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Zionists Will Take Away Your Church If You Support BDS--The Zionists' Version of Freedom of Speech/Worship!

World  (tags: Zionists, Zionism, freedom, speech, peaceful, means, worship, religion, illegal, Israeli, occupation, Palestine, Palestinians, BDS, resist, Florida, United, Church, Christ )

- 1106 days ago -
You worship as the Zionists dictate or you don't get to worship at all!


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Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 12:04 am
You worship as the Zionists dictate or you don't get to worship at all!

Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 12:11 am
You don’t even have to support BDS for the Zionists to take away your church. If your uncle happens to support BDS, then the Zionists wouldn’t allow you to have a church to worship God!

You can't even pray for your uncle to see the light!

Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 12:15 am
I bet it wouldn’t be long before the Zionists start bulldozing those churches the same way they’re bulldozing Palestinians’ homes!

If you’re on the Palestinian side, you’re subhuman!

steve F (23)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 4:35 am
a little parnoid, are we?

Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 4:50 am
Paranoid about BDS, Steve, or preventing a church from being built?

Lona Goudswaard (66)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 5:58 am
Wether it's a freedom-of-religion bill which allows people to discriminate against LGBT people based on their particular brand of religion or a nondiscrimination ordinance which allows people of one religion to discriminate those of another, both are a tool in the hands of those who want to force their religious or political views down the throat of others.

In this case the Bal Harbour village council had already forced the Church by the Sea to renounce BDS just to be able to continue as a church, which in itself is despicable, but considering what the governor of New York, Cuomo has done, not exceptional. But that isn't enough for the pro-Israel lobby, and possibly some other religious fractionsthrown in the mix, and they now further abuse the ordinance to get rid of the Church by the Sea altogether. Councilman Gabriel Groisman seems to feel uncomfortable now he sees that some no longer keep up the pretense that this was all about nondiscrimination, but clearly demonstrate they think it gives them the right to exercise their local version of Israel's discrimination.

Freya H (345)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 6:10 am
Funny, I thought Jews, Christians and Muslims all worshipped the same deity, just with different books and names. If we are God's children, this family is dysfunctional in the extreme.

Kathleen M (208)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 6:20 am
Noted. Thx Sam. Repeat after me: BDS is not anti-Semitism.

Carrie B (306)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 6:24 am
Hmm ~ My way or no way. Don't you just love that idea of freedom? Despicable behavior! Thank you, Sam.

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 11:03 am
Freya - so right, but extremists don't recognise this! *******************************************

This is SO typical of the pro-Zionist extremists & those who swallow their narrative.
"If you criticise our politics, you are anti-Semitic - we can crush and oppress you in any and every way we can find" (Vis New York's Governor Cuomo)
"When WE apply boycott, we first destroy*, then threaten to use OUR boycott to prevent rebuilding."

Does George Orwell (Animal Farm) ring any bells here?

One has to be determined to support extremist Zionism to endorse such actions.
BDS calls for boycott, sanctions, divestment in companies that benefit from the Occupation and those who exploit Palestinian land to produce & sell goods under the label Israel. It does NOT close down religious institutions, even when these are strongly implicated in promotion of Israeli policies that refuse human rights of Palestinians.

I am sorry for this Church, whose leaders have tried to come crawling under the leash of an extremist pro-Zionist influence in their community. Their integrity collapsed - and they STILL haven't got a place to worship.
* "Bal Harbour Shops purchased and demolished the church’s original building in late 2015 as part of an estimated $300 million expansion, and the church was looking to set up temporarily in the mall until construction on a new location is complete."

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 11:15 am
By the way - am I the only one to notice the irony of the make of bulldozer in the photo ?????

Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 11:42 am
What's an irony?

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 12:05 pm
Look at the makers' mark on the bulldozer - Doesn't this ring SEVERAL bells?

What are the US companies on the BDS list?

What are often used to flatten not only Palestinian homes but even peace activists?

Sam H (410)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 12:19 pm
OOPS! I forgot the *wink* Thanks Evelyn!

Caterpillar's revenge!

Roger G (148)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 3:06 pm
noted, thanks

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 6:06 pm
Oh brother.... :-(

fly bird (26)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 6:37 pm
can't say it better, than Dandelion!!

it's always about pushing people around, whoever seems 'weak'... how sick is that!

Rose B (141)
Saturday June 11, 2016, 7:24 pm

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday June 12, 2016, 5:35 pm

All is said already ... now just imagine for a moment what the world's reaction would be if the very same would happen in an Islamic country?! And the storm here on Care2 by the "righteous defenders" of whatever ...

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 12, 2016, 7:18 pm
Thanks Sam,

“We are not against the Shops, we are not against the Church by the Sea,” said Ree Kelly, a local resident who plans to protest the agreement at the council’s monthly meeting Tuesday. “We are against the anti-Semitic UCC." (*that just happens to worship a Jewish Rabbi?!)

“Nothing’s been changed, except very few of their total monies were pulled out of their investment funds,” Bal Harbour resident Stanley Tate said. “It doesn't change the fact that there’s a partnership with an anti-Semitic church" (*that worships a Jewish Rabbi?!)

