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Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre

World  (tags: wot, americans attack on fallujah, genocide, human rights violations, war crimes, iraq )

- 4018 days ago -
Documentation of civilian massacres in Fallujah by the US military using chemical weapons including white phosphorus and MK77...

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Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 6:40 pm

What are we part of? (without any say?) This is DISGUSTING.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 7:00 pm

God help us...

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 7:08 pm

Although I actually have no say in it, I am REPULSED by the barbaric, inhuman mentality of the government that is supposed to be representing me. It is small wonder why we are hated.

Marty Powell (147)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:28 pm
We have turned into the barbarians at the door. unfortunately humans do evil things to each other, especially during war. This is disgusting

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:31 pm

Thank you, Marty. MOST disgusting of all, I think, is the suppression of information. (This so closely mirrors Hitler's regime that it is truly frightening.)

Robert K (437)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:38 pm
Carole, And the US is supposedly God chosen Nation. I have heard Howard Zinn and others talk about what white phosphorus does to a living, breathing, conscious human being. And then there's is the depleted uranium causing every kind of anomoly imaginable. Since Bush invaded Iraq it has caused appox. a million Iraqis to die. Old men and women, the sick and afflicted, and little children. The US does not have to try and rule the whole world with the 737 military bases scattered throughout and approx. 2 million soldiers with an arnesal of nuclear bombs large enough to vaporized the entire universe several times over. Such madness is barbaric to say the least. Please keep this going.

Marty Powell (147)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:39 pm
It IS frightening. They have tried to hide the facts in a world where news travels as fast as the internet and they have done a semi decent job of it. Yet the truth gets out. It always will. It may take a while, but the truth does come out. May the people who did this (and the other things we havent seen) pay what ever the ulitimate costs would be for their culture.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:41 pm

I think it is so important that the truth be "outed" about the destruction and inhumanity this government wreaks on the world. And NONE of us have any say about it! It breaks me to tears to think that future generations will not know how powerless we are in this "DEMOCRATIC" society!!!

This is a dictatorship.

Marty Powell (147)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:46 pm
I had a good friend, many years ago, who was in the Vietnam war. He talked about what phosphorus did to people. One of his friends was hit while standing next to him. There wasnt anything that they could do but watch him die in a horrific way. The description gave me nightmares for years and my friend never did recover. There is no need to use weapons of this sort. A part of me truly believes that if we must have war, that it should be hand to nad with stick and stones only. You should have to look some one in the eye before you kill them.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 8:50 pm

And when this is over . . . those poor souls who volunteered to serve their government (which actually is a truism -- we are GOVERNED), will be released -- like Nam -- with horrors in their heads, emerging from a land they knew little about before, and little help from those same people who sent them there.

In any other circumstance, Bush would be considered to be an accomplice to MURDER.

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:00 pm
Only by bringing all things to the light, will there be enough knowledge, understanding, courage and compassion to stop these atrocities.

These are 3 links to "threads under construction". They contain may other links. I am posting them as much is beginning to "disappear" from the internet.

Carole, what many do not understand is that not only is Bu$h a murderer, all who are permitting him to remain in power are complicit...including American citizens. This rests on each person to demand an end to this madness now and take every action to ensure successful impeachment. The entire administration must also be charged with war crimes. No government is above the law.

While you visit the abovementioned links, please stop by and read "The Moral Imperative", where you can connect with organizations working towards impeachment and learn about how individual citizens can do this without waiting for Congress.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:03 pm

Copied and going to quickly. (Sad to say that I have to do that.)


PrimaAWAY B (1278)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:12 pm
I have no words. The shock is beyond words.....

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:14 pm

We have been fed so many lies. (I can't stop shaking my head, or wringing my hands)


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:15 pm

Indigo, bearer of truth and enlightenment... I don't even no where to begin to thank you.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:17 pm

I sent notice of this article to all my friends -- and I see many have noted here.

Thank you all for responding!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:21 pm

Does this make anyone else but me realize that our "admittance" of wrongdoing at Abu Ghraib was a diversionary tactic?

That was NOTHING compared to what else we are doing!

Bobbie W (113)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:51 pm
Nothing good ever comes out of war, but this is beyond evil! Thanks for submitting this. We have to find out the truth somewhere!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 9:56 pm

As most of us are aware, the repression of truth is one of the foundations of dictatorship. Ask yourself this: Why does condemning information disappear? And how much will we never know. If you had the courage to watch the tape, you will note that many "truth bearers" are now dead. That seems to be a tradition in this land of "freedom."

Lorraine Ewart (162)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 10:20 pm
It is so galling, that a president can be so aware of the end results in the use of chemicals yet signs or agrees with whomever he needs to in order for these measures to be taken.
It isn't until strips like this that anyone is any the wiser of what exactly has been happening or what is happening in a country that is so distant.
It isn't any wonder why these people hate americans so fiercely, we get to stand around and shake our heads or scratch them in dismay, trying to put one and one together, after they who have suffered to the ultimate have already made their decisions. It is no wonder that they have preconceived attitudes towards foreigners, we are always the ones to stand looking like idiots due to our lack of knowledge of what has been occurring when we had nothing to do with it.
After watching this; we no longer have the thought of "not knowing" or "what do they mean". It won't work because if (heaven forbid) any of us have the opportunity to be traveling there for whatever reason, the knowledge is in our memories and it would be written all over our faces.
We can no longer proclaim ignorance or innocence.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 10:26 pm

Bless your heart, Lorraine.

How would you feel if an army invaded your city, shot civilians on the street, poisoned your children, and otherwise violated your freedom.

Hang on a minute! (Has Columbus just landed? Are the Pilgrims coming next? Did those people discover that the natives were an incumbrance, and must be eliminated?)

Sound familiar? It's a track record.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 10:33 pm

Ya know, Lorraine. The US Government already knows its citizens are not idiots. You watched one video and were "galled." (which proves they suppress the truth because they KNOW it would never be accepted by the average citizen, who I believe is deep-down good and fair).

What we should be angry about is the fact that we are taught "freedom of speech" and "freedom of press" and the very people we elected to uphold our rights are the ones suppressing them!

If there were ever reason to impeach a president, I believe we have a MULTITUDE now.

Mara G (411)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 11:06 pm
Yes Carole, disgusting is an understatement and as gory as it is, people need to look at the reality of War and realize what they have allowed to happen. This picture is only one of millions that are in the minds of millions of people. Hidden behind a cloak, a genocidal Holocaust in the name of War. It is too late to turn back the clock, and like the Germans in 1944, we must face what we have done. "Some" of us tried to stop it.....but failed. Disgusting....indeed!!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday May 20, 2007, 11:14 pm
I take exception to your statement "what they have allowed to happen." Did someone ask YOU if all this was O.K. (cuz NO ONE asked me . . . and if they HAD, I woulda said NO!) In fact, GWB had been told repeatedly by our OTHER elected representatives to PULL OUT -- but he (not me) WON'T.

Call me confused, but this doesn't sound like a democracy. This isn't anything I approved. This isn't anything I SUPPORT. So HOW did I "allow this to happen?"

Nadia Donato (476)
Monday May 21, 2007, 12:16 am
This is absolutely appalling. Isn't it interesting that Giuliana Sgrena was kidnapped shortly after interviewing the refugees in Fallujah? Unfortunately for the US, they didn't succeed in killing her though they did kill the Italian agent who saved her. And, the US soldiers who kept shooting their car during her escape, on their way to the airport got off without even a slap on the wrist.

The media is being silenced here and Americans are kept in the dark. A horific story such as this would have been reported 24/7 in cable news had it not been us doing the atrocities. Instead, we get non-stop news on Anna Nicole or the like. The stupid American populace would never understand why we are so despised around the world. So, their response as carefully instructed by his Highness Dubya is that they're either 'with us or against us' so F- 'em. I would bet that those who have this mantra that the US is the best country in the world haven't been on a plane to go anywhere outside their little bible taunting trailer town. Though I live in NYC, I've met them while canvassing remote towns during the elections. It's like being in another world. Anyway, real Christians do not believe in the taking of life. And, real patriots question their government and not just hang a flag outside their porch and obey their leaders like zombie sheep. Sorry, I'm venting here...It just gets me so angry how this monster is in office for a second term.

Thanks for posting this, Indigo. And thanks to Lorraine for the lead. This video should be passed around, and most importantly, it should get to people OUTSIDE of Care2. Having this story stay within this community is just like preaching to the choir. I think it's up to us to inform the rest of this country since our media certainly isn't doing its job.

