Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:55 am
Is this entire world going completely bonkers?

Saturday July 5, 2008, 3:46 am
It seems, from the article, that although it wasn't right to force the students, the parents are making this about it being a "Muslim thing", they are playing heavily on the anti-Muslim sentiments that are so prevalent in the UK. I have to wonder if they would have reacted the same way if the teacher had demanded the students burn incense and meditate before a statue of Buddha.
Nemo

Saturday July 5, 2008, 3:59 am
Yes, I wonder too, what the reactions would have been, had the teacher demanded Muslim students to burn incense and meditate before a statue of Buddha. Bet she would be gone with a new identity by now...

To become a Muslim, it is enough to say the shahaddah in front of a sufficient number of witnesses. It is only a small step from "now I'll show you how to pray to Allah and you do it after me" to "now I'll show you what the shahaddah is, and you'll do it after me."

I would not want to pray to Allah, let alone be demanded to.

It is difficult these days to criticize Islam or Islam-related issues, as long as such things occur. Please also read and note this if you haven't yet:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/205173323/794116

Saturday July 5, 2008, 7:28 pm
I think you're right Andreas, if it had been the other way around, that teacher would have been history, and no doubt hiding for her life.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:57 am
That is an abomination. It is akin to forced conversion. Islam forbids that. The RE Teacher should be sacked and the school severely reprimanded for this violation of the rights of people of other faiths. Afterall, it is the school's duty to check on what is going on in the classrooms. Had this happened in a Christian School, there would be sreeming for Jihad by the Muslims.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:57 am
By the way. Muslims DO burn Kemian (incense)

Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:13 am
I don't see how the parents are making this "about being a Muslim thing" - I considered heir comments to be perfectly reasonable.
If they were my kids - I would be furious!

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:00 am
Yes, their comments are perfectly reasonable, I just can't shake the feeling that the reaction isn't about the kids being forced or given detention, but about the fact that it was a Muslim practice the students were forced into and given detention for refusing. Teachers tend to follow a specific methodology when teaching, and I think we can rather safely assume that the teacher use the same tool when teaching about other religions as well. That does raise the question of why the students refused, and why it made the media at all. On th one hand, a student has the right to refuse a religious practice that is against his own belief, on the other hand a student is also obligated to complete an assignment given by a teacher. The students should have refused on religious grounds which would have made the detention unlawful, but they didn't, which actually made the detention legal.

That is why I suspect that this is about a prejudice against Islam and Muslim practices, rather than a righteous reaction against the students being forced and punished.

Perhaps I should have pointed to the media as the one making it about Islam. There really is no news here - just a sensationalist bone aimed at playing into anti-Muslim/Islam sentiments.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:28 am
"obligated to complete an assignment given by a teacher."
In other words: "have to follow orders". A Bit like School soldiers.
Don't get me wrong: I don't want to ridicule what you said or even push you in the negative corner, all I want is to show that sometimes nonviolent non-coopertaion is the thing to do.
Resisting an idiotic order is applaudable!
It is not up to the kids to teach the teacher and dialectically argument why they won't do it. The assignment was foolish and simply wrong.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:11 am
So you are saying that if a student thinks a math assignment is silly or foolish, he/she should practice civil obedience? Of course he/she could do that, but that should also have consequences in the form of either lower grades or as in this case detention. I honestly don't see how the assignment is in any way wrong.

It's clear that the teacher wanted to impart some sort of understanding through practical instruction. That is a method used in many disciplines in education f.i chemistry, biology and physics, where laboratory assignments are a natural part of the methodology, i.e learning by doing.

I agree that thinking for oneself and nonviolent non-cooperation is part of what one should both teach and encourage in school, but there are other ways of practicing one's democratic rights than refusing to wear Muslim head-gear for a day or say a simple Muslim prayer just because one finds it silly or, as I suspect was the case, a prejudice the students had been taught at home.

The correct way of practicing one's democratic (and religious rights) would have been to refuse on the grounds of religious belief. This is something the *parents* should have taught their kids. There are right and wrong ways to exercise one's civil rights, and the parents have clearly failed to teach their children this. The student are 11-12 - I was able to refuse saying grace before meals and sing Christian hymns at compulsory morning gatherings when I was 7, on the grounds that I was an atheist, and yes, I did put it that way, because that's what my parents taught me. This was respected by the school. All I needed was a signed affidavit from my parents the next day. I never sang or said one Christian prayer in Elementary or Middle School. Not even during Religious Education Class. I had to be present, but I never had to participate through singing or praying.
Nemo

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:28 am
Come one, Nemo. Practising worship is not the same as a math assignment!
Perhaps you don't understand this being an atheist.
Deputy Headmaster Keith Plant said the teacher has given her version of the incident but he declined to elaborate.

