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Welcome May 09, 2004 8:36 AM

Hi all! I wanted to have a group that talks about how to eat well without giving up meat, dairy products, fish, eggs and other animal products. I am well aware that there are people who think this is impossible. I am well aware that food production can be seen as exploitation of animals for our own pleasures. Obviously I don't think that way. I think that I have more influence over how animals are treated and bred, if I am a consumer - I can choose to buy only products that are produced in a humane, wise and ecological manner. See you, Ketutar  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous I really May 09, 2004 10:09 AM

appreciate this new Group. I have some thoughts about Sustainbly raised food products and keeping kosher - because I am Jewish. I'll be back! Cubsaver  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
anonymous I really May 09, 2004 10:09 AM

appreciate this new Group. I have some thoughts about Sustainbly raised food products and keeping kosher - because I am Jewish. I'll be back! Cubsaver  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
Thanks for making this group May 10, 2004 10:35 AM

meat is and integeral part of my culture so I would never give it up. While I try to stay away from farm raised meat were the animals are not given proper respect for their sacrifice, sometimes it's not possible. Hunting and the meat/parts that come from the animals you take play a large role in many of my practices. It has always bothered me that people try and make me feel guilty for hunting or using animal parts. I think that if you show respect to the animal for the sacrifice it has given for you to live than you are doing what is right. The same goes for the plant people. That is what it boils down to for me. Both animals, plants and well everything has a spirit that must be honored and respected. Something vegitarians hate to have pointed out to them.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous Now, to get up on my May 12, 2004 3:33 AM

sop box. G-d, as far as my beliefs go, gave us both plants and animals to eat. With the provision that we care for all of it. That means respecting the animals before, during and after we kill it. The Jewish way of slaughter, and separating milk and meat are ways that I find very respectful of the animals. And also the ritual of Santifying every meal through blessings that are specific for each food group. Also at the moment of killing an animal a blessing is said, that aknowledges both G-d's gift and the animals gift. The same way, the idea of Tikkun Olam, mending the world, is for me a way to be mindful of the Stewardship G-d gave us. The Environment, and the Purpose for our eating. Cubsaver  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
Yep May 12, 2004 9:34 AM

I've been taught to pray before and after I've taken any life ( be it plant, animal or picked up a stone and moved it). There are prayers and songs for hunting, some are for the animal to have pity on you and come to your aide and some are sung to thank the animal for the sacrifice they made so you can eat. The same goes for plants.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous I do May 12, 2004 12:44 PM

Believe that we can and do make a difference through our purchase-habits. One of the largest food distributors/retailers in Sweden launched an Ad Campaign some years ago aimed at traditional egg and poultry production. The Ads were very simple: "Why should you by eggs laid by Free-Range Chicken? Put 10 people in a phone booth, that's why!" It worked. Now they have increased their sale of Eggs from Free-Range Chicken to a point where it has virtually pushed the Non-Free-Range Eggs off the shelves. They removed traditionally produced eggs totally last year. So as a consumer I do have a say in what is produced. It is all about what choices I make. Personally I think governments ought to subsidise the production of Eco Friendly food. And penalize the production of food that is not Eco Friendly. To hasten the transfer from a Non-Eco agricultur to a Eco Friendly one. It has to be profitable to do what is right.  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
anonymous Respect when it's the creature's or plant's time to go June 18, 2004 10:46 AM

I have had similare feelings about respecting and especially being conscious of the life that has been given for the sake of nourishing mine. I really hate the term "product", it's a piece of plant or animal that we are eating. And when and how it died is how it was meant to. I don't mean to imply that we can thus do whatever we like. I, too, believe in stewardship. And I especially like it when stewardship lends itself to rectifying some great wrongs. For instance: there's a good ol' boy rancher up near Lubbock, Texas who has taken to elk ranching. Elk used to range all over the American west, the mountains as well as the plains. I have personally seen them in the forrests of New Mexico, majestic! This man is now raising them on the Texas plains and hopes that his attemps will encourage re-introduction across the continent. And he's and old cowboy guy! Like the saying goes, you can't judge a book by its cover. But I like cowboys, often. Elk meat is delicious, my favorite wild meat on par with American bison, buffalo. When I eat either I have this profound feeling of health, wellness, and wholeness (holiness if you like, I'm not religious but it seems to fit). I try to transfer that reverence to all animals and plants I eat. I have found that if I listen the plants and animals will tell me when they're ready to go.  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
 June 21, 2004 5:20 PM

