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Israel Social TV: BDS From a Feminist Perspective (VIDEO)


World  (tags: israel, Jewish feminists, BDS, non-violent resistance )

Evelyn
- 1181 days ago - facebook.com
"BDS resistance is taken for granted in Israel. Why this nonviolent way of struggle is so hated?" A group of Israeli Jewish feminists discuss BDS (Hebrew with English subtitles). Shared through Jewish Voice for Peace



   

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Comments

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 11:51 am
This article is definitely BS 😄
The only country in the Middle East to give women equal rights is Israel!
The BDS movement harms Palestine (and the women who live under Islam) more than it harms Israel.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 11:57 am
People who comment without following the link DO show themselves up!!!
 

Trish K (29)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 12:35 pm
It's a Facebook page in Hebrew. ?
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 12:41 pm
It is. . . shared, Evelyn.
 

Sheila D (194)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 12:54 pm
Sorry, no Hebrew. Thanx Evelyn.
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 1:14 pm
Evelyn,
I can read English, and did follow the link.

GGmaSheila,
On the Facebook page, you have to slide the videos across to find it. It would have been better if the link went straight to the video. It's subtitles are in English. Still a lot of gibberish in my opinion. But I'm pro-Israeli and definitely anti-feminist.
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 1:19 pm
Also,



אני יכול לקרוא את זה דרך גוגל



 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 1:27 pm
Oh and Evelyn,
Aren't those women culturally appropriating Iris culture by using a boycott?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 2:11 pm
The clip "BDS from a feminist perspective" is entirely subtitled in English, so not understanding the Hebrew is not a problem.

These Israelis have interesting points to make.
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 2:16 pm
Really Evelyn?
Name a single good point they made. apart from not understanding that starving to death is just as bad as being shot.
Also, the sexist overtones were daft. Don't those "so called feminist" know that Islam encourages female suicide bombers? That's so none violent!
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 2:20 pm
I think I will have to keep my eye on you Evelyn, so I can refute this anti-Israeli rubbish you so love to post. The Islamist in Palestine are the misogynists you should be fighting against.
We have a word for people like you in England!
TRAITOR!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 3:41 pm
What is so anti-Israeli about a post concerning a group of Israeli Jewish feminists' opinions?
And the only misogynist - self-proclaimed earlier as anti-feminist - around here is ......
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 3:48 pm
Nice try Evelyn 😄
Anti-Feminist =\= misogyny. That's only in the mind of Female supremacists (AKA Feminists)
A traitor is a traitor 😑
 

Animae C (508)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 4:02 pm
Thanx Evelyn
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 4:49 pm

Thanks Evelyn - always interesting what's coming from our friends at JVP.

On a different note: it seems you do have a new friend - LOL?!

BTW it is definitely not up to you to ask what's anti-Israeli about posting the opinion/discussion of Israeli Jewish feminists!! You're told it is ... so it is true!! Take it and hang your head in shame - LOL!

After all we don't ask him either from which Qur'an he got his wisdom from re encouraging female suicide bombers. He says so ... so it is true!

Stay safe, my friend ... Insha’Allah!

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 4:52 pm

Oh, one more thing, Evelyn - when did you mutate into a female supremacist? I got used to you being an "Egyptian Islamist" whose forefathers did some cruel stuff in South America and where also Nazis at some point in time ... or something like that ... when did you "convert" to female supremacist? You're always good for a surprise ;-) ...

Where can I apply to join this club?
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 5:32 pm
That's a good question Eleanora,
I don't recall quoting the Qu'ran on any theology. I'm sure someone in Iran can help you with this theological point. Please remind us of the religion of Iran, thank you.
Also, maybe before asking the Iranians theology, looking up the word supremacist in English. Then please explain to me how any Western Feminist isn't a Supremacist without contradiction!
PS if you sound like a duck, walk like a duck, look like a duck, then you most likely are a duck. English expression.
 

(0)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 5:40 pm
Just to clarify that Eleanora,
Nor do the Hadiths or the Sunnah of Muhammad, which I've never heard of or read support any Islamic theology that contradicts anything you have to say. Just saying!
 

Rose Becke (141)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 6:17 pm
I like Eleonora's comments
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday April 23, 2016, 11:56 pm

A very good morning to you, John - :-)!! ... or should I say "quack" as this seems to be your mother tongue - LOL?

I simply concluded that your comment "... Islam encourages ..." has its source in the Qur'an as I've learned that this is the only source to refer to in discussing sincerely Islam (acc. to late Sheikh Tantawi, head of Al Azhar), as the Ahadith are corroborated by men (which means there are plenty of mistakes) - this applies naturally only if one believes in this whole concept of a God sitting in the sky somewhere sending 3 books to mankind!

What I wonder though now is ... who do you think encouraged/s the male suicide bombers throughout history - starting with the first one being good ol' Samson who prayed to God (HaShem in th is case) to give him strength and kill as many as possible ... over to the Tamil Tigers (non-Muslims and who invented the "suicide bombers") over to the male Muslims? ... Sure those weren't feminist supremacists ... or what do you think?

PS Israeli Feminist wouldn't be Western ones but rather Middle Eastern Feminists ... at least according to my geographical knowledge which is not tainted by any wanna-be facts.

Quack-quack - LOL - and have a good day!

PPS If you're referring though to Evelyn - I have yet to see proof that she really became a Feminist Supremacist as she still flies under the flag of "Egyptian Islamist" (courtesy of Penny). But then one can argue that an "-ist" is an "-ist" no matter what ... ;-).
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 1:39 am
Eleonora - ************************************ !

Yes, it is fascinating what the trolls draw me as! Don't forget John D who accused my ancestors of killing Native Americans in the NW of the US! That also was news to me!! I'm not sure to what I'm supposed to be a traitor, either - but am not that interested either, as it is only just another example of trollish inventions!
 

Peggy B (43)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 2:00 am
Evelyn, in the UK John W would be called a prat by intellectuals. Ignore him. He's an 'armchair expert' and loves to hear himself talk while no one listens because he has nothing noteworthy to say.
 

(0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 3:05 am
Good morning everyone,
Oh no! Horror of horrors! A bunch of Leftist Loonies think badly of me, and want to censor me.
What am I to do?

Laugh very hard at all of you 😂
 

(0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 4:20 am
Act Locally Think Globally,

If you look through my news articles, you will see I supported ending the Tampon tax. Which like menstruation has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Eleanora,
I am fully aware the Suicide bombers were not started by Muslims and is against Islamic teachings about Jihad. I never claimed otherwise. But I did suggest going and asking Iran's Spiritual leaders.

Peggy,
Says the kettle to the pot!
 

(0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 5:30 am
Evelyn would be a hypocrite to criticise; as she and others here filled up a post I posted about planting trees (in Israel) with pro-Palestine propaganda!
 

(0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 7:45 am
Act Locally,
Here is a link to my tree planting article
http://www.care2.com/news/member/659862369/3904065
 

(0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 7:49 am
It wasn't out of revenge or mental torment. I posted because I find this kind of nonsense nauseous. Also for the benefit of fence sitters.

Here is a link to the petition article I posted about tampon tax
http://www.care2.com/news/member/659862369/3924085
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 9:33 am
If you find it nauseous - are you a masochist?

I do remember that thread - initially I simply said I'd prefer to contribut to planting trees to replace those torn out by the Occupation Forces ...
The discussion then went off in various directions (triggered by you) - BDS, Pamela Geller & Churchill, your being agnostic & Roman Catholic & a lot else. Your "tree planting" rather got lost, too bad as there was a valid start - but you triggered the deviations, others followed your pointers ....

So you decided to deviate things here?

You can't be totally anti-feminist if you supported that petition, since the driving point there was inequity, inequality .... Maybe you have a narrow understanding of "feminism"? You see it as a threat to masculinity? That's only an extremist part of feminist movements. (I have Pakistani male friends who have started an NGO for male support of "feminism" - & this kind of petition action would be right in line with what they are working for!)
 

Lona Goudswaard (66)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 9:55 am
Could we all get back to the subject of this video please and just ignore the troll.

Thanks for posting this interesting video, Evelyn. First of all because it show us that there are people who look differently at BDS than the politicians do. Where men want to use extreme violence to stop this non-violent boycott, like for example Israel Katz who calls out for Israel to conduct targeted killings of the BDS leadership, (some) Israeli women see it for what it is: a non-violent means of obtaining freedom from oppression.

Apparently it is something feminists in Israel are looking for too - the video's commentator didn't point out that the anti-BSD conference "brought together mostly men, of course" for nothing - and it moves them towards a kind of solidarity with the Palestinian BDS as they see parallels between their own struggle and that of the Palestinians and look for non-violent means to end it. At the same time it seemed to give the women a better recognition and understanding of what Israeli society is doing to different groups. This is a hopeful step on the way to peace.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 10:29 am
Thanks, Lona - you are very right!
And your comment merits more than one GS! ************************************

You've picked out exactly what struck me about the discussion - the seeking of non-violent means of tackling problems of claiming justice & equality.

I was part of a team assessing gender equality in several countries of the Middle East about 18 months ago, and surprisingly, there are many common barriers to women's achieving their legal (constitutional) rights in both Israel & Palestine ... & Lebanon. One critical factor is the extent to which personal rights are subject to religious courts .... which are strongly patriarchal in character, and which still apply "laws" that are effectively gender-discriminatory. Of course, there are also religious communities that also enforce traditional practices that are even more discriminatory against women ... In the Judaic justice system as in the Muslim, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Christian justice systems.

As I watched the video, I was thinking - here's another subject that could provide a meeting place for Israelis & Palestinians (Israeli, but also non-Israel, and across religious groupings - Muslim, Christian, Druze) ... Peace building can only really start through sharing recognition of all that people have in common, rather than blocking out "the other" because of the differences that people insist on stressing ...

 

Janet B (0)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 12:26 pm
Thanks
 

Knud Thirup (54)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 2:07 pm
noted and shared
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 2:56 pm
Noted w/thanks for posting, Evelyn.
 

Colleen L (3)
Sunday April 24, 2016, 10:42 pm
Thanks Evelyn
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 2:22 am
BDS are dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
They've achieved nothing except 1) put many Palestinians out of work, making them and their families destitute, and 2) stir up anti-Semitism.

Even the PA wants nothing to do with them, branding them trouble makers and declaring they were working against finding a peaceful settlement.

Barghouti, founder and leader of BDS, emigrated TO Israel, and happily lives and works there! What a hypocrite!

Anyone who isn't totally blinded by racial hatred can see that the very opposite is needed i.e. the CREATION of jobs and economic prosperity for the Palestinians, to establish a more moderate political environment, thus making peace a genuine possibility.
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 4:56 am
A Green Star coming your way John. But you're wasting your time here.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 5:18 am
It is because BDS IS hurting that Israel and its Zionist supporters are investing so much to fight the BDS movement.
People like Adelson haven't put up huge sums to fight BDS because they think they'll help Palestinians by forcing an end to BDS!!!! And they are not fools, who waste their money .... And anyone who believes the hasbara spin that BDS has had no effect, has had no impact in achieving its goals of combatting the Occupation is either as thick as a brick or keeping their mind closed.

BDS is NOT anti-Israel - as you'll realise if you actually listen (or read the translation) here, or read up about it.

It is against the Occupation, against the institutional & practical discrimination between Palestinians & Israelis. End the Occupation, install equal human rights for Arabs (Israeli or Palestinian, of whatever religion) - and then work sincerely for building peace (be it a Two State or a One State solution), and BDS would end.
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 5:24 am
Evelyn,
Stop being so disingenuous! Arabs enjoy full civil rights in Israel, as do women and homosexuals.
Unlike in Palestine!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 5:25 am
Several green stars coming your way, Evelyn. You're wasting your time with this UKIP right-winger who has a severe dose of myopia.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 5:31 am
See the actual basis of BDS -
Not the hasbara version ... the original

Palestinian Civil Society Calls for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel Until it Complies with International Law and Universal Principles of Human Rights
Palestinian Civil Society Call for BDS
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 5:38 am
John W, you are either ill-informed or you don't give a damn for equal rights ...
Israel does NOT accord full and equal rights to Jews and non-Jews
Check out, for example, laws concerning appropriation of land from absentee owners .....
Check out rights of residence for non-Jews within Israel (and the settlements, which Israel treats as though they were legally part of Israel ...
And those are just a couple of examples ....
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 9:13 am
Evelyn,
Stop being disingenuous. We both know that Arabs who accepted Israeli citizenship enjoy full rights under Israeli law. Some Arabs refused to become citizens, thus do not have full rights.

Darren,
There's nothing wrong in wanting to leave the EU. As far as I'm concerned, you're a traitor!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 10:34 am
"I do not buy into the two state solution" - Omar Bharghouti BDS

"Ending the 'occupation' doesn't mean anything if it doesn't mean upending the Jewish state itself ... BDS does mean the end of the Jewish state" - Ahmed Moor BDS

"The real aim of BDS is to bring down the state of Israel ... That should be stated as an ambiguous goal" - As'ad AbuKhalil

"There's no Israel. That's what it's really all about" - Norman Finkelstein BDS

"We need to wipe out Israel" - Anna Baltzer BDS

"I, for one, support euthansia (of the state of Israel)" - Omar Bharghouti BDS
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 10:45 am
Another green star coming your way John D and have sent you a friends request
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 10:51 am
John D,
Unfortunately, this site is full of idiots who blindly follow the lies their cultural Marxist puppet masters feed them. They are incapable of thinking for themselves, and think they are better people than us!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:05 pm
With the way that settlement expansion across the Occupied Territories has been accelerated, there is little realistic hope for a Two State solution - because the settlers would never accept being part of a separate Palestine, and a separate Palestine constituted of "Bantustan" ilots would be unmanageable.

Cherry-picking (inaccurately) as usual ...

The context of Barghouti's quote - about political Zionism, not about Israel is:
"Blinded by the arrogance of power and the ephemeral comfort of impunity, Israel, against its strategic Zionist interests, failed to control its insatiable appetite for expansion, and went ahead with devouring the very last bit of land that was supposed to form the material foundation for an independent Palestinian state.

The current phase has all the emblematic properties of what may be considered the final chapter of the Zionist project. We are witnessing the rapid demise of Zionism, and nothing can be done to save it, for Zionism is intent on killing itself. I, for one, support euthanasia."
Relative Humanity: The Fundamental Obstacle to a One-State Solution in Historic Palestine (1/2)

Some other points from this article (which, incidentally, predates the BDS movement)

"3.1.C. Israel’s System of Racial Discrimination: Intelligent, Nuanced — but still Apartheid
US academic Edward Herman writes:

If Jews in France were required to carry identification cards designating them Jews (even though French citizens), could not acquire land or buy or rent homes in most of the country, were not eligible for service in the armed forces, and French law banned any political party or legislation calling for equal rights for Jews, would France be widely praised in the United States as a “symbol of human decency” (New York Times) and paragon of democracy? Would there be a huge protest if France, in consequence of such laws and practices, was declared by a UN majority to be a racist state?[31]

Advocating comprehensive and unequivocal equality between Arabs and Jews in Israel has become tantamount to sedition, if not treason. An Israeli High Court justice has recently stated on record that: ‘it is necessary to prevent a Jew or Arab who calls for equality of rights for Arabs from sitting in the Knesset or being elected to it.’[32]

In every vital area of life, including marriage laws, urban development and education, Israel has perfected a comprehensive apparatus of racial discrimination against its Palestinian citizens that is unparalleled anywhere today."
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:17 pm
Evelyn,
There was a two state solution. It's called Jordan!
Your post is dull and you make me into a Zionist more and more!
I Stand With Israel!
More Muslim Taqiyya from you. Still going to expose your falsehoods every time I can.
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:18 pm
Psst, I really am not on Mossad pay list (I wish)
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:20 pm
Sorry Evelyn,
Bit people who actually lived under apartheid call you a liar!
Will get the link
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:25 pm
http://youtu.be/AcEL-NlxBk0

According to black South Africans, Israel isn't an apartheid state!
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:33 pm
Sorry Evelyn, but even Black South Africans in parliament call you a liar. Now tell me I am ignorant!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 12:48 pm
Nelson Mandela didn't agree with the opinion of this one South African -
https://youtu.be/7H1AGqUznH0 Nelson Mandela comparing Israel to Apartheid

"Mandela expressed his support of Palestinians during a 1997 speech in Pretoria for International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.

• "When in 1977, the United Nations passed the resolution inaugurating the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, it was asserting the recognition that injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period, the UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world."

• "These Palestinian and Israeli campaigners for peace know that security for any nation is not abstract; neither is it exclusive. It depends on the security of others; it depends on mutual respect and trust. Indeed, these soldiers of peace know that their destiny is bound together, and that none can be at peace while others wallow in poverty and insecurity."

Breaking News at Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/nelson-mandela-israel-quotes/2014/09/15/id/594157/#ixzz46xnXYJXO

There are more than one form of apartheid - but this thread is about Jewish feminists discussing BDS -
Please, either keep to the subject or keep your deviations to yourself.
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 1:08 pm
So only one South African disagreed with another South African.
Seen it... so you think Nelson Mandela (who was in his dotage) trumps facts... okay.

Question was Nelson Mandela a better man than Winston Churchill?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 3:39 pm

Evelyn - you must be an angel in disguise given your immense patience ... although an "Egyptian Islamist" angel - LOL.

Green Stars to you: ******************************************************
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 4:06 pm

Dearest Evelyn - I'm sure you don't mind me posting this info from Jewish Voice for Peace in your thread. It also goes to show how far the "equal treatment" of all Israeli citizens goes ... you may want to join in signing the petition to the JNF if you haven't done so already!

From Jewish Voice for Peace:

In February, we wrote to you about the imminent demolition of two Arab Bedouin villages in Southern Israel, Umm al-Hiran and Atir. (It’s okay if you don’t remember -- I’ve attached the email below to jog your memory.)

Our allies, Jewish Coalition for the Bedouin of Umm al-Hiran and Atir, asked us to raise the alarm about the demolitions, and show the Israeli government that the world was watching. That’s exactly what we did -- over 10,000 of us emailed Benjamin Netanyahu, and urged him to step in and prevent the demolition.

But now the villages are under threat again, and we need to act fast.

The Jewish National Fund (JNF) is working hand in hand with the Israeli government to move forward the demolition of the villages, establish a new Jewish town, and plant a forest on the land where Arab Bedouin people have built homes, farms, and mosques. I guess we shouldn’t be surprised: the JNF has a long and sordid history of funding displacement in Israel/Palestine. But they’ve been getting away with it for too long, and we can’t stand for it any longer.