According to a statement from the Cheshire County Council on behalf of the school: “Educating children in the beliefs of different faith is part of the diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is essential to understanding.

“We accept that such teaching is to be conducted with some sense of sensitivity.”

And that is the point I will stick to. There is always an outcry for "Islamophobia" about the parents' comments, whenever such things happen. But Islam (better: its practical application) is anything but tolerant towards other religions. Hence such "practical demonstration" can very quickly be viewed as bowing down, not only with your body.

SUCH demonstrations only do harm. To either side.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:07 am
Note news story.... I think we are doing the same thing by giving religion a stake in government in our country. Bush is now handing out big $$$ to churches HE likes, but not others... basically only those that support him.



The separation between church and state has disappeared.



What if a Muslim is elected President and he gives only Muslim churches money from your tax dollars...


This is a very dangerous road we are going down, where religion may be in charge of government and in control of it. Which religion do you want controlling you?

Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:29 am
Andreas:
"Come one, Nemo. Practising worship is not the same as a math assignment!
Perhaps you don't understand this being an atheist."

In a teaching situation it is exactly the same. As far as we can deduce the teacher is not a Muslim. There wasn't talk about PRACTICING Islam or being forced to practice Islam, but to complete an assignment given in a Religious Education Class, a legal and compulsory part of the school's curriculum, just as a Math assignment would be or a laboratory assignment in Chemistry. The student would have had every right to refuse had they based them on their to religious freedom. But they didn't, and that they didn't is the fault of the parents, for not teaching them. I am not an atheist - I was as a child, mostly because my parents were, but that is beside the point, my defense of the teacher is not based on my religious beliefs or lack thereof, but on the view that

1. the students should have refused, not just to refuse or based on prejudice, which I think is clear from the article that they did, but on religious grounds.
2. this is not about general religion. This is about Islam, and from what I read in the article the majority of the parents are upset because their children were required to complete an assignment that had to do with Islam. This view is further strengthened by what has been said by some comments:"Had this happened in a Christian School, there would be screaming for Jihad by the Muslims.", "if it had been the other way around, that teacher would have been history, and no doubt hiding for her life." There is a tendency to a. single out Islam as bad and extreme and b. speak about Islam and Muslims in a generalizing and derogatory manner that I find unacceptable. To me it's loud and clear in that article. as well as here in this thread (Not by you though :-)).

Because it is about Islam, and not general religion, the teacher was right to punish the students (and the parents) for their prejudice.

As I said in my other post, there are correct and incorrect ways of exercising one's civil rights. Refusing a legal and compulsory assignment based on prejudice is not the correct way. Those student could have gotten out of that assignment scot free had they done it right. That they didn't know is not their fault, but that of the parents, so those parents should really be very silent, because all they are doing is exposing their own prejudice and failure as parents.
Nemo

Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:28 pm
The nuns did this to so many of us when I attended Catholic schools.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:30 pm
I think this is deliberate "scare propaganda". Oooooh, those Evil Muslims are gonna TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!! Ooooooh, scarey!!!

This same sort of thing pops up every once in a while. It generally turns out to be either a complete fabrication; or a distortion of what actually was said and done.

The people who want you to be scared of "Evil Muslims", have an agenda of their own. They are trying to hold onto their POWER by making you scared.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:46 pm
How reliable is the "Daily Mail"? Is this actually a responsible piece of reporting?
I suspect the REAL story is somewhat different. It sounds like something someone would exaggerate, for effect. Especially someone who was paranoid about other religions, "foreigners", etc.
If true, of course, it would be monstrous. But, without knowing more than what is laid down here, I very much suspect the REAL story is being buried under mounting hysteria.
The reason I think that, is because there have been SIMILAR anti-Muslim "Muslims are ruthlessly propagating their faith in the West" allegations in the past, that have turned out to be quite, quite untrue.

This sounds to me very much like those irresponsible articles, "Barack Obama is a secret Muslim whose aim is to put the US under sharia law", or something like that.

Monday July 7, 2008, 12:47 am
So let's attack the source now?
"The school's subject leader in RE, ALISON PHILLIPS is understood to be staying away from the school until the furore dies down" (sic.)

