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Christian Schools Shreds $20,000 in Literature Over 'Satanic' Peace Sign

World  (tags: Netherlands, human rights, religion, peace sign, education, freedoms, society, interesting, news, humans, children )

- 1682 days ago -
A Christian school in the Netherlands said it sent about $20,000 worth of student-created literature to the shredder after officials did research on Google and determined that a peace sign was a symbol used by Satanists.

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Animae C (514)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:47 pm

Eternal Gardener (745)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:57 pm
Over the top! Wasn't christianity itself perceived as occult only 2000 years ago?!

Lois Jordan (63)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:02 pm
Noted. Can't say it's the craziest thing I've read today....but it's tied for 1st place. Just nuts!

Rose Becke (141)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:12 pm
Peace is all I can say

Past Member (0)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:19 pm

Roger Skinner (14)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:53 pm
More proof that religion causes insanity.

Jason S (50)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:09 pm
Good posting, thanks

Sheila D (194)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 7:54 pm
Every time I think the fanatics have done something really over the top in the name of Christianity, they they out do themselves. What's scary about this is that Christian fanatics here may do the same thing...sigh!

Barb K (1687)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 10:58 pm
Hey, be careful what you say; one of your friends may be a Christian in more ways than one!
To Carrie: That's crazy! TYSM for posting!!

Susanne R (234)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 12:28 am
Satanic peace sign? Isn't that an oxymoron? You couldn't even make this stuff up! Burn the witches! Shred the papers! How about offering some level-headed guidance to misguided people?

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 1:05 am
The world is going totally mad.

Caroline S (78)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 1:09 am
Ha ha ha, thank you for the laugh!!!

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 3:23 am
Explains the measles outbreak in the Bible belt of the Netherlands.

Jonathan Harper (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:24 am

Gloria picchetti (304)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:00 am
All the school had to do was gather the books and put a sticker over the peace sign. They could have used a really strong one that could not be removed. The stickers could have had a beautiful portrait of Jesus and St. Francis with animals. It would have been so creative. The students would have learned how to problem solve instead of learning to wasteful and ignorant.

. (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:24 am
Noted. Thanks for some common sense Gloria. Sheesshh!

. (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:34 am
Crazy! Thanks for sharing, Carrie.

Lona Goudswaard (80)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 8:10 am
I'm Dutch, but hadn't heard about it so I had a look at the original article and the reactions to it here.
As this school, with 3000 pupils in 4 different towns, is the only in its kind, the Dutch see it as a storm in a tea-cup. Most Christians find it a rather amusing, though rather wasteful, incident. As one commentator said: This is so typically Dutch. The symbol has two meanings and of course we pick the negative one. Why can't we be positive for once. That sums it up nicely.

The article here doesn't mention that the Dutch newspaper was tipped by a tweet from one of the pupils. That gives me hope that the new generation isn't completely brainwashed yet.

Peggy A (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 9:26 am

Sheryl G (363)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 10:48 am
Oh pleeeazzzz... have they nothing better to do? How wasteful. Excellent comment Gloria P.

Gene Jacobson (290)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 10:51 am
"But the strict school does not allow any items that are considered to be debauchery."

Idiots. I consider all religious schools to be an affront to reason, realism and world peace. Since they all teach the same exclusionary (we have THE truth and you do not) crap that leads to intolerance, discrimination, genocide and war. They are what should be outlawed, free, secular public education should be the only kind accepted as a credential by employers and colleges. Those are the only students who come to an employer or a university with an open mind and an open heart both of which are necessary for success in any field but religion and right wing media. As Lona notes, these institutions really are relics because the generation coming up is not easily fooled and a whole lot smarter than these religious educators give them credit for. The internet in many ways is the great equalizer. Schools and religions can teach what they wish but their students have many opportunities to check and recheck what they are given as "gospel". And they do.

Mike H (252)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:04 am
So being peaceful is anti Christian? Looney tunes!

bob m (32)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 2:20 pm

Nats and flies boys and girls... you are up to your eyeballs in satanic immigration ..

Beth S (330)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 2:27 pm
Just doing some research on this and found some interesting things.