Cole Cordray (45)
Monday May 21, 2007, 12:28 am
i wonder if we don't believe too much in what is in the press. people i talk to, and several work for me, who have just come back from there say this is propaganda. i will reserve judgement.

Nadia Donato (476)
Monday May 21, 2007, 1:04 am
Did you watch the same video, Cole? Do you think they staged the whole thing? Did they fly in some Hollywood make-up artists to create enlarged skulls on small children, have people's faces and bodies look half melted and skinned, flesh hanging from their bones…the dead animals looked like they were poisoned. Those injuries can not be made by your ordinary arsenal. How about the US soldiers who are now speaking out…you can’t possibly know all of those who served.

As I've said in the past, it's a knee jerk reaction to call something propaganda when it doesn't fit ones belief. Denial isnt going to help us. I suggest you watch it again.

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 1:09 am
This is very interesting, but don't beat up on your government too much - just do something about it. And a change to the Dems isn't going to help much. Brasscheck TV has its own agenda and as a journalist I'm very suspicious of organisaions that produce news thats all the same. Have a look at their stories - they have only a few themes. The real world isn't like that. People aren't all good or all bad. The public media only give the public what they want - they are a business. All of you have access to any media in the world - the reason you haven't hear any of these stories is maybe they didn't really happen; or maybe just not quite this way.

Don't you find it unbelievable that all these exclusive stories of American scandal are scooped only by Brasscheck TV?

There are brilliant journos in Europe, Asia, India, Africa the middle East who would do anything to nail the USA and they never discover these stories.

Makes one Think!


Ali Hirst (286)
Monday May 21, 2007, 3:30 am
I feel sick...this is the worst I have ever seen..How can the US say they are a Great country when this is what is happening...shocked doesn't even begin to sum up what I think here.

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 3:53 am
Karen who do you work for ? You mentioned you were a journalist. Which organization/network ?

"It makes one think" ?!? Indeed !

Why should Americans NOT "beat up" on their government. They have a right to be outraged.

What do you recommend that American citizens SHOULD do about what is happening in their name ?

You are right about a change to a Democrat government NOT making any difference. They were all a part of the agenda for Iraq and the general policies that have prevailed in the Middle East for decades.

The entire American government as we know it, will come down if impeachment proceedings take place as the revelations will bring ruin to the each party and people will want an entirely NEW government; one that puts people before profits; one with integrity, honor, dignity, compassion, honesty, respect for human rights and the environment...need I say more ???

I make no appologies for Brasscheck TV. They certainly DO have an agenda. That agenda is to provide people with THE REAL NEWS and not the censored government approved sterilized perversions and propaganda spewed like vomit from the major American News Networks such as CNN and FOX.

I refer daily to excellent news sources from around the world that are readily available to anyone seeking the truth. No matter which one you read you will find that the major news blackouts are happening primarily in America and Canada.

UK Guardian,The Independent and the BBC will tell you the same stories as Brasscheck. All independent news is consistently sharing the same uncensored information.

I am returning to post a BBC link that I highly recommend. It will speak for itself.

And by the way, what is your professional oppinion of Bill Moyers ?

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 3:54 am
Karen who do you work for ? You mentioned you were a journalist. Which organization/network ?

"It makes one think" ?!? Indeed !

Why should Americans NOT "beat up" on their government. They have a right to be outraged.

What do you recommend that American citizens SHOULD do about what is happening in their name ?

You are right about a change to a Democrat government NOT making any difference. They were all a part of the agenda for Iraq and the general policies that have prevailed in the Middle East for decades.

The entire American government as we know it, will come down if impeachment proceedings take place as the revelations will bring ruin to the each party and people will want an entirely NEW government; one that puts people before profits; one with integrity, honor, dignity, compassion, honesty, respect for human rights and the environment...need I say more ???

I make no appologies for Brasscheck TV. They certainly DO have an agenda. That agenda is to provide people with THE REAL NEWS and not the censored government approved sterilized perversions and propaganda spewed like vomit from the major American News Networks such as CNN and FOX.

I refer daily to excellent news sources from around the world that are readily available to anyone seeking the truth. No matter which one you read you will find that the major news blackouts are happening primarily in America and Canada.

UK Guardian,The Independent and the BBC will tell you the same stories as Brasscheck. All independent news is consistently sharing the same uncensored information.

I am returning to post a BBC link that I highly recommend. It will speak for itself.

And by the way, what is your professional oppinion of Bill Moyers ?

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 3:54 am
Karen who do you work for ? You mentioned you were a journalist. Which organization/network ?

"It makes one think" ?!? Indeed !

Why should Americans NOT "beat up" on their government. They have a right to be outraged.

What do you recommend that American citizens SHOULD do about what is happening in their name ?

You are right about a change to a Democrat government NOT making any difference. They were all a part of the agenda for Iraq and the general policies that have prevailed in the Middle East for decades.

The entire American government as we know it, will come down if impeachment proceedings take place as the revelations will bring ruin to the each party and people will want an entirely NEW government; one that puts people before profits; one with integrity, honor, dignity, compassion, honesty, respect for human rights and the environment...need I say more ???

I make no appologies for Brasscheck TV. They certainly DO have an agenda. That agenda is to provide people with THE REAL NEWS and not the censored government approved sterilized perversions and propaganda spewed like vomit from the major American News Networks such as CNN and FOX.

I refer daily to excellent news sources from around the world that are readily available to anyone seeking the truth. No matter which one you read you will find that the major news blackouts are happening primarily in America and Canada.

UK Guardian,The Independent and the BBC will tell you the same stories as Brasscheck. All independent news is consistently sharing the same uncensored information.

I am returning to post a BBC link that I highly recommend. It will speak for itself.

And by the way, what is your professional oppinion of Bill Moyers ?

JoAnna N (199)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:00 am
I can only cry and pray and hope that our children will grow up and make a better world....the adults have screwed it up big time. No living creature should be mutilated in this appalling,shameful....horrendous, violent attack on another's life.

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:29 am
How did one click result in three posts ???

Here are the promised links. The first is from a BBC documentary:
Iraq: The Hidden Story:

Next is an archive of censored images from the Iraq war:

Last are two documentaries where women speak about the impact of the war in Iraq on the nation in general and on women in particular:

Iraq: The Women's Story

Ms. Eman Ahmad Khamas: Stop the U.S. government's genocide of the Iraqi people

*My sincere desire and prayer is that one day there will be no war and atrocities such as we have seen will never happen again. And I hope that documentaries that are so utterly disturbing but necesary, will never have to be only beauty and justice will prevail.

However, until that day, there needs to be journalistic courage, honesty and integrity from the media and an openness to learn and a willingness to act from the public.

It is only through exposing dark deeds to the light of public scrutiny, that we can bring them to an end.

I trust that good citizens from around the world will know exactly what to do when they are provided with accurate information.

For the people such knowledge is power.

For the governments who have deceived us it is their greatest fear that we should awaken and learn the truth.

May this information lead to good things and an end to war. Let us use it to demand change and an end to war forever.



David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:38 am
Thanks Indigo (and Carole) for this link. Indigo has expressed it very well, in her comments above, on the suppression of the truth, and the part played by the American media. As for Cole, does he suppose that the UK's Ministry of Defence is pumping out lies AGAINST themselves?!!!!! Then there is Karen's inability to READ, even though she claims to be a 'journalist'. This indictment of those who use banned chemical weapons, and try to suppress the fact, was not made by Brasscheck, it is an Italian production. Karen, are you hinting that you actually approve of what happened in the destruction of Falluja (and other towns), with the mass, indiscriminate murder of the population, and that this is a price worth paying? If so, what do you think this has achieved, and for what end? Why do you suppose military personnel have been banned from having free access to UTube, etc.? Those responsible for this 'war' must be tried for the war crimes they have, and still are, committing. The impeachment of this Adminstration should, and MUST be the first step in the process.
I also agree that we are preaching to the 'converted' here on C2NN, and that the wider public have to be made aware of the reality, and awful truth, of what is being done in their name.
When a soldier dies fighting abroad, it is usual to say 'He/she died for their country'. In what sense would this be true for those who die in Iraq? What, and for whom are they dying daily? It certainly is not for America or Britain, that this 'war' is being waged!! On the contrary, it is for Bush and his Administration, as representatives of the Military-Industrial complex, in the furtherance of the aims set out in the neocons' New World Order manifesto, the equivalent of Hitler's Mein Kampf. If you are capable of reading, and bring a critical intelligence to bear, then research the neocon agenda, and see for yourself how it is being played out in the world today.

