Hi, I'm new to this forum and have been rumaging around awhile and found this a challenging question. So it conjures up to me:
Is anything completely knowable? Does a supreme being exist if it cannot be proven through my life experience on earth? It is different from an atheist, who doesn't just question the existence, but flat out denies the existance of a supreme being called God.
Personally, being a Christian, I find both leaving me somewhat in despair that "is this all there is? So let's break out the booze and....." (song of the 70s) I prefer to have higher hopes/expectations and look forward to following Christ in His resurrection to everlasting life.
Debra, you pose interesting questions. I may offer some new perspective and invite you to consider what I am writing with an open mind. I appreciate your honesty and I will respond in the best way I can.
You may have made some assumptions that you have supported and never questioned in certain ways thruout your life. We all do it.
I invite you to consider that your primary identity may be mistaken. This is part of a mistaken perception about what or whom God is. It is no wonder God gets ranked right along with Santa Clause, Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy as another myth to be debunked in the quest for reality.
In the bible, which I consider is a collection of misunderstood stories often edited and contradictory, God is often portrayed as seeming to be in a body, and is often equated with the Christ. But what if God is not a body, which means, if you are to accept that you are made in his image, instead of Him being made in yours, that you both are something else. Consider the isea that your actual being, the "thing" that gives your dust and juice or cells life is a spirit of attraction of whatever, like to like, molecule to molecule, cell to cell, and so on, or a simple spirit of peaceful being in Love. We don;t really know what this attraction is, but we know it by its effects, kind if like gravity or the universe or the knowledge that we are alive at all. So we may agree that we don't quite know what God is, but we know him by His effects. This requires acceptance on its merits, not by proof of this world, which, at this point in understanding, may or may not be real. So, lets just consider for now that we may be Holy Loving Spirit. This puts new meaning on certain truths about yourself, the world and all that is in it, and about relationships, life and death,........ everything you believe you see with your bodies eyes.
For if God is not a body, neither are you. If the Christ is His Creation, so are you. If Christ is His son, so are you, His sibiling. Consider that you may be Gods one Creation, a Loving Mind, a Holy Spirit, and as such, you have made your body, programed into you before birth by the loving force in perpetuity. Then you have made all you see with your bodies eyes. The images entered your brain and you composed thots around them to arrange them with the other images and smells and tastes and sounds that entered your mind. You collosal you, you! Then, in order to arrange these thots, you developed a thot system, much like the OS in a computer. The Loving thot system was given you at birth.
It is serene and accepts things as they are. But you had an imagined isea that your needs may not be met, so you developed a thought system of your own. We'll call that one the ego. It is based in closing off and fear, and its main purpose is to insure your survival. It knows it is separate and apart from other minds because it sees it is in the head of your body. This is the identity of the separate self. It knows you need food and things to stay alive, and works constantly to make your body safe. It does not trust.
All the while your true identity waits for you to settle down and "will" to know your true self, the Love Within.
How are we doin so far? Still with me?
I know your first question is about how you are just imagining this, right?
Well, consider the world you believe you see with your bodies eyes. How do you know that one is real? Didn't you assemble that one in your imagination also, based on feedback the ego obtained based on its evidence? Yet, can it be any more real than the reality you given and that gave you life in a body? Where did your reality come from? Is it fear or is it Love. This you must choose, and your choice will determine whether the universe flows toward you or away from you. Whether you accept that your needs will be met, with your practical acknowlegement and common sense, or whether you must live in constant fear that without your constant struggle and striving, you will not get what you need and want to be happy.
Everything else comes from this basic thought. Your self identity.
You are a magnificent creator, created in the image of God, and what you create is as true as your thinking allows it to be. This is where trust enters your awareness. You will not know the fruits of your choice by the proofs of the world, but by their effects on your life and you.
How are you following so far?
Fascinating discussion! I'm a newbie too! I will answer the questions in the first post as best I can off the cuff for I'm not able to spend alot of time tonight but I'll be back!
I have always considered an agnostic to be a Christian (and it could be more expansive than that but I'm giving my understanding), a Christian who has many doubts and perhaps intellectual or otherwise difficulties with the Christianity he/she has experienced and is taking a back seat without committment.........not totally abandoning the faith but questioning. And I would daresay most Christians I know have had very bad experiences in the church so many agnostics are coming from a place of I want to believe but ack these people are too much .