I happen to be a vegetarian myself, of course for the ethical aspect of it, but also for the health benefits and the fact that I simply don't like meat. I'd just like to say that I also appreciate this group, for while I do advocate vegetarianism for health and ethical reasons, and more power to those who are and become vegetarians; I also understand that there are many people who care about animals and their own health yet do not wish to give up animal products. It's the inhumane treatment of animals that we're all against, right? So even buying free-range and organic foods will help the cause. Anything towards a more positive and healthy lifestyle - Thanks for advocating it!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 19, 2005 4:40 PM

I've been a Member for a while, but I guess I never introduced myself! 

Anyway, a couple of years ago, when I had a personal encounter with caged chickens ~ and haven't been able to get the one chicken's (out of 1000's on the truck) hopeless & feable cries out of my head ~ I decided I could no longer support that abuse and began my journey toward Vegetarianism! . . .

Eventually, I hope to go "Cold Turkey" so to speak, but in the meantime, I currently still eat Fish & Eggs (but always try to choose wisely when buying/eating Fish & Eggs ~ ie. Free-range & Organic, etc.) . . . and I've given up Dairy for the most part (except for Cheese ~ I use "Veggie Cheese" slices for sandwiches, but I just can't give up the "real thing" ~ just yet, anyway!!

Maire, aka

Cosmic Rhino ] :< )

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Eco Friendly Farming of Animals May 03, 2005 7:28 AM

As in informed person on farming I must say there cannot be eco friendly farms.   The earth was intended to only provide so much and we are stretching it beyond its limits for both plant and animal production.   Also in the free range chicken/organic meat market where does the waste go that they produce.   These animals are bred for human consumption(we all know humans consume too much of it) and as animals are not given hormones more of them are needed meaning there is more waste.   Just look at organic milk.   It comes from cows that produce much less milk, meaning that when everyone starts drinking organic milk, or eating organic beef, more cows will be neccessary to sustain resources for everyone.   This means using even more grain that could go to feed the rest of the world, and also means much more waste to dump into the ocean.   Even if the waste is disposed of as eco-friendly as possible it will cause much damage.   Think of what would happen if you put 5 pounds of cow pie in a pot with an orchid in it.   You will most definatly over concentrate the soil with nutrients and not make it good for growth.   This is what the world has to look foreward to in terms of eco friendly farming.   It just cannot be done with so many humans on earth.   You can only be less eco damaging.   If the whole world went vegan(as I am) we would still be straining the earth as there are just too many humans on it.   Our agriculture system(plant and animal alike) is just too wastefull and it cannot get any better until the population decreases.   Therefore eco-meat eating cannot really be done.   The only somewhat reasonable way to do this is to hunt animals that are in access to their predators, if you hunt animals that aren't in access(more than natural) you are taking food from animals that need them to survive(no logical eco meat eater would ever say meat is neccessary for survival).    The thing is if you were also eco educated you would know that pretty much no animals are in access...its the predators that we have dwindled down or it is the land we have stolen that has made it appear that way.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 03, 2005 7:45 AM

First what is your expereince in farming? Are you a farmer? if so where is your farm and what size is it? What do you raise?