There may be a basis for the school to take that position. I realize Carrie is very anti-Chriistian, and the wacko tenets of Islam she'll defend. It's just not cool to agree with Christian teachings, but Muhammad saying that the sun sets in a mud puddle each day, that drinking camel's urine is a health tonic, and that sperm is created in the back of the chest, and many other weird things will undoubtedly motivate Carrie to try to explain away the far more weird and dangerous aspects of Islam.

Here's some interesting information about the peace symbol -- not saying that I believe any of it -- but wouldn't it be a little more open-minded to try to understand why these people believed and behaved this way, than just putting out there to make fun of?

Teach Peace Moment: Peace Symbol History

"Have you ever wondered where the peace symbol came from?

The peace symbol combines a circle, a vertical line, and downward sloping lines.

Throughout history the peace symbol was not always used in the spirit of love and service to humanity. For this reason, the Teach Peace Foundation logo is not a traditional peace symbol but people around the world holding hands.

A popular explanation of the peace symbol is that Gerald Herbert Holtom (1914 - 1985) created this symbol on February 21, 1958.1 At that time Holtom worked with the Direct Action Committee against Nuclear War. Holtom was a dedicated peacemaker and graduate of the Royal College of Arts. During World War II he worked on a farm in England as a conscientious objector. The BBC quoted Holtom, "I drew myself: the representative of an individual in despair, with hands palm outstretched outwards and downwards in the manner of Goya's peasant before the firing squad."2 The picture on the right shows one of Holtom's first sketches of the peace symbol. Opponents of the peace movement sometimes are thrilled to see the hands downward which symbolizes peasants being killed by a firing squad.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970), a philosopher, historian, mathematician, and a member of the Direct Action Committee against Nuclear War, supported Holtom's claim and aggressively promoted the arms down symbol. The arms down peace sign made its first public appearance in the United Kingdom during the 1958 Easter weekend Direct Action Committee anti-nuclear march from London to Aldermaston. Russell was the march organizer responsible for placing the arms down peace symbol on buttons and banners.

Russell's interest in the peace symbol becomes visible when you know he was a member of the British Fabian Socialist Society, a secret society advocating a New World Order. Russell wrote in his book The Impact of Science on Society that a "Black Death" or bacteriological warfare would be helpful every generation to cull the population. One of Russell's frustrations was war had proved to be disappointing in dramatically reducing populations.3 When you realize Russell supported both communism and peace without God, his alignment with all the New World Order tenets becomes visible. Specifically, he wanted to abolish God, abolish representative government, abolish private property, abolish food independence, abolish the family, and abolish most people as part of his anti-Christian crusade.

Russell downplayed his role and true interest in the peace symbol when he wrote, “It was invented by a member of our movement (Gerald Holtom) as the badge of the Direct Action Committee against Nuclear War, for the 1958 Aldermaston peace walk in England. It was designed from the naval code of semaphore, and the symbol represents the code letters for ND.'” The code ND for Nuclear Disarmament is shown on the right.4 The circle, representing the concept of total or complete, surrounds the N and D signifying total or complete nuclear disarmament.

Russell's primary interest in the symbol was to communicate defeat, despair, and disrespecting Jesus. Secret societies advancing the Great Plan enjoy seeing people, especially young children, wearing the peace symbol with the arms down because in their Luciferian religion they believe deception produces a dark energy helping to pave the way for the Antichrist.

American journalist and playwright Herb Greer adds support for the Holtom explanation. He reported, “I was actually there on and before the first Aldermaston march for which it was created. I visited Holtom, I saw the original sketches and discussed it with him.”

Ken Kolsbun, author of the book Peace: The Biography of a Symbol, reported that Holtom expressed regret in not designing the peace symbol with the joyful lifting of arms towards the sky.5 For most of Holtom's life he would draw only the upright peace symbol. Holtom requested that the upright peace symbol be placed on his tombstone in Kent, England. As shown by the picture of his tombstone, his wish was unfortunately ignored.6

Holtom's wish that the peace symbol connotation of despair be changed to joy is illustrated by the picture on the right. When the peace symbol is inverted the letter "N" becomes the semaphore code for "U" which could mean "universal" disarmament or the less popular but courageous "unilateral" disarmament.7

While it appears reasonable that the modern day peace symbol comes from Gerald Holtom, this logic fails to address the fact that the symbol has been used for evil both in modern times and for thousands of years.

