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How Israel Is Trying to Enforce Gag Orders Beyond Its Borders


World  (tags: censorship of press, censorship. academic freedom, censorship gagging hiding-truth, BDS, internet censorship, gag orders, Qalandiya shooting, U.S., censorship society, twitter, media, middle-east, news, israel, world, europe )

Fly
- 1016 days ago - 972mag.com
At IsraelâEUR(TM)s request, Twitter is blocking Israelis from viewing certain tweets published overseas



   

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fly bird (26)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 5:00 pm
At Israel’s request, Twitter is blocking Israelis from viewing certain tweets published overseas. Similar take-down notices have been sent to other international online platforms, the Justice Ministry confirms.

Israeli authorities are taking steps to block their own citizens from reading materials published online in other countries, including the United States.

The Israeli State Attorney’s Office Cyber Division has sent numerous take-down requests to Twitter and other media platforms in recent months, demanding that they remove certain content, or block Israeli users from viewing it.

In an email viewed by +972, dated August 2, 2016, Twitter’s legal department notified American blogger Richard Silverstein that the Israeli State Attorney claimed a tweet of his violates Israeli law. The tweet in question had been published 76 days earlier, on May 18. Silverstein has in the past broken stories that Israeli journalists have been unable to report due to gag orders, including the Anat Kamm case.

Without demanding that he take any specific action, Twitter asked Silverstein to let its lawyers know, “if you decide to voluntarily remove the content.” The American blogger, who says he has not stepped foot in any Israeli jurisdiction for two decades, refused, noting that he is not bound by Israeli law. Twitter is based in California.

Two days later, Twitter sent Silverstein a follow-up email, informing him that it was now blocking Israeli users from viewing the tweet in question. Or in Twitter-talk, “In accordance with applicable law and our policies, Twitter is now withholding the following Tweet(s) in Israel.”

The tweet is still available from American and non-Israeli IP addresses, but viewed from Israel, it looks like this:

Because I am writing this from Israel, I am legally forbidden from telling you what Silverstein’s original tweet said. I can’t even tell you the specific legal reason why I can’t tell you what I can’t tell you.

What I can say is that as the use of military censorship in Israel has become less common and less sweeping over the years, authorities are increasingly using court gag orders to control the flow of information in the country. Often times those gag orders cover the very existence of the gag order itself.

+972 has seen Twitter’s correspondence with Silverstein, but not the Israeli Justice Ministry’s specific request of Twitter. Justice Ministry spokesperson Noam Sharvit denied, however, that Israel demanded any concrete action of Twitter in Silverstein’s case, only that it “brought the violation of the gag order to the company’s attention.”

A page on Twitter’s website explaining the practice of “withholding” content stresses its commitment to being as transparent as possible about its censorship. The company notes that it has partnered with Lumen to make “requests to withhold content” themselves available to the public.

The database of take-down notices provided by Lumen and Twitter, however, does not include the publication of a single request that either mentions or originates from Israel or the Israeli government. Therefore, it is impossible to know with absolute certainty exactly what the Israeli request entailed.

Facebook, on the other hand, provides public data about the number of requests to restrict content in Israel “alleged to violate harassment laws, as well as content related to Holocaust denial.” Facebook says it restricted 236 pieces of content in Israel in the second half of 2015, the most recent period for which data is available.

Israeli legal authorities censoring information published inside Israel’s geographic and legal jurisdiction might seem like standard practice, albeit morally and ethically objectionable. Attempting to block information published overseas, however, is more akin to the type of censorship we’re used to hearing about in countries like China, Turkey, Syria, and Iran.

In most countries where internet censorship is most prominent, the practice is most commonly associated with the suppression of political dissent and attempts to control the free flow of information, upon which democracy and healthy political debate are fully dependent. Those who want to circumvent internet censorship, however, have an array of technical options for accessing blocked content.

This development also comes as the Israeli government has declared non-violent political activists as a high-priority target. Earlier this week, the public security minister and interior minister announced their intentions to deport foreign anti-occupation and BDS activists, and make Israeli citizens whose political activism includes nonviolent tactics like boycotts, “pay a price.”

Most of the public discussion surrounding internet censorship in Israel in recent months has focused on alleged Palestinian incitement to violence, which, at least at face value, can be interpreted to be a matter of public safety. Enforcing a gag order, however, is the state attempting to control the flow of information, plain and simple.

Which is not to say that there are not legitimate uses of gag orders, for instance, to protect minors and victims of certain crimes. According to the Israeli Justice Ministry spokesperson, Silverstein’s tweet indeed included information that could be used to identify a minor who was the victim of a sex crime.

In a more general sense, however, when a state has demonstrated its willingness to use gag orders and censorship to cover up its own crimes (the Bus 300 Affair and evidence of extrajudicial killings exposed by Anat Kamm) and to stifle legitimate free speech that challenges an undemocratic military regime, it becomes a moral imperative to fight all forms of censorship.

One recent and unfortunate example of how gag orders and censorship can be used to obfuscate justice, and at the very least give the impression of a coverup, is the shooting deaths of two Palestinian siblings by Israeli security contractors at the Qalandia checkpoint in late April of this year.

Palestinian witnesses said that the two, who were said to have knives in their possession, posed no immediate threat to the Israeli guards or police officers stationed at the checkpoint. Israeli authorities, however, have refused to release CCTV footage of the shooting, and placed a sweeping gag order on the investigation and the identity of the suspects. On August 2, the gag order was once again extended until August 31 — 126 days since the shooting.

It may have been possible to justify the original gag order, which was supposed to last only one week, with investigatory considerations. More than four months later, however, it is hard not to question what it is police have to hide.

***

Asked how many take-down requests have been sent to overseas social media platforms, the Israeli Justice Ministry spokesperson responded:



The Cyber Division, works, among other activities, with various internet providers to remove content that violates Israeli law, including the terms of use of the providers themselves. The division acts against forbidden content like the publication of pedophilia content, incitement to violence and racism, and publications that violate judicial or statutory gag orders. It should be noted that in the terms of use of most providers, the providers themselves declare that they comply with state orders. As part of the division’s activities, a number of providers have been approached in recent months with requests to remove such content, in various cases.

Asked whether it has also sent international media outlets requests to block certain content from Israeli readers, the Justice Ministry spokesperson said: “there have been such requests in the past which were sent to foreign providers, also including [publications] that were published in Israel.”
 

Freya H (345)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 5:29 pm
Israel's current excuse for a government can rot in Sheol. Not the nation itself - most Israelis, I believe, are decent people. The Nazi regime did not mean that Germany was a rotten country as a whole. Rise up, Israel, and elect people of decency - and kick the swine out of Jerusalem!
 

Henriette Matthijssen (154)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 5:39 pm
In total agreement with Freya's comment! Thanks Jess.
 

. (0)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 6:11 pm
Disseminating misinformation. Check your sources.
 

Rose Becke (141)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 10:21 pm
WTF..... Outrageous
 

Eleonora O (37)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 11:16 pm
Thanks Jess - nothing new there! Raanan Gissin stated years ago that he appreciates the self-censoring of the Israeli media. Now this doesn't seem enough anymore - so one has to resort to "tougher" means ... as if this helps in today's world village - LOL.

Absolutely agree with Freya's comment!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 11:46 pm
Shared to spread awareness.

Obviously fascist/racist/xenophobic regimes such Israel, Korea, China hate the fact that their citizens can and are able to think for themselves, and being social creatures, as we all are, strive to cut off that oxygen supply.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 12:31 am
Ah, my friends -
We are encouraged to discuss and expose Korean, Chinese, Turkish & ANY other gag practices by authorities ... but when the perpetrator is the Israeli government, it is considered "Anti-Semitic" to mention the realities there!!

Freya says it perfectly! ***********************************

(And remember - Israelis, as well as Jews abroad - such as Richard Silverstein - are subject to such gagging. But - as discreetly as possible; after all, Israel wishes to be considered the most democratic country in the Middle East!)

Israel's situation is getting more and more like the Albania of Enver Hoxha. Enver Hoxha cut his country off from communications from abroad, told his people that they lived in the most perfect state and that the rest of the world were extremely jealous ... so had to be kept out in order to protect Albania & the Albanians! When stories came in about other countries, he called them "misinformation", and clamped down on the sources. And his people trusted him. But after he died, information started to seep in .. and when the Albanians realised how false this picture had been, they rose up. In their anger & deception at having been so misled, youth went out, destroyed schools, clinics, any government institutions they could ... Not exactly a constructive response, because the service infrastructure has had to be rebuilt ... with limited means ... But deception of a people, denial of truth that is not comfortable, tends to lead to anger when people wake up to reality.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 12:33 am
At least some news media within Israel are still able to provide facts - even uncomfortable ones!
The source of this article is one of them ...
 

Eleonora O (37)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 1:26 am

Spot on, Evelyn!! Some more Green Stars for you ***************************

The same holds truth when it comes to exposing the crimes committed by the Israeli Government against the Yemeni Jews who had their children snatched away in the early days. We're allowed to discuss the very same in other countries ... but when Israel is the culprit ... it's anti-Semitic.

The same goes for BDS - if it concerns Iraq, Iran or Russia ... we were/are all encouraged to these countries... but when Israel is the culprit ... it's anti-Semitic.

The same goes for occupying foreign land ... when Iraq invaded Kuwait (it's former 19th province BTW) ... we were all outraged and agreed to BDS and even bombard Iraq to smithereens ... but when Israel is the culprit ... it's anti-Semitic.

The same goes for Apartheid ... we were encouraged to stand up against South Africa ... but when Israel is the culprit ... it's anti-Semitic.

And the list goes on and on ...

Will Israel and its supporters ever be able to have a good look in the mirror?!
 

. (0)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 11:59 am
tweet tweet tweet
 

Eleonora O (37)
Thursday August 11, 2016, 11:38 pm

Just read this article on Haaretz which touches the overall subject:

Netanyahu’s Freedom-quashing Plan to Ban Reporters’ Secret Recordings

Recording without the other person knowing is a way to reveal injustices, so the prime minister’s plan would deny the public the little power it has.

Ido Baum
Aug 12, 2016 8:16 AM

Benjamin Netanyahu excels at manipulations that keep the media busy; one of the prime minister’s techniques is to suggest ways to attack reporters. Channel 10 News revealed one such plan to criminalize secret recordings.

His proposal is probably in the initial stages and many details are unknown, but the repercussions are clear. Recorded documentation is power. Anyone today can record with a simple device like a smartphone; it’s the public’s main tool to rein in powers like the state or large corporations.

Recording without the other person knowing is a way to reveal injustices. It’s a way to prove discrimination at a club entrance, document racist hiring practices, and catch employers harassing employees. Netanyahu’s initiative is an attempt to deny citizens the little power they have. What the state may do, the people will not be allowed to do.

The media is the main victim of such recording bans, so law enforcement and the fight against corruption would suffer. Recall aide Shula Zaken’s recordings of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, without which he never would have been convicted of accepting bribes.

The work of journalism includes such recordings every day, even if many of them never reach the public. They are preserved to protect the reporter if an inverviewee sues for libel. Still, investigative journalism is disappearing because of its high cost, and a ban on recordings would drive another nail into the gatekeepers’ coffin.

Such a law could also affect major corporations. It’s unclear, for example, if the law would forbid recording people without their knowledge. If so, companies would have to change their “some conversations are recorded” message over the phone.

The current legal situation, allowing recording with only the recorder’s knowledge, is identical to U.S. federal law. But 12 U.S. states have restrictive laws from which Netanyahu seems to draw inspiration.

Such tough laws are perceived as a way to protect the right to privacy, which is also a right in Israel with a constitutional basis. Still, even in the stricter states, the ban on recording is perceived as archaic, and the courts show an openness toward recordings made for goals perceived as legitimate.

Indeed, Netanyahu’s proposal pleases the Erdogans and Putins of the world, leaders who fear the power of their citizens and prefer to weaken them.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday August 12, 2016, 7:03 am
********************** Eleonora!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday August 12, 2016, 7:22 am
More info on the actual tweet:
Twitter Agrees To Remove Tweet At Israel’s Request
 

Peggy B (43)
Friday August 12, 2016, 10:04 am
Loving the comments for this article. TYFS
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday August 12, 2016, 10:12 am
Blah! Blah! Blah! Here we go again. More JEW HATE. Are Jess and Sam working in tandem? If it's not one it's the other. With Evelyn waving the flag!

DISGUSTING.

The facts: ONE tweet was removed. ONE.
Iran has for years blocked all access to the whole of Twitter for years. Not a word from these three.
China has blocked all access to the whole of Twitter for years. Not a word from these three.
Turkey blocked all access to the whole of Twitter in 2014. Not a word from these three.
Egypt blocked all access to the whole of Twitter back in 2011. Not a word from these three.
France blocked a number of Tweets back in 2013 and forced Twitter to identify the poster. Not a word from these three.
Israel blocks one Tweet and ... meltdown!