Since you are against all farming i suppose you do nothing but hunt and gather.

if you had any experience with diversified sustainable farms you would know that forst of all chickens do not use hormones, ever. the fast growth is because of breeding. you see I can easily raise a 7 pound fryer/roaster in 8 weeks on pasture with no drugs. where does the waste go/ the manure either goes right into the ground to feed the soil or on the compost pile. The feathers and internal organs are taken off farm in my case but many farms do on farm processing and use all parts for fertilizers among other things. same with pastured pork, beef and sheep/goats.

as far as the hormone thing, yopu are wrong. With milk cows fewer are needed because a pastured cow who is drug free will have a working life of around 17 years. A cow that is fed grain and drugs has a working life of about 3 years and than is slaughtered and is replaced. so you can see with the conventional model more cows are needed than with the organic model.

the manure if managed correctly will not cover the planet. if a pasture is alive wuith dung beetles and other decomposers (which is the case in a field not sprayed with herbicides) than the manure is effeciently used by nature. Sadly this is not the case with a conventionally managed field where the bugs and other decompiser are killed by chemical use.

I agree that there are too many people on the planet.

I also know predators have binocular vision and canine teeth. human beings have binocular vision and canine teeth-we are meat eaters naturally.

There have been huge mistrakes in modern agirculture that have allowed over population and very bad use of resources.

You can condemn eco-farming but do you have a better solution?
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Eco Farming May 03, 2005 10:57 AM

The experience I have with farming is from my aunt raising pigs the traditional way in the Philippines...and my father growing up working on the farms of the Hershey Chocolate grounds. As for the cows your right about organic cows living longer...and if they could produce the milk they do in a lifetime in a shorter time then they would provide just as much milk with enough cows but think about it. If you have a sweat shop and need 10,000 shirts out of your sweat shop every you want 100 kids that can make 50 a day no you'll wind up short of demand you need more sweat shop workers just like you'll need more cows, this is because the sweat shop next to you has 80 kids making 150 a day and going beyond the demand. So in all you may have cows living longer but they would producing more milk in a lifetime but you would need milk now. As for us being natural meat eaters I was a bio major at a prestegious school(LaSalle Univ.) and nobody felt we were natural meat eaters. Our intestines are too long, and comparatively our canines are almost worthless. We are omnivores however but in the sence that we should be eating plant life and insects. Go do some research on human anotomy and diet and I think you would agree.(one thing...go look at a vegan fruit bat as all of them are...they are much smaller than a human yet their canines are 3-5 times the size in most cases...human canines mean nothing)  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 05, 2005 12:19 PM


Been a member for a while but never introduced myself. I was a vegaterian for about a year and a half and during that time my health just fell apart. Despite taking iron piss I was really anemic, I was always low on energy, my hair didn't grow at all during that whole time. My doc. said that if my blood count went down any more I might need a blood transfusion so I started eating meat again. I would be a vegerterian if I could but I am just now getting my blood count back to normal. I ofcourse eat all organic/free range.

I do agree that the earth was never ment to have farms, and we were always to be hunters and gatherers. If you look at meat eating from an evolution view, humans have always eaten meat and plants. We have teath built for both. But thats just my view on it.

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Greetings to the Group May 12, 2005 2:47 PM

I'm Robbi, and also thankful to see this group.

Warm regards and thank you for the invitation..

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anatomy May 14, 2005 9:58 PM

If we are going to focus on the fact that humans don't have long canines as proof that they aren't meant to eat meat, shouldn't we ask why fruit bats have any need for long canines?  The answer is simple, they are needed for defense, mountain gorillas are not carnivores and look at the length of their canines.  I could also add that most animals don't have the use of fingers.  Food must be held down with paws, in the case of carnivores, large chunks of meat meat are torn off.  I don't think the length of human teeth can be used as a valid argument for vegitarianism.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Jeremy May 14, 2005 10:03 PM

As for us being natural meat eaters I was a bio major at a prestegious school(LaSalle Univ.) and nobody felt we were natural meat eaters. Our intestines are too long, and comparatively our canines are almost worthless. We are omnivores however but in the sence that we should be eating plant life and insects. Go do some research on human anotomy and diet

I was a nursing major, with a certification as a nutritional specialist and I respectfully disagree.. Particularly during pregnancy it is difficult to find a way to afford the mother the complete proteins she needs to adequately nourish the fetus without the consumption of meat and milk.

