of hating is hate itself! It feeds like cancer. Certain groups in Israel hate! Certain groups would covet that which belongs to others! Certain groups in Israel have "Great love in their hearts" for all peoples! This overall analogy applies to all nations!

As long as "We" look to place blame, and not accept that which we are to be blamed for, there will never be a meeting of the minds.. Saints and Sinners, as many of you know, is a favorite of mine...

When somebody yields to temptation
And breaks one of man’s or God’s laws,
We look for no good in his make-up,
But oh! how we look for the flaws!
No one cares about how he was tempted,
Nor praises the battles he’s fought;
His name becomes food for the jackals --
For us who have never been caught.
“He has sinned!” we shout from the house-tops,
We forget the good deeds he has done,
We focus on that one lost battle,
And forget all the times he has won.
“Come, gaze at the sinner!” we thunder,
“And by his example be taught
That his footsteps lead to destruction!”
Cry we who have never been caught.

I’m a sinner, O Lord, and I know it,
I’m weak, I blunder, I fail.
I’m tossed on life’s stormy ocean
Like ships embroiled in a gale.
I’m willing to trust in Thy mercy,
To keep the commandments Thou’st taught,
But deliver me, Lord, from the judgement
Of saints who have never been caught! Peace, Barbara

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:42 pm
Yes, the area needs peace, but as a person from an ethnic group that HAS suffered genocide, you should know that genocide is the extermination or attempted extermination of an entire race or ethnic group. If Israelis wanted to wipe Palestinians from the face of the planet, they would not have dropped the many thousands of leaflets warning the Gazan people of the upcoming military action in their cities, and would not have used precision guided munitions. They would have carpet bombed the cities and refugee camps, and they would have done it a long time ago.

Genocide is what happened to your people. Genocide is what happened to my people. Genocide is what the Serbs did to their Muslims. Genocide happened in Rwanda and continues to happen in Darfur. What's happening in Gaza doesn't even come close. As a member of a population that did indeed suffer genocide Hermon, I'm surprised you wouldn't be more sensitive to this word's usage.

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:42 pm
We don't hate Jews Thomas just Zionists; like we don't hate Germans just Nazis.
Genocide is genocide irrespective of who commits it.

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:48 pm
I agree with everything you wrote in your last post, Barbara. I'm not accusing anyone of being anti-Semitic, I'm saying that comparing Israelis to Nazis is inaccurate, unnecessary, counter-productive and hateful toward Israel.

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:50 pm
Also Thomas citing other genocides to excuse another doesn't make the other genocide any more palatable, no matter if it is to a lesser degree; all are reprehensible. Like pregnacy there is no almost.
There is no moral high ground for you or Israel to claim here.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:00 pm
gen⋅o⋅cide
  /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

You tell me how the definition of this word applies to what the Israelis are doing to Gazans. The use of white phosphorous does NOT make a genocide.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:06 pm
Let me ask you this John. If Hamas fought and launched their rockets from non-populated areas, is it your opinion that Israel would still attack Gazan cities?

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:12 pm
Don't be disingenuous; you're just prevaricating.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:21 pm
Israel has been attacking Palestinians since the 1940's. Let's not forget who the original terrorists bombing the cafes and hotels in Palestine and who also killed American and British servicemen were; the leader of whom Menachem Begin was later an Israeli politician and who Israel made Prime Minister in 1977. Begin and his associates were murderers just like any Arab terrorist you could name.
Except just like the Arabs you call them "freedom fighters" and heroes.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:59 pm
And it's your version of things that the founders of modern Israel did what they did out of sheer blood lust and greed? And disingenuous nothing, either you believe that it is Israel's intent to wipe out every Palestinian man, woman and child (which WOULD be genocide), or you don't and are therefore consciously using the word genocide inappropriately.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:09 pm
And the hotel bombed was the King David hotel which housed the target: British headquarters. This was done because the Brits were turning away boatloads of dead and dying death camp survivors, as were ports all over the world, including the U.S. Someone had to do something to help these people and the Jewish settlers in then Palestine were the only ones who did.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:10 pm
Disingenuous yet again!!!
Menachem Begin's terrorist acts are a matter of historical record.
Israelis don't like Holocaust denial so it would behoove you not deny historical fact either lest you are perceived as a hypocrite and an apologist for state sponsored murder.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:20 pm
So this made it right? If only it had been just the King David Hotel. Perhaps the Palestinians are just attacking Israel with makeshift weapons because they want their homes and the land you stole back and because their people are dying? By your logic this is a justifiable act.
No doubt you have a ready made excuse for every act of murder carried out by Israel; the Palestinians didn't start this, Israel and the Zionists did.
Israel has no historic claim to Palestine; the majority of the population are a disparate bunch of foreigners with no indiginous claim, just a tenuous link via religion.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 9:53 am
The leaflets dropped by Israel in Gaza was only propaganda. Israel tried to justify the crimes against the Pelestinians. Justifying the use phosphore bombs in Gaza. genocid is also what Israel has done in Gaza. Yous must not try to smooth what happend in Gaza. The truth is truth.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 1:54 pm
I responded to your attack about the hotel only, John. I wasn't there and neither were you, so neither of us know. I'm aware there have been any number of horrific incidents of violence towards Palestinians by Israelis and I'm not apologizing or trying to justify any of them. I'd like to point out the following comment you made:

"because they want their homes and the land you stole back"

I'm not from Israel, so are you trying to group all Jews into one bunch that are collectively responsible for the horror in Gaza? It sure sounds like it. As far as homes that were stolen, I will be completely with you on the issue of allowing Palestinians right of return, as soon as I see some recognition that the Jews who were forcibly expelled from Syria, Egypt, Iraq Jordan and Lebanon at the same time, who incidentally numbered far more than the Arabs ejected from Israel, should also be allowed to return to their old homes. No one talks about them at all.

Hermon, are you saying with your comment that Gazans were NOT warned about Israel's military action?

I started commenting on this board solely about Israel being compared to nazi Germany. Why? I think I spelled out my reasons quite rationally and calmly, then everyone got offended. You resort to calling your opposition nazis, and you lose the argument. Period. It doesn't matter who you're talking about. The teabaggers do it to President Obama because they have nothing valid to say. I despise George W. Bush and Dick Cheney with every fiber of my being, and I'm aware they employed a number of propaganda techniques mastered my Goebbels, but when I see or hear people comparing these two degenerates to Hitler as a matter of formal protest, I have the same reaction. It makes you look weak and irrational. I would prefer, as I believe would you all though I may be wrong, that the two-state peace movement NOT been seen by the rest of the world as extremist, weak, irrational, hateful or condemnatory, but as a movement that understands that the situation in Gaza is the result of historical tragedy on all sides, that there have been atrocities committed by both sides, and that both sides must find within them the ability to see the other side as human and deserving of a home state, and must find the ability to forgive and move on if it is to happen at all.

There has not been on this earth, a more horrific act of mass murder than the holocaust and hopefully there never will be again. When you compare ANYTHING or anyone to nazis or the holocaust, you greatly weaken your argument at the very least. Why is it that I cannot get this simple f-ing point across without people calling me an apologist or Zionist? What you all don't seem to understand is that I'm on your side of this issue. There have been horrible acts committed on both sides and there are good and bad people on both sides. Israel has the upper hand and so has the greater responsibility to initiate peace, yes. I agree. I also agree with the earlier statements by Barbara and others that it's more important to deal with the here and now, where to go to accomplish peace and a healthy, productive, independent state for Palestinians, than it is to seek revenge. Palestinians must learn to forgive the Israeli military for destroying their homes and killing their sons and daughters, and Israelis must learn to forgive Hamas for the suicide bombings and rocket attacks that have killed their sons and daughters. If this does not happen, there will NEVER be peace there, and future generations of sons and daughters on both sides will be condemned to lives of violence, misery and heartache, which will, as it has been, be worse for the Palestinians. If this can be achieved, I have no doubt that considerable sums of international monetary aid will help build or rebuild Palestinian homes, hospitals and schools as well as the rest of the infrastructure. Heck, I'll go there and pick up a hammer myself.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 1:59 pm
Thomas I would like to commend you for a well thought out and passionate response when certain people use "Genocide" or compare Israel to the Nazi's. I would like to recommend to these people to read 2 books on the rise of Nazism. 1) "The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" by Willism L. Shirer 2) "The Third Reich A New History" by Michael Burleigh. If one has actually taken some time to understand how the Nazi's came to power, what they did when in power and how they maintained that power one could see this comparison is ludicrous. It's almost like saying that the Nazi's used guns and Israel used guns so they're the same. If one wants to draw a parallel of the absurd one can find commonalities everywhere. Commonality does not necessarily make things comparably equal. In fact there is much more in common between Hamas and Nazism. Hamas states that ones loyalty to the cause is secondary to the individual or their life. Hamas in there charter calls for the death for all Jews as did Mein Kampf. Hamas came to power in an election as the Nazi's did and deposed the PA as the Nazi's did to the Wiemar Republic. There is no freedom of the press in Gaza nor freedom to dissent. There is no equal rights for women in Gaza as demonstrated by the continuing practice of "Honor Killing" of women. Let's look at one other comparison laid out by Burleigh which is the use of religion or pseudo religion in political movements.

Excerpts from;
The Third Reich A New History
By Michael Burliegh
Published 2000 by
Hill and Wang

Introduction P.6

“Viewing political movements as pseudo or substitute religions, with eclectic liturgies, ersatz theologies, vices and virtues, has a history that is worth recounting. Much earlier, Tocqueville, with whom we began, explicitly compared the French Revolution to a ‘religious revival’, calling it a ‘species of religion’, which ‘like Islam [has] overrun the whole world with it’s apostles, militants and martyrs’. For opposed reasons, Robespierre agreed. When seeking to insulate the Revolution from skeptics and mortality of it’s own, he wrote ‘What silences or replaces this pernicious instinct [of skepticism] and what makes good the insufficiency of human authority, is the religious instinct which imprints upon our souls the idea of a sanction given to the moral precepts by a power that is higher than man. This was not a cynical ploy to mobilize emotions and enthusiasms that politics could not reach, still less the usurpation of sacred language and rites to heighten feeling. For these devices and tricks would be unremarkable, given that preachiness and sententious are common to some advanced democracies as well as dictatorships. Rather, it reflected the belief that providence had sanctified a specific social order through which alone happiness would reign on earth. Anyone who opposed this belief was not only in error, but part of a demonic conspiracy a conviction whose origins go back to the earliest conflicts within, and between, Judaism and Christianity, when Satan himself was transformed from an angel who tested mankind by throwing obstacles in their path into an embodiment of evil, lurking behind any manifestation of religious heterodoxy. Opponents were not simply misguided, and hence amenable to persuasion, but fit only for extinction, regardless of whether they had done anything other than to exist.”