Vikas S (261)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:53 am

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:54 am
Cole you must be getting your censored version of news directly from the USA DOD.

Everyone, I invite you to check out their website. They have an amazing #*%!!B$ propaganda effort underway. You would think that they have literally been the saviours of the Iraqi people. I would never believe a word that comes from the sources in government that lied to the American people and their allies to entice them to accept this misbegotton war.

How many lies has Bu$h been caught at ? Then we have the long list of deceptions from his administration.
Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Cheney, Rice and more...really I have lost count.




Please visit and read The Final Verdict.

David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:06 am
Vikas, is that ALL you have to say on the subject, as 'an ambassador for peace', and why only in 63 countries? Since Iraq is not exactly land-locked, do the Iraqi people not deserve peace too?

Aggie M (44)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:09 am
{Wow, when I went to watch the clip there were only Carole's first three comments! Country living but no DSL! } I am also falling to the side of caution here. Do I think this is below the things that our military would do? Sadly, no. Over the years too many things have climbed out from under the woodwork for me to disbelieve this. It also struck me that only 2 men were in the clip talking about this and the sound quality really stinks. That doesn't lend itself to truth. Nadia, remember one of the crimes that Saddam was crucified for was the gassing of his own people, there were videos of that experiment that he had taken, a lot of actors would not have been required. The harsh reality is, we are no longer the good guys like we once were. Although he didn't start the downward spiral, the little 8 year dictator wannabe sitting on Pennsylvania Avenue has dragged this country to an all time low. It only took him 8 years but it will take a hell of a lot longer for us to try and get back up from this disaster! I agree Nadia, I walked around for weeks trying to figure out why anyone, let alone a majority, would have given him one vote! I still suffer a bit from the good old days when votes really mattered and weren't for sale in any way. I do not know one person who would agree that this kind of thing is done in our name! I feel very badly when I hear something like what Mrs. Mahon said because it is assumed that these things are being done with us, the citizens, behind them. We have learned in the past that the government lies at its own convenience. They will never stop regardless of who tells the truth about any given incident. Do you think those kids on the tape are scared for their lives? Do you think they should be? I do! This is not my America, it never will be my America, and we now have to try and regain our America!

David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:30 am
Aggie, Mrs Mahon was one of Blair's 'babes', as they were termed by the press here, when New Labour came into office. She was 'parachuted' in to stand as an MP when New Labour disapproved of the original Labour candidate in her constituency because he was too Leftwing!! At least she had principles, unlike the other 'babes', who still support the Blair/Bush agenda. As someone remarked, New Labour would learn a lot about how the ordinary citizen thinks and lives, and about the real world, if they watched more TV, and not just only those clips which show themselves spouting to themselves!!

Abid Ali G Manesia (397)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:48 am
Simply disgusting and barbaric. Don't such day to day scenes have any effect on those who are instrumental in first place for opening the 'pandora's box' ?????????????????????????? Are they not believers in some power super unto whom they'll have to return one day and will have to answer all such mayhems?

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:48 am
Aggie, I wanted to share that having worked with war affected children I have seen many contraband films of atrocities being committed. These had been verified as authentic by Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. I can assure you that their sound and image quality may well be inferior when one is filming in the midst of a battle and most filming in these cases is done on personal cellphones and videocams while the photographer is dodging for cover trying to stay alive.

Some of the best and most helpful film footage of the 9/11 disaster came from citizens with personal cameras, etc. This in no way invalidates the information being documented.

I also wanted to share that there is not only a thorough war crimes investigation being carried out in the USA. There is a Brussels War Crimes Tribunal On Iraq. If you research this, you will find that much evidence presented there will match precisely what you have seen from Fallujah in this video.

It is hard to accept such things happen. Nevertheless, they do and they are.

George R W (63)
Monday May 21, 2007, 6:56 am
What is apalling is that y'all believe this.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 6:56 am
David, you make a good point. Many times, it is like "talking to the choir" here. But what it DOES do is respark that total anger in me, that rage at feeling used and manipulated, that fury over the senseless loss of lives (ALL of them . . . not just Americans and their allies).

Complacency is dangerous too. Everyone should be outraged!

Laura Hovland (129)
Monday May 21, 2007, 7:40 am
Thank you for sharing this Indigo. I came across the use of white phosphorus by our government when I was looking into DU use about 6 months ago. The Israeli's used it in Lebanon as well. The photos I saw left no room for argument, there were many of them, and although a few of them seemed a little staged, it was a 'Just look at this, Do something!' type of staging, medics uncovering bodies for the camera, and holding up child victims for photos. The damage done by white phosphorus is unlike that of any other known weapon. Did you look into this George? Or are you simply clinging to the emotional belief that the U.S. government would not do such a thing? This is real, and pretending that it isn't, George, only sets the president that we, the people, will allow it to continue.
Carole, while I agree that this is infuriating, I would suggest that we not allow ourselves to become emotionally overwhelmed. Rage can be a paralyzing emotion, and all emotions effect logic. We must all have our wits about us if we are to effect change.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 8:07 am
Laura, I applaud your sense of reason; and you are absolutely right.

My point, however, was that we sometimes become complacent and need to get a kick in the butt like this to renew our awareness of the many levels of manipulation the government uses (such as repression of information) in order to keep us that way.

David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 9:03 am
I would love to know what it is you believe about what IS happening in Iraq, George. Do you convinced that freedom and democracy are securely established, and all is peaceful and serene in that part of the world? The White House, and the rightwing press would like everyone to think that, if only they could stifle the truth of what is really happening! So, George, give us your considered opinion.

Laura Hovland (129)
Monday May 21, 2007, 9:14 am
Many levels indeed.
Manipulating our emotions is just one these, the most researched and used tools of our government, in which the control of information plays a huge part. We must be vigilant in keeping our emotions out of it, and look for the truth behind all subjects. The human rights issue in Iran is a good current example. Right now our CIA making news for us by actively promoting dissent and protests in Iran. Then, when people are arrested, we get upset, and back the war effort. We do not mean to bring war to these people, after all, logic tells us that that will not help. None the less, when our emotions are triggered, we 'feel' that since something must be done, then is is ok to bomb the government into submission, and turn a blind eye to the civilian deaths, and their loss of the most basic freedoms.
Our emotions are often manipulated to pull our attention away from things as well. This, I believe, is one of the most overlooked uses, (due to our distraction). In watching the MSM news, we are kept hopping from one emotional subject to the next, put on a roller coaster that leaves us feeling too drained and overwhelmed to do anything about any of it.
Yes Carole, we must be aware, and not become immune to the atrocities, not allow ourselves to be manipulated, and never cease in our efforts to hold 'our' governments accountable.

Jennie B (14)
Monday May 21, 2007, 11:08 am
This is so "mind blowing" as we used to say that I was almost speechless. I said almost...I don't know the pros or the cons of whoever broadcast this and who is or isn't in denial. I do know that BAD things happen in WAR -these kinds of bad things. 10 year olds blow up people, shoot people and die. They did in Vietnam and they probably do in this war, too. Peoples' heads get blown off, cut off, as do other body parts. Wake up people, this isn't a movie take where people get up and wipe the make up off, pick up the head and go back home. This is Real. War is real. You can spin it anyway you want for those of you still in denial, but ask the real men and women who have been there and are not too sick and programmed by the gov't to DENY and spout propaganda at you. They will tell you about REAL WAR. It's disgusting and bloody and it WARPS peoples' minds if they even walk away alive. The person who did this to this man will be a mess when he gets home wherever that is. Let's hope it isn't this country. Stop thinking Americans can't do BAD things or wouldn't. They are in a war situation with their lives on the line everyday. You don't know what you would do if you haven't been there. You simply can't JUDGE someone else when you don't know what it is like living on the edge of life and death every minute of every day and night. It's hell-period. And you think people don't come back SICK? Very sick and we want to think they are "just fine" - really? Would you be? Do you want to blame them? I don't think so....It's not like they are walking down the street in your town and suddenly take out the grocer...this is another world we don't get because we don't live in it. Now, the Iraqi people who have done nothing to deserve this war do get it....and unfortunately, they live in it everyday, too and they are just as traumatized. We can't blame them or their children who succumb to the insurrgents appeals to take up arms...they want us out of their country. Why don't we? Sounds like a good plan to me. Because we have a President and administration who have VESTED interests in Iraq and the middle east more important to them that PEOPLE- that would be Iraqis and you and me (any people, my friends, Americans or otherwise). We know they need to go, but unfortunately, no one has the GUTS to get rid of them thru impeachment. We liked the show/the circus of Clinton (I thought it was disgusting myself) but this one will not be nearly so entertaining - all bizness and corporations and money....yuck! and deception and lies and people boring. So the King stays on to cause continuous predictable problems while the People complain about what? Gory pictures? Don't like it? Go over there and volunteer to see what is real and what isn't. My friend who just returned assures me it is every bit as nasty as you are being told it not by Bushco. A good place to die if you want to but not to way to be sure you aren't immune to atrocities is to really SHOW THEM on TV to the public who have NO idea what is really happening in Iraq. Noted

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 11:23 am

BRAVO, Jennie!