These Arab Bedouin communities were displaced from their ancestral land in 1948. They were displaced again in 1952 and again in 1956, and forced to move to Atir and Umm al-Hiran. And now they’re being displaced once more, so that the JNF can demolish their homes to plant a forest and make way for Jewish settlers.

It’s a pattern being repeated across Israel/Palestine, but this time we have a chance to stop it. The JNF is able to continue expelling non-Jews from their homes because they think that none of us are watching. They think that none of us care.

Let’s send a message to the JNF that they can’t ignore: Jews and allies are watching. Do not demolish the Arab Bedouin villages of Umm al-Hiran and Atir.

On Friday and Saturday night, Jews around the world gathered at seder tables to celebrate Pesach, and the exodus from Egypt. We recommitted ourselves to the idea that in every generation, every single person must feel as though they themselves were liberated. How do we put that into action? This is one of the ways.

Our voices can help stave off the threat of eviction and dispossession for the people of Atir and Umm al-Hiran. And what better way to celebrate Pesach than that?

Email JNF CEO Russell Robinson, and demand that he use his power to stop the demolition of Atir and Umm al-Hiran.

Chag Sameach.
Onwards,
Rabbi Alissa
 

(0)
Tuesday April 26, 2016, 6:16 pm
😄
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday April 27, 2016, 12:40 pm
Eleonora - These johns are not worth wasting time on - they've closed their minds & are only here to express their one-sided view. We should know by now that it is purely for disruption, they don't care about facts!

The Jewish Voice for Peace joins other Jews (including Israeli Jews) in objecting to the discriminatory behaviour of the Israeli government - but some people just don't want to recognise that something has gone horribly wrong with the Jewish Dream ..... and some of those Jews concerned about the abuse of human rights of Palestinians fear that it will be the narrow political Zionist extremist that will destroy Israel ... hence interest in non-violent resistance such as BDS.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday April 27, 2016, 1:11 pm
BDS are just a continuation of what Goebbels started in the Nazi era. No right-minded person should have anything to do with this deceptive campaign of racial hatred.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday April 27, 2016, 1:18 pm
Just for the record, a recent study found 68% of Israeli Arabs questioned would prefer living in Israel as Israeli citizens than under Palestinian rule.

The city of Umm-al Fahm is another case. In 2000 83% of citizens (they're Arabs) voted against transferring jurisdiction of their city to the Palestinian Authority as they had been offered.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday April 27, 2016, 1:42 pm

Absolutely agree, Evelyn - their behavior and trolling is so symptomatic for the Zionist Hasbara camp. Take as an example the continuous misrepresentation of what BDS is all about; it's difficult to believe that adult and seemingly educated people don't have a problem to keep repeating endlessly the same nonsense. One can simply check out the facts and see how wrong their statements are.

Interesting also that Israel spends so much time, effort and money to fight something which a) doesn't hurt them and b) has no effect - LOL!

What I believe is a scary development though is how Israel manages to interfere in the legislation of so many (independent and sovereign ?!?!?!?!) states and can forces them - or twist their arms - to change and alter their laws. Suddenly Freedom of Speech doesn't have a stand anymore when it comes to Israel and reasonable laws are altered to suit Israel's needs. Is this what democracy is all about? Cater to a rogue State?

Can you imagine if ... say ... Switzerland would want to interfere and apply pressure on Israel when it comes to Israeli laws?! Israel would correctly tell Switzerland to get lost. Or imagine for a moment that South Africa would have moved the entire world to outlaw our boycott movement?!?!?!

More important - (although I always say that they should get one point for trying) what's truly disturbing is the fact that Israel is successfully interfering in the legislation of sovereign countries!!


 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday April 27, 2016, 2:31 pm

Why on earth should Umm-al Fahm, which was given at the Lausanne Conference to Israel at its insistence because it needed it for "security reasons" being administratively transferred to the PA? It is in Israel proper and its residents (some 300'000 incl. all the little villages which make up the triangle) identify themselves as Israeli Arabs. The call by Avigdor Lieberman in Jan. 2014 at the annual conference of Israeli Ambassadors amounts to nothing else but partial ethnic cleansing in order to get rid of the Christian and Muslim Israeli Arabs. Simple and straight forward.

They're to be moved administratively to the West Bank which is under Israeli occupation ... great deal indeed. Why should they accept such a lousy deal? To be harassed, humiliated, restricted in their movement and made jobless the very same way West Bank Palestinians are harassed etc. daily by the IDF? No thanks - no good deal.

Just more of the usual Hasbara about the generosity of Isael ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 2:12 am
Nonsense. They had the golden opportunity to live under Palestinian rule. Isn't that what you foreigners (i.e. foreign as in not Palestinian) are always telling us that is what the Palestinians want?!!
Maybe you should ask the Palestinians what they want! Which I strongly suspect is what everyone else wants - jobs, economic prosperity and peace.

They clearly have no desire to live under the corrupt PA or the terrorist Mafia Hamas. And who can lame them?

And you were dancing a jig when the Muslim Brotherhood were overthrown I seem to recall.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 2:15 am
Unemployment, destitution and hopelessness are breeding grounds for terrorism

Employment and economic prosperity lead to political and social moderacy.

BDS and our friends here want to keep the Palestinians out of work and in poverty ... I wonder why?
 

(0)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 2:24 am
Well said John D,
and some here have the nerve to call us trolls!
 

(0)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 7:51 am
Neither John D or I are engaged in Hasbara. We're not Israelis or in the pay of Israel. We are just countering Palestine propaganda and the lies spread by Israeli cucks.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 8:08 am
Thanks John. One thing though, re Darren. I don't agree with everything he says but I've been here long enough to know he is a thoroughly good person. He always gives honest opinion as he sees it. The others have an agenda, an anti-Semitic one in my view I have to say, but Darren is alright.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 9:19 am
Eleonora - valid points indeed.
And I agree about the amount Israel is spending (both cash & influence) to try to stifle freedom of speech and of action in a non-violent response to Israel's illegal activities in the Occupied Territories ...

As for wanting to transfer communities to the Occupied Territories from Israel - this is surely part of the intention to "swap" settlement lands (& populations) with Palestinian Israeli groups - hoping that nobody will look too closely at the quality of alternative locations, nor at the viability of administering Bantustans thus created ... The hasbara voice will try to present forced displacements as "generosity" - and their supporters - who are incapable of grasping that it is the land itself to which the Palestinians are attached, because of their family ties over generations- will spout rubbish about choosing between Israel & Palestine (and their extended junk talk will be that the Palestinians should move to Jordan ... because they have totally blocked any ability to understand the call of traditional land ties) ... Have you noticed the increasing frequency with which these blind folk try to label Jordan as the Palestinians' real land?
 

(0)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 9:59 am
Evelyn,
The so called historic ties to the land is utter fabrication by the so called "Palestinian" people. They really do belong in Jordan. They also should be called Arabs. They could have lived in Jordan, but got expelled for engaging in terrorism.
 

(0)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 11:22 am
I have posted a C2NN article refuting the lies of the BDS movement and it's Palestinian Propaganda!

http://www.care2.com/news/member/659862369/3978908
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 2:04 pm


John de Avalon - you can repeat your mantra until you literally go blue in the face; it doesn't make it true.

I wonder what your response would be if I were to apply the same "logic" to the fact that more than 50% (!!) of the Jewish people prefer to live outside of Israel? To paraphrase and adapt your statement above:

"They clearly have no desire to live under the corrupt apartheid Israeli Government or the terrorist Zionist Ashkenazim Mafia".

You know how much of a nonsense such a statement as uttered by you is, don't you?: "Unemployment, destitution and hopelessness are breeding grounds for terrorism". If this were truly THE reasons for terrorism then we should see daily attacks in almost all the countries.

It IS the OCCUPATION, oppression, continuous land theft, extrajudicial killings, deportations/exiling, daily humiliation, denying them the very same basic human rights as the Jews demand for themselves incl. a state of their own where they can be the ones in charge of deciding their and their children's future.

In other words - those living under occupation do fight and have the right to fight for their FREEDOM. Is that too difficult a concept for you to grasp?

You can offer a person who has no freedom the best paid job and the most beautiful house … without freedom it is worth nothing. I do conclude that if one is for sale such simple facts can’t be grasped, don’t really matter neither are they of interest.

That you and your likes make out of those freedom fighters the convenient "terrorists" doesn't change an iota on the facts.

Polit-Israel is an ever expanding pariah and rogue state and should be held accountable for its unlawful actions and breach of practically each and every international law and convention. Very much like all the other states are held accountable. Instead Israel gets supplied with Billions of American and German taxpayer's money, gets the most modern and most expensive (again at the expense of the taxpayers) weapons arsenal and everyone has on top of it the nerve to call this expansionist colonialism "self-defense"!

The most skilled Hasbaratchiks can't turn the tide of knowledge around anymore. The dirty laundry is out in the open and the confirmation that we're on the right track is shown in the fact how fierce the fight against BDS is led by Israel and its patsies. In the same vein goes the various (most often successful) attempts to criminalize and label everything "anti-Semitism" in a futile attempt to stifle Freedom of Expression. A Freedom which is always stretched to the limit when it comes to attacking, perverting, humiliating and dehumanizing roughly 2 Billion Muslims. Then Freedom of Expression can’t be held high enough - interestingly mostly by those who declare themselves as Zionists.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:16 pm

Hi Evelyn - I've noticed that right now some are out of the woodworks again trying their very best ... which is by far not close to good enough ;-). You know that I agree with your points raised in your last comment.

I love the almost "Orwellian" talk of John de Avalon as if occupation, dehumanization and disenfranchisement can be talked away!! It can not!!

Equally I love it how John W. brushes aside what he labels the "so called historic ties to the land is utter fabrication by the so called "Palestinian" ..." ... yet we're all to swallow the "historic ties" to the land by people whose DNA clearly show that they have nothing at all to do with the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Arabs who live in the Middle East. They come from East and Central Europe, South America, Black Africa, China ... and just because at some point they converted to Judaism ... believe that they can claim "historic ties" to the land in the Middle East. In those cases it is naturally OK ...!!! ... ask John W. ;-).. The longer version thereof can be found on the right hand side. Got to love it - LOL!

BTW and in this context: the book of Prof Sand "The invention of the Jewish People" makes interesting reading.

Fascinating too how the world accepted (often by force) these "ties" for such a long time and now even happily rides on the Judeo-Christian wave; an absolute and invented nonsense by the Zionists full well knowing how much they dislike each other.

As for Freedom of Speech - I assume you've seen the charade which took place in the UK? Former London Mayor Ken Livingstone has been suspended from the Labour Party as well as Member of Parliament, Ms Naz Shah, because Livingston dared to criticize Israel and Ms Shah sometime in 2014 put up a Facebook post in which she shared a graphic that showed the outline of Israel superimposed on a map of the U.S. under the headline "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict - Relocate Israel into United States."

This was before she was elected to the Parliament. Ever since she has apologized on her knees for it and humiliated herself - to no avail. It is self-evident that Israel pondering and wanting to transfer Christian and Muslim Arabs is OK and not the same as suggesting the transfer of European Jews from the Middle East to the US. Jonathan Arkush, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, goes even so far as to call for Livingston to be expelled from the party!!

That much for Freedom of Speech and "Freedom of Speech".
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:32 pm

This is just to prove how correct John de Avalon is with his claim: "Employment and economic prosperity lead to political and social moderacy."

By extension one must conclude that Israel has everything in mind but definitely not "political and social moderacy" in the Occupied Territories. The opposite is the case - Israel wants to fane the flames and incite to more and more violence ... in order to clamp down further on these "terrorists" ... and to make sure that the cycle of violence can't be broken. At the same time polit-Israel achieves a steady rise in "anti-Semitism" ... which in turn is good for their ultimate goal and eternal "victimhood".

At times I'm really sick and tired of this see-through game - not so much about the game but about the willingness of the world leaders, politicians on communal levels as well as ordinary people to go along with such a charade.

Future of Palestinian Town Bleak After Israel Shuts Quarries


Human Rights Watch quoted three Palestinian quarry owners as saying they have repeatedly tried to prove ownership of the land, but been rejected. Quarry owners also said they repeatedly asked for licenses, but were ignored or turned down.

"This is our land, it's in our village, not in Israel," quarry owner Abdel Moin al-Taweel said this week, after seeing two bulldozers and other heavy equipment confiscated.

Quarries and stone factories are the economic bedrock of Beit Fajar, employing some 3,500 people and producing an estimated $25 million a year.

Sari Bashi, the Israel and Palestine director at HRW, said the latest measures counter recent assurances by the military to facilitate Palestinian economic development.

"Instead, it is choking a Palestinian-run industry in the West Bank, while promoting the same industry in Israeli settlements," she said.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:36 pm

Something went wrong - here's the full article (link above):

APRIL 20, 2016, 11:03 P.M. E.D.T.

BEIT FAJAR, West Bank — The future of the Palestinian town of Beit Fajar looks bleak after Israel's military forced the shutdown of some three dozen quarries in the area, endangering 3,500 jobs and paralyzing the dominant local industry.

Palestinian quarry owners and their lawyer say March 21 raids of the quarries by hundreds of Israeli soldiers and the confiscation of millions of dollars in equipment amount to collective punishment. The raids came four days after two Beit Fajar residents stabbed and wounded an Israeli soldier.

The fate of the quarries also highlights Israel's policy of favoring Jewish settlement businesses in the occupied West Bank over those of local Palestinians, the New York-based group Human Rights Watch said Thursday. Israel has not issued new licenses for Palestinian-run quarries in the West Bank since 1994, while giving operating permits to 11 Israeli-run quarries in the area, the group said.

The Israeli-administered quarries produce 25 percent of the quarrying materials for the Israeli and settlement economies, amounting to Israeli exploitation of natural resources in occupied territories in violation of Israel's obligations as an occupying power, HRW said.

"I think Israel wants to strike at the Palestinian economy," said Subhi Thawabteh, head of the Union of Stone and Marble in Palestine. "This is part of the Israeli pressure on the Palestinians. They want us to desert our land and fill it with Israeli settlers."

COGAT, the Israeli military body that deals with Palestinian civilian affairs, denied the accusations in the report.

In a statement, it noted that it had approved the planning of four Palestinian quarries seeking temporary licenses elsewhere in the West Bank. It said the Beit Fajar quarries have operated illegally for many years and pose a safety and environmental hazard. It also said that "unfortunately" their owners have not taken proper steps to legalize the quarries.

Roni Salman, a lawyer representing the Palestinian quarry owners, said he believes the raids amounted to "collective punishment of the people of Beit Fajar" for the attack carried out by the two village residents.

Human Rights Watch also noted that a previous raid of quarries by the military came three days after a Beit Fajar resident killed an Israeli woman in a West Bank attack in November.

Asked about the timing, COGAT wrote to HRW that the raids were carried out once resources were available and "as per priority."

Quarry owners said troops confiscated equipment in the past, but that the heavy machinery was usually returned after payment of heavy fines. This time, Israel had stiffer demands.

In a letter to HRW, it said that quarry owners will have to pledge to "cease illegal operations." They would also have to reimburse the military for the cost of confiscating equipment and pay retroactive royalties for extracting stones.

Salman, the lawyer, said he is trying to persuade quarry owners to appeal to Israel's Supreme Court to try to challenge Israel's overall policy.

Underlying the dispute is a complex division of the West Bank into jurisdictions — a legacy of failed negotiations on Palestinian statehood on lands Israel captured in 1967, including the West Bank.

Israel retains full control over more than 60 percent of the West Bank, known as "Area C" and home to dozens of Israeli settlements with some 370,000 residents. The rest of the territory, where most Palestinians live, is under varying degrees of Palestinian self-rule.

Beit Fajar, near biblical Bethlehem, is located in autonomous territory, but the quarries are in Area C. Israel argues that the quarries are on state land, a designation critics say has routinely been used to take lands from Palestinians.

Human Rights Watch quoted three Palestinian quarry owners as saying they have repeatedly tried to prove ownership of the land, but been rejected. Quarry owners also said they repeatedly asked for licenses, but were ignored or turned down.

"This is our land, it's in our village, not in Israel," quarry owner Abdel Moin al-Taweel said this week, after seeing two bulldozers and other heavy equipment confiscated.

Quarries and stone factories are the economic bedrock of Beit Fajar, employing some 3,500 people and producing an estimated $25 million a year.

Sari Bashi, the Israel and Palestine director at HRW, said the latest measures counter recent assurances by the military to facilitate Palestinian economic development.

"Instead, it is choking a Palestinian-run industry in the West Bank, while promoting the same industry in Israeli settlements," she said.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:39 pm
Something went wrong - here's the full article (link above) from the New York Times:

APRIL 20, 2016, 11:03 P.M. E.D.T.

BEIT FAJAR, West Bank — The future of the Palestinian town of Beit Fajar looks bleak after Israel's military forced the shutdown of some three dozen quarries in the area, endangering 3,500 jobs and paralyzing the dominant local industry.

Palestinian quarry owners and their lawyer say March 21 raids of the quarries by hundreds of Israeli soldiers and the confiscation of millions of dollars in equipment amount to collective punishment. The raids came four days after two Beit Fajar residents stabbed and wounded an Israeli soldier.

The fate of the quarries also highlights Israel's policy of favoring Jewish settlement businesses in the occupied West Bank over those of local Palestinians, the New York-based group Human Rights Watch said Thursday. Israel has not issued new licenses for Palestinian-run quarries in the West Bank since 1994, while giving operating permits to 11 Israeli-run quarries in the area, the group said.

The Israeli-administered quarries produce 25 percent of the quarrying materials for the Israeli and settlement economies, amounting to Israeli exploitation of natural resources in occupied territories in violation of Israel's obligations as an occupying power, HRW said.

"I think Israel wants to strike at the Palestinian economy," said Subhi Thawabteh, head of the Union of Stone and Marble in Palestine. "This is part of the Israeli pressure on the Palestinians. They want us to desert our land and fill it with Israeli settlers."

COGAT, the Israeli military body that deals with Palestinian civilian affairs, denied the accusations in the report.

In a statement, it noted that it had approved the planning of four Palestinian quarries seeking temporary licenses elsewhere in the West Bank. It said the Beit Fajar quarries have operated illegally for many years and pose a safety and environmental hazard. It also said that "unfortunately" their owners have not taken proper steps to legalize the quarries.

Roni Salman, a lawyer representing the Palestinian quarry owners, said he believes the raids amounted to "collective punishment of the people of Beit Fajar" for the attack carried out by the two village residents.

Human Rights Watch also noted that a previous raid of quarries by the military came three days after a Beit Fajar resident killed an Israeli woman in a West Bank attack in November.