To break it down: #1 questions that seem unanswerable or #2 bad experiences #3 Both #4 probably other possibilities I don't have at my fingertips lol
Other agnostics (not Christian) are those who want to believe in God but can't and I find these people really ask the hard questions. They don't answer these questions in Sunday School. They haven't given up on the answers yet.
An atheist has committed to lack of belief in a God and usually quite rationally. At least the ones I know can give you a very thoughtful reason for their position. And I respect that.
I also respect agnostism. I've been there myself.
Phil, what alot to ponder. As I said I'll be back lol!
I really like this group btw!!!!!!
This post was modified from its original form on 16 Sep, 15:06
I hear you Rachel,
The world is a place of doubting because it is a place of egos, based in fear, seeing themselves as separate bodies.
Some, or all religions seem to take on a life of their own and then they develope an ego, just like an individual does. That causes them to become fearful of being sustained and sustainable.
Some more thots concerning our true selves, (see above).
The part of the bible that says the world was made in seven days may certainly be misunderstood metaphor. From what I've learned, the Escenic culture of Jesus' time had little language that was acurately translatable to other neighboring cultures. They had alot of spiritual depth. Hence their meanings were not easily translatable to other understandings, so they took their best guess at it, and I believe they were not above a little self empowerment on a worldly level. The Roman Catholic church and whatever they came from, coming into power was convinced it had the right to dominate all thought and hence, property and wealth. This is the far distant past, so it is recollected with a flawed mind. So, anyway, I can see that alot of mistakes were made in the zeal to control cultures. The bible does not say the world was made in 7 consecutive days or where it was made. This could have easily mean't something else. But one didn't dare question the high priests back then, I'm guessing.
I say question everything, everythought, every idea. If it cannot stand up to truth then let it go. I think that is the way of very many people today, and so an unprepared clergy and church is abandoned, and rightly so. Witness the scrambling of the Catholic church to be more relatable to the dwindling followings.
So maybe the world of the bible was understood as created at different times, a "day of thought worth" at a time? "Day" may have also meant "era".
And what if the world was understood to be made in your mind, where you imagined it? Then, so much more is understandable, isn't it?
The church power of the time reminds me alot of our government today. Out of touch with the reality of the people, and certainly believing they were not answerable to them. Then, as now, they answered only to what they believed they could get away with as they could establish as god. Enuf on that. I'm not here to shatter idols. But I expect you may do that frequently on your own. It is your right as a Child or Creation of God. I accept it is OK to use certain gentle metaphors here today.
IF we accept God as simple Love, everything changes. We must question everything as how it relates to this truth. God loves His Creation beyond what thoughts you could concieve of, beyond this world, and far more than the little idea you may have of yourself and others. In this light, God does not admonish or chastise. He could never punish or condemn. God, being Love, is never angry or sad, because He sees that whatever you think in the world of separated beings is not the truth. He only Loves His Creation with all His being. Yet, He knows we will have doubts and fears because we are in separate bodies and we believe we are separate from Him, tho we are not in truth. So, He has given us His Holy Spirit to connect between our minds and His, and re-establishes our true nature as the gifted creators we are. Remenber, we are made in His Image, not He in ours.
So, then the next question must be; why is there so much chaos and fear and suffering in the world if we can be as God is. The answer to that is that we must be willing, a little willingness at first, then as effects are seen, the willingness grows, and more and more we become engaged in a process of simply listening to the Voice For God, which is the Holy Spirit. For most of us it is like learning a new language of loving forgiveness. Because is is so gentle and undemanding, it is seldom heard above the raucus and ubiquitous noise of the ego and the world, but it is there, and it is always with you, in your mind, where God placed it. Because most of the world does not do this, they are not listening and hearing, they are hearing the egos voice of fear and lack instead.
There is much more in this. The answers to every question of importance to your true self and every seeming need is here, in the Loving thought system.
This post was modified from its original form on 16 Sep, 17:09
Phil you have expresssed the true essence of true Christianity.........oh I wish there were a better word!