I received a message today from someone who cannot post here saying the following:
"... I am not allowed to give expert testimony on the use of chemical weapons, (namely, we have not used any since WWI), and the fact that chemical weapons do not cause bodies to be ripped to pieces like in the images. No, that is a bomb or mortar kill. That is my expert former Green Beret fact -- Retired Command Sgt Major and expert in all forms of Combat and Tactics"

This person knows I feel very strongly about this issue, but in fairness to ALL opinions, I offer it here.

This is part of my response to him:
"As you've probably seen, I am infuriated by the whole Fallujah situation, and the fact that it has received no major press coverage. In my opinion, whether the depicted wounds came from mortar shells or chemicals, it is still an outrage.

That said, however, I feel you should have the right to post your opinion. "


Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 11:45 am










Black Cat (103)
Monday May 21, 2007, 12:55 pm
The world is going to Hell in a hand basket`

Paul Walsh (93)
Monday May 21, 2007, 1:02 pm
Chemical warfare is actually a by product of the First World War many of the nerve agents developed at that time are still held in government stockpiles.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 1:45 pm

Indigo, I want to thank you for providing those resources. Although disturbing to watch, we are privileged not to be LIVING it! (as we have forced the MIddle East civilians to do)

Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 4:45 pm
I have always been against war. My children will never fight in something like that. My daddy wasin the Korean War, not by choice, You could tell it was the most horrible thing he had ever been in because he refused to talk about it because he was on the front lines killing the people. My children will never even know what a gun feels like I hope. I have tried to teach them to treat people the way they want to be treated.

David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:08 pm
Some 'expert in all forms of Combat and Tactics' Carole!!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:11 pm

As I said, I just felt he had a right to speak (even though I, obviously, don't agree.

The beauty of a debate is two sides.

People do not have to agree with me to be my "virtual friends."

David Cromie (6)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:13 pm
Paul, you are right, the first WW saw the introduction of 'Mustard Gas' by the Germans. As a matter of interest, the US signed a declaration, not only that they would not again use napalm, but that they had destroyed all chemical/nerve gas agents after Viet Nam, as far as I remember.

Kerry S (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:26 pm
This from the very people who are PRO-LIFE!?!?! You have got to be kidding I was disgusted before and now I am even more so, not to mention those of our military who have desicrated those sites... yeah, we should be so damn proud...

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:40 pm

Kerry, you must have read my mind. One of the few "friends" who challenged me on this was a very "religious" pro-life person. His comment: "That's war, since wars began. They all are horrible."

Needless to say, I was unimpressed with his compassion for life.

Kent Keaton (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 5:51 pm
Well it sound like our so call government. Here in Arkansas they have been for over 15 years letting a steel plant called Quanex Macsteel do what ever they want to do from: killing a worker, burying hazardous waste on site that could be radioactive material, to discharging hazardous dust into the air on a very large scale, and dumping hazardous waste material into the local waterways with a large county park next door full of children. No enforcement of our Federal EPA laws, no fines, and no action. Many workers were threaten if they talked, I was fired from this steel plant for reporting the buried hazardous waste that the state of Arkansas ADEQ covered up. I had death threats and violent acts toward me when I worked at the steel plant. The plant manager John Fisher threaten after my death threat and told me "leave it alone or else." I was fired back in 2002 but in the summer of 2006 a manager from Quanex Macsteel attacked me and cut me above the right eye. The manager was arrested and found guilty in a court of law, but he was not fired from the steel plant. No one has ever been fired from Quanex Macsteel for falsifying OSHA reports, falsifying EPA reports, making death threats or violent acts toward a worker. The company ethical standards are sick and very low, money first, workers are second rate, and local children in the area come last. The USA has gone to the dogs and no one cares. Now we have a President that wants the control of the world oils supplies, cheap labor, and big profits by USA companies no matter how they get it. They have no fear because the American people will not stand-up and speak out together.

Sharon D (91)
Monday May 21, 2007, 6:05 pm
War is not peace. This makes me sick. God will help us all.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 6:08 pm

Unfortunately, Sharon, He may have to help us in death.

Barbara T (431)
Monday May 21, 2007, 7:10 pm
I have not seen that particular video; but, I knew all about the ATROCITIES at Fallujah, a long time, for over a year. THANK YOU Indigo, for finally bringing this to the attention of Care2 members. THESE ATROCITIES WERE COVERED BY THE "ALTERNATIVE" AND THE FOREIGN PRESSES, AT THAT TIME, when I and all my friends in the Peace Movement, learned about them. In case there is any doubt, I wrote POEMS about this which were PUBLISHED in Care2 forums at that time; and SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED FALLUJAH.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM FOR SKEPTICISM, none whatsoever. For those who think it was NOT in the Foreign Press -- do you read the Foreign Press, in many languages, and the BBC and the Guardian, every day? THE KEPT U.S. PRESS DOES NOT PRINT WHAT IS IN THE FOREIGN PRESS; that is the reason you have not seen what WAS in the Foreign Press! Now you can go BACK, and LOOK IT UP. I hate it when people make ridiculous assumptions just out of thin air! I am not going to let them get away with it!
You can ALSO, you who question the authenticity of this tape, go back and LOOK UP what was in the "Alternative" press, the Peace Movement Press, the Press of Third Parties -- etc. A year ago. Look up what the QUAKERS had to say, for just ONE example. Did Fox Faux News publish it? of course not! They are Bushco mouthpieces, pure and simple, nothing else! But so, unfortunately, is the daily news rag you probably read.
Friends of mine wrote LEAFLETS about this, MONTHS ago, and passed them out. You probably took little or no notice, if there even WAS a Peace Demo in your neighborhood at all.
This is NO SURPRISE to my friends and me. But, at the time, there was not NEARLY the blogosphere, YouTube is fairly recent, the information got on the Internet but was not widely read, this particular video may have just made it onto the Internet.
Why do you think ITALIANS turn out in their MILLIONS against Italian troops being in Iraq, against U.S. bases being in their country? Why do the DANES so vehemently not want their troops there, that they riot? THEY KNOW ALL ABOUT FALLUJAH, HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG. Just WE, most of the U.S. public, didn't; unlike the FAR BETTER-INFORMED foreign public. And so we WONDER why these "Allies", riot and HATE us?
You can EASILY show any skeptic, a HUGE AMOUNT of information on Fallujah, besides this one video. Information that has been around SINCE THE ATROCITY ITSELF. Which was quite a while ago. Shows you how SUCCESSFUL the SUPPRESSION OF DAMNING, CRIMINAL EVIDENCE is, by this mis-Administration; which needs to, after Impeachment, be TRIED AT THE HAGUE FOR THESE WAR CRIMES.
The WHOLE WORLD KNOWS; now it is our DUTY to INFORM U.S. CITIZENS, as well -- catch up with the rest of the world. Just ask ANY foreign person who is politically aware, how long they have known the facts about the Fallujah atrocity by the U.S.!!!
We cannot be weak and vacillating; every one of us, confronted with this, has A MORAL CHOICE TO MAKE. NOT making a choice, is STILL making a choice. As Bush, as Commander-in-Chief of the entire Army, himself put it so well, "You are either for {me}, or against {me}." {He used a different word.} WHICH is it going to be???

