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Is the US on the Brink of Fascism?

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: fascism, awareness, corporate-owned_media )

- 3329 days ago -
What Is Fascism? The word has been bandied about by so many people so wrongly for so long that, as Paxton points out, "Everybody is somebody else's fascist." Given that, I always like to start these conversations . . .


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Melva H (93)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 11:14 am
Yes, we are on the brink. And since the majority tolerated the lawlessness of the Bush Gang, I don't think it likely that the majority will demand that the Destroyers cease and desist, that the country get back on track, at this late date. I fear the rat race is all but over and the rats have won!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 12:21 pm

Unfortunately, Melva, I have to agree with you.

I keep posting articles, hoping to spark independent, thinking replies -- but I keep getting robotic "cliche-ridden" responses about patriotism, love of freedom, support of our military, "this is how it's always been" -- FEW OF WHICH ACTUALLY ADDRESS THE SUBJECT MATTER.

It's much like observing a recovery patient from a lobotomy. None of the issues questioned are addressed, but I repeatedy get "Stepford Wife" responses.

Melva H (93)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 12:33 pm
I certainly understand your frustration, Carole. But without ones who care to keep sounding the alarm, there is no Hope at all! Hang in, Lady!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 12:44 pm

And, I got a reply from you date-stamped 3:33pm (8 minutes ago) -- but it has yet to show up here.

If Care2 truly has such a sloppy, perpetually re-curring "latency" problem, I also am rethinking whether I want to address key issues here. Sometimes, timing is key; and this has been going on for far too long with little priority given to it.

Sunday August 9, 2009, 12:45 pm

Cynthia Davis (340)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 12:51 pm
When I voted for Obama I thought that he would right the wrongs of the Bush Adm. But so far I don't see him reversing the many rights that Bush took away and I am begining to worry. We have lost rights that we may never get back and why does no one seem to care? When Bush was in office and new laws were passed that walked all over our freedoms I wondered why people were not screaming their heads off. I waited for the screams to begin even though I was screaming already, but they never came and they still are not screaming. The only screaming I hear is about all the wrong things. And our two party system that I have alway believe in seems to be leading us in the wrong dierction.

Janet G (108)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 1:13 pm
I am sorry but I never felt that Obama would be much different than the rest of the bunch. We are supposed to be telling our gov what we want and we are entitiled to disagree and oppose any law that is not by the people and for the people. Yes, Obama is as I said before, just another puppet and the puppeteer is Mr. Rocketfeller and the bilderbug (cockroacjes) and of course we have Henry Kissinger as one of Obama's advisers. Have we lost our noodles, we have simply turned America over to these people just as they planned, without a fight!

Janet G (108)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 1:13 pm
Meant to say cockroaches.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 1:15 pm

Trust me, Jan -- we all KNEW what you meant!

*huge hug and wicked smile*

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 1:27 pm

Granted, at 108, my memory bank goes back further than many of the members here . . .

But, does anyone else remember when the government used to say, "we can't release that information, for security reasons," and we honestly bought that explanation and were PROUD to be led by such smart legislators????


Eleanor B (909)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 2:46 pm
In Germany in the 30s it was a very close-run thing between the communists and the fascists but unfortunately the fascists won. The German people were reduced to penury because of the dreadful conditions imposed upon them by France and Britain after the First World War - a war between empires - absolutely nothing to do with freedom. Britain feared the spread of the German Empire which would cost them money. Fascism is an economic system where big business rules, an extension of capitalism. It involves the subjugation of the working classes and with that goes all the authoritarian laws denying freedom of speech and any other freedoms the working classes had fought for over hundreds of years. These days our rulers don't call themselves fascists but everything they do is fascist - repression, denial of the right to protest freely, bailing out the banks and big business at the expense of the poor, propaganda against 'enemies of the state'. Nowadays we don't have Goebbels, we have Rupert Murdoch quietly brainwashing the people who have most to lose under capitalism in his gutter-press rags and tv stations.

Elderberry T (201)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 3:34 pm
Protesters are rounded up, arrested day(s) before any legally entitled demonstration, door to door intimidation from Obama party if you disagree prior to election. Bombing its way thru the middle east...Talk of Forced vaccinations. Fema Camps, Etc etc. Yes Carole but not only US.....

I found this today...

Here are the top controllers of the Federal Reserve Bank
1. Rothchild banks of London and Berlin.
2. Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris.
3. Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy.
4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam.
5. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York.
6. Kuhn, Loeb bank of New York.
7. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York.
8. Goldman, Sachs Bank of New York.


Blue Bunting (855)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 3:38 pm
Lehman Brothers is OUT OF BU$INE$$ ...

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 3:53 pm
Yes, there is a great deal of information available, leading to the Bilderberg Group and the Federal Reserve, and the key players involved therein.  People just need to keep an open mind and read/view it.
A good recommendation (and necessary primer):
America:  Freedom to Fascism
An excellent book that methodically lays out how the depression was "manufactured" and the steps introduced to "indoctrinate" consumers and control buying decisions:
Daily Life In the United States 1920-1940 (How Americans Lived Through the Roaring Twenties' and the Great Depression) by David E. Kyvig.

Elderberry T (201)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:00 pm
Whoops thats right..they are past tense...should have noticed that one thanks Blue....and TX Carole

Melva H (93)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:03 pm
I have not given up on Obama.. He inherited what I believe to be the WORST mess this country has ever been in. In 8 years the Cheney Cabal destroyed Everything in this country and everything it had stood for. They left absolutely Nothing intact NOTHING!! Where do you start when Nothing is as it should be? I think Obama is TRYING to do things in the order he and his advisers believe need to be done. And he is having to do it with the GOP fighting and distracting him every inch of the way! I am not sure that the mess can be completely cleaned up, but I believe Obama is trying. And the crazies will continue to do all in their power to roadblock all his efforts to restore and rebuild the country. The GOP has hopes of getting back in Power in the not too distant future to complete the sell-out and destruction of the US.

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:07 pm
Ladies, ladies, there is medication you can take now for all that paranoia. It will also help you understand that the foolish and hypocritical words coming out of your mouths are just that. FOOLISH and HYPOCRITICAL!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:09 pm

Carrie, please limit your comments to the arguments at hand and resist making personal attacks. Thank you.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:11 pm

I, for one, would be very pleased if someone could PROVE that the videos and literature and news articles and historical references are unfounded. I could then return to the 50's mentality of blindly trusting my government.

Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:19 pm

Cynthia Davis (340)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:21 pm
It seems to me that we are so busy fighting with each other I mean Democrats vs Republican that we can't see anything else. When we should be working together to see to it that our government works for us and not their self. But maybe thats what our government wants us to do, fight with each other I mean. Its just a thought.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:27 pm

And that's a very common diversionary tactic, Cynthia. It's also one of the reasons I resist using "labels," such as right-wing, left-wing, conservative, liberal, Republican, Democrat as catch-all insults.

I have been all of the above -- depending on the issue -- but it makes life much easier for many to throw people into categories and choose sides.

If people disagree with an opinion expressed, I, personally, appreciate an intelligent discourse, disproving its veracity, rather than name-calling. That really serves no useful purpose for any of the parties involved. And, I believe there are still many people unsure of what to believe who are actively seeking some truth.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:42 pm
For folks who may have been absent the day they taught social studies, we live in a representative democracy (aka republic) as do the French and German people. Power transferred peacefully through open elections to Obama in the USA, Sarcozy in France and Merkle in Germany. And power will transfer to others in the future, by consent of the governed, when terms expire and/or term limits are reached ... in all three countries. Not even close to Fascist government. Really. Look it up; I'd never try to deceive you.

Melva H (93)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 4:48 pm
It is hard to have a conversation with thugs who won't allow a Dem to have a town hall meeting; who threaten him with death because he is for health care! Many town hall meetings have been canceled because of programed thug disruption. President Obama is receiving over 30 death threats per day! See Carrie Burton's contribution to this article to see the mindset of the in-your-face bullying minority

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:03 pm

Well, it's certainly helpful in seeing where YOU stand! hehehehe.

Robert K (437)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:06 pm
We live in an antipodal world; positive/negative, rich/poor, good/evil, light/dark, repubican/democrat, Stalinism/Communism, on to infinitude. And as all know for every point to view, there are just as many viewpoints as there are viewers. Due to this predilection or predestination, it cannot be any other way except as Gandi said, the change we wish to see must be in ourselves. Or likewise as Solomon in Ecclesiastes said, 'time and chance takes care of all things.' Consequently any proposition idealogy or whatever thrown out, roughly 50% of the people will be for it, and 50% against it. Whereas from this antagonism, we and all things on earth (though a singular being) are in a free fall, and it is not whether we are going to pathetically crash or not, it is just when or how long before the impact.

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:11 pm
Gee Carole, I know you are full of your own self importance and want to play moderator here, but when I hear you and the others talking here like you might actually know anything about facism and what it means and what this country is and what it means, I just have to point what loonies you all are! I am not bullying anyone here, but I am not one of your little followers who will pretend that what you are doing is anything more than just serving your own self interest and self importance. By the way, what does your made up age of 108 have to do with the topic at hand? Before you start preaching to me or anyone else about our government and denegrating a president who, for the past seven months has been trying to clean up the mess Bush made in eight years,just maybe you should take a few classes on history, government, constitutional law, social studies, and ah yes, humility! You want Obama to fix in seven months what Bush spent eight years trying to destroy. Now that Obama is in office this country is finally getting back some of the respect it had before all over the world! Bush took that respect away! Maybe he is the dictatorial leader you should be after! And I will darn well say what I feel like saying here and if you don't like it, LEAVE!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:11 pm

Whoa, Boots . . . Thanks for jumping in!

By the way, for anyone who is unaware of my position on universal healthcare, I happen to be a VERY active supporter of HR 676!!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:14 pm

Carrie, please note that I have not mentioned Obama, nor have I called you or anyone else a bully. In fact, I simply asked that the arguments here stick to the topic, and not become personal.

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:20 pm
Carole, why don't you just stop trying to be more important here than you are? You are NOT the moderator!I did not personally attack any individual here. It's called sarcasm and that you may learn in an English class.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:22 pm

Carrie, I posted the story because I'm interested in hearing the viewpoints of other readers, and sharing my own, on the subject of the post. I think you'll find that to be true of most of the stories posted here.

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:22 pm
Thanks Boots! Glad you are here. Finally an uncontrolling voice of reason!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:34 pm

"Whereas from this antagonism, we and all things on earth (though a singular being) are in a free fall, and it is not whether we are going to pathetically crash or not, it is just when or how long before the impact."