This same symbol was used by Hitler's 3rd Panzer Division from 1941 to 1945. The image on the left is the regimental 3rd Panzer Division symbol. Soviet, Polish, and Hungarian citizens, having suffered from the Nazi massacres, undoubtedly struggled with Holtom’s use of the symbol as a thoughtful way to communicate peace. The symbol can also be found on some of Hitler's SS soldiers' tombstones.8

Another flaw in the Holtom creation story is the use of the symbol as an anti-Christian symbol by the Saracens as early as 711 A.D.9 For the Saracens, the image placed on their shields symbolized the breaking of the Christian cross. For some the broken cross was equated to a satanic symbol known as the raven's craw or witch's foot. While Holtom may not have known the historical meaning of the peace symbol, Bertrand Russell was a historian and member of the Fabian Society. A 1970 article in the American Opinion magazine claimed Russell knew the historical occult meaning and intentionally selected an "anti-Christian design long associated with Satanism."10

The fifth and final Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, Nero (born Lucius Domitius Ahenabarbus 37 - 68 AD), is remembered in history for persecuting Christians. Nero's rule was so wicked he even had his mother executed. The First Roman-Jewish War (66 - 70 AD) started during his reign and today the term "Nero Cross" is the symbol of the "broken Jew" or "broken cross." The most famous person believed to be crucified by Nero was the Apostle Peter. To symbolize humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ, Peter requested that he be crucified with his head toward the ground. As a result of Peter's death the upside down cross was used by early Christians as a positive symbol for peace.

The symbol of the upside down cross changes its meaning when the person on the upside down cross is no longer Peter but Jesus. Anti-religious and satanic groups use the "Nero Cross" or inverted "Latin Cross" to symbolize everything opposite of Christianity. Today this is clearly illustrated by "black metal" or heavy metal music lyrics and imagery that communicate anti-Christian sentiments.11 An album cover for the black metal group, Mayhem, is shown on the left. The first letter "M" in "Mayhem" and the last "m" depict the upside down cross. In addition to musicians, film makers have reinforced the notion that the upside down cross is an anti-Christian symbol as illustrated by The Omen in 1976 and The Exorcism of Emily Rose in 2005.

The symbol has also been used to communicate support for communism. Bertrand Russell once said: “There is no hope in anything but the Soviet way.” Governments--both those who supported communism and those opposed to it--have perceived benefits in aligning the peace symbol with communist ideology. For people like Bertrand Russell, the author of the 1927 essay Why I Am Not Christian, the symbol represented not only a pro-communism meaning but peace without God.12

The confusion about what the modern day peace symbol means is further clouded by the founder of the Church of Satan, Anton LaVey. LaVey used the symbol as the backdrop for his altar.13 Rudolf Koch's Book of Signs explains the downward pointed fork represents the death of man.14 Placed in the circle the symbol means the total death of all people which is the exact opposite of what Holtom worked to prevent with the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

While the anti-God, communist and death of man arguments are far from representative of the majority of people that carry or wear a peace symbol, they can frustrate the sincere efforts of peacemakers.

Today because many people carry the symbol without understanding the history, we miss an opportunity to address historical uses and move forward to reclaim the symbol for good.15

The Focus Fusion Society is honoring Holtom's by putting the peace symbol arms up.16

Unfortunately even the upward arms peace symbol is not problem-free. For example, the white racist group, National Alliance, uses the upward arm symbol shown on the right.17

When you see the peace symbol, with the exception of groups specifically promoting violence, the person displaying it is attempting to communicating a message of love. Rather than use the arms down or arms up peace symbol, communicating love with kindness is recommended.

By Dave Dionisi

Sources and additional information:

1Gerald Holtom, see The below is one of the first sketches of the peace symbol by Gerald Holtom. The first sketches are on display in the Commonweal Collection in the Bradford Peace Museum in England (see and note that Room 2 is dedicated to the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament movement).