Beautifully expressed too!
Thank you. As I said, I have no need to shatter any idols or what works for anyone. What I see as truth is one way to look at it. If you think seeing differently from me has meaning for you then you are given free will like the rest of us. To me, the bible is a collection of stories used to teach values and morality. If it makes perfect sense to you, I can only say you have more tolerance than I.
Thank you. How about Spirituality. I trust our Bro, JC doesn't mind.
All for now. Perhaps tomorrow, more.
Please feel free to discuss, debate and share personal feelings, but keep other posters out of it... No personal attacks or negative judgements allowed here, sorry.
Please feel free to post, but keep it posts in I, me, mine, statements, rather than you, yours... it is one simple way to stay out of personal attack mode.
Phil JC doesn't mind at all! He's lovin' it!
See ya in a few days!
Green Road...I'm a little offended that a post was deleted. I guess I believe censorship is wrong...........oh well. In my groups I don't delete posts. I let people speak and let people work out their differences and I let it stand. But we are all different. I do appreciate your guidelines very much!
in a good intellectual disussion, i find more benefit from one's opinion, or even one's fact findings.
this is the person that i am, i am agnostic because i choose to have learning as my greatest good, or which i prefer to look to for answers on anything. my faith is in the ability in which i am able to exist under.
i exist in a trouble world, that has been since the beginning of time. in that trouble world how do i wish to live ? i have seen the wrong of it, and do i wish to be like them? i have seen the right in it, and i ask myself, do i want to be like them?
if i have a problem, can i solve it myself, or seek a solution? or would i rather have someone hand me the solution in which they tell me it to be?
my studies have taken me down many a religious history, i have read those books, i have questioned their priests, rabbi's, buddist leaders. i have sought truth of what many more religions existing in the world, and i have traveled to many places to see these places of miracles too, and what i was told to be truths.
there is a world divided i found...one of man's truths, one of book truths, one of religious truths, one of political truths, one of the public's truths, marketing truths etc etc.
my conclusions over the years of my life time only, has been i find truth in myself, and which i choose to express it, to the best of my ability. i need not be told of what power rules my life here or after, or what is right or wrong. i know these things, or i error and i learn these things on my own still.
when i don't know, i seek out to know, or learn. or when something comes my way that is odd, or different, then i must learn of it, not judge it, or condemn it, but learn of it and the why of it.
religions are no exception to the rules. one time i was told to understand christ, or christanity, read the bible for that informations. so i did, i read it 3 times front to back, like any book i would pick up. then i questioned. "why does one take this one book and read it in part for say a sermon? what book do we take and only read a paragraph and then explain the whole book ? i have not yet seen one book that is treated in this manner, and it puzzles me greatly. no book is more disrespected then the bible is in my mind. if one is christian, one would want to know their own book from front to back, would they not? yet a christian will let another tell them the meaning, and purpose of one paragraph and this would explain it all? or they would pick a place in the bible and read that, and not the whole story that went more then that few pages of readings. some say psalms is their favorite, others say the new testament is their favorite. some have just a scripture that is favorite.
awww. but i went furthur then this... i wanted to know the history of the people of the times talked about in the bible...
oh what things then changed and i learned in details, that most christians are not even told..then i asked "where is the truth of it all for them?"
durnig the times before christ...when a king reigned, the people were to believe the kings "god". no matter who that god was, or die in their denial of the kings god. so thus many died for not worshipping the kings in rules gods of that day.
how can one claim a faith of that time, without risk of their whole family slaughtered for perhaps disbelief of the kings god.
then i learned...
that wars were another area where people believed the victors of war and their Gods were and must be more powerful then their own god, and would sway over to the winners gods. "oh holy one that wins wars, must be mighty and true"...so be it of history.
then the study of "hell and fire"...now that is a really interesting history and where all that came from and is not of the original scriptures nor ever was, but a coined aspect of later christianity, then in various places of the bible replaced the original word that was used in this case.
the first bibles were not of scriptures brake downs of todays king james bibles, and the scripture aspects did not happen til the geneva bible was produced during the protestant of the christian church of its days. another brake of religions developments during that time. a new faith developed called the protestant faith.