Evelyn: Read your own post. An alleged sexual assault. ALLEGED i.e. it may not be true. By broadcasting claims to the world the person involved has prejudiced a free and fair trial.
And identifying a child who may have been the victim of a sexual assault ... That's not only illegal, it's beyond contempt.
Virtually any country in the world would have done what Israel did.

Twitter has a dedicated section for the purpose and actively invites governments to make claims to remove Tweets that violate their respective legal codes.
 

. (0)
Friday August 12, 2016, 10:22 am
john you are so right
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday August 12, 2016, 12:04 pm
Thank you, Daryl
 

fly bird (26)
Friday August 12, 2016, 3:01 pm
Thank you stars ***************** to Evelyn and Eleonora, for comments and links, related to the subject of this article.

(yada, yada, yada.. john is going off topic, again, as if, by design... )
 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday August 12, 2016, 4:14 pm

Thanks for the additional link, Evelyn. I'm kind of "astonished" how listing facts can be turned into Jew hatred?! But I guess anything goes these days - LOL. Anyway - for those who can't be bothered to click on links and READ:

"Silverstein previously broke stories blocked in Israel under gag orders; the blogger describes himself as “a thorn in the side” of Israeli censors.

In this case, his tweet—concerning an alleged sexual assault by a senior justice ministry employee on his daughter—may have violated Israeli law on identifying minors. The justice ministry did not respond to requests for clarification.

A Twitter spokesperson told Vocativ that they could not comment on individual accounts but that “…if we receive a valid and properly scoped request from an authorized entity, it may be necessary to reactively withhold access to certain content in a particular country from time to time.”

As far as Silverstein was concerned, however, the move came against a backdrop of rising state pressure to control the free flow of information.

“This is part of a larger orchestrated campaign to bring all media in Israel to heel,” he told Vocativ. Silverstein noted in particular “attacks on Palestinians using social media to oppose occupation.”

This is not the first time Israeli authorities have reached out to U.S.-based media outlets with censorship requests. Indeed, some ostensibly benign platforms have become a chief irritant for the Israeli government, as they struggle to combat a wave of political violence that has been ongoing since October 2015.

Hundreds of Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel have been detained by security services as a consequence of their social media posts, bolstering the claims of government critics that the country’s Arab minority has been disproportionately targeted. Palestinian Arabs comprise 20 percent of Israel’s population. In theory, they have the same rights as Jewish citizens. Palestinians in the West Bank are governed by Israeli military law, which has its own wide-ranging definitions.

Dareen Tatour, a 35-year-old poet and Arab-Palestinian citizen of Israel, was arrested on charges of inciting violence via her poetry, which she posted on Facebook. And so was 19-year-old Anas Khateeb, whose Facebook statuses included “Jerusalem is Arab,” and “Long live the Intifada.”

Israel’s Public Security Minister, Gilad Erdan, made the link between social media and government security concerns explicit in July—after a teenage Palestinian boy stabbed a 13-year old Jewish girl to death in the West Bank settlement of Kiryat Arba, near Hebron.

“Facebook has turned into a monster,” Erdan told Israel Channel 2 television. “The younger generation in the Palestinian Authority runs its entire discourse of incitement and lies and finally goes out to commit murderous acts on Facebook’s platform.”

Israeli lawmakers leaped into legislative action to produce a so-called Facebook bill, aimed at forcing social media platforms to remove material an Israeli court deemed dangerous to Israel’s security.

Another bill has called for large fines to be levied on platforms that refused to remove alleged incitement content within 48 hours."

I have this strange impression that it concerns a bit more than "blocking one Tweet" - but that's me. Maybe it has to do with the fact that English is not my mother tongue?

A curious effect which I often note is the fact that we're always supposed to criticize all the ills of this world before we dare to mention Israel? How's that?

If Islamic terrorism is mentioned ... do they always first mention Jewish, Christian and Atheist terrorism?

If domestic violence is branded as "typical Muslim" because some Muslims beat their wives and it says so in the Qur'an ... do they always first mention Jewish and Christian domestic violence which is also sanctioned in the Torah and the Bible?

If ... yeah ... I seem to be missing all those comments and posts ...

 

fly bird (26)
Friday August 12, 2016, 9:46 pm
Thanks for the text, Eleonora!

 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 3:45 am
Oh, Eleonora - anything about Zionist policies & Israel is about Jew Hate to John!! It's an excuse for him to deviate attention while attacking those who don't share his blinkers!!!

At one point, in the US, people saw reds under every bed.
John sees anti-Semites & Jew haters there instead of reds! (And won't risk contaminating himself by reading the articles & links ... to check whether his assumptions are actually fair!)
 

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 5:33 am
Bravo Jess! Bravo Evelyn! Bravo Eleonora! The double-standards gang strike again!

 

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 5:44 am
Just done a whole Care2 search ...

When Egypt blocked the whole of Twitter - threads on Care2 - NONE
(Eleonora is from Egypt)

When France blocked numerous tweets from Twitter and forced them to reveal the identity of the poster - threads on Care2 - NONE
(Evelyn is from France)

When China, Turkey, Egypt totally blocked Twitter and India and Pakistan imposed various restrictions - threads on Care2 from Jess - NONE

One tweet that illegally named a child victim of a potential sexual assault and prejudiced a free and fair trial gets removed, quite rightly, and because its from Israel ... Any excuse to spread hate.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 3:18 pm

John - I'm quite certain that you know the old saying (one of my favorite ones if not THE favorite!): in pointing one finger at others ... three always point back at you - LOL!

Why are you so one-eyed ... and that one is even blind? Can't you get yourself to read at least my post of Friday August 12, 2016, 4:14 pm as you seem to refuse to follow the link? It is served to you on a silver platter; what ore can one do for you?! You'd see that there's much more to it than what you would like to make of it. It's not just one tweet - who the heck would care about that?!

Maybe you can satisfy my curiosity: we (Jess, Evelyn, Sam, Carrie, myself - apologies if I missed someone!) are constantly and non-stop accused of posting anti-Semitic, Jew-hating and what-have-you material regarding Israel. You know this typical wishi-washy statements which try to smear everyone and are void of any substance leave alone solid evidence?!

Where does any of us here on the thread spread Jew-hatred and/or anti-Semitism? Please give me just one concrete case.

And my apologies that I do not do the necessary and kowtow to today's demand - I still decide MYSELF what, who and when I post and/or criticize. I'm not in the habit of asking anyone's permission and I do not intend to start such bad habit now.

Tip of the day: if you don't like Jess' postings and/or the comments therein ... just don't visit this site. Easy, eh?
 

Roger G (148)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 4:06 pm
noted, thanks
 

fly bird (26)
Saturday August 13, 2016, 10:12 pm
There are no double standards.

John De A, you seem bothered by posters and commentators, who do not agree with your opinions.

Seems like, that is your standard. Maybe, it is time to adjust your expectations, or face the fact that you cannot control other people's views.
 

addy J (1)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 1:24 am
noted, thanks for caring
 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 5:27 am
Jess: I'm bothered by people who promote RACIAL HATRED.





 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 5:31 am
Jess PS: Someone using a child who may have been the victim of sexual assault, promoting her identity on a global forum and for what? So you can stir up some anti-Semitic sentiment.
That's rock bottom even by your standards.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 5:35 am
Jess PPS: What if the distress and the humiliation of 'everyone knows' causes this young girl to take her own life? Have you thought about that?

Many victims of sexual assault do attempt suicide, even without race haters putting their name up in lights on social media.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 9:34 am

Jess, my friend - it seems one of your comments has been deleted as I can't find where you promote RACIAL hatred?! Did you go against Africans? Arabs? Caucasians? or Asians ... who of the various races did you attack? And what has gotten into you? You've never done this in the past!! You know ... you really shouldn't do this!!
 

Eleonora O (37)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 9:38 am

PS for Jess: you really shouldn't have published her name, address and current residence - although I can't find the posting were you promote her identity either. Must have been deleted too. In any case: this is not very nice of you. Only if the abused girl is a Muslim girl ... then you can - no, you must - even publish her picture as this has ever so often been done by certain members on C2 ... without anyone raising a protest.
 

fly bird (26)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 1:09 pm
Thank you, Eleonora. No, none of my comments were deleted..

I have no interest in spinning things to promote or encourage hatred of any kind - even, if some choose to do so.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 4:02 pm
Jess; Really?! The title, the tags and the write-up - and the obvious intent - speak for themselves.

I had not heard of this until you brought it up. Darren had not heard of it. Seemingly everyone here had not heard of it.
By doing this you are helping to disclose the identity of a 14 year old child, who may have been the victim of a sexual assault, to a global audience, so you can score some cheap anti-Semitic points. That really is repulsive behaviour.

This thread should be taken down.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 4:37 pm

It was more of a rhetorical question, Jess, as you'd never make any such comments. But as you were relentlessly accused of ... see my comment of Sunday August 14, 2016, 9:34 am as well as Sunday August 14, 2016, 9:38 am ... I thought we should clarify this issue. Thanks anyway for the confirmation.

I find it rather reprehensible and repulsive how John accuses you non-stop to disclose the identity and details of a possible assault victim (which is NOT the subject of your post anyway) and then goes on to disclose details about this possible victim!

It's beyond me that someone can stoop so low and has no shame accusing others of his wrongdoings ... and this in public.

Maybe that's after all the reason why he wants this thread taken down? So nobody can follow the sequence of events later?

There is a good reason that Care2 urges its members "not to feed the trolls"!

Stay safe, Jess!!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday August 14, 2016, 5:19 pm
You're becoming embarrassing, Eleonora.

Israel, all Western countries and indeed almost all countries in the world protect BY LAW victims of sexual assault from being identified, especially so when the victim is a CHILD!!!!!!!
The Israeli Justice Department was perfectly justified in requesting Twitter to remove the offending tweets, and any other country would have done the same.

As for your jibe of 'stooping so low', a bit rich isn't it? Regarding Jess's conduct and your shameless defence of her actions, it's hard to imagine anyone could be so spiteful, immoral and irresponsible.

And yes, this thread should be taken down. It should never have been posted in the first place.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Monday August 15, 2016, 12:08 am

Well John - IF I would become embarrassing ... which I don't ... then it would be my problem and not yours, right? Right.

As for the spin (that she exposes with it a minor who was possibly a victim of a sexual assault) you're trying to put on Jess' article about censorship in Israel ... yes, if you'd CARE to read the article you'd realize what it's all about ... it's YOU who does all the dirty work in bringing that young person out in the open ... only to then trying to put the blame on Jess.

In your hatred and eagerness to disseminate rubbish and smear and slander Jess' name you overlook a simple fact: everyone - except you - would read the original article and what it's all about. Not so you - you keep going and going and going (like a worn out yo-yo) at something which isn't there in the first place to construct a case which doesn't exist.

As for your second last para above: ever since I read your comments and the ones of those other totally blind apologists for any actions of the Zionist regime in Israel I do know that "spiteful, immoral and irresponsible" people have multiplied at an alarming rate. I equally note, though with happiness and pride, that Jews of all walks of life stand up against the doings of you and your likes.

The look in the mirror is difficult and in your case disgraceful - but maybe you should give it a try nevertheless.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 15, 2016, 12:39 am
Reshared original article posted by Jess.

John. . . a LOT of news content that comes on CARE2 I haven't heard about previously, as I cannot be AWARE of every news item that appears worldwide. I'm quite aware of the fact that given Benjamin Netanyahu is the supposed leader of the regime in Israel, that, by definition, ANYTHING or ANYONE who criticizes him or his regime, is deemed subversive, a traitor, an "enemy of the state" (like the bullsh$t on Julian Assange AND Edward Snowden), and therefore regimes such as Israel like to suppress or remove anything from public viewing.

That's called mind control. Check out Mark Passio on Natural Law if you don't know what mind control is.

As regards the balance between what is considered FACT and what is simply ALLEGED, I prefer a public be given access to ALL available information, so that they can make their minds up, and vote, if necessary, accordingly. No government (which is a SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE by the way), or Corporate body has ANY seal of approval over truth, UNLESS the majority public accepts it as such, and this is also providing that the public are reasonably intelligent, compassion and sensitive. . . i.e. adult.

I do not like regimes or people who think they can make decisions ON MY BEHALF, if I haven't been consulted first. A vote for a government DOESN'T imply that you consent and agree to EVERY item or action that they carry out, UNLESS it's a specifically stated intent that you agree with and vote upon.

As regards social media, twitter, facebook, etc. NO GOVERNMENT or Corporate institution has got control or authority over what is essentially a public medium (social media, does what it says on the tin), therefore they shouldn't be in a position to request certain information shared be suppressed or blocked.

Finally, if it wasn't for alternative press/media, your actual body of knowledge would be severely curtailed, and the current power possessors would be getting away with far more atrocities than they currently do.