That's somber, Boots.

Marion Y (322)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:42 pm
Carrie...a song for you.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:43 pm
Hi J Carole, you wrote:

"Carrie, I posted the story because I'm interested in hearing the viewpoints of other readers, and sharing my own, on the subject of the post. I think you'll find that to be true of most of the stories posted here."

Just to satisfy your interest in my viewpoint, I thinks it's completely f**king retarded to think that healthcare reform is in any way related to Fascism. "Stupid" would be too generous an interpretation.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:46 pm

Jim, I said that because of your comment:

"Moderate; Leaning, Solidly, Extreme, Lunatic Fringe; and finally, way out there, completely fruit loops nutjobs that think healthcare reform is Fascist."

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:47 pm
Hi Carrie, if you want out I'll bail too. These people truly undermine my faith in humanity. It's not even healthy sparring with these morons.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:50 pm
J Carole,

I said what I did because your picture equating Democrats to Nazi Germany is utter disgusting.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:52 pm

Well, now it all makes sense. Thank you.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 5:55 pm

(And I think the picture is equating Republicans.) It was actually chosen for its wording though.

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:01 pm
Marion, when people send me songs they always pick one of their favorites hoping I will also enjoy it. You missed the mark on my part, but now I know what kind of music you like. And of course, I see Carole is still doing a fine job of moderating when it comes to anyone who disagrees with her. The rest of you mindless followers of Frau Carole have carte blanche.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:09 pm
Please everyone, watch this:

Thank you,


Cynthia Davis (340)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:10 pm
Is everyone done fighting now? I don't think that we are close to Socialism or Fascism but at the same time I don't think we can just lay back and relax either. I like Obama I voted for him but there are same things that he isn't doing that I thought he would and it worries me. But I never said I was ready to give up on him. We will see what he does but I don't ever think that anyone should ever lay back and not question there Government.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:13 pm

So true, Cynthia.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:16 pm

Honestly? I don't understand why so many people are afraid of Socialism.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:22 pm
Ineed; my bad. Elephant = Rep.

Your bad: even thinking this is worthy of discussion and thus advancing such stupidity

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:27 pm

Melva, I'm starting to see your point! LOL!

Cynthia Davis (340)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:32 pm
Is everyone done fighting now? I hope so. I want to get one thing straight I never said I was against Obama. I like Obama I voted for him. What I said was (and I mean it) that he has not changed some of the things that Bush took from use and it worries me. I do not thinf that we are headed towards Socialism or Fascism. But I think anyone that doesn't question their Government is a fool. I would also like to say that I am no ones little follower.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:36 pm

Cynthia, there's about an 8-minute delay before comments are posting. (I know, it's kinda irritating and you wonder if yours went through.)

And anyone who really knows you would never imply you're a follower.

Cynthia Davis (340)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:44 pm
I said that two times didn't I. I must have Really meant what I was saying that time huh.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:47 pm

Yeah, but it was worth reading twice!


Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 6:57 pm
No, Cynthia You are not a follower, but many, dare I say most here are. And I believe everyone single of us questions our government from time to time. I just happen to believe that after all we have been through the past eight years that comparing THIS admistration to facists is extremely laughable, pathetic, and unproductive.

stephen s (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 7:22 pm
Under fascism, the state, through official cartels, controlls all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture. Planning boards set product lines, production levels, prices, wages, working conditions, and the size of firms. Levels of consumption were dictated by the state, and “excess” incomes had to be surrendered as taxes or “loans.
Obama is doing exactly this with his takeover of banks, auto companies, increased taxes and one payer health care system rationing.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 7:39 pm
"Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism'. I'm afraid, based on my own long experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security."Sen. Huey Long
Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism The 14 characteristics are:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -- Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.  Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -- Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need". The people tend to 'look the other way' or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military -- Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism -- The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media -- Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or through sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security -- Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -- Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected -- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed -- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -- Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -- Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions, and who use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections -- Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against (or even the assassination of) opposition candidates, the use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Marion Y (322)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 8:32 pm
Thanks for posting this list, Carole. I'd say we were at the height of fascism during the Bush Regime. Obama is trying to remove some of it. It amazes how some folks try to tell you the sky is brown when we can clearly see it's blue...

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 8:48 pm
Former Communications Director for Cigna in sworn testimony before Congress:

"Recently it became abundantly clear to me that the industry's charm offensive, which is the most visible part of a duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaign, may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans.

The industry and its backers are using fear tactics, as they did in 1994, to tar a transparent and accountable, publicly accountable health care option as, quote, "government-run health care." What we have today, Mr. Chairman, is Wall Street-run health care that has proven itself an untrustworthy partner to its customers, to the doctors and hospitals who deliver care and to the state and federal governments that attempt to regulate it. "

Reference: Link to video

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 8:51 pm
Debating whether the US is Fascist is a pointless. Quick answer: It's not; and never was under any president, whatsoever.

Move on to something that actually matters.

Robert K (437)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 9:02 pm
But this mood isn’t just about the banks, Public Enemy No. 1. What the Great Recession has crystallized is a larger syndrome that Obama tapped into during the campaign. It’s the sinking sensation that the American game is rigged — that, as the president typically put it a month after his inauguration, the system is in hock to “the interests of powerful lobbyists or the wealthiest few” who have “run Washington far too long.” He promised to smite them.

No president can do that alone, let alone in six months. To make Obama’s goal more quixotic, the ailment that he diagnosed is far bigger than Washington and often beyond politics’ domain. What disturbs Americans of all ideological persuasions is the fear that almost everything, not just government, is fixed or manipulated by some powerful hidden hand, from commercial transactions as trivial as the sales of prime concert tickets to cultural forces as pervasive as the news media.

It’s a cynicism confirmed almost daily by events. Last week Brian Stelter of The Times reported that the corporate bosses of MSNBC and Fox News, Jeffrey Immelt of General Electric and Rupert Murdoch of News Corporation, had sanctioned their lieutenants to broker what a G.E. spokesman called a new “level of civility” between their brawling cable stars, Keith Olbermann and Bill O’Reilly. A Fox spokesman later confirmed to Howard Kurtz of The Post that “there was an agreement” at least at the corporate level. Olbermann said he was a “party to no deal,” and in any event what looked like a temporary truce ended after The Times article was published. But the whole scrape only fed legitimate suspicions on the right and left alike that even their loudest public voices can be silenced if the business interests of the real American elite decree it.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 9:02 pm

Jim -- Thank you for returning, although you think this discussion doesn't actually matter.

BTW, your preceding comment hit point #9.

Corporate Power is Protected -- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 9:04 pm

Boots, you never disappoint me!

Melva H (93)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 9:26 pm
To Jim D.'s post: I tend to disagree that "it never was under any president'. How about under Cheney? Oh, he wasn't president, was more than Bush was.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 9:49 pm
Sorry I got here late, folks. I won't even try to address all the ridiculous hysteria I've read here, but I'll touch on a few points.

Carole, Cynthia is right. Your 14 points defining Fascism really does exactly describe the G. W. Bush Administration--right down to the ground.

And Jim is also correct. The whole premise of this discussion (if you can actually call it a discussion) is pointless. No one--absolutely no one--with even half a brain actually thinks the President is a Nazi (or a Kenyan, for that matter) and the Administration is Fascist. (Except for Marion, that is, who sent Carrie a link to an offensive, pro-Nazi song just because she disagreed with her. Now that was really an adult act to be proud of.)

The far right has no constructive ideas, so they spend their time and money on this kind of crap in an effort to distract us from any real discussion of where this country should go and how to get there. Their credo is, if you have nothing to offer, make sure that no one else is allowed to offer anything, either.

Now can we please talk about something real?

Carrie B (306)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 10:30 pm
If the far right and power elite have their way this will soon be the land of the lost and the home of the wealthy. Just keep throwing around those incendiary words like fascist and Nazi and you'll help get us there sooner.

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 11:05 pm
Yeah; I'm with ya Carrie. (Thanks Barry!)

Dipshit stuff like "we hit on point #9". Not even close; if corporations were protected then healthcare wouldn't need to spends millions per month on lobbyists in this REPUBLIC which is not in any way shape or form fascist. Here's how to klnow:

Point #1. Have a functioning brain cell

Point #2. Use it

Jeez Louise

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 9, 2009, 11:30 pm
True that Barry:

"The far right has no constructive ideas"

No influence either; they're compltely marginalized afterhaving things their way. No doubt that's why they're panicking and coming up with so much reactionary nonsense and Buchanan and the Foxies are reaching out to racists.

You gotta wonder if these dips ever think in terms of what might actually bring them back into the wolrd of the relevant. Utterly amazing.



Sunday August 9, 2009, 11:54 pm
ON THE BRINK is from the past. IT's ALREADY IN FULL FORCE!!!!!

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:03 am
Lucky in art; unlucky in brains. Astonishing.

sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:08 am
We all know here what is going on, who is behind it and what their game is. But, what I want to now is why we keep on protecting them?
We still use banks, credit cards, loans, GM foods and send or kids to the shrinks and local pharmacy.
These are some things WE can do to curb their appetite.

They, hide behind Psychiatry. Remember Hitler was funded and so were there the Psychiatrists who were performing experiments on concentration camp victims. The Elite are on EVERY mental health board worldwide and all you have to do is look at the 5 healthcare bills to see Psychiatry setting up permanent shop in or schools being allowed to screen our young and every pregnant mother. Their new Diagnostic Statistical Manual (DSM) will be presented soon and will have everything, including the kitchen sink as a disorder. This will be the payoff for Big Pharma for allowing a new health system while our nation is further subdued by heavy and dangerous drugs and more experimentation on not only us but our animals.

Allow Psychiatry and Big Pharma to get a deeper hold and we are doomed!

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:39 am
Hi Sue,

Indeed, "We still use banks, credit cards, loans ..." It's the Holy Grail in this country: handle the transaction and collect a fee every time someone spends a dime.

That's the parallel to our insurance/Wall Street-run healthcare. Insurance companies get to handle the $3 Trillion annually that's spent on healthcare and then dole it out as they see fit. Neither patients nor healthcare providers get to make the decisions. We're all subject to the profit motives of the insurance companies, whose only oversight is the politicians they lobby and contribute to the tune of many millions per month, ironically, at the expense of the folks they're screwing (us)

We gotta loop them out, as the citizens of many other countries have. You gotta wonder how bad it need to get here before they ultimately screw themselves and we legislate them out of existence ... which is what happens in self-governed nations like the United States of America.


sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:54 am

Drugmakers ready $150 million for Obama plan
Boost would halt efforts to derail health-care overhaul
The Associated Press
updated 11:17 a.m. PT, Sat., Aug 8, 2009

WASHINGTON - U.S. drugmakers stand ready to spend $150 million to help President Barack Obama overhaul health care this fall, according to numerous officials, a staggering sum that could dwarf attempts to derail Obama's top domestic priority.