There are a wide range of partially correct peace symbol explanations. For example, for a peacemaker during the Vietnam War, they may sincerely believe the symbol is an abstraction of a B-52 and therefore the symbol is signifying a protest of carpet bombing in Southeast Asia. Examining the symbol's meaning before the 20th century is necessary for a more complete understanding.

2See Holtom also wrote to Hugh Brock, editor of Peace News, explaining the genesis of his idea in greater depth: "I was in despair. Deep despair. I drew myself: the representative of an individual in despair, with hands palm outstretched outwards and downwards in the manner of Goya's peasant before the firing squad. I formalised the drawing into a line and put a circle round it." See

3See Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society, Unwin Hyman publishing and printed by Cox & Wyman Ltd in Reading, Berkshire, Great Britain, 1952. Reprinted by Routledge in 1998, p. 116.

4See the BBC report, World's best-known protest symbol turns 50 at


6Gerald Holtom asked to have the symbol in its upright form on his gravestone. That wish was ignored by the letter-cutter. See

7See the BBC report, World's best-known protest symbol turns 50 at

8See Nazi Panzer Divisional markings at

9Saracen is any person in the Middle Ages that professed the religion of Islam. See the Encyclopedia Britannica at


11Satan rir media (Satan Rides the Media), a 1998 Norwegian documentary by Torstein Grude explaining the anti-Christian nature of black metal music and specifically Varg Vikernes church arsons in Norway and murder of Mayhem band member Øystein Aarseth.


13Texe Marrs, Mystery Mark of the New Ages: Satan's Design for World Domination (Westchester, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1988), p. 109.

14Foreign Policy in Focus, A Sign of the Times, April 10, 2008 by Barry Miles online at The Book of Signs by Rudolf Koch published by Dover Publications, Inc. in 1950.

According to the diaries of Victor Klemperer, a Jewis man who survived the World War II in Dresden, in death notices of fallen German soldiers, their birth and death dates were preceded by a and , respectively, which, according to Nazi orthodoxy, were runic symbols of birth and death.

15See The message of love and unity can be powerful and for this reason the Apartheid regime in South Africa attempted to ban the peace symbol.

For additional information, see the Bertrand Russell archives see, Oliver Day Street’s, Symbolism of the Three Degrees (New York: George H. Duran Co., 1922), and Carl Liungman’s Dictionary of Symbols (New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 1991), p. 253.) and Other peace symbols are explained at

16See the Focus Fusion Society statement why they changed from an arms downward peace symbol to an arms upward peace symbol at

17Anti-Defamation Leaque (ADL) website online at The ADL maintains a database of symbols of groups advocating violence. The symbol is also known as the Yggdrasil" which is a symbol in Norse Mythology.

To access more Teach Peace Moments, click here." (in text on document page)

S J (130)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:12 pm
Thanks Carrie, LOL I like to read something insane.

Carrie B (306)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:32 pm
Beth S., you should get your facts straight before you make statements about other people. I am not anti Christian ~ I am a Christian. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools where I received an exceptional education and was not once exposed to abuse ~ nor did I know of any who were. I was also taught tolerance and acceptance of those who believed differently than I.

I AM anti hate, bigotry, and intolerance. I do not tolerate fools who spew hatred toward Muslims because of the actions of some. You and some of your friends seem to enjoy attacking all Muslims and those who believe that there are good and bad in every religion ~ including Christianity. Perhaps you would like to defend and explain those good Christians who protest at military funerals, or those who preach hate and intolerance against the LGBT community. The far right Christians in this country are responsible for many hateful and unconscionable acts.

I posted this article to show the unreasonable and uncalled for behavior by a group of Christians.

Freya H (357)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:49 pm
These dim bulbs need to get a life. If the peace symbol is Satanic, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a devil worshiper.

Beth S (330)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:32 pm

Your derision towards religion has, never to my knowledge, been aimed at Islam, yet you have spent an enormous amount of energy deriding Christians and "Zionists". I would say, much evidence to the contrary, you have exhibited a great deal of bigotry and one-sided understanding of many issues.

Going to Catholic school has made many Catholics anti-Christian, agnostics and atheists. I have quite a few nephews and nieces who attended Catholic schools and fall into those categories and many more still I know. So going to Catholic school is does not certify what one comes out as not bigoted against Christianity.