If this comparison is so upsurd then why use it? The only thing that I can come up with that the people who write this or say it get some vicarious sick thrill comparing a "Jewish" State to the ultimate victimizer of the Jews. On almost any level this comparison is ridiculous, spiteful, hateful and possibly racist as no one compares Israel to Sudan, Darfur, Bosnia, Cambodia and Armenia. The reason for this sick insensitive comparison is to hurt and is venomous in it's hate.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 2:23 pm
Not at all Thomas if you read my earlier posts you would have noticed I draw a distinction between Zionists and Jews.
I was raised in a Jewish neighbourhood in Britain and for 6 months of my life lived with a Jewish family; I am most certainly not anti-semetic, however that is a redundant term in this conflict as Arabs are also Semites.
The problem is Thomas that many Jews like many of those of the Islamic faith say they are opposed to acts of terror and violence carried out in their name and do not support the twisting of their tenets by the fundamentalists, but rarely do we hear them condemn the outrages conducted by their own faction against the innocent civilians of the opposing side.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 2:27 pm
Innocent people are dying David R.; who cares how it's done. Gun, bomb or oven. There is no moral highground for you here either.
KIllers are killers "Kosher" or not.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 2:35 pm
I would say that people are dying on both sides, so, let's figure out how to work this out. Do you really believe there is no moral difference between "the ovens" and war? Why bother having war crimes as they are all equal?

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:08 pm
"There has not been on this earth, a more horrific act of mass murder than the holocaust"

Really?? What about the genocide of the Indigenous Peoples in America? The populations were reduced from tens of millions to a few hundred thousands in a relatively short time (relatively short compared to the history of mankind and the history of the Indigenous Peoples).

The largest genocide in the history of mankind!!!

How easily and conveniently you've just brushed millions and millions of deaths under the carpet of hypocrisy!

Oh, while we're at it, why don't you ask how most Native Americans feel about the atrocities committed against the Palestinians? As a matter of fact, all the Indigenous activists I know would tell you that Israel has been committing a genocide against the Palestinians. They have clearly expressed their support for the population of Gaza and their outrage at all the genocidal tactics used by Israel against them.

I think that if someone knows exactly about genocides, it is the Indigenous peoples whose ancestors have been murdered and exterminated by millions, for centuries; they still have to live with the consequences of genocide and still have to fight for the survival of their youth, their cultures and their future.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:09 pm
You cannot currently send a star to John because you have done so within the
last week. But you deserve lots of green stars John! :)

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:10 pm
Vicarious sick thrill indeed. It's the only problem I see in this movement.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:26 pm
David R. I said that the manner of the deaths are irrelevant; the killing of innocent civilians is a war crime, end of story there can be no justification however hard you try.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:41 pm


The similarities I see in the atrocities (genocide) committed by the Nazis against the Jews, and the atrocities (genocide) committed by Israel against the Palestinians:

Mass murder, slaughters: merciless killings of helpless babies, children, women, pregnant women, elders, men and teenagers. Wiping out entire families in just seconds (thus preventing the birth of all the descendants they could have had later). Mental, emotional and physical torture of innocent civilians, often leading to death. Destroying the homes and belongings of innocent civilians; taking away their lands; separating families; starving the population by destroying or withholding their food, denying them the right to enough clean water; taking away the hopes and future of the youth; keeping hundreds of thousands of people in a concentration camp; forcing them to face daily a separation wall; preventing humanitarian help to reach them, blocking medications and refusing medical care in numerous cases; countless cases of arbitrary and extended detention for political prisoners; trying out new deadly chemical substances (in weapons) on civilians who have nowhere to run. Taking HOPE away from entire generations of young people and children.

All this while claiming it is only with the best of intentions and for the best of reasons.

All this while trying to justify murder and oppression, and to manipulate other peoples' brains into thinking it is the right thing to do.

Here's a difference: the genocide against the Palestinians has been taking place in
their homes on their own land, while the genocide of the Jews mostly
took place away from their homes.

-------------------------------

Thank goodness there are a lot of Jews who disagree with the actions of Israel, and who support the Palestinians. They know a genocide when they see one.They have my utmost respect and admiration. Are they anti-semite? Certainly not. They are decent and honorable, unlike those who disagree with them and insist that "Israel is right, Israel is the victim".

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:46 pm
I am really sad to report that my country condemned a report that found fault on both sides. Justice Goldstone was selected because he is a Jew, so there could be no accusations that the person who wrote it was prejudiced.
U.N. Affirms Goldstone Report, Canada votes against it
A 575-page blistering report by Justice Richard Goldstone detailing war crimes in Gaza last December is refusing to die despite an aggressive Israeli smear campaign to kill it.

The report, which was favourably voted by the 47-member Human Rights Council in Geneva last month, received overwhelming support Thursday in the 192-member General Assembly.

The vote was 114 in favour and 18 against, with 44 abstentions.

The 18 countries that voted against the resolution included the United States, Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Israel. MORE....http://yahyaottawa.blogspot.com/2009/11/un-affirms-goldstone-report-canada.html

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:47 pm
"War is so unjust and ugly that all who wage it must try to stifle the voice of conscience within themselves" -Leo Tolstoy

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 3:52 pm
Back to the Goldstone Fact Finding mission;

Robert L. Bernstein, the former president and chief executive of Random House, was the chairman of Human Rights Watch from 1978 to 1998. Here are some excerpts in an interview with a yet to be published interview with M'ariv said;

Goldstone Excerpts from M'Ariv

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH FOUNDER ROBERT BERNSTEIN’S INTERVIEW IN MA’ARIV

This is a follow-up to the dispatch containing Human Rights Watch founder Robert Bernstein’s attacks on HRW:

Bernstein has given an interview to the Israeli paper Ma’ariv, due to be published in Hebrew shortly. Below are Bernstein’s original answers in English to Ma’ariv’s questions, which Bernstein has supplied to me through an intermediary.

MA’ARIV: Why did you write your op-ed for The New York Times? What was the “straw that broke the camel’s back” from your point of view?

BERNSTEIN: Actually it has been brewing for a long time. I had been trying to do a long piece because many of my views about human rights in the Middle East are different from those now being expressed by Human Rights Watch. The Goldstone Report made me feel I should get something out, so I wrote The New York Times op-ed piece.

MA’ARIV: What was your vision when you founded Human Rights Watch and has the organization followed your vision in the recent years?

BERNSTEIN: My vision, I should say our vision because it was supported by a wonderful board, was to go into closed societies and try and help people in those societies who wanted free speech.

I was a book publisher so that was an especially important principle to me and it’s a key part of the Declaration of Human Rights. But, of course, other basic human rights are also vitally important: freedom of religion and equal rights for women, to name just two.

When governments of closed societies asked us what we were doing about our own country we would explain that the United States had many faults but because we were an open society we had many organizations and other ways to try and bring change. But after a while we decided we would do some work in the United States but try to not replicate what was being done by others.

I also believe there can be times to do some work in open societies but, now focus is on the Middle East. I think Israel is a country where most people believe in human rights. But at this time many Israelis, and I share their view, do not believe that HRW in the issues it chooses, its tone, and even its interpretations of law are helping to bring Arabs and Israelis together.

I had a lot to learn when I began feeling uncomfortable with HRW positions on Israel-Palestine issues in 2005 and certainly still do have a lot to learn, but almost from the beginning HRW has cast me as pro-Israel. I think that is the easiest thing to do – say someone is pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian. I like to think I am pro-human rights. Now that I have stated publicly, very sadly incidentally, that I am in disagreement with HRW, this will play out and others can decide if my views make sense.

“HRW THINK THEY ARE GOD”

MA’ARIV: You said that you are amazed by the reaction, from general people and mostly from people inside the HRW. Can you explain? You said, “They think they are God” – off the record.

BERNSTEIN: I was amazed and encouraged by the reaction to my op-ed. Because so many of the positive comments have come, not from those considered to be hard liners but from people who think a lot about human rights, I have been particularly encouraged.

MA’ARIV: What do you think about the Goldstone report? Is it part of the big problem you were talking about? And if so, why do Goldstone, and other human rights organizations, focus mostly on Israel?

BERNSTEIN: I think the Goldstone Report is deeply flawed. I was surprised Judge Goldstone, who I know and admired, took the job. He had to head a commission created by the United Nations Human Rights Council, which I think any fair-minded person would say had to clean up itself before it dared to criticize anything.

When I read Judge Goldstone’s op-ed in the September 17 issue of The New York Times and he said “While Israel has begun investigating into alleged violations they are unlikely to be serious and objective” I felt he was just “judging” too much.

MA’ARIV: What do you think should be Israel’s response to the Goldstone report as well as to some of the HRW reports?

BERNSTEIN: I can’t tell Israel what to do. I do not think any country would want to put up with a war of attrition, which can explode into real war any time. However I certainly don’t know the best way to stop it. I fault HRW for not taking a position on the war. The fact that Hamas, Hizbullah and Iran have declared it is their intention to try and wipe out Israel and all Jews seems to me, to be incitement to genocide, especially when it is backed by rocket attacks.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 4:29 pm
"merciless killings of helpless babies, children, women, pregnant women, elders"

And it's your view Brigitte that Israel is doing this on purpose? Hamas launches its attacks from people's back yards, so how is Israel to destroy their rockets, launchers and mortars without civilian casualties? It seems to me you're trying to promote this twisted view of Israelis as bloodthirsty demons who target babies and children......it's Hamas that targets civilians on purpose.

Your comment about native Americans is a good one, but I cannot take seriously a person or the writings of a person who refers to this situation as "genocide".

"Thank goodness there are a lot of Jews who disagree with the actions of Israel, and who support the Palestinians. They know a genocide when they see one."

You go and try to find Jews that will agree this is genocide. Good luck!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 4:48 pm
I think this is worth listening to!
http://www.videosift.com/video/UK-Jewish-MP-Israel-acting-like-Nazis-in-Gaza

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 3:01 am
"And it's your view Brigitte that Israel is doing this on purpose? "

YES! You may just want to downsize it all and call all the dead Palestinian children, women and men "collateral damage", but it's a fact that Israel has the latest (very expensive) weapon technology, and claims to have been using high precision weapons. So.... are you saying that the Israeli army can't aim properly? If they can't aim properly they should resign!!!

And what about all the civilians that were shot by Israeli soldiers in the streets and in their homes? Where they all shot by mistake?

What about the Israel soldiers who've been buying and wearing Tshirts showing pregnant women and babies to be used as targets? Pregnant women and children are the symbols of the future of a nation.

I can't see any difference between the Israeli military and the US 7th Cavalry who charged against Indigenous women, children and elders. Their attacks were unwarranted, unacceptable, cowardly and all they left behind were dead bodies of innocent human beings, mutilated bodies and traumatized, grieving survivors.

I do believe that for a very long time, Israel's project & goal has been to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible, and to break the spirits of the remaining Palestinians.

I am certain that if it hadn't be for the international outcry, they would have killed even more Palestinians than they have, destroyed even more of their homes and taken more of their land, if not all of it.

WAR CRIMES. GENOCIDE. These are certainly the proper words to use. As for the Goldstone report, opposing it or trying to bury it... is not any better than having trying to stop the Nuremberg trials.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 7:40 am
@ Thomas, one may easily find Jews who believe it's genocide, or at the very least, ethnic cleansing, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, ready?