Asked about the timing, COGAT wrote to HRW that the raids were carried out once resources were available and "as per priority."

Quarry owners said troops confiscated equipment in the past, but that the heavy machinery was usually returned after payment of heavy fines. This time, Israel had stiffer demands.

In a letter to HRW, it said that quarry owners will have to pledge to "cease illegal operations." They would also have to reimburse the military for the cost of confiscating equipment and pay retroactive royalties for extracting stones.

Salman, the lawyer, said he is trying to persuade quarry owners to appeal to Israel's Supreme Court to try to challenge Israel's overall policy.

Underlying the dispute is a complex division of the West Bank into jurisdictions — a legacy of failed negotiations on Palestinian statehood on lands Israel captured in 1967, including the West Bank.

Israel retains full control over more than 60 percent of the West Bank, known as "Area C" and home to dozens of Israeli settlements with some 370,000 residents. The rest of the territory, where most Palestinians live, is under varying degrees of Palestinian self-rule.

Beit Fajar, near biblical Bethlehem, is located in autonomous territory, but the quarries are in Area C. Israel argues that the quarries are on state land, a designation critics say has routinely been used to take lands from Palestinians.

Human Rights Watch quoted three Palestinian quarry owners as saying they have repeatedly tried to prove ownership of the land, but been rejected. Quarry owners also said they repeatedly asked for licenses, but were ignored or turned down.

"This is our land, it's in our village, not in Israel," quarry owner Abdel Moin al-Taweel said this week, after seeing two bulldozers and other heavy equipment confiscated.

Quarries and stone factories are the economic bedrock of Beit Fajar, employing some 3,500 people and producing an estimated $25 million a year.

Sari Bashi, the Israel and Palestine director at HRW, said the latest measures counter recent assurances by the military to facilitate Palestinian economic development.

"Instead, it is choking a Palestinian-run industry in the West Bank, while promoting the same industry in Israeli settlements," she said.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:40 pm

There's obviously a problem for comments not showing up immediately - sorry for the double-posting!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 3:46 pm
Or you're purposely trying to 'flood' the thread to 'lose' certain embarrassing truths.

Too late.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday April 28, 2016, 4:36 pm

LOL - John. And what exactly would those "certain embarrassing truths" be?

That Israel is delivering proof time and again that our points and criticisms are correct and YOUR claims are nothing but lukewarm air?

Yes, well, I can understand that this is embarrassing for you ... Cheers!

 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday April 29, 2016, 12:22 am
Another reporting of that story was posted here, Eleonora Future of Palestinian Town Bleak After Israel Shuts Quarries

We've been seeing "latency" hitting comments off and on - resulting in duplication of comments (I've encountered the problem several times, & have seen others who've repeated comments thinking their comment had been lost .... a real nuisance!)

John W's link takes one to a post from a site whose motto is
"Target of Opportunity - Eliminating the planet of liberals one ..."
(Google it - "Target of Opportunity + website" ... .
you'll see the values ..... which are not really a surprise!)
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 12:51 am
John D,
Have you noticed how if we present historic facts and evidence, we're shills to Israel engaged in Hasbara?
But when they defend terrorists, they are defending a poor and oppressed people.
They claim that what we call terrorists are really freedom fighters.
A fire fighter fights fire.
So what does a freedom fighter fight?
Those so called "freedom fighters" are fighting against freedom and want Sharia law imposed upon everyone.
Jewish law only applies to Jews.
Catholic Canonical law only applies to Catholics.
Yet, according to Islamic law (Sharia) that must be forced upon everyone.

Yes, Christians and Jews haven't always got along together. But we've put aside historic mistakes. Unlike Muslims who twist historical facts to play the eternal victims.
It's Muslims not Jews who play the victim card!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 1:41 am

A very good morning to you, Evelyn ;-) - Yes, most people see the duplications for what they are... except those "conspiracy" minded Hasbaratchiks who try to construct something out of it ... which they can't even support with a little shred of evidence. Still wondering what those "embarrassing truths" John de Avalon mentioned are - LOL!! For sure he didn't mean the economic destruction of the West Bank by peace-loving Israel in closing down those Palestinian run quarries ... and giving licenses to the fanatic settlers?!

Thanks for the link to that "glorious" website - does anyone take such crap serious? I mean ... at the top right it states: "Target of Opportunity. Taking aim at the hatred of the Left-Wing" ???? Just reading through the many comments of our beloved friends aka upright supporters of Zionists aka Islamophobes ... one can't help but notice with chagrin who is the hate-filled party which does nothing but inciting against a certain group of people at every opportunity. And if there are no opportunities ... one creates one (see the last posting of John W.).

Have a good day!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 1:49 am

You know what really came as a surprise, Evelyn? There are many Jewish people on this "Target" website listed as terrorists and persona non grata - pure anti-Semitism. I'd assume that this is overlooked ... or does this run under "collateral damage"? LOL! But who's checking anyway ...
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 1:55 am

John W. - stop spinning like a lil’ Dreidl you just make it worse ... or would you call those Zionists who blew up hundreds of buses with Palestinian civilians inside in the 1930's in the "holy land" ... claiming that they were "freedom fighters" ... would you actually label them terrorists?!
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:00 am
Just for clarification Eleonora,
Yes I would label the Jewish terrorists of the 1930's terrorists and not freedom fighters. They didn't need to engage in such tactics. They had historic truth on their side and they made Britain (who had a mandate at the time) less sympathetic to their cause.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:06 am
The difference between us Eleonora is I don't see the world in black and white.
To use an example from my own country.
We bombed Dresden towards the end of the Second World War. I think that was a war crime. However, I still think we were right to fight against the Nazis!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:12 am
Ben Gurion did, Eleonora! As he did the gangs carrying out ethnic cleansing in places like Deir Yassin ...
Unusual (but perhaps it was because he knew that once they had their state, such extremists would be a liability?)

Usually, the oppressors call the freedom fighters "terrorists", just as those holding tight control call critics "traitors" ...... (e.g. right wingers who want to eliminate liberals/ left wing thinkers!)

I wonder how Darren feels about being patted on the head by supporters of such thinking?

But let the johns excite each other, if they really don't realise the hasbara narrative behind their "sources", that's their problem .....

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:23 am

I know that he did, Evelyn. I was just wondering how John W. would see it and he didn't disappoint me the least. I've read verbetum the very same answer on a number of other threads when this facts are brought up. Some deny at first that Zionists/Jews would do such outrageous stuff ... but presented with evidence they usually come around just to jump on the argument with the "historic truth" - LOL. Strange that they all use the same wording ...

Yeah, the fun is gone in holding the mirror to their faces. I guess we (again) successfully proved that Hasbara doesn't work anymore!

John W. - bombing Dresden was not a war crime if it was in the fight against the enemy (Nazis in this case). Otherwise the bombing of all the other German cities would be classified as war crimes too.

The CARPET BOMBING of civilians though is what amounted to war crimes! Sorry I'm a bit picky on how to use certain catch phrases ...
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:29 am

Just one last thought - why is it OK that the Zionists (Jews) can excuse everything and all with the so-called "historic truth" and some claims made in a man-written book (although HaShem is NOT a real estate broker) ... but when it comes to the Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) the very same right is denied to them?!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:32 am
ANY bombing, or war, IS A CRIME, John. Kindly let THAT FACT settle into your cranium. Actually both Johns.

BTW, don't even bother with British Empire or Colonialism arguments, unless you reset yourself back into the Dark Ages. The inane chatter over here about the BREXIT is amusingly childish and trivial, but fuels the deranged Press/Media animal further. Fresh air and food is required to take stock of where we all are in this sorry sick world we inhabit. Some of these arguments here are simply draining and pointless. Wake up and grow up.

Actually, the pat on the back, Evelyn, means that there is something of substance to John De Avalon. I don't need my egoism stroked by anyone here, I have plenty friction in my own family, where I'm in a minority with mother, brother and sister's boyfriend having racist traits within their own bloodstream fueled by the Press/Media machine.

I still make my mother tea and love her dearly, despite the fact her head-brain is cluttered with right-wing crap. I still enjoy music with my sister's boyfriend, despite his insistence that Jihadi Fundamentalists are running rife in Britain and we should bomb the Middle East. Utter garbage, but he likes Pink Floyd and some King Crimson.

Striving for "confirmation bias" as John W. is, means ZERO. We merely reinforce your own shallow, narrow-minded subjective perspective on how we believe the world runs.

John W. and his little American girlfriend, Diane., removed me from Political Derby, because I didn't follow their narrative. Children do as much in a school playground.

Read a little Gurdjieff, and see where I'm coming from. A completely different place than you're clearly used to.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:43 am
Eleonora,

Try reading what I actually write, rather than the strawman you think I said. I used Dresden as an historic example of a possible war crime. Is bombing cities a war crime per sa, no. Is bombing a city when victory has been won (despite resistance) yes.

Israel is very careful in it's bombing of Palestine. It gives phone warnings and drops leaflets (just like America did before dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)

I don't defend terrorism of any kind (including the provo IRA.) But I can tell the difference between them. Those that attack military sites and give warnings are very different to those who engage in murdering civilians.

I don't engage in Hasbara, I simply want to defend Western Civilization. I would include South Korea, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand in that list (that's not an exhaustive list.) I simply mean countries that uphold Western values.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday April 29, 2016, 2:55 am
******************************************************* Darren! (I'd already used my quota!!)

My family crosses the spectrum, too! But although I have a brother & a sister who are right wing, we manage to work around our differences most of the time! (And I notice that one of them is starting to ask some serious questions about things formerly "taken for granted"!) And despite a right wing background, my parents certainly applied their Christian faith in a way that was more "lefty"!! Which is probably why two of their offspring lean left!!!

I'd say that the driving force in my stance is a sense of "justice" - I cannot bear injustice ..... and must take a stance against it, be it against lies designed to "justify" injustice or against unjust behaviour .... And this raises such questions as yours at Friday April 29, 2016, 2:29 am, Eleonora ....

One must be very determined to avoid the truth if one doesn't check for oneself the archives-supported reality of history, simply spewing tailored "mis-speaking" ....
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 3:02 am
Darren,

When you were a member of Political Derby, I didn't have the capacity to block anyone. Nor have I ever used that ability even when I had the power to do so.
None of the hosts of PD are romantically involved, and you know full well that Diane is married and an American. I'm British and don't do affairs.

John D,
The above reply is why I have very little time for Darren, and his slanderous remarks like that which got him kicked out of Political Derby.

Darren,
It was the British empire and colonialism that kept the peace in "Palestine" that's why I won't defend Jewish terrorism from that era. However, I will defend Israel's right to exist, and deny Arabs the right to conquest based upon historic lies.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday April 29, 2016, 3:34 am
The only people who suggest a rejection of Israel's right to exist at this point in time are those justifying Israeli abuse of human rights .... The Palestinians have long since moved on from early rejection of a State established for people NOT rooted consistently over centuries in THEIR land - a State that caused massive displacement of Palestinians, then imported (and continues to import) ONLY those of a specific religious category - far from all of whom have genetic roots in the land they now claim. The PA has recognised Israel - as has Hamas within the 21st century (which is why the hasbara has to go back to an early Charter, no longer valid, to claim Hamas refuses to accept the State of Israel).

Cherry-picking quotes of Barghouti, for example, try to turn his doubts about the viability of a Two State solution into a rejection of Israel - when in fact, he is talking along the lines of a One State solution being the only viable option to be discussed in peace talks. And that one state doesn't mean destruction of the Jewish population of Israel - it means FULL equality of all citizens, irrespective of religious affiliation & ethnicity. But the pro-Zionists do NOT want this, and will twist facts any which way to avoid honest presentation of the facts - They don't want any solution that includes the Palestinians - even if an element that has to be resolved for achieving full peace would not need to include the status of Palestinian refugees currently blocked outside .... The extremists want a purely Jewish State but they don't want people to realise the discrepancy between this and "democracy" ... until the land is ethnically cleansed. Meanwhile they'll push for more and more appropriation of Palestinian land for Jewish Only settlements & villages ... and now they're pushing the idea that Palestinians came from Trans Jordan ..... and the ignorant swallow this story despite maps that go back many centuries .....

Surprise, surprise - there were even people living in this lands before the Hebrews left Egypt ... even, before Abraham's tribe left Mesopotamia ..... And the Hebrews were supposed to respect this fact.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 4:33 am

Darren - it's a waste of time to try to promote Gurdjieff; the only chance to get their attention is to promote ... no, not even a peaceful Israel for ALL of its inhabitants ... but just the status quo Israel which expands uncontrollably like a cancer. Yes, wars are crimes against humanity - agree with you on that one, Darren. But other than repeatedly speaking out and protesting against any war ... what's there for us to do?!

John W. - "Israel is very careful in it's bombing of Palestine. It gives phone warnings and drops leaflets (just like America did before dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)"

Yes, you're right - Israel is very careful in making sure that they get as many Palestinian CIVILIANS as possible.
Like when they dropped a one-ton bomb to get a SUSPECTED terrorist and killed 13 children with it.
Like when they dropped leaflets during the 2006 war of aggression in the South of Lebanon warning the residents that they'll bomb them in 60 minutes. All fled using the one and only coastal road leading up north ... and got bombarded to smithereens the IAF.
Like in Gaza 2014 - they call that they'll bombard and/or blow up the house and ONE MINUTE later they blow it up. One heck of a pre-warning that gives any abled and top-fit person in his/her mid 20's ZERO chance to escape.

As I said - stop spinning like a lil' dreidl ...

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 4:38 am

Evelyn - you shouldn't bring up the fact that the Hebrews way back then INVADED that unholy land, killed, maimed and expelled the rightful indigenous inhabitants and claimed it as theirs.

It's all déjà-vu what they're doing today to the Palestinians. Even their claim to Jerusalem is a lie as it wasn't built by them

Fascinating how on top of all these facts they claim "eternal victimhood" and get away with it. Time and time again ...
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday April 29, 2016, 7:19 am
Darren: "Both Johns"? When have I ever condoned anyone bombing anybody? Like NEVER.
But no matter.

Thanks for the green star by the way.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday April 29, 2016, 7:40 am
Always amuses me, these people. 'No surrender'! Shouted not from the barricades, but from hundreds, in some cases thousands of miles away. From the comfort of their centrally heated homes with all mod cons, a full larder and nice car parked up outside, enjoying nights out and holidays. Though they are happy for the Palestinians to be denied jobs and the economic prosperity to enjoy these things for themselves, as if they don't aspire to the very same things.

And they are happy to bang the drum for Hamas, though never in a million years would they want to live under their rule themselves.

All of this is nothing more than a racial hatred inspired campaign of economic terrorism, which only hurts the ordinary Palestinians and sets back the cause of peace and the chance of forging the political moderacy essential for peace.
To highlight this, for that at least I am obliged to them.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 8:57 am
John D,
It does amuse me how they accuse us of engaging in hasbara whilst themselves being guilty of taqiyya!
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 8:58 am
They might want everyone to be in dhimmitude towards Islam. But, I do not!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Friday April 29, 2016, 9:10 am
Religion should be kept out of it.

The best thing the international community can do is to invest at ground level in creating jobs in the West Bank and Gaza. Economic prosperity is the best path to reaching and sustaining peace.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 9:56 am
Unfortunately John D,

When dealing with the religion of "peace" keeping religion out of it is impossible. Jews and Christians are use to the idea of religion being a private matter in a secular state. Whilst some Islamic countries have uses this model, it's uncommon in the Middle East.

As for investment in Gaza and the West Bank, that can't be achieved till the BDS movement ends and Hamas stops diverting resources to terrorism.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 9:59 am
'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ." Benjamin Netanyahu
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday April 29, 2016, 1:15 pm

I leave the discussion to both "Johns" - there's nothing to add except that ... to re-use John de Avalon's words accusing us of "banging the drums for Hamas ...

When have we ever banged the drum for Hamas? Like NEVER. But no matter.

Honesty is not really an outstanding feature among trolls.
 

(0)
Friday April 29, 2016, 1:40 pm
Eleonora,
I am no more a troll than you are, and neither is the other John.
Neither of us are posting to make people angry or for a laugh, but because we believe in what we are saying.
I honestly think that Israel is mostly in the right and that Palestine is mostly in the wrong.
 

(0)
Saturday April 30, 2016, 5:10 am
Act Locally,
I will admit to being an agent provocateur at times, but that still doesn't make me a troll. Oh, I have bought goods from both Israel and Palestine. (You're using equipment either made in or under Israeli patients right now.)

I was fully aware that Israel had a female PM and I admire both women. You seem to confuse misogyny with anti-feminism. I do not hate women, but believe in gender equality and equality of opportunity. That's not to say that everyone is suitable for every role in society. As far as I'm aware neither of the two female PM thought of themselves or identified as feminists.
Feminist are a female supremacist movement, and no better than any other supremacist (e.g. The KKK.)
 

(0)
Saturday April 30, 2016, 5:18 am
I mean contains components made in or under Israeli patients
 

John De Avalon (36)
Saturday April 30, 2016, 7:33 am
Eleonora: I've yet to hear any of you utter a word against Hamas. Feel free to do so, to clarify your position.

You lot have made no disguise of the fact that you'd like to see the back of Israel and replaced by Palestinian rule. Okay, if that happened, as if by magic, tomorrow, who exactly do you think would be in charge???? Hamas have already shown they're more than a match militarily for Fatah. They shot rather a lot of their fighters and threw officials off roof tops I seem to recall, just to let them know who's boss.
So Hamas is what you'd get.
 

(0)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 5:29 am
Act Locally,

I'll thank you to know that I do believe in God and reject Satan and all his works!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 11:18 am
John De Avalon, one can't keep religion out of it.

Colonialism and Empire building is egoism and control, with healthy doses of authoritarianism, usage and dominance through class, caste, and superiority filtered through religion, which is used as a bedrock of defence and justification.

John W., your knowledge and understanding of history as it's presented is shallow and narrow. I suspect your understanding of your own religion is based on literalism as well. You can confirm, deny or explain as suits you. The fact you support UKIP suggests your religious understanding is literal, and your understanding is based on colonialism and Empire building, ALL of which are the creation of human egoism, and ZERO to do with genuine religion.
 

(0)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 12:52 pm
Darren,

Just wow! You're wrong on every point.
1) I'm not a historian, but have a good knowledge of history
2) I take a rather gnostic view of Catholic doctrine
3) I joined UKIP because I don't want empires or colonialism (psst isn't mass immigration a form of colonialism?)