Barbara T (431)
Monday May 21, 2007, 7:17 pm
In November, 2006, I wrote the parody "I'm Dreamin' of a White Phosphorus Christmas" {where the burnt skin glistens, and children listen, to hear their mothers crying Woe!}, and several Care2 members objected to this as being too gross for Care2.
Sorry to mention it; this is just to show that I KNEW; AND SO DID MY FRIENDS WHOM I CAN NAME; AND PUBLICATIONS AND REPORTERS I CAN NAME. Just not the press that MOST people read.
Yes, Bushco is FRANTIC to suppress videos like this; and wishes YouTube had never been born!!!

Anita Lee (1121)
Monday May 21, 2007, 7:23 pm
Very sad!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 9:24 pm
BM (Gee that's not a good abbreviation, is it?)

Thank you so much for dispelling these ridiculous attempts to avert reality when faced with the obvious!

Ya know, there are STILL people who will deny that the holocaust even happened?

(But then, probably some of those people still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny)


Past Member (0)
Monday May 21, 2007, 9:55 pm
Everyone has made some amazing contributions here and I totally agree that we must not allow ourselves to be manipulated by the government. I sense that getting to the truth of a matter is the beginning of awakening from the spell that our media and politicians have skilfully cast over us for many years. Our minds are being liberated.

Anger has its place as it moves us from complacencey to action. It must not be the basis for action.

I know we have a daunting task ahead in reforming our governments and creating world that is just and fair for all. I DO BELIEVE THIS IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE ! WE MUST BELIEVE IT.

It is really important, when faced with these atrocities, to draw inspiration from the Gandhi's, MLK's , Nelson Mandela's , Wangarii Mathai's and countless others who have seen the face of evil and stood tall in answer to it and made wonderful changes happen.

I heard one speaker state that in the US, those in power only number 600. Now how many millions of Americans are there ? No matter where you look in the world, we have the advantage of numbers on our side.

I also believe we can utilize many non-violent effective strategies to achieve the goal of ending war. The key is for the people to be united among themselves and absolutely dedicated to peace and justice.

So let us gather our collective rage and grief and transmute it into a clear and certain determination that we will stop this and bring all perpetrators to trial and appropriate sentencing.

What you have shared, Laura, goes far and deep. The CIA has many organizations that do its work throughout the world. By America's own definition of what consitutes a terrorist organization, the CIA is it !

We need to be aware of how they have worked in every country(including our own) both prior to war as well as during and after. They are the thugs of the shadow government and have never served the interests of National Security. They were at work in every country in the Middle East sowing strife and confusion, turning people against each other, dividing them to make conquest easier...and still are. They are diabolical beyond belief. Many of their branches masquerade as humanitarian organizations which makes all advocacy work very dangerous. You really have to investigate each campaign before you can even touch it.

Let us see what we can come up with to bring this horrific cycle to an end.

I sincerely believe impeachment is vital and necessary. That is a beginning. Let us start there and take the next step when that goal is accomplished.

BMutiniy T has many brilliant initiatives in the works. Perhaps she will share them here ???


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday May 21, 2007, 10:06 pm
Well said, Indigo.

I haven't felt this alive (and united) since the late 60's/early 70's. I had almost given up hope.

It's truly unfortunate that it takes this much bloodshed, hypocrisy, lies and manipulation to slap people to attention, but THANK GOD IT DID.

I agree. Let's focus this momentum into postive, changing action. I know I'm ready. If I don't do this, I can never apologize enough to future generations -- Why? Because I KNOW.


Cole Cordray (45)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 12:18 am


Date: Monday, May 21, 2007, 11:43 PM
Subject: re: Comment on: Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre

negative, my virtual friend. i do not get my news from dod. after 32 years government service (i guess service is the word) i still have my bs filter running on high. i only meant that one must be absolutely sure before buying in to something that is shocking, timely, and seems to be in just the right place at the right time. i am not a bush fan. never have been. but i do work for the government. someone has to and it might as well be me, who believes in fair play, truth and honesty. i only wish that when i pay my taxes i could say where they are going, but i cannot. if we could, bushco and etc would collapse. i am a two time vietnam vet, and boy does this war in iraq grate against all that i hold dear. so did vietnam, but hey, i was young and thought i was needed. that is what happens to us. we are young, have not the world experience needed to make those wise decisions that come later. as i said, i am a civilian supervisor on a military installation, and when those young folks come before my desk my heart aches for them. some of them are proud of having gone to iraq, and it is not my place to put them down. i can't do it. i lost a son, and something in me just won't let me do it. but, on the other hand, if i can talk to them before they go, i let them know how i feel about it.

what can i say, indigo. i respect your feelings and attitudes, and agree with most of them. but this is what makes you and i like we are. we can discuss this openly and honestly. i can only hope the next administration can get us the hell out of there. i cry inside each day with the news of another death or deaths at the hands of our present administration. history repeats itself again and again.

when i first saw the pictures, i thought, oh - arranged body parts. dramatic effect. then i realized the fact that these are real people, and dead, made the arrangement moot. we all have dead on our hands. our side and their side. who is right and who is wrong, whose ideology prevails, whose God is the just God?

so, all i do is talk gently to my 'boys', and make sure they are getting what they need to adjust.

love you.

Original Message:


Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 1:19 am
Cole, it must be terrible to work for a government whose policies you are at odds with. Fallujah must have reminded you of Viet Nam in many ways.

It must also feel absolutely horrible to see the young men, most so innocent and naive, marching like sheep to the slaughter. We see statistics. You have names and faces to those fallen and they are like family to you....your own sons.

With your experience, you know what awaits them. I am assuming you may have lost a son in war ???
I am so sorry to hear this. That grief must be relived every time a soldier falls.

I don't think that we have to live like this and there were times when it was not always so. It is possible to have a caring society and a just world. If enough good people truly want it, it is ours to manifest.

As for god, there is no god in this war. It is the human love of power run amuk. I think that when we realize that, we are liberated from many ideological constrictions that keep us bound to repetative destructive patterns of behaviour.

It is not about anyone's idea of god or even religion. These are merely used as smokescreens for a far more diabolical agenda. They are also extremely effective methods of manipulating people, dividing and separating humanity, an enticement to "other" and "demonize" the "enemy". It is a way of sowing seeds of fear. Fear then breeds hate. All of it is a lie.

When we recognize that our common ground is our shared humanity, sharing one genetic code, one common ancestor, that we are all brothers and sisters of one large and diverse family, war will end and we will finally discover what GOD really means.

The only GOD that has any meaning for me is LOVE, PEACE, COMPASSION and LIMITLESS CREATIVITY that AFFIRMS AND SUSTAINS ALL LIFE. JUSTICE and RIGHT HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS to both one another and our world....that is GOD TRUE.


Stephen Hannon (203)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 6:05 am
The American people have not turned into barbarians, it is our government, but we sit idly by and believe the hype that comes from the Bush controlled media. If we knew the real deal in Iraq we would revolt. But Bush has taken away so many of civil liberties it is next to impossible to demonstrate against this war in Iraq.

CBS fired their Iraq war consultant General Batiste tow days after he gave a lecture at for speaking out against Bush's policy on the war, and for slamming Bush for his handling of the war.

CBS violated he his freedom of speech when they fired him. He had a right to say what he said, and he was not on CBS property when he slammed the Bush Administration.

What I find Ironic is that CBS is allowing Lara Lane special correspondent to interview soldiers who have come home from Iraq and are now speaking out against the war. CBS seems not to have a problem with this. There is one rule the soldiers must follow: They must be out of uniform, and they must be off duty before they can speak out against the war. If not then they can face an Article 32 hearing under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. An Article 32 is similar to a regular court arraignment where evidence is heard wheter or not probable cause has been met and then a Courts Martial may proceed...

The Bush Junta are monsters, and should be put on trial for Human Rights violations and war crimes.

Niall Leighton (40)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 9:01 am
BMutiny challenges Americans to ask politically aware foreigners when they knew about atrocities in Fallujah. I was getting reports while the American troops were still carrying out atrocities, thanks to some very brave people. Google "Jo Wilding Fallujah". I read this the week it came out:

It took me a while longer to hear reports of white phosphorus (mid or late '94, maybe??), but I've had a copy of the Hidden Massacre documentary on DVD since last year.

Personally, I think it's time Americans stopped praying for God to save them (the NeoCons are praying to the same God!!) and signing petitions, and get out and hold another revolution.

Remember this?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident ... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

I promise I'll and visit afterwards!