Amy Goodman
Noam Chomsky
Norman Finkelstein

also Jewish human rights groups around the world, and Rabbis, too, who are against the illegal occupation.

It baffles me as to why you would think there are no persons of Jewish faith or heritage who feel that it is wrong, what Israel is doing. How odd.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 7:45 am
Justice Goldstone is Jewish, weren't you aware?

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 10:36 am
I say you are clear , that is why I do not support the Isrealy barberic act in Gaza against the Pelstinians.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 2:50 pm
There are things Thomas you are not aware of. You really need to see with your own eyes what has being going on inside occupied Palestine.(meaning post 67) most of the people here have seen directly or indirectly thats is why they cannot understand your support. please see with your own eyes both sides of the wall.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 9:03 pm
"Israel has the latest (very expensive) weapon technology, and claims to have been using high precision weapons. So.... are you saying that the Israeli army can't aim properly?"

They aim them just fine. when a precision guided weapon hits its target, a magical little robot doesn't pop out and kill just the soldiers, a large warhead explodes and kills whatever's near it. If Israel drops a laser guided bomb on a rocket launcher and kids are playing on the launcher, they're killed (and this has happened). The alternative to precision guided weapons is carpet bombing in which many tons of "dumb" bombs are used to destroy everything in sight. They cost a small fraction of precision guided weapons so Israel using multi-million dollar precision weapons instead is done to minimize civilian casualties. During WW2, America's bomber pilots dropped many many tons of dumb bombs and fire bombs on German cities. Many of these cities had no strategic targets, such as Dresden, which was firebombed so severely the streets themselves burned. Many thousands of civilian men, women, children and babies were killed. Was America guilty of genocide from these acts? No, they were fighting a war and did what they could to win. In wars people die and many of them are civilians. YOU TRY TO NAME THREE WARS IN WHICH CIVILIANS WERE NOT KILLED! I think you should learn more about how wars are fought Brigitte. They're not tidy affairs, they ALL cause misery and suffering.

"And what about all the civilians that were shot by Israeli soldiers in the streets and in their homes? Where they all shot by mistake?"

I wasn't there, were you? What I do know is Hamas fighters were dressing mostly in civilian clothes, so when Israeli soldiers were fighting in the area, yes I'm sure there were civilians accidentally shot. It happens to police in America all the time. They're after someone, they DON'T want to get killed and accidentally kill the wrong man. That's the nature of combat. It's how Amadou Diallo was killed, and although the police launched an investigation, none of the cops were accused of genocide.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 9:10 pm
"It baffles me as to why you would think there are no persons of Jewish faith or heritage who feel that it is wrong, what Israel is doing."

"most of the people here have seen directly or indirectly thats is why they cannot understand your support."

For the umpteenth time, I'm not supporting what's happening in Gaza, and I DO want peace and an independent homeland for Palestinians. I signed the petition supporting the investigation for God sake! It's always been my opinion that Israel needs to make a showing of good faith by offering up the olive branch. My point all along has been and continues to be that you will lose support for your cause when you compare your opposition to nazis and what is going on in Gaza is a WAR, not genocide. The use of these terms is nothing but an attempt to demonize Israel.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:04 am
"I think you should learn more about how wars are fought Brigitte. They're not tidy affairs, they ALL cause misery and suffering."

That's why I am against all wars. I'm against invading other countries. And when WAR CRIMES are committed, I firmly believe the perpetrators should be held accountable.

I also believe that hypocrisy can kill, literally. And refusing to see the similarities between the old Nazi regime and Israel's action is hypocrisy.

Earlier you mentioned relatives who were sent to an extermination camp. My grandfather was sent to one too, Buchenwald. He was killed there. A horrible slow death due to being part of "medical" experiments.
He had been arrested by the Gestapo twice for helping save the lives of British aviators and Jewish families.

That happened a long time before I was born so I never got to know my grandfather, but I am CERTAIN that he did not expect the descendants of the Jews who were saved to allow (directly or indirectly) the slaughter of helpless Palestinian families decades later.

And I am sure he could have seen the similarities between what was done to the Jews back then and what has been done to the Palestinian People. Certainly on a much smaller scale but still in a similar spirit of discrimination and extermination.

Good for you that you have signed the petition, but it's sad to see that you are still in denial regarding so many facts. Sad to see you continue to excuse or minimize the slaughter of innocent and helpless Palestinian civilians, by making excuses for the Israeli gov. and military, their choice of weapons and how they use them, regardless of how many innocents they have killed.

I can't believe you're sugarcoating the effects of the precision weapons. You have a family and children, right? if your loved ones were slaughtered in a military strike, would you care if it was a precision weapon or a dumb weapon? Would you not be consumed by pain and anger? How can you ask of the Palestinians to just forgive those who murdered their loved ones? (You said:" Palestinians must learn to forgive the Israeli military for destroying their homes and killing their sons and daughters".) Could you forgive?

I am against revenge, but not against resistance.

In conclusion: obviously no one was able to stop Israel in time (just like Hitler was stop way too late), but the least we can do as human beings is raise awareness about everything that has happened, and I mean as it has REALLY happened.

In the hope that it will NEVER happen again.

And that at least all those lives were not lost totally in vain.

But the Israeli and US governments don't seem to care. It seems they have become war machines that no one can stop.

That should be your main concern.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 7:52 am
The comparison of Israel to Nazism is ignorant as it is ludicrous. It is meant to compare the "Jewish " State to the largest victimizer of Jews the world has ever seen. Hitler killed over 50% of the entire population of Jews at that time. They killed close to 100% of all Greek Jews. If the message were just Genocide then why not say Pol Pot, or Sudan? Once again I say that the people saying this are getting some kind of vicarious thrill. On almost any level this comparison is ridiculous, spiteful, hateful and possibly racist as no one compares Israel to Sudan, Darfur, Bosnia, Cambodia and Armenia. The reason for this sick insensitive comparison is to hurt and is venomous in it's hate. The true purpose isn't about genocide because one could use lots of other examples for comparison but that wouldn't be as hateful.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 8:00 am
Excerpts from;

European Union Definition of Anti-semitism

http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/english/

WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

*

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
*

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
*

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
*

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

*

Thursday November 12, 2009, 11:10 am
Because the Jews suffered from the Hitler regime, this does not mean that Izrael must be aplaused for it's barberic measure in Gaza.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Thursday November 12, 2009, 11:18 am
What I am saying is that the present Izraeli government is moving in the wrong direction, which will never bring peace in the region.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Thursday November 12, 2009, 12:54 pm
And hopefully, with continued international pressure Hermon, Israel's policies will change. No one is applauding what the Israelis are doing, but David R. and I are pointing out that there has been an anti-Israel bias in the media for a long time. There are countless examples of this. Remember when an Israeli artillery shell supposedly hit a school which was a UN shelter and supposedly killed over a hundred civilians? Why did the media run with that story? Because they got it from "Palestinian sources" and never verified the story, as usual. Several days later, it was found out that the Israeli artillery shell landed OUTSIDE the compound housing the UN shelter, killed 17 Hamas fighters who were launching mortars at the Israeli army. NO ONE in the shelter was killed. When this truth was found out, the retractions printed, if at all, were in small type in the backs of the papers. Video media for the most part didn't even mention they were wrong. This is but one example of many on how Israel is being demonized by the media, there are hundreds of others, and the comparisons to nazis and the use of the word genocide are but a couple of them. Brigitte's opinion that Israeli soldiers are targeting women and children on purpose, and enjoy killing is a perfect example of the effect this is all having.

When these things happen, Israelis are forced to come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what they do, the media and the rest of thew world will always distort the truth at the very least, so changing their policies would likely be futile and ineffective. THAT'S why the demonization of Israel must stop. Israel was born out of result of human tragedy and whereas the Palestinian people are suffering horribly, Hamas and Hezbollah have stated time and time again that their goal is the complete destruction of Israel, that's what makes this a WAR.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 1:01 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Brigitte because you have done so within the last week.
I am against revenge, but not against resistance.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:17 pm


"My mother, my wife, and my three daughters all held white flags..."



Thursday, 05 February 2009 21:09 Last Updated on Thursday, 05 February 2009
21:19 Written by Sameh A. Habeeb and Janet Zimmerman

Innocence Lost
The story of Khaled Abd Rabo
Sameh is a twenty-three year old journalist based in the Gaza Strip. He has
been active for years to bring out the word of his people's suffering. Janet
is a twenty-one year old journalist and an American citizen, determined to
help after she had seen the horrendous crimes that perpetrated in Gaza by
Israel. She crossed thousands of miles to evaluate the situation with her
own eyes, her own mind, and her own heart. She stumbled across Sameh's work
online, and it was not long before they became friends and united in the
struggle to open the eyes of the world to the agonies in which they are so
often closed. One story that caught their attention was located in the
eastern Gaza Strip. It is an account of the personal catastrophe of Khaled
Abd Rabo.

We began our journey and were barely able to reach the town of Abd Rabo. As
we drove along, our car dipped to the right and to the left. The ground was
rutted from the holes that the Israelis tore into the streets with their
bombs, their bulldozing, and their fires. The land was also wounded. A once
lush and tranquil neighborhood had been transformed into hell on earth. Our
eyes were filled with nothing but devastation, and masses of people covered
the place like flies.

Our car came to a halt and we walked down the street to Khaled's shattered
home. And there was Khaled himself, sitting in the rubble of what was once a
happier time.

"This house used to have four floors, and a nice garden. It brought us peace
and tranquility," he began to tell us. "The Israeli army came to this house
many times before, but the last was in March of 2008."

He explains how they invaded his home and investigated him and his family.
"They found nothing. I am a police officer in the Ramallah government; I
have nothing to do with Hamas.

"That day when they left us, they did not take anything or harm anyone," he
continued. "I remember it was 12:50pm on the fourth day of the military
ground invasion when the army took control of the region. A real battlefield
was born and thousands of people were trapped. Nobody could leave due to the
excessive fire from the Israelis, and the soldiers kept on coming, and
coming, and coming.

"And then the tanks came. One of them was based only meters away from my
house. There were twenty-five of us, and we were all told to leave," he said
as his voice trembled and he began to cry. "The soldiers were eating chips
and chocolate, and they were smiling when they killed my daughters.

"My mother, my wife, and my three daughters all held white flags when they
tried to leave the house. We saw two of the soldiers get out of their tank,
and we told them how we wanted to leave. We waited and waited for their
response but were given no answer. Then, to our own surprise, a third
soldier emerged and he opened fire on the children with insanity.

"Souad was only seven years old, Summer was three, and Amal was of only two
years. My mother was shot as well, and I watched all that I loved fall to
the ground. I screamed for them to stop! I ran into the house to call civil
defense, ambulances, anyone who could help.

"For one hour the injured were bleeding, and two of my daughters were killed
despite the so called ceasefire. No help was able to come to us in time. One
of the ambulances tried, but the Israeli soldiers stopped the paramedic and
forced him to remove his clothing. They then bombed the ambulance and it was
buried in rubble. The paramedic fled naked while their fire surrounded him.