"He and Kelly(*nice Jewish name, Kelly), who is a member of the Stop BDS Movement organization in Bal Harbour, both said they are unhappy the church is still a member of the UCC and has pension funds invested with United Church of Christ.....The UCC pension board, however, says it does not support a BDS boycott of Israel." (*the board was eager to make that clear, said its spokesman, because we don't want angry Jews after us, too!)

“If you’re a dues-paying member of an anti-Semitic organization(*that worships a Jewish Rabbi), you don’t belong in the Bal Harbour Shops!!”

“As a congregation, we are not anti-Semitic at all,” he said, (*and added, "Well, because you know......we do worship a Jewish Rabbi") (*and also added, "As religious leaders, we hold in prayer those Zionists who would say such false statements)

Jacob, wake up. Leave the Church by the Sea alone. This is yet another case of "Never Again!"...gone too far.


Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 2:51 am
Eleonora - so right!
And imagine if communities in the US were to destroy a synagogue building, then refuse to rent provisional space to the Jewish congregation because some members are AIPAC supporters, or the synagogue sends funds to JNF, funds used to support settlement building and land-grabbing?

Good points, Randy!

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:12 am
Totally misleading. This is just veiled 'Jew hate'.

The church was willingly SOLD to a development company for $30 million. Its demolition was the inevitable consequence of that sale and nothing whatsoever to do with any Jew or 'Zionist' as you put it.

They applied to open a temporary church in the middle of a shopping mall. Local residents objected. And given the church's affiliation with a recognised anti-Semitic mother church, why wouldn't they?
If the Nation of Islam applied to open a temporary mosque in the middle of the mall local Christians wouldn't object? If a white supremacist group applied to open a drop-in centre in the middle of the mall local African Americans wouldn't object?

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:14 am
Is there not enough hate in the world as it is, without even Care2 - which is supposed to be about creating a better world - being used as a vehicle to promote even more?????

Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:33 am
Then why DO you?

Your entire argument depends on the accuracy of the description "anti-Semitic" for the UCC.
UCC has adopted divestment from companies PROFITING from Occupation - not from Israeli companies or companies investing in Israel that are not based in (or producing in) the West Bank illegal settlements.

The church WAS allocated space for renting during the construction of their new church - then the pro-Zionists objected - so your attempt to use an African-American parallel was totally off base. Coloured by a knee-jerk "Israel is perfect, political pro-Zionists represent ALL Jews, and any criticism is anti-Semitic" mindset. And of course, you are blind to the intolerance & political interests driving that attitude.

In the US, Jewish Voice for Peace is a major actor in the BDS movement - I suppose that the growing number of Jews joining JVP are all "anti-Semitic" (including the Rabbis leading them)?

Sam H (410)
Monday June 13, 2016, 4:01 am
Why does that man hate a church that sides with the oppressed this much? Then he has the gall to fault Care2 for all the good it does!!!

What’s next on your agenda, John? Wanna bring your Caterpillar over to bulldoze Care2 too?

Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 5:24 am
Since those believing hasbara narrative have labelled a number of pro-non-Zionist Jews & pro-Palestinian human rights but anti- political Zionist politics as "anti-Semitic", ... according to their logic, no doubt Care2 deserves it, Sam - (mind you - I don't know how they align this with "freedom of speech")

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 6:01 am
BDS is inflaming anti-Semitism all over the globe, they're obstacles to peace (even the Palestinian Authority says so and threw them out) and their bottom line is the destruction of the state of Israel. No wonder local Jewish people and those opposed to the race hatred message objected to their presence in the middle of a shopping mall.

And why the image of a bulldozer knocking own the church? It's only there to inflame and to mislead people. The church people knowingly and willingly sold their own church for a huge amount of money to a building developer. THAT is why the church was knocked down. It was nothing to do with any Jewish person.

And spare us the lectures - you think you can feed in hate one end and get peace and love out the other? You can't.

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 6:46 am
And if you read the article, the Council let them stay anyway! So no-one was stopped from doing anything.

Angelika R (143)
Monday June 13, 2016, 9:00 am
Where's the united outcry? If that zionist can shout and demand " I want them out", - so can I/we! :
I want them out! The zionist/s out of that FL community and out of here as well!

Angelika R (143)
Monday June 13, 2016, 9:02 am
Oh and btw-my request includes DWS!

Farah H (154)
Monday June 13, 2016, 9:48 am
noted, thank you for sharing

Sam H (410)
Monday June 13, 2016, 9:50 am
Now the Miami Herald and its reporters and photographers, according to this creature, are anti-Semitic because they used the picture of the caterpillar that’s bulldozed the church!

If those Zionists were not that evil, you’d feel sorry for them if they really believe what they’re saying!

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 10:38 am
Personal abuse - reported

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 10:48 am
Sam: YOU are the one who posted a picture of the church being bulldozed, trying to stir up hatred against Jews - AGAIN.

How is this news??????