Feel free to ask to the headmaster, David Black:

Alsager School
Hassall Road
Alsager
Stoke On Trent
England
ST7 2HR

Telephone: 01270 871100
Fax: 01270 871139
E-mail: admin[at]alsagerschool.co.uk

It might also interest you, that
"Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, the Lord Chief Justice, suggested that aspects of sharia should be adopted in Britain.
Lord Phillips has said that Muslims in Britain should be able to use sharia law to decide financial and marital disputes."

source:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2242340/Muslims-in-Britain-should-be-able-to-live-under-Sharia-law,-says-top-judge.html

;)

Monday July 7, 2008, 3:03 am
Quick update:
"They'd never done it before and they were supposed to do it in another language." (sic. Source: the Telegraph)

So it was even Arabic I guess, what other "other" language could it have been at a Brit school?

Another things to consider: Taking into account, that in Iran the minimum age for marriage is 9 (!), i think kids of twelve can already be considered "baligh" (mature) to serve as witnesses during Shahadah.

That in return means that this little "demonstration" would have made the kids all Muslims!
So after lesson, most of the kids would have become apostates - and we all know how deeply beloved apostates are...

Monday July 7, 2008, 5:35 am
I get stuff on Care2 all the time, from people who are TAKEN IN by, and pass on, scare propaganda of various kinds.

And it seems, usually, to involve either Mexican immigrants, or Muslims -- in other words, "aliens", "the other", that people may {instinctively, almost, unless they think about it}, look at with more suspicion than others of their neighbors.

You wouldn't believe how much Scare Propaganda I've had to deal with! Lots and lots of it around Obama these days. Yes, on Care2 also -- among people I would expect to know better.

Ok, so the "Telegraph" has the story too. I would like to know if the "Guardian UK" has it in the same form.

The fact that this was supposed to have happened at one of the "top schools" makes me suspicious that the incident did not happen as told. What I suspected when I first read it, was, that some fundamentalist Christian parents heard about a class exercise that was quite "normal", {not as described}, and blew it all out of proportion, started screaming about it, and perhaps making up sensational or exaggerated parts, because it involved a different religion from their own, one they felt great antipathy towards.

Then British "yellow journalism" picked the story up and spread it, because it served THEIR interests.

Of course, I COULD be wrong. We all have to make our own judgements on things.

Of course, if they story was as it is told, it WAS a monstrous infringement.

I just smell a rat. But, as I said, I could be wrong.

I don't think a teacher in a "top school" would act that way. Unless she went suddenly crazy. Which is possible. I just don't think we are hearing another side.

Why believe instantly everything you read in the papers?

I will stick by my judgement, that someone {IN THE NEWSPAPERS, NOT ON CARE2!} has an AGENDA in promoting stuff that makes Muslims look like they are power-mad and "taking over". We don't have to instantly believe -- or dis-believe -- such stuff when in comes in. ANYthing tending that way, I reserve the right to be SKEPTICAL about!
==========================================

FURTHERMORE:
This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Sharia Law and the Lord Chief Justice. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Is anyone suggesting that the teacher was a Muslim and was secretly trying to convert all the kids to Islam? That is SO ridiculous.....

Of course, the teacher is being kept away for a while, as all the slander and controversy swirls around.... that is perfectly normal.

I do not have time or inclination to write the Headmaster of the school. But thank you for providing that info. WHY DOESN'T THE NEWSPAPER PRINT WHAT THE HEADMASTER HAS TO SAY? Yellow journalism?

Is there something sinister about having the kids learn a few words of Arabic??? I wouldn't mind if MY kid learned some Arabic in school.... but then, I am not xenophobic or fundamentalist Christian......

As far as the kids being suspended..... I don't think we know ALL THE FACTS here. Maybe the kids were rude to the teacher or something. I DON'T FEEL THAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD ALL THE FACTS OF THE CASE. It sounds to me so VERY UNLIKELY, so HYSTERICAL in fact, that I think the events as described exactly, here, are EXTREMELY improbable to have happened just that way.

OF COURSE I attack the source! I keep saying, IF this had happened, it would certainly be a Bad Thing. No doubt about it.
I just think this story smells like rotten fish. I have a right to that opinion.
I think this story was "developed" by people who want to smear and slander Muslims at any opportunity. That is because it is so similar to OTHER stories that have been PROVEN FALSE. {See, for example, the website Obama has created to deal with rumors about his "Madrassa" and other lies and smears about his being "Muslim", which is a fine thing to be, but it happens that he is NOT}
This story has written all over it, that Muslims are power-mad, sneaky, crazy, and trying as in the Middle Ages, to wholesale convert Christians whether the Christians like it, or are aware of it, or not.
WHAT ARRANT NONSENSE!!!! WHAT VICIOUS, MINDLESS STEREOTYPES!!!!