"I left the house with some of my family members," Khaled continued. "We
carried my mother in a crib. I held Summer in my arms, and she was still
breathing despite her gaping spinal wound. I thought to myself, 'no way can
I leave little Summer, even if I end up dead like my other two daughters.' I
passed her to my brother and then took the body of Souad in my hands, and my
wife held Amal as we left the house.

"The soldiers were firing uncontrollably above their heads and everywhere
around them. Many of the houses were demolished by their tanks. As we
crossed one of the roads, there was a man and he tried to save us but the
snipers saw this and killed both him and his horse. When we finally reached
the town of Jabaliya, we saw that everyone had brought all of the injured
citizens here. So shocked were we by what we saw that we threw our bodies to
the ground, and for one hour we remained there unable to fathom what has
become of our people."

We asked him why he thought they would kill his children. He replied, "I am
certain they were drunk, or were given orders to kill everyone including the
children. This was on Harets a couple of days ago, that many Israeli rabbis
were giving orders to leave no one alive," he explained. "I don't know why
my daughters were killed. They never committed any crimes, they were
children! They did not fire rockets at Israel, although Israel claims to
only aim at those who have first fired at them.

"We are a very peaceful people, we have nothing to do with fighting or
rockets. I know if I go to the court about what has happened the Israeli
army would create thousands of pretexts to make their soldiers appear
innocent. They have done this with many other cases before," he went on.

"It was not a war between two immense armies. Obviously, it was a war
between civilians and the fourth largest army in the world: Israel. But they
do not call it a war. They call it an operation."

An operation where tens of thousands of Gazans were either killed or
psychologically and physically wounded. The devastation did not only effect
the people, but all you can imagine. Yet buildings can be repaired and the
land will grow again, but Khaled's mayhem will never be alleviated. He will
never hear the laughter of Saoud and Amal again, but he will hear the aching
cries of Summer. She is now paraplegic due to her injuries. The only thing
that functions is her mind. A mind that will forever be telling the
nightmare of what happened to her life. Even during her first interview in
the hospital, in every single detail, she narrated the story to Al-Jazeera
as Khaled did to us.

Photos of Khaled and the scene of the crime:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sameh.habeeb/StoryOfKhaledAbedRabuTheLostChildren#

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:18 pm
Children of Gaza

Stories of Those Who Died and the Trauma for Those Who Survived

By Rory McCarthy

Rory McCarthy reports from Gaza City on the individual stories of some
victims and the physical and psychological toll on an estimated 350,000
youngsters.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21836.htm

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:18 pm
Pictures Prove.

Be sure to look at all the photos. This is what Israel has been doing, with
the support of the USA and US tax payers' dollars.


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

THE GRANDCHILDREN OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS FROM WORLD WAR II ARE DOING TO THE
PALESTINIANS EXACTLY WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM BY NAZI GERMANY...


Warning: includes graphic photos.
--------------------------

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:20 pm

Gaza: 'I watched an Israeli soldier shoot dead my two little girls'

Grieving Palestinian father says children were killed after family obeyed
order from troops to leave Gaza home

By Donald Macintyre in Gaza City

January 21, 2009 "The Independent" -- -A Palestinian father has claimed that
he saw two of his young daughters shot dead and another critically injured
by an Israeli soldier who emerged from a stationary tank and opened fire as
the family obeyed an order from the Israeli forces to leave their home.

Khaled Abed Rabbo said Amal, aged two and Suad, seven, were killed by fire
from the soldier's semi-automatic rifle. His third daughter, Samer, four,
has been evacuated to intensive care in a Belgian hospital after suffering
critical spinal injuries which he said were inflicted in the attack early in
Israel's ground offensive.

Mr Abed Rabbo stood near the wreckage off his subsequently destroyed home on
the eastern edge of the northern Gaza town of Jabalya yesterday and
described how a tank had parked outside the building at 12.50pm on 7 January
and ordered the family in Arabic through a megaphone to leave building. He
said his 60-year-old mother had also been shot at as she left waving her
white headscarf with her son, daughter in law and her three grandchildren.

"Two soldiers were on the tank eating chips, then one man came out of the
tank with a rifle and started shooting the kids," Mr Abed Rabbo, who
receives a salary as a policeman from the Fatah-dominated Palestinian
Authority in Ramallah said. The family say they think the weapon used by the
soldier was an M16 and that the first to be shot was Amal. Mr Abed Rabbo
said that Suad was then shot with what he claimed were 12 bullets, and then
Samer.

The soldier who fired the rifle had what Mr Abed Rabbo thought were ringlets
visible below his helmet, he said. The small minority of ultra-Orthodox Jews
who serve in the army are in a unit which did not take part in the Gaza
offensive and only a very small number of settlers who also favour that
hairstyle serve in other units.

It has so far been impossible independently to verify Mr Abed Rabbo's claim
and the military said last night Israeli Defence Forces "does not target
civilians, only Hamas terrorists and infrastructure". It added: "The IDF is
investigating various claims made with regard to Operation Cast Lead and at
the end of its investigation will respond accordingly."

The district is named Abed Rabbo after the clan who live in most of it. The
dense concrete roof of the house now hangs at more at more than a 45-degree
angle, and at least three other substantial buildings have been flattened in
the agricultural, semi-rural immediate neighbourhood. Khaled Abed Rabbo said
that there had been a delay before the ambulance could reach the building
because the road from the west had been made impassable by the churning of
the tanks.

The soldiers had in the end let the family leave on foot, he said. He added
that they walked two kilometres before finding a vehicle to take them to
Kamal Adwan Hospital. He said: "I carried Suad, who was dead, my wife
carried Amal and my brother Ibrahim carried Samer."

He added: "We are not Hamas. My children were not Hamas. And if they were
going to shoot anyone it should have been me." He added: "I want the
international community and the International Red Cross to ask Israel why it
has done this to us. They talk about democracy but is it democracy to kill
children? What did the kids do to them? What did my house do to them? They
destroyed my life?

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:22 pm

"Children who are barely five-months old are being bombed by the Israeli
army."

Rana el-Hindi from Save the Children, speaking from inside the Gaza Strip,
told Al Jazeera children were suffering greatly from the Israeli
bombardment.

"In the last three days at least 19 children have been killed ... it's a
real concern for all organisations here," she said.

She said the number of children being hospitalised was increasing "day after
day".

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19446.htm
......

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:23 pm
No one is to blame for this but Israel.


Israeli Missiles Silence Baby's Laughter in Gaza

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19441.htm

By Sami Abu Salem writing from the occupied Gaza Strip

29/02/08 "Electronic Intifada" -- - The innocent laughter of six-month-old
baby Mohammed al-Bor'i stopped forever on Wednesday night when shrapnel from
an Israeli missile and rubble struck the infant in the head, minutes after
he enjoyed his last meal.

"The baby sucked milk, he was playing with his mother; I was reading a book
when a rocket hit the Ministry of Interior," said Nasser al-Bor'i, the
baby's father.

With the first missile, the electricity was cut and darkness filled the
ill-fated house. Stones and pieces of the asbestos ceiling fell onto the
head of the laughing child. The explosions continued as two other missiles
hit the building.

"I looked for my baby in the darkness between the rubble; I did not know
where he was. When he cried once I followed the direction of his voice,"
Nasser al-Bor'i said. "My hands touched my baby who was breathing hard; I
felt warm liquid on my two hands and realized that he was wounded."

Al-Bor'i carried his son to the nearby Shifa Hospital as the blood streamed
from his tiny head. In the hospital, al-Bor'i became hysterical when he
realized that his only child had been killed.

Tears poured from al-Bor'i's eyes when he saw Mohammed's shoes. "After five
years of treatment for sterility, [my wife and] I had a baby. I can't
imagine that I lost him in a second."

Toys, a plastic bike, a crib and clothes were covered by the heap of rubble
inside Mohammed's bedroom. Cutout magazine pictures of laughing babies
decorated the walls, a sad reminder of the joy lost in the strike.

Mohammed's mother sufered shock and fell unconscious when she realized that
the child had died. She laid on a hospital bed while her baby was in the
morgue. On Thursday morning she cried when she returned home from the
hospital to see Mohammed's empty crib.

Mohammed al-Bor'i was not the only child to be killed in the series of
Israeli air strikes across the Gaza strip on Wednesday. In the northern Gaza
Strip town of Jabalia, three other children, Anas al-Manama, 10, Bilal
Hijazi, 11, and Mohammed Hamada, 11, were also killed in an Israeli air
strike, Palestinian medical sources reported.

At least 19 Palestinian civilians and militants were killed and dozens
wounded by the continuing Israeli air strikes on Gaza in the last two days.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:24 pm
Human Rights Watch Says Human Rights Belong to All People
2009 October 22
by Max Ajl

As present chairwoman and past chairman of the board of Human Rights Watch,
we were saddened to see Robert L. Bernstein argue that Israel should be
judged by a different human rights standard than the rest of the world.

Mr. Bernstein, as a founder of Human Rights Watch, has had ample access over
the years to make his argument that we should not be reporting on Israeli
conduct because Israel is a democracy. As recently as April, the full board
of directors heard - and rejected - Mr. Bernstein's proposal that Human
Rights Watch should focus our research and reporting resources on closed
societies.

After careful consideration, we and other members of our board stressed that
democracies, too, commit serious abuses, with the United States' "war on
terrorism" and Israel's conduct in Gaza just the latest examples. We
reaffirmed our conviction that it is essential to hold Israel to the same
international human rights standards as other countries. To do otherwise
would be a violation of our core principle that human rights are universal.

As long as open societies commit human rights abuses, Human Rights Watch has
a vital role to play in documenting those violations and advocating to bring
them to an end.

Jane Olson
Jonathan Fanton
New York, Oct. 20, 2009
===========

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:25 pm
Self-defence Stories from Gaza

By Paul J. Balles

October 26, 2009 "Information Clearing House" -- According to Amnesty
International, some 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the 22-day Israeli
offensive between 27 December 2008 and 17 January 2009, which agrees broadly
with Palestinian figures. More than 900 of these were civilians, including
300 children and 115 women.

Two-year old Amal Abed Rabbo, one of the 300 children casualties, died in an
Israeli attack outside her house in the village of Izbit Abed Rabbo, Gaza,
on 7 January 2009.

The UN Human Rights Council's Goldstone report called Israel's military
assault on Gaza "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish,
humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local
economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon
it an ever-increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability".

Gabriela Shalev, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, quickly
rejected the report, saying it failed to take into account that the
operation was in "self-defence".

Amira Qirm lay on a hospital bed with her right leg in plaster, and held
together by a line of steel pins dug deep into her skin. For several days
after her operation Amira, 15, was unable to speak, and even now talks only
in a low whisper.

Amira watched her father die in the street outside their home in Gaza, then
heard another shell land and kill her brother Ala'a, 14, and her sister
Ismat, 16; and then she spent three days alone, injured and semi-conscious,
trying to stay alive in a neighbour's abandoned house.