The White House and allies in Congress are well aware of the effort by Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, a somewhat surprising political alliance, given the drug industry's recent history of siding with Republicans and the Democrats' disdain for special interests.

The campaign, now in its early stages, includes television advertising under PhRMA's own name and commercials aired in conjunction with the liberal group, Families USA.

Numerous people with knowledge of PhRMA's plans said they had been told it would likely reach $150 million and perhaps $200 million. They spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to divulge details.

Additionally, the industry is the major contributor to Healthy Economy Now, which recently completed a $12 million round of advertising nationally and in several states. The ads were made by firms with close ties to Democrats and the White House and generally reflected the administration's changing rhetoric on health care.

In an interview, Ken Johnson, senior vice president of PhRMA, said, "We will have a significant presence over the August recess, both on television and newspapers and on radio, but we have not finalized details for our fall campaign."

Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, said the partnership with the deep-pocketed drug industry is one of mutual self-interest, even though the two groups disagree on numerous issues. "We want to achieve coverage for everyone. For PhRMA, this would improve volume for prescription sales because everyone" would have better access to medicine, he said.

Any health care bill that makes it to Obama's desk is expected to extend health insurance to the nearly 50 million who now lack it. That would mean a huge new pool of potential customers for drug companies and other health care providers. That, in turn, has created an incentive to offer concessions to the White House and lawmakers in hopes of shaping the bill, rather than simply opposing it.

Drugmakers were the first group to reach agreement with the White House and Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, a Montana Democrat, announcing several weeks ago that they would absorb $80 billion in costs over a decade.

Even before the announcement, according to several individuals, the White House sought help from PhRMA in passing legislation.

Now, with the legislation under attack, the industry is providing key support during August as Republicans work to inflict a high-profile defeat on the president.

A significantly more ambitious advertising effort by PhRMA is expected to begin near Labor Day.

Jim Messina, a deputy White House chief of staff who is deeply involved in the administration's health care effort, brought Democratic senators up to date recently on the help PhRMA, labor unions and other outside groups are providing.

At the same time, the drugmakers are counting on the White House to block efforts by House Democrats to extract more than $80 billion from their industry in the legislation.

The partnership is complicated because many Democrats in both the House and Senate oppose key goals of the drug industry. Liberals, in particular, favor the importation of prescription medicine from Canada and other countries. They also want the government to have authority to negotiate directly with companies for lower drug prices under Medicare.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a Democrat from California, has been critical of drug manufacturers, and Rep. Henry Waxman, also a California Democrat and chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, said several weeks ago the House was not bound by PhRMA and Baucus' agreement.

By the White House tally, overall advertising so far by PhRMA and other supporters of the bill has swamped efforts by opponents. Republican strategists concede it would be extremely difficult to match an effort of the size PhRMA is planning.

For comparative purposes, 2008 Republican presidential candidate John McCain was limited to spending $84 million a year ago when he accepted government funding for his fall campaign.

Independent calculations show Healthy Economy Now has spent about $12 million on three ads that ran nationally and in 17 states and the District of Columbia.

The messages meshed with the White House's changing rhetoric. An ad that began in mid-June said patients would be able to choose their own doctors. Another, launched in mid-July, focused on consumer protections, including a ban on insurance companies denying coverage due to pre-existing medical conditions.

To make the ads, the group hired GMMB, a political consulting and advocacy advertising firm with close ties to the White House and Senate Democrats, as well as AKPD, top White House strategist David Axelrod's former firm.

Jeremy Van Ess, a spokesman for Health Economy Now, said the decisions were made by the organization, and not at the White House's request.

"Absolutely not. ... It's no secret in Washington that these two firms we had are the best out there," he said.

PhRMA/Families USA spent about $5.7 million in nationwide advertising for the two months ending Aug. 9, according to information compiled by a different organization.

Two weeks ago, the drug industry added another weapon to its arsenal, launching a series of ads under its own name in a few key states at a cost of about $1 million so far.

Among them is Nevada, where the industry has purchased time through Labor Day to air commercials thanking Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid for his efforts to pass health care reform. Reid's public approval is weak in the state, although he does not yet have a Republican opponent for 2010.

While the White House and Democrats benefit from PhRMA's help, they seem reluctant to discuss it openly.

When PhRMA became the first big health care provider to agree to accept reductions as part of legislation, Obama made the announcement at the White House with the head of AARP in attendance. Billy Tauzin, the former Republican congressman who is head of PhRMA, was not invited.

More recently, Reid omitted the drugmakers from a list of outside interests trying to help pass legislation.

The drug industry's campaign is the culmination of a broader shift it has undertaken. A few years ago, the industry hired Steve McMahon, a longtime Democratic strategist, to oversee its political advertising.

Drugmakers have also funneled more money to Democrats in recent years, a trend that began soon after they gained control of Congress.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:59 am
Big Pharma is a 300 billion dollar industry. I am sure that 150 million would and could be expanded at a flick of the wrist. The exchange would of course be our youth sent to the pharmacy to expand that 300 billion tenfold. The basis of keeping a subdued and indentured society.


sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:05 am
Jim, 3 trillion annually should be enough to keep everyone healthy and still pay a good salary to insurance!

I suggest we all take a look at FAIRTAX.ORG as a start to some good USA reform and get rid of the Fed Reserve. It is owned by Rockefeller and the Queen B' of Engalnd.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:22 am
You're not understanding, are you Sue? We don't pay a salary to insurance companies; they tell us what to pay them and then decide what our doctors and hospitals are to be paid. (procedure X gets paid Y)

You cannot have a people-run system while insurance companies are in control. That's why we need our representative govenrment in control, so that our needs are met. If not, we replace the government leaders with new ones who will meet our needs. It's a Republic aka Representative Democracy kinda thing. Pretty nifty form of government, wouldn't you agree?

Kathleen R (983)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:31 am
Patriotism is supposed to be an example of caring enough to continue improving the nation for ALL citizens!!!
Bush & Gang were indeed VERY Fascist-like. Socialism should not be considered a "bad word". Democratic socialism works for the good of ALL and does NOT mean "The Commies are coming"!! I am impressed that Obama & Gang have been able to improve things as much as they have in such a short time. It is far too soon to say he is a bad President!! Taxes are good when governed correctly, especially for something so important as healthcare for everyone!!
Thanks, Carole!!!

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:50 am
Plus it's interesting you mention "big" pharma. At at measly $300 billion they're a distant player when it comes to the lobbying power of a $3 trillion dollar industry. BIG insurance might have to cut what's paid for "big" pharma's stuff if we the people squeeze some extra access and coverages out of BIG insurance. They'll need to preserve profits from someone, and the docs and hospitals are already hard-hit.

Puny little big pharma is probably squirming with all this talk of "reform" which appears to be more concerned with the needs of BIG insurance than those of the patients and healthcare providers. (us)

So Dems in Congress and Obama need to also remember this is a Representative Democracy. They're easily replaced, which I'd do in a heartbeat even though I voted and contributed to their elections. Now they work for us, lest they forget and we can fire their asses as easily as we elected them.

In fact, we who voted for them are the only ones they can diappoint (lose). The right wingers are against them no matter what. Hopefully this will post will be sent to the White House fact-checking squad.

Liisten up gov -- you work for us.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:54 am
Geez Kathleen,

Bush was an affable guy with whom one might like to have a beer, but a nightmare as our elected leader. Our fault, not his. Stupid policies sure; but I still like the man.

And he is no fascist ... not even in the same time zone as fascist. Let's be real here.



Fiona O (561)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:45 am
I know for a fact that the paranoid delusions of forced vaccinations is incorrect. I am a seriously ill diabetic and I was recently exposed to the flu and I was denied in my request because the doctors told me that there is not enough of the vaccine available to the group, pregnant women, who need to take it. So how is it that there is not enough vaccine for those who need it, How can they force us to take the vaccination when they themselves admit that that the do not have the necessary amount available. This is pure rumor mongering and paranoia.

A new day dawn when the people had their say on election day 08. Bush was learning towards fascism but Obama wants a transparent white house.

It is time for the Bush inspired paranoia to go the way of Bush - out.t

Fiona O (561)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:49 am
Please pardon my spelling in the above comment -- the debate is so outlandish in the first place, I was annoyed.

Nancy L (141)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:57 am
Obama and transparent should never be used in the same sentence. Obama and transparency don't even exist on the same planet.

Cynthia Davis (340)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:58 am
I can't spell either Betsy. Don't worry about the spelling you can tell I don't wory bout min.

Cynthia Davis (340)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:01 am
I am not going to say anything about planets or were people may come from.

Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:09 am
"(Except for Marion, that is, who sent Carrie a link to an offensive, pro-Nazi song " missed the boat. It left the dock weeks ago. This song/production is not pro-nazi. This is a campy tune to show how easy people can be talked into nazism/fascism without even knowing it. See the horror on the audience's faces in the beginning? However, after seeing Hitler appear as gay and self-defacing, they find humor in it.

This is to show how Americans can believe anything horrible, immoral (racism, wars, fascism) if presented in a cheesy, acceptable way. Without thinking, the mob will follow the lead of a few idiots and wave their false flags.

To be clear: This song is a PUT DOWN on nazism, fascism, and right-wing ideology.

Rather than shoot from the hip, why not look up the description or background on things you don't understand?

Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:31 am
Speaking of shooting from the hip, here's a nice little piece on character, principles and partisanship I hope you all will appreciate...

"The Clouded Lens of Partisanship

If a person asserted a Constitutional right to prevent the government from doing something the President or Congress wanted to do, would you call him or her a conservative or a liberal? Would you support or oppose the position?

In today’s blindly partisan world, the answer would seem to depend on what right the person was asserting and whether you sympathize with the claim.

Thus, if someone opposes laws allowing gay marriages or abortions or restricting gun ownership, you’re likely to label her a conservative. If you have conservative leanings, you’d probably support her.

On the other hand, if someone opposes attempts to limit free speech, supports laws providing free medical care, or prohibits torture, the person would likely be called a liberal. If you agree with him, you’d likely to approve his use of the Constitution.