So, we should applaud the fact we have more information at our fingertips to make better decisions.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday August 15, 2016, 1:46 am
Eleonora: You are still embarrassing yourself. Jess is highlighting what? That the Israeli Justice Department requested the removal of a tweet that identified an alleged victim of sexual assault, who as it happens is only 14.
THAT Is what was 'censored'. THAT is what Jess is highlighting on here, a global forum.

And what does she get out of it? I guess the idea was, as usual with your gang, to discredit Israel. Bully for her. What if this girl commits suicide as a result of all of this?

Have you got a daughter, Eleonora? If you have and she was sexually assaulted, would you consider it fair game for someone with a grudge against Egypt to highlight information that could readily identify her on global social media?
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday August 15, 2016, 1:55 am
Darren: I see you retweeted this story, I'm guessing without understanding what was involved. I wouldn't and don't blame you for that. You were deceived.

I don't see 'censorship' on social media when it comes to Israel. Until recently there was a 'Stab Israelis' page on Facebook, which they had repeatedly refused to take down. Plus all manner of Pallywod stories and yes, stories of wrongdoing by the IDF that were true. A mixed bag of lies, half-truths and truth. The Internet is the Wild West, I'd agree with you there.

But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and when it comes to publicly identifying victims of sexual assault ... Doesn't matter what nationality or religion they are.

If you recall in the Ched Evans case, the victim was protected by law also. Yet some people named her on Twitter. The British Justice Department got the tweets removed, same as in this case. No different.
And as I recall the perpetrators were jailed for contempt of court.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 15, 2016, 2:30 am
There is a reason why we have "alternative" media, as opposed to mainstream Press/Media, John.

Mainstream is the orthodox establishment. The orthodox establishment is the main controlling body that would seek to try and convince you that slavery and oppression doesn't exist. When social media and then alternative media get frenzied over reports that people can get ONTO social media and alternative media, the orthodox mainstream Press/Media, in effect, HAVE to get involved, to give the impression to their conditioned readers, that they're aware and on top of things.

Kirsty Wark interviewed Derek Hatton on BBC's Newsnight a few nights ago, and as soon as Derek Hatton mentioned the right-wing Daily Express and Daily Mail and Conservatives and their treatment of Jeremy Corbyn in the same sentence, which has been abysmal, Wark talked over him.

Jeremy Corbyn is routinely vilified in the British Mainstream press. He has a HUGE social media following.
Netanyahu is HARDLY EVER mentioned in the mainstream press/media, and is usually painted as the leader and not war-aggressor.
Likewide, Saudi Arabia is hardly ever mentioned in the mainstream Press/Media and certainly NEVER negatively. I learned about women being banned from driving on CARE2.

In case you hadn't noticed also, the LAW as applied differs from country to country, in the States, from State to State. There is NO Universal Law, because each country, culture, society has its own rules and regulations that it applies or doesn't apply, as the majority or those in control see fit.

The British Justice Department is no different AND just as dysfunctional as the American Justice Department.

. . .and while we all have these cases going on, you have WAR mongers in charge of the asylum, prepared to wage war on other countries, with innocents being killed along the way.

. . . and BTW, SOME victims of sexual assault prefer their stories be told, just to highlight what they're going through, and hopefully encourage others to come through.

Also, of course, SOME news WILL be exposed on social media. Given anyone with a computer and telephone line can access, then you cannot control what some will do. Hence terrorists/freedom fighters will use social media.

Trying to control the media that people use, is missing the point and telling you that the "Authorities" don't like NOT being able to control, what WAS previously controlled by them.

Ched Evans is not the first footballer to ever transgress and he certainly won't be the last. When you have some power and money and a fanbase telling you you're a god, some of your behavior is likely to correspond to that. I don't doubt also, that some will invent stories to get a little attention, or put someone they hate down, or because some press agent has told them they might make a few pounds.

Bit of a mess, eh, John?

Main issue for me is behaving responsibly. How many power-possessors behave responsibly, when they think and believe they have the right to deprive others of their lives. . .?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday August 15, 2016, 10:09 am
The only person I see embarrassing himself in these threads is John, actually!
Personal attacks.

Twisting what we post (in comments or stories) ... WHO posted the link to the quotes he then uses to try to prove that we are anti-Semitic???? I read the story - which gives more complete background
And Eleonora then shared the text ...

In another thread he attacks me ... us ...
""Evelyn: Thread 'Syria: Stop the Bombs' You're such a great humanitarian! with plenty of time on your hands it would seem. Yet you've not posted in that thread, neither has Sam or Jess or Eleonora or the other one ... I can't help thinking that's strange.

Wrong sort of victims? "

The day BEFORE his friend Cal posted a link to this petition, there was ALREADY a link posted as a C2NN story:
Stop the Bombs (PETITION - PLEASE SIGN)

John's "careful searching" misses anything that doesn't confirm his hate-driven view of us ...
I wonder why he only signed when he saw his friend's posting?

Oh, yes, I can guess why
- he makes assumptions that guide his judgement, without bothering to check ...
So he wouldn't choose to open AND READ stories posted by those who he has classified as "anti-Semitic", "Jew-haters", those he accuses systematically of only posting stories to promote hatred ... of Jews
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday August 15, 2016, 10:30 am
Eleonora - ********************************************************
For YET AGAIN pointing out a reality that shows that John doesn't speak for Jews as a total population group ...

THIS article (and the title) comes from AN ISRAELI SITE (how anti-Semitic can Jess get, daring to share a perspective published by Israelis?????)

In most discussions, most of those who are concerned about Palestinian human rights stress .... over & over again ... that the Israeli Government & Political Zionist positions DO NOT represent the perceptions of ALL Jews ... FAR from it. Criticism of policies & strategies that go against human rights is NOT racism ...

In fact, I believe it is more harmful to Israeli interests to encourage & support denial of such abuse than to make efforts to bring such wrongs into recognition so that they can be addressed. And in that, I am in harmony with a number of (Jewish) Israelis who are VERY concerned about what "denial" is doing to the State of Israel and those of its people who live this denial.

I invite readers to see for themselves where the most "hate full" comments are in this thread ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday August 15, 2016, 12:06 pm
Darren: Sub judice is a universal principle of law, enforced day in day out across the globe. As is the law principle of a man being innocent until proven guilty and the right of anonymity for victims of sexual assault.

These people here may be trying to paint Israel black, as is their agenda, but the fact of the matter is the case in question here is nothing whatsoever unusual. Take this country for example, any newspaper, magazine, website or other media outlet is forbidden from publishing information that would identify the victim of a sexual assault - and the person in question is only a child of 14 remember - and if they did identify her, as has happened here, they'd be hauled before a judge and sent to prison.

Whilst, as you say, some victims do find an outlet for their pain by telling their story, I hardly think that is the case in this instance. The child in question is 14 years old, still at school, and I suspect profoundly distressed that her name and details of what is alleged to have happened to her being bandied about on the Internet. Such a thing would break most people at any age, never mind the tender age of 14.

Is it just me????? I find the whole thing monstrous. Some people seem to be morally bankrupt.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday August 15, 2016, 12:32 pm
Wiki's 'Censorship of Twitter' page is worth reading to see not just how spiteful this thread is, but how ridiculous.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Monday August 15, 2016, 2:51 pm
Hi Evelyn ;-). Thanks for the stars ***************** I find it rather childish how John can throw a temper tantrum over something he INVENTED in the first place (exposing the identity) ... twist and falsify it, throw it back at Jess (and others) and level abominable accusations at everyone who doesn't agree with his "interpretation of facts". There's a term in psychology for such behavior ...

I trust that every reader has made up his/her mind who the hateful "spittler" is - all one needs to do is read this thread.

I've copied this thread to keep it as future reference as at will sure be used in one way or another to smear any or all of the participants here who don't agree with John's warped interpretations.

As for your comment: "So he wouldn't choose to open AND READ stories posted by those who he has classified as "anti-Semitic", "Jew-haters", those he accuses systematically of only posting stories to promote hatred ... of Jews " - he follows the very same pattern as we have witnessed in the past here on Care2 umpteen times. He has the audacity to level unfounded accusations at everyone he deem "worthy" without ever providing any solid evidence (see my unanswered comment of Saturday August 13, 2016, 3:18 pm). Mud slinging in the hope that something will eventually stick ... overlooking the fact that the only person his mud sticks to ... is he himself. He has become the laughing stock of any normal thinking person by now.

But then ... this is not my problem nor my concern.

Summa summarum - if one has a shred of intellectual honesty one has to admit that Israel too is heavily censoring and generally controlling the flow of information. Anyone who is not comfortable that this fact is exposed ... can bang his/her head against the wall; it doesn't change an iota on proven facts. The same way censorship and gagging is exposed re any other country it is allowed to do so when it comes to the "holy cow" of the Middle East: Israel (I know this sentence will be misused at some point against me ... so be it!).

BTW - this is a perfect example of how identity and loyalty works ... - Republican Election Centers open in Israel.
 

Wendi M (9)
Monday August 15, 2016, 7:20 pm
Noted
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday August 15, 2016, 10:51 pm
Eleonora
I have yet to see the least backing down & apology for erroneous statements, either (even when there is blatant proof of error!!!) :=)
 

Eleonora O (37)
Monday August 15, 2016, 10:59 pm

Evelyn - that'll be the day!! They don't know the word. I like how polite you are in calling it "erroneous statements"; I call it simply blatant lies and fabrications.

In the context of the ongoing attempt by Israel to censor worldwide the right to information you and other participants may want to sign this petition: Petition: Facebook just crossed a line.

Naturally I don't expect that the "John's" of this world would ever dream of signing such a petition. After all it was only a little 5 year old non-Jewish black boy who got hurt and his 23 year old non-Jewish black mother who got killed by the police. So no bother there for our upright fighter(s). So sad and so telling.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 15, 2016, 11:20 pm
John, the current power-possessors are morally and ethically bankrupt.

The continuation of Corporate Capitalism and right-wing thinking predominating in the U.S., Middle East, Europe and the U.K., with people being willing and prepared to bomb people will continue and more atrocities will be perpetuated, and more self-righteous indignation and self-congratulation will also continue.

In order to redress and rebalance, the egos of the power-possessors need to take on a massive metanoia.

Netanyahu and his regime are thuggish in intent. The U.S. by continuing to fund and bomb behave lifewise.

Our new Prime Minister, Theresa May is another war-monger.

Humankind is heading in the wrong direction as regards any "progress" or evolution.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 2:51 am
Evelyn: Cal's 'Stop the Bombing' thread was there first. (August 9th) If there was already a thread, why did you feel the need to start (August 10th) an exact identical one????
And Cal's thread is there NOW on the World news page, where it should be. Yours is nowhere to be seen!

Eleonora: I'm so sorry to interrupt your game of 'slop bucket challenge'.
When your country blocked the whole of Twitter as an act of censorship, you said nothing.
When one tweet is removed from Twitter on the grounds of it being sub judice, prejudicing a free and fair trial and identifying - as it did - the 14 year old victim of an alleged sexual assault, you and your gang here go into overdrive. Just because it involves Israel.
As I said earlier and you dodged answering, have you got a daughter? If you have, and she had been the victim of a sexual assault, would you consider it fair game for someone who has a grudge against Egypt to publicize your daughter's identity all over social media just to score some cheap political points? And what would you think of them if they did?

The Jew-bashing intent of Jess's post is obvious. The implication that Israel was trying to hide some great secret and people should seek to find out what it was is also obvious.
Jess was fully aware of what the removed tweet was about and in publicising the fact, and highlighting that fellow and his website, she knew what she was doing.

 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 2:54 am
Darren: Was it not ever so? With a few exceptions.

'May peace prevail on earth'
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 4:05 am
John - as usual, you read things as they suit you.
If anyone should have checked, it was Cal
("Cal - 5 days ago - medicsunderfire.org " whereas "Evelyn - 6 days ago - medicsunderfire.org" - the timings as currently reflected under the two posts. It is the timing of the first comment, not the timing of the actual post, that suggest the opposite.)

But your reply is simply a way of avoiding apologising for your mistaken attack on me -

The fact that Cal posted the same story doesn't worry me at all - he has a large following and usually has his stories on the front page so it catches more attention. I don't know why you feel it necessary to make a song and dance about duplicate posting ...
Except, of course, that you wanted to attack me and avoid apologising for the inappropriate accusation that you made. The timings are irrelevant to the accusation you made days later ....

Which is par for the course from you ...

If one seeks proof of "hate" against a people, (particularly from a position of hating), one can always SEE it - even when it is not there.

And you fail to explain why anything posted by an Israeli site is "forbidden" to anyone who shares critical comments of a group that you want to keep "whitewashed", above and outside any criticism.

The "overdrive" in this thread is largely signed by John ...
Whose comments should probably be ignored as they are rooted in wish to aggress ... not fair analysis.