The church people sold their own church and land for $30 million to a developer. The developer demolished the church, as was always going to happen.
How is that news? What has it to do with Jews????

After that, some people - do you have any idea what race or religion they are? I suspect not - objected to a church, affiliated to a mother church with a record of supporting anti-Semitism. opening up in the middle of a shopping mall. Their objections were overruled. Nothing happened. Nobody was stopped from doing anything. Again, how is that news????

Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 12:07 pm
Those who go out of their way to conflate a political movement (Zionism), a religious community (those who - or whose family - practice Judaism), an ethnic cultural group (Jews - but bearing in mind that not all Jews can trace their family back to the Hebrew people), and a nationality (Israeli) usually do so in order to paste a racist label on those who criticise one or more of these groups.

Meanwhile, they are so busy attacking discussions that are focussed on a political movement & its hardliner abuse of human rights that they are blind to the danger of genuinely anti-Semitic activity - indeed they provide a setting in which REALLY Anti Semitic speech can find openings, and they also raise irritation & anger that could be pushed into the arms of the REAL anti-Semites.

Learn to differentiate - because REAL anti-Semitism needs to be countered effectively. It is as dangerous as any other extremist movement - Islamophobia, Extremist Zionism ... And it's out there, but the beam in your eye prevents you from recognising the difference, which is taking you into the team of the extremist Zionists.

Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 12:15 pm
Sam, Sam -
You can't win! If you choose your own illustration, the pro-Zionists call you a liar, but if you use the picture from the story, you're hate-mongering & anti-Semitic for doing so?

Do you get the impression that some people don't even go & look at the article carefully?

Sam H (410)
Monday June 13, 2016, 12:54 pm
I’m starting to think that when despicable people throw the term around so unscrupulously, they’re running the risk of turning it into a badge of honor.

This really saddens me, for when the time comes to use the term where it applies, it will be totally void of any meaning!

Knud T (53)
Monday June 13, 2016, 12:54 pm
Fight against the extreme zionism and boycot Israel.

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday June 13, 2016, 12:59 pm
Noted. Thanks, Sam.
Well, apparently BDS is working so well that there is now a huge movement to completely destroy every single bit of it in every aspect of America. This is only the latest article I've read where anti-BDS supporters are trying to rid another place of them. This is happening in colleges and universities, too. What other way are people supposed to protest? Rock-throwing by Palestinians who are crushed by Israel's heavy hand are met with guns and missiles. Now, even speaking out against Israel's demented politics and policies is anti-Semitic. Facts are facts. If Israel doesn't like the BDS movement because it's hurting their business bottom line, maybe they should stop building on that land......for starters. It seems money is more important than human lives to the hard-line Israelis.

Birgit W (160)
Monday June 13, 2016, 1:16 pm

Mandi T (367)
Monday June 13, 2016, 1:32 pm
Geesh !

Colleen L (3)
Monday June 13, 2016, 2:54 pm
I agree with many others. This is outrageous. Thanks Sam

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:23 pm
Sam: How is this news???????? And what has it to do with Jews??????????


Janet B (0)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:24 pm

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:25 pm
We saw in Orlando yesterday what can happen when people are drip fed a hate message.
Hate inevitably results in violence.

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:26 pm
Colleen: What is "outrageous"?

Sam H (410)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:31 pm
John, for everyone's benefit, why don't you point out all the posts I made on this thread where I used either the word Jew or Jewish?

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 13, 2016, 3:43 pm
We're not stupid, Sam. Your use of the word Zionist is a thinly veiled reference to Jews and a poor attempt at avoiding being accused of being anti-Semitic.

"Zionists will take away your Church if you support BDS" That's what you said. Accompanied by a picture of a bulldozer bulldozing the church.
No church was taken away. The church people sold their church and land to developers for $30 million
The call for the church not to be given temporary location in the mall (made by Kelly and Tate - Irish/Anglo-Saxon names, not Jewish) was overruled.

Maria Teresa Schollhorn (42)
Monday June 13, 2016, 4:09 pm
Noted. Thanks Sam.

Sam H (410)
Monday June 13, 2016, 4:25 pm
When you say "we," whom are you referring to, John?

Zionism is evil. I lost count of how many times well-meaning people around here tried to educate you and open your eyes to the FACT that Zionism isn't Judaism and Jewish isn't Zionist. As a matter of fact, no one is more anti-Semitic than Zionists. Zionists are simply anti-human. In that capacity they do more harm to humanity than any other hate group.

And if you have an issue with the news story, take it up with the Miami Herald. Tell them you consider their reporting anti-Semitic, especially that picture of the church being bulldozed. Tell them that that image reminds everyone of how Zionists are tearing down Palestinian homes using the same make and model of that bulldozer. Tell them that sympathizing with the Palestinians is anti-Semitic! How dare they?! Tell them, "I, John De Avalon, don't consider your news story fit for print." You may get a more receptive audience over there.

You're profiling again, John! Be careful! That may get you profiled too by people who have the same mindset!

Why don’t you do something conducive to bringing people together? Why don’t you open your mind and champion the BDS movement to end the occupation and let Israelis and Palestinians live in peace?