Israel's argument: the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and
therefore an act of self-defence.

Muhammad Balousha, aged two, waited constantly by the door listening
carefully to the sounds around him, hoping to recognize the sounds of his
five sisters coming home. He does not know that, when on that one night they
said goodnight and went to sleep, it was forever.

On the Israeli side 13 died in this conflict, three of them civilians. In
total in the past eight years, 20 people in Israel have died from rocket and
mortar attacks launched by militants in Gaza.

Abdul Rahim Abu Halima, 14, was killed when a white phosphorous artillery
shell hit his home on 4 January. He died with two of his brothers, Zayed,
eight, and Hamza, six, his sister Shahed, who was 15 months old, and their
father Saadallah, 45.

Anne Bayefsky, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute writes, in The
Jerusalem Post that the charges of human rights violations are just more of
"that same old bash-Israel agenda".

A boy from the Abu Halima family lost his father, three brothers and an
infant sister in a horrific fire after an Israeli phosphorus shell hit the
house.

Israeli Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi has difficulty believing the soldiers'
testimonies that they intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians, because
the Israel Defence Force is a "moral army".

A Palestinian ambulance arrives with a patient who is barely 10 years old
and his head is wrapped in a bandage and he is unconscious and on manual
ventilation. He was shot in the head by Israeli sniper fire.

Prime Minister Netanyahu says Israeli forces were exercising their right to
self-defence.

Neurosurgeon Dr Ahmed Yaha catalogued horrific injuries such as babies being
shot in the head, babies with broken spines due to being thrown by shell
blasts. People burned to the bone by white phosphorus, nail bombs causing
brutal injuries and a new phenomena, micro-pellets, that leave no entry
wound but cause fatal internal injuries.

In self-defence?

Paul J. Balles is a retired American university professor and freelance
writer who has lived in the Middle East for many years. For more
information, see http://www.pballes.com. This article was first published at
Redress Information & Analysis

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23815.htm

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:31 pm
I will repeat the words of Rabbi Rosen one more time on this thread:

"As a rabbi, this grieves me deeply. For, painful as it is for us to admit, Israel's behavior in Gaza has consistently betrayed our shared Jewish ethical legacy.

This was true before the war, when the Israeli blockade denied Palestinians basic necessities; it was true during the war, when Israel responded with disproportionate force to Hamas rockets; and it has been true since the war.”

Thursday November 12, 2009, 3:35 pm

And I will also repost again here the words of Gilad Atzmon who was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military (please notice he used the word holocaust):

"I would maintain that in fact we are the witnesses of an ongoing holocaust in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. We also witness Israel preparing itself to nuke Iran in the name of Jewish history and the Holocaust in particular. In front of our eyes we see the emergence of evil on a colossal magnitude, and we are somehow paralyzed by a historical chapter that, in comparison to contemporary Israeli crimes, has less and less significance or relevance.

Rather than being subject to an idolatry of an untouchable past, we better start to be concerned with the HERE and NOW, with the genocides that are committed in our names and under our nose by Israel and its supporters around the world."


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23904.htm

Thursday November 12, 2009, 4:03 pm
War sucks and children and women get caught in the middle. That doesn't mean genocide. More Palestinians were killed by the Jordanians during "Black September", 20-30,000, than by Israelis in all the wars combined. The fire bombing of Dresden killed over 100,000. Israel is doing an incredibly shitty job of genocide since in 1948 there were maybe 500,000 and today 4,000,000. 14,000, 2000 is not a holocaust and isn't genocide. They are emotionally charged words meant to make a group seem victimized. It' almost infantile with, " our genocide is worse than yours" crap. Because one can make comparisons on the most minute surface level does not make Israel into a Nazi regime that conquered an entire continent throwing the world into a war that cost the lives of 50 million people. There are no trains systematically transporting people to death camps, there is no control of the press, there is no statements stating the goal is the elimination of the Palestinian people. The comparisons are ludicrous and racist from start to finish. You can throw out all the quotes in the world and it would still be a ludicrous comparison. People dying and writing sad stories is not Genocide, it not a holocaust and there are no Nazi's except maybe Hamas and Hizbullah who state openly there desire to kill all Jews. I guess statements like that don't seem to bother you.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 4:08 pm
Correction
14,000, 2000 is not a holocaust and isn't genocide. 1,400 not 14,000

Thursday November 12, 2009, 5:04 pm
Denial, denial, denial...

and BTW, who started comparison here?

West Bank is de facto a concentration camp, press control is active, and there is no need to publicly declare the goal. Act speaks louder than words.

Stars for Brigitte

Thursday November 12, 2009, 5:08 pm
Why not call it indiscriminate mass murder?...Does the title matter?...The truth does.

Thursday November 12, 2009, 7:51 pm
Yes call it that but to call Israeli's Nazi's is ludicrous and racis!!!

Thursday November 12, 2009, 9:11 pm
Israeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews An Israeli rabbi has supported the murder of non-Jewish "babies" who pose a threat to Israel in his recently released book The King's Torah.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=110923§ionid=351020202

Friday November 13, 2009, 1:09 am
And David R, I really like your last post. I think it goes a long way in spelling out the difference between genocide and Gaza, especially your observation of the effect this conflict has had on the population numbers of Palestinians.

Friday November 13, 2009, 2:08 am
"Why not call it indiscriminate mass murder?...Does the title matter?...The truth does. "

Yes, the truth does indeed matter. I wonder how many of us have connections in Gaza or Israel deep enough to REALLY know the truth. Does the title matter? YES! The process of using specifically chosen words to demonize, dehumanize or create a public perception against ANY group of people is called propaganda. We all know who invented that, and how it's been used by fascist right-wingers in the U.S.A. David R. and I both believe the word genocide is a gross distortion of the situation in Gaza, though we both acknowledge (I think) that Israel needs to reexamine its policies and take strong steps to end the conflict.

The word genocide and the nazi comparisons are used with the intent to dehumanize a population of human beings with sons and daughters of their own. Israeli soldiers are comprised of every sub-sect of Israeli culture, as military service in Israel is mandatory. Among the entirety of the Israeli military, you will find recent high-school grads who would most definitely rather be doing something other than marching into hostile territory, young fathers and mothers, middle aged family men and women with children in or about to be in the military, loners, freaks, artists, musicians, would be capitalists, simple tradesmen, and very likely a number of scared or angry people, some of them likely racist against Arabs, some of them with family members or friends killed by suicide bombers or rocket attacks.

We here in the US have the same thing, though due to our country's policies, we end up with a disproportional number of poor people in our military. We send crazies into harms way. Remember Hadithah? Given the wide variety of people sent in on Operation Cast Lead Is it possible, no quite likely, that there were atrocities committed by IDF in Gaza, but I also believe many of the events we're screaming about were exaggerated or fabricated.

Although I've apparently been proved wrong about Jews not referring to IDF's behavior as nazi-like (though I still think this is uncommon), I still would indeed prefer you use just about any term other than genocide to describe Gaza. Call it indiscriminate mass murder if you like, I don't agree that the killing there is indiscriminate, but it still allows a lot more dignity into the discussion, and pays more respect to victims of real genocide.

Friday November 13, 2009, 2:21 am
"It' almost infantile with, " our genocide is worse than yours" crap."

Well David R, did you notice that this is what Thomas has been repeated all over the thread? he could be quoted numerous times supporting the "our genocide is worse than yours crap" but for the sake of brevity I'll just quote him once: "There has not been on this earth, a more horrific act of mass murder than the holocaust". So you may want to discuss this with him personally!

Also, who said that "Israeli's" are "Nazi's"?? No one here. The comparisons made are not between people or religions. They are made between actions, situations, and the mentality behind them. They have to do with decisions and actions by the Israeli government (& whoever hides behind them) and the Israeli military. And not necessarily the entire government or military as there are always individuals who disagree with the rest.
In the Israeli population there are many civilians and also soldiers who disagree with those actions and decisions. They certainly have nothing to do with a nazi mentality! And I have the utmost respect for them.

David B (my friend) - it is "indiscriminate mass murder" indeed but at the same time it is done with the purpose of weakening and slowly exterminating an entire nation. So it is not entirely indiscriminate.

Now to respond to just a few other points:

Yes of course there are still many Palestinians alive. But there are also many Native Americans still alive and yet no one can dispute the fact they have been the victim of a horrific genocide (the largest in the history of mankind, it should be added -not to draw comparisons but because it's true and should never be forgotten).

During that genocide, many Indigenous nations were totally exterminated and lost. Well, at a much smaller scale, entire Palestinian families have been wiped out, and together with them all the descendants they could have had. A lot of people may not care, but to the Palestinian population, the loss has been overwhelming; just like for the Iraqi population, or for the Jews with WWII, and so on.

It means that every survivor grieves and morns a very large, unbearable number of deaths in their families, neighbourhoods and communities. It means that the structure of the community is falling apart, and barely any chance is left for education, medical care, and so on. It means that the survivors in the youngest generations will forever bear the mark of the atrocities committed against their family and their people, they will have to live with the trauma and the nightmares for all their lives. (Just like the Jew survivors of WWII).

Look at the rates of suicide among Native American youths today and you will see why one might be worried about the future of the Palestinian children).

A genocide is not just determined by how many people were killed or by proportion but by the spirit in which it was done. It is also a matter of intention.

There are many ways of committing genocide, in addition to maiming and killing the innocent population. I 've already listed a number of them earlier on the thread.

I have never said -nor do I believe- that Jews are like Nazis. I respect the Jewish religion, culture and traditions, as I respect other religions and religious rights. They are part of our basic human rights! But I still have the right to object to the actions of certain Jewish (and non-Jewish) people if their actions seem wrong to me, and I believe the Israeli government and military have committed horrific actions.

I have the right to comment on these actions and the mentality behind the actions, not just because of free speech but because it is my duty as a responsible human being who cares about justice and human rights.

It has nothing to do with racism or religious intolerance. (I was raised a catholic yet I totally condemn all the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church throughout history). It doesn't matter the religion, there will always be individuals and groups ready to abuse and exploit a spirituality in order to use it as a political tool for greed and power.

Some here don't like comparisons, but the Nazis thought they were the salt of the Earth... and Israel keeps repeating they are God's chosen people - I don't believe they mean it in a religious way, but in a political way, which is extremely dangerous. When a country starts believing they are superior to others, it can mean only trouble, and if they act on it, it means war, with all the horrendous consequences, and it can lead to genocide.

A life is a life, it doesn't matter what race or religion one is, so why does it always sound like the lives of the Palestinians are disposable while the lives of the Israeli should be protected at all costs??
Why does the life of an American seem to mean more than the life of an Iraqi or an Afghan?
And so on... even in a place like Care2....

And yes there will always be wars, unfortunately, but does it mean we must not condemn or try to stop those who commit crimes against humanity?

No. Our silence can only fuel the wars, indirectly but surely.