holidays another story in itself, and yes i know of them and never were they christian based either, but of mingling for profits of these wonderful festivals that are celebrated so world wide.
i can go on forever and brake down the times, the history, the developments, and the evolution of most religions. for me its not of need to a god in my life, but a need to know truth in which i seek. if someone tells me there is clouds in the sky, i can't settle on just that view..i have to find out why they are there, and how they got there, and where they go, and what they do, and how they affect the world in which i live in.
if i am told that trees grow from seeds..then i have to know how that happens, all the stages of a seed.
there is nothing i do, see, hear, or read that i don't go another 5000 miles to find out more about. there are those that see the sparkle of a gem, but i have to look at the faceted parts that make the gem what it is.
Curious why my post was deleted when I didn't attack anyone, but stated my opinion of the writer about my beliefs. If this will just be another forum where I can't speak my beliefs as well as discuss others then I must not be in America anymore. IMHO= in my humble opinion - as I stated. I am a humble person and would like very much to have the right to make a statement back to a person who has IMHO made a condescending statement about Christians (belief in God like the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc.) Is this not a forum for understanding each other's beliefs? Discussing every faith? but maybe not allowing anyone to stand on their truth or stand up for their own intelligence? If I sound angry, I am not -- mostly frustrated; because any decent intelligent discussion should have both sides of an issue. If it doesn't,there isn't much point and who would learn anything anyway?
Just my humble opinion.
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This may be 'interpreted' by different hosts in different ways.. I have been kicked out of a particularly large group, for doing nothing more than posting some anti-nuclear information, but not attacking anyone. Maybe the host thought this was 'obscene' information.. Again, it is the interpretation of the above, that makes groups different.
I have been kicked out of other groups ONLY because I disagreed with the host during a discussion, not because I personally attacked them.. Each host has that freedom and power...
Here, anyone can disagree with a host or co host or with other members and not get 'kicked out' just for having a difference of opinion or even a minority opinion. That is a REQUIREMENT for an interfaith discussion and debate, correct?
However, this is tempered by a requirement of respect for the person with a different opinion, religion and belief system... What is respect? Well... that is sometimes hard to define, but it is easier to 'feel'.
If someone says; 'You are an A*#*#*#' for believing in Y#(#()@. (This is a personal attack)
Another way of saying something like this, but much more respectfully might be; I personally believe that Y(*#*#(@ is a cult. Here are the reasons why, and then list the reasons... No one is named. No one is directly attacked, demeaned, called names or abused.
An even more polite and respectful tack is to ask questions, as Socrates did of people he debated with...
If you were approached by a person, and told one of the above, which would be abusive, and which would be more respectful? Which of these three ways would you prefer to engage in a discussion?
The first example I call a personal attack, and the second example is the beginning of what may lead to a respectful discussion or debate... even though both sides may feel emotions and get 'riled up', or have their buttons pushed. The third is an example of a master at work... No threats, no force, no pushing, just inquiry.
Personal attacks are sometimes done by trolls, with the goal of disrupting groups and causing chaos, which then causes members to leave and a group to descend into just name calling, demeaning statements, libel, slander, and worse. I do not believe anyone wants that here...
The second and third example are the start of a civil discussion which engages the whole community, leaving room for everyone to participate and fully express themselves..
Just to be clear; I am not calling anyone here a troll. Often, a post is mostly respectful discussion, with one sentence of what I feel may be a personal attack. Maybe it was just an innocent slip, an accident or mistake of typing too fast and not thinking about it enough.. I will delete the whole post for the one sentence.. Maybe it was a great post, except for that one sentence.
I do this to keep everyone here safe. I encourage co hosts to do to the same thing here in this group.
As one poster said, there are other groups where there is a free for all, Wild West, anything goes, non enforcement of Care2 terms of service. In these groups, anyone can say whatever they feel like, including cursing, name calling, etc... Nothing is deleted, including the worst possible personal attacks and demeaning statements. There is a group for everyone here on Care2. It that experience is needed, by all means, get that experience there.
This is NOT one of those groups...