There are many people who are unable to eat a vegetarian diet, and others who choose not to.
Life is about respecting choices, educating in a professional way, and acccepting that others will not feel as we do.
Many of us have researched, and studied to find sustainable methods of farming, as well as to find ethical companies to provide the meats that we use.
I find that many vegetarians have not done so with the companies that provide their foods, relying instead on the fact that only a plant dies and therefore the making and marketing is not important.

 Many vegetable companies, more actually than meat producers, are affiliated with companies that use child labor, slave wages and long hours, denying their workers basic health care and other amenities,  thereby destroying a resource that most assuredly is on a level with animal life..our childrens futures.

Asking why people use meat products and attempting to educate kindly will sometimes win you a convert, or at least a productive and reasonable reply.  At the least it will net you a far better answer than telling people they are wrong out of hand, based on no experience but your own...

Thats one of the things I learned in communications class in my not so prestigious college..
the other one, was spelling.

Respectfully.. Robbi.
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 December 06, 2005 8:55 PM

Hi everyone!  I just found this group.  Hopefully there are still some people around...

I am interested in learning about better meat/dairy choices.
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Conscientious omnivores! September 09, 2007 12:00 PM

I never felt that going vegan was a natural diet for humans (I believe in the whole balance of life and the importance  predators to their prey, including humans).  There are so, so many vegan groups on here, and although I disagree with the all-or-nothing approach to sustenance, I do agree that the food industry has been terribly inhumane all around the world.  It's people like us who who can make the greatest difference as the voice of the consumer (companies will listen to the people who buy their products, not to those who want to ban them entirely).  I'm glad that this group is here to show that there is an alternative for those who have a conscience but don't wish to give up meat entirely, for cultural/ideological/personal reasons.

We can learn from age-old wisdom, the best flesh-eaters seem to come from the smaller, less global cultures  who understand the importance of sustainability, from the Inuit (who have no choice but to eat an almost exclusively animal diet, since nothing grows where they are, and vegetables are truly luxuries) to the African tribes that only harvest blood and milk from their cattle.  I hear about Kobe beef and think, "why can't all livestock be treated that way?" (OK, they really get the luxury treatment, which isn't entirely necessary, but you get my meaning).  Even American Indian tribes had great respect for their animal resources.  Also, if you travel, as Anthony Bourdain put it:  The best access into experiencing a culture is through its food.  It is considered bad etiquette in many cultures to refuse food (hospitality) for anything other than medical reasons, and very few are vegan.

Happy animals and their products taste better, and are better for you.  Interestingly, many domesticated animals that are well-tended survive better (and longer) and reproduce more with less stress than their wild cousins.

By the way, if you have pets, there is a Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods for pets group here on Care2:  *group:raw_fed*   I just joined it the other day and was very surprised that there were no other members except the host.  Don't feed kibble and commercial pet food, they contain fillers and byproducts that are unhealthy!


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P.S. September 09, 2007 12:57 PM

I was also a bio major, and I don't recall any empirical knowledge being based upon "feelings" about whether or not something was predisposed one way or another.  Data from research was the source of choice.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
P.P.S. LOL September 09, 2007 2:13 PM

The reason our brains are so smart has everything to do with the meat-eating aspect of food anthropology. We had no claws, pitiful amounts of fur, and no truly enhanced strength over large prey. The smartest people who could successfully hunt were able to survive and produce progeny over millennia (exceptional smarts aren't necessary to gather; ask any gorilla). It is thanks to these hunters that you have the mental capacity to be discerning about your diet today.

It may not be necessary any longer to consume meat to "survive," but if that's all we strived for, we'd all settle for wearing threadbare, eating any slop we could find and living in a flimsy shelter. Who wants to just "survive?" Even Les Stroud (from the show "Survivorman" on the Science Channel) wouldn't live that way 24-7: he just likes keeping his skills sharp, he eats any fresh meat he can find when he does go out into the wilderness, and he is very relieved when his time is up and he can return to the comforts of civilization.

We want to THRIVE. To actually enjoy living. It's a perk of the human condition I wouldn't do without.

Don't get me wrong: There are some truly decadent vegan foods out there, too. I eat them with relish, no pun intended.

This post was modified from its original form on 09 Sep, 14:15  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
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