Friday November 13, 2009, 2:24 am


" [I]n such a world of conflict, a world of victims and executioners, it is the job of thinking people, not to be on the side of the executioners." - Albert Camus

Friday November 13, 2009, 6:55 am
...and when will you acknowledge the fact that Moslems have killed more Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon than all the Israeli wars combined? When will people stop using Nazi allusions by saying things like "West Bank is de facto a concentration camp, press control is active, and there is no need to publicly declare the goal. Act speaks louder than words"? Ask any survivor if the West Bank is like a concentration camp. Read about Naziism and learn. You will read things like when the Germans invaded Russia their plan was to starve to death 10 million Russians. When will people stop showing Israeli flags with swastikas in them?
Do I believe that the American Indian was a victim of systematic genocide? Of course I do. I believe that as much as I believe that the Australian aborigine were victims of genocide. In both of those cases the populations were reduced by a high percentages as opposed to an 8 fold increase in population. Numbers are critical in separating deaths and the nightmare and depravity that a state brought to a continent, whether that continent is Europe, North America or Australia. That's how we are able to describe a crime that is so far beyond the pale there are practically no words to describe it. The word Holocaust was invented for what the Nazi's did by one of the prosecutors.
Elie Wiesel cautioned about watering down the meaning of these words or else you make it easier for others to continue those paths.

Sunday November 15, 2009, 2:29 pm

http://www.amnestyusa.org/uploads/mde150152009en.pdf

Amnesty International Report on Operation Cast Lead

Sunday November 15, 2009, 2:54 pm
" When will people stop using Nazi allusions by saying things like "West Bank is de facto a concentration camp, press control is active, and there is no need to publicly declare the goal. Act speaks louder than words"? ..."
David, it was not Nazi allusion. Warsaw Ghetto would be an allusion. I described the situation in GAZA STRIP and WEST BANK as I understand it.
I don't have to READ about concentration camps. I had family members who survived, and I learned from them.

Sunday November 15, 2009, 3:07 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Jelica because you have done so within the last week.

Monday November 16, 2009, 6:44 am
Debate On The U.N. Gaza War Crimes Report

By Justice Richard Goldstone and former Israeli ambassador Dore Gold

Video

Packed house hears Justice Richard Goldstone, whose name has become synonymous with the U.N. Human Rights Council's fact-finding report on the conflict, engage in a public forum with a senior Israeli political figure over widespread criticism of the report among supporters of Israel.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23964.htm

Monday November 16, 2009, 7:02 am
"Holocaust" was not invented, it is the translation of the Greek word Olokavtoma, still used in modern Greek. OLO means complete, entire; kavtoma means burning. ENTIRE destruction by fire.

The word Genocide is appropriate to describe what has been done to the Palestinian People. Genocide (genoktonia in Greek) means the systematic destruction of a nation or tribe, regardless of whether there are survivors or not; there are many ways to commit genocide.

As for the word holocaust, it is accurate to describe the scenes in the Palestinian homes that were burned or blown up with the inhabitants inside - you may want to check out Amnesty International Report on the Cast Lead Operation above.

The word Genocide is NOT an exaggeration for what has been done to the Palestinians, and it is a relief to know that many feel the same around the world.


Oh, and isn't it interesting that in March 2008, Israel threatened to unleash 'holocaust' in Gaza?

Yes... Matan Vilnai, the Deputy Defence Minister used the word Holocaust as a threat against the Palestinian people. And it turned out it wasn't just a warning or a threat but also a prediction. Israel had planned everything. It wasn't about self defense but planned genocide.

Monday November 16, 2009, 1:32 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

"The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole." The Appeals Chamber goes into details of other cases and the opinions of respected commentators on the Genocide Convention to explain how they came to this conclusion.

The judges continue in paragraph 12, "The determination of when the targeted part is substantial enough to meet this requirement may involve a number of considerations. The numeric size of the targeted part of the group is the necessary and important starting point, though not in all cases the ending point of the inquiry. The number of individuals targeted should be evaluated not only in absolute terms, but also in relation to the overall size of the entire group. In addition to the numeric size of the targeted portion, its prominence within the group can be a useful consideration. If a specific part of the group is emblematic of the overall group, or is essential to its survival, that may support a finding that the part qualifies as substantial within the meaning of Article 4 [of the Tribunal's Statute]."

A group who's population has increased 8 fold in 50 years is not a victim of Genocide anyway you cut the cake. They have been tragic victims of war as Israeli's sitting on buses or pizza parlors or Olympic teams or kindergartens or a disabled senior citizen rolled off a steam ship are. Once again the Jordanians and the Lebanese have killed more Palestinians than the Israeli's have in all of the wars combined. The hypocrisy is the silence about that.

"I don't have to READ about concentration camps. I had family members who survived, and I learned from them. "
I do to but they didn't educate me to the rise of a police state, how they gained power, what they did to stay in power and how by this power death camps, (concentration camps), were set up, maintained with the approval of an advanced civilization. Maybe it would expand your knowledge by reading about it. I've been in the West Bank and there are no concentration camps in the west bank. It's certainly a dramatic term and will draw attention but it's another ludicrous and untrue comparison.

I won't defend what somebody says out of context but I will say it is a disgusting thing to say.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 12:48 am
"A group who's population has increased 8 fold in 50 years is not a victim of Genocide anyway you cut the cake."

Then you are simply denying the Genocide of Indigenous Peoples in America. Look up the statistics about the Native Americans to see how many millions they were before the arrival/invasion of the Europeans. Around the end of the 19th century only about 250 000 had survived in the USA. Now they are well over 2.500.000. Indigenous people tend to have a lot of children. Does it erase the largest genocide in the history of mankind?

With such a statement you have not only destroyed your credibility (or rather what was left of it after all the prejudiced comments you posted), but you have also managed to insult the memory of millions of innocent victims killed in genocides.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 10:15 am
Israel does not recognise any other genocide Brigitte including the Armenian genocide where well over one and a half million men, women and children were slaughtered by the Turks.
The reason for that we can only guess at, but perhaps they don't want the competition to unfocus the collective mind.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 11:02 am
Because Izrael does not recognize any Genocide , Izrael is slaughtering the Pelestinians in Gaza and in the Westbank. This must be stopped. If not, the jewish people and families will suffer.The present izraeli government in my oppinion is short minded
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 1:01 pm
Your accusation about me and the American Indian Genocide is wrong. I stated in an earlier post that I strongly believe in the American Indian Genocide as I do with the Aborigine Genocide in Australia where over 50% of there current prison inmates are indigenous aborigine. What do you think happened with there population during the time that this slaughter was going on? I guarantee that there was a great reduction in the American Indian population during the Western campaigns. It's over a 100 years since the last American Indian battle and since that time there population has increased. That wasn't the case during the western conquest. I guess it's important to you to make some connection between the Palestinians and the American Indian but there is none. The reason you won't find it is because there is no Palestinian Genocide. Once again I will point out that the Jordanians and the Lebanese have killed more Palestinians than Israel in all of the Arab-Israeli wars combined. I notice you have nothing to say about that.

As far as the Armenian genocide Israel tries to diplomatically tip toe around the issue to maintain relations with Turkey but ask the ADL, (Anti Defamation League), the same question and you will get a very different answer. I wonder what all of the Arab countries and OIC, (Organization of Islamic Countries), say about Armenia and Darfur?--Denial-Denial-Denial

Hermon;" Izrael is slaughtering the Pelestinians in Gaza and in the Westbank." What about the slaughter of Palestinians, (30,000), on "Black September" by the Jordanian legion?

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 1:18 pm
"Look up the statistics about the Native Americans to see how many millions they were before the arrival/invasion of the Europeans. Around the end of the 19th century only about 250 000 had survived in the USA."

Exactly my point!!! During a "genocide" there is a drastic reduction in numbers not an increase from 250,000 to 4 million. There wasn't ever a Palestinian Genocide!!! It's good propaganda, not true, but good propaganda.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 1:39 pm
I see David so the argument of your logic is because they're not currently on the endangered species list unlike Polar Bears it doesn't matter if you kill a few?

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 2:48 pm
"I guess it's important to you to make some connection between the Palestinians and the American Indian but there is none."

It is not about me, it is about how American Indians feel.

All the American Indian activists I know, and know of, including Wounded Knee II veterans, and from various Nations, have openly supported the Palestinians from the start, morally, spiritually and in some cases even materially. They know a genocide when they see one and that is how they view Israel's actions and systematic destruction of the People in Gaza.
They were very vocal during the bombings of Gaza and raised awareness constantly about the slaughters, the discrimination, they would even compare the attacks against the population with the raids and attacks against the Indigenous populations, which left countless women and children killed and mutilated.

The technology is certainly different today but the hatred and racism behind the attacks it is the same. And the motivation is the same: stealing land.

As we all know, the voices of Indigenous activists are usually ignored by the mainstream media or drowned in the US propaganda, but it does not mean they have no opinions or take no actions.

You say the last American Indian battle was a hundred years ago, wrong again. It was Wounded Knee II, in 1973 and it cost a number of lives.

And in many ways these nations carry on leading battles every day of their lives, not the classic "Indian wars" any more, but a daily struggle for thousands of families, for the activists, the incarcerated, the youth; legal battles, political battles; peaceful or desperate battles; battle against poverty, hunger, health issues, depression and so on. They fight for education, equal rights, religious rights, medical care, you name it and thank goodness they win a lot of battles.


What you also don't realize is that Indigenous activists (and non activists) realize that the genocide against the Indigenous populations is going on. It's never stopped. Even if there are no more slaughters and massacres of "Indian populations" in North America, (in South America they still happen), the genocide goes on in much more subtle ways. So subtle that most people are not aware. Even the average American doesn't want to know.

And the American Indian population may grow in numbers again but don't forget that there are less and less "full blood Indians"; Native languages continue to disappear one after the other, slowly and quietly whenever the last fluent speaker of a tribe dies; Native Americans are over represented in US prisons and get longer sentences; the rate of suicide for the Native youth is the highest in the world, or one of the highest. And so on. You may want to do your homework on this.

A lot of people say, "but they have casinos and they don't pay taxes and it's their fault, why don't they just get over that genocide and move on", and they even add racist comments... Don't get me started on that too, as the thread here is Israel's continuous attempts to commit a genocide against the Palestinians.

Israel's definition of genocide doesn't seem to match with the definition by the Armenian People or the Indigenous Peoples, but that is getting old. And it doesn't change the facts nor does it erase the crimes against humanity commented by Israel... and documented!!

When a nation survives a genocide you can't expect the survivors to just put it behind them and go on as if nothing had happened. Just as one can see the consequences of the genocide still affect most of the Indigenous peoples today, one can also see that they will affect the Palestinians for a long time and this is what Israel is hoping to achieve: break the spirits of the Palestinians, leave them weakened, hopeless, dreamless, and robbed of all they once had.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 4:12 pm
"David, Monday November 16, 2009, 1:32 pm

"I don't have to READ about concentration camps. I had family members who survived, and I learned from them. "
I do to but they didn't educate me to the rise of a police state, how they gained power, what they did to stay in power and how by this power death camps, (concentration camps), were set up, maintained with the approval of an advanced civilization. Maybe it would expand your knowledge by reading about it."
Don't worry, I have got a proper education in history and politics. I also read a lot. I don't rely on family stories alone.