On the disclaimer side, I or another co host may err on the side of caution and delete something that is not totally a personal attack, but just in the grey zone. I may make a mistake in judgement in an effort to keep the group civil and courteous.. If and when I make a mistake like that, I apologize in advance.. Please do not take it personally.. Being a host or co host is not an easy job at all times. Trying to decide whether to delete a post or not is sometimes NOT an easy thing to do.. So I and the other co hosts ask for your forgiveness if and when we get it wrong...
Let us learn how to get along better as the unique and special human beings we all are.
I appreciate these rules. I have offered comment on some blogs and attack was attempted, so I merely dropped the blog. So maintaining a certain decorrum may be well advised.
The mention of these rules did bring up something in mind about personal attacks tho.
It has again to do with my true identity, who I believe I am. I want to understand fully that I am a child of, a creation of a Loving God. I want to know that my true identity is this Holy Spirit of Love. When I sink into this knowing I accept certain qualities that cannot be denied in truth. One of them is that I cannot be attacked in any way. It simply is not possible. If I see myself as a body I'm already "done for", dead. It just involves a short matter of time to be carried out. If I accept my true identity as the Loving Spirit of God, I am invulnerable, unassailable, beyond attack. This is the tricky part about being in a body and having a mind split by two identities. One that I work to get beyond everyday. This perspective involves seeing the entire world differently. It involves experiencing my siblings in Christ as the same, and seeing, hearing, touching, and responding to, only that part of everyone as being the same as myself. I believe this is the Christ Mind perspective. The "second coming of Christ" that will occur in all of us, no matter how long we put it off, or how many bodies/lifetimes we cycle thru. It doesn't matter how long it takes, but I pose the question in mind, why do I keep my Loving Creation from it's Creator.
The world and my ego do their dance of believing in separation until we all go home together as one. Some say that I am a but silly dreamer, but I have seen alot of what the world offers, and it is a palid and shabby dream when compared to the reality of being at home with complete acceptance of my true self with my Holy Creator. Why not bring Heaven to earth. That seems a worthy calling for the Son of God.
So I play at the Solar Sweetlife, installing equipment to enable the use of current sunshine for my home energy needs, supporting my body without limiting or threatening the worldly needs of others. It brings me happiness.
Yes, and this co-host noticed !
I was even thinking. This is a test!
I will have to watch myself!!!!!!!!! Or leave!
Yes, I could say a mouth full, on how one group out in the World treats another.
But this group is suppose to be a haven from that, right?
It is about respect! Not believing alike but respect.
Peace in the World.
Thank you, A Green Road for the reminder.
I too am subject to the 'imperfections' of judgement, pride, selfishness, pettiness, ego, etc. etc... I do not claim perfection, or even wisdom, but strive for improvement and learning..
It is possible to have debates about how one group treats another.. that is still ok here. We are not on some holy, pure mission where we cannot debate one viewpoint or another. Compare and contrast beliefs, religions, and share what you think or believe, etc..Others will respond, with their own beliefs, opinions, etc. Just do not attack one specific person here in the group.
The 'practice' part of it is how we talk about our own path or others paths, while keeping the personal attack aspect out of it.. It is a practice, and a process of learning how to do this.. Very few know how to do this and pull it off perfectly in my experience, including myself.
This group is a forum for the interfaith communication practice and process. We will all get better at it by DOING it, by engaging with each other.
I call this process 'sharpening the sword'. I may start out with a dull, useless implement due to non use and non practice. With only myself to talk with, how do I sharpen my sword of discernment, see truth, reality, or do anything else? I can convince myself of anything, including really weird illusions that have very little do with reality. If I expose this thinking to others, they may feed back to me how my illusions trap me, and provide an opportunity for me to free myself by reflecting back, etc...
It is possible to go inside on my own, but we are also connected to each other as a human family. We NEED each other in many ways... especially in an interfaith setting.
We need others of different belief systems and religions to communicate with, to reflect us, to bounce ideas off each other, to test beliefs, to learn, to grow and become better non violent communicators.
If we just keep to ourselves, well, there is nothing wrong with that. I think we may become richer as human beings by communicating with and/or relating to others who do not think, believe, dress, worship or act as we do. Studies seem to confirm this...