One example being claims of an inversion of timing, to suit an attack rather than to reflect what is ACTUALLY reflected in the posts ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 8:51 am
Evelyn: What? You are the one who wanted to make a song and dance out of it. If Cal had just put his thread up, you doing an identical thread almost immediately afterwards achieved what? The small handful of people who signed yours would have signed Cals' anyway.
And double-posting is irresponsible because it knocks a thread that might well be worthy and in need of help and publicity off the all-important first page.
As it happens, your thread isn't even visible on the boards, which may be why people aren't signing it!

Anyone with an afternoon to spare can waste it counting the number of anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish threads you and your gang have put up and posted in.
'You' never seem short of ideas, though they are becoming increasingly tenuous - what next 'Jew steps on ant'?! I'm sure you can come up with something other than a vile tweet that violated the sub judice law, prejudiced a free and fair trial, and identified a child victim of an alleged sexual assault.

 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 10:30 am
WHO raised discussion of a totally tangential petition (with accusation of "not having responded to such a petition") - then sidesteps an apology for a wrongful judgement by trying to make an issue of who posted first ... and sticks to dates of COMMENTS rather than C2NN dating of the actual post in order to continue to avoid a simple apology - all John had to say was: "I was wrong - you had shown concern, it just wasn't in the posted story that I had seen"

Double posting happens - and usually those concerned tip their cap to the other when they realise, without searching to create a fuss, insult, etc.

As I said ... I have no problem when Cal double posts - he has a large following and I'm glad to see him getting stories up on the Front Page - & in the eye of more members. He's been very good at this for many years, and I respect him for it.

Others who also sometimes "duplicate" my posts but I'm glad because they too usually get wider audiences, are Dandelion & Carrie ...

The important thing is to draw attention to stories & petitions - NOT the ego of the poster.

CAL has no ego problem - he just wants to get info out under the members' eyes.
WHICH, incidentally, is why a number of us "badgered" Care2 when he was (accidentally) suspended a few months ago ... Strangely enough, most of those who followed up his "disappearance" proactively were NOT his friends on Care2 but who nevertheless respect Cal for his important contribution to C2NN, the range of stories & petitions that he posts ...

I'm not at all sure that he merits being "used" as a weapon against those who John dislikes!!
 

Eleonora O (37)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 2:34 pm
John, I can’t help but reading your comments you very much resemble my little friend here; it's actually striking.

Just for the record, John – would you ever bother to read what the subject of this discussion (and others too) is you wouldn’t make such childish (see your insinuation that “I embarrass myself” – LOL!), redundant and repetitive comments like the ones you keep posting here. The points in question are the various attempts by the Israeli government to get a worldwide censorship working in order to protect the Zionist regime and its actions; like as an example the case against Anat Kamm, which is also mentioned in the article posted by Jess.

I don’t think that e.g. Anat Kamm qualifies as your constructed “14 years old possible sexual assault victim” for whose life you pretend to fear … a seemingly fictitious case nota bene of which you’re the only one keen of continuously exposing personal details about.

And as I mentioned earlier too - if non-Israeli under-aged sexual assault victims are exposed in picture and by name you never make a fuss ... and I bet my last penny that you haven't signed the petition which I posted further up ... as the victim of this police brutality is black and non-Jewish and it doesn't matter to you that it has been censored.

Although you steadfast refuse to answer questions posed to you in previous comments on this thread … let me satisfy your curiosity as it seems to bug you immensely: whether or not I have a daughter is none of your business. But if someone would want to score some cheap points against Switzerland (Egypt is only my country of residence) and sees this as the only way to do it … be my guest.

As you seem to be hard of understanding, John – let me repeat it: YOU are attempting (in vain) to construct a case which doesn’t exist in the first place. You can repeat it until you go blue in the face it doesn’t exist.

But keep going – you seem to have nothing better to do.

IF one would want to score some good political points against Israel then there would be plenty of solid material out there; all one needs to do is to read the Israeli newspaper or listen to the various TV channels. As the article posted by Jess from an Israeli source so aptly demonstrates.

I rest my case. It's futile and a waste of my valuable time to further discuss with you. Keep trolling if it makes you happy and gives you some kind of satisfaction.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 3:02 pm

Evelyn - GS to you: ***************

"One example being claims of an inversion of timing, to suit an attack rather than to reflect what is ACTUALLY reflected in the posts ..." There he goes again is all I can say.

Regarding Cal and his erroneous suspension: I always thought it to be quite telling how those upright "Israel defenders" tried equally in vain to construct a case ... and not only fell flat on their faces too ... but they didn't even see it necessary to do a simple check with Care2 like I did. Although Cal is not on my friend's list I thought it the correct thing to do as he most often posts interesting articles.

It goes without saying that once the situation was clarified by Care2 none of those participants saw it fit to apologize for their venomous and slanderous accusations!

The same goes for those truly anti-Jewish postings with the Swastika and embedded text about the Jews in general back in August 2015. All those same upright Israel defenders didn't see it necessary to take any action. Even when I opened a thread in F&S none of them would join my demand that those be taken down.

But lo and behold ... five days later a certain ... lady ... saw it fit to post a special thread attacking Care2 as being anti-Semitic and what-have-you ... because of those comments against which they took no action although they were actively participating in those threads!

A certain "John de Avalon" commented there too ... LOL ...


The real interesting part though was that the Swastika postings appeared only after repeated demands to provide evidence that anti-Semitic comments are posted on Care2 ... honi soit qui mal y pense - LOL!
 

Eleonora O (37)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 3:06 pm

Just for clarity - the "lady" who complained so bitterly in August 2015 saw it fit to use a red flag with a black Swastika in a white circle rather than what the anti-Jewish poster used - which was a cube formed of little Swastikas with an embedded text. I just mention this because Sam and others are often viciously attacked by the "Zionist gang" for not using the original picture of an article ...
 

Lenore K (0)
Tuesday August 16, 2016, 4:44 pm
ty
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 2:06 am
Eleonora, ***************************************

And I think that "denial" & "apologising" seldom come together in people's thinking!
When there is determined effort to deny all except such narrative that allows one to reject any sense of shame, any need for apology is equally blanked out.
That is why peace-building requires some recognition of wrongs & abuses (from BOTH sides) in order to create a more open playing field upon which one can work on reconciliation. That's where Mandela started, to allow South Africa to move on out of their conflictual past. That's where Israel & Palestine need to go, to move on out of their conflictual present. Many Palestinians and a number of Israeli Jews are struggling to persuade both sides that this is the ONLY way forward ... But hasbara narrative goes directly against such principles ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 7:06 am
Evelyn: I don't see anyone using Cal a a 'weapon'. You're the one who wanted to make it personal.

Really? The number of times Muslim extremists have committed atrocities, someone subsequently has put up a thread and you and your gang have been conspicuous by your absence.
The Paris massacres the other month, for example, when scores of your countrymen were murdered in cold blood. To be fair, Jess posted and condemned, but Sam disappeared, Eleonora disappeared, Angelika disappeared and you were 'caring for a sick relative'.

Anyway, another Aleppo thread has just gone up so you and your gang can let everyone know and see how much you care. I'm sure you all can't wait to get there.


That the Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to sit down and talk, and compromise to achieve peace, that much is obvious.
To that ends, it is necessary to work to get in place peaceful and democratic governments on both sides.
Coupled with job creation to foster economic prosperity, probably THE one thing that could hold the peace.
Though you certainly won't achieve that by stirring up hate and championing thuggish boycotts.

Though it is at least good to see you conceding Israel's right of existence, and right of Israelis to live in peace - and the Palestinians likewise of course.


 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 9:41 am
I agree. Thanks for the comments, Eleonora and Evelyn. **********************************
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 9:53 am
Some people are too blinded by hate to allow for the fact that C2NN has thousands of stories posted daily, on many different topics, they just attack personally members who do not share their viewpoint ...
Without verifying their "assumptions" ... be it over where we post/ comment or (by use of "quote marks") insinuating that reasons given for our absence in a few articles they looked at were false reasons.

Sometimes they sink to the depths in their way of personal insulting. With no shame.

They are welcome to exchange their hate-driven thoughts with their friends - I'm wasting no more efforts to treat them with respect.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 3:08 pm

Evelyn - you put the finger right on the spot with your last two comments!

The problem is that Israel wants everything and more - but sure not peace. They fear peace like the "devil the holy water" so to say. Another one of the many examples what Israel really wants can be found here: Israel-EU tension up over rise in West Bank home demolitions

It's amazing in a way: Israel does nothing but destroy and destroy and destroy - be it repeatedly in Gaza or in the West Bank or in Lebanon and the EU keeps paying for the reconstruction. I often wonder how the EU taxpayers can agree to this insanity? The US taxpayers have gotten used to being stripped of the results of their hard work in favour of Israel but the Europeans? I wonder what the politicians put in their drinking water ...

I wonder if this is what some trolling participants here have in mind when they talk about "... job creation to foster economic prosperity ...". Israel keeps destroying, has the control finger on all the rebuilding material (see Gaza) and makes a great cut there, then destroys again and ... starts all over again. This system doesn't give the Palestinians anything in terms of economic prosperity - not even housing - but who cares about that anyway?!

With respect to your last posting, Evelyn - I always marvel at the impertinence some have in wanting to dictate to others what they have to read, note and comment. Yet at the same time they actively promote censorship like we see so apt in this thread. If we dare not to comply with their ridiculous demands ... we "disappear". That's what I call chutzpah!

Talking about the Nice attack: has anyone dared to mention that 1/3 of the victims in Nice were Muslims? No. The few times they were mentioned on social media one could read answers like "they deserved it" or "serves them right" and so on.

Now imagine for a moment if one would have made such comments about the French, American or English victims? That because France, America and England (among other Western nations) are in the habit of bombarding Muslim countries to smithereens it served those victims right to be killed ...?!?! The current President of the US - a Nobel Peace Price laureate!! - has in 7 years attacked and bombarded 7 sovereign nations; all of them Muslim states.

I guess one could fairly expect that those brown people accept the continuous bombardments and aggressions laying down on their bellies ... maybe they should also set-up a "thank you President Obama" petition and gather signatures?!

I can only shake my head in disbelief and fully agree with your last line: "They are welcome to exchange their hate-driven thoughts with their friends - I'm wasting no more efforts to treat them with respect."

The comments in the articles posted on C2NN about the Bangladesh and Mecca terrorist attacks have shown how deep the hatred runs. But WE are accused of hate ... it goes without saying that no evidence is ever provided for such behavior of ours.

As I said then I repeat now: we will never see
#Je suis Bangladesh
#Je suis Iraq
#Je suis Palestine
#Je suis Egypt
#Je suis Turkey
#Je suis Syria (proxy war for US and Israel)
#Je suis Libya
#Je suis Yemen (proxy war for US)

etc. nor will we ever see the world lit in the colors of any country that suffers from terror attacks - we only see this "sound and light" show if and when it concerns Western nations and naturally Israel.

The rest can go to hell! They don't count ...



 

Eleonora O (37)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 4:32 pm

I meant to put in these two links (and then forgot) to exemplify how Cal Mendelsohn was used as a weapon and how much the entire story was fabricated; in other words: a blunt lie.

ISIS Values Are Surpassed Only By Zionist Values!

Inquiring about a missing member, Cal Mendelsohn


 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday August 17, 2016, 11:05 pm
A friend of mine sent me this a while ago.

Moderately long, comprehensive article.
What ISIS really wants.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday August 18, 2016, 2:00 pm
Eleonora: Stop trying to deceive people. And stop spreading race hatred.

You mention all those cases. Strange I don't remember seeing you in any of those threads.

UN Agency puts up pre-fabricated 'homes'/buildings (they aren't occupied) without consulting or without requesting permission from the Israeli authorities, as they should do. A provocative and antagonistic act. Subsequently the Israelis pull them down.
Maybe it would be sensible if they liaised with the Israelis beforehand and agreed suitable sites acceptable to all parties.

I would remind you, Israeli land is a fraction today of what it was 20 years ago.
They surrendered the Sinai Peninsula, a huge area of land, to the Egyptians under the terms of the peace agreement.
They surrendered Gaza Province to the Palestinians in pursuit of peace, not that it did them any good.

I would also remind you. It was your country that illegally invaded, occupied and annexed Gaza Province from the Palestinians in 1948.

I also remind you that in tackling Hamas's terrorism, Egypt destroyed the smuggling tunnels, created a no-man's land all along the border with Gaza Province, demolished thousands of homes - 3,200 Palestinian families were driven out and left homeless - and imposed a full blockade on Gaza Province. [Whereas Israel permits 500-600 lorry load of goods into Gaza Province every day]

I remind you too that Jordan illegally invaded, occupied and annexed West Bank from the Palestinians in 1948.
In 1967 Jordan made a treacherous unprovoked and undeclared attack on Israel. The Israelis fought back and won against substantial odds, capturing the whole area. Israel would not be in the West Bank at all where it not for this.