My faith in Christianity is based upon the writings of C.S.Lewis. My understanding of Catholic doctrine is built up many sources: Thomas Aquinas. But I look to other sources based upon human reason, e.g. The Tao Te Ching
Why, because as a Christian I believe I can feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit in other cultures. Even in Islam.
 

(0)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 12:56 pm
Darren I meant to say Thomas Aquinas being one among many Christian writings. I love the Philokalia for example
 

(0)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 1:06 pm
Darren,
This is why I joined UKIP (except I believe in technological progress)

Tao Te Ching (The Book Of Change)

80
A small country has fewer people.
Though there are machines that can
work ten to a hundred times faster
than man, they are not needed.
The people take death seriously and do
not travel far.
Though they have boats and carriages,
no one uses them.
Though they have armour and weapons,
no one displays them.
Men return to the knotting of rope in
place of writing.
Their food is plain and good, their
clothes fine but simple, their homes
secure;
They are happy in their ways.
Though they live within sight of their
neighbours,
And crowing cocks and barking dogs
are heard across the way,
Yet they leave each other in peace
while they grow old and die.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 4:24 pm
John W. From your subjective point of view I am.
Fortunately, the world is far bigger than your view of it.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 4:40 pm

John W. – I actually didn’t intend to engage further in rather futile discussions … yet, there’s a point I’d like to understand as you keep dwelling on it. Supremacists.

You – like me – don’t like supremacists. Yet you seem to believe that only Western Civilization and values are worth defending (?). Kind of supremacist thinking IMO, non?

You say your list of countries who uphold Western values is not complete; understood. Yet again … you throw in South Korea – which upholds values which are totally foreign to Westerners and absent in our societies (?).

When you talk about our Western values, John, what exactly do you mean? The Christian values which are ignored and/or trampled on daily by almost everyone?

Or do you mean the new and enlightened values which are: aggressing and bombarding any country to smithereens in order to get their resources which we in the West want at absolute rock bottom price?

Or is using DU Amu freely on civilians and not only being responsible for countless deaths but for immense and continuous sufferings for generations to come more in line with our Western values?

Or is it rather toppling regime after regime if they 1) either don’t serve our purpose anymore or 2) don’t do as told?

Or is it more forcing neck-cutting “trade agreements” through legislations like the TTIP which enables Western corporations to wreck havoc in the host countries and on top of sue those governments in case …?

Or would you rather see those coward drone strikes in certain regions, killing time and again innocent civilians being more representative for our Western values?

Or is what’s happening in Israel more representative of our Western values? As this is our topic let me elaborate a bit more. The Zionists were given half of a land by a country that didn’t own it at the expense of the indigenous people living there ALTHOUH it was clearly stipulated that such should not come at their (the indigenous people) expense. But that was not enough. Immediately after the Partition Plan was made public Plan Dalet was set in motion and more and more land was stolen from the indigenous people; at the time of the Declaration of the State of Israel all that was left for the Palestinian was a meager 22%. And the land and aquifer theft continues until today as I write this incl. the extrajudicial killings, the routine bombings, etc. Would that be more in line with our values?

Or is the creation of criminal terror groups like Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, ISIS et al. by the United States of America better at representing Western values? They are slaughtering daily Muslims and here and there some Christians too. For a better effect the Yazidi’s have been high on the news. Strange, that in the early 80’s when we tried to mobilize the political establishment in our Western countries to the plight of the Yazidis … there was silent. Nobody cared, nobody was interested, it was just not something one wanted to have on the political agenda. Why? Because those going after the Yazidis in those days were the buddies of the West … helping them to uphold Western values.

But maybe you’re more comfortable with the countless genocides which were taking place under the eyes and with the knowledge and often with the quiet tolerance of the West? Like the Holodomor in which some 15 Million people were killed within 1 (one) year; like Rwanda where within 100 (one hundred) days 1 Million people were killed; like Cambodia, like DRCongo … like so many other countries which don’t really have a value … except that in certain African countries such mayhem is wanted as it makes it easier to exploit them.

All our Western values allow us to remember is the Nazi Holocaust – but even there we’re only allowed to remember the ~6 Mio Jews who got killed. The ~5 Million non-Jews are ignored of which ~1.8 Mio were Roma.

Which one is it, John? Which Western values and which civilization are you defending exactly?
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 4:52 pm
Evelyn, I suspect you're wasting valuable time and energy, however, one can hope.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 5:06 pm

John de Avalon – I believe Ros has made the point already but still – let me put in my 2 cts too.

Nota Bene: how about coming clear about those “embarrassing truths” you accused me further up of wanting to hide? Or are you still trying to locate them …

On Thursday April 28, 2016, 2:12 am you said to me: “ And you were dancing a jig when the Muslim Brotherhood were overthrown I seem to recall.”

On Saturday April 30, 2016, 7:33 am you commented: “Eleonora: I've yet to hear any of you utter a word against Hamas. Feel free to do so, to clarify your position.”

If you know my position regarding these criminals who come under the fig leaf of “religion” so well … why do you ask? Just for the sake of filling some spare time?

As I have stated on my profile page and in countless comments here on Care2 … and as you well know … but let me state this for the last time exclusively for you: extremists and fundamentalists of ALL religions are abhorrent, disgusting and should be eliminated … or to use the new term of polit-Israel for killing … “neutralized”. Except that I wouldn’t got as far as killing but they should be isolated from the normal society and appropriately punished.

As for Hamas – well you should thank Arik Sharon, aka the Butcher, that we’re blessed today with Hamas. After all he was instrumental in seeing to it that they got created. I must give it to the old fox: he achieved his goal. He divided the Palestinians. Mission accomplished.

You seem to be a fairly intelligent person and I, hence, can in all fairness assume that you comprehend what you’re reading. Correct me if I’m wrong in my assumption.

It, therefore, follows that your statement “You lot have made no disguise of the fact that you'd like to see the back of Israel and replaced by Palestinian rule.” is either a willful lie coming from your side or intended to provoke. I don’t appreciate either in the context in which it is made.

I have stated umpteen times here on Care2 that it amazes me time and again that none of the Zionists here have ever come up with the most (and only) valid reason as to why Israel must continue to exist. Instead you and your lot distort and rewrite history, twist facts, lie … it just goes to show where your interests are and that the people living in that unholy land – the Jews, Christians and Muslims incl. all the sub-groups of those religions – don’t matter an iota to you and yours.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 1, 2016, 5:12 pm

One more thing, John de Avalon - stop repeating this nonsense mantra of yours (sorry for me saying it so bluntly). It shows you in a rather unfavourable light ...

"The best thing the international community can do is to invest at ground level in creating jobs in the West Bank and Gaza. Economic prosperity is the best path to reaching and sustaining peace."

The international community has done so time and again - especially the EU - only to see their investments being yet again bombarded to smithereens for the umpteenth time. One heck of a ROI, wouldn't you say?!

Ending the OCCUATION and stop stealing the land and aquifers of the Palestinians is not only the best path but the only path to reaching and sustaining peace. Israel knows this, the US and with it the entire West knows it ... maybe one day it will also reach you?


 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 2, 2016, 12:19 am
(Comment vanished - apologies if Care2 then shows it later ...)
Eleonora - ************************************************************************************

But as Darren says ... a waste of time.
You and I - and others criticising Israel that he loves to attack for our criticisms - have clearly stated a number of times our rejection of the Hamas militia extremists and their extremist actions - just as we condemn the extremist polit-Zionists, Hilltop Youth .....

We have also pointed out that there are Israelis (including settlers) that do not support such extremism; that there are even IDF soldiers who express their real concern about the role of Israeli authorities in oppressing the Palestinians, & hence provoking cycles of violence. Unlike those spewing hasbara narrative, misused terms related to Islam etc etc - we differentiate between those responsible for the policies, strategies & actions that we criticise & the population as a whole.

We have tried to encourage a clearer vision of the whole picture by those not attempting to grasp the realities of pictures that actually have many shades of grey .... Hamas is not just one monstrous mass of darkness. There are aspects of Hamas as a whole that are good - responsive to the desperate needs of the most disadvantaged of those displaced Palestinian refugees now located in the Gaza Strip because they've been "cleansed" from their own home towns & villages. As an Islamic organisation, Hamas used the religiously required donations (zakat ) to provide support to the needy - and it was this that won them support when they moved into political action. They were seen to be acting with integrity, where the corruption rife in Fatah was blatant ... so people trusted them. And voted freely for them for this reason. And this democratic expression of choice was rejected by the democratic free world ....

And as always, politics corrupts many who become active in politics - but the way Israel & the Western powers refused the people's choice, supporting the PA's rejection of the fact that they had lost their position of power, has locked the people in an open air prison under an authority that still attempts their social services as per religious obligations, but has also engaged in actions & forms of government that contribute to continued extreme oppression in this open air prison. And the people of Gaza have no way of voting freely for their local & Strip authorities until the prison walls are removed.

And the situation is further complicated by the fact, never recognised by those attacking all who criticise the government policies & strategies of the State of Israel, that Hamas' military & political positions have shifted over the years. Their original Charter, their strategy of supporting suicide bombing - these are past history, they recognised that the bombing strategy was an error & ended it ten years ago; they have made clear statements about accepting the existence of Israel - but raise the issues of treatment of the Palestinian displaced people/ refugees - who make up a large majority of those living in Gaza, a Strip that does not have the resources to support adequately such over-population even if they could produce & export their production freely.

Demands that we condemn categorically "Hamas" as a whole come in a context of one-sided condemnation - Israel is above criticism, now condemn Hamas as a whole ... No space is created for equal exchange of perceptions, it is clear that what is wanted is outright condemnation of .... not only Palestinian policies & strategies but of the whole category "Palestinian", the monster "Hamas" burnt at the stake ... while "Israel" must be left with its mask of innocence & self defence unsullied ....

That's no way to work on foundations for peace building.
BOTH sides have to recognise wrongs done.
BOTH sides have to work seriously to bring under control & eliminate the actions of their own extremists (and the criminals who use such opportunities to act)
BOTH sides have to recognise their own contribution to provocation of acts by the other side.

I don't see much sign of willingness to even try to engage in discussion of this from the johns & their friends .. Stephen does make an attempt from time to time, although it goes against all his upbringing which taught him of the righteousness of Israel & of Zionism (and recognising Zionism's shift to political more than religious ideology - especially what some use it for - is painful).
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 2, 2016, 12:32 am
As for that tired mantra ...

There are so many examples of the Israeli authorities refusing the permits for economic development projects .. and when the projects move ahead anyway, in comes the IDF to destroy the infrastructure - I don't have the link to hand, but the EU has complained to Israel for such actions ..

Examples include IDF demolishes Hebron orphanage's dairy factory

And, of course - the animated film documenting one case The Wanted 18 Cows, Economic Resistance, and Israel
(See also Before BDS, 18 Cows Presented An Existential Threat to Israel)
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday May 2, 2016, 8:46 am
Eleonora: What is there to dispute? Had it not been for the religious bigotry of the Grand Mufti, who swore to annihilate all Jews, there could have been a one nation Palestine. His hate rhetoric left the UN with no option but to impose a two-nation solution.
That created an independent Jewish state and an independent Palestinian state, with the Christians getting nothing.

After independence, the Arabs launched an all-out attack on Israel seeking to destroy the country and the people. They lost. As is common in war, the victors (the Israelis) took some land as reparation and war trophy.
But this was not why Palestine disappeared from the map. Palestine disappeared from the map because the Egyptians annexed Gaza Province and Jordan annexed the West Bank from the Palestinians.
That is historical fact.

Settlers taking over land in the West Bank is not conducive to peace obviously not.
Though it is abundantly clear that in the event of a peace deal, there would be a land swap.
The 1948 Israel was only 9 miles across at its narrowest point! And clearly that is not viable. And a fragmented Palestine (GP and WB) is not viable either. There would have to be a land corridor connecting the two.

On the contrary, mass unemployment, destitution and hopelessness fuels militancy and terrorism.
Had the Allies not wanted to humiliate and bankrupt Germany after WW1, which led inevitably to economic collapse, we might never have suffered Nazism.

Creating jobs, like SodaStream, leads to political moderacy and moderacy in society. There was peace and friendly co-operation in the SodaStream factory even when the Gaza conflict was going on.

With Hamas and Netanyahu in power there is no prospect of peace. Which is why it is crucial to establish political modercay on both sides.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 2, 2016, 10:01 am
Are you also envisaging land corridors linking all the isolated islands within the West Bank?
As usual, you skip roots that led to the conflictual situation by the late 1930s, ...
It is a waste of time trying to discuss; every time you give a crack for fair discussion, you also pile statements that are misleading & inaccurate ...

You are correct in saying that with Netanyahu in power (read - extreme right wingers - he wouldn't be able to swing his provocative & destructive policies without that support) there is no prospect of peace. Equally, while Gaza is blockaded, the Occupation oppressing & efforts to annexe more and more of the West Bank, shifting the ineffective PA and political Hamas cannot take place. Democratic change in Palestine requires free space ..... something the current Israeli government certainly does not wish to allow.

BDS is a chosen non-violent strategy aimed to pressurise change in the oppressive policies. Chosen by Palestinians who do NOT want violence to be used. Israel has a number of strategies designed to prevent economic development in the Occupied Territories .... I notice that you ignore those when you condemn BDS impact on Palestinians
 

(0)
Monday May 2, 2016, 10:59 am
John,
Have you noticed how quick our opponents are to throw insults at us?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 1:39 pm

Evelyn – when did I tell you last that you’re a great lady and friend?! ******************************************

You explained Hamas in a concise and clear way for the … umpteenth time too. I assume we both know that Darren’s assumption is correct: we both waste time and energy explaining what the John’s of this world know by heart. I didn’t have the time nor the energy last night to go into this aspect of the issue which you covered.

Don’t we all remember how the “first free and democratic elections” in Gaza 2006 were praised by the US, the EU and Israel? And don’t we all remember how fast those praises went sour when the aforementioned discovered who won?! LOL!! It was priceless to watch them squirm and twist trying to find a way out and “excusing” their initial euphoria. It was a prime example showing everyone who still needed a proof that neither the US nor Israel want anything remotely resembling democracy in Gaza and the West Bank.

We know exactly what the intentions of those are who demand time and again the very same from us. I never understood what it adds anyway – as we know, words come easy and often don’t live up to reality. Haven’t we all read those “beautiful” … comments here on Care2 dripping with hate and incitement against ALL Muslims, about nuking ALL of them, about ALL of them being sub-humans, etc. … by people (Beth, Penny, Bob [my little Dawah-Ghost], Gilian/Ge et al. come to mind) who claim on their profiles to defend Christian/Western values, human rights, the oppressed and disenfranchised?! I get it: they forgot to add on their profile page … ‘as long as they’re not Muslims’ …

Not that I would even think of asking the same … but just for the records: it would be nice for a change if they’d e.g. condemn Israel and all the Jews (isn’t this what’s always demanded when a Muslim commits something?! It must be condemned loud and a number of times by ALL Muslims!) for the recent killing without reason of the pregnant young woman and her little brother. I say for no reason because (Jewish) bystanders confirmed that they had no knives – something which is fashionable today in Israel: anyone who gets killed by the IDF … “had a knife” … and I have 2 pyramids to sell …

Wouldn’t it be a nice novelty if they’d condemn just once the continuous land and aquifer stealing by Israel in the West Bank, the daily humiliation, disenfranchisement, obstructing … in short: condemn loud and clear that Israel makes a normal life impossible for the occupied Christian and Muslim Palestinians?

What I often wonder when I read these upright fighters for Israel who declare to be upholding Christian/Western values and civilization: how come the plight of their Christian Palestinian brethrens doesn’t bother them an iota? They were massacred and/or expelled just like the Muslim Palestinians and suffer the very same under the cruel occupation of today. Yet this poses no problem for our “Christian” friends on C2 or in world politics especially not in the US, the (dis)honest broker.

It is estimated (see UK and UN archives) that at the time when Israel came into being in 1948 some 350’000 Christian Palestinians were in the holy land which equates to roughly 20 percent of the total population at the time. They constituted a vibrant and ancient community. Today the number of Christians in Israel and occupied Palestine are just over 2 percent of the entire population and the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to mass emigration. One wonders why?

We should also not forget that in the process of “judaizing” Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. May 17, 1948 (just 2 days after the creation of Israel!) saw one of the most spectacular attacks: the Armenian orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with some 100 mortar rounds by the Zionist gang from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. It further damaged St. Jacob’s Convent, the Archangel’s Convent and their churches, their 2 elementary schools as well as their libraries. 8 persons were killed and some 120 wounded. This is just one of the many examples which fly under the radars of everybody.

But as the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, the Reverend Riah Abu al-Assal explained once: “The Arab Palestinian Christians are part and parcel of the Arab Palestinian nation. We have the same history, the same culture, the same habits and the same hopes.” They can’t be detached from the struggle to liberate ALL Palestinian people from the Israeli military occupation.

We should also not forget that in the 1950s and ’60s, as the various factions that were to form the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) emerged, some of the most prominent militants were yet again Christian Palestinians. For instance, George Habash, a Greek Orthodox medical doctor from Al Lod, created the Arab Nationalists’ Movement and went on to found the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). Naif Hawatmeh, also Greek Orthodox, from Al Salt, founded and headed the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP). Among those better regarded in the West is Dr. Hannan Ashrawi, also a Christian.

We may also recall ”The Kairos Palestine Document 2009” which is a paper issued by prominent Christian leaders (church and lay people) and which – among other things – they called for a boycott of Israel. Section 7 reads: “…Therefore, we call for a response to what the civil and religious institutions have proposed, as mentioned earlier: the beginning of a system of economic sanctions and boycott to be applied against Israel. We repeat once again that this is not revenge but rather a serious action in order to reach a just and definitive peace that will put an end to Israeli occupation of Palestinian and other Arab territories and will guarantee security and peace for all.”. It states that isolation of Israel will cause pressure on Israel to abolish all of what it labels as “apartheid laws” that discriminate against Palestinians and non-Jews.

That much for the forgotten Christian Palestinians in the holy land … for whom none of our upright (Christian value defenders and) fighters would even utter a word …. It can be assumed that our Care2 Christian Zionists don’t want to jeopardize Armageddon and the second coming of Christ … like their fellow Christian Zionists! After all don’t they believe that without Israel’s continuous expansion there can be no redemption and are, therefore, more than willing to ignore the suffering of their fellow Christian brethrens at the hands of Israel (?!).

Yet – despite these facts – we’re forced to buy into the Zionist narrative that it’s all about religion; Judaism vs Islam … Sadly, those who help cementing this myth in place are the devout Christians themselves … at the expense of their fellow Christians. Collateral damage or as Madeleine Albright said: “The prize was worth it!”.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 1:55 pm

I just love it, John de Avalon, the way you toss all kind of events into one bowl, mix it, and present it as a new "mixed salad" aka "history re-written" to fit the Zionist narrative ... which has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is wrong ... by nobody less than the Zionists themselves.