I AM ALSO AGAINST HATRED AND BIGOTRY. Islam -- the religion and ideology -- (to differential between Muslims) is EXTREMELY PRO-BIGOTRY. Need I cite the vast amount of suras which attest to the hatred for and violence against everyone not part of the Uma, and the call for Jihad -- violent war -- against them?

I have a number of good friends who are Muslims who unequivocally reject the deep and vast hatred in embedded in the very heart of Islam. They are people of good conscience and I guess, by orthodox Islamic standards, bad Muslims.

How many Christians are in the Westboro Babtist Church? It has FORTY (40) members. Not exactly the hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in the wiping out of all other religions to establish a global
Caliphate, to establish Dar al Islam, and bring EVERYONE, including you, under Sharia. Do some historical reading about the laws of Dhimmitude and paying a very high and humiliating tax called Jizya, and how those who refused were slaughtered outright. Not real pleasant stuff.

Yet, when soldiers come back to the U.K. from tours of duty in Afghanistan, the soldiers and their families are met by HUNDREDS of Muslims who deride them with hateful remarks and break the families' already broken hearts.

And, BTW, I don't know ANYBODY who condones what the Westboro Baptist @$$holes do, but I never see your name on anything that the MILLIONS of Muslims do that is horrendous and lacks an iota of humanity that has made the front pages of C2NN.

If you see me on the pages of Care2 bringing attention to a very small number of those acts, it is because of people like you, in fact, mostly because of YOU, Carrie, who constantly give Muslims a free ride, and disparage Christians and Jews. Your bigotry slimes forth for others to slip in.

This is not necessarily unreasonable behavior by this group of Christians in this article. It is clear that THEY have done their research and you haven't even begun to do yours.

Their actions were peaceful. They didn't beat the children, as would be done to children, along with a good dose of screaming and humiliation in most Muslim schools in a comparable situation. They made a decision that I'm sure was painful for them and took much research and weighing to come to. Nobody was harmed by this, and perhaps even the children understood, I hope -- potentially the ones who could have been harmed.

But that doesn't seem to matter to you. Just putting these people down is the most important thing to you, and having people who know virtually nothing as you do call them idiots and other derogatory remarks. That is what you aim for, and by extension the delegitimization of Christianity.

And if that is NOT your intention, Carrie, you'd better seriously rethink your strategy and posts.

Roger G (154)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:50 pm
what a bunch of morons !
be they christian, muslims or jews morons are morons whatever their religion !

JL A (281)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:10 pm
My understanding of the Bible and teaching from Biblical scholars led me to believe Jesus prefers treatment of people compared to idolizing symbols and giving them unwarranted power. This action by these schools calling themselves Christian is in keeping with the concerns Jesus expressed in the verse about stop paying attention to the speck in someone else's eye and be more concerned about the log in your own.

Beth S (330)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:12 pm
JL.A. I'd say that's a good summation.

Kit B (276)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:25 pm

Beth - If you are here to demonstrate your knowledge, then using Bertram Russel in your copy and paste was an error. Russel unlike Carrie was an atheist. All religions deserve heaping amounts of derision and disbelief. Other than a social club, people can gather the same personal comfort without the trappings and certainly without the comments of self induced superiority. Though your own open hate of all things Muslim is well known.

"Religion is based primarily upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly as the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.” - Bertram Russel

Kit B (276)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:27 pm

“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence”
― Bertrand Russell

This school, like anything that becomes too convinced they and they are right, is delusional.

JL A (281)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:29 pm
shows an example of a patriot showing a response in keeping with Jesus's teachings--the school in this article was not following them and Gloria provided a better solution if the stated concern was their true motive vs. the equivalent of praying on a street corner instead of under a bushel. Thanks for agreeing that the school was out of line Beth.

Kit B (276)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:33 pm

It is really necessary to attack the person that posted the story to make a point? I think not.

JL A (281)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:34 pm
Afterthought--the Nazi swastika was based on an ancient pagan symbol--are their schools empty of all books showing a swastika too?