And as for Cal. As Eric pointed out, Cal was not banned, has never been banned and hopefully never will be banned! It sounds to me like the reason you and Evelyn couldn't see his Care2 page must have been because he blocked you from seeing it, presumably because of anti-Semitic comments.

 

Eleonora O (37)
Thursday August 18, 2016, 4:58 pm

Hi John – now tell me: which one(s) of my points above triggered you losing totally your rockers? Although I intended to refrain from reacting to your miserable Hasbara rants I’d like to thank you for the good laugh I had reading your last comment. I know it was not your intent but I needed it as I had a tough day. Thanks a lot!

You can’t help it but make up stories/lies as you go on just to come on a thread and mark your presence.

This one (quote below) is a case example of how you take facts, twist and turn them around, prop them up and add whatever and serve them as presumably “new findings”. Don’t you get dizzy from spinning around yourself non-stop? It’s not my business really – just wondering and kind of worried for your health. Constant spinning is damaging to the brain cells, you know?

“It sounds to me like the reason you and Evelyn couldn't see his Care2 page must have been because he blocked you from seeing it, presumably because of anti-Semitic comments.”

Show me, John dearest, where did I ever say that I couldn’t see Cal’s C2 page? It was your good friend Alexa who came up with this fairy-tale that Cal was suspended/banned and accused us of being responsible for it! You have actually a lot in common with Alexa – the both of you have no qualms in presenting outright lies as facts. Do you truly believe I would open a thread and ask Eric for help if I would be on bad terms with Cal? How crooked can you be, dear John?

You may want to talk about what the UN Agency does – be my guest. I am talking about what the EU tax payers have to finance time and again because Israel is allowed to act with impunity and cause wanton destruction wherever and whenever it wants. Could it be possible that you are unable to see the difference between the UN and the EU? It sure looks like it … although it sounds very much like out of the Hasbara Manual, page 8, chapter VI … or something of that ilk which is: change the subject if you don’t have solid arguments.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Thursday August 18, 2016, 5:15 pm

Now as for Egypt –although I’m honored to be counted as Egyptian I’m not as you well know. I just want to make this clear as one must correctly assume that at one point in the future you will produce one of your lies and say that I claim to be Egyptian … déjà-vu. Egypt is a great nation – you know a true nation! – with great people and a great history.

Out of my love for Egypt let me give you the links were your blatant lies quoted below have been set straight
“I also remind you that in tackling Hamas's terrorism, Egypt destroyed the smuggling tunnels, created a no-man's land all along the border with Gaza Province, demolished thousands of homes - 3,200 Palestinian families were driven out and left homeless - and imposed a full blockade on Gaza Province.”
and debunked already in discussions here on Care2 back in 2014.

Egypt demolishes homes along Gaza border

Egypt Expels Gazans

Unlike Israel … Egypt does compensate its citizens for the house demolitions and the laws apply to ALL.

Unlike Israel ... No one’s house should be demolished. But if that’s the law [in Israel], it must hold for Jews as well.. I wonder if the court is going to agree with the petition and apply the law in the Abu Khdeir case too … but I'm not holding my breath. If so, the (Jewish) house will definitely be re-built with state’s money.

Unlike Israel ... Egypt doesn’t steal foreign land to protect its citizens nor does it cut villages or families in halves.Egypt starts building steel wall on Gaza Strip border

I do believe though it’s a shame that Pres Sissi sees it fit to honor the Memorandum of Understanding which Mubarak signed with Israel and the US about supporting the blockade of Gaza. On the occasion the border crossing is opened but this is not enough.

Yet on the other hand I do appreciate that Egypt claims the very same right as Israel always does when it comes to security concerns and, thus, has an obligation towards its citizens and residents (like myself) to protect them from terror attacks. If you don’t like this – tough luck!

Just for the records: Egypt didn’t tackle Hamas’s terrorism – it tackled the terror of the Muslim Brothers who fled to Gaza as well as Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis who are just MBs in disguise. A terrorist organization which your government views as a “minority worthy of our protection” (ex-PM Cameron at a press conference in 2014!).

Reviewing your various comments I must confess that I like the Egyptian proverb very much: “Lies have no legs”. No wonder you keep falling flat on your face … LOL!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday August 19, 2016, 6:02 am
Eleonora - it isn't worth trying to have a rational, fact-based discussion with those who are only seeking to attack with lies! And lies that are very blatant (even when they follow hasbara guidelines)!
Do you remember Cal commenting on an assessment of Care2, while he found himself cut off from Care2 last spring ... before Eric was contacted (and made sure Cal could post & comment again)?
I think that many Care2 members became aware that he was cut off ... including his pro-Zionist friends (who opted to blame critics of Israeli policies & strategies, rather than seek to see if the problem could be solved!!)

Somehow - some of the comments in this thread seem to demonstrate the way that pro-Zionists are supportive of "gag order" strategies!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday August 19, 2016, 7:29 am
Eleonora: What's your point? You put the link up! As Eric pointed out, Cal 'is not and was not suspended' at any time. He could see his page. If anyone else couldn't it could only have been because he had blocked access to it.

Nobody is denying the rich history of Egypt. Though you don't seem to know much of it.
Yes they had a great civilization and a great empire. Though to say they didn't steal land from others .... Actually, they did rather a lot of it! That's how they built a great empire!!!! And they enslaved conquered peoples by the tens of thousands. Including the Jews of course - who have been resident in the Holy Land, continuously, for thousands of years.
That's thousands of years before Christianity and Islam turned up.

The annexation of Gaza Province by Egypt and West Bank by the Jordanians is a matter of historical record. Though an inconvenient truth no doubt for those with an anti-Semitic agenda. The Jews were attacked on all fronts by an Arab army intent on genocide, but the Jews fought back and won.
Yes they took some Palestinian land as 'war trophy', as happens in war. Though the Egyptians and Jordanians took far more land from the Palestinians than the Israelis did, and that's why Palestine disappeared from the map.

And again in 1967. Israel had no desire to enter war with Jordan and pleaded with them to maintain peace, but the Jordanians didn't listen and launched an unprovoked attack on Israel . And they managed to lose East Jerusalem and the whole of the West Bank when the Israelis counter-attacked in self-defence. And the rest as they say is history.

Again, you are wide of the mark. The Egyptians are blockading Gaza due to Hamas aiding terrorist insurgents in Sinai Peninsula. The blockade has been going on since 2007.

 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday August 19, 2016, 7:53 am
Evelyn: Well there are certainly no gagging orders on Care2 are there! There is constantly a Jew-bashing thread, often 2 or 3, on the 'World' section.
How stirring up racial hatred against an ethnic group squares with the Care2 ethos, you tell me.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday August 19, 2016, 12:47 pm

Evelyn - you sure remember the saying: “il faut bien s’amuser de temps à autre” … LOL!

You know the funny thing is that I wasn’t aware that Cal was cut off until Alexa et al made such an issue (link I provided above in my comment of Wednesday August 17, 2016, 4:32 pm), simply because he’s not on my friend’s list. Only when Alexa saw it fit to relentlessly attack all of us for his “banning” it became of interest to me and I did some fact checking. The rest is history and Alexa’s lie exposed to the full incl. her fabricated email she allegedly received – LOL. In retrospect it was fun to expose her – very much like it is fun to expose the continuous lies of John de Avalon. The birds of the feathers flock together … holds still true.

Interesting and quite telling in all this was the fact that none of Cal’s “friends” saw it necessary to reach out to Care2 – which confirms another saying: “who needs enemies with such friends” …?

Anyway – that’s water under the bridge. We know who we’re dealing with and, therefore, nothing comes really as a surprise.

Stay safe!
 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday August 19, 2016, 12:54 pm


John – why don’t you take a break and stop spinning around yourself? You’ve dug yourself in deep enough. Stop re-spinning the story about Cal it will not help you to get out of the hole either.

You can dig up the entire world history if you so wish – it doesn’t change an iota on the facts of what we’re discussing here. Hard as you may try you’ll fail.

And your nonsensical recount of recent history which every Israeli historian and politician of those times have debunked and came forth with the truth is not worth a second of my valuable time incl. the myth that Jews are an ethnic group. They’re a religious group (very much like the Christians and Muslims) and a great one for that matter.

Try to find someone else to play with – your games become kind of boring and childish. Sorry for being so blunt but it seems you don’t understand any other language.

Keep enjoying your outdated Hasbara narrative – there are no buyers anymore!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday August 20, 2016, 6:02 am
Eleonora: Another 'tactical' retreat?

Enough said.
 

Dawnie W (250)
Monday August 22, 2016, 7:23 am
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Walter F (128)
Thursday September 29, 2016, 11:01 pm
John thanks for your comments and your attempt to refute the the biased vitiated comments of the unofficial members o the American Anti Israel society ,They're so blinded by their hatred of Israel and its leaders they will believe anything detrimental and repeat it over and over in the hope it will be accepted.I seldom comment on their posts now ,they are beneath my contempt I didn't let this one pass by.without giving one word of support for you. Keep trying mate but with this hate filled mob I fear you are wasting your time
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday September 30, 2016, 2:35 am
Why does Israel HATE Palestinians so much?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday September 30, 2016, 3:52 am
Fear, Darren -
Many Israelis have never actually had any social contact with Palestinians (especially non-Israeli Palestinians). There are big warning signs in Hebrew on roads into Palestinian parts of the Occupied Territories, most of the media stress negative images of Palestinians, school text books have been shown (by Israeli specialists!) to portray Palestinians very negatively, so cumulatively with the tendency of most media only to mention Palestinians in the context of reported attacks by them ... Well - it is official policy to portray Palestinians in Palestine (OPT/Gaza) negatively & fear is the inevitable (intended?) result.

Fortunately, far from all Israelis hate Palestinians! There are those who go out of their way (despite warnings) to meet Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, and over & over again, we hear such Israelis witnessing to the hospitality, the willingness to interact with those Israelis who come in friendship (i.e. NOT with gun in one hand and Bible in the other, & no hand free to reach out in friendship!) and with open minds. And many such Israeli Jews join movements in defence of Palestinian rights.

But such attitudes are not appreciated by those who support current Zionist policies, who call Palestine's West Bank "JJudea and Samaria" and consider it to be rightfully part of Israel. Of course - after all, when you support expropriation, land grabbing, oppression & a leaning towards ethnic cleansing, you certainly aren't going to allow yourself to LIKE those who you are oppressing, you're going to find every reason possible to distrust them & consider them less than full human beings like yourself!! Hate & fear are the blinkers that allow any bad treatment of the Palestinians to be "justified"!
 

Walter F (128)
Friday September 30, 2016, 4:44 am
To answer that question Read the history of crimes committed by Palestinian Arabs against Jewish settlers long before the occupation, even long before the Romala massacre of 1929 and continueig to this day.It is easy to hate such a vicious violent race of prople
 

fly bird (26)
Friday September 30, 2016, 6:06 am
To answer that question, ask yourselves, why over hundreds of years, a group of people, moving here and there, seeking greener pastures or leaving chaos, while social conditioning and/or practices continue to be used to reinforce patterns of separatism, exceptionalism and ostracization, originating long before the existence of the state of Israel, continue to cause hostilities, conflict and fear mongering, in order to dispossess, divide and conquer, using any means necessary.

The state of Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity, crimes against innocent Palestinian men, women and children, systematically violated their human rights for over seven decades, usurping and annexing Palestinian land and territories, since the Nakba - The plan, was, from the outset, to do so.

This is documented, by Israeli leaders and others.

 

fly bird (26)
Friday September 30, 2016, 6:17 am
Israel’s Jews trapped in their own narrative.

13th December 2014

In recent months nothing has made me more angry than an article written and posted on 11 December by Alon Ben-Meir with a headline that described the occupied and oppressed Palestinians as being “Trapped in their public narrative”. It included this statement. “The Palestinians haven’t learned that they cannot have it both ways: demand a state of their own and threaten Israel’s very existence.”

My immediate response was this.

The only threat to Israel’s very existence is its on-going colonisation of the occupied West Bank (ethnic cleansing slowly and by stealth) and the sickening Zionist self-righteousness that justifies it.

The anger provoked in me by Ben-Meir’s article was accompanied by surprise at what he wrote because this Baghdad-born Jewish gentleman, currently a professor of international relations and Middle East studies at the Centre for Global Affairs at New York University, is internationally respected and not without influence in the corridors of power. He is a passionate supporter of the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative and an outspoken critic of Israel’s leaders for ignoring it. (His post before the one I am debunking here was headlined “How Netanyahu committed political suicide”, and the following was its opening sentence. “Prime Minister Netanyahu’s insistence on passing a bill that will define Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is as disgusting as his denial that Israel is an occupying power.”)

The main purpose of “Trapped in their public narrative” was to convey this message.


Not withstanding the growing support of the international community, the Palestinians will be mistaken to assume that the international community will solve their conflict with Israel… Neither the Europeans nor the US who enjoy certain leverage with Israel will be able to force the hand of any hardcore right wing Israeli leader… Only the Palestinians themselves can change the Israeli public perception.