Patsy P (37)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 9:07 am
I did not finish reading this...

However do you not understand thast the other side is not the only ones dying in this manner..and in other ways ???

This is a war.. Both sides are using chemical warfare whether they admit it or not.....
Back when it was Desert Storm they used chemicals even though governments were saying NO...
BUT A friend of mines son was brought home in a sealed body bag that was put in a sealed coffin before they ever brought him home... The government would NOT permit her to see her son... ALl the news was saying no chemicals in warfare.. BUT why did the government say NO its sealed it cannot be opened... Even if my son was mangled I would want to know its truly him..... BUT My friend was not able... IT was a sad event... BUt not only her son went through this but many...

NOw this war is worse..BUt yet all governments still say NO chemical warfare is being used..

BUT in what I am reading YOU are chatting and posting in defense of AMERICAS enemy right now...

ThiS is a war..
NO matter who did the right thing or wrong thing...Including the PResident ! YEs He has done much more than just this to have cause for impeachment... true !
BUT stand behind the TROOPS of AMERICA !!!!!

THIS is a HOLY WAR if you read the BIBLE war over there is always to be TILL CHRISTS RETURN !
YOU do not believe this fine... NO loss on my soul....

BUT you better ask yourselves if you are doing fairly to OUR AMERICAN TROOPS in your actions........
Have you PRAYED on the matter ??????

I do not want war either...
I want our troops safe and home to their country and to their familes....
But the troops have to follow orders or they can be arrested or Shot for treason at time of war......
when people picket and vote to stop money flow to get to the troops for their supplies.. by getting government to vote NO stop the war.. THE government puts a hold on money to issue out supplies to feed, ammo, water, all sorts of stuff the troops need..In turn those voting to put a hold on the government is costing american troops lives..

Think on what you are doing, How you vote, what the cost is in the long wrong...


Niall Leighton (40)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 9:12 am
Sorry, typo: should read "mid or late '04".

Patsy, last I looked I was supporting the democratic values expressed in the American Declaration of Independence.

But there is no way this is a holy war. It's a war for political and economic power.

Niall Leighton (40)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 9:15 am
And while I'm on the subject, a war criminal is a war criminal. A soldier is legally bound to disobey illegal orders, and using white phosphorus on anybody, never mind civilians, is illegal, and the soldiers who did it, and the chain of command, should be prosecuted!

Barbara T (431)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:03 am
This is what brought the Viet Nam War to an end. This is -- I bet you never read this in your history books! -- what brought WWI to an end; when the Imperial German Army and Navy refused an order to attack the British Navy, directly refused; and the movement spread in the German Army and Navy like wildfire. {THAT is why YouTube has been censored for U.S. troops! so they don't hear about the other troops!}
Let the brave U.S. troops who are REFUSING, HEAR you and SEE you -- it CAN bypass the censorship! People are very ingenious. If you want to DO something besides talk, pray, cross your fingers and hope for the best. All talk and no ACTION gets us nowhere.
"Support Our Troops" means THIS. The brig is better than painful death and maiming. The troops must come home on THEIR timetable, or never -- Bush does NOT have a timetable, he thinks he can stall FOREVER; and WILL, if we LET him. BY YOUR OWN ACTIONS OF SUPPORTING THE RESISTERS, BRING THE TROOPS HOME!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:13 am

Patsy, Bush is supposed to be representating the will of his countrymen. Over 70% of them disagree with him. He, in turn, has chosen to ignore the wishes of his own people and is sending thousands of young people in die in a war based on greed.

THAT is unconstitutional! Another quote from the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government . . ."

We would better serve those soldiers by deposing the power-crazed despot and returning America to the nation it was founded to be.

Mr. Bush obviously thinks HE is God.

Barbara T (431)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:34 am
Blog: TROOPS' LOSS OF WILL-TO-FIGHT SIGNALS BEGINNING OF THE END OF ILLEGAL IRAQ WAR — Reports from Russian Military Analysts are describing what they term as a "rapidly declining will-to-fight”
among American Soldiers fighting in Iraq, with the greatest concern being placed upon US Soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division who reportedly this past week refused orders to ‘take to field’ against their Iraqi insurgent enemies.
During the Viet Nam War, a contingent of troops SAT DOWN ON THE BATTLEFIELD and REFUSED TO FIGHT.
In a famous incident, a group of soldiers ordered on a dangerous patrol, REFUSED TO GO, RIGHT WHILE BEING FILMED BY TELEVISON CAMERAS.
Besides, even if this were not true, ask yourself -- SHOULD AN HONORABLE MORAL PERSON NOT ACCEPT DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR? Surely, killing Iraqi civilians with White Phosphorus is DISHONORABLE. And, the penalty for COMBAT REFUSAL is ONLY jail.
In MANY cases, the Combat Refusers of the Viet Nam War, made BETTER lives for themselves, than those who did NOT refuse combat, and came home with PTSD or worse -- I SEE VIET NAM VETS BEGGING ON STREET CORNERS EVERY TIME I GO DOWNTOWN. "Vet needs food, not a drug addict, please help", their signs say.
WHICH troops do we support; the COMBAT REFUSERS, or the..... others. Those who will be HAUNTED by their CONSCIENCES FOREVER, if they carry out ILLEGAL, IMMORAL ORDERS.
[By the way, the "other" side HAS NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. ONLY "our" side has chemical weapons. Sometimes there is such a thing as "BLOWBACK" -- wheN our troops by accident or by proximity to the fighting, get CONTAMINATED with our OWN chemical weapons. This has also BEEN DOCUMENTED, but is naturally suppress by our subservient press. But, IT IS A KNOWN FACT THAT CAN BE RESEARCHED AND VERIFIED.]
Patsy, why are the Iraqis our "enemies"? Are you allowing Bushco to tell you who your enemies are? If we weren't there, they wouldn't be shooting at us and bombing the hell out of us. It is that simple. They ARE GOING TO WIN, as it is THEIR country, they LIVE there. ALL INVADERS HAVE TO LEAVE EVENTUALLY. Bushco is NO exception. If IRAQ had invaded the United States, we would OF COURSE be fighting to get them to leave, to the very last man and woman if necessary. WHY THINK THE IRAQIS ARE ANY DIFFERENT? They did NOT ask us to come; they are NOT begging us to please, please stay; they almost UNIVERSALLY support the Insurgency, which truly represents THEM more than their puppet government does.
YES, AMERICA HAS THE MORAL OBLIGATION TO LOSE THIS WAR. And LEAVE Iraq SOONER rather than later -- that way, casualties on both sides will be less.
America will lose, is losing, has in effect ALREADY LOST, whatever you or I or anybody thinks of it.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:38 am
(Dang! I HATE it when I re-read my posts and see glaring typos like "representating" and "young people in die.")


Barbara T (431)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:53 am
In the interests of absolute truth; I should have said, the Insurgency, the "other" side, HAD no chemical weapons. For a very long time. Just recently, I heard some "religious" groups are making some kind of a lethal gas bomb. I have just heard a few reports. This is not apparently very widespread. I have not heard of such bombs being used against U.S. troops -- just in the internecine conflict.
I want everything I say to be absolutely the truth and verifiable; that is why, when I remembered those reports of the gas bombs, I had to make a correction.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 11:03 am

I have just read and signed the petition: "Don't Back Down - End the War!"

Please take a moment to read about this important issue, and join me in signing the petition. It takes just 30 seconds, but can truly make a difference. We are trying to reach 25,000 signatures - please sign here:

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 11:14 am

Be It Resolved: You Can Impeach the President

How Can I Help The Soldiers?

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 22, 2007, 11:38 pm


Drive Out the Bush Regime in front of a million people !

Petition Here !

"Now any citizen can download the DIY Impeachment Memorial and submit it, making it possible for Americans to do what our representatives have been unwilling to do. The idea is for so many people to submit the Memorial that it cannot be ignored."