Here, I would recommend an excellent book by Erich Fromm "Escape from Freedom", "... First published in Britain by Routledge and Kegan Paul in 1941, the book explores over a few short chapters humanity's shifting relationship with freedom, with particular regard to the personal consequences of its absence. Fromm distinguishes between ‘freedom from’ (negative freedom) and ‘freedom to’ (positive freedom)..."
"Fromm analyses the character of Nazi ideology and suggests that the psychological conditions of Germany after the first world war fed into a desire for some form of new order to restore the nation's pride. This came in the form of National Socialism and Fromm's interpretation of Mein Kampf suggests that Hitler had an authoritarian personality structure that not only made him want to rule over Germany in the name of a higher authority (the idea of a natural master race) but also made him an appealing prospect for an insecure working class that needed some sense of pride and certainty. Fromm suggests there is a propensity to submit to authoritarian regimes when nations experience negative freedom but he sounds a positive note when he claims that the work of cultural evolution hitherto cannot be undone and Nazism doesn’t provide a genuine union with the world."
"His second important work, Man for Himself: An Inquiry into the Psychology of Ethics, first published in 1947, continued and enriched the ideas of Escape from Freedom. Taken together, these books outlined Fromm's theory of human character, which was a natural outgrowth of Fromm's theory of human nature. Fromm's most popular book was The Art of Loving, an international bestseller first published in 1956, which recapitulated and complemented the theoretical principles of human nature found in Escape from Freedom and Man for Himself—principles which were revisited in many of Fromm's other major works."

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 4:53 pm
"Then you are simply denying the Genocide of Indigenous Peoples in America. Look up the statistics about the Native Americans to see how many millions they were before the arrival/invasion of the Europeans. Around the end of the 19th century only about 250 000 had survived in the USA. Now they are well over 2.500.000. Indigenous people tend to have a lot of children. Does it erase the largest genocide in the history of mankind? "

Of course not, but it means the genocide ended since the end of the 18th century. If it hadn't, the numbers would have continued to decrease.

Tuesday November 17, 2009, 9:37 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Jelica because you have done so within the last week.

Wednesday November 18, 2009, 7:09 am
"it means the genocide ended since the end of the 18th century. If it hadn't, the numbers would have continued to decrease. "

No it doesn't. It means that after the end of the **19**th century, the full blast genocide was replaced by "subtle" genocidal tactics and it is much less effective but there is still an ongoing genocide.

Attempts to genocide are still based on the will to commit genocide.

No doubt that if there were only Indigenous nations living in the USA, the numbers of Indigenous deaths would not be so considerable, or even close. It's not a coincidence that they have the lowest life expectancy in the USA.

The majority of Americans including politicians do not care about the Native Americans (quite often they're not even named on official forms and have to check the box "Other"; in statistics they are often included in "Other" too.) They are remembered mostly when their traditions and spirituality can be exploited; or by the army which is always too happy to recruit new cannon fodder among minorities; or by the Justus system and prison corporations when it comes to filling up their ever growing facilities.

Anyway, It' s sad to see what some people can come up with, just to try and dismiss or cover up the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinian People!!!

Wednesday November 18, 2009, 4:24 pm
"Subtle genocide"? Please, there's nothing subtle about genocide.

"The majority of Americans including politicians do not care about the Native Americans"

No kidding, this doesn't mean genocide.

"Anyway, It' s sad to see what some people can come up with, just to try and dismiss or cover up the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinian People!!!"

Sure Brigitte, keep telling yourself that's what myself and David R. are doing. It's a lot easier to point your finger at someone with a viewpoint different from your own and say "you're trying to dismiss or excuse atrocities" than it is to open your mind to that different point of view. It would be even easier for myself and David R. to dismiss your obvious hatred of the IDF as antisemitic.

Wednesday November 18, 2009, 11:25 pm
I have been thinking about how I want to close out of this posting because I've pretty much said what I believe to be true. That is;
1) The Goldstone "inquisition" is horrendously biased
a) One of the Inquisitors had already declared Israel guilty publicly before she even began to investigate.
b) A second inquisitor is from a Muslim country with no diplomatic relations with Israel and who's UN rep has called Israel guilty of war crimes prior to the investigation.
c) The UNHRC has asked for special sessions against Israel 6 times and 4 times for the rest of the planet.
d) Hamas was only investigated to placate Judge Goldstone and the Hamas findings were excluded in the GA

2) I believe all comparisons of Israel to the Nazi's are ignorant, ludicrous and possibly racist as no one compares Israel to the Serbs or Pol Pot rather there is some weird thrill in comparing the "Jewish" state to the biggest victimizer of Jews the world has ever known. I know of no other case where the term "final solution" has ever been used. I believe that anyone who thinks this should read more about the rise of Nazism and I would suggest Shirer and Burliegh.

3) I think that using words like Holocaust or Genocide in speaking about Israel and it's history with the Arab nations and Palestinians is absurd. The Palestinian's population has increased 8 fold between 1948 and the present going from 250 thousand to 4 million. This would be the first genocide to increase population so drastically. If Israel were guilty of wanting to commit Genocide then they are doing an incredibly horrible job. I have stated multiple times that Jordan and Lebanon have killed more Palestinians than in all of the Arab-Israeli wars put together yet not one person here has chosen to reply about that.

Finally, I believe that people may be vehemently opposed to Israeli actions but it's people are not evil nor is it's government. It's government is democratic having a separation of powers between the Legislative, Judicial and Executive branches of government. There is also freedom of the press as demonstrated by the sheer numbers of foreign correspondents. There is freedom to dissent with groups like B'tesem vocalizing loudly and publicly there differences with the Israeli government.

I have no idea how American Indians were dragged into this because there is no comparison between the genocide perpetrated against them and the Palestinians, who have been victimized by both Israel and other Arab countries, but, certainly there has never been genocide.

Thursday November 19, 2009, 3:42 am
David R
you can close out of this posting whenever you want shouldn't you dedicate your own point of view.
1/c Yes The UNHRC has asked for special sessions against Israel 6 times and 4 times for the rest of the planet. Simply because what the Zionist state had committed , before and after 1948 and still committing is a crime against humanity and can't be compared with the Nazi and or any other criminal because her deeds exceeds them all.

YOU believe that people of the Zionist state are not evil nor its government.This is a JOKE and for sure you are kidding. The people of Israel have elected the extremists who believe in GREATER ISRAEL and encourage building more settlements on the Palestinian's stolen land pretending that it is the land og Israel and the Israeli borders extend to where ever an Israeli tank can reach.Pretending that they have historic right in all Palestine.

This may be the reason why American Indians were dragged into this. You may imagine a situation when American Indians would simply say that what is now USA is their land historically and start their own government then asking all non American Indians to leave their homes and land because less than only 300 years ago they were the owners of the land. The land at that time was not " RES NULLS". The land was inhabited by different Indian tribes who were expelled from their land exactly as the Zionism says about the land of the Palestinians.

I personally don't agree with many of what Hamas says, but remember Hamas was also democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinians. The Palestinians can also have a democratic government having a separation of powers between the Legislative, Judicial and Executive branches of government.

Thursday November 19, 2009, 4:14 am
Thomas S,
It the the first time hear about the fact that you and David R are IDF Fans. This explains it all. No more comment.
And you Brigitte Thanks for speaking up and unveiling the criminal acts of the Zionist state,its army and its huge efforts against Palestinians. You deserve a medal not a green star. Criminals must not be allowed to run away.They will be arrested and tried together with their supporters and FANS..

Thursday November 19, 2009, 5:50 am
"They will be arrested and tried together with their supporters and FANS"...

If only Abdessalam...Unfortunately I see this only as a dream that did not and will not happen...

The "game" is lost to greesd and the ensuing desired outcome of the super rich...The "settlements" will continue to expand until they overrun all into the Israeli controlled sea?...Who cwres?...The US apparently doesn't...

Is the "game" over yet? (I hope not, but why not?)

Power to the pervadors of profit...The US and or Israel?...

Thursday November 19, 2009, 7:29 am
"It would be even easier for myself and David R. to dismiss your obvious hatred of the IDF as antisemitic."

Ha ha:) This means that you are running out of ideas, as it is the ultimate pathetic argument of Israeli war crimes apologists/deniers. So pathetic that is not even an argument...!

Just a totally unfounded accusation. It's also a personal attack and a lie, but I couldn't care less. I am not antisemitic in the least. I will always defend the Jews when needed (not that they need my help), as I did again a few days ago on another thread when a guy stated "Jews are sick".

I support everyone's religious and spiritual rights whether they are Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. What I do not support is crimes against humanity and governments that not only occupy other countries but also slaughterthe innocent population and continuously use genocidal tactics against them.

Show me where I said "subtle genocide" cause I can't find it. I did use the terms more subtle ways and "subtle" genocidal tactics, which is quite different, and I used " " for a reason. Of course there's nothing subtle about a genocide but governments do have more or less subtle tactics when it comes to getting what they want.

If you have to object to words, why don't you object to the "holocaust" that the Israeli Defence minister had threatened to "unleash" against the Palestinians in 2008.

Well now we know that you are David R.'s spokesperson. As me if I care :P
And don't be surprised when I start ignoring you and your attacks.

Abdelssalam thank you for your kind words. Many thanks to you too. :)

Thursday November 19, 2009, 7:47 am

Those Dastardly Anti-Semites?

By Uri Avnery

Denial is the first refuge. There is no difference between the deniers of the Armenian genocide, the deniers of the annihilation of the Native Americans and the deniers of the atrocities of all wars.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23539.htm

September 19, 2009 "Information Clearing House" -- IS THERE no limit to the wiles of those dastardly anti-Semites?

Now they have decided to slander the Jews with another blood libel. Not the old accusation of slaughtering Christian children to use their blood for baking Passover matzoth, as in the past, but of the mass slaughter of women and children in Gaza.

And who did they put at the head of the commission which was charged with this task? Neither a British Holocaust-denier nor a German neo-Nazi, nor even an Iranian fanatic, but of all people a Jewish judge who bears the very Jewish name of Goldstone (originally Goldstein, of course). And not just a Jew with a Jewish name, but a Zionist, whose daughter, Nicole, is an enthusiastic Zionist who once “made Aliyah” and speaks fluent Hebrew. And not just a Jewish Zionist, but a South African who opposed apartheid and was appointed to the country’s Constitutional Court when that system was abolished.

All this in order to defame the most moral army in the world, fresh from waging the most just war in history!

Richard Goldstone is not the only Jew manipulated by the world-wide anti-Semitic conspiracy. Throughout the three weeks of the Gaza War, more than 10 thousand Israelis demonstrated against it again and again. They were photographed carrying signs saying “End the massacre in Gaza”, “Stop the war crimes”’ “Israel commits war crimes”, “Bombing civilians is a war crime”. They chanted in unison: “Olmert, Olmert, it is true – They’re waiting in The Hague for you!”