We fear who we do not know. We are afraid of the unknown.. So if we are talking with Muslims, Pagans, etc... and we get to know them as HUMAN BEINGS, just like us, then the fear may diminish... it may even disappear... who knows? It is a path less traveled, but that path is open here, for anyone willing and wanting to proceed down it.
I have been thinking about what Agnostic means to me....
A-gnostic... I broke it up into two words... An person who is gnostic is seen entirely different than keeping this together, quite possibly.
A gnostic is a person in my mind is very complex and not necessarily easy to define and put in a box, labeling them unbeliever.. Quite the opposite actually in my opinion. I rely on the following quote to make my point...
The meaning of 'gnosis'
"Though the word 'Gnosticism' is a modern construction, it is based on an ancient root; it comes from the Greek word most often translated as 'knowledge', gnosis (γνώσι&sigmaf. However,gnosis itself refers to a very specialized form of knowledge, deriving both from the exact meaning of the original Greek term and its usage in Platonist philosophy (see Plato's gnostikoi’ and gnostike episteme from Politicus (or Statesmen) 258e-267a). Gnosis also has a hermetic understanding. In the Hellenic world gnosis and hermetic understanding were exclusively pagan as one can see in the word being Koine Greek and deriving from Pagan Platonic philosophy. Platonic and Pythagorian modes of thinking spread Greek ideas and culture throughout the Hellenic world, introducing the mideastern peoples conquered by Alexander the Great to many of the concepts that were unique to Greek thinkers of the time (and vice versa). It should also be noted that Alexander made efforts to unite all conquered peoples under a common language and a common culture, which led to many cultures adoptingKoine Greek as a language for common communication in commerce between different ethnic and cultural groups." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gnosticism
Could a possible broad definition be; a seeker of knowledge and/or truth?
If yes, then could not that definition apply to EVERYONE, no matter what belief system, religion, etc?
"Agnostic (Greek: ἀ- a-, without + γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) was used by Thomas Henry Huxley in a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876 to describe his philosophy which rejects all claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge.
Early Christian church leaders used theGreek word gnosis (knowledge) to describe "spiritual knowledge." Agnosticism is not to be confused with religious views opposing the ancient religious movement of Gnosticism in particular; Huxley used the term in a broader, more abstract sense. Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry."
If I use this definition, then if I pursue a mystical or metaphysical path in my journey of exploring truth or knowledge, then I can still call myself agnostic. I just need EVIDENCE that what I am finding out is actually true..
One way this might work for example; If I hear that there is a spiritual law, I would want proof that it exists. How? If I do a certain thing, it will result in a certain reaction. As I test this, so I can get evidence, I am still an agnostic, correct?
So whether I am inside a religion or outside of one, does not seem to matter? What does everyone else think?
I am a bit tired tonight, long day, but wanted to apologize if I in any disgraced or offended anyone with my post on censorship. And to say that I wasn't in any way comparing groups. I have just learned that deleting a post is a risky business and I just don't. And I have found that mature and loving human beings restrain themselves in a loving way. It's kindof miraculous really but I've seen it happen. Please forgive if I burst in too soon but I am an honest person seeking integrity and I also am empathetic to a fault lol! Empathetic to someone whose post is deleted. And I am truly pleased to find this fascintating group.
I am also glad that this thread has returned to the original question.
Green Road you asked this question:
"Could a possible broad definition be; a seeker of knowledge and/or truth?
If yes, then could not that definition apply to EVERYONE, no matter what belief system, religion, etc? "
My answer to that is absolutely! Great definition!
absolutely true Green road! very rare anyone ever brings up the answer to this questions. this is actually the first i have seen it answered correctly actually..giggle
that is agnostic exactly, in all those terms, but the best one that you posted if the explainations was to be made simple for anyone..is...
"Could a possible broad definition be; a seeker of knowledge and/or truth?