The flesh Ben-Meir put on those bones included the following.


The Palestinians’ constant acrimonious public narrative against Israel has and continues to damage their credibility in the eyes of many Israelis…They are now increasingly focused on evoking international sympathy for their cause, but have failed time and again to appeal to the Israeli public, which matters the most to realise their stated objective of a Palestinian state.

The Palestinians appear to be trapped in their rancorous public narrative against Israel, even during the peace negotiations. Coupled with widespread anti-Israeli teaching in schools, regular media attacks and indoctrination in many public and private institutions, this is what Israelis see, hear, fear and believe.

The Palestinians fail to understand that they have nurtured persuasive anti-Israeli sentiment among the Palestinians and strong anti-Palestinian feeling among the Israelis, which is to the detriment of peace.

It is time for the Palestinians to re-examine the shifting political landscape in Israel and change course now, however incongruous that may be, because it is indispensable to their overall objective.

The Palestinians need to recognise that there is a psychological dimension to their conflict with Israel, traced back through decades of mutual hatred and mistrust. The frequent verbal attacks and the characterisation of Israel as a racist and apartheid state only reinforce the Israelis’ resentment and distrust of the Palestinians.

The PA [Palestinian Authority] seems to ignore the fact that their constant anti-Israeli public sentiments play into the hands of the powerful right constituency while weakening the hands of the centre and left-of-centre, which represent the majority of Israelis.

The Israeli political parties from the centre and left want to hear a language of reconciliation…The Palestinians cannot expect the Israelis to dismiss their public onslaught as empty rhetoric… Only the Palestinians themselves can change the Israeli public perception – not by mere political slogans but by demonstrating that they can be trusted and are a worthy negotiating partner.

The Palestinians must separate (draw a distinction) between the Israeli government and people. Every single Palestinian leader must carefully think about how his or her public utterances affect the Israeli electorate, especially during national elections. There is a steady shift to the right and maligning Israel during the campaign will only further strengthen the right and weaken the centre and the left.

I am not naive to suggest that by merely changing their public narrative positively the Palestinians will instantly and dramatically alter the political map in Israel in favour of the left and centre. But if the Palestinians want to realise statehood, they must change their rancorous narrative sooner rather than later, and the Israeli elections offer a unique opportunity to begin this shift.

I agree with Ben-Meir to the extent that between now and Israel’s election in March it would be a good idea for the Palestinians to remind Israel’s Jews, constantly and explicitly, that the ground on their side for peace on terms which a sane government of Israel would have accepted with relief was prepared 35 years ago by Yasser Arafat.

But also to be said is that the idea (implicit in Ben-Meir’s article) that only the occupied and oppressed Palestinians can bring Israel’s Jews to their senses and get them to understand the extent to which they have been brainwashed by their leaders is ridiculous.

In my view the most awesome flaw in Ben-Meir’s logic can be summarised as follows.

It assumes by obvious implication that Israel’s Jews are the victims in the story of Palestine that became Israel when, actually, and as the whole world is beginning to understand, they are the oppressors.

From that it follows, it seems to me, that it’s Israel’s Jews not the Palestinians who have got to make the first major move if there is ever to be peace based on justice for the Palestinians and security for all. And what does that first major move have to be?

An acknowledgment that a terrible wrong was done to the Palestinians by Zionism in the name of all Jews and that this wrong must be righted.

http://www.redressonline.com/2014/12/israels-jews-trapped-in-their-own-narrative/
 

fly bird (26)
Friday September 30, 2016, 6:41 am
The Plight of the Palestinians: A Long History of Destruction. By Dr. William A. Cook.

A collection of voices from around the world that establishes in both theoretical and graphic terms the slow, methodical genocide taking place in Palestine beginning in the 1940s. Voices decrying in startling, vivid, and forceful language the calculated atrocities taking place.

Dr. William A. Cook is Professor of English at the University of La Verne, USA.


Disappearing Palestine: Israel’s Experiments in Human Despair. By Jonathon Cook.

In Disappearing Palestine, Jonathan examines the enduring themes of Zionist colonisation of Palestine, arguing that Israel has developed and refined policies to disperse, imprison and impoverish the Palestinian people in a relentless effort to destroy them as a nation. The West Bank and Gaza have been transformed into laboratories for testing the infrastructure of confinement, creating a lucrative ‘defence’ industry by pioneering technologies for crowd control, surveillance, collective punishment and urban warfare. The goal of these ever more sophisticated systems of curfews, checkpoints, walls, permits and land grabs is the disappearance of Palestine.

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/books/disappearing-palestine/

"No one is a keener observer of Zionism’s true goals, from its bald usurpation of land and resources to its bad faith about seeking real peace. The book provides an unusual depth of evidence and sharp analysis, and a devastating indictment of Zionism. "

Kathleen Christison, former CIA analyst and author of Perceptions of Palestine (1999)

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday September 30, 2016, 7:35 am
So, let me guess, then, because of a historical violence, MODERN DAY Palestinians are to be damned eternally.

By that logic, given humankind's violence towards each other and animals in particular, the entire human race is to be damned as well.

Sorry, your logic for hating Palestinians doesn't add up.

Also, when hatred is ingrained, it doesn't say much for your own personal moral, ethical, or humane compass.

Grow up.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday September 30, 2016, 8:01 am
The fact of the matter is, if the Palestinians had not vowed to exterminate all Jews, there would have been a united Palestine.

If the Arabs had not launched the 1948 war against Israel - and lost - there would still be an independent Palestine, alongside the state of Israel. {Had they won, we would have had a Jewish genocide to go with the Armenian genocide and the Assyrian genocide, but nobody cares to mention that]

If the Jordanians had not launched an unprovoked attack on Israel in 1967 and lost, the West Bank would still be part of Jordan today {Jordan illegally invaded and annexed the West Bank from the Palestinians as I keep pointing out.]

The lesson here is obvious.

It takes two to make a peace. Israel made peace with Egypt, (they relinquished a huge area of land in the process) despite fighting several wars with each other. It can be done. Where there is a sincere will ...
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday September 30, 2016, 1:41 pm
SOME (few) Palestinians may have called for "driving the Jews into the sea" - quite a number of years ago ...

Just as a sizeable rally of Israeli Jews was calling "KILL THEM ALL" last April in Tel Aviv.

But one group is condemned roundly - and for all time -for "anti-Semitism", although those words date back many years
While the more recent calls for genocide (endorsing extra-judiciary killing - see, for example, Erekat: Israeli Religious Figure Urging Genocide of Palestinians;
Israeli Calls For Palestinian Genocide Go Ignored By Mainstream Press, Social Media) & echoed on numerous videos filmed on cell phones over the last year, are considered quite acceptable, to be blamed on the very people they wish to wipe out, namely the Palestinians.

Walter & John demonstrate that (far from majority) pro-Zionist group that DO hate & seek to justify such hatred - BUT
THEY DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL ISRAELI JEWS, NOR FOR ALL JEWS!

Twist truth, partial truths - but not today's reality. It has been decades since all but a small number of small groups of Palestinians deny the existence of the State of Israel - a vast majority accept Israel - within the 1967 borders. It is Israelis (government, right-wingers, pro-Zionists) who reject these borders thus rejecting the Palestinians' right to a viable independent state - they don't even show the Green Line on their maps (because that would be to admit the illegal expansion into Palestinian Territory - illegal under the Geneva Conventions.

BUT - there are also growing numbers of Israeli Jews with integrity and with the courage to speak up in recognition that their Government & IDF (& settlers) are abusing Palestinians human rights.
 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday September 30, 2016, 3:48 pm

Great comments, Evelyn, Jess and Darren - ***********************************

It's futile to put the warped history - which is presented yet again - straight. I think that nobody really believes this hasbara anymore, especially as Israeli leading figures of those days have set the records straight long time ago.

As for the peace efforts - we may remember that it was the Palestinians who initiated and made all efforts to reach the Oslo Agreement. One of the many initiatives from the Palestinian/Arab side ... none from the Israeli side except for the Bantustan offer of Ehud Barak.

In this context these two articles by Uri Avnery might also be interesting. Uri Avnery too being a "Jewish Israeli time witness" who fought (and abandoned the fighting) at the time of establishing Israel. Today he is firmly in the peace camp and does everything possible to keep people informed about the true narrative.

Abu-Mazen's Balance Sheet

The Saga of Sisyphus or “Who is Shimon Peres?”

 

fly bird (26)
Friday September 30, 2016, 3:57 pm
THANKS EVELYN!!

Sanity, perspective and some balance, must be part of the understanding of the historical facts and events that led to today' situation, past and current events, and the need for the dignity and human rights of Palestinians to be recognized, equally.

No, if's or but's.

Darren, is right.

Looking to shift blame and justify Israel's illegal occupation, siege of Gaza and crimes against humanity are mere excuses, to shift responsibility, divert peace and justice, and evade accountability - as Israel, continues to do, while building illegal settlements on Palestinian lands, decade after decade, year after year, denying, contaminating, and appropriating, illegally, Palestinian natural resources, as basic, as water ... a human right.

 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday September 30, 2016, 3:59 pm

Incidentally, Uri Avnery mentions Matti Peled, the famous IDF general.

His son, Miko Peled, is an outspoken advocate for peace too. It's worth to watch and listen to what he has to say in numerous speeches over the past years. His book's title is "The General's Son" and can be purchased in bookstores or via Amazon.

The one linked above has the following info below the video:

"Miko Peled is from a famous and influential Israeli Zionist family and was born in Jerusalem. Miko's father was a famous general in the Israeli army. Miko too has served his time there. When his niece was killed in a Palestinian suicide bomb attack, his family surprisingly placed the blame squarely on the state of Israel. They believed it was the torture, violence and forced eviction from their homes that was driving Palestinians to commit suicide to fight back.

In this honest, ground breaking talk Peled reveals the truth about the terror state of Israel. His talk is based on his father's insider knowledge on the Israeli war of terror, coupled with his own research. Many Jews and Israel supporters will be deeply shaken by this expose. Some facts from his talk are that the returning Jews are not the original expelled Jews, nor their descendants. He also reveals that until 1947 when Israel launched their illegal terrorist attacks on the people of Palestine, there was no conflict.

Miko Peled is one of many modern day Jews who are standing up to the Zionist state of Israel. This talk is a must watch for everybody, to clear their minds of the lies spread and supported by the Zionist owned mainstream media."
 

Eleonora O (37)
Friday September 30, 2016, 4:06 pm

In the context of terrorism it might also be noteworthy that Britain has opened its archives as of September 28, 2016 and declassified information pertaining to the Jewish terrorism pre 1948 in Palestine.

UK opens secret files about 'Jewish terrorists' in 1940s

This is the capture under the picture:
"This a declassified document released by the British Security Service made available Wednesday Sept. 28, 2016. UK opened secret files about ‘Jewish terrorists’ in 1940s. The newly declassified British security services files document repeated attacks by ‘Jewish terrorists’ trying to drive British forces out of Palestine in the drive toward establishing a Jewish state. The files show how British agents tried to contain the threat of militant activities and keep the groups from launching attacks in Europe and Britain.(The National Archive via AP)"

"September 28, 2016
The source didn't know the details of the plan, but warned that Gen. Evelyn Barker would be attacked on the brief journey between his home in Jerusalem and his office at British headquarters. The assailants were militant Jews from the Stern Gang, determined to drive the British from the land in their bid for Jewish sovereignty.

Before dawn broke on Nov. 14, 1946, according to secret documents declassified Wednesday by the National Archives, Barker's security team was notified of the imminent threat. He changed his route, other special precautions were put in place, and he arrived without incident.

Barker was particularly controversial because of his incendiary comments after militants bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel, used by the British as a political and military base, in July 1946, when Britain was still the administrative power in Palestine under an arrangement worked out in 1920, but was increasingly unable to control events as Jews and Arabs sought control.

The King David Hotel blast killed more than 90 people and infuriated Barker, whose offices were in the hotel. He reacted by banning British troops from having any social or business dealings with Jews, saying that they would be punished "in a way the race dislikes as much as any, by striking at their pockets and showing our contempt for them."

The plot against Barker is only one of hundreds of plans described in the newly public files that detail how British officials were tormented by the militants. The official British attitude toward the Jewish underground is summed up on the file's title page: "Jewish Terrorist Activities in the Middle East."

British influence was waning and the militants sensed a lack of resolve that could be exploited, said Saul Zadka, author of "Blood in Zion: How the Jewish Guerrillas drove the British Out of Palestine."

"They realized getting rid of the British was the key to establishing Jewish sovereignty in Palestine," he said. "The British didn't have an end game, they didn't know what to do, and the insurgents' operations affected the morale of the armed forces very badly. The British papers were saying, 'If you can't control Palestine, just get out.' And it was very expensive to keep 100,000 soldiers there. So overall, holding onto Palestine was not worth it. The cost was too high."