Why do you feel threatened by peace?

fly bird (26)
Monday June 13, 2016, 4:33 pm
When it comes to land and real estate.. whatever, anything is possible. Names are a red herring - a lot happens behind closed doors. It looks like the writing is on the wall:

"Bal Harbour Councilman Gabriel Groisman said that before the council approved the agreement, he wanted to clarify the church’s involvement with the United Church of Christ, which in June 2015 passed a resolution asking affiliated churches to support the BDS movement, which calls for the divestment of companies that profit from the Israeli occupation of Palestine and boycott of products produced in those territories by Israeli companies. Groisman, in summer 2015, had written an approved nondiscrimination ordinance that said Bal Harbour Village would not enter a contract with a business if the business was engaged in a BDS boycott of Israel."

This speaks for itself; looks like discrimination, to me. Freedoms of speech/expression/affiliation, being restricted.. one way or another.

Intimidation, harassment - it's how control is maintained and intended to, by trying to silence and/or remove this party, or that. Gag orders, threats, etc.

Thanks Sam.

fly bird (26)
Monday June 13, 2016, 5:09 pm
I meant to mention, John de Avalon, please stop your badgering and name calling.

False, personal accusations, slurs and attacks are offensive and clearly have no place here.

Janis K (129)
Monday June 13, 2016, 7:56 pm
Thanks for sharing

Debra G (0)
Monday June 13, 2016, 10:05 pm
Oh, for crying out loud, people. Read the damn article, not Sam H's scurrilous, hate-inciting title, before wringing your hands with faux concern and indignation.

Stan B (123)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 1:44 am
Another heap of garbage from a total ignoramus and the groupies can't wait to dive in.

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:22 am
Debra - one GS is insufficient! ************************************************************

Sam enjoys coming up with provocative titles - that is Sam. Anyone who builds an argument based on the title just demonstrates that they haven't read the article - or that they want an excuse to attack & insult.

Sam - not all Zionists are extremists; some even recognise openly that Zionism is a political movement (mainly of Jews) which has members who are extremist and who abuse human rights. Although I recognise the need to simplify for those who confuse Judaism (the religion of the Jewish people) and Zionism.
And just a reminder - there are also Christian Zionists ... so Zionists (including extremists) are NOT all Jews, either.

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:37 am
Respect to you for a more than fair reply, Evelyn. I hadn't expected that.
Green star.

George Galloway - certainly no friend of Israel - stated "Most Zionists are not Jews" So ....

But either way, it's all just veiled Jew-bashing.

There's more than enough hate in the world as it is.


Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:38 am
I started listing the names of all the good people who tried to educate our combative visitors over the years, but was afraid I was going to miss some. So instead, I referred to our educators as the "well-meaning people." You're certainly in there, Evelyn!

Their attacks and insults are great evidence of what they're made of. I don't remember flagging any of them. We need that as reminder of how fabulous those Zionists are.

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:47 am
I rather think it's you that needs 'educating' Sam.

And for the record, it's your bullying, racial hatred I'm opposing. If you were stirring up hate and prejudice against Hindus, Sikhs or Zoroastrians, instead of Jews, I'd still be crossing swords with you.

Rose B (141)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 3:02 am
At Stan I am not a "groupie"

I do enjoy music though Stan Janis Joplin Bob Dylan Jeff Buckley etc I have had sex with them
I put in a link for stan so he can see what a "groupie" means

Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 3:11 am
You're dripping with insincerity, John!

We'll come to the aid to all those oppressed on the face of earth. It's our human responsibility that's being continuously undermined by Zionism.

Why don't you support BDS until the Israeli occupation is over, and I'll join you to dismantle the BDS movement once that is accomplished.

We had enough of the Zionists' BS telling us BDS hurts the Palestinians! Since when did the Zionists start caring about the Palestinians--before they stole their land and killed their people or afterwards? OOPS! There's no afterwards! They're still doing both!

Stan B (123)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 3:30 am
Rose you are very selective in your posts about human rightsl. If you support the rubbishy Sam posts you are definitely one of his groupies. No ifs or buts.

Stan B (123)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 3:33 am
" zionists will take away your church if you support BDS."
What a load of anti-Semitic claptrap!,

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 4:04 am
John - I said nothing there that I don't say over and over again. It suits you & your narrative to put blame on Palestinians & those who support Palestinians' human rights, so you usually ignore it when I clearly distinguish between "Jews" (which may include practising & non-practising people from Jewish backgrounds & of Judaic religion, and may also include those supporting political Zionism with greater or lesser levels of extremism) and "Zionists" (a political movement, followed & supported mainly by people of Jewish background but also by some Christians). Indeed, you ignored it again earlier in this thread ...
So thanks for a GS - because (for once) it suited you to notice the difference.

BDS is clearly linked to ending the Occupation and the oppression of Palestinian rights - once Israel ends these, BDS will no longer have its raison d'être. That's another thing that the pro-Zionist narrative prefers to ignore, & discourage others from recognising! BDS is a political & economic movement - not a racist one. Very few BDS supporters even apply BDS to products of Israel itself (i.e. within the Green Line, not within the Occupied Territories & the parts of the West Bank (illegally) settled by Israeli settlers.)

Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 4:15 am
Matthew 5:21-22

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.”

“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

But you probably have a different edition than the one I have.

Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 4:16 am
Oh, that wasn't meant for you, Evelyn!

Marija Mohoric (25)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 7:21 am
interesting comments, tks for sharing

fly bird (26)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 9:42 am
and now Stan joins in with his opinions, fair enough, but if, Rose says she is not a 'groupie' ( and neither am I, for that matter), then it would be smarter to stop quibbling over semantics, as an excuse to lay on more slurs and abuse.

Because that is what it is.
IMO, the disingenuous comments are plain to see...
When 'zionists' band together to try and discredit people, who speak their minds and express their values, and try to silence them, reasonably informed people, who are for equal rights for all, will see and call out, what is, plainly, a pattern of harassment and bullying.
If the shoe fits...

" Whosoever diggeth the pit, shall fall in it - fall in it..." - Bob Marley

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 11:04 am
Jess - did you expect better of them???

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 12:51 pm
Evelyn: No, for once, you weren't on the Jew-bashing side.

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 1:00 pm
BDS does nothing but stir up anti-Semitism and put Palestinians out of work and keep them destitute.
Their motivation is hate, and their tactics are bullying, menace and intimidation.
They are obstacles to peace.

One look at the problem can easily see that the solution is the exact opposite to what BDS stand for, investment to create jobs and economic prosperity for the Palestinians. This would lead to the social and political moderacy necessary for peaceful co-existence.
As one of the former SodaStream workers pointed out, even when the Gaza Conflict was going on, there was peace and harmony between Jewish and Palestinian workers in the factory. 'We need a thousand SodaStreams' ....

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 1:08 pm
Jess: Read the opening 18 or so posts. Stirring up hate, on an entirely false narrative, a complete pack of lies.

Sam promoting anti-Semitic/race hatred again, and with the usual suspects falling over themselves to put the boot in.


Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 1:15 pm
Let me get this straight, John! BDS stirs up anti-Semitism and the illegal occupation of Palestine doesn’t?

You need to accept the fact that there’s nothing more anti-Semitic than Zionism, John! And that is the source of misery in that part of the world, and probably elsewhere too!

Janet B (0)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 1:55 pm

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:14 pm
Sam: Anti-Semitism has been going on for centuries. The Holocaust, the countless pogroms in Europe, Tsarist Russia and at the hands of the Muslims/Ottomans, the Pale Settlements in WW1 etc. etc. There was no Israel then.
Religious bigotry and political scapegoating, pure and simple.

And the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide ... Well over a million dead. Mass murder, mass torture, mass rape, beheadings, crucifixion, enslavement, robbery ...
No Israel then either.

None of your threads will make one iota of difference on the ground in Israel. What it will do is stir up anti-Semitic sentiment amongst Care2 members gullible enough to fall for the hate rhetoric.


Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:17 pm
You still haven't answered the question, John!

"Let me get this straight, John! BDS stirs up anti-Semitism and the illegal occupation of Palestine doesn’t?"

Sam H (410)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 2:18 pm
Who Said Crime Doesn’t


Rose B (141)
Tuesday June 14, 2016, 4:22 pm
I do like Sam Stan but I am not his groupie nor have I slept with him

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 1:55 am
John - Where has ANYONE here suggested that anti-Semitism does not exist? And by that, I include racism against the Jews (as a population group) long before the term "anti-Semitic" was coined.

Also, John - show one single comment where I have "bashed" Jews as a generic group (which is what anti-Semitism is - anti the generic group of Jews). This is a totally false accusation.

You have still to answer a question I asked elsewhere -
Other than some employment for some Palestinians, how does creating industries in the Israeli settlements help the Palestinian economy? Any profits and any taxes are paid into the Israeli economy, not the Palestinian economy.

Meanwhile, efforts to develop Palestinian industry & businesses in the Occupied Territories are met with IDF bulldozers, (See, for example,
Squandered Aid: Israel's Repetitive Destruction of EU-Funded Projects in Palestine
) usually because the Israeli authorities haven't accorded permission, but also because they find other excuses to destroy olive & fruit orchards, block access to agricultural land, prevent animal husbandry (See, for example,
The Wanted 18 Cows, Economic Resistance, and Israel
) ... Allowing some employment - vulnerable, because visas can be taken away for the slightest reason, including daring to criticise the non-application of Israeli Labour Laws to the working conditions of Palestinians, or failure to reach work regularly due to checkpoint blockages ... - for Palestinians is not sufficient to enable this great economic growth you suggest could happen without BDS! (And yes, Palestinians need visas to go to work in settlements located within the Palestinian side of the Green Line - i.e., within Palestine)

Eliminate the Occupation, and it would be possible to develop Palestinian economy, but the Occupation ensures that economic development is controlled by Israel, & held back. Hence BDS - a non-violent movement with the aim of pressurising Israel to put an end to the Occupation.