Other Impeachment Action Campaigns:

Actions You Can Take

Charge Rumsfeld With War Crimes(Petition)

Call on the German Federal Prosecutor to Investigate Rumsfeld and Other U.S. Officials for War Crimes at Abu Ghraib (Petition)

Torture At Guantanamo(Petition)


Lauren Stone (586)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 1:06 am
Patsy P. Excuse ME? I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but you must be the biggest, most brainwashed, bible thumping idiot I have ever seen! THIS IS NOT A F*CKING HOLY WAR! Really, with all due respect, are you insane?! How insulting can YOU be to our troops? This is BUSH's war. The Iraq's are NOT our enemies, they are victims of the Bush regime. Our troops are victims of the Bush regime as well. Don't blink, because Bush has his eye set on Iran next.
OPPOSING THE WAR is NOT equal to not supporting our troops. Asking our government to pull out of a lost and illegal war is not hurting our troops in any way. BUSH DOES NOT BACK THE TROOPS! That's a lie. Bush and our current government do NOT supply our troops with the needed and proper supplies and hasn't from the beginning. This government does NOT take care of the wounded returning home either.
How do I know this? Because MY SON was there. MY SON spilled his blood on Iraqi soil and is still living, if you can call it that. He is permanently wounded, physically, mentally and emotionally. And for what??? For Bush's lies and deceit and greed.
My son joined the USMC during peace time. Before the US gov illegally attacked Iraq. I have fought against this war since BEFORE it started and will not stop until all of our troops are home.
Bush should not only be impeached, but tried as a war criminal as well.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 8:25 am

BRAVO, Lauren!

Laura Hovland (129)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 9:48 am
Thank you BMutiny for your valuable, honest contribution to this discussion, Lauren, for telling off the willfully ignorant, and Indigo, for keeping us focused.

My husband and I have signed all of the petitions you listed, as well as these...

100,000,000 Americans Defend The Bill of Rights
Calling for the removal/impeachment of Cheney, Bush, Rumsfield and Ashcroft
2891 signatures

Petition for Impeachment Process of George W. Bush
871 signatures

The Impeachment of George W. Bush

88 signatures?? Seems real enough, could use support
Has a link to sign the petition Ten Reasons to Impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney at with 91328 signatures, as well as printables so you can gather signatures in person.

For California Residents: Bush, Cheney Impeachment - California Petition
7758 signatures

Terrie Williams (798)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 1:55 pm
Our government does what we think only other governments do....every single day.

It's time for Article V of the Constitution to be invoked. If the Congress will not do it, then, it's time for what one of our forefathers uttered.....a little revolution now and then is a good thing.


David Cromie (6)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 5:26 pm
Well said Lauren!!

Patsy, I am baffled!! What is 'holy' about stealing from others? What is 'holy' about slaughtering the innocent in persuit of theft? Do you, like Bush, consider this to be a 'holy crusade'? Does your god usually employ criminal. megalomaniacs to order atrocities in his name, in the furtherance of his objectives? If, as you admit, Bush deserves to be impeached, on what grounds, if he is merely fulfilling biblical prophesy? Do the Charter of the United Nations and the Bill of Rights/American Constitution mean nothing to you either (Bush called the Bill of Rights 'just a goddamned piece of paper')? I t seems that you need to think about the situation a bit more carefully, would you not agree?

David Cromie (6)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 5:37 pm
The ONLY weapons of mass destruction we KNOW, for sure, that Saddam had, were those supplied to him by the US during the Iran - Iraq war. If the insurgents are being supplied with chemical devices, that is really bad news!!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday May 23, 2007, 5:51 pm

Thank you, David. (I'm sure you'd be as embarrassed as me about your "leader" if you actually thought you had any say about what these "partners in crime" do.)

As for religion and politics (and ethics), there is NOTHING ethical about murder.

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 2:46 am
I would encourage everyone to demand that The Patriot Act be repealed and The Military Commissions Act be revoked.

These two obstacles must be removed. They not only maim the citizens working for peace and human rights, they impede the effectiveness of any representative with conscience who may support and be willing to go the whole distance to impeach Bu$h and his administration and proceed with war crimes charges against them.

Each step that Bu$h has taken to decree himself king, must be thoroughly undone.

If we follow a well charted course that combines restoration of all constitutional rights and freedoms, the carrying out of impeachment and encouraging all troops to refuse to fight or act in any manner that is in violation with International Law and the Laws Of War, we will achieve our goals very swiftly.

It requires intense focus and relentless determination, but we can do this.

I would like to ask if each person feels that the current peace movement is adequate, or whether a central connecting group needs to be formed to act as a complete information resource for restoring law within our nations and peace in the world ?

It seems that the main organizations are working well together, but frankly funding is a serious obstacle for them and they are struggling to maintain the momentum.

We can help here.

It is not as important that there be cash if there is not so much expenditure of time, energy and resources aimed at mobilizing and educating the unaware populace.

I may be naive, but I cannot imagine what we have the opportunity to share here at Care2 becoming common knowledge and the American people still unmotivated to act. I have faith in the integrity of the majority.

How can we each assist in spreading the word and ensuring that all plans to bring down this misbegotten government succeed without violence ?

Ideas ? Suggestions ?


Past Member (0)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 2:57 am

Bush Executive Order Gives Himself The Power To Control Entire Govt.

(1) (which is not the mainstream Democratic party) has reminded everyone that the time to change things through the system is before the primaries -- not to wait until the election itself. Their web page at discusses their pledge, and you can sign the pledge now to send a message to congress now. The pledge says that in the primaries, we'll replace incumbents with other folks if the incumbents support the war. We can turn this around in 2008. I like that idea.

But I wonder if 2008 will be too late. I wonder if we will have elections at all. One of the other emails I received mentioned this news item:

(2) In a presidential directive (i.e., executive order) that Bush quietly released on May 9, he gives himself the power to control the entire federal government -- not just the executive branch -- in the event of national emergency. Among many other things, he makes himself responsible for "orderly succession" and "appropriate transition of leadership." The document also contains some classified parts. You can read about this at

They've been getting ready for this for a long time. Reagan had some similar ideas back in 1984 (I think that date is just coincidental); he set up enough prison camps (still lying empty and ready) to hold a few million people. But that wasn't enough. In 2003, Bush's people set up a 10-year plan called "Endgame" which further details how the prison camps will be used. In 2006 they awarded Haliburton a $385 million contract to build more detention camps. The ostensible reason for most of the prison camps is in anticipation of a massive influx of Mexican illegal refugees, but they've already shown (with Guantanamo) that they can turn one facility to another use when convenient. There was also some stuff about forced labor in the detention camps. This is all over a year old, but it takes new life in view of Bush's recent "presidential directive."

Where do you stand on the paranoia scale? Do you think we can fix this thing with business as usual, with electoral politics? Or do you think it's too late for that? Or do you, like me, try to function on both levels?

None of us can be sure what will happen. The consensus trance of the newspapers and television and radio is so soothing -- it doesn't mention what we know, that Bush has lied over and over and over. It's so easy, so pleasant, to forget that fact.

And on the other extreme, I have to keep reminding myself not to be overcome by fear, because that kind of fear breeds authoritarianism, which is precisely the root of the problem. There is a tendency to panic when one realizes that one may be facing problems much bigger than one anticipated or expected or even dreamed of. But that gush of adrenalin dates back to our pre-technology origins, when the best response to an unanticipated problem involved a lot of rapid use of one's legs. A more useful response to our modern predicament is to treat it like a chess game -- use your mind, not your body, to think this through. We're down a bishop or maybe even a rook, but the game isn't over yet. Keep calm, steady your breathing, and think.

So, what can we do about this kind of problem? The authoritarians control the newspapers and television, but they don't yet have the internet, nor have they stopped word-of-mouth. Talk to your neighbors. Spread the message of freedom, diversity, nonconformity, tolerance, love, and hope; that is the antidote to authoritarianism. If this message makes sense to you, forward it to other people. I'm putting it on a few listserves; forgive me if you see it more than once.


David Cromie (6)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 5:33 am
This Presedential Directive could, in theory, allow Bush to put off the next presedential elections, since it gives him the powers of a dictator. In other words, this prepares the ground for a neocon coup d'etat!!

As Shakespeare has it in Julius Caesar:
'Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus; and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs, and peep about
To find ourselves dishonourable graves.
Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings'.

I doubt if Bush has ever read Shakespeare, but this is the 'Colossus' image he sees when he looks in the mirror, I have no doubt, while he views the rest of the world as mere underlings. But it is up to 'we the people' to let Bushco and Blair/Brown that we will not be their underlings and doormats, and to make sure that it is they who go down to 'dishonourable graves'.
Support 'Troops Out', impeachment, and indictment for War Crimes at the Hague!!