My point is, many people only see the world through the clouded lenses of their political and social ideologies. They subordinate principles to partisanship and create a world where those who agree with them are inherently smart and good and those who don’t are stupid and evil.

Partisanship often leads to prejudice, precluding the fair evaluation of new facts. It also leads to self-righteousness and intolerance. The problem isn’t with deeply held convictions, it’s that too many people think that the more intensely they believe something, the more likely it is that they’re right.

Ranting and name-calling by both the left and right do a disservice to our country. They promote picking sides rather than analyzing issues.

The social positions of people of character are governed by reflective reasoning, not reflexive responses; by logic, not loyalty; and by consistency with enduring principles, not political parties.

This is Michael Josephson reminding you that character counts.

As a retired instructor, I am continuously appalled and surprised at how people comment and opine on topics they have not researched thoroughly from both sides. This was something I pressed my students (college) on and which all college students learn from day 1: do your homework, understand both sides, study from reputable sources, leave your biases at home, ask questions when you don't know, stop trying to be seen as knowledgeable when you don't know.

From the ignorance I see on this topic, around the boards and in the US, our country is illiterate and doesn't even know it. We have an educated, competent president who can actually help us. No, he's not perfect. He cannot wave the magic wand and give all of us what we want. He fights congress, big business, the controlling elites AND racism and ignorance. There are certain issues he has implemented that I'm not happy about (bailing out the banks, continuing the wars). But I know there are forces beyond his control that he has to go along with in order to get his larger agenda out (domestic economy, help the middle class).

If you fear Obama's agenda, read his books, read his agenda at He hasn't changed much from the activist in college who helped the poor get jobs and an education. He knew long ago that without an education, America would decline. I see that right here in this thread, around the boards, in townhall meetings, around the country. People, we are IGNORANT and don't even know it. This is what is causing the country to fail. And we listen to the talking heads because we don't know how to read and do the research. Obama may not be the best person for MY agenda, but he's the best we have right now.


Elderberry T (201)
Monday August 10, 2009, 8:39 am
Not to go off topic but in answer to....Betsy
Re "paranoid delusions" howcome?? MANDATORY means forced.....
H1N1 Pandemic: Pentagon Planning Deployment of Troops in Support of Nationwide Vaccination
Militarization of public health in the case of emergency is now official

It is Official: WHO Recommends Mandatory Injections to Almost Two Hundred Countries
Executives from Baxter, Novartis, Glaxo-Smith Kline, and Sanofi Pasteur have seats at the advisory group that on July 13th recommended mandatory H1N1 vaccination of everyone in all 194 countries that belong to the World Health Organization (WHO), according to a report just issued by journalist Jane Burgermeister. WHO spokesperson Alphaluck Bhatiasevi confirmed that Dr. Margaret Chan did not give the press briefing at WHO headquarters in Geneva as anticipated. At short notice, Dr. Marie-Paule Kieny stepped in to announce that "vaccines will be needed in all countries."

Elderberry T (201)
Monday August 10, 2009, 8:42 am
Plz take a look at this news re indefinite detention....

David Cutter (14)
Monday August 10, 2009, 9:13 am
Based on the best-selling book by Naomi Wolf, THE END OF AMERICA details the ten steps a country takes when it slides toward Fascism. ...

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 9:16 am

Excellent information, David . . . Thank you! (I've bookmarked it for later reference.)

Lynda L (96)
Monday August 10, 2009, 10:00 am
NO, we are not on the brink of fascism, but we are on the brink of stupidity! The health care industry is spending over a MILLION A DAY to stop us from a Public Option that will take away from THEIR GREEDY EVER GROWING PROFITS!! THEY ARE BUSSING IN PEOPLE TO town meetings DAILY TO CAUSE TROUBLE AND THEY ARE EVEN GIVEN A manifesto to read while there to stop us from getting health care and disrupt the meetings, THESE ARE NOT NORMAL PEOPLE AT THESE MEETINGS! These are paid, bussed in people meant to keep us enslavemented by the health care industry and insurance co's that are PAYING TO STOP THIS BILL AND SAVE THEIR PROFITS NOT US! Health care has gone up and up and we get less, Wake up people!!! That 14% that loved Bush are the same people who are stopping this Bill that will help us,and it IS because they are this stupid.ARE WE???
France and Canada don't spend much on health care and they get better care then we do for less and they live longer and pay a lot less, why do U want to pay more for less people??! Wake up, while Congress is home, and they have free insurance on us, call and write them and force them to give us a choice between FOR PROFIT HEALTH CARE AND GREED, VS A PUBLIC OPTION that is afordable! We need a public option, NO it is NOT "Socialism".. That idea was planted by THE HEALTH AND INSURANCE COMPNAIES TO SAVE THEIR GREEDY PROFITS, NOT US, and ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE THERE NONSENSE. Vote Public option!

Monday August 10, 2009, 10:34 am

Monday August 10, 2009, 10:36 am

Janet G (108)
Monday August 10, 2009, 10:45 am
Carrie, Carrie and to all the Gentlemen that feel like you there is also medication you can take now for all of your blindness and maybe you're on some now that causes so much of your apathy. It will also help you understand that the foolish and hypocritical words coming out of your mouth is just that, FOOLISH, IGNORANT INSULTING AND HYPOCRITICAL! No, you aren't insulting anyone, just everyone that doesn't think or go along with you and your Bushlike consciousness (of course you like the fellow) and as far as Carole acting as moderator, she is simply exposing the truth which you are obviously in denial of and perhaps you should go hide your head back in the sand in the BUSH and have another beer. I am an individual and whatever I post is what I feel and learn and can see very clearly, not what anyone else feels. Wake up, Mr. Carrie, if you don't. I guarantee you will abruptly wake up not far off down the road. Good day Gentleman!

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 10:49 am
Thank you Lynda!

"NO, we are not on the brink of fascism, but we are on the brink of stupidity!"

No truer words have been spoken here in. Kudos L!


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 10:59 am
Jeez, Kirsten! Soylent Green??? I doubted it could get any nuttier than fascism, but dang if you didn't prove me wrong. Whew.

No worries. We're not eating our young nor old, even unwittingly. We do have expensive insurance-controlled healtcare (#1 in cost by a bunch). We also kill too many of our young (45th on the list of lowest infant mortality, by counntry), and our old aren't getting as old (50th on the list of nations with longer life expectancy).

But don't take my word for it. Check it out. CIA World Factbook, or any other objective info-only site. Maybe I'm full of shit. Decide on your own ... then we might be less on the brink that Lynda warns us of.


Carrie B (306)
Monday August 10, 2009, 11:18 am
Wow Jan, you just accused me and a few others of doing exactly what you were in the process of doing. Insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you and your moderator pal. That's rich! By the way, I notice Frau Moderator never scolds any of her little flunkies.

Janet G (108)
Monday August 10, 2009, 11:32 am
Thank you Carrie! Just thought you could use another beer or another pill, no harm intended.

Blue Bunting (855)
Monday August 10, 2009, 11:47 am
Wherever there's a RepubliCON angry mob ... alway$ follow the money ...

Coal Lobby’s ‘Purest Form Of Grassroots’ Delivered By GOP Voter Fraud Company

Paid staff will both call people already on the group’s list and talk to other people at public events, asking them if they want information or T-shirts or would be interested in asking a question at a town hall meeting. “This is the purest form of grassroots,” Lucas said. “It’s facilitating constituents to talk one-on-one with members of Congress.

The new project will use 225,000 volunteers dubbed “America’s Power Army.” They will visit town hall meetings, fairs and other functions attended by members of Congress and ask misleading questions about energy policy.

Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies
Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:05 pm

Shamefully, this thread has now been so successfully derailed and sabotaged by vicious "one-up-manship" and vitriol that any attempt to salvage it has become a moot point.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:32 pm
Just Carole, thank you for brining the topic.
Carrie, thank you for bringing common sense.
Guys, thanks God we are very far from fascism. Some people try to use this word instead of bogeyman, but it's not.

Carole, when somebody will tell you stop posting on Care2 until the censore approves - that would mean the beginning, Until then - enjoy life. Life is good and you are good looking.


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:33 pm
You're killing me J Carole. Really? You think there's some shameful stuff goin' on here?

Absolutely astonshing. That someone with the gaul to compare our society and system of government to that of Nazi Germany would presume to shame anyone is truly mind-boggling.


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:36 pm
"NO, we are not on the brink of fascism, but we are on the brink of stupidity!"...WAY OVER THE BRINK Lynda...The government has left the room...Corporate dictators took over long ago...

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:46 pm
Marion--So you sent Carrie a Nazi/Fascist-themed video because you think she's a peach and you agree with everything she says, right?

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 12:58 pm
It'sbvious that after several days of vitriolic finger-pointing, accusations, name-calling, insults, and all-aroung ranting and raving, we have finally reached a consensus: I'm a Fascist because I'm a Liberal and want healthcare reform and you're a Fascist because you're a Conservative and don't. Now that we all agree, anybody want to discuss what we ought to do about healthcare reform?

Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:10 pm

"The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people"

-Frank Kent

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

- George Bernard Shaw

"Patriotism is fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone and as irrational as a headless hen."

-Ambrose Bierce

Thank you for the article, Carole, and please don't worry: No one can sabotage the truth.


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:23 pm
"We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

-T Jefferson with editing assistance from fellow patriots

Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:33 pm
"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.": Joseph Goebbels was born in 1897 and died in 1945. Goebbels was Hitler's Minister of Propaganda

"The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and these are ignorance, superstition and incompetence." : Elbert Hubbard (American editor, publisher and writer, 1856-1915)


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:38 pm

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history."

-John Adams, principle author US Constitution; 2nd Presdient, USA

Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:40 pm
"We're not a democracy. It's a terrible misunderstanding and a slander to the idea of democracy to call us that. In reality, we're a plutocracy: a government by the wealthy."

Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason"

Sir John Harrington

Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:45 pm

"What luck for the rulers that men do not think." : Adolf Hitler German Nazi dictator, orator, & politician (1889 - 1945)

"The soul of our country needs to be awakened . . .When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders": Veterans Fast for Life

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" Albert Einstein

"...but I affirm, with intense conviction, the Truth is on the march and nothing will stop it." — Émile Zola

Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:47 pm
Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage: Ambrose Bierce


Brigitte T (69)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:49 pm
How Corrupt is the Economic System of the U.S.A. Today?

By Bob Kendall

The 30 nation survey of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in 2008 placed the poverty rate of the U.S.A. only above Mexico and Turkey.