Opposing BDS is endorsing the oppression & the prevention of economic development of Palestine.

Rose B (141)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 2:46 am
'muslim terrorism "this is on Stan's page, well Stan I would rather be a groupie anyday

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 3:53 am
Rose - at least groupies are driven by love, not hate! (So one shouldn't really apply it to the groups of unconditional haters ... perhaps "gang" is the word for those who use a hate filter against all who don't sing only praises for the political Zionist politics & strategies?)
But the "brainlessness" associated with "groupies" (so implied by Stan here) is too insulting.

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 5:02 am
Evelyn: The wages go to Palestinian workers and their families, giving them a good life and a good standard of living, and happiness in the present and hope for the future.
Nobody forced them to work at SodaStream. They did it voluntarily and were HAPPY to do so, for the aforementioned reasons. They did not want to be unemployed and destitute, though they are now! And why are they unemployed and destitute now? On the whim on some smug bullying Western luvvies, who live hundreds, even thousands of miles away, in nice homes, enjoying a very comfortable life, who don't know what it is to be hungry or unemployed or destitute.

Even when the Gaza Conflict was going on, there was PEACE and harmony, everyone got on together, happily worked and chatted together. And there's proof enough of what is the answer.
Businesses and factories in Gaza Province, PA West Bank, Israeli West Bank - that's what is needed.
This will bring about the social and political change needed to break the impasse.

I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land, as we say in England. You've numerous times mocked and derided the PA for their corruption. Hamas use their own people as human shields, execute peace activists and political opponents - and their families, Amnesty have cited them for their use of torture (against their own people), they export terrorism - not only into Israel but Egypt as well (why the Egyptians have a total blockade on them), women are second class citizens and gays are in fear of their lives. Not to mention their black marketeering. There's no democracy, no freedom of speech, no one man one vote. It's a Mafia state.
If there was a Palestine state tomorrow , after the blood letting of Arab collaborators , there'd be a civil war between Fatah and Hamas, and Hamas would come out on top, as they did in the Gaza Civil War
You'd then have a macrocosm of what there is now. They'd draw breath and then start on Israel again.

But that's what BDS wants, the destruction of the state of Israel - or 'euthanasia' as Bharghouti so charmingly described it.


John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 5:15 am
Sam: Remind us why the Israelis are in the West Bank? Never mind, I'll do it.

1948: The Arabs launch a genocidal war against the newly-found state of Israel, but against all the odds, manage to lose! The Israelis take some Palestinian land as war trophy. However, Egypt annexes Gaza Province from the Palestinians and Jordan annexes West Bank from the Palestinians. As a result of this Arab betrayal, not because of the Israelis, Palestine disappears from the map.

Jordan holds the West Bank until 1967.

In the Six Day War, despite Israeli pleas for peace and assurances Israel won't attack Jordan, Jordan makes an unprovoked attack on Israel. The Israelis hit back and the Jordanian army is put to flight. Israel captures the West Bank.

Today parts of the West Bank have been handed over to Palestinian control, other parts are under Israeli rule.
Jewish zealots are encroaching on Arab land. Christians are being driven out of Arab land. Acts of terror are causing walls to be erected to separate Israeli and Palestinian communities.

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 7:37 am
A few facts drowned in propaganda - the 1948 war was in reaction to the pro-Zionist acts towards the Palestinians that created a wave of refugees into neighbouring countries. Not a wise action - the Arab states involved were themselves newly independent and far from able to handle a war (let alone coordinate effectively between several states). Furthermore, the new State of Israel had better trained forces (including leaders with experience during WWII), better arms - and was delighted to seize the opportunity to expand the lands it had declared for itself. But hasbara propaganda carefully omits mention of the lead-up context.

Several of Israeli Intelligence leaders are more honest than you - they admit that they provoked wars - careful not to be the visible aggressor - there is even a documentary film that was in the running for international awards on this.

But it is a waste of time trying to discuss - against twisted half truths & avoidance of questions -
Go ahead with believing what you will - it doesn't make it any more true because you manage to hang on to ideas that suit you. It's a free world - I just cannot endorse your tales, only accept your right to spread them (if you really believe them)

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday June 15, 2016, 4:33 pm

There was a two state solution solely because Arab threats to annihilate all Jews made a united Palestine impossible.
Boundaries of the two states were established by the UN Commission, based on population concentrations.

In the 1948 war the Arab army that attacked Israel included established professional forces from Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia. Yemen - and Palestinians, with the Israelis having to fight on multiple fronts. The Israelis only had a civilian army.
Yet still they won.

Cry foul all you like. Egypt annexed Gaza Province from the Palestinians. Jordan annexed West Bank from the Palestinians. (They took far more land than they Israelis did) And that is why Palestine disappeared from the map.