As I always say: one can't pick-up the threads of history at a convenient and self-serving point, twist and form it to fit one's wishful thinking and present it as "fact". The truth always comes back to bite you - LOL.

Let's look for a moment at your (so often heard and refuted) statement: "After independence, the Arabs launched an all-out attack on Israel seeking to destroy the country and the people."

FACT is - supported by the IDF archives as well as Israeli historians - that long before the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionists launched an all out attack on the 46% remaining territory which was to form the State of Palestine. I know that you must have read about "Plan Dalet"; who hasn't?!

Plan Dalet was NOT initiated by a minority group as everyone knows today but it was the agreed policy and tactic of the leadership of Israel-to-be – can it be that they didn't teach this during Hasbara classes?

I refer again to “The History of the Palmach” which details the efforts made to attack and terrorize the Palestinian Arabs (Christians and Muslims alike) and secure even more territory. With respect to "Plan Dalet" we read:

"… control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).

1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948
2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948
3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948
4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948
5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948
6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948
7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948
8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948
9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948
10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948
11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948
12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948
13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948

The operations 1-8 indicate attacks and massacres carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state-to-be. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.

The following is an incomplete list of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and BEFORE the Arab forces entered Palestine:

- Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)
- Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)
- Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)
- Salameh (1 March 1948)
- Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)
- Qana (13 March 1948)
- Qastal (4 April 1948)
- Deir Yassin (9 April 1948) - note the irony that Vad Yashem (the Holocaust memorial) is built within stone throw of this best known massacre on the Palestinians
- Lajjun (15 April 1948)
- Saris (17 April 1948)
- Tiberias (20 April 1948)
- Haifa (22 April 1948)
- Jerusalem (25 April 1948)
- Jaffa (26 April 1948)
- Acre (27 April 1948)
- Jerusalem (1 May 1948)
- Safad (7 May 1948)
- Beisan (9 May 1948).

Further we read in Benny Morris’ "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949” that on 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha ... The village was destroyed that night ... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April ... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of … depopulated Arab villages were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable."

"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

“The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

“Fighting continued, almost all of it WITHIN [Emphasis added] the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

We should also not forget that Jordan's King Abdullah promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified.

That's that much with respect to historical inaccuracy and attempt to mislead …

This is exactly one of the reasons why I very seldom engage anymore in futile discussions with trolls and hasbaratchiks.

Q.E.D.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 2:04 pm

John W. - instead of playing the "insulted" card why don't you explain to me (or to us) which ones of the above listed "Christian/Western values" you defend? Or are you still doing some soul-searching?

I would appreciate if you'd point out where I insulted you or anyone else in order for me to apologize if necessary. Or is it more like what John de Avalon threw into the discussion without coming forward with any supporting evidence ... that I try to "hide embarrassing thruths" ... LOL!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 2:07 pm

John W. - or could it be that you take issue with the fact that I was holding the mirror to your face regarding you being a supremacist?! I thought it necessary and very befitting as you deemed it necessary to label feminists as supremacists.

One shouldn't throw with stones if one sits in a house of glass ...

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 2:29 pm

John de Avalon - this is just one small example of how reality was in those days.

January – March 1948 (from a previous posting of mine in another thread on Care2)

The attack on a Palestinian civilian bus travelling from Haifa to Acre on 5 January 1948, proves that Zionist terrorists are not a different “kind of people” than the rest of us …

Likewise, the Zionist terrorists who attacked the Hebron bus on the Jerusalem Road seven days after that, wounding one Palestinian ;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the No.5 bus in Elijah Street, Haifa, three days later, killing one Palestinian and wounding eight others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the No.4 bus to Haifa the same day, wounding four Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked an Arab bus entering Jerusalem two days later, killing one Palestinian;

Or the Zionist terrorists who ambushed farm labourers riding a passenger truck to work in Yazur five days later, killing three Palestinians and wounding twelve;

Or the Zionist terrorists who bombed the Ramle bus as it made a stop at As Safiriya three days later, killing one and wounding two Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the No.22 bus on the Bethlehem Road to Jerusalem the following day;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the bus to Jaffa near Miqve Israel two days later, killing one Palestinian and wounding three others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the Haifa bus on the road from Tel Aviv three days later, killing two Palestinians and wounding eight others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the No.6 bus near Tall Waqiya the following day, killing three Palestinians and wounding one other;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the bus from Kafr Yasif near Khirbet Al Aiyadiya the day after that, seriously wounding two Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the bus travelling through Deir Muheisin two days later, wounding five Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the Ramle bus on the road to Aqir three days later, killing one Palestinian and wounding two others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked a passenger truck transporting farmers home from the cattle market at Petah Tiqvah three days later, killing seven Palestinians and wounding five;

Or the Zionist terrorists who shot at the No.6 bus from Talpoith to Meqor Haim two days later, wounding three Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the bus travelling through Nabi Yusha the same day, killing one Palestinian and wounding another;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the bus to Safad also on the same day, killing five Palestinians and seriously wounding another four;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the bus travelling through Miqve, south of Tel Aviv, the following day, wounding four Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who threw a bomb into a bus at Ramle the day after that, wounding four Palestinians, then opened fire on the remaining passengers, wounding another three;

Or the Zionist terrorists who opened fire on the No.21 bus from Jerusalem to Bethlehem five days later, wounding five Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked the bus from Lydda to Rarn el Aqir near Kefar Bilu the following day, wounding five Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who fired on the bus from Jaffa to Ramle two days later, wounding two Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked a bus near Beit Jirja the following day, killing three Palestinians and seriously wounding two others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the No.45 (Jerusalem-Ramallah) bus near Neve Ya’acov the day after that, wounding at least three Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who the same day attacked a bus travelling along the Bethlehem Road in Jerusalem, seriously wounding two Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who also on the same day attacked the No.6 bus on the road from Haifa to Nazareth, killing one Palestinian and seriously wounding another;

Or the Zionist terrorist who, still on 24 February 1948, attacked the No.4 bus near St John’s Ophthalmic Hospital in Jerusalem, killing one Palestinian and wounding three more;

Or the Zionist terrorists who, in the fifth terror attack on Palestinian buses in a single day, fired on a bus travelling the Jerusalem-Bethlehem Road, wounding one Palestinian;

Or the Zionist terrorists who opened fire on a passenger truck near Bir El Hilu on the Jaffa-Jerusalem Road two days later, killing two Palestinians and wounding five others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who fired on a bus near Bab el Wad on the Jaffa-Jerusalem Road three days later, wounding four Palestinians and one Russian;

Or the Zionist terrorists who fired on the bus travelling the Ramallah-Latrun Road five days later;

Or the Zionist terrorists who attacked two Arab buses the next day near Jaba on the Haifa Road, killing one Palestinian and wounding three others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who opened fire on a bus travelling the Athlit-Haifa Road near Mazar, later that same day;

Or the Zionist terrorists who opened fire on a bus travelling through Beit Shugelman on the Jaffa-Jerusalem road two days later, wounding one Palestinian and one Egyptian;

Or the Zionist terrorists who, one week later, fired on the No.1 bus from Nazareth as it reached Iraq Street, Haifa, killing one Palestinian and seriously wounding another;

Or the Zionist terrorists who detonated a bomb on the Safad-Acre Road as the bus to Safad was passing five days later, killing one Palestinian and wounding two others;

Or the Zionist terrorists who fired from Neve Ya’acov Jewish colony at the Jaffa-Jerusalem bus three days later, killing one Greek and two Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who firebombed a Nazareth Bus Company bus as it approached Haifa two days later, killing one Palestinian and wounding nine Palestinians and one Syrian;

Or the Zionist terrorists who blew up the bus to Beit Hanoun the same day with a landmine detonated near Yad Mordechai, killing one Palestinian and wounding one other;

Or the Zionist terrorists who ambushed a bus at the junction of Allenby Road and Freres Street in Haifa later that same day, wounding three Palestinians;

Or the Zionist terrorists who, in the fourth terror attack on a Palestinian bus in a single day (24 March 1948) fired from Neve Ya’acov Jewish colony on two buses travelling along the Jerusalem-Nablus Road …

…etc…
…etc…

So while it is undeniably terrible that the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades would deliberately target civilian passengers on an Israeli bus, the men who murdered Lior Azulai, Nathaniel Havshush, Bnayahu Jonathan Zuckerman, Rahamiam Rami Duga, Yaffa Ben-Shimol, Ilan Avisedris, Yehuda Haim and Yuval Ozana in that attack are not a different “kind of people” from you or me or the soon-to-be-Israelis who unloaded Ibrahim Mohammed Ahmed El Haj, Mahmoud Hassan Attieh, Saleh Mohammed Suleiman, Abdul Fattah Hussein, Mahmoud Mustafa Khalil, Mohammed Ali Eissa, and Hassan Mohammed Eissa from a Palestinian truck in February 1948, lined them up in an orange grove and murdered them.

10 FEBRUARY 1948 Lydda. 1700 hours, Petah Tiqvah. A party of twelve Arabs from Et Tira village (Tulkarm Sub-District) returning in a truck from selling cattle in the Petah Tiqvah area, was stopped by a large number of Jews in a truck near 120 M.U. Royal Air Force Camp, Ras El Ein. The Arabs were made to alight from their vehicle and were taken into the nearby orange grove of Abu Lebban from which firing was subsequently heard. Jews were then seen to leave the grove and enter the truck which was driven away.

The following dead and wounded Arabs were taken to Jaffa Government Hospital and the Royal Air Force Camp: Dead - Ibrahim Mohammed Ahmed El Haj (20); Mahmoud Hassan Attieh (30); Saleh Mohammed Suleiman (18); Abdul Fattah Hussein (37); Mahmoud Mustafa Khalil (42); Mohammed Ali Eissa (48); Hassan Mohammed Eissa (42). Injured (believed seriously) - Ahmed Ibrahim Abdulla (24); Lutfi Yassin Khal (25); Shehadi Abdul Wahab (27); Mustafa Saleh Kassim (23); Ahmed Hassan Saleh (70).

6 MARCH 1948 Jewish terrorists killed five Arabs and severely damaged three buildings by firing three inch mortar shells into the Arab business district in the harbour area of Haifa. The firing came from Hadar HaCarmel, an all-Jewish business and residential section. (From United Nations Security Council Official Records, Supplements for 1948 – Palestine)

5 JANUARY 1948 Haganah terrorists made a most barbarous attack at one o'clock in the early morning of Monday, 5 January 1948, at the Semiramis hotel in the Katamon section of Jerusalem, killing innocent people and wounding many. The Jewish Agency terrorist forces blasted the entrance to the hotel by a small bomb and then placed bombs in the basement of the building. As a result of the explosions, the whole building collapsed with its residents. As the terrorists withdrew, they started shooting at the houses in the neighborhood.

Those killed were: Subhi El-Taher, Moslem; Mary Masoud, Christian; Georgette Khoury, Christian; Abas Awad, Moslem; Nazira Lorenzo, Christian; Mary Lorenzo, Christian; Mohammed Saleh Ahmed, Moslem; Ashur Abed El Razik, Moslem; Ismail Abed El Aziz, Moslem; Ambeer Lorenzo, Christian; Raof Lorenzo, Christian; Abu Suwan, Christian family, seven members, husband, wife and five children. Beside those killed, 16 more were wounded, among them women and children. (From United Nations Security Council Official Records, Supplements for 1948 – Palestine)

18 FEBRUARY 1948 At 2:30 in the afternoon, an Irgun Z'vai Leumi terrorist disguised as an Arab and riding a donkey, arrived at the Ramleh vegetable market. The terrorist started to bargain for some vegetables from a woman vendor, paid her the price and asked her to look after his donkey and the basket on its back, while the terrorist left, saying he was going to buy some meat from an adjacent market.

In less than ten minutes the mines and high explosives in the basket exploded killing 12 and wounding 43 persons. Among the killed were four children less than ten years of age and four less than fourteen. (From United Nations Security Council Official Records, Supplements for 1948 – Palestine)

Sources:

CO 537/3855 and CO 537/3856: Confidential reports from the British Criminal Investigation Dept (C.I.D.) to the U.K. Colonial Office on Outrages in Palestine, 1947-48 and Feb-Mar 1948.

WO 261/573: Confidential quarterly reports from British Army H.Q. in Palestine to the U.K. War Office, Jan-Mar 1948.

WO 275/64: Confidential fortnightly newsletters from the H.Q. of the British Sixth Airborne Division in Palestine to the U.K. War Office, Mar 1947-May 1948.

CO 537/3857: Confidential reports from the British Criminal Investigation Dept (C.I.D.) to the U.K. Colonial Office on Outrages in Palestine, Mar-Apr 1948.

All the above reports are now declassified and open to the public at the U.K. National Archives in Kew, London.

~*~*~*~

Would it be cynical to say that the Palestinians learned well from the Zionists?

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 2:43 pm

If you so wish I can also give you a detailed list of the terrorist attacks by Jews in Palestine, as prepared for Dr. Ralph J. Bunche, UN Mediator for Palestine. The report is a compilation of all identified terrorist attacks on British, American and Arab individuals and entities from the assassination of the British Resident Minister in the Middle East on November 6, 1944 by members of the terrorist Jewish Stern gang to the assassination of Count Bernadotte on September 17, 1948 by members of this same gang of fanatics.

Just let me know ...

 

(0)
Monday May 2, 2016, 3:22 pm
Eleanora,

You already know that I don't support any kind of terrorism. Including Zionist terrorism. Especially against the UK.

You already know I'm not interested in apologetics from Islam.
Or do you want me to join Britain First?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 2, 2016, 4:33 pm

John W - I don't quite see where the "apologetics from Islam" fit but I hope you do ...

I don't want you to join anything or anyone ... I would appreciate you explaining yourself and the values that you support as you claim to support Western civilization and its values in light of my posting above of Sunday May 1, 2016, 4:40 pm. A fair question I believe.

But if you feel too threatened by the prospect of having to defend your "civilization and its values" in light of the above facts ...
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 2, 2016, 11:45 pm
Eleonora - the give away :" I don't support any kind of terrorism. Including Zionist terrorism. Especially against the UK. "

Who were occupiers at that time .....

Your research - with sources - merits a Milky Way - *************************************************

And those johns have deviated far from the important focus of this thread - common ground in recognition of the value of BDS as a non-violent strategy. The real kick-start to the Irish peace movement came with the Irish women .... Here's a parallel in Palestine & Israel .... and our "peace-loving" friends on C2NN use it as a base for aggression!!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday May 3, 2016, 1:34 pm
Recognition of BDS as a non-violent strategy WHEN the strategy of Britain as an Empire builder over hundreds of years has been utterly unhealthy, violent, and despicable.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday May 3, 2016, 4:29 pm

Evelyn and Ros - can't send you another star as I just did ;-).

Sorry for having allowed them to divert and stray away from the subject at hand, Evelyn. I guess I just had my fill yesterday with endless propaganda and bullying after having read countless articles about the "anti-Semitism" of reputable people who suddenly dared to stand in the way in England.

I do have a minor unease with people who have the audacity to hurl all kind of insults and false history at us, accuse us of all kind of "doings", claim to stand up to defend Western civilization and values, claim to uphold human rights and adherence to a peaceful religion ... but don't have the guts to come clean when confronted with uncomfortable truths and facts. Add to that their strong support of the last colonialist enterprise on the back and at the expense of not just the indigenous people of the land but on the back and at the expense of the whole region - something which can blow-up any moment into WWIII.

Whether the Palestinians protest violently or peacefully against the theft of their lands and the killing of their people - they're always in the wrong!

If one dares to criticize Israel or extremist Jews one is accused of being an anti-Semite, Holocaust denier or a terrorist … or all of the above. If one asks: “Why?” one gets usually the answer: “Because I say so!” – no evidence, no proof, no nothing.

I do often wonder – if it weren’t for the bullying by Israel and the Zionist lobbies worldwide with “anti-Semitism, Holocaust denier and terrorist” and effectively silencing almost all political leaders into compliance with and acceptance of their crimes against humanity … how would Israel defend and justify its policy within Israel and in the Occupied Territories?

We are confronted with such ludicrous statements like: "'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ." Oh yes?

Who is the party that does everything possible to keep the status quo?

Who is the peace-seeking party who sabotages each and every possibility that peace might be one day within reach?

How many peace offers have the Palestinians, the Arab World and the West already presented and each one was thrown out either immediately by Israel or has been sabotaged and made a farce of by Israel like the Oslo Accord as example?

Ops - I almost forget this most generous and only offer ever coming from the State who yearns for peace and demands compromise after compromise from the people it oppresses and steals their lands from:

Myth of Israel’s ‘generous offer’ damages truth, peace

A Flash Presentation of Barak's "Generous Offers"

Sorry for another deviation, Evelyn, but it is long overdue that this is said loud and clear and I shall keep repeating it. Enough pussy-footing around.
 

fly bird (26)
Saturday May 7, 2016, 8:04 pm
John's talk of Hamas is just red herring..

the problem, is the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.

End the occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine-siege of Gaza!

END all U.S. 'military' aid to Israel, including all U.S. 'loans' - unguaranteed 'loans'.. that will never be paid back.

No $5-5 Billion to Israel. Send foreign aid to countries that need it!
 

fly bird (26)
Saturday May 7, 2016, 8:06 pm
@John De Avalon
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 7:46 am
Jess b,
If the Palestinians put down their arms, there would be peace.
If Israel put down her arms, there would be no more Israel.
Benjamin Netanyahu.

Israel would not have to occupy any territory if it wasn't for the terrorist activities of Hamas.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 9:09 am
Oh - so that's why they've been occupying territory (villages etc) since 40 years before Hamas existed?
Hasbara logic is SO logical

(Before quoting sound bites for the media - compare also the power of arms .... and the relative mortal impact .... it does make for some doubt about the truth of such narrative .......)
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 11:30 am
Evelyn,
I should have included the PLO too.

I do find it amusing how you try to use the term,"Hasbara" as an insult.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 12:13 pm

Evelyn - I highly recommend you refrain from pointing out such insignificant details - LOL.

But while at it ... may I disregard my own words and dare to point out another little detail? The PLO was founded in 1964 while Israel illegally occupies Palestinian land since late 1947 when Plan Dalet was set in motion to add another 22% of Palestinian land to the 56% Palestinian territory they got from the UN. These 22% land theft was BEFORE the official declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948. Actually - the land theft continues unabated until this very moment.

Under which pretext? How does anyone justify such acts today while at the same time insisting to be "the only democracy in the Middle East"?

 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 1:22 pm
Eleonora,

I do hope you noted that I didn't jump on Evelyn for her reply.
I would argue that the land took before 1964, but after 1947 was justified by the right of reparation.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 4:45 pm

John - I did note that; why should you jump on her anyway?

"... but after 1947 was justified by the right of reparation." You lost me here ... totally. Germany is the country which has been and still is bleeding billions for the atrocities committed - but only towards the Jews. The other victims got Zero, Zilch, Nothing. Oh no - not correct; some Roma families got DM 520.00 in reparation ...

Why do the Palestinians in the Middle East - or anyone else other than Germany - have to pay reparation to a religious group of people in and from Europe who got persecuted by European Christians? Any explanation? Would be interesting to read.

 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 4:56 pm
Eleonora,
I will use my own country as an example of Repartition. We pay more per capita than any country in foreign aid. That's repartitions. That's a fair way of doing things. We gave billions of aid to India (for example.)

Oh, and technically the term Palestinian means Jewish not Arab. Try and do some historically research.
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 5:04 pm
Oh, please explain why Turkey doesn't have to pay repartitions to Armenia or Romania?
Or Palestine for that matter....
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 5:10 pm
Oh, I forgot to add. Israel pays for Palestinians to get medical treatment, food, and water. Plus business investments, that mostly come from Israel. Arab countries just send them weapons; how does that help the women and children of Palestine?
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 11:15 pm
John, might your reference to Britain paying more foreign aid out, have anything to do with our deluded notion that as an empire controlling these vast regions, such as India, we have a bit of a responsibility to maintain and upkeep.

Here's where your politics and religion are at odds, but then, that's also reliant on your literal understanding and nothing deeper than.
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 11:51 pm
Darren,
The Empire brought peace and stability to the countries under it's control. It wasn't perfect, and mistakes were made. But on the whole, it was a force for good in the world.
My only difficulty was that Britain departed from Christendom and the authority of the Pope. However, the Church of England is still in it's sacrament of ordination tied to the Pope.
 

(0)
Sunday May 8, 2016, 11:55 pm
Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:29 am

Dear John W. – it’s nice to read you early in the morning. Such kind of thinking like yours is what makes my day!

Let’s take a tiny step back in this thread and discussion with you.

On Sunday May 1, 2016, 4:40 pm I asked you some genuine questions; especially I was curious to learn which ones of the Western values (aka civilization) you defend. You keep dodging the issue in staying silent … only to come back and putting more and non-relevant questions forward – on top of it you give rather warped examples trying to justify the unjustifiable and trying to defend the indefensible. Do such attempts at diverting the issue further really have place in a sincere discussion? I think not.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:29 am

Your answer of Sunday May 8, 2016, 4:56 pm is absolutely irrelevant in the context of reparations payable to Jews who suffered under the Nazi regime. BUT going by your logic you displayed in your answer of Sunday May 8, 2016, 1:22 pm … what do you think if we would give the Roma … say … England as a compensation for the same atrocities they suffered under Hitler as did the Jews? By your logic this would be perfectly correct … the Jews get Palestine as a compensation for Hitler’s atrocities (although they were “given” it unlawfully already in 1917 … guess the British had a feeling for what’s coming?!) and the Roma get England.

What do you suggest we give the Catholic Priests, the Handicapped, the Unionists, the Socialists and not to forget the Homosexuals? Which countries do you feel would be appropriate as reparation for the atrocities committed against them under the Hitler regime?

As for the “technical part” in your answer – may I just repost from an answer I gave yesterday?

“"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."

And with respect to the present-day Palestinians' ancestral heritage we read:
"But all these different peoples who had come to Canaan were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree ... And that parent tree was Canaanite ... The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."”

One of our staunchest supporters of the Zionist colonial enterprise remarked once that the Arabs had “plopped themselves in the living room” (in Palestine) totally ignoring the fact that the Hebrews of those days (not the Jews of today) did the very same: they plopped themselves in the living room of Canaan and killed, maimed and/or expelled the indigenous people of those days who had lived there already and who – btw – built Jerusalem. In other words: what we see today done by the Zionists is just a repeat of the old history. Nothing has changed.

Talking about learning and doing some historical research – maybe you should practice what you preach?

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:30 am


As for your posting of Sunday May 8, 2016, 5:04 pm – I assume this is a Freud’ian slip and you meant reparation as this is what we’re talking about? If so – Turkey is not what we’re discussing here … and what kind of reparation should the Palestinians pay to whom? Israel? For what? – that Israel keeps stealing their land? Or did you mean “loss repartition” which would be a bit a different issue? For now let’s stick to the reparation issue, shall we?

As for your posting of Sunday May 8, 2016, 5:10 pm – this is basically an insult to my intelligence, my dear John. Yet – maybe you should do some research and check out the obligations an occupying power has according to International Laws and Conventions?! Just a basic info: Israel has not invested one single New Shekel in the Occupied Territories FOR the wellbeing of the occupied people. The hell they will ever do this! The opposite is the case: it loots as much as it can like arable land and aquifers.

Unless … unless … you call the separation wall and the hundreds of check points investments for the Palestinian’s wellbeing …

What Israel does is investing BILLIONS of US tax payers money which also goes to the Settlement Enterprise and their production facilities … which by the way is also forbidden under International Law. Remember? An occupying power should not transfer/settle its own people in land which is unlawfully occupied by them? But I have a feeling that these are details – important as they may be – which don’t bother you really, am I right?

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:30 am


With this statement you put the icing on the cake, John! I sent you a Green Star for one of the most outrageous statements I’ve read in a while.

“The Empire brought peace and stability to the countries under it's control.”

Let me make this clear upfront: ALL empires had one thing only in mind – to enrich themselves at the expense of the people it oppressed/s and colonized/s.

Be it the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire and any and all in between, before and after. We see this very well played out today with the American Empire. A showcase example of what Empire means and stands for: oppressing other people and manipulating its own to hate the “other”, pitting the occupied against each other, creating “terrorists” (Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, ISIS et al.) which they can “fight against” … all a fig leaf and disguise to steal their resources and land (in the case of Israel).

Let’s see what the British Empire understood under the term “peace and stability” as you put it so nicely:

The Bengal Famine: How the British engineered the worst genocide in human history for profit

Visit the website – I’m sure you’d enjoy the pictures of “peace and stability” brought by the British Empire! To say that this was one of the “mistakes” it made would be stretching it a bit too far even by your standard, wouldn’t you say? Similar “mistakes” were made by other empires but we’re talking about the British one, don’t we?

The article states:

I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.”
Winston Churchill

The British had a ruthless economic agenda when it came to operating in India and that did not include empathy for native citizens. Under the British Raj, India suffered countless famines. But the worst hit was Bengal. The first of these was in 1770, followed by severe ones in 1783, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1897 and lastly 1943-44. Previously, when famines had hit the country, indigenous rulers were quick with useful responses to avert major disasters. After the advent of the British, most of the famines were a consequence of monsoonal delays along with the exploitation of the country’s natural resources by the British for their own financial gain. Yet they did little to acknowledge the havoc these actions wrought. If anything, they were irritated at the inconveniences in taxing the famines brought about.

The first of these famines was in 1770 and was ghastly brutal. The first signs indicating the coming of such a huge famine manifested in 1769 and the famine itself went on till 1773. It killed approximately 10 million people, millions more than the Jews incarcerated during the Second World War. It wiped out one third the population of Bengal. John Fiske, in his book “The Unseen World”, wrote that the famine of 1770 in Bengal was far deadlier than the Black Plague that terrorized Europe in the fourteenth century. Under the Mughal rule, peasants were required to pay a tribute of 10-15 per cent of their cash harvest. This ensured a comfortable treasury for the rulers and a wide net of safety for the peasants in case the weather did not hold for future harvests. In 1765 the Treaty of Allahabad was signed and East India Company took over the task of collecting the tributes from the then Mughal emperor Shah Alam II. Overnight the tributes, the British insisted on calling them tributes and not taxes for reasons of suppressing rebellion, increased to 50 percent. The peasants were not even aware that the money had changed hands. They paid, still believing that it went to the Emperor.

Partial failure of crop was quite a regular occurrence in the Indian peasant’s life. That is why the surplus stock, which remained after paying the tributes, was so important to their livelihood. But with the increased taxation, this surplus deteriorated rapidly. When partial failure of crops came in 1768, this safety net was no longer in place. The rains of 1769 were dismal and herein the first signs of the terrible draught began to appear. The famine occurred mainly in the modern states of West Bengal and Bihar but also hit Orissa, Jharkhand and Bangladesh. Bengal was, of course, the worst hit. Among the worst affected areas were Birbum and Murshidabad in Bengal. Thousands depopulated the area in hopes of finding sustenance elsewhere, only to die of starvation later on. Those who stayed on perished nonetheless. Huge acres of farmland were abandoned. Wilderness started to thrive here, resulting in deep and inhabitable jungle areas. Tirhut, Champaran and Bettiah in Bihar were similarly affected in Bihar.

Prior to this, whenever the possibility of a famine had emerged, the Indian rulers would waive their taxes and see compensatory measures, such as irrigation, instituted to provide as much relief as possible to the stricken farmers. The colonial rulers continued to ignore any warnings that came their way regarding the famine, although starvation had set in from early 1770. Then the deaths started in 1771. That year, the company raised the land tax to 60 per cent in order to recompense themselves for the lost lives of so many peasants. Fewer peasants resulted in less crops that in turn meant less revenue. Hence the ones who did not yet succumb to the famine had to pay double the tax so as to ensure that the British treasury did not suffer any losses during this travesty.

After taking over from the Mughal rulers, the British had issued widespread orders for cash crops to be cultivated. These were intended to be exported. Thus farmers who were used to growing paddy and vegetables were now being forced to cultivate indigo, poppy and other such items that yielded a high market value for them but could be of no relief to a population starved of food. There was no backup of edible crops in case of a famine. The natural causes that had contributed to the draught were commonplace. It was the single minded motive for profit that wrought about the devastating consequences. No relief measure was provided for those affected. Rather, as mentioned above, taxation was increased to make up for any shortfall in revenue. What is more ironic is that the East India Company generated a profited higher in 1771 than they did in 1768.

Although the starved populace of Bengal did not know it yet, this was just the first of the umpteen famines, caused solely by the motive for profit, that was to slash across the country side. Although all these massacres were deadly in their own right, the deadliest one to occur after 1771 was in 1943 when three million people died and others resorted to eating grass and human flesh in order to survive.

Winston Churchill, the hallowed British War prime minister who saved Europe from a monster like Hitler was disturbingly callous about the roaring famine that was swallowing Bengal’s population. He casually diverted the supplies of medical aid and food that was being dispatched to the starving victims to the already well supplied soldiers of Europe. When entreated upon he said, “Famine or no famine, Indians will breed like rabbits.” The Delhi Government sent a telegram painting to him a picture of the horrible devastation and the number of people who had died. His only response was, “Then why hasn’t Gandhi died yet?”

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 3:10 am

BTW – John ... does it come as a surprise to you that W. Churchill wanted to and gave the OK to gas the Kurds in Iraq in 1919? “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes” said the heroic man. The Empire bringing peace and stability again?

Mr. Churchill also stated in his July 1944 memo to his chief of staff Gen. Hastings Ismay: "It is absurd to consider morality on this topic when everybody used it [gas] in the last war without a word of complaint from the moralists or the Church. On the other hand, in the last war the bombing of open cities was regarded as forbidden. Now everybody does it as a matter of course. It is simply a question of fashion changing as she does between long and short skirts for women." … “"I want a cold-blooded calculation made as to how it would pay to use poison gas ... One really must not be bound within silly conventions of the mind whether they be those that ruled in the last war or those in reverse which rule in this." … “It may be several weeks or even months before I shall ask you to drench Germany with poison gas, and if we do it, let us do it one hundred per cent. In the meantime, I want the matter studied in cold blood by sensible people and not by the particular set of psalm-singing uniformed defeatists which one runs across now here now here now there."

NB – I love his keeping up with the fashion …

From that famous speech of Mr. Winston Churchill:

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government - every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of the Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and the oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."

You know, John - my Dad (R.I.P.) was a very wise man. He instilled in us kids that we should never form an opinion without undergoing the painful process of thinking. I always believed - and still do! - that he's right!

Reading Mr. Winston Churchill famous speech ... why do the Palestinians NOT have the same right to fight for their homeland? Any logical reason for it, John?

 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 9, 2016, 4:11 am
All that deserves thousands of stars, Eleonora!
He has such a strangely blinkered view of history .... it's not even the British history taught in schools, as far as I know! My 11 year old great nephew, living in the UK, has a more balanced view of of British Imperial History!! And that, despite having family ties to people who worked for Britain in the Princely States (not the Raj).

Your pointing out of Indian Stately rulers' responsibilities paralleled my thinking - I remembered the Mutiny (such peacefulness brought by troops & authorities who didn't consider the importance of local values & traditions!!) But I also thought of the Bara Imambara in Lucknow - the world's first "Food For Work" programme, initiated in the 1780s by the Nawab of Awadh as a means of enabling the people to cope in the face of a major famine ...... The Brits didn't come up with such plans, nor even such an economic philosophy, for another 150 years (when Keynes developed such thinking).

Eleonora - don't forget all that investment in a road network across the West Bank .... Oh, yes, it is for Jews only, of course!! And support for developing communities & industries .... Oh, yes, those are the (illegal) settlements (for Jews only) & for settlers .... - limited access for non-Jews, even as workers (because checkpoints make reliable & timely reaching work difficult, and they don't have the same protection under Israeli Labour Laws) ..... Of course, non-settlement building of enterprises & economic activity requires authorisation by the Occupying Authorities - rarely given .... and unauthorised construction is torn down. Even unauthorised developing of dairy herds is liable to be terminated "threat to security"!! (if the IDF can find the cows ... see the Wanted 18 .... The Wanted 18 (Teaser))
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 5:03 am
We shouldn’t ignore our colonial history, says Jeremy Paxman, on the eve of his BBC series.

The history of the British empire is full of amazing stories of adventure, of war, of greed and plunder, cruelty and courage, heroism and low cunning. It explains so much about who we are now, yet we increasingly pretend it never happened.

It’s nothing short of a scandal that this history is not taught in schools. It may be unfashionable to say so, but building, securing and running an empire was the biggest international preoccupation of this country for generations.

Imperial history explains both why Britain has a seat on the UN Security Council and the readiness of British prime ministers to commit British troops to overseas wars.

But it goes much further, too. The empire reshaped our education system and redefined how we think of ourselves. It was the trigger for much post-war immigration, and anything that changes the very genetic make-up of the population can hardly be dismissed as superficial.
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 5:06 am
The problem is that there seems to have been a set of ready-to-wear prejudices handed out. According to the conventional view, there is only one way to look at the British empire: it was A Thoroughly Bad Thing. Sure, no one wants to be colonised and ruled by foreigners. But the picture is far more complicated than that. Of course there were many things that were bad. But there were others that were rather admirable.

The slave trade really was unforgivable. The 19th-century wars fought to force the Chinese to allow Scottish merchants to ship opium into the country were unconscionable (if you want an example of cant, just look at the justifications given by the men who ran the trade).

But are we also to condemn the campaign to abolish slavery? Once the British had become the first European nation to wake up to its cruelties, they enforced an international ban on the trade. Hundreds of thousands of people were saved from slavery by the Royal Navy.

And what was so wrong with attempts to map Africa, to ban sati (the custom of burying widows when their husbands died) in India, to lay roads and railways, and drains, to make trade follow internationally agreed laws, to try to create a system of incorruptible administration?

Of course, it is all undermined by distasteful assumptions about how the British were somehow superior to those they colonised (“Winning first prize in the lottery of life,” as Cecil Rhodes put it), which is probably why we prefer not to think about it. But we can take some consolation from the fact that while the British empire was motivated by self‑interest, it claimed to aspire to nobler ambitions than many other empires. (The unluckiest Africans got colonised by Belgians.) And when the time came to leave, the British largely departed when asked to do so – unlike the French in places like Algeria.

Filming for our new BBC One series, Empire, took us all over the world in pursuit of astonishing stories – from India and Hong Kong to Malawi and Sudan, Canada and Jamaica. In many places we found imperial amnesia to have less of a grip than it has in Britain. One of the more astonishing conversations I had was with an elderly Kikuyu lady who had been one of the leaders of the bloody Mau Mau uprising, which the British put down brutally. We were chatting outside her hut on the side of Mount Kenya when, to my astonishment, she suddenly started talking about how the British had created schools and hospitals and Kenya should accept and appreciate her colonial past.

From the black-gowned lawyers bustling around the courts in Calcutta to the old general watching Egyptians playing croquet at the old British military sports club in Cairo, there were plenty of others ready to embrace a more sophisticated recognition of what the empire was and did.

I suppose the greatest imperial spectacle in Britain was Queen Victoria’s Diamond Jubilee. It’s appropriate that we look at the empire again in the year of Queen Elizabeth’s Jubilee. Victoria presided over more or less constant expansion, while our current queen has been there as the empire withered.

It now consists of a dozen-odd (some of them very odd) specks on the map, such as Pitcairn and Bermuda. In imperial terms, Queen Victoria was lucky, Elizabeth unlucky. The empire was always a monarchical thing, and our current queen is entitled to some of the credit for largely peaceful decolonisation and the creation and survival of that worthy institution, the Commonwealth, an institution most of the British don’t have the faintest idea about, but which countries like Mozambique and Rwanda – which weren’t part of the empire – have clamoured to join.

This empire we don’t like to talk about explains so much. When so many places on the map – Lake Victoria, Mount Everest – carry British names, it changes the way we regard the rest of the world. The empire helps to explain our problems with Europe and the fact that Scotland will soon stage a referendum on whether it wants to continue in a union with England.

Why the shock? Scotland only formally joined forces with England when its own attempts to found an empire – a crackpot scheme in central America – blew up in the country’s face and bankrupted it. Alex Salmond’s teenage years were spent watching countries tumbling out of the empire like crowds leaving a football match. Is it any wonder that he seeks a similar destiny for his own folk?

Perhaps if we acknowledged the vital role the empire played in our development, we’d understand ourselves a little better.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9085936/Jeremy-Paxman-Our-empire-was-an-amazing-thing.html
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 5:10 am
Ladies,
If Britain was so bad, why have so many of the countries we ruled over choose to stay with us in the Commonwealth?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 9, 2016, 7:02 am
"The Empire brought peace and stability to the countries under it's control. It wasn't perfect, and mistakes were made. But on the whole, it was a force for good in the world."

It did some good things, but also all too often also failed to integrate good indigenous points, especially in the Raj, where the Brits did little to integrate with indigenous people. There was considerable arrogance & sense of superiority among the Brits working in the Raj .... People even now don't realise how much Britain gained from its Empire (and I don't only mean "economic benefits") - but a sizeable number of the British people today are rejecting the on-going price of its colonisation - the immigrants who swallowed the idea that "Back Home" was Paradise, superior .... so they moved to the UK ..... where many tolerate conditions working for the British government services that the "Anglo-Saxons" don't accept.

The Empire "sold" the idea of British superiority, and many of the elite in the Commonwealth still believe in it.
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 1:57 pm
Britain's empire was far reaching and this created opportunities for those in various academic fields for exploration and research that wouldn't otherwise have materialised.

Humanities was one such field that particularly benefited - 'oriental' research especially so.  These foreign escapades brought a level of historical and cultural knowledge of our world that is unparalleled - if you want to teach or study history, Britain is the place to be, with the level of detail and nuance that you'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else and is almost certainly the birthplace of archaeology as a discipline!  The discoveries, archeological excavations and subsequent dissemination of this knowledge through books and papers have, moreover, been of global benefit and not just Britain's gain.

The British Museum in London is full of ancient 'souvenirs' collected during this period of global empire building.

http://www.quora.com/What-did-Britain-gain-from-colonisation-other-than-the-economic-benefits
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:03 pm

Hi John - while I read with interest the article you posted ... what about answering some of my questions rather than coming up constantly with new ones?

See my two consecutive postings of Monday May 9, 2016, 2:29 am
See my two consecutive postings of Monday May 9, 2016, 2:30 am
See my posting of Monday May 9, 2016, 3:10 am

Until then ...

Oh and don't get me started on slavery all over the world incl. England. They may have "campaign(ed) to abolish slavery" - meaning the slavery of those days ... only to allow and accept modern day slavery; be it in the sex industry, the garment industry, the food industry ...

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:12 pm

John - I just see your last posting.

"Britain's empire was far reaching and this created opportunities for those in various academic fields for exploration and research that wouldn't otherwise have materialised."

While you do have undoubtedly a point - THIS was NOT the purpose of empire building; this came as a side- and after-effect.

The purpose of empire building was and is expansionism; wanting what belongs to others; control; dominate; subjugate and basically enslave other people who have what empire wants.

"The British Museum in London is full of ancient 'souvenirs' collected during this period of global empire building."

Those 'souvenirs' as you call them where mainly stolen from the countries they invaded and should be correctly and rightfully returned to its legal owner country.

Very much like Jewish properties of those days are still returned to the "mostly rightful" Jewish owners/heirs. I say mostly rightful owners because in most cases they don't have to provide evidence if and how they acquired the claimed goods. "Documents destroyed during wartime" is normally an accepted statement.


 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:20 pm
Eleonora,

My last post was in reply to Evelyn's point about the British learning nothing from the countries under her rule.

I assume you mean the quotes from Winston Churchill?
I will do some reading and get back to you. I went to the library today and took out a book about him.

However, you have already provided the answers to your questions. I will pull them out and post them.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:24 pm

Evelyn - you sure are far more familiar and knowledgeable re your own history than I will ever be! But to try to sell Empire as something for which the occupied, oppressed and "raped" indigenous people should be thankful for ... sorry, that went even for me a tad too far.

The fact alone that the UN Sec Council with its 6 permanent members exists is an oxymoron if one wants to claim to adhere to democratic principles. All animals are equal ... comes to mind.

And if Empire left so readily when asked ... why did e.g. Gandhi have to struggle for so long?!

As for the investment in Palestine ... dear Evelyn, why is it that you have to point out all these Apartheid measures which are put in place in the Occupied Territories? All these niceties which only Jewish people can enjoy? Dr. Jeff Halper called it the "Matrix of Control" and it illustrates perfectly why there will never be a 2 state solution ... unless Israel is ready to totally dismantle first this Matrix of Control ... which it is not and will never be.

After all, don't some nice politicians push for the bill to go through which would annex all the settlements to Israel?

One heck of a peace-loving country I must admit ... and one heck of a complicit international political elite who stubbornly look the other way until the stealing of all the land is completed!
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:25 pm
Churchill also stated in his July 1944 memo to his chief of staff Gen. Hastings Ismay: "It is absurd to consider morality on this topic when everybody used it [gas] in the last war without a word of complaint from the moralists or the Church. On the other hand, in the last war the bombing of open cities was regarded as forbidden. Now everybody does it as a matter of course. It is simply a question of fashion changing as she does between long and short skirts for women." …

Note that moralists and the church didn't object.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:30 pm
So, you're learning from your reading of the history you choose to recognize then. . . ?
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:40 pm
As for the famines,
I will have to concede that you are right. I am tempted to divert the blame to the East India Tea Company. But I know full well they acted as privateers for the Empire.
Britain could have and should have done more to industrialise India and raised taxes (via cash crops etc) far beyond what was reasonable or sustainable.

As for the quelling of rebellion,
Total warfare in the long run is the most humane Carl von Clausewitz
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:40 pm

It's simple John - for your ease and convenience I summarized the postings where your answers to are outstanding in my comment above of Monday May 9, 2016, 2:03 pm.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:49 pm

I have to make a habit of refreshing the page first and then answer.

I respect you for your answer re famines, John!

And yes, the moralists and the Churches are usually the last ones - when everything is said and done - to raise their voices. It's always easier and safer that way. I do have my very valid reasons why I don't have it with institutionalized religions where the Churches stick out very unfavorably.

Having had as a side subject 2,5 years of psychology during my education let me answer Claus von Clausewitz's quote with one by Carl Jung:

"Through pride we are ever deceiving ourselves. But deep down below the surface of the average conscience a still, small voice says to us, something is out of tune."



 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 2:56 pm
Now Eleonora and Evelyn,
We get to the point I was aiming for.
Reread all you have both said about the British Empire (there are some shameful chapters which you both have rightly pointed out.)

Now does Israel behave like the British Empire did in the 19th century?

Absolutely not.
Israel could use gas, nuclear bombs, carpet bomb etc.
But instead they use precise targeting and phone ahead to warn civilians of attacks.

Israel, could use the Palestinians as slave labour, or indentured servants. They do not do that.

Israel could put a total blockade around Palestine and starve them into submission. They do not. I can buy nuts grown in Palestine (around fair trade product.) They do carry out checks and stop some types of supplies, and only do that to stop the materials being used for terrorism.

Israel provides medical care for injured Palestinians. Israel has been (ironically) the largest donor of humanitarian aid to Palestine.

Now do you see why I oppose the BDS movement and it's false claims that Israel acts tyrannically towards the Palestinians?
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 3:02 pm
Correction:

Is one of the largest donors of humanitarian aid
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 3:13 pm

Nope John. There's much to say about your last posting but it truly doesn't work that way in a discussion.

YOU first come clean on the above questions and then you get a solid answer from me. OK?

Fair is fair - and enough is enough, don't you think?!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 3:15 pm

I mean ... John ... aren't you the one who objected to the label "troll"? Then you shouldn't behave like one ;-).
 

(0)
Monday May 9, 2016, 3:31 pm
Eleonora,
Please give me a summaries of your questions, and I will answer them.
Oh, and it's a debating style I was taught (I forget what's it's called)
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 11:32 pm

Again John?? See my answer to you of Monday May 9, 2016, 2:03 pm ... I mean ... I spoon-fed you already enough - starting again allover would be like breastfeeding you ;-) - and I believe we both are too biologically advanced for that, wouldn't you think?!

I know what this "debating style" is called in my books and I'm almost certain that you want to hear it ...
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 9, 2016, 11:39 pm

Hihihi - meant to say ... and I'm almost certain that you DONT want to hear it ...
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday May 9, 2016, 11:41 pm
John clearly wasn't taught HOW to PAY ATTENTION, which is why he's rehashing, and asking you to restate what you've already stated.

He'll make a great candidate for UKIP or the Tories.
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 12:41 am
Darren & Eleonora,

I simply wanted clarification of what points Eleonora wished me to answer.
FYI Darren I have stood as a candidate for UKIP.

Eleonora, I honestly thought I had answered the questions you asked. I will go back and look.

Will you both keep in mind that I am using a smart phone and the writing is very small. I don't want to buy glasses just to read things on here. So I may miss things.
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 12:58 am
Eleonora,
Do you mean what Western values do I defend?

Freedom of or the right to
Speak/write
Assembly
Practice a religious faith (so long as it doesn't contradict the other values)
Family life
Private life
Due process, habeas corpus, an open and fair trial. Freedom from torture, cruel and unnatural treatment, etc
Also
Equality of the genders and race
Equality of opportunity

Separation of Church/Mosque/Temple/Synagogue and the State

On the last point if a state became 100% Catholic, then the last on the list could be nullified if the people so wished.

NB this is not an exhaustive list.
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 1:44 am
Clarification:

Practice a religious faith (so long as it doesn't contradict the other values) 

Catholic Cannon Law and Jewish Halakha Law only apply to members of those faiths. Unlike Sharia Law that claims jurisprudence over Muslims and Unbelievers equally. Furthermore, the latter is in flat contradiction to Western Values, unlike the former two.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 10:20 pm
Re comments of Monday May 9, 2016, 2:56 pm
Just for the record - Israel is FAR from the biggest donor for development aid - even when looked at in proportion to GNP - not even in the top 30!! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors)

And among the donors to Palestine - http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000592
not visible up top there either!!

"Out of the DAC countries, those which seemed to give the least in development assistance are the Slovak Republic donating 0.08% of its GNI, the Czech Republic, Greece and Slovenia at 0.11%, Korea at 0.13% and Spain at 0.14%. Including non-DAC countries, Israel and Latvia were the lowest, donating 0.07% and 0.08% respectively." http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/sep/09/foreign-aid-which-countries-are-the-most-generous

(Doesn't fit with hasbara narrative, does it!!)
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 10:35 pm
Well good morning to you Evelyn,
I see that you cannot read or pay attention either. Go back and read the next comment I posted. I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology!
I will have to go back and find the source (which included medical expenses.)

Oh, and FYI Wikipedia isn't a reliable source!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 10:40 pm
In the context of Britain's "wonderful" legacy ...

Did you realise that the infamous Administrative Detention laws in both Jordan & Israel are inherited from British rule?

In Israel, it allows imprisonment without any due legal process ... and although applicable to Israeli citizens irrespective of religious affiliation as well as Palestinians of the OPT - theoretically, those price tag crimes & other extremist settler crimes SHOULD come under this law - in practice, there is clear discrimination, with AD applied systematically to OPT Palestinians (including children), but seldom to Jewish Israelis - even for the burning alive of a family ... or the fire set to the Church of the Fishes ...

In Jordan, AD is most often applied to women fleeing threat of "honour crimes" - in principle, to provide protection, but the major problem there is that release depends on the family providing guarantees .... and the people who have to provide this are - the very family members who constitute the threat to the women! In 2007, a shelter was established, which should provide an alternative place of protection, but in practice, women are still being placed under AD for their protection, and getting caught by the lack of safe way out. There are a number of civil society & human rights groups working with government authorities to overcome this insane situation. (Thank you, Great Britain, for this legal heritage!)
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 10:49 pm
Here is one of my sources:

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html?mobile=yes
 

(0)
Tuesday May 10, 2016, 11:00 pm
Evelyn,
Before you start taking the moral high ground,
How about answering to those!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9767736/Thatchers-blistering-attack-on-French-over-Exocets-during-Falklands.html

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Vietnam&ved=0ahUKEwj4wJ2qq9HMAhWDHsAKHRl0DbQQFggrMAI&usg=AFQjCNF3-rfVYOOPEhX6gjaf7NtOULOusw&sig2=WnJHaRO9k0kO64FgrdYKPg (It Wikipedia, but you're fine with it as a source

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/algerians-massacred-in-paris

Also, I have already said that I'm ashamed of some of the things the British Empire did.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 1:22 am
What "high moral ground" John?
You will find nowhere in my comments or posts any "cocorico" about French abuses of its colonies' populations - I've not seen a context where it is relevant, but IMHO, French colonisation was even worse - put in a nutshell, an often quoted extract from education under French colonial rule "My ancestors the Gaulois were blond with blue eyes" ..... taught in schools across French Africa! The Brits at least didn't impose such rubbish ....

But who brought the British into this discussion (although it had little to do with BDS as a point of common agreement between some Israeli Jewish feminists & Palestinians)???? So why complain when you don't like replies?

As for your link about "humanitarian aid" ...
Yes, there are some aspects of human care - the medical field in particular - where Palestinians (and Syrians - Al Nusra members in particular) receive good medical care. This is particularly true when Israeli NGOs are part of the picture ....

But when one comes to some of the other points in the article - there is zapping of the fact that Israel controls most of the PA's monies, that international aid is channelled through Israel, that materials HAVE to be bought through Israeli suppliers (Donor & Palestinian aid for Israeli Trade) .... When a State ensures dependence of an occupied territory on the State's supplies, the "humanitarian" aspect of any gestures takes on different colours.

Fascinating -
(12) The United Nations Relief and Works Agency’s (UNRWA) sole focus is the Palestinian population. According to the June 2012 U.S. congressional report, U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians, since its inception in 1950 through 2011, the United States has given the agency over $4 billion dollars

WOW - in 61 years, the US has given UNRWA what it is giving Israel in ONE YEAR!!!!!!

Back to debts & unpaid bills - One could draw a parallel with FATA in the NW of Pakistan - dependent on the Pakistani utilities, receiving inadequate supplies - sometimes only 4 hours electricity per day - failing to pay the bills (not least because FATA can't run effective production units with such erratic supplies, & hence have adequate income ) ...The people of FATA are less oppressed than the Palestinians, but they fall below full rights in Pakistan & being effectively under Pakistani governance. But at least their leaders had some say in the setting up of FATA -

But that, too, is far from the topic of the story posted here

 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 2:24 pm
Here's an interesting comment posted on one of my articles:


Lynn Mark(0)

Wednesday May 11, 2016, 2:13 pm
The truth shines even from space. Jews have been the only ones to make the land green and thrive. 
It is land that defies "all gardening laws". 
Yet the merciless use whatever name you want. Want to deny the land to any Jew.They can`t stand that something anything may be holy or sacred and be given or promised to Jews. 

So it is very convenient to use the lies the land was "stolen" or unjustified.What rubbish .Ignoring the harsh cold facts that so many Jews were evicted or worse form "Arab" lands when many have been there longer than Islam has been! 
And that only under Jewish governing is the nation Israel is open to all who come in peace.What nation besides two? allow any Jews in?Explain why this is okay?

SENT |  flag as inapprop

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 2:54 pm
Don't forget your flag then, John.
 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 3:19 pm
I copied and pasted it. I forgot that automatically appears if you do that.
Don't be a complete dunce Darren.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:10 pm

John, I am still interested to hear your answer as to which countries (or part thereof) you’d give to the Roma, Homosexuals, Handicapped, Socialists, etc. as you’re so convinced that giving the Jews 56% of Palestine as reparation in 1947 was justified … despite the fact that it was not the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Palestinian who committed those Nazi atrocities but rather the Christian Europeans.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:12 pm

I prepared a longer answer in reply to your points, John, but while preparing my nightcap – which is “Karkadeh” (Hibiscus) with Cinnamon – it dawned on me that the fundamental difference between your outlook on life and mine is quite easy and can be summarized in one sentence:

While your belief – Western values are the only ones worth to defend – is a supremacist’s thinking I do absolutely believe in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 without any exception and for ALL people on this planet.

This comes before any religion – which may or may not be given by a God – or ideology; both “doctrines” which mankind is ever so good at twisting, warping and re-interpreting in order to suit ones personal greed and power hunger under the fig leaf of XYZ religion.

Why does my firm belief in the UDHR and support of basic human rights for ALL the people on this planet … make me an “anti-Semite”, Israel and/or Jew hater? I will never understand this concept!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:19 pm

Having said this I would like to nonetheless address your points re Western values, John.

You may want to get a bit more information from sources which don’t have ulterior motives in spreading selective information and/or half-truths and lies, John. It would do you good in broadening your outlook. For ease of reference I’ve put my comments under the “Western values” you defend.

As you seem to believe that anything “Islam” is absolutely incompatible with “Western values” let me tell you (and you can verify this independently) what the law says in Egypt (Islamic State) where I live for the time being.

Preamble:
What strikes me is the total absence in your list of
- defending human rights and dignity;
- the right to protection from oppression;
- freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state;
- the right to leave any country, incl. his own, and to return to his country;
- protection from arbitrary arrest, detention or exile;
- protection of the fundamental rights granted by the constitution/laws of the country;
- the right to own property and no arbitrary deprivation of private property;
- etc.

Wouldn’t you say that these too are Western values – or at least we claim them to be?


“Freedom of or the right to Speak/write”
West: You only have this freedom as long as it doesn’t concern anything relating to Israel/Jews/Zionists. That’s where your freedom stops; most European countries have strict laws today regulating what one can say in public and in America you can speak your mind openly in public but not only does the Zionist/Israeli lobby come after you but so does the “establishment”.
Egypt: Constitutionally we have this right and in practice too … provided … one doesn’t fear the possible consequences if the speech/writing doesn’t sit right with the authorities.

“Assembly”
What do you mean under the term “assembly”?

“Practice a religious faith (so long as it doesn't contradict the other values)”
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution and done in practice.

“Family life”
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution and done in practice.

“Private life”
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution and done in practice.

“Due process, habeas corpus, an open and fair trial. Freedom from torture, cruel and unnatural treatment, etc “
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution (the practice is different though when it comes to trials (depends who it is) and torture)
(Doesn’t it bother you, John, that In Israel there is no law against torture and the justification of its use is still mainstream?)

“Equality of the genders and race”
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution and as much applied (or not) as in the West.
The Cairo University has years were more than 50% of the students are females and we have a considerable high number of women in executive positions in various levels in the government as well as in the private sector. I'd love once to see how this compares to European countries.

“Equality of opportunity”
Egypt: This is granted by the constitution, details see above under “gender and race”

“Separation of Church/Mosque/Temple/Synagogue and the State”
Egypt: This is clearly defined in the constitution; e.g. political parties based on religious background are forbidden despite the fact that the State’s religion is Islam. Equally there are no religious slogans on our banknotes as opposed to e.g. America’s “In God We Trust”

“Unlike Sharia Law that claims jurisprudence over Muslims and Unbelievers equally. Furthermore, the latter is in flat contradiction to Western Values, unlike the former two.”

Really John … change your sources. To the best of my knowledge there are 5 or 6 of the 46 “Islamic” States that apply Sharia as the one and only source for jurisprudence. All other countries have a mix of Anglo-Saxon Laws, Napoleonic Code (civil and penal), and vestiges of colonial-era laws like Egypt or Libya which had the Italian and French civil law systems and Islamic law.

As a comparison: Israel has a mixture of English common law, British Mandate regulations, and, in personal matters, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim legal systems as well as some remnants from the Ottoman Empire (where it suits their land theft).

PS: Once you feel like it, John, why don't you check what Sharia really is all about? It's a bit more than what BNI, JW, Gatestone and related hate sites want you to believe.
 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:25 pm
Eleanora,
You are deliberately conflating two separate issues. Which is why I have ignored this up till now.
There are two types of repartition.

1) To restore financially damage caused to an enthic group (e.g. Jews, Roma.) This is usually in the form of money.
Homosexuals are not technically a group that meets the requirements.

2) To restore financial loss to a sovereign state caused by foreign aggression. This is usually in the form of land.

You will have to rewrite your question for me to be able to answer it logically.

I hadn't thought of adding cinnamon to hibiscus tea, I will have to try that.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:35 pm

John, looking through the list of values you defend ... maybe we should take the discussion one step back and define what values really are?

On a different note and reading the comment you copied by a certain "Lynn Mark" I do remember something - would you care to share the link to your obviously interesting article you posted?
 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:40 pm
Eleonora,

I am neither unaware of the Egyptian Constitution. Nor was unaware of secular states with predominantly muslim populations.
I have not said Sharia is all bad. It's condemnation of usury, lewd behaviour, and alcohol seem good to me. There are other good points in Sharia law, but my objection was upon whom it could be applied, not it's content per sa. Although there are definitely points I do object to.

To give an example from the UK. Halal meat was forced upon the shoppers of the UK as meat is sold and not labelled as such. Sikhs are forbidden to ear halal meat, and many (such as myself) object on ethical grounds.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:46 pm

No, John, I'm not conflating anything; I'm just applying your logic (see your answer further up).

But going by what you're coming up with now ... Jews are by definition not an ethnic group but a religious one and would therefore not qualify. Sephardim (or the Oriental Jews) in contrast would qualify as an ethnic group as they are Semites (or Arab if you prefer) and so do the Ethiopian Jews or "Beta Yisrael" as they're know too. I refrain from using the rather derogatory term for them which is used in Israel.

"2) To restore financial loss to a sovereign state caused by foreign aggression. This is usually in the form of land."

Where would you like to see this applied with respect to the Israel question? That they should give Syria, Lebanon or Egypt land for their past aggression? I can't believe that YOU would suggest something like that! After all they have been throughout the aggressor as their own political echelon admit. Except for 1973 when Egypt attacked Israel on the land Israel had occupied = Sinai - which was internationally recognized occupied territory. The right to liberate occupied territory from the foreign occupier is granted in the Geneva Convention and Israel is to the best of my knowledge not excluded.

Try the Cinnamon in the Hibiscus Tea, it's really nice. Especially when you have Hibiscus from Asswan ... excellent!
 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:47 pm
I think it is Wahhabism that I have a problem with rather than Islam in general.
Sufism has some interesting points upon how to meditate upon the Divine. I go to a Christian meditation group, and have listened to Sufi mystical teachings.

I bet you weren't expecting that Eleanora?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 4:57 pm

John, do you also object to kosher? I don't know how it is in the UK but kosher shops (not just labels) are forced upon the people in Switzerland and other Western states and I haven't heard anyone objecting to it.

We lived for some time in a formerly 100% Muslim State. Due to the influx and demand of a considerable number of Western and sub-continental expats one can buy since at least 30 years (that's how long ago my stay there was) openly pork and they have special shops for alcohol to which one has to have a license which is based on the salary. I've had one of the best Salamis and spare ribs there! Those Muslims seem to be a tad more tolerant it seems.

Let me be clear on that: I do NOT have any issue with either - kosher, halal or whatever - as it is ALWAYS my choice what I buy. Personally I believe that if we accept large groups of minorities (whether they are religious or ethnic minorities) and their habits can be accommodated and incorporated without them going at the expense of the indigenous people ... why not? It usually enriches the society.

And now I have to close down as it's already 2 o'clock in the morning and I have a busy day tomorrow. Sleep well!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 5:02 pm

Your posting just popped up, John, and that much time I still have.

Kudos to you that you listened to Sufi teachings!!! For this you get 2 Stars and you're right - I didn't expect that.

As for Wahhabism - frankly I don't know one single Muslim who doesn't have a problem with this warped and twisted interpretation. What really "kills" me in all this is the fact that ... the USA is supporting the unhindered export to the surrounding countries. Which leads me back to my old question: Qui Bono?

But that's not the point of our discussion here and I truly have to go to bed now - I need 4 hrs of beauty sleep ;-).
 

(0)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 5:02 pm
Good night Eleonora,

For when you get back....
Yes I would object to Kosher meat just as much as Halal. I also object to some Catholic practices regarding the treatment of animals.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 9:36 pm
Are you saying that NO non-halal meat is sold in the UK, John?

Or is it more a question that large chains prefer not to have the hassle of labelling halal meat for sale to Muslims & non-halal meat for others? (Since Muslims may constitute a proportion of their clientele that they would want to serve)

I don't believe that any dietary requirements should be imposed on population groups who do not share their values .... so Muslims should be able easily to find halal meat, Jews should be able easily to find kosher food (Well - perhaps a few exceptions .... I don't think Tesco's should start selling dog meat to satisfy Chinese clients, & I admit I'd never before really stopped to think about how British traditions condemn sale of food that is admissible under certain dietary "norms" of other people ... like horse meat ... although I believe that if one wishes one CAN find snails & frogs legs now. Personally, I wouldn't buy quails, or rabbit for eating ...)

Concerning Islam - judging Islam by Wahhabism is like judging Christianity by Christian Scientists, or Jehovah's Witnesses ... or the Moonies.
Like Eleonora - With the exception of some communities that have come under Wahhabite influence relatively recently (for example, in parts of Pakistan ... thanks to the spin off from US support to Afghans fighting the Russian influence, development of Al Qaeda & Bin Laden's influence there, which led to funding of extremist Madressas which integrated Wahhabism), almost all Muslims I know consider Wahhabism as a dangerous marginal splinter from Islam, warping & twisting Islamic teachings ... leading to extremism in many cases. NOT true to Islam.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday May 11, 2016, 11:42 pm
John is mixing and matching to suit his own like/dislike preference mindset.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 12:11 am
Most of all, Darren - he's been taking discussion off on so many tangents that the original topic has been largely lost sight of!

But as it is now 17 days since posting, & all these comments keep the story visible ... Well, I'm OK with his deviation of the thread!
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 12:58 am
Evelyn,
I could provide links, but simply cannot be bothered in the face of such double standards thinking. Google, use it.

My God! The arrogance of the left in victory. Did it not occur to you that Eleonora had made me realise that my problem was with Wahhabism and not Islam?
Or did you not notice that I also mentioned Sufism?

Darren,
And you don't?
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 1:16 am
Evelyn,
Several times I have been criticised for not answering questions, and accused of going of topic. So I will rewrite my original post.

Why should I support the BDS movement that harms both Israel and Palestine economically?
A movement that merely supports extremists on both sides?
A movement that encourages Palestinian leaders to hold out for more, and not negotiate in good faith?
That allows Israel to play the victim and not negotiate in good faith.

My rhetoric might have come across far more hard line than I actually am in reality.
But, I genuinely want there to be peace in the region.
The BDS is inspired by cultural Marxist who love to turn groups of people against each other in order to lay the way for a Communist revolution.

Boycotting South Africa did not change the attitude of the White Apartheid leaders. The leaders of the Apartheid system became more enlightened. If anything, the boycott made it harder for the moderates to end Apartheid.

If you are sincere in your desire to help the Palestinian people. Support them economically, don't attack Israel economically. The latter justifies the land grabs by Israel!

So I will stick to the original topic, but you must answer my points and not play the victim card!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 1:36 am
Mea culpa, John -

I didn't realise that we all had to repeat admiration for the fact you have listened to Sufi mystical teachings - I thought sending a Green Star for that was actually appreciation of the fact already.

Well done, John - there is some very fine development of Islamic principles in the writings of people like Mevlânâ Celâleddîn-i Rûmî (aka Jalal Al-Din Rumi) for example - who wrote one of the finest short verses about tolerance that I've ever read
(in a bad translation:)
"Come, Come, Come again - whoever you may be,
Come again, even though You may be a pagan or a fire worshipper.
Our centre is not one of despair.
Come again, even if you may have violated your
Vows a hundred times
Come again."
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 1:48 am
John - almost every effort to help the Palestinians help themselves to develop their economy is smashed - Israel doesn't give permits for building cottage industries such as dairy farm & processing ... and destroy those built without permits .... A bone of contention with the EU, since IDF have bulldozed projects the EU paid for ... they also destroy trees (olive, fruit orchards) ... they block products at checkpoints (imagine strawberries kept in hot lorries all through the day) I gave examples earlier that you opted to ignore.

BDS is a non-violent response to the occupation & oppression that is not only preventing independent economic development but also crushing efforts to achieve basic sustainable livelihoods.

Marxist? The US has been big on sanctions elsewhere - I wouldn't have thought sanctions was a MARXIST strategy
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 3:31 am
I wasn't seeking your praise Evelyn. Merely pointing out that maybe you should also try and read all that I write, just as I need to do the same with you.
My point was I'm not an Islamophobic little englander that you and Darren would like to see me as being.
But, I suppose a virtue signalling leftists, such as you two would assume I was seeking validation. I stand or fall before my own conscience.
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 3:45 am
Evelyn,
Don't be so nieve! The BDS movement is a violation movement. It engages in economic violence and deliberately attacks Israel's reputation. Israel therefore responses in kind. Merely a different format of economic violence.

Don't be so childish. I said the BDS movement was inspired by Cultural Marxists. Not that Boycotts, Divestments, and Sanctions were Marxist. Marxists use computers does not make computers Marxist.
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 3:51 am
I didn't ignore the points you make. I am answering them now. Israel does extreme actions in the face of terrorism that can't be stopped by conventional methods.
How do you stop suicide bombers and tunnelling?

Don't forget that Egypt carried out the same tactics as Israel used. Will find an article.
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 3:58 am
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/30/world/middleeast/egypt-sinai-peninsula-gaza-buffer-zone.html?referer=

If Egypt feels that's the only way to stop Palestian terrorism, why wouldn't Israel?

Evelyn, you're being guilty of the very thing I've been accused of! Not answering the questions!
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 4:01 am
Evelyn,

Please try and answer those four questions without playing the victim card!

1) Why should I support the BDS movement that harms both Israel and Palestine economically? 

2) A movement that merely supports extremists on both sides? 

3) A movement that encourages Palestinian leaders to hold out for more, and not negotiate in good faith? 

4) That allows Israel to play the victim and not negotiate in good faith?
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 4:05 pm
Feeling all superior and smug, lad?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 4:08 pm

Sorry, John, couldn't make it earlier and just stopped by to say "Hi" ;-). Have diagonally read across the new postings and will see to it that I can come back tomorrow.

For now and like a bed time story - just not so nice - I'd like to post two links I got today from a dear friend of mine. They might appeal to you too, John (?).

From The Heart

Caterpillar Bulldozer - Israel/Palestine
 

(0)
Thursday May 12, 2016, 5:29 pm
Eleanora,
I couldn't watch those two videos all the way through. The actions taken by the Israelis clearly is not (as was lead to believe) for security purposes. I will definitely consider what was in the two videos. The actions are not defence, but aggressive and in clear violation of international law. I was wrong and didn't know all the facts.


Darren, maybe you can tell your little triumphant on the other thread to come and watch the videos posted by Eleonora. You claim we're violating your's, Sandra's, and Ray's simply for blocking you from a Care2 group. I can honestly say I hadn't realised how badly Israel was conducting it's self. The actions in the videos are human rights violations. Maybe you three might get some perspective!
 

(0)
Friday May 13, 2016, 12:49 am
It would seem Evelyn that I owe you an apology. I had a sanitised version of the actions of the IDF.
I am still not convinced that the BDS movement is the best way forward, but am now somewhat more sympathetic towards it.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 13, 2016, 3:47 pm


It would be nice if some or all of you would sign this petition to Sec of State John Kerry. I got this email from Jewish Voice for Peace today and I believe it's outrageous:

The Israeli government is preventing Omar Barghouti, co-founder of the international BDS movement, from leaving Israel/Palestine.

Yesterday, news broke that the Israeli government has refused to renew travel documents for our friend and partner Omar Barghouti, co-founder of the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) movement -- effectively banning him from leaving Israel/Palestine.

This is a blatant violation of Barghouti’s basic rights. And it marks another low in Israel’s repression, intimidation and criminalization of Palestinian human rights activists.

The Israeli government thinks they can get away with this. And as a whole movement - truly globally - we need to show them that they can’t.

JVP, CodePink, and the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation are calling on Secretary of State John Kerry to protect the rights of human rights activists. Given US military, diplomatic, and economic aid to Israel, Kerry has the power to intervene on behalf of the Obama administration against Israel's persecution of political leaders.

And we need to make him use that power. We've set an ambitious goal - we want to get 20,000 signatures by the end of this week - because this is more than just an attack on one political leader. It's an attack on the right to nonviolently organize for justice, freedom, and equality.

This travel ban is a textbook example of the stranglehold that the Israeli government holds over every aspect of life for Palestinians. And it’s just one more facet of their attacks on the right to boycott. Successive Israeli governments have proven they will do all they can to deny and destroy nonviolent tools of protest, even though boycotts have for decades been a vital component of struggles for justice.

From state legislatures to the U.S. Congress, from college administrators to Presidential candidates -- the Israeli government and its backers here in the U.S. are attempting to legislate and intimidate the Palestinian-led movement for equality and freedom. Their attacks get more vicious as our movement for justice gets stronger.

So it’s no surprise the Israeli government is coming for perhaps the most recognizable voice within the global movement for BDS.

They're doing this because we’re winning. Plain and simple, this is repression in the face of a social justice movement that is quickly gaining steam. From G4S to the Unitarian Universalist Church to the United Nations to Ahava to literally dozens and dozens of other successful campaigns around the globe.

Denying Barghouti’s right to movement is another dangerous escalation of intimidation by the Israeli government against Palestinian human rights activists. As Amnesty International noted with alarm just last month, Israel is ramping up its targeting of human rights activists like Barghouti for arbitrary arrest, detention, imprisonment, injury, and torture.

In March, at an anti-BDS conference in Jerusalem, Israeli Minister Yisrael Katz even called on the government to engage in “targeted civil eliminations” of BDS leaders with the help of Israeli intelligence.

That's what they’re saying in public.

These horrifying threats and clear acts of repression cannot stand. When the Israeli government attempts to silence and criminalize activism to end occupation, discrimination, and apartheid, we will not be silent. In fact, we will be -- must be -- louder than ever.

Let’s flood Secretary Kerry’s office with tens of thousands of messages demanding that the US force the Israeli government to back off this outrageous political attack.

Towards justice,
Rebecca Vilkomerson
Executive Director
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday May 13, 2016, 3:55 pm
Signed and shared Eleonora.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 13, 2016, 4:06 pm


John W. - you're really good for a pleasant surprise ;-)!!

If you truly want to get a more balanced view as opposed to a one sided-one (only seeing Israel's cause or only seeing the Palestinian cause - both are not good!) then try these here for a start.

Israeli Occupation Archive

You may also want to check out the websites of:

- Gush Shalom (Peace Bloc)

- Jewish Voice for Peace

- ICAHD Israeli Committee Against House Demolition (to get an idea what the "Matrix of Control" really means - there's a special section on their website

- Zochrot

Happy Pentecost !
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 13, 2016, 4:14 pm

On a second thought … John W., you may want to read the discussion some of us had with Stephen B. on this thread:

with further links in some comments

Stephen B. - by his own definition some years ago - grew up as a Zionist and he tries to get rid of some of the "indoctrination" (his words) he was subjected to. At times successfully - at times not ... LOL. But he is a decent person to discuss with!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 13, 2016, 4:20 pm

On the occasion of the 68th National Day of Israel:

A Document with a Mission by Uri Avnery, Gush Shalom founder
 

(0)
Friday May 13, 2016, 8:35 pm
Eleonora,
I have conceded the point, please stop naming me further in this thread. You've won, don't gloat.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 13, 2016, 10:37 pm

John W. - sorry to disrespect your wish for a moment and just for the last time I'll address you here: I'm not gloating - that would be a rather immature behavior. It's not about winning; I'm just appreciative (maybe a bit late) that you're now willing to look at both sides of the coin and I hope you'll do further reading from trusted sources on both sides. That's all.

The only winner in the long run must be all human beings involved as well as peace and restoration of human rights.

I appreciate very much your openness and would like to apologize if I have been and/or came across as being rude in the past. Especially I'd like to apologize for having called you a Hasbratchik Troll; you're not.

I hope you accept my stretched out hand - all the very best!
 

(0)
Friday May 13, 2016, 11:13 pm
Sorry Eleonora,
My reply was more reactionary than I meant it to be due to a person on this thread (nothing to do with the BDS movement) attacking me elsewhere for simply being in a group.

You have changed my mind, and I will change my actions accordingly. I will look at your links later (haven't has the time.) I had a very emotional reason for my view point (if you want to know, I will message you in private.)
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 15, 2016, 9:18 am
John
I've been away, hence lack of comment of appreciation for your recognition that perhaps I wasn't being anti-human rights, totally closed etc - and perhaps taking back a few of the insults about naivity & childishness - I have great respect for those prepared to rethink a little when they realise perhaps they've had a one-sided briefing previously. I had to swallow many preconceptions when I started to learn something of the Palestinian side of the Middle Eastern situation ... and it was painful, realising that what I'd admired was actually largely clever propaganda ... Today, the "quality" & skills invested in the same propaganda is far more refined than it was in 1967 ... so I DO understand.

Which is why Stephen & I have civilised disagreements on the Israeli-Palestinian situation! With his pro-Zionist upbringing, we'll never fully agree, & he often thinks I'm honest, not anti-Semitic but naive about the situation (just as I think he's a little blind to some aspects of reality!!!) but we've agreed to disagree, & can respect our differences!

This isn't "gloating", so please don't feel it is and don't take offense, no offense is intended.

Between Eleonora and myself, your questions have been answered -
 
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