No longer tracking after this... Au revoir!

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 1:49 pm

Great stuff. Thinking people cannot be ruled by tyrants.

And ignorance is the greatest impediment to a functioning democracy. Fear and superstition are our only enemies.

David Cutter (14)
Monday August 10, 2009, 2:39 pm
if we look back to German society of the twenties and thirties, we find a civilized culture not so unlike our own. As a nation, Germany took pride in its art, its culture, and its science. People engaged in business, went shopping, enjoyed their families, followed the news. Genocide did not seem a likely development. But the seeds had already sprouted, though few foresaw into what kind of twisting vines they would soon grow.

Lessons from History: >a href="">The Nazi Euthanasia Program: Forerunner of Obama's Death Council

David Cutter (14)
Monday August 10, 2009, 2:41 pm
Lessons from History: The Nazi Euthanasia Program: Forerunner of Obama's Death Council

H Nick H (1826)
Monday August 10, 2009, 2:53 pm
It seems to me that the use of FEAR and SWIFTBOATING are the relms of the republicans. I've seen for myself what they have done in the past. There are many good republicans, but it's not the same party I was a memeber of some time ago. They have been taken over by real rigth wing (what ever you call them), but groups of men who have their own agenda for power and greed.

I've watched these debates, and republicans do NOT offer any good or positive ideas, but rather want to say NO, tear down any good things that come along. And now with the insurance companies and republicans paying off or directing people to disrupt and good discussion on health care (or any other good thing), then, yes, it does seem like tatics of Facisits. It's not American. We can disagree, but not the mob scenes I've seen lately.

We need health care reform NOW. Republicans have been in control for over 40 years and have done nothing towards this, only derail or stop any positive progress. I just wish Obama and the democrates would get the ba_ls and help ALL Amerians, not just the rich and well connected.

With all that I see, we seem to be growing towards a very selfish nation. We need to wake up and learn, that we are all connected.

H Nick H (1826)
Monday August 10, 2009, 2:55 pm
Like David who said, Obama's death coulncle. BS Just misinformation and lies spread by the far rigth. If people would take time and use their brain to check things out, they would see this is a lie. What makes it worse is for those who spread such lies and decete. They are the evil ones of our nation, trying to tear us apart.

Blue Bunting (855)
Monday August 10, 2009, 2:58 pm
Pro-Life Republican Behind So-Called "Death Panels"

Melva H (93)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:33 pm
David Cutter, you can't possibly believe that Obama is Hitler reincarnated and is going to loose death squads on the public. I assume you are a Far Right Winger who has given up on the "Obama was not born American' and has taken up the equally ridiculous 'Obama is a Nazi and is going to kill us' mantra. I'd really rather think you are a hired troublemaker than believe you are so dumb as to believe the stupid lies you are being fed.and encouraged to spread. . Do some serious research not run by the Extreme Right or their corporate backers. There are news sites that report straight news, without trying to feed pap from either extreme....What are YOU, personally, going to reap from keeping Americans from having decent, affordable health insurance?? And is it worth whatever you have been promised, even on the unlikely chance that they will uphold their end of the deal?

Judy C (83)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:48 pm
Obama doesn't have to be Hitler's reincarnation to be able to carry off the NWO plans for global control. You are living in Neverland if you think he is anything more than the flack-catcher.

The Nazis never went away....they just went underground. Book Description

Throw out everything you think you know about history. Close the approved textbooks, turn off the corporate mass media, and whatever you do, don't believe anything you hear from the government—The Rise of the Fourth Reich reveals the truth about American power. In this explosive new book, the legendary Jim Marrs, author of the underground bestseller Rule by Secrecy, reveals the frighteningly real possibility that today the United States is becoming the Fourth Reich, the continuation of an ideology thought to have been vanquished more than a half century ago.

This concept may seem absurd to those who cannot see past the rose-colored spin, hype, and disinformation poured out daily by the media conglomerates—most of which are owned by the very same families and corporations who supported the Nazis before World War II. But as Marrs precisely explains, National Socialism never died, but rather its hideous philosophy is alive and active in modern America. Unfortunately, most people cannot understand the shadowy links between fascism and corporate power, the military, and our elected leaders.

While the United States helped defeat the Germans in World War II, we failed to defeat the Nazis. At the end of the war, ranking Nazis, along with their young and fanatical protégés, used the loot of Europe to create corporate front companies in many countries, including the United States of America. Utilizing their stolen wealth, men with Nazi backgrounds and mentalities wormed their way into corporate America, slowly buying up and consolidating companies into giant multinational conglomerates. Many thousands of other Nazis came to the United States under classified programs such as Project Paperclip. They brought with them miraculous weapon technology that helped win the space race but they also brought their insidious Nazi philosophy within our borders. This ideology based on the authoritarian premise that the end justifies the means—including unprovoked wars of aggression and curtailment of individual liberties—has gained an iron hold in the "land of the free and the home of the brave."

For the first time Jim Marrs has gathered compelling evidence that an effort has been underway for the past sixty years to bring a form of National Socialism to modern America, creating in essence a modern empire—or "Fourth Reich"!

Blue Bunting (855)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:50 pm
Judy's Canadian Prime Mini$ter is now in Mexico $elling Canada out!

Carrie B (306)
Monday August 10, 2009, 3:54 pm
David, it's people like you who really terrify me. You have no idea what you are talking about, but you just keep talking! Your particular type fear mongering rhetoric about Obama is dangerous and destructive.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:20 pm
Not the New World Order!!! Crap I was having to worry about Nazi Amerika 2010, now the Elders of Zion are bringing their Judeo-Masonic world domination down on our heads. Christ! And I was wasting all the time worrying about uninsured sick folks. They'll be glad they died once the New/Nazi/Zion World Order steps in controls our every thought!!!


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:27 pm
Plus you city folk will never know the fear we more rural types have to live with every single night of our terrifying lives: Aliens! (and not the kind from Mexico, who probably also experiment on us).

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:38 pm

That actually made me chuckle, Jim.

(Thanks, from a former Los Angeles city lady, now living in rural Tennessee . . . and loving it!)

Lynda L (96)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:45 pm
I know people who survived the Holicost and I know people who died then. Shame on you who are out there, who refer to what Obama is trying to help us with, with Health care for ALL people that is affordable to Nazi anything!! .You have NO IDEA what you are talking about! You have no idea the suffering and the loss of these people, shame on your ignorance using an expression some corporate person sold you to spout to stop their prfits from being lost. How dare you use a term so losely that you have no idea about.. I don't care what book (fiction) you read, Obama is not some Nazi transplant, perhaps you are a birther also? To claim he is trying to bring about a Nazi america, simply because he wants to give all americans health care is too stupid for words and I'd bet many in here are to nice to say so. To believe that garbage is to buy into the over a million a day the corp health care system is paying to stop us from harming THEIR PROFITS by realizing how little they really pay out to help us,versis their profit margins. Do you know what their profits are?. It's about them not us again> Wake up.
Some of you really are screwing things up for those of us that want change in the PRO PROFIT health care system that costs too much and is bad and the New plan needs a chance to work. Kids need health care, this is the only way some will ever get health care. Why not insure everyone in america? If we can afford wars for Haliburtons profit, we can afford health care for all.... Why not a New Plan that is affordable, why not pay less to get more for a change, or are we afraid to save money and get better care??

Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:53 pm
What's really behind the fear of Obama...

sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:55 pm
The sad thing is that people in this country are in so desperate need for healthcare they will take ANYTHING no matter who gets hurt. I come from a country with socialized medicine and it is great. It by far out weighs anything the US has or ever will have. If any of you people think we are going to get the same as what Europe has or anything near it without paying a price then you are really naive.
These people are in so deep with our gov, they are our gov! You really think that they will give up what they have without a fight or get something equal in exchange? I dunno, would you give up your livelyhood that easy? Who do you think co owns Monsanto?

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:55 pm

GREAT reference, Marion!

I read that earlier today, and loved it. I only hope those (who really need to) will at least try to see its wisdom.


Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:57 pm
Thanks J Carole,

Lovin' it too. Things get kinda loopy here in Gainesville TX. But North Central Texas was the home of a national treasure: the late great Molly Ivins whose advice to all was: Raise Hell; and have fun doing it.

Another Texas original, the late great Bill Hicks would query in his comedy routines, "Why is it that aliens always land in places like [Gainesville TX]? Perhaps they're not super-intelligent beings. Kind of an inter-galactic Jobe family." Cracks me up. But if can't make fun of ourselves, it's gets pretty anal. Cheers, JC.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 4:58 pm

Sue, what you're saying (about this country's deplorable standing as far as healthcare) is absolutely true.

As I said earlier in this thread, "Honestly? I don't understand why so many people are afraid of Socialism."

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:01 pm
Well said Lynda. Thanks.

Yep; Obama taught constitutional law at the college level. My money is on him being a fan of a republican form of government and the rule of law. Aliens notwithstanding, I sleep nights.



Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:15 pm
Hi J Carole,

Perhaps it's socialism they fear. Indeed, no one would want to live under socialism. "Socialized" medicine is of course different. It just removes the cost component of insurance company profits and overhead (much higher than goverment plans like Medicare). Some of that cost comes back in the form of extra services. But essentially, as proven time and again in other countries, folks save a bundle and get the same services they always did from the same docs and hospitals (assuming aliens don't abduct them).

Meanwhile capitalists can still go hog wild in the pursuit of wealth (in stark contrast to Socilaist societies) since business opps abound; just not one that involves collecting the money that's spent on healthcare and then doling it out as they see fit while keeping a huge chunk for themself -- we, through our elected reps, make those decisions on care and how all the money is spent.

Best of both worlds.


Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:19 pm
1 million go bankrupt each year due to no health insurance.
18,000 die each year due to no health insurance.
These numbers will increase exponentially without health care reform.
Will you be next?


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:26 pm

Well, that's what I'm thinking.

Frankly, I don't know how any "fair-thinking" person can justify a country of this one's wealth not appreciating the benefits of offering its citizens universal healthcare. I think "socialized medicine" (like "communism") is being used as a scare tactic by lobbyists for insurance companies.

It's unconscionable that there are approx. 50,000,000 U.S. citizens who have fallen between the cracks and, although working, make too much money to qualify for federal assistance, but not enough to afford private health plans.

THEN, you have people with devastating illnesses who are being driven to bankruptcy because they CANNOT get coverage elsewhere (due to pre-existing conditions), and are being gouged by their insurance companies with outrageous increases. (A form of extortion, in my opinion.)