Carrie B (306)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:03 pm
Beth S., I have no derision toward any religion, which seems to be the reason you have decided to attack me personally. It's my acceptance of other people's beliefs (or rather my belief that they have a right to believe what they do, including you) that seems to gall you. You claim that you are "against hatred and bigotry," which is the first thing hateful bigots say before they attack.

Before you start whining about Sharia and other Islamic laws you might take some time and read the Bible, specifically Exodus and Leviticus. These books spell out exactly how Jews have to live, even telling them what to eat and not eat. The problem is that these rules were declared thousands of years ago for a small group of people living in the desert. Those rules were necessary to survival back then but are totally absurd today. Yet many Jews cling to them just because someone wrote them down, regardless of whether hey make any real sense today. Do you think this makes Hasidic Jews evil?

And just who are these hundreds of millions of Muslims who want to wipe out all other religions? I'm sure you read in school about something called the "Crusades." You know, armies of European Christians invading the Middle East to "free" it from the infidels and put the area under Christian rule. And of course, let's not forget a thousand years of pogroms against the Jews just because they weren't/aren't Christians. Any Muslims I know think the jihadists are a bunch of terrorists, just as we do. Note I use the word "we," not "you."

And I distinctly remember the Bible describing how the People of Israel virtually wiped out several civilizations so they could take Canaan for themselves. They did it again in 1948, kicking the Palestinians out of Palestine because the Babylonians did it to them eons before. If they really wanted to get even, they should have taken over Iraq instead displacing truly innocent people. And the Israeli government shouldn't treat the people of Gaza and the West Bank like slaves , then cry "antisemitic" when they protest the mistreatment.

As for the Westboro Baptist Church, they are not Christians. If they were, they would follow the pacific teachings of Christ and stop spewing their bigotry and hatred of gays for the cameras.

The Dutch did not do their research. If they had, they would have realized right away that the peace sign never had anything to do with satanism. Once again, a bunch of overprotective parents overreacted and decided to countermand what their children wanted.

Fact is, NO ONE is innocent here. There are "evil" Muslims and "evil" Jews and "evil" Christians. It's been that way for thousands of years and it's that way today. If you disagree with my opinions, that's your right, but you had better look in the mirror before you start calling me ~ or anyone else ~ a bigot.

Kit B (276)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:34 pm

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus 341 BCE – 270 BCE

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
-- George Bernard Shaw

And the best -

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.
--George Carlin


Carrie B (306)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:40 pm
Thank you Kit for putting things in another perspective.

Carrie B (306)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:41 pm
Now let's all get ready to celebrate Friday the 13th!

JL A (281)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 7:47 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Carrie because you have done so within the last day.

Alexa R (319)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:36 pm
Excellent solution Gloria!

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:40 pm
There are stupid extremists everywhere, we can see proof of that here on a daily basis. Any nationality, ethnic group, religion, philosophy etc has got its fair share of them.

TomCat S (129)
Friday September 13, 2013, 1:49 am
I support Carrie on this one. I have seen in several comments that she recognizes that neither Christianity nor Islam preaches hate. The hate comes from Republican Supply-side pseudo-Christianity and right-wing pseudo-Islam. It is the right-wing extremists, falsely claiming both religions that are the problem. The destruction of literature displaying the peace sign is a symptom of that hate.

JL A (281)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:42 am
Excellent observations TomCat.
Extremes do tend to be problematic which is why such articles are deemed newsworthy for posting and would not be expected to be about more than one religion at a time; thus topical comments would also only address one at a time.

JL A (281)
Friday September 13, 2013, 9:25 am
The Crusades was based on the Bible's scriptures ordering followers to establish God's kingdom on earth. Every religion has some followers and detractors who highlight certain scriptures out of context that are in conflict with their authoritative document's primary and central messages.

Gillian M (218)
Friday September 13, 2013, 9:33 am
TomCat, there are 109 statements in the Koran to kill the non-believer ie a kufir or non-Muslim. In fact, the word Islam means submission and the idea is that all people are required to submit to Allah. If you do not then you must be killed or pay tax, jizya. Jews had to pay that to live in many different lands to the king of that kingdom, an example is to the German government for the right to live in Berlin.