Did you believe there were WMDs in Iraq, just because the newspapers said so?
Do you believe every source, every paper, EVERY blog, every tabloid?
Do you believe that "Bat Boy" exists? {A notorious character in an American tabloid paper, I don't know if you know that in Britain or other countries?} Well, I put this story about at the level of "Bat Boy" for credibility......{half-boy, half-bat, discovered in a cave....}

Monday July 7, 2008, 5:52 am
Andreas, your last statement, I am sorry, completely leaves the world of logic behind.
What does the minimum age for anything in a foreign country, Iran, have to do with this case?
Are you saying the kids would have been all made Muslims without knowing it -- and then set up to be killed {by any and all Muslims in the world, I guess}, for not practicing the Muslim faith?

Barring what might have happened during the Middle Ages, when Christians ALSO made very suspect "forced conversions" on non-Christian children {there are historical records of this}:
Is there any precedent anywhere in Islam, for a teacher sneakily and without anybody knowing, "converting" a group of his or her charges? of even wanting to do such a thing? of any Muslim organisation that recognises such "conversion"?????
This is such a warped fantasy.........!!!!!!
This is specifically what I mean, when I use the term "HYSTERIA" to describe the story. The story ITSELF, casts doubt on sources for something so UNreal. It is also specifically what I meant, when I said, FEAR-inducing.
Gee, you can't send your kid to a "top school", send them out a Christian in the morning, returning as a Muslim in the evening, and an Apostate ready to be murdered by Muslim Death Squads at night.

LET'S GET REAL, SHALL WE???????

Monday July 7, 2008, 6:24 am
LETS GET REAL, BARB, RIGHT!
a) have I ever yelled at you? Then why do you? Let's keep it real.
b) What does the minimum age for anything in a foreign country, Iran, have to do with this case?
I am not implying ANYTHING of the sort that the teacher deliberately wanted to sneka the kids into Islam. Now you are being plain paranoid.
But the age of maturity in Islam is the age of sexual maturity. That is why I have brought that Iranian law into this, because it proves, that in Islam one can be mature at an age as young as NINE. So with these kids being TWELVE they can be considered "mature" in the Islamic sense.

CAN YOU FATHOM THIS SO FAR? - FINE!
(See how offensive yelling can be?)

That in return means that - whether knowingly or not knowingly - the teacher would have turned the kids officially into Muslims (or has?).

Summary: I DON'T FRIGGING CARE WHICH MUSLIM ORGANISATION RECOGNISES SUCH CONVERSIONS OR NOT! I ALSO DO NOT WANT TO IMPLY THEY'LL BE HUNTED DOWN FOR APOSTACY. But fact is: they COULD.
I was merely making a point.

SO KEEP IT REAL BARB AND STOP YELLING LIKE A HYSTERICAL NUT!

Thank you for your comprehension!

Monday July 7, 2008, 10:40 am
If the prayer the RE Teacher made them recite was the Shahaddah, then those kids are now, as far as Islam is concerned, bonafide Muslims and make no mistake about that - and Apostacy carries the death penalty. Making the students wear islamic head gear was an infringement of their rights as members of other (or none) faiths'

Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:04 am
Some hail teacher accused of burning crosses on arms

Wednesday July 9, 2008, 12:11 am
Blue Bunting, I followed the link you gave and read the story as well as the comments. Thanks you. Of course injuring a child (or an adult for that matter) should be considered a felonious act. That the injury (burn) was in the form of a cross (which I don't see as there is a circular injury right above it as well) should not really be the issue - the injury should be. What the RE Teacher did in the case under discussion here, was also a form of injury. Noone has the right to force their beliefs on unwilling subjects and especially not on other people's children. It is perfectly ok to learn about other religions in order to foster better understanding between the people who share this world.

What appalled me about the comments left on that other story (and here too to some extent) was the need of the commenters to use vulgar, abrasive, offensive etc language in order to make their point. What these people don't seem to realise is the fact, that THEY are trying to ram THEIR beliefs (or non-beliefs) down peoples throat. Being vulgar, belittleling other people's belief system etc shows only that they are uncouth. One should be able to discuss all sorts of topics in a civilized manner. IMHO

Wednesday July 9, 2008, 9:57 am
Marena, while I agree with you about the injury being an issue, so is the belief system(s) that caused the injury: radical religious fundamentalism.

I attended parochial schools for many years and was more than happy to get out from under the yoke of what I consider, now, to be radical religious belief systems imposed on me and other students.

You've read about cruel nuns and priests, I'm sure, and, I assure you, many of those stories are absolutely true.