It is clear from the files that the British were rattled by the constant threat of attack and by fears the violence would spread from the Middle East to Europe and, particularly, to Britain itself. A July 20, 1946, letter from Lt. Col. Maurice Oldfield to military headquarters warns that two people on the "Jewish Terrorist List" seemed to have infiltrated Paris via an Air France flight.

"This indicates a weakness in our controls," he said, raising concerns that many more people supposedly being watched "may already, unbeknown to us, be scattered throughout Europe." There is a specific warning from British intelligence to Belgian authorities about five individuals planning a "mission." There are also exchanges between British intelligence and the FBI about the activities of "Jewish commandos" in New York City.

The operational challenge facing British security officials in 1946 was in some ways similar to the ones faced today as Europe's intelligence agencies try to keep Islamic extremists from entering Europe to launch attacks against civilians.

The files contain an official "top secret" request for "special attention security check of all Jews travelling to the U.K." because of the security threat posed by the Stern Gang. The files also reveal how closely British secret services tracked relations between militant groups like the Stern Gang and Irgun amid fears the rival groups would start to cooperate on joint attacks.

A secret note written on April 14, 1947, warns that a reliable source had told British agents about an agreement between the Stern Gang and the Irgun group to coordinate policy and plans. "The main point is that terrorist activities are not to be confined only to Palestine — but will take place also in the U.K., France and Italy," the note says, adding that "certain Jewish terrorists" have already arrived in the port city of Alexandria, Egypt, and have purchased a 200-ton ship to be used to transport weapons.

The plots described were many and varied, including a failed plan by militants to blow up the British destroyer Chevron off the coast of Haifa. The files indicate that plotters left a bag of primed explosives and detonators on board and were later arrested on land with concealed explosives.

The files also detail successful kidnappings carried out by the gangs. The sporadic but deadly attacks spawned extensive British discussions about whether Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin could travel safely to Cairo without undue risk of assassination.

Many attacks were relatively minor, involving small arms fire, grenades, improvised explosives and land mines, but the campaign clearly made it hard for the British to conduct normal business without adding layers of protection. Railways, bridges, government facilities and officers clubs were all targeted.
The state of Israel was proclaimed in 1948; some of the militants went on to become influential figures, including future Israeli prime ministers Menachem Begin, who would sign the landmark Camp David peace accords in 1978, and Yitzhak Shamir."
 

Walter F (128)
Friday September 30, 2016, 9:13 pm
Darren you resort to personal insults that's not very British old chap It doesn't become you Perhaps you shouldn't judge others by yourself Please don't don't make personal remarks about me or send me any stars or comments.. They will be ignored Shana Tovah to all commentators on this post
 

Eleonora O (37)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 12:00 am
Thank you for your good wishes, Walter, and Shana Tovah to you too - especially from our Jewish family members ... but from me too ;-)!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 12:28 am
Walter, you are on a form of social media, and engage with others. If you don't wish your communications (that criticize AND insult others) to BE criticized themselves, then stop posting.

The number of people on social media and forums like this, that believe they have a God Given Right to criticize and insult others, YET, throw a tantrum and hissy fit, when THEY are challenged is amusing and staggering.

Grow up.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 6:47 am
The Jews were there thousands of years before the Christians turned up and even longer than that before the Muslims turned up. They've lived there continuously for thousands of years, suffering at the hands of invaders and occupiers. Now they have their own independent homeland and rightly so.

As I mentioned above, the Palestinians/Arabs are the architects of their own misfortune. But there will have to be an independent Palestine too, when political moderacy has taken root to make it possible.

Whether that will finally bring peace, or just a pause - who knows?



 

Eleonora O (37)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 11:34 am

Darren and Ros - very much to the point comments. One GS is not enough: *****************************
 

fly bird (26)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 6:48 pm
Thank you for the link, Ros.
 

Walter F (128)
Saturday October 1, 2016, 6:51 pm
D.W you rude arrogant pedantic LITTLE MAN you had to have the last word and and insult .It's easy for a little man like you to be rude and brave when you can hide behind a computer.You're not even worthy of my contempt.Your need to grow up is much greater than mine Thanks for the star today ,there won't be any more now I've blocked contact with you.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday October 2, 2016, 9:04 am
Jews have been resident in the Holy Land continuously for thousands of years. People here make it sound like they just turned up on a banana boat and took over!
Jews were there in Roman times and long, long before.
Jews helped defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.
Jews had an established community in Medina for over 600 years before Muhammed turned up and enslaved and massacred them. [Shouldn't our not a bit anti-Semitic friends here be clamouring for Medina to be returned to the Jews?]
Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times in Jewish scripture, but not at all in the Koran.
The Jews have a valid historical, religious and cultural claim to be there.

As for the Jewish immigrants. Yes, they were fleeing for their lives, escaping the rabid anti-Semitism of Tsarist Russia, the Russian Civil War, Nazi Germany and that stoked up by the Nazis in Eastern Europe - not that it needed much stoking.
But both the Ottomans and the British kept a land register. Arab landowners happily sold large areas of land, most of it barren, unoccupied land in the coastal regions, at extortionate rates [10 times the going rate for prime farm land in the USA!] to the incoming Jews knowing full well that they would be establishing homes and communities there.
Having legally sold them the land, deed and title, they then objected to the Jews establishing homes and communities and wanted to commit genocide against them!

Then launching wars against them - and losing!

Like I said, architects of their own misfortune.

I look forward to the day when Palestinian politics is not driven by bigotry, intolerance and aggression. And everyone who cares about the Palestinians should do also, Because then there can be peace.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday October 2, 2016, 1:53 pm
Walter, you throw out insults:

Thursday September 29, 2016, 11:01 pm

John thanks for your comments and your attempt to refute the the biased vitiated comments of the unofficial members o the American Anti Israel society ,They're so blinded by their hatred of Israel and its leaders they will believe anything detrimental and repeat it over and over in the hope it will be accepted.I seldom comment on their posts now ,they are beneath my contempt I didn't let this one pass by.without giving one word of support for you. Keep trying mate but with this hate filled mob I fear you are wasting your time

But, apparently, are so ingrained in your own fixed set attitude and vanity, that being challenged causes you to react petulantly and block people.

This is one reason why international politics fails continually.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 3, 2016, 8:31 am
The British kept a land registry, as did the Ottomans. Nobody could just walk in and grab land. The Grand Mufti himself, who loathed Jews with a vengeance, conceded in his testimony to the Peel Commission that the Jews hadn't stolen any land, they'd bought it Fair and square. But he still wanted to kill them.

One must be pragmatic. The whole world could play musical chairs under the same criteria our friends here want to impose on Israel. Pakistan, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, all prime candidates, plus countless others.
It's 2016, given all the problems facing the planet, we should be coming together and looking forward ....
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 3, 2016, 8:34 am
Darren: Thanks for the positive comments. Appreciated.

Was that second bit aimed at me? I haven't blocked you.
 

fly bird (26)
Monday October 3, 2016, 11:13 am
Good points, Ros, and so true.

No, not every land transfer was a legal one. The Palestinians were forced out, also, in the Nakba - to this day, every day, this continues!
This is the illegal occupation of Palestine: the illegal settlements and evictions of Palestinians from their homes, farms, businesses, etc., the apartheid wall, the crimes against Palestinians and their families, supported by U.S. aid to Israel in the billions must stop.

This is genocide.

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 3, 2016, 12:16 pm
No, John, I haven't blocked you, or anyone.
Walter appears to have blocked me, because he can't take criticism given, when he gives it.
One reason why power-possessors hardly every achieve anything is that it's too easy to close doors.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 3, 2016, 2:39 pm
Jess: Genocide? The Palestinian Territories have one of the fastest growing populations in the world. The population has INCREASED by over 500% since 1950 - and this not counting the millions of Palestinians who live abroad.

No, we need bridges not walls. But why do the Israelis put up these walls? Because of Palestinian stabbers and bombers. Yet another example of them being the architects of their own downfall.

And remember, the Arabs started the 1948 war. They lost - had they won they would have committed genocide against the Jews, and probably the Christians too.
As for the Nabka, did the Israelis drive them out or did the Arabs tell them to leave to clear the battlefield? Probably a bit of both. But again, if they hadn't started the war ...

Choose peace!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 3, 2016, 6:50 pm
I do get tired of the exaggerated story about the Grand Mufit. He did what a number of (recently immigrated) Zionists had done with the Sultan earlier, he tried to get support to protect the Palestinians and ensure that they were left with their country. The Mehtar of Chitral did much the same with the Japanese, against the Brits ... Does this mean that the Jews who tried to win the Sultan's supported hated all Arabs? That the Mehtar hated all British? The Mufti tried a strategy to protect his people - it didn't work.

And Jewish terrorist militia was a trigger that encouraged efforts by neighbouring Arab countries to counter the actions of the Zionists in unilaterally establishing the Israeli State in 1948. They were suffering from the waves of Palestinian victims of Zionist aggression, and attempted to stop it at source: they failed. War seldom starts due only to one side's action - chickens & eggs. The hypothesis that they'd have committed genocide is one based entirely on a false idea of how Jews, Christians & Muslims have coexisted for centuries around the region. It's the Western Christians who had carried out genocidal actions against Jews ... - and there were Palestinian villages in which genocidal action against Christian & Muslim Palestinians was carried out by the Zionist militias in the 1940s. Those villages have vanished from the map - & the area of one is now the site of a psychiatric centre now, apparently - rather ironic.

Why are there stabbers (no bombers, you're out of date)? Because of guns, armed forces, checkpoints, walls - all oppressing and making every day life full of despair & hopelessness.

As Ros said - nobody is denying that there have been Jews in the land between the Med & the Jordan River (and elsewhere in the Middle East) - but not "THE Jews". Jews only constituted 7% of the population at the end of the British Mandate - and many of those had been in Palestine for less than a century; they were, however, pouring in - and that triggered the problems, not just the number, more their attitude towards the indigenous population. 93% were non-Jewish. Within the land "allocated" to Israel, 60% were non-Jewish.

As for land grabbing - that has been extensive since the State of Israel came into existence. "Legally", since Israel passed a law (& amended it a number of times) to authorise land grabbing. That was after the Grand Mufti's statement. The fact that examples to "disprove" pre-date the existence of Israel shows that there is cover-up & denial of of what is now "normal" practice.

But it is a waste of time trying to exchange with those who don't want to think that there are different perspectives, that the Palestinians (& Arabs) are always at fault, the only bad guys all through history - never Israel.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 4:30 am
Ah - but Ros - the laws were shaped (and still are) to make land-grabbing legal!

An Israeli professor, Dr Yifat Holzman-Gazit, wrote a whole book about this:
Land Expropriation in Israel: Law, Culture and Society

"Historically, Israel's Supreme Court has failed to limit the state's powers of expropriation and to protect private property. This book argues that the Court's land expropriation jurisprudence can only be understood against the political, cultural and institutional context in which it was shaped. Security and economic pressures, the precarious status of the Court in the early years, the pervading ethos of collectivism, the cultural symbolism of public land ownership and the perceived strategic and demographic risks posed by the Israeli Arab population - all contributed to the creation of a harsh and arguably undemocratic land expropriation legal philosophy. This philosophy, the book argues, was applied by the Supreme Court to Arabs and Jews alike from the creation of the state in 1948 and until the 1980s. The book concludes with an analysis of the constitutional change of 1992 and its impact on the legal treatment of property rights under Israeli law."

They started quickly, with the 1950 Absentee Law, passed to ensure that refugees couldn't come back to their own homes. (Less than 2 years - imagine if Syria were to try this against Syrian refugees wanting to return now!!), and this law has been through amendments extending the expropriation powers - but never been applied to non-Palestinians.

This article focuses on Jerusalem land-grabbing:
Israel's Absentee Property Law exposes an absence of morality in Jerusalem

Let's have a least a little fact-based honesty!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 4:35 am
Just imagine if Jewish families moving back to their homes in Germany, Poland or France in, say, 1945 or 1950, had been told: "You were an absentee owner, so you not longer have any right to your property even if you have proof it was yours when you fled, and you never sold it"! ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 6:36 am
That's exactly what did happen. Jews not driven out by anti-Semitism before the war, not killed in the Holocaust during the war, returned to their homes after the war and found they had been taken over by others. This was the driving force for post-war Jewish emigration to the Palestinian Protectorate.

The Grand Mufti's anti-Jewish stance, his support for the Holocaust in Europe and his desire to see the same thing happen in the Holy Land are a matter of historical record.

Look at the map of Europe. How it changed. That is what happens in war. You lose a war, you lose territory.
The Russians helped themselves to large chunks of land, Poland was shunted sideways. Germany was considerably reduced. Millions were displaced.
Should not Germany get its land back, or Poland?
Should not Pakistan be returned to Greater India? What's the difference?