Carrie has never condemned this hate drive ideology and has often show a strong dislike of "Zionists" and Israel which is translated to Jews. In other words Carrie is not telling anyone the truth when she claims that she does not show any derision towards any religion. Although derision is a strange word to use and in that context as she shows contempt for Judaism.

a : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

b : a state of being laughed at or ridiculed : a state of being derided

2 : an object of ridicule or scorn

As for being a Catholic, it is one of the worst when it comes to intolerance. Should Carrie commit the crime of entering a Protestant church, she will be condemned to eternal damnation. Having met with both Italian and Irish Catholics and priests, I understand the hatred and condemnation that they have for any non-believers. That the Coptic Christians are an older form of Christianity and thereby likely to be closer to the original version is ignored.

Susanne R (234)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:22 am
Kudos and green stars to JL A. and Tomcat.

Tomcat said: "The destruction of literature displaying the peace sign is a symptom of that hate."

In this particular case, it's also a form of censorship. The old adage still rings true: "Actions speak louder than words."

Kit B (276)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:36 am

This article is about one school and their very poor ability to handle a situation. This is not about Christianity or Islam and it most certainly does not address Judaism.

Personally, I could care less what you believe, whether or not you make a choice to believe in one or all of the
pantheon of gods. No one religion is better than another each have years of humans rights abuses to answer for. I do find the constant yammering about Christians being better than, to be entirely boring and missing any form of proof. People make a choice in life, they make choices every day about being decent or not. Religion is not the guardian of mortality.

Alexandra - I have nothing to convert you to, I don't care what you find comfortable, or what owns your bag of magic. FYI - George Carlin was a well known comedian.

Why are you people unable to read and respond to the actual content of the article. Carrie did not write this article. Must you always need to toss your sanctimonious crap on someone. Your lives must be miserable and you have a need to share your misery.

Kit B (276)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:43 am

Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

-Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Judge other religions for not following Christ:

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


Kit B (276)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:46 am

The only thing being "dissed" on this thread before Beth decided to make this a personal witch hunt, was the school and the ideas promoted by that thinking. Too bad you came here to continue a stupid crusade and not read and comment on the actual content of the article before you.

Susanne R (234)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:51 am
Kudos and a green star to Kit, who said "This article is about one school and their very poor ability to handle a situation."

By giving in so easily to "bullying," they're setting a very poor example for their students --both the bullies AND their victims. As far as these "Holy Wars" are concerned, students should be learning about the tragedy of wars long past, not engaging in or creating fodder for new ones.

JL A (281)
Friday September 13, 2013, 11:19 am
You cannot currently send a star to Kit ir Susanne because you have done so within the last day.

Carrie B (306)
Friday September 13, 2013, 11:34 am
First I was being attacked for not attacking ALL Muslims , now I am being attacked for having been raised Catholic. That certainly does show the intolerance of a few who have taken this thread and completely ignored the subject ~ instead turning it into a "Carrie is evil" topic.

G.M., I don't know where you get your information about Catholicism being intolerant. I was never taught anything but love and acceptance of those practicing other faiths or not practicing any faith. As far as being condemned to hell for entering a church other than Catholic ~ you are wrong there too. I was taught God resides in all houses of worship. I have attended services in synagogues as well as different Protestant faiths. While in high school, I remember a discussion in my Philosophy class which was taught by a priest ~ we talked the many different non Catholic services we, as Catholics, had attended and the different ways people worshiped and showed their love for the same God.

Thank You Kit, J.L. TomCat, and Susanne for your insightful comments about this story.

Now if anyone would like to comment on this article ~ please do so, but please stop the personal attacks on me and all those who do not believe as you.

Alexa R (319)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:54 pm
G M. (213) Friday September 13, 2013, 9:33 am
Carrie has never condemned this hate drive ideology and has often show a strong dislike of "Zionists" and Israel which is translated to Jews. In other words Carrie is not telling anyone the truth when she claims that she does not show any derision towards any religion. Although derision is a strange word to use and in that context as she shows contempt for Judaism.

a : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

b : a state of being laughed at or ridiculed : a state of being derided

2 : an object of ridicule or scorn

That the Coptic Christians are an older form of Christianity and thereby likely to be closer to the original version is ignored.