If yes, then could not that definition apply to EVERYONE, no matter what belief system, religion, etc? "
true agnostic people seek the "truth" and that is basically the whole concept in a nut shell. Anostic's go beyond and they do a heck of alot of digging to find those internal things that are rarely heard, or the origins of anything. the beginnings, the developments, the what it was then, the what it is now, and such.
whether one believes of a god in heaven, or a budda teacher, or whatever choices of religion one practices. the agnostic does not set their sites to one particular god in which they would follow, but to learn of all the truths spoken or taught. agnostics tend to choose what is best for themselves thru varied deep truths, and applying them to their life, or activities, thought processes etc.
not much different at all then a christian learning to practice what their faith teaches. if i were to say i have a god, perhaps his name would be "truth"
agnostics can't really judge other faiths at all, since the seeking of truth from all of them, and more info and fact outside of them. agnostics do make decisions of right/wrong and good/bad, but basically for their own self, and not for intent of others.
the reasons one does not hear agnostic speak out as would a another faith speaking of their gods, or beliefs, is that agnostic beliefs are based upon facts, and thus we become more like some one that is is just postings informations and not religious affilations.
i am very very impressed of this group, the members and the idea of really wanting to finding out things, all things, all faiths, all ideas and beliefs. this is way too cool for me! giggle
Interesting Kindle. I think there is a difference though...... in saying that all agnostics are truth seekers and all truth seekers are agnostics ... I am a truth seeker but not an agnostic. I think there is a time when your heart, mind and spirit are so open and you receive a life altering truth. And you receive it with gratitude ..... and then perhaps you become a truth sifter. And that's okay too!
Is there an official symbol for agnostics? http://abooo.seesaa.net/article/143104941.html?googlesorgu=pagan%20symbol
Another resource, take your pick...
Could it be that the symbols may be as numerous as Agnostics themselves?... Could it be that some Agnostics may not even like to be called Agnostics? Maybe that shows how rare and special they truly are?
Could they be so individual, that they may even make up their own symbol, just to prove it?
What is your favorite symbol for Agnostic? Care2 share?
many think that agnostic is due to loss of faith, or other life altering aspect that where god is no longer the believers source of faith.
there are many many reasons a person becomes agnostic, but the agnostic persons are really on one foundation in unity, believe it or not?
if there is not full truth and its falls to questions, then a person may seek more truths about any one or more subjects and is agnostic. there are people that don't even know they are agnostic and don't claim to be agnostic either. people that don't want the label of agnostic, because its confused with athiest.
one can be a truth seeker and such in the ways of agnostic, but have a christian faith. but then they are christians, due to they believe in a specific type of god, or a god they learn from their faiths. still and all a christian.
agnostic truth seeking is not a monopoly of agnostics only, never was, never will be. its human to seek truths, to know things. what the truths of a true agnostic does, is not hold to a specific greater being for all things in life. such as the creation story may not be excepted by true agnostics on the whole, but then the evolution theory may not be excepted by agnostic either.
if i read about abraham from history book, i am not satisfied by that one books informations. people are multi-faceted in life. so there is more to abe lincoln then is written by one person, so there i go to seek out how, why and who abe lincoln is.
dinosaurs is a question, cause i heard in biology once that hair, and feathers decays long before the fossiling processes occurs. if its heated death then the feathers and hair burn off, if its freezing death, hair does not sustain itself under such conditions either??
so why can't dinosaurs have had feathers and hair, more then they are displayed now as not having such physical conditions? so i seek. what is funny of this, is years down the road a scientist actually stated that there was feathers on those big huge birds of prey during the dinosaur days. but this would change history books, so it was not permitted to be in public teachings, whether it was correct or not.
these may be trival truths, but all the same they are truths that are important to me for the safe of integrity of any history on anything. the whole truth and nothing but the truths.
agnostic don't hold to a greater being as an answer to all things.
what would be tossed off is the common saying of: "its god's will", or "we can not understand the workings of god"
"pray and let god answer you"
things said of this nature is not in the agnostic's thinking or reasoning. this is christian based teachings. these things are not answers or solutions to agnostics.
so as not to seem to be judging christians at all, in my communications, cause i can't judge religions for what they do or believe really.
there are other practices of founded religions in which agnostics won't go either.
wicca ritual practice of magic
buddism which have a set practice and books also
all religions of any kind is not fully excepted.
agnostic can freely read all things, no matter the religion, so perhaps it the source of "freedoms" that is agnostic rather then the confinements of one belief, or one teacher. perhaps religions in their own ways, would prefer that the faithful not participate or indulge in reading other religions and those teachings.