Evelyn B (63)
Thursday June 16, 2016, 9:43 am
Ros, you're right! Take an element of truth, twist it & then interpret to suit the "poor victim" image he wants!! (I suspect he's for Brexit - would fit his style of analysis.
If anyone wants a very simplified but more "neutral" version of history -
The Israel-Palestine Conflict: A Brief, Simple History

Lenore K (0)
Thursday June 16, 2016, 3:40 pm

Jonathan Harper (0)
Friday June 17, 2016, 12:16 am

Lynsey Terry (0)
Friday June 17, 2016, 10:18 am
Complete brainwashing

Dawnie W (250)
Friday June 17, 2016, 10:29 pm
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💕💛ღ❤️Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ💕♥L💜ve, Hugs and Peace go with you all♥💕Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ❤️ღ💛💕

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday June 18, 2016, 10:30 am
Actually Ros, you probably didn't see it, but they have contributed quite a significant proportion in the US, according to a Princeton study!!
It is discussed in Mass Shooting Casualties, By Religion of Perpetrator: Muslim Vs. Non-Muslim (US) Updated 12 June
Global Research has just reposted a 2013 article by Washington's Blog. Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks in America The data are old - up to 2005. Princeton University’s Loon Watch compiled a chart from the FBI’s data
Characteristics of perpetrators:
Latinos - 42%
Extremist Left Wing Groups - 24%
Extremist Jews - 7%
Extremist Muslims - 6%
Communists - 5%
Others - 13%
(For the original Princeton University article All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Aren’t-)

However, I can't think of specific examples that were loudly linked to leftist extremism! Before reading these articles, I would have said the same as you! I suspect that the official narrative stressed personal psychological problems in most cases ... I suspect we were told that extremist Left Wingers, Latinos, Jewish extremists, Communists, the perpetrator was either a psycho/sociopath or with known psychological problems, who belonged also to such groups ....
But for Muslims? Ah! That's different ... (If you happen to have a leaning towards distrust of Muslims anyway - and when Muslim perpetrators are systematically flagged as "terrorist" - well, pretty quickly, you're going to be CONDITIONED to distrust & fear Muslims)

Angelika R (143)
Saturday June 18, 2016, 10:59 am
"But for Muslims? Ah! That's different ... (If you happen to have a leaning towards distrust of Muslims anyway - and when Muslim perpetrators are systematically flagged as "terrorist" - well, pretty quickly, you're going to be CONDITIONED to distrust & fear Muslims)"

That's why Glenn Greenwald ist once again to be lauded and appreciated for immerdiately asking the right question when he asked:
"Why Is the Killer of British MP Jo Cox Not Being Called a “Terrorist”?

Everybody knows the answer!

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday June 18, 2016, 1:42 pm

Correct, Angelika ... and let's expand the question: why is his religious affiliation of no significance either? Just because he is not Muslim?!

Everyone knows the answer to this one too ...

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday June 18, 2016, 3:32 pm
Angelika: "Everybody knows the answer"? British police are still following lines of enquiry and have not released the defendant's statement. So I don't know how you know all the answers?

And what is his religion ? If indeed he has one that is.

The word is he has mental health issues and Neo-Nazi sympathies.

He'll likely end up in a secure mental hospital rather than any prison.

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday June 19, 2016, 3:24 am
Actually, Ros, I think we are in full agreement here!
- that study has a major weakness - the data apparently didn't provide breakdown for "racist" or "white supremacist". Since we know (from discussion at the time) that such motivation definitely often plays a role in mass shootings, I'm left supposing that these are scattered across the categories provided! And I am also very aware that one of the reactions frequently found when "extremist right wing" labels are applied to Neo-Nazis is "Nazi = National SOCIALISM - they are LEFT wing". I suspect that the data label used in the FBI stats is based on this argument - hiding the sins of the white supremacist & Neo Nazi perpetrators under "extremist Left Wing" & "Other" rather than labelling them for what they are.

Your comment on the IDF parallel is spot on!

Interesting how the actively right wingers rush to use a cover-all "mentally sick" as a stand alone explanation - carefully stepping back from recognition of the role that campaigning has intentionally chosen to use the fear tool - and hence contributed to a sick polarisation, generating hate towards the "other" side. (NB - there are Remain politicians who have equally focussed on fear as a weapon - fear of what will be lost by leaving. Neither side is "clean" of this, although many for Remain - like Jo Cox - use reason rather than fear in their narrative. I've found relatively few Brexiters who do the same - but there are a few.)

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday June 19, 2016, 6:31 am
Evelyn: Check your facts.

This fellow, from the facts that have emerged and we can trust as being accurate, had had long term mental health issues.
This fellow with 99.99% surety will end up in a secure mental hospital, probably Broadmoor, rather than a civilian prison.
It is a testament to British Government underfunding of mental health healthcare.

On the broader issue, it also appears he had/has Far-Right leanings. Police apparently found Neo-Nazi literature, from groups hostile to both Muslims/Muslim immigrants and Jews.
THIS is the point. When people promote hate, it infects minds. Ranging from privately held racist thoughts to full-on violence, even murder. For these people to then turn round and say 'Well, it was nothing to do with us' ... It's everything to do with them!
Hate always culminates in violence, sooner or later.

Your stance is a little ironic given this whole thread was designed to stir up hate against Jews. The very type of hate Mr Mair latched on to.