Something must be done!

Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:32 pm
"ust misinformation and lies spread by the far[right]."

Well said, Nick.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:44 pm

Also, for those who questioned my stance on universal health care, let me explain something. This particular article does NOT concern health care, so I was reluctant to muddy the waters.

However, since everyone is intent upon discussing the issue of health care -- LET'S HAVE AT IT!


I believe that healthcare reform is THE single-most important issue facing U.S. citizens at this time, and it has been a looooooooooong time coming.

sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:45 pm
I agree Marion. There are waaaay too many on the streets who have lost their homes and families on the streets of LA. Most Americans were one pay check away from poverty before the economy, I wonder what it is now?


sue M (184)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:55 pm
I grew up in England. Traveled all over Europe and never once had to pay for anything due to healthcare.
My brother and his family still live there and his son just got over Osteosarcoma (bone cancer). He had his visit with his regular doctor and the got tests on his leg that very same day. He was sent to the best cancer hospital in England. Luckily for him it was in his own town. He saw the top doctors. Got several very complicated surgeries as the tumor was in a difficult place. They amputate here for the same thing. But, he kept his leg and is now cancer free after 2yrs of brutal chemo and bone graft. They never paid a penny and in addition the ambulance came and picked him up every time he had to go to the hospital and back. He also got a free car from the gov as he is now considered disabled. He dropped his crutches a month a go and is now running and took his first driving lesson last week in his free car.
My brother got paid time off from his job to take care of his son by the gov.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 5:58 pm
Sure, it's all BS and they know it too. So as I'd ask in marketing meetings, what's the motivation?

My $0.02: they hate the thought of paying for something they might not want. Not unreasonable; we all fear that. So they fabricate fictions and wacky conspiracy theories in hopes of scring us off of something they fear they'll pay for but not want.

But does it make sense in the broader economic scheme of things. Nope. We pay way too much now; way more than citizens of every other nation on earth. Now it's 15.4 cents of evey dollar we spend in America, and it's going up fast. Last year it was 14.something cents per dollar spent in America. How bad does it have to get before we say HELL YEAH, take control of it? I don't want my Happy Meal to cost $6 because $1.50 is added to cover healthcare costs ... and we're not far from that senario consider healthcare cost's current trajectory.

Single-payer folks. Now or later. But it's inevitable.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:00 pm
Above was in response to Marion. Sorry, M. Best, JD

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:05 pm
Also, for anyone interested, I belong to a group here that could use more members, and is a great reference source:
Campaign for Universal Single Payer Health Care

H Nick H (1826)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:11 pm
Remember folks: (sorry to remind everyone). Right wing/repubs can NOT look at or THINK of anything else that what is fed to them. They are like sheep being constantly led by someone, be it Sara, Rush, Bush, etc. So whatever they hear from those sources is sollid gold to their ears, if they actually listen or look at anything else, they will turn into a pillar of salt.

Those of you with minds and who actually think will understand this. And these stupid people who are being sent (by the insurance industry) to disrupt meetings do not realize they are losing themselves by doing this. It's like they shout out, "Everyone who shouts out (like me) should be hanged." And when they are going to be hanged, can't imagine how it happened to themselves.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:18 pm
Yea J Carole! Maybe it not too late! Please everyone, at least consider it. You'll get more of what you want and pay less.

Plus if it's just Obama you don't like, cool. Add my grave disappointment (but I still like the man, as I do GW; hate the policies not the man). And I fear the reform package is just a bandaid, and insurance lobby approved. I donlt think we can afford healthcare and insurance company profits. Sorry. It's just too expensive.

We gotta have money for houses, our kids and their education, too. JMO.


Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:19 pm
"Sure, it's all BS and they know it too."

Jim ~ I agree. We desperately need single-payer. Every single tax-paying American is now paying over $1100 for the uninsured who tax the system. This amount will rise exponentially if we do nothing. Those who cry the loudest in opposition to health care reform most likely need this more than the rest...especially if they are on a fixed income.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:25 pm
I don't mind re-directing from my own news submission for something worthy . . . so here is another C2NN news story, just posted -- from Panda -- who is a devoted single-payer healthcare reform protagonist:
Inside Story On Town Hall Riots-Right Wing Shock Troops Do Corporate America's Dirty Work.


Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:30 pm
Sue ~ Thank you for your story on health care in Europe and England. I have two friends who are from England and have told me similar stories. This is the reason Americans are going bankrupt and losing their homes. They are one serious illness away from being destitute because of our broken health care system. Don't get me wrong: I love America. But I am appalled that many Americans think things are so much better here than in other countries.

If we listen to the propaganda only, we may never learn that the Emperor has no clothes on.

Carole ~ Sorry we hijacked this thread. I must move to your health care thread.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:31 pm
Great point. Uninsured are still getting served at tax-payer expense. (Already!) It's just that they have to fill our hospital emergency rooms, which costs tax-payers a bundle. It's way cheper if they can go to a community healthcare center or doc. Easy for them; cheap for us. Better America for our kids.

Kudos Marion!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 6:34 pm

Marion, that's okay.

It took me this long to figure out why everyone was being so hostile! (ROFLMAO) NOW, I realize that they all thought the subject matter was healthcare!

(Can't stop laughing and thinking of Roseann Roseanna Danna from SNL!)

Cynthia Davis (340)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:20 pm
Jim said, "And ignorance is the greatest impediment to a functioning democracy. Fear and superstition are our only enemies."

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Jim because you have done so within the last week.

Past Member (0)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:26 pm
Thank you Cynthia. All my best, Jim

Kelly C (176)
Monday August 10, 2009, 7:28 pm
I think we citizens should be aware of fascist moves of the predator bankers,arrogant CEO's and our elected politicians. Thanks, Just Carole.

H Nick H (1826)
Monday August 10, 2009, 8:23 pm
Kelly, you forgot to mention, in this case, the insurance industry which spent already 130 million on this and fund the busses etc for the town hall meetings. THEY DO NOT WANT REFORM.

The trick in any time you see something on politics, follow the money . I had a thought that I have shared before.

As in NASCAR racing, all the drivers wear blue suites with patches of those that give them money to sponsor them. Well, all politiicans should wear a similar uniform, and each company (like Exxon, Chase, Preduental), would have their patches worn by the politicians. (by their size) would show how much money each politician is getting and from whom. So when you vote, you know who has bribed them or paid them off.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday August 10, 2009, 8:25 pm


Great thought, Nick . . . However, we'd have to find an "honest politician," which we all know is an oxymoron.


Marion Y (322)
Monday August 10, 2009, 10:07 pm
Inside Story On Town Hall Riots-Right Wing Shock Troops Do Corporate America's Dirty Work.

Thanks for this link, Carole. It's possibly the best article I've read on the topic, and one of the best articles at AlterNet. A long read but well worth it.

Tuesday August 11, 2009, 9:45 am
Most of you I know wish we could just all agree to disagree and bring up EVERYONES opinions.

Tuesday August 11, 2009, 9:49 am
OOPs, when people reosrt to name calling on all that is viewed t makes them look as if they do not truly understand and use the names to cover up idiocy, no matter how sneakily one thinks they are in doing it.... please lets TALK, not abuse the net and sound ignorant.

Marion Y (322)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 9:56 am
"Marion--So you sent Carrie a Nazi/Fascist-themed video because you think she's a peach and you agree with everything she says, right?"

Barry ~ I'm sorry if that video upset you. It is campy, tongue in cheek and apparently you didn't see the humor in it. My views on this issue are about the same as yours: I'm a liberal and I believe we are in desperate need of health care reform. The Nazi video is a slam against nazis and fascism. You took it the wrong way.
Yes, Carrie is a peach and I agree with her views, for the most part.

The issue on the US on the brink of fascism...I think we were well on our way into the throes of fascism under the GWBush regime. Obama is correcting that. He can only do so much. With ReTHUGlican policies still in place, with a corrupt Congress to deal with, and with ignorant citizens who have no clue who to trust, Obama is doing the best he can.

Peace out.

Tuesday August 11, 2009, 10:15 am
all out there... read=ATLAS SHRUGGED" BY AYN RAND. IT IS THE SECOND LARGEST SELLING BOOK ONLY BEHIND THE BIBLE.. then and only then. tell me what you think......

Ann D (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 11:51 am
Unfortunately, the majority of Americans are 'party' people. They are either die hard republicans or die hard democrats. No matter who is running for office, they will always vote party. Get rid of the two parties, and vote for ourselves, not who the politicos want to shove down our throats. Congress should have term limits, just live the president and governors. They should not have retirements for live for serving American citizens who are losing their retirements and jobs. We need to get/go back to the basics of which our country was based on and rule accordingly. The greed and power has so infiltrated our politics/government that it would take ALL Americans to change the way we are. Doesn't matter who is sitting in the president's seat, Bush, Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter etc, they are all responsible for the mess we are in.

Marion Y (322)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 2:42 pm
Wow! I think you're attractive, Jim. I guess it's different strokes for different folks...

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 3:29 pm
Kristen--I have read "Atlas Shrugged." The abridged version: A bunch of saintly, zillionaire industrialists hiding in the hills waiting for the satanic liberals to destroy the world so they can return and rescue the remnants of humanity.

Marion Y (322)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 3:41 pm
Barry ~ Good comment.

Jim ~ My comment about you being attractive was due to a negative comment made about your picture. Apparently that comment was removed. Just didn't want you to think I was flirting with you.

Tuesday August 11, 2009, 3:56 pm
Being a floridan... we wen thru Jebby as we ALL called him, thankfully he went against w a few tme... still does not mean I'd never place my vote there....But lets see his wife LIED about her clothes fromPARIS// 20,000. yeah once cuaght she had to pay. but jebby s bette then what we've got .I am a DEMOCRAT, and yet I am ashamed.....

Carrie B (306)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 4:43 pm
Imagine this on a grander scale. I disagree with you, you disagree with me, and instead of facing the fact that, yes we disagree, one of us grabs our little crayon box, stomps off into the sunset and says "I won't be your friend anymore because you won't follow my orders and say and do what I said you should say and do. J Carole, your immaturity is showing.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 5:10 pm
Thanks Marion, and indeed, it might be the least attractive photo yet taken of me. Any worse and Micheal Jackson would have collected my bones (kidding; I think that's an urban legend) EM ugliness excuse: the GF caught me with a worldclass hangover and made it my desktop wallpaper (she has a fun sense of humor); it's all I had at the moment and a nice reminder that moderation has an upside. :^) Best, Jim.