Julia D (92)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 7:50 am
One of the things that are still hotly debated in Germany is the question "how many people knew what was going on (in the Nazi camps) and why didn't they stop it?" That was in the 40s where almost noone had TV, there was no private TV, no internet and radio was only presenting Nazi propaganda.
Today we have all the information. We have the images, the internet, the videos - every thing. So the first part of the question doesn't need to be asked anymore. Leaves the second part.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 7:57 am

Excellent point, Julia. A good start would be the petitions mentioned above and actively initiating impeachment proceedings within your community and network of friends.

The worst thing we can all do is lose momentum and do nothing. Time is of the essence, particularly with primaries coming up.

Laura Hovland (129)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 7:05 pm
I think if we were to 'hit the pavement' we would find that there are more aware people out there than we know, they just don't know what to do, or have the time or resources. There is a 5 * 10 foot IMPEACH BUSH sign just down the road from here at the bottom of a driveway, it has been there for months, there have been several letters to the editor in our very small town paper, which doesn't address anything more than 100 miles away, regarding impeachment. Politics is just such taboo in our society that people won't talk openly about it, and without talking, they don't realize that they are not the only ones who feel that way.
Let's break the ice, to hell with taboo.
I believe the time is ripe to hit the streets, and bring the availability of action to the people. I will be printing the Ten Reasons to Impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney pdf from AfterDowningStreet and collecting signatures in person, I have printed up fliers for the bulletin boards with web addresses on the bottom like tearable phone numbers. I don't know how well it will work, but it is well worth the effort.
Please join me, if we only succeed in getting people talking face to face, it is an important step in the direction of taking our country back.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 7:11 pm
GREAT idea, Laura (if I hadn't already sent you star, I'd send you another)!

Girl, you've got my pulse going.

Start a group! (We can't keep posting here forever.) I'll join! Anyone else?


Past Member (0)
Thursday May 24, 2007, 11:42 pm
Julia...wonderful point. Well taken.

Laura that is awesome. I also understand that there are supposed to be town hall meetings held across the country.

CodePink and The Occupation Project as well as afterdowningstreet should have the itinerary. Actualy all the organizations should have it.

That is the only way most meetings were going to happen as the media has a blackout on this topic. Only foreign, alternative and independent news are publishing the facts and promoting the many campaigns that are trying to get justice served upon the perpetrators and force impeachment...whether Congress wants it or not.

Let us pool our resources here. Cindy Sheehan did a circuit of town hall meetings. I am certain it is ongoing as all campaigns are getting increasingly more aggressive as government refuses to listen. Activists are also more determined than ever.

So, we need to get the itinerary and post it. Residents of the US can advertise and promote these meetings and be a strong pressence to silence hecklers and government spies that would try to disrupt and confuse the people.

I have to sign off for tonight. I will check in tomorrow night before I leave for the weekend.

We can create a resource and action thread on Project Pangaia. Cynthia and I have worked on 2 major impeachment threads. We can take it further there. Unfortunately we have had to close the group to members only as our increased activism demanded extra security. Everyone is welcome to join.


Linda J (160)
Sunday May 27, 2007, 6:43 am
hear hear to Patsy P. Love and Hugs Linda J and God Bless Our Troops.

Kim Daniels (7)
Saturday June 2, 2007, 3:01 pm
The United Snakes OF America is what it is called. How dare them.That is wrong. That would be nice to have and activism or we can protest against those snakes.All they doing is policing Iraq,get those troops out of Iraq because they will do anything. Pressure is against them.What the heck is Bush talking about War against Terrorism that is a lie is from Bush mouth. There is no such thing about War on Terrorism. All what he want is the Gas to rank the prices up and he wants Iraq to control. Killing those people in Iraq by blowing them up with there heads blown off and body parts.My friend was injured in Iraq.Those Troops will protect themselves if anybody gets in there way.Bush will not get them out because we are an easy Target.Talking about protecting this country.There is nothing safe out here because the terrorist are already in the United States anyway looking to plot on planes and transportation to kill people.They are not Arabs there are from the Africa countries and Asia,Turkey,India,London,Germany etc.Just like what happen with the 911 incident the next one will be worst because the Terrorist are here.That Homeland Security are full of it.Don't believe anything they say.I don't because we are living in the end Times now it will get worser than what it is.Kids are into the groups too Terrorist.That is sad for the kids to blow up people too.You can believe me or not it is true. The Government is full of it too.

David Cromie (6)
Monday June 4, 2007, 7:15 am
Just one more comment: I am surprised that ANYONE should believe that what is happening in Iraq is a 'war'!! A war on whom?
Let us get this straight, the whole enterprise is a grand 'smash and grab' raid on Middle Eastern oil. In furtherance of this objective, Bushco do not care who, or how many, gets killed in the process, nor are they very particular about which methods they use. This is no secret, as anyone familiar with neocon thinking will have realised, and the plan to invade was decided BEFORE Bushco took dishonest possession of the White House. Once this basic context is realised, it then becomes evident that all this talk of 'war', in any meaningful sense, is just so much propaganda, and a smokescreen for what is really being attempted in the Middle East.

David Cromie (6)
Monday June 4, 2007, 7:18 am
Blair is also in denial, but with the help of the BBC and a relatively independant national press, the people of Britain are not so easily fooled, thank goodness.

Cole Cordray (45)
Saturday June 9, 2007, 7:45 pm
David: it's war to the person on the ground, no matter which faction they may believe in. i agree with your comments re: bushco, but in all this wretched rhetoric, you seem to forget the little guy in uniform. that is how it goes. God how i learn to hate all you moralists who have the pat answer for everything. if only you could experience the sharp end for once. what a crying shame all your talent and intelligence is wasted in this endless morass of woe is me. have you comforted one who has lost a family member in this terrible 'war'? and if you did, were you thinking of them, or of how your ideology was justified? oh, if only you and some of the other's of your ilk could just journey with me one day anongst these folks. i would not expect you to change your political views, as i do share some of them, but i would hope you would just stop forgetting those who suffer - they are not numbers, they are people. suffering americans, british, iraqis, canadians (afghanistan)etc.
that is how i feel , God help me.


David Cromie (6)
Sunday June 10, 2007, 4:52 am
Cole, as an ex-serviceman (15 years in the Royal Navy), I do NOT forget the pawns in this evil Bushco 'game', which they would like the world to believe is a 'war on terrorism'. Nor, as someone who was born in N. Ireland, am I a stranger to terrorism, by both the Provisional IRA, and the various 'Loyalist' gangs, not to mention the British Army's, at times, inglorious participation, and the torture chambers run by the Royal Ulster Constabulary's Special Branch.

David Cromie (6)
Sunday June 10, 2007, 5:03 am
Finally, if you insist on calling the occupation of Iraq a 'war', then let us agree that it is a war on those who control a large percentage of the world's crude oil!! Iran would seem to be next on the list!! Nor should we ignore the fact that it is also, partly, a proxy war on behalf of the Zionists, against the Arab states who are opposed to the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory - see the long list of UN Resolutions, flouted by Israel since 1946, on this subject, and the vetos on other Resolutions by the US and Britain, mostly, during the same time period.

Cole Cordray (45)
Sunday June 10, 2007, 9:54 pm
i meant war as experienced by those involved on the ground in situ, not war as experienced by the political pawn movers. as far as being born in northern ireland, one can be born somewhere, and most likely is. if you get my meaning. there are so many players in this thing, that it is easy to forget (and as you have pointed out, you have not) the pawns, as it were. each night, David (that is my dear brother's name also) at 10pm, here on this semi-isolated army post in eastern oregon state, taps plays over the speakers thru out the area, and i am reminded aurally of my two tours in vietnam, i was very young, and how it has shaped my life. i guess in some fashion i was ruined, yet in others probably not. in any case, lest this drag on, thanks for being kind to me, as i sense you could have flamed me unmercifully. i just get so tired when pictures like these are posted without good provence, and we go on from there.

good night.

David Cromie (6)
Monday June 11, 2007, 5:37 am
Thanks for your reply, Cole, and you have my sympathy, Vietnam must have been hell! I was stationed in Olongopo, in the Philipines for a while during Vietnam, and saw what it was doing to some of those forced to serve in that war.

Ana Villarreal (3)
Wednesday June 13, 2007, 10:47 am
I just don't know what to say... We say we want peace and so we fight for peace. How can we fight for something that we've hardly ever been able to see or even want when the army itself has now become a breeding ground for wiping out people at a time. This is NOT the way our military is meant to be used!!!
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