Remember the Arabs started the 1948 war, and they lost. The Israelis too some land as war trophy. But the Jordanians and the Egyptians took more land from the Palestinians than the Israelis did! And they were supposed to be their friends and brothers!
The King of Jordan hated the Grand Mufti and didn't want to see an independent Palestine. He cut a secret deal with the Israelis to take over the West Bank in exchange for peace and the recognition of Israel.

The bottom line is bigotry, double-dealing, intolerance and aggression cost the Palestinians dear. They should have chosen the path of peaceful co-existence and then we wouldn't have had any of this.

Choose peace!



 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 10:34 am
Each time, cherry picking to avoid recognising that "peace" couldn't have been further from the minds of the Zionist leaders in the time leading into the independent state of Israel. Their militia sowed fear and defensive responses - not promises of a possible peaceful coexistence.

And rapidly, the State of Israel established laws that legalised their expropriation of refugees' property (back-dated to absence in the first year of the State) - with one purpose in mind: prevent the return of those who fled from the marauding pro-Zionist militias and the fighting in 1948. Show me what laws Germany passed to prevent Jews from reclaiming their proven property! Or France? Or any other country that had displaced persons? Even India declared the forcible occupation of Muslim property as illegal & established a law (India: Act No. 44 of 1954, Displaced Persons (Compensation and Rehabilitation) Act, 1954) to ensure compensation for refugees who fled to Pakistan in that bloody period around independence.

When Israel modified the administrative municipal boundaries for Jerusalem (adding East Jerusalem & effectively transferring it to Israel), the same "absentee" law was applied to land in East Jerusalem when the owner's main residence was one side of the new artificial boundary and property (including family home with family resident there) on the other. Without even moving, Palestinians found themselves become "absentee" owners - and their property expropriated.

Such laws are not applied to Jewish citizens of Israel - even when they are resident in the West Bank. Technically, nothing in the law exempts them, but the law is not applied to them. Furthermore, the 1992 Klugman Report found clear proof of abuse of the law by officials including the "Custodian", leading to properties to the Development Authority, which in turn transferred them via the public housing company Amidar to Jewish settler organizations such as El’ad and Ateret Cohanim.

Expropriation continues - and the law also means that a Palestinian takes the risk of being classified "absentee" & losing his/her property if he/she takes a work contract abroad (again, impinging on economic opportunities of Palestinians).

Meanwhile, those who just don't WANT to know otherwise, keep saying "the Palestinians sold their land" - rather than what would be more accurate if partial: "the Israeli Jewish owners bought the land" - which they may have done ... not from the Palestinian owners, but from one of the organisations receiving from Israeli Authorities the right to allocate & develop this land.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 5:18 pm
Ros - some people just don't want to know the truth - or even verify against archives, laws, alternative Israeli voices. They might have (G*d forbid) to modify their hasbara narrative & recognise the wrongs being done rather than applaud Israeli-style peace-meal expansion - I should write that "piece-meal"!

I recommend finding time to listen to two Israeli Jewss discussing Israel & Israeli politics recently:
Gideon Levy and Ilan Pappé Discuss Israeli Politics
 

fly bird (26)
Tuesday October 4, 2016, 9:59 pm
Thank you for this important information Evelyn and Ros.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 5, 2016, 11:00 am
Jews were already there and had been continuously for thousands of years! Long before either the Christians or the Muslims turned up.

Refugees escaping the violent pogroms and persecution of Tsarist Russia, the Russian Civil War, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany and elsewhere in Europe sought safety and sanctuary in the Holy Land. These are the people who BOUGHT land, SOLD to them legally, deed and title, by the Arab landowners - at 10 times the rate of prime farmland in America, even though it was mostly near worthless scrub land. Even the Grand Mufti's family were involved in the racket.

They sold them land at extortionate prices, knowing full well they would be establishing homes and communities. Yet when they did establish homes and communities the Arabs decided they wanted to kill them and take the land back!

There was a breakdown of relations between Jews and Arabs - threatening genocide against the Jews didn't help! - and a united Palestine became impossible. Hence a two state solution, brought in by the UN.
There was no other option.

The Arabs launched an unprovoked attack on Israel in 1948 and lost.
Palestine disappeared from the map because of their Arab brothers helping themselves to Gaza and the West Bank! It wasn't because of the Israelis.

Israel captured the West Bank from the JORDANIANS after Jordan launched an unprovoked attack on Israel in the 1967 war.
They started a war and lost. If it hadn't of been for that act of treachery and aggression, the Israelis wouldn't even be in the West Bank.

The Arabs may be crying foul, but as I said and I say again, they were the architects of their own downfall.

And as for India/Pakistan. 18 million people displaced from their ancestral homes and a million dead. All to appease Muslim nationalists, who like the Jews wanted their own state but unlike the Jews weren't doing so because they were threatened with genocide!
More Muslims live in India today than did back then, so proof that there was no need for a break up.
But it still happened - and our friends here cannot bring themselves to apply the same criteria they apply to Jews and to Israel.


 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday October 5, 2016, 11:24 am
good points, Nyack. Thanks for your comment.

always good to hear, alternative points of view - people have been around a very long time..

Nothing justifies discrimination, abuse, slavery, oppression.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 5, 2016, 12:25 pm
Well said, Nyack! ***********************************************

As Christianity came into existence OUT of Judaism -
And Islam drawing on both Judaism and Christianity

Just as there were Canaanites when the Hebrews came in to the land, and many intermarried with the Hebrews &/or converted to Judaism. But the Hebrews were not the ONLY people there - there were other indigenous people there before them - an indigenous line that continued over the centuries during which Jews constituted only a small proportion of the people. And they coexisted, irrespective of religion, except when foreign intervention triggered confrontation. The Crusaders, the early European & Russian Zionists ... and then the waves of post-Holocaust Jews. (And among those on the beaches, helping the latter to shore & hiding them from the British, were Palestinians.)

It is true that there were people practising the Jewish religion in the Roman province of Palestine when the first Jews converted to Christianity ...
Judaism is an older religion.
They were also in Rome before the Christians. A sizeable population - it was an important trading centre. Should Rome be Jewish? It's the older religion there. Same logic.


No provocation? Try telling that to the people whose villages saw genocidal action by Zionist Jewish militia. (Even some of the members of those militia were sickened by the massacres they carried out. "Yes, we wiped out most of your village, forced the rest of you to flee - but this wasn't provocation!"
 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday October 5, 2016, 9:44 pm
yes, genocide.

Why Israel’s actions can be called genocide.

Israel lobby groups recently reacted with outrage against the Movement for Black Lives policy platform which refers to US complicity in Israel’s “genocide” and “apartheid” against the Palestinian people.

The president of the liberal Zionist organization J Street condemned the use of the term genocide as “outrageously incorrect and deeply offensive.”

Other pro-Israel Jewish organizations claimed that using the term to describe Israel’s policies is “anti-Semitic” and libelous. By contrast, Jewish Voice for Peace offered an unqualified endorsement of the Movement for Black Lives platform.

Despite the outrage of many pro-Israel groups, there is a long history of human rights scholarship and legal analysis that supports the assertion Israel is committing genocide, according to a statement from the Center for Constitutional Rights.

“Genocide can be applied to the destruction of a people or a national group as a viable group, and that can be both with their being driven from a land or the rendering of their language no longer legal, or just the destruction of their national identity,” Katherine Franke, board chair at CCR, told The Electronic Intifada.

Palestinians have claimed “that what the state of Israel has done is try to deny the very existence or presence of Palestinians in the area that was mandate Palestine before 1947,” she added.

“Nothing new”

Franke, a professor at Columbia University Law School, authored the statement in response to the “enormous, ugly backlash” against the Movement for Black Lives, which represents more than 50 Black organizations.

“As human rights lawyers, [we felt] it might be appropriate to just clarify the record that this was nothing new – that the term genocide had been applied by human rights activists, lawyers, scholars both inside law and inside other disciplines for many, many years,” she said.

Franke dismissed the claims by Israel lobby groups that using such terms to describe Israel’s policies against Palestinians is a form of anti-Jewish bigotry.

“Even the suggestion that the state of Israel may be committing a human rights violation is almost always taken in a somewhat reactionary way as a form of anti-Semitism,” she remarked.

“And of course, a criticism of a state is not the same thing as a criticism of an ethnic or religious group.”

Israel’s systematic targeting of Palestinians since 1947 has been referred to as “incremental genocide” – a term used by historian Ilan Pappe and echoed by Michael Ratner, a human rights lawyer and CCR’s former president, who died earlier this year.

“It’s been going on for a long time, the killings, the incredibly awful conditions of life,” Ratner said during Israel’s assault on Gaza in July 2014, referring to the expulsions of Palestinians from hundreds of towns and villages starting in 1947.

“It’s correct and important to label it for what it is,” he added. Ratner asserted that such crimes can be prosecuted in the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Franke told The Electronic Intifada that Palestinians “are pursuing a number of avenues” through the ICC to raise international legal violations that Israel has committed against them.

For example, the ICC has been conducting preliminary examinations of possible war crimes Israel committed during the summer of 2014 in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

However, charges of genocide have not been brought to the court yet, Franke said.

Listen to the interview with Katherine Franke via the media player above. Photo by Anne Paq/ActiveStills.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/why-israels-actions-can-be-called-genocide
 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday October 5, 2016, 9:49 pm
Video -- Gideon Levy and Ilan Pappé discuss Israeli politics Westminster University

http://www.care2.com/news/member/312733850/4014189
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday October 6, 2016, 12:37 am
Jess -
Yes "genocide" is inevitably an extremely offensive term when used in relation to actions undertaken by people from a population group that itself has been victim of genocidal action. Understandably.

What is less understandable is how come members of such a group can participate in doing to others what was done to them, when they suffered so much. And this is a point made by many Jews who recognise and hate the character of actions & strategies adopted by their co-religionists (NB - ones who have a very different political position, but who use the "religious flag" & conflate their religion & their politics in order to draw a curtain over the reality of what they are endorsing.)

And what other words should one use in order to describe honestly what has been - and to some extent is still being endorse by a segment of pro-Zionist Jews & their supporters? "Ethnic cleansing" is also a term that offends. Should we pussy foot around, saying "Forceful encouragement of non-Jewish Palestinians to move elsewhere in the Arab World"?

This, of course, could describe the messages to Palestinians in Gaza during and after the 2014 offensive. Get out. We'll pay you (about $200 a head) if you leave Gaza for another country. Needless to say, Palestinian leaders discouraged this. The world (Arab and other) doesn't need and can't cope with a further influx of Palestinian refugees.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday October 6, 2016, 9:00 am
Nyack: Yes, but they can't put in a claim for 'ownership' if they can't prove they were there.

In any case, most of the pagans/animists who were there were wiped out by the Muslims, who viewed them as devil worshippers / not 'people of the book' who they tolerated.

You're a Native American, right? Then you should identify with the Jews.
Plus this notion of turning the clock back ... You must know the whites, the blacks and the Hispanics are not going to up and leave (though where would they go????) and give you your country back.
People need to put the grudges down and get on with their lives.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday October 6, 2016, 9:22 am
Evelyn; The usual emotive language.

GENOCIDE: No doubt some people get caught up in the propaganda and actually believe it, but as the Palestinian population in Gaza/West Bank has INCREASED BY OVER 500% since 1950, not counting the millions who live abroad, is that genocide? No.

SIEGE: No doubt some people believe this too, but look at the map ... Gaza has a land border with Egypt, West Bank has a land border with Jordan. There is no siege.
600 lorry loads of provisions cross into Gaza from Israel every day. Only items that could be used to build rockets or terror tunnels are restricted.

Israel are in the West Bank because Jordan launched an unprovoked attack on Israel - and lost

Israel are in the Golan Heights because Syria launched an unprovoked attack on Israel - and lost

The Palestinians lost their UN designated homeland because the Arabs launched an unprovoked attack on Israel - and lost.
And because their Arab friends and neighbours helped themselves to Palestinian land taking over Gaza State and the West Bank.

There was no independent united Palestine because Arab vows to exterminate the Jews made a united state impossible.

You see a pattern to all this?! Maybe all concerned should embrace peace and tolerance and learn to get along.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday October 8, 2016, 7:00 am
We've all part of humankind. . .

So, one analogy is, one arm is arguing with the other arm, or one leg is arguing with the other leg.
Humankind cannot walk properly until there is connection and agreement, as to progress.
Otherwise, the BODY of humankind remains affected, diseased, disabled.
 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday December 28, 2016, 5:36 pm
VIDEO: Full Speech: Kerry’s Speech on Israeli-Palestinian Peace. Dec. 28, 2016

Secretary of State John Kerry spoke about the Obama administration’s vision for a peace accord in the Middle East.

TRANSCRIPT

http://www.care2.com/news/member/124335883/4028536

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000004843773/watch-live-kerrys-speech-on-israeli-palestinian-peace.html
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday December 29, 2016, 2:25 am
Reshared article footage link over social media to spread awareness.
 
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