Who would have believed that there are so many anti-Semites in Israel?!

THE OFFICIAL Israeli reaction to the Goldstone report would have been amusing, if the matter had not been so grave.

Except for the “usual suspects” (Gideon Levy, Amira Hass and their ilk), the condemnation of the report was unanimous, total and extreme, from Shimon Peres, that advocate of every abomination, down to the last scribbler in the newspapers.
Nobody, but nobody, dealt with the subject itself. Nobody examined the detailed conclusions. With such an anti-Semitic smear, there is no need for that. Actually, there is no need to read the report at all.

The public, in all its diversity, stood up like one person, in order to rebuff the plot, as it has learned to do in the thousand years of pogroms, Spanish inquisition and Holocaust. A siege mentality, the ghetto mentality.
The instinctive reaction in such a situation is denial. It’s just not true. It never happened. It’s all a pack of lies.

By itself, that is a natural reaction. When a human being is faced with a situation which he cannot handle, denial is the first refuge. If things did not happen, there is no need to cope. Basically, there is no difference between the deniers of the Armenian genocide, the deniers of the annihilation of the Native Americans and the deniers of the atrocities of all wars.

From this point of view, it can be said that denial is almost “normal”. But with us it has been developed into an art form.

WE HAVE a special method: when something happens that we don’t want to confront, we direct the spotlight to one specific detail, something completely marginal, and begin to insist on it, debate it, examine it from all angles as if it were a matter of life and death.
[...]
This attitude was reinforced when, on the eve of the 1967 war, the UN troops in Sinai where precipitously withdrawn on the demand of Gamal Abd-al-Nasser. And, of course, by the UN resolution (later annulled) equating Zionism with racism.
Now this argument is raising its head again. The UN, it is being said, is anti-Israeli, which means (of course) anti-Semitic. Everyone who acts in the name of the UN is an Israel-hater. To hell with the UN. To hell with the Goldstone report.

That is, however, a woefully short-sighted policy. The general public throughout the world is hearing about the report and remembering the pictures they saw on their TV screens during the Gaza war. The UN enjoys much respect. In the wake of the “Molten Lead” operation, Israel’s standing in the world has been steadily going down, and this report will send it down even further. This will have practical consequences – political, military, economic and cultural. [...]

Thursday November 19, 2009, 12:39 pm
"1/c Yes The UNHRC has asked for special sessions against Israel 6 times and 4 times for the rest of the planet."

Yes, and the UNHRC is comprised of representatives of countries with appalling human rights records and so is not to be taken seriously.

"YOU believe that people of the Zionist state are not evil nor its government.This is a JOKE and for sure you are kidding. The people of Israel have elected the extremists who believe in GREATER ISRAEL"

There you go all, condemnation for the entire state of Israel and its people, NOT just the military or government.

"
Thursday November 19, 2009, 3:42 am
David R
you can close out of this posting whenever you want shouldn't you dedicate your own point of view.
1/c Yes The UNHRC has asked for special sessions against Israel 6 times and 4 times for the rest of the planet. Simply because what the Zionist state had committed , before and after 1948 and still committing is a crime against humanity and can't be compared with the Nazi and or any other criminal because her deeds exceeds them all.

YOU believe that people of the Zionist state are not evil nor its government.This is a JOKE and for sure you are kidding. The people of Israel have elected the extremists who believe in GREATER ISRAEL and encourage building more settlements on the Palestinian's stolen land pretending that it is the land og Israel and the Israeli borders extend to where ever an Israeli tank can reach.Pretending that they have historic right in all Palestine.

This may be the reason why American Indians were dragged into this. You may imagine a situation when American Indians would simply say that what is now USA is their land historically and start their own government then asking all non American Indians to leave their homes and land because less than only 300 years ago they were the owners of the land. The land at that time was not " RES NULLS". The land was inhabited by different Indian tribes who were expelled from their land exactly as the Zionism says about the land of the Palestinians.

I personally don't agree with many of what Hamas says, but remember Hamas was also democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinians"

By your own argument then, Abdessalam, since Israelis are responsible for the carnage because they elected their government, so too are Palestnians responsible for the carnage in Israel AND Gaza, because they democratically elected a terrorist group hell bent on the complete destruction of Israel. Yep, you said it, the Gazans brought this on themselves!

"It the the first time hear about the fact that you and David R are IDF Fans. This explains it all. No more comment. "

We never said we were "fans" of the IDF, but since the IDF is an army of the people, and it defended every Jew in Israel from annhilation at the hands of its hostile, invading Arab neighbors 3 times, and it defends Israel from the terrorist organizations Hamas and Hezzbola, and obliterated Saddam Hussein's attempt at a nuclear centrifuge, yep, count me a big fan. If any of you had a clue of what Hamas gets up to, you would be fans too.

Friday November 20, 2009, 1:29 am
THOMAS WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? Me? A FAN OF IDF? YOU MUST BE KIDDUNG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Israel was born to disappear unless she changed her Nazi attitude and do what is needed to prove that she is ready to live within its 1948 borders and evacuate Palestinians land for the Palestinians.

Friday November 20, 2009, 4:34 am
David B.
Never give up as long as the cause is worthy.People in that part of the world ( Middle East ) are very patient.I am one of them.We are ready to pay the price of freeing Palestine what ever this price is.If the Zionist state is ready for just and fair peace then it is ok.Let us make peace of brave people.I can't see a brave Israeli leader who have enough courage to tell his people that it is in the best interest of Israel to accept the peace initiative.Time goes,hatred grows unless there is a smart Israeli leader who can predict the future and recalls history.He will know pretty well that the CRUSADORS were defeated after around one hundred years of occupying Jerusalem and other parts of this region.WE NEVER GIVE UP.

Friday November 20, 2009, 7:06 am
The Israeli government must immediately stopp it's aggressive behavior against the Palestinians.Peace is vital. The creation of a Palestinian free State with Jerusalem as it's capital and beside the Israeli state with Telaviv as it's capital. The is the only acceptable solution.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Friday November 20, 2009, 11:34 am
Q) Why does the US and Israel wish to hide the Goldstone Report?

A) One supplied the weapons, the other used them.

Both are guilty of murder. (One directly, the other complicit)

I doubt that the American Indians had anything to do with this.

Have a nice day! :)

Friday November 20, 2009, 8:53 pm
“Every time I’m ready to get out they drag me back in again” Michael Corelone Godfather 3

Some of the comments I have just read are so far out I just had to respond.

1. I don’t have a spokesperson
2. Abdessalam Diab
Thursday November 19, 2009, 3:42 am
“David R Yes The UNHRC has asked for special sessions against Israel 6 times and 4 times for the rest of the planet. Simply because what the Zionist state had committed , before and after 1948 and still committing is a crime against humanity and can't be compared with the Nazi and or any other criminal because her deeds exceeds them all.”

a. 2 comments;
i. There was no Zionist state before 1948 and there never has been a Palestinian State, because Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank from 1948-1967. However there were Arab States.
1. Egypt
2. Jordan
3. Lebanon
4. Syria
5. Saudi Arabia
6. Libya
7. Iraq
ii. The day the British Mandate ended all seven of these states declared war on an hours old State of Israel. Israel had no army at that time but because of on going fighting between Arab irregulars, led by Hitler’s buddy, “The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem”, who openly called for the liquidation of all the Jews, they had irregulars. These irregulars some of whom were from the Haganna, Palmach, Irgun and the Stern Gang as well as survivors of the concentration camps, ( just freed from camps in Greece and Cyprus), fought off all 7 of these armies and “The Grand Mufti’s Storm Troopers”. Somehow those “damn” survivors just refused to lie down and die because they had already done that and were never going to do that again.
b. “…can't be compared with the Nazi and or any other criminal because her, (Israel), deeds exceeds them all.”
c. Israel was born to disappear unless she changed her Nazi attitude
i. If you actually think anything Israel has ever done even comes close to the slaughter of 50 million civilians and 14 million prisoners of “Death Camps” of which 6 million were Jews then you are truly a very, very ignorant man that must be going through life with blinders on and I have nothing but pity for you.
.
d. “YOU believe that people of the Zionist state are not evil nor its government. This is a JOKE and for sure you are kidding”
i. When you say the people of the Zionist State do you mean the Arab citizens, the Druze citizens, the Christian’s or do you believe that it’s only the Jews who are evil?
e. “I personally don't agree with many of what Hamas says, but remember Hamas was also democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinians”.
i. So was Hitler and he also had a manifesto, “Mien Kampf” calling for “Death to All Jews”.
1. Hamas Charter
For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.
2. The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
3. Article Twenty-Eight
Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.
f. “They will be arrested and tried together with their supporters and FANS” and from Davd B- “If only Abdessalam...Unfortunately I see this only as a dream that did not and will not happen”
i. Are they allowed to have judges who have actually not called them guilty before the trial?
ii. Are they allowed lawyers?
iii. Why bother with the formalities? Hang ‘em all!!!
3. David Buchan
Friday November 20, 2009, 11:34 am
Q) Why does the US and Israel wish to hide the Goldstone Report?

A) One supplied the weapons, the other used them.

Both are guilty of murder. (One directly, the other complicit)

I doubt that the American Indians had anything to do with this.

Have a nice day! :)
a. Let me help you here
i. The UNHRC had already determined Israel guilty before the investigation and initially asked for the investigation against Israel only.
ii. They asked the General Assembly to only consider the Israel findings and not the Hamas findings.
iii. The UNHRC has asked for 6 special sessions against Israel and 4 for the rest of the planet. Although Ab’s believes “The Zionist State” as all evil and worse than the Nazi’s there has never been a call for a special session for Russia and it’s killing in Chechnya nor against any Saudi’s when all of those school girls burned to death for not being dressed properly or Cambodia or Darfur or for all of those “Honor Killings” so prevalent in the Arab world.
iv. The Judges had decided the verdict before the investigation.
v. This committee is a joke just look at the member’s which is why the USA rightfully boycotted this really sad story of an over politicized committee.
4. Brigitte T. (Thursday November 19, 2009, 7:29 am)
a. Don’t worry Briggete I like reading what you have to say and I like reading your thoughts better than when you just drop quotes.
i. If you have to object to words, why don't you object to the "holocaust" that the Israeli Defence minister had threatened to "unleash" against the Palestinians in 2008.
1. I actually said in an earlier posting here that I hated his use of this word and if I remember correctly he came under harsh criticism in Israel as well.
5. Hermon Mihranian - Friday November 20, 2009, 7:06 am
a. The creation of a Palestinian free State with Jerusalem as it's capital and beside the Israeli state with Telaviv as it's capital.
i. Since you want to pick Israel’s capitol why not Mecca? That way each of us would lose our holiest places.


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Friday November 20, 2009, 11:54 pm
Some time , I may answer a comment when I find it is worthy.This David R, comment critcizing any body who tells a fact about the Zionist state,is not worthy.