PS; You're a looker too babe. Plus many thanks to whomever changed the subject from fascisim, even if that's an appraisal on my anti-magnetism. Anything's an improvement.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 5:16 pm
Hey Kristen, not worries. We have saying in TX and 48 other states: at it's not Mississippi!!! :^)

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 5:18 pm
Whew! Typo-checking has got to be my next 1.1 resolution!!! Try that again:

Hey Kristen, no worries. We have saying in TX and 48 other states: at least it's not Mississippi!!! :^)

Marion Y (322)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 7:01 pm
Thanks Jim. Although that pic is 32 years ago. A lot has happened since then. My husband still loves me though. We got bored talking about fascism and are easy to distract. By the way, we have flying saucers here in the desert too...

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 7:13 pm
Oh yeah; Area something or other. While aliens undoubtedly experiment on me nightly, the secret Air Force base thing seems a bit too incredulous. Clearly, our nation is not in commune with specifies of advanced intelliegence ... LOL. My best to you and Mr. Y.

Marion Y (322)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 7:22 pm
Area 51. You too? Actually, I think I arrived with the Star Fleet on an asteroid on its way to another planet. Got stuck here. Defective hatch door. Humanoids try my patience. Mr. Y swears I'm an alien. I can't bear to tell him he may be correct. Best to you and yours.

Yvonne White (229)
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 10:38 pm
Dudes, I'm stuck in Area 15 - dyslexic aliens & pi$$ed off cows! (Not mad, just really irritated!;) Rural Southern IL. is pretty kinky, judgemental as hell, and scared to death by MSM hysteria.. I drive around with my Obama 08 sticker still on my compact SUV just to freak 'em out!:)
Even Bu$h-the-Le$$er couldn't Quite pull off Fascism, but he got really close!

Cynthia Davis (340)
Wednesday August 12, 2009, 8:25 am
I'm living in the southern redneck part of VA and they don't like my impeach Bush and Cheney hat either.

Marion Y (322)
Wednesday August 12, 2009, 9:31 am
Amen, Yvonne and Cynthia. I live in Bush country here in the desert. Yet, I love these folks. I can go to the VFW Hall in town, argue till the sun comes up and still remain friends. Reason is we are all Americans, all human and have the same needs. Once we find that common ground, we're okay. Egos and ignorance tend to get in the way. I can also argue with Dems, Libs, Greens and Progs. Frankly, I'm a little bit of all political parties. Tolerance for each other is key. Communication. Respect.

Wednesday August 12, 2009, 1:01 pm
Oh my jim. Its a good thng i am livng in Fla. but born in NEW YORK..... I eget the feeling you are one of those 'machisma " guys and HATES to see a Woman n corntrol. what Iv Hillary one,(another case of al gorism) I in shock that you even have a companion,,,,,, that acually scares me more then your "beleifes....\

Thursday August 13, 2009, 2:32 pm
hmmmm....... I shall say it agan.. those that call names on the actual site... you need to learn a lil more.. maybe it WAS the Faux social studies makes or think .. theres a few books out there explaining all the LIES my teacher taught me... No matter what we all feel the truth will always come out... to bad you my not be around... as if you have tooooooo many illness.. EUTHANISIA.... or my bad... SOYLENT GREEN, OR HEY LOGANS RUN... AND I'D LIKE TO SAY TROLL jim... go away, you are annoying., and a bit of a droll.. pretty please....

Thursday August 13, 2009, 2:44 pm
Oh my GOD jim, that was sarcasm.. look it up we already see your thinkng is a bit off. jim i hope you are not sick or may have family that is... me=\
Rhuematiod arthitis
fibromyalgia, and ..manuy others,I got the hep c when I gave birth to my 23 year old duaghter,if you can recal that far back, they ahd just stared testing for aids, after 18 pints of blood I was told i was lucky... hmmm. lucky, would you feellucky jim,I am disabled I worked 2jobs for over 15 years and now the GOVT,,oops ,well after 4 years of fightng(try it its just so much fun) Idies 3 timeson the table my baby was born a month early and in the labor room as they could NOT move me.,Ive been thru hell in my life,raped,molested,and stuff I can not tothis day talk about..So jim,tellmewhy you think I should not be worried, Ill I dare you to tell me what makes you think I am WRONG> Again I DARE YOU JIM.

Carrie B (306)
Thursday August 13, 2009, 2:52 pm
Since I know the US is not on the brink of fascism and I don't see any point in responding to those who are either promoting hatred and inaccurate info, or those who are so easily mislead by their so called friends, I am signing off this really hate filled and unproductive board. Bye now.

Friday August 14, 2009, 12:21 pm
LINDA, I AM 44IVE GOT A BUNCH OD DISEASES, WHAT AREYOU ABOUT 20, MY GIRL IS 23 Has a super fantasic job and fiance. "green' is froma movie apylt named SOYLENT GREEN, rent it if you can also froma seris called Logans Run, my 3.8 cum laude gradute, deans list was thrilled w/ obama, till she "found
her 44 year old mom was not one of the people that would be safe.... Not sure how old you are but she immediately understood,, no meds no mom..... i have already been told 15 YEARS have been taken from me for my diseases... i never ever thought this wouldbe me,asmost under 25 ,they think kimmortality,untilmeddeath.wellhoney, I got hit w/mystuff at 30///never ever had any problemsnever knew I had all i have, But my girl is an only child, when I do die... I will never meet her children, be apart of her life, etc...t hink about that linda as you type.. think about no one. just you , youself and your cruel do not know me.every dr visit is scary, last time they told,e i am on the verge of diabetes.......scared yet? anyhting can happen, and i do mean anything. so stop being selfish and toalk to your parents , they will not be here forever.

Friday August 14, 2009, 12:31 pm
sorry my keys are has NOTHINGto do w/ being green, i am for the most part// ITS A MOVIE RENT IT.I died 3 times giving birthto my only child. as I has an emergency hysterectomy while in THE LABOUR ROOM, 18 pints 3 nights in ccu, afew in icu and no I can never ever have another. i wound up w/ Hep.C// really should checkinto this stuff as most will not be covered,and the dr's said if not The child came first... ready to die. just wanted a family??? doubtful.. she is 23 now works marketing at Canon, travels the world .. seriously, cum laude 3.8 and deans list 4 years, what about you lil girl....


Marion Y (322)
Friday August 14, 2009, 12:46 pm
Kristen...I'm glad your daughter survived and sounds like a wonderful, successful person. Bravo!

Something to share in this thread...

My 1933 Nightmare by the Regressive Antidote

The events of recent decades have been ominous.

The events of recent weeks more so.

It’s not so much, I guess, the visage of obese, over-fifty, white men angrily wrecking even the tattered remnants of the democratic process in this country that is most disturbing. We’ve seen that before.

I think it’s the willful ignorance translated into incoherent, and in fact ironically self-defeating, rage that I find most discouraging. Can we really live in a country populated by so many fools, people who can so readily, proudly and belligerently be made into tools of their own destruction? Can the greatest political, economic, cultural and military power on the world’s stage possibly be so incredibly backward at its core?

Consider this passage: “The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.”

These words were written by a person who might well now be vice-president of the United States, had the economic crash of our time come a few months later. And who, had that in fact transpired, and had one old man named McCain sometime later then met his actuarially not-improbable death, could have become the American president and leader of the free world.

So, okay, maybe that horror scenario is not so novel. After all, Nixon was in the White House for six years. And what was George W. Bush, really, other than Sarah Palin in trousers?

But what seems to me new about this moment is the political road rage, the thuggishness of masses of Americans who not only are venting about insane nonsense, not only are undermining their own interests acting as marionettes of laughing corporate predators, and not only are taking down democracy around themselves in order to do so, but are in fact also destroying the entire Enlightenment project of rationality-based management of public affairs as well. The single most frightening characteristic of this movement, to my mind, is that fact that no amount of evidence or logic could persuade these folks to abandon the lies they’ve attached themselves to, like a pit bull clamped to the leg of some poor SOB’s pants.

What does it take to get someone to the point that they believe that the US Congress is passing a healthcare reform bill that will allow the government to exterminate seniors? What does it take for them to impute that motive to a president from the feeble Democratic Party? And, at that, one of the most Milquetoastian creatures to hit Washington since Hubert Humphrey ran for president acting like he was a guy named Hubert Humphrey? From Minnesota, no less.

What do you have to do to humans to get them so stupefied that they believe Obama’s Hawaiian birth was some sort of conspiracy, replete with fake 1961 newspaper announcements? What sort of powerful drugs does one have to be on to make the argument that this rather considerably conservative president is a socialist? And then to call him a fascist in your next breath, blissfully unaware that the chasm separating the two ideologies not only makes them wholly different, but, indeed, oppositional. (You know, like in World War II. Maybe they’ve even heard of that.)

In fact, this is not a matter of stupidity, though there’s loads of that to go around. But I bet that when it comes to finding arcane deductions to insert into their tax forms, these folks are actually quite clever. I bet a lot of them could reel off sports statistics or bible verses that would put your head in a fog. No, it’s not stupidity. Something else is going on here.

...This, even after eight years of Bush, we’re supposed to believe is some sort of totalitarian imperial president hell-bent on bringing fascism to America???

No, this isn’t about lack of intellect or the remotest correspondence to reality. It seems pretty clear to me that this is almost entirely about fear. This is the empire crashing, and the former master class within it crashing as well. Both are falling to ordinariness and worse. They always were ordinary, of course, and always tools for exploitation by economic predators, but at least back in the day it wasn’t such a struggle to be middle class. And, most importantly, they could always feel good by telling each other that at least they were better than the hated bitches, darkies and fags. Oh, and Arabs. Beating them up, literally and figuratively, was (and remains) a good way to remind yourself of that superiority.

But now even that small bit of compensation is gone. Your country can’t win a war against a bunch of third world ragheads. Your boss is cutting your salary again. The womenfolk have their own source of income now, and no longer have to put up with your blundering sexual advances to keep a roof over their heads. Perverts are marrying each other left and right. And now – WTF? – there’s some Harvard-educated spade in the White House, along with, even worse, his uppity-looking Harvard-educated all-superior-like even spadier woman.