Exactly Gillian, the Coptic Christians often get totally ignored, even their suffering and persecution. I quote:

The word 'Copt' comes from the Greek word 'Aigyptos', meaning Egyptian.

"As a denomination they originated in the city of Alexandria, one of the most faithful, respected, and fruitful cities during the Apostolic Period. Proudly, the Coptic Christians acknowledge and herald John Mark, (author of the Gospel of Mark), as their founder and first bishop sometime between A.D. 42 - A.D. 62. The Coptic Church was actually involved in the very first major split in the Church, well before there was such a thing as "Roman" Catholicism, and it was also well before the East/West split."

The Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of churches, which has been a distinct church body since the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christological theology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The precise differences in theology that caused the split with the Coptic Christians are still disputed, highly technical, and mainly concerned with the nature of Christ. The foundational roots of the Church are based in Egypt, but it has a worldwide following.

According to tradition, the church was established by Saint Mark, an apostle and evangelist, in the middle of the 1st century (approximately AD 42). The head of the church and the See of Alexandria is the Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy See of Saint Mark. The See of Alexandria is titular and nowadays the Coptic Pope seat is Saint Mark's Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in the Abbassia District in Cairo.

As of 2012, about 10% of Egyptians belonged to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.

The early Church suffered persecution under the Roman Empire, and there were intermittent persecutions after Egypt became a Muslim country.

Modern Copts claim that they are still disadvantaged and play a lesser part in Egyptian public life than their numbers justify. There are still occasional violent clashes between Copts and Muslims.

Firsts for the Coptic Church include the first specifically Christian educational establishment in the School of Alexandria and the start of Christian monasticism.

Coptic services take place in the very ancient Coptic language (which is based on the language used in the time of the Pharaohs), together with local languages. The liturgy and hymns remain similar to those of the early Church.

The Church is ecumenical in outlook, and was a founder member of the World Council of Churches in 1948. The word 'Copt' comes from the Greek word 'Aigyptos', meaning Egyptian.


JL A (281)
Friday September 13, 2013, 8:47 pm
To help people coming to read and comment on the post, this is an accurate summary of the story those of us showing respect for others are discussing (and that was posted to help guide those not choosing to actually read the post):

"A Christian school in the Netherlands said it sent about $20,000 worth of student-created literature to the shredder after officials did research on Google and determined that a peace sign was a symbol used by Satanists."


Susanne R (234)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 1:11 am
Well said, JL A. I don't understand these personal attacks on Carrie. She posted a true story and was immediately described as "anti-Christian" and as having a "dislike for Zionists" without ever having added a personal comment! This was a news story published by a credible source! Common courtesy dictates that we remain on topic and treat each other with respect and civility. There will always be differences of opinion. We're here to learn and, hopefully, help to facilitate positive change. Religion is and probably always will be a controversial topic, but let's not shoot the messenger for providing us with legitimate information. She didn't include her own "spin" on this story and didn't criticize any religion. Kit, JL A., and everyone who defended Carrie on these unprovoked attacks are absolutely correct in their assessments.

JL A (281)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 3:50 pm
I don't understand such disrespect and uncivil behavior either Susanne--definitely not my understanding of choices consistent with the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity.

Tommy S (11)
Tuesday September 17, 2013, 2:52 am
I had intended to not to bother commenting on this time wasting superfluous post until I noticed your comment had been removed
I totally agree about the islamic dawa thing and what I find surprising is that if your enlightening post was removed and the nonfactual (dawa) post allowed to remain.
It does make one start to cogitate on the possibility that there are vested interests at work here.Free speech is only free if it applies to everyone otherwise we will end up as automatons with lots in common with the islamic world .

JL A (281)
Tuesday September 17, 2013, 7:26 am
Tommy--it wasn't what you imply was factual data as reason for removal but content that was a personal attack in violation of the Code of Content along with violating basic standards of respect for others, including others who disagree or with whom you disagree.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday September 17, 2013, 7:28 am

I disagree with the comment by Tommy S. When a comment is removed, and not many are, that comment was constructed not to address the topic but rather in some way was in complete violation of the Care2 code of conduct.
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