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday June 19, 2016, 7:17 am
Only "ironic" because (as usual) you misread it.

I said "STAND ALONE explanation"

His mental imbalance is only one factor. Given the vitriolic & vile quality of the campaigning in the UK, it is those with psychological problems who are the first to explode under the pressure of the fear-mongering & related hate narrative adopted (by both sides, although it seems far worse among Brexit supporters - from where I stand). The result is a miasma -

But focusing only on his psychological problems is a great way of avoiding admission of how the current political atmosphere is also an important contributory factor. Just as those who choose to stress his "extremist right wing links" are avoiding recognition that on the Remain side also, there are those manipulating people's fears, contributing to a polarisation ... And also covering up the inadequacy of mental health support. According to reports, Mair HAD been coping better, but James O'Brien expresses well how the fear mongering as a political strategy can trigger extreme action.

And back you come to your erroneous argument that this thread was designed to stir up hate. Because you have a bias that BDS (in the context of anything to do with Israel's occupation & illegal settlements) is intended to stir up hate, you refuse to even take time to recognise that it is a NON VIOLENT form of protest & political action against human rights abuses.

I'll bet you never viewed boycott & sanctions of Iraq in the same way. Nor sanctions against South Africa. Nor against Rhodesia before it became Zimbabwe. But as you refuse to recognise flaws in Israeli policies, the occupation, the illegal expansion of Jewish-only settlements across land that does NOT belong to Israel under international law ... you take an inconsistant position when it relates to Israeli politics. And because you won't recognise the difference between religion & politics where Israel is concerned, you shout "anti-semiticism" & claim aggressively that those with whom you disagree are "stirring up hate". Yet again. (Try looking in a mirror? )

John De Avalon (36)
Sunday June 19, 2016, 9:31 am
Evelyn: Try reading your own post before speaking! This thread is wholly about stirring up hate. It has no basis at all in truth or fact, as you yourself pointed out
This is exactly the sort of hate rhetoric that can lead to acts of physical violence.

What has this thread to do with the UK Euro vote??????
There is no evidence to suggest any 'In or Out' vote campaigning is involved in any of this.
The suggestion is Far-Right/Neo-Nazi hate literature had poisoned his mind and led to this attack.

I've repeatedly called for a peaceful two state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
You're on that other threat supporting Hamas, and denying they are 'bad', 'violent' or 'terrorists'.
They're not the Liberal Democrats!
The destruction of Israel is central to their Charter.

Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 20, 2016, 3:29 am
Seeing the discussion here as "stirring up hate" only happens when one refuses to recognise the validity of BDS as a non-violent political & economic strategy for countering mis-information and abuse of human rights.

I asked earlier:
"I'll bet you never viewed boycott & sanctions of Iraq in the same way. Nor sanctions against South Africa. Nor against Rhodesia before it became Zimbabwe. But as you refuse to recognise flaws in Israeli policies, the occupation, the illegal expansion of Jewish-only settlements across land that does NOT belong to Israel under international law ... you take an inconsistant position when it relates to Israeli politics. And because you won't recognise the difference between religion & politics where Israel is concerned, you shout "anti-semiticism" & claim aggressively that those with whom you disagree are "stirring up hate". Yet again. "

As for the relevance of discussion of Jo Cox's murder - you filed that neatly as "mental health issues" before I even mentioned the case. Sadly, you can't pin it on "Muslim", so that question is sidestepped. I followed it up because I believe he was more vulnerable than most to the fear-mongering, hate-provoking miasma of the current environment in the UK, because of his mental health issues. Multi-factors interacting to trigger a tragic event. And narrow slotting of blame on his mental health issues allows one to ignore the use of fear and hate ...

In the context of this thread, consider:
The pro-Zionists in the community fear BDS, so they take steps to block the renting of space to a local church ... because this church is part of a large family of churches that have chosen (in majority) to adopt a BDS strategy to pressurise Israel into working to end the Occupation.

I'd say, that represents stirring fear and hate, right there.

Only by siding with the political entity that is the target of such action and refusing to recognise that BDS is a valid political pressure strategy in the context of the Occupied Territories can one interpret support for BDS as "stirring up hate".

John De Avalon (36)
Monday June 20, 2016, 5:34 am
The core aim of BDS is the destruction of the state of Israel, to be replaced by - after the inevitable Palestinian civil war - your friends Hamas.

The actions of BDS speak for themselves - bullying, harassment, threats, intimidation etc. How long before someone gets killed????
And they are stirring up anti-Semitism all over the world.

Has the penny not dropped yet? Will it never drop? You can't feed hate in one end and get peace and love out the other.

There will never be any solution until there is political moderacy, on both sides.

Sanctions changed nothing in South Africa. Mr Mandela's noble stance, offering the hand of friendship,
made Mr de Klerk recognise that instead of an inevitable bloodbath, there was an opportunity for peaceful co-existence and together they made a leap of faith.


Evelyn B (63)
Monday June 20, 2016, 6:22 am

federico bortoletto (44)
Monday June 20, 2016, 11:45 am
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