Of course, this has been going on since the 1970s, as America’s post-war hegemony began to erode internationally, and within the country white males were being challenged for their domestic dominance as well. These “Reagan Democrats” – i.e., consummately selfish pricks who were happy to take government largesse when it was helping to bring them into the middle class, but then immediately pulled the ladder up behind themselves afterwards, demanding tax cuts – began to lash out politically, responding to any line of crap that would harmonize with their embarrassing victimization trope by promising a feel-good response offering the muscular bludgeoning of women and dark people, both at home and abroad. In reality, of course, they were voting for a political movement that was talking tough-guy nationalism and scapegoating gays and other out-groups, but purely as a mask for further savaging the prosperity of these very idiot voters supporting their own undoing. In exchange for some cheap rhetoric and the occasional third-world war, they lost their unions, they lost their good jobs to cheap overseas (and, of course, violently non-organized) labor, they lost government benefits like inexpensive higher education, and they lost a society where the gap between the middle class and economic elites wasn’t on the order of a standard-issue banana republic.

So what’s different today? I think there are big differences – at least of degree – on six fronts.

First, there is a marriage of convenience today between the economic oligarchy and regressive politicians which makes the era of Dwight Eisenhower look like Sweden by comparison. I would say the single most fundamental fact of American politics in our time is that economic elites have walked away from the long-standing grand bargain of the 1930s through the 1970s. They are, simply put, no longer satisfied to be ridiculously wealthy, and now demand to be obscenely so. Instead of looking at the middle class as a source of national pride, it is for them an irritant to see even that small pittance of money in other people’s hands. And, thus, they are trying (and succeeding) at reversing the basic deal that brought so much prosperity to so many American families in the mid-twentieth century, seeking a return to the good old days of Herbert Hoover and Calvin Coolidge. Today’s Republican Party has become simply an instrument of that process – all the rest is window-dressing for marketing purposes. Perhaps the best exemplar of this imperative was the (so far) unsuccessful play at privatizing Social Security. Wall Street looks at that sitting mountain range of money – within view, but just beyond reach – in sheer ball-busting frustration. It is one of the few government activities (as opposed to healthcare, military hardware, prisons, etc. etc.) that the overclass hasn’t yet been able to profitize. Why should seniors have that money, they growl over brandy and cigars, when billionaires could instead? In short, the whole purpose of the political right has shifted dramatically in the past three decades. Now, it’s entirely about the money.

Second, the level of deceit has grown exponentially. Americans are now being told lies of astonishing proportions, as both the ‘birther’ and ‘deather’ movements of recent weeks make plain. Before those it was Obama the socialist, Obama the fascist, Obama the sell-out apologist for America, Obama the secret Muslim, Obama the underminer of national security, Obama the pal of terrorists, and so on, and so on. It’s to the point now that I feel sorry for satirists (including me). What can you possibly make up to top these amazing idiocies? Obama the Martian imposter of a homo sapien? Obama the JFK assassin? Obama the twentieth 9/11 hijacker? (Who secretly parachuted out at the last moment, and was picked up in the Hudson by a nuclear-powered speedboat driven by Saddam, and then transferred onto a black helicopter that landed minutes later on the roof of the UN!)

Third, the sophistication of presentation has grown dramatically. The right has really learned how to market its nonsense in a barrage that only enhances credibility from repetition. You get it on the radio, on TV, from politicians, at church, on your computer and cell phone, in your mailbox and at the school board meeting. This is a full-court press by clever people who know how to market soap flakes and the human kind as well. There are many examples of this, but one of the most clever has been the defining of wholly corporate center-right political figures like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama as extreme leftists, and the defining of the mainstream media as hopelessly biased toward liberalism. Perhaps as much as any other factors, these moves have employed framing and intimidation to effectively eliminate any real progressive ideas from the national political discourse. Bravo, boys. If it all wasn’t so sickeningly pernicious, I’d have to give them a standing ovation for cleverness and, sadly, success.

Fourth, the level of credulity is breathtaking. In the past, you could understand why a few crackers in ‘Bama, third-grade education and all, could be seduced into blamin’ the niggrahs for their lousy low-rent lives and joining up with the KKK. But look at the audiences today for Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and the rest of the scary monsters all over television and radio. These are giant crowds of tens of millions, especially collectively counted, and I don’t think these people are watching and listening just to laugh at the bozos on the air.

Speaking of whom, what in the world are these freaks doing on the air? What in the world happened to this country such that, fifth, all this massive deceit has gone mainstream in the media and the Republi-con Party? It’s astonishing today, from the perspective of prior decades, what comes out of the mouths even of leadership figures in one of America’s two major political parties, and what goes unchallenged as conventional wisdom. There have always been regressive predators about in American politics, to be sure. But in years past they would have been identified as such and marginalized accordingly. Today, they are more likely to become president or Speaker of the House, and a slavishly obedient media dares not correct even the most obscene lies having the most dangerous consequences (can you say “Iraq”?).

Finally, unlike prior decades, the progressive counter-narrative has all but vanished from the mainstream. The Democratic Party is nothing more than the sorta not-Republican Party, and stands for nothing other than a quieter and more slowly-unfolding version of the GOP’s crimes. Nobody ever votes Democratic anymore. They vote against the Republicans when they rise to their very most noxious worst behavior. We have a president who is supposed to be a radical leftist, and says almost nothing to combat the fascist tide of thuggery now threatening the country. Instead, he continues to seek approval from Republicans who never give it to him, game him at every turn, and repay his conciliatory efforts by asking for investigations into his birth certificate. Senator Chris Dodd responded to last week’s Reichstag-burning events with this helpful bromide: “It's a challenge, no question about it, and you've got to get out there and make the case. This is not the time for the faint-hearted.” After which he continued to lead the very faintest-of-heart in their deafening silence. Even supposedly liberal activist groups don’t demand very much anymore, other than the protection of the status quo. For example, there is pretty much no serious player in or out of government right now talking about a single-payer system at this once-per-century occasion of momentous potential change in the American healthcare system.

The upshot of all this is a predatory-when-not-defunct political system going so far off the rails that it is now migrating from insanity to violent insanity. Just ask your (former?) local abortion provider. Just ask your congressional representative, if you can penetrate the police escort now necessary to keep these people from becoming the victims of mob rule.

This should not be taken lightly. There is huge anger out there, being stoked incessantly by those who profit from it, in one way or another. Most frightening of all, it is, as far as I can see, completely impervious to rational discourse. Suppose you could put a mountain of indisputable evidence in front of the eyes of those who believe Obama is seeking to murder seniors. Does anyone think any of these folks could actually be persuaded to abandon that shockingly absurd fallacy?

And this is, at the end of the day, the scariest aspect of all concerning the current political moment. America now possesses a massive cohort of people who have simply transcended rational discourse – the sine qua non of democracy, and the real deity worshiped by Enlightenment figures like those who founded the country. Two-and-a-half centuries later, and we’re moving rapidly backwards, toward the seventeenth century, and away from democracy, rule of law and the marketplace of ideas, debated and thoughtfully considered.

Everybody talks about fascism nowadays, not least those on the right who remarkably manage to call Barack Obama a fascist in the same breath as they label him a socialist. The term has been beaten into near meaninglessness from ubiquitousness of application. (Could this be another extremely clever semantics ploy of the right-wing marketing machine, taking the term out of use now that it is legitimately applicable, by over- and ab-using it? Damn, these guys are good.)

Still, I’ve seen the video clips from the congressional constituent meetings last week. I saw the ones from the Sarah Palin rallies in 2008. I remember the 2000 Brooks Brothers riot, one of the most despicable acts in American history, which resulted – because of one of the most cowardly acts in American history – in shutting down vote-counting in Miami. I saw at least two purple-hearted American war heros turned into national security threats by a team of cowards who avoided war when it was their turn. None of the rabble on the right could make the Grand Canyon size leap to see that for what it plainly was. Today I see the incoherent rage, the senseless foaming at the mouth that not only doesn’t fit reality, but in fact runs completely contrary to it. I see the current attempts to intimidate the government and to shut down the discussion of issues.

And I have to ask, do those people not resemble Brown Shirts more than anything else one can bring to mind?

And is our current political moment not beginning to stink of Berlin, 1933?

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday August 14, 2009, 1:00 pm

Thank you, Marion -- one of the few people who: 1) understood what this article was about; and 2) realized that it is a QUESTION we need to consider . . . not an accusation, nor an indictment of this country's president.

As frightening as this growing rage, taking its form in racism and blame -- born of ignorance -- is a group of people unquestioningly allegiant to their party or leader, to the point of calling anyone who isn't "unpatriotic," and even calling for their silence, lest the rest of the world or the rabble-rousers hear and be influenced.

Shades of "vichy France?"


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday August 14, 2009, 1:17 pm

One other thing . . . and this runs through my mind quite a bit. Why would any citizen of this country WANT Obama to fail? (Not saying that there are none . . . just saying that their motives are immediately questionable.) With everything this country has been through, after what seemed to be the never-ending (even to the point that it was rumored that he'd refuse to step down -- LOL) nightmare of the "G.W." fiasco, YES -- I WANT CHANGE!

However, it is unreasonable to expect people who suffered the Bush nightmare to suddenly become trusting of their government. I think many people in this country are -- justifiably -- wary of government, after years of deception.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday August 14, 2009, 1:30 pm

I think many Americans are suffering from "G.W. PTSD."

As a result of all the outrageous lies uncovered (and even more STILL being revealed), I believe many of us are untrusting of the media, legislators, corporations, outside interests . . . and the list goes on.

I, for one, am now unable to watch or read any media coverage, or lack of it, without questioning the underlying motives of the writer, corporate ownership or whatever group philosophy he/she adheres to.

Marion Y (322)
Friday August 14, 2009, 1:38 pm
I saw this coming, Carole. Around 2002 when the cry for war began, a number of intellectuals said the war was illegal and would plunge this country into economic disaster. They knew the elites were holding the gold and the middle class were dreaming they had a chance at it. These brilliant people said the middle class would go crazy as we are unprepared for what war would do to us: bankruptcy all around, loss of jobs, homes, divorces, illnesses, crime. They predicted people would act much like they are acting animals lashing out and blaming "them". Our middle class refuses to care for our poor and sick, yet pay homage to the wealthy who punk them. Being morally devoid, America's sins are too painful for these people to acknowledge. Incapable of understanding a world they no longer recognize, they are lashing out in anger... "I want my country back!"

As the article says, these people act like pit bulls who won't let go. I'm not concerned. Thank God they are out of power. Let them blow their gaskets. They are being exposed for their lies and shallowness. Once they simmer down, they will understand America's leadership isn't perfect, but it's much better without Republicans in power. It will be up to each of us to work together to fix the system. The gasketblowers believe you can work all your life, get married, have children, watch TV, play and