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The First Jesus?


World  (tags: archeology, ancient stones, christ figures, Christianity, discovery, interesting, Israel, middle-east, news, politics, research, science )

Kit
- 3412 days ago - channel.nationalgeographic.com
He called himself the King of the Jews, likely considered to be a Messiah. Just around Passover, the Romans killed him and crucified many of his followers outside Jerusalem. But his name was not Jesus, it was Simon,



   

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Comments

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 2:07 pm
Before the hair pulling and screams of blasphomy begin, this story is far more important because of what it offerers Christians then non-believers. Prior to Simon and Jesus a messiah was expected to be a man that would lead great battles against foes,not a man of peace. The story of Simon and Jesus are similiar stories through there is proof of the existance of Simon and other proclaimed messiahs of the time. It was a time of suffering for the people of Israel/Juda and the hope for great leader was never far from the thoughts or hopes of the people. The Stone of Simon is real and been through more testing then most an archealogical discovery,

I have read an appraisal of this National Geographic research as not being worth the trouble of a true believer to which I pose this:
Any one not open to investigate and learn more about the life and times of Jesus, and why many questioned if he were the messiah are simply fools. Belief – true belief comes from deep questions and a search for answers, not blind acceptance of what the crowd believes. The “stone” or stela in question does NOTdebunk Jesus, rather explains how the life and death of Simon lead to the changed thinking of what a messiah may be, that he might be more then just a military leader. Prior to this a messiah was to come and lead great battles to defeat the foes of Israel/Juda, after Simon there comes a change of thinking one that considers the possibility that a man of peace could also be a leader. Blind faith, leads to blind stupidity. If your afraid to question then where is your faith?
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 2:08 pm
***Blasphemy**** sorry!
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:07 pm

You are a BRAVE woman, my dear friend!

(but, I'm still beside you.)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:15 pm

I always appreciate your open-minded quest to present other prospects, Kit.

(Not to mention the entertainment value of watching proseleityzing "believers" shaking their Bibles and reminding us that we're going to their fantasy hell.)

ROFLMAO
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:23 pm
Ahh, but without this unique find in Israel, and many tests to validate authenticity then the believers would still be in quest of a redeposit of those beliefs. The mention of messiah in the Torah is not a person of peace, nor does he rise from death, he is a man with a mission - MAYBE from god, but most assuredly a bloody mission to kill those who will oppress the Jews. Then there is a discovery of this stiela that speaks of a man who hears the voice of Gabriel - ummm, messiahs can hear angels and NOT just be around to lead battles, well it's a twist and one that does in fact allow for Jews to follow men of peace and even call them messiah. Some neat things happen in archaeology when the mind is open.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:24 pm

(I don't think it's a big coincidence that this was discovered in Israel.)
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:30 pm
huh, Just where else would a stella about a messiah be found? In Germany maybe or the US of A. Geeez, woman, do I have to guide you through this step by step?
 

Katz R (54)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 4:35 pm
interesting and considering how people try to debate that King James pretty much did a pick and chose of what he wanted in the bible as most know it definately part of the history
 

sherrie e (147)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:00 pm
I am United Methodist...Open hearts, Open minds , Open doors....no fit here, just serious interest in learning. The Bible and archaeology go hand in hand....there is alot to be learned! Thaks, Kit
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:09 pm

No, Kit. I'm not seeking a "guide." I'll leave that for the followers.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:25 pm

Read the papers. Jesus can even be found in modern-day tortillas.

(What more proof do you need?)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:28 pm
 
More proof?
 
A woman from New Zealand has sold two souls on Ebay for $1,983.  The souls are trapped within vials of blue holy water and are purported to be the souls of former occupants of her home, an old man and a troublesome girl.
 
The proceeds were donated to charity (after the exorcist's fee for trapping the ghosts).
 
See http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100309/D9EASVBO0.html for details.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:30 pm

Hey, if it's in the paper (and people paid money) . . .
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:32 pm
I understand that Mary was found on grilled cheese sandwich - what's with the food deal?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:41 pm

Got me. But it can't be just a coincidence!

(hehehehehe)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:57 pm

Maybe I'm just not worthy. Every day, I eat . . . and yet, I've never seen a Biblical figure in my dinner. Tonight, for example, I made a great meal of braised pork chops (w/applesauce), potatoes au gratin, green beans, and crescent rolls -- not even ONE saint or deity on that plate (no matter how I arranged it)!

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 5:58 pm

(For the vegans -- the same happens when I eat salad.)
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 7:08 pm
"Prior to this a messiah was to come and lead great battles to defeat the foes of Israel/Juda, after Simon there comes a change of thinking one that considers the possibility that a man of peace could also be a leader." I wonder if any RepubliCONs can wrap their heads around that? People CAN change!;)
Just C is an unapologetic, unimaginative eater! Say 3 Hail Mary's & send me recipes!
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 7:24 pm
Yvonne has a point, a touch of imagination would probably be helpful to conger up a few important images in your next meal, Just C...remember it could be worth millions.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 7:28 pm

Forget that . . . I'll go for porn.

(Looking up my St. Patty's Day cabbage and kielbasa recipe for Yvonne. LOL)
 

Kit B (276)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 7:46 pm
Are you sure there's a difference?
 

Tierney G (381)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 8:06 pm
This is another eye opener. Wow just like after all those years of believing that Jesus was born on Dec. 25 then to find out He was not. very disturbing to me. I have always loved Jesus and always will who ever He is or was. He had a much better view on life than anyone else in the Bible. Thanks for this interesting find Kit!
 

Deanna Zimmerman (74)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 9:57 pm
I love things like this. I did notice something tho.

@He led a failed rebellion against Rome in 4 B.C. before Passover and set fire to one of King Herod’s palaces at Jericho and several other royal residences.

How old was King Herod when Simon burned one of his palaces, and how old was he when he dealt with Jesus? I have no idea how old King Herod was when he died, but he must have been very old, even by today's standards.
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 10:43 pm
According to National Geographic, Herod died in 4 B.C. in Jericho. It also says Herod was born in 73 B.C. and grew up in Judaea. So he lived about 69 years - pretty long time!
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 10:52 pm
Oh, I forgot to put in, Herod never dealt with Jesus directly (the thing about killing the first borns is only in Matthew's Gospel, there's no report apart from Matthew's account), but the Bible does point the finger at Pontius Pilot: After his death, Judaea's prosperity declined. His descendants frittered away the enormous fortune he had left them and squandered the religious and political harmony that he had so carefully fostered. After ten years of ineffectual rule by Herod's son, the impatient Romans assigned a procurator to govern Judaea directly (in the early 30s A.D., the office was held by Pontius Pilate). To many Jews, the Romans now seemed oppressors and infidels. In the First Jewish Revolt, in the late 60s A.D., the rebels held out tenaciously against the Roman legions at both of Herod's hilltop fortresses, Herodium and Masada. At Herodium they vandalized Herod's tomb and reshaped the hilltop: changing his triclinium, a lavish dining room, into a synagogue, and digging two Jewish ritual baths, or mikvahs, into the courtyard. The fighters there eventually surrendered. But at Masada they fought to the end; when defeat seemed inevitable, they reportedly committed suicide rather than become Roman prisoners and slaves. During the Second Jewish Revolt, in the 130s, the two fortresses again became rebel strongholds. At Herodium, they dug a system of tunnels into the hill, which they used to launch surprise attacks on the Romans, and which can still be visited today.
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday March 13, 2010, 10:54 pm
I will NOT be asking Just C to help me paint Easter Eggs!;)
 

Rajee Seetharam (138)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 12:29 am
Thanks! I've noted with a lot of interest!
 

Jane D (0)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 1:24 am
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ knows they do not need proof. The proof they have is a deep knowledge in their hearts and minds that every single human being is born with but it gets forgotten. This is why when someone becomes a Christian what they learn echoes in their basic instinct hearts and minds and is backed up by what is read in the Bible. Every Christian knows that written words whether from the Bible or the Encyclopedia is open to interpretation and I have learnt so much more about God when I have studied Greek and Hebrew translations alongside prayer. The Jews will never admit to Jesus existing because they are too proud. A peaceful man does cause wars in the mind because that is the nature of human beings. Jesus Christ came to free people from the angst in their minds brought on by the conflict of being controlled by Rules and their own sense of Right. How anyone made the leap from finding the amazing Stone Tablet to someone called Simon I do not understand.
 

Elizabeth Schauki (13)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 4:08 am
Thank you Kit for the information. I agree that we should question our beliefs because it would be very foolish to believe in any religion which isn't true.
 

Terry B (649)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 7:19 am
Yvonne makes a good point about Matthew needing to get his facts straight since his life span did not overlap that of the good Rabbi Jehoshua of Nazareth, not mentioned in the other gospels. Likewise John, largely responsible for two millenia of antisemitism, had no idea what he was talking about when he accused the Jewish Sanhedrin court since there was no way that the Sanhedrin would ever meet on Passover Eve. It was the Romans, stupid, bunch of Italians!

Another interesting error is the location of the supposed birthplace of Rabbi Jehoshua (a.k.a. The Anointed One, or Jesus Christ) in Bethlehem just outside Jerusalem. If that had been his birthplace, it was within walking distance of the Temple in Jerusalem and there would have been no need for an overnight stay in a manger. No, he was born in a town also called Bethlehem up north and now undergoing archaeological excavation. And guess what? It's in Galilee near a city called, guess what again? Nazareth. Surpise. Why do people think he was called Jesus of Nazareth if he was from Bethlehem--by-Jerusalem?
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 7:39 am
Makes no difference to me. I left Christianity long ago. But I do remember sources saying that there were many people claiming to be the messiah before Jesus. Simon is no Jesus as Simon seems to be more of a zealot. People should be more concerned with the message of his ministry than what the historical claims were.
 

Elizabeth Vanderpool (2)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 7:55 am
thanks
 

Kit B (276)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:06 am
Jane D. by no means is this an attack on your beliefs it is however, an enhancement on things that happened prior to Jesus. If you slander Jews then do you not also slander Jesus as he was a Jew. I do not know of Jews or Islamics that do not recognize Jesus as prophet, anything more must come from your choice of belief.
It may be noted here that Herod did have a son, and lovely dear that he was he made his tyrannical father seem a darling.

Addressing the archaeology of recent confirmed study then Terry B. is accurate, and the most likely place of the birth of Jesus was in the Bethlehem near Galilee which is currently under a very slow archeological dig. The idea that Jesus was born in manager with animals all around is most likely a retelling of a story, and even a translation that became confused. Mary and Joesph were supposed to be making the trip for the purpose of a census, and would most logically be staying with family and not alone or with strangers. The room she was given might have been a store room just under or to the side of the home of the family. This would have allowed privacy for childbirth in a home most likely very crowded with family members who had also come for the census.

The drama surrounding the birth is however no different than that of any other "god-child" of ancient times. All had a "star" in the sky, all had kingly visitors, taming of wild beasts, and "virginal" mothers. It's good that people are able to read the new testament in ancient Greek, Coptic, late period roman, Aramaic and Hebrew this at least allows the reader to apply their own reasoning and knowledge to the few books allowed by the church (Roman) leaders of the time. As the Nag Hammadi scrolls have shown there are many other stories some far more interesting. Also by reading these dead (with the exception of Hebrew) languages the reader can also know what a true mess of interpretation the KJV is - probably to fit a concept of efficiency and need of the years following the Reformation.

That facts learned about Jesus is offensive or requires defense speaks more to their lack of ability to accept true history then to any group of people or substantiated facts.

"The Jews will never admit to Jesus existing because they are too proud." How sad a comment to make by someone who claims to embrace the ideals of love of Jesus, I doubt he would accept that condemnation as a "christian" behavior. Perhaps your modern enthusiasm has caused you to lose touch with the true ideals and concepts of Jesus, the ideals absolute acceptance and love of one another.
From the dictionary a few thoughts on your choice of word:
—Synonyms
1. contented, self-satisfied. 2. overbearing, self-important, disdainful, imperious, presumptuous. Proud, arrogant, haughty imply a consciousness of, or a belief in, one's superiority in some respect. Proud implies sensitiveness, lofty self-respect, or jealous preservation of one's dignity, station, and the like. It may refer to an affectionate admiration of or a justifiable pride concerning someone else: proud of his son. Arrogant applies to insolent or overbearing behavior, arising from an exaggerated belief in one's importance: arrogant rudeness. Haughty implies lofty reserve and confident, often disdainful assumption of superiority over others: the haughty manner of the butler in the play. 6. noble, imposing, splendid.

And is this not the exact description of Jews that is so enjoyed by those who wish them ill? When in fact they are simply human being with a set of beliefs - and like all beliefs no more provable then christian or muslim or buddhist, jainism, hindu or any other, The are beliefs - or a choice - nothing more nothing less.
 

Kit B (276)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:19 am
****A correction - the Coptic language is still in use in the Coptic Churches mostly found in Egypt, but with a smattering in other places in the middle east, They are of course under constant scrutiny and harassment for their beliefs, which are quiet different in essence from traditional Catholicism or modern day christian religions.

When people do not understand the reasons for rise of the christian religion - it's true origins then it must be difficult to understand the all the differences and why those thoughts contrary to established Catholicism after the Nicene Council in the 400's had to extinguish all those lights of thought.

An objective study of Constantine can give many unanswered questioned, some of the best theological minds alive today have no fear or doubt from probing and learning from history.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:34 am
Wow, Kit B. This went from a simple article to a Christian bashing, wow, no use posting in this thread, I thought it would talk about the article....
 

Terry B (649)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:51 am
Thanks for your clarification, Kit.

Jane is absolutely wrong. Many Jews accept Rabbi Jehoshua of Nazareth as a viable historical personage whose existence is highly proabable, and becoming moreso with new discoveries in Galilee. But we should remember that he was not attempting to start a new religion, but clean up the faults that he felt had crept into the existing one, a sort of Jewish Martin Luther, if you will, and more properly seen as the first Reform Rabbi.

No new religion was proposed until quite a bit later when Saul / Paul had a vision on the road to Damascus. Cactus juice and desert mirages will do that to you.
 

Kit B (276)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 9:02 am
True Terry, but then THEY do say never discuss; politics, religion or sex - which leaves, gardening, needlepoint, and bridge. Thing I 'd rather have a go at the things have some deeper meaning, I have been taught that nothing enriches life like the challenge of learning. So let's just say I'm testing the theory.
 

Pamylle G (458)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 12:53 pm
Good read ! Thanks, Kit.
 

Deanna Zimmerman (74)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 1:08 pm
This is fascinating, and I'm completely in awe of your depth of knowelege on so many subjects Kit.

But, I'm baffled by the comment that this has turned into a Christian bashing thread. I don't see anything written against Jesus, or even HINTING that Jesus isn't all that Christians believe him to be. The fact is, even IF Simon were a true messiah, he didn't have the staying power or the effect that Jesus had/has.

@The Jews will never admit to Jesus existing because they are too proud.
Wow, what an offensive and completely ignorant thing to say. Have you EVER asked a jew about Jesus?
 

Kit B (276)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 1:17 pm
Thanks Deanna, but it is a problem that with the new forms of evangelical christians no conversation, no education and no discussion is permitted, unless of course it is exactly a regurgitation of what is already believed. I can only feel deeply for a choice that leads not to love and understanding for one's fellow man, but for a sad separation for all who are other. The choice of separation of Jews is just one more effort to keep knowledge out and ignorance in - perhaps this engenders a more obedient flock?
 

Lynne L (71)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 2:10 pm
after reading all this 'religious attitude' nonsense i'm glad i got out of that racket a long time ago (i was a child). i don't believe in Any god and i believe i'm a happier person for it. but thanx for the historical info, Kit!
 

Yvonne White (229)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 2:37 pm
I don't understand why John thought these comments were Christian bashing either, Deanna! But I do see a little Jew bashing, which has been addressed ..
I think this is a fairly mellow discussion compared to some I've seen!:)
I used to subscribe to several Archaeology magazines, one concerned the Middle East exclusively. I liked it because it had footnotes & resource notes at the end of articles in more detail than most publications. I do recall the original discovery of this stellae & the uproar that lead to it's NOT being studied til now..
 

Aletta Kraan (146)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 6:23 pm
Noted , thanks !!
 

Donna B (39)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 7:14 pm
This is just an archaeological finding, certainly doesn't seem to be trying to say anything negative about Jesus.
 

Deanna Zimmerman (74)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:21 pm
Egads, please let this stay mellow. I'm already involved in a heightened political discussion elsewhere. It sure is exhausting.
 

Terry B (649)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 8:28 pm
Donna is right -- nothing negative is implied about the character and deeds of Jesus / Jehoshua, just a correction now backed with physical evidence and more in line with Scripture that He was born in Bethlehem in Galilee near Nazareth and not Bethlehem by Jerusalem where the Church if the Holy Sepulcher is mistakenly located.
 

Yvonne White (229)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 10:08 pm
Amen Terry!:)
 

Mary Donnelly (47)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 11:04 pm
Thanks Kit for the post, and everybody for the discussion.

It just shows the problems involved with attempts at reform: e.g.

Christ came to reform Judaism and got his followers a new religion;
Luther tried to reform Catholicism and he got his followers a new religion;
Muhammed tried to reform several religions etc and he got his followers a new religion.

The "powers that be" whoever and wherever they are, and whatever they do, don't like questions, much less reform. e.g. Healthcare reform in the USA today.

We all need to be a bit careful here because the New Testament and Josephus came some time after Christ had died, and we 21st century inhabitants have had to put up with copying mistakes, transliterations,translations, editing, and censorship.
 

Deanna Zimmerman (74)
Sunday March 14, 2010, 11:58 pm
Oh Mary,
What a cool thought. Everyone who comes for reform, leaves with a new religion.
Does that mean Obama came to reform, and will get his followers a new religion?

What a fascinating angle to discuss! But not right now. My sleeping pill is kicking in....yawn.
G'nite!
 

Gillian M (218)
Monday March 15, 2010, 5:04 pm
Having seen Nat Geo on the New Testament before, it is not always easy to say that the 4 Gospels are accurate. There were over 100 Gospels (I think) and 4 were picked in 89AD (give or take, it's a while since I saw the progs) and the 4 most anti-Jew ones were picked to show the Romans that Christians had nothing to do with the Jewish uprising.

There is the Gospel of Judas where Jesus told Judas to sell him to the Romans as he had to die (which would make sense if Jesus had to die to save he world) which also has supporting evidence. The churches described Mary Magdalene as a prostitute but there is nothing in any Gospel to indicate that, it was to discredit her, why? Nat Geo believed that she was important to Jesus as she was his financial backer/supported and suggests that they were in love and, possibly, married. That would have been standard for any Jewish family in those days, a marriage.

There are many other testaments and many have been lost. A few have been found and could be true from another prospect.

I think that Christianity relies solely on faith and looks towards the next world. Judaism says the best Jew is one who believes because his father did and questions for himself. Jews live for today and believe that any wrong needs to be dealt with in the here and now.

Christianity also took important dates from old religions eg Xmas being the shortest day, to bring converts over. Many continued to practise their old religion alongside the new one as it did no harm to invoke both gods for whatever reason. I think I might try that....
 

pam w (139)
Tuesday March 16, 2010, 9:22 am
KIT: "it is a problem that with the new forms of evangelical christians no conversation, no education and no discussion is permitted, unless of course it is exactly a regurgitation of what is already believed."

++++++++++ And it's not just evangelical Christians....it's religions of all varieties! If you take a non-theistic perspective, people have been claiming to be "THE ONE" since the dawn of time...thousands of religions have arisen, flourished and died off. But they all insistently claim to be "THE ONE TRUE RELIGION." And...you'll notice they LEAP on scientific discoveries to try to use them as validations for their sacred texts.
 

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday March 16, 2010, 9:24 am
thank you for an interesting article Kit. Some interesting comments too.

I cannot help but wonder why God who created the capability to think, the mind of humans, would expect or approve of the blind following of indoctrinated, inaccurate, even false beliefs.

Having an inquisitive mind and using it is more likely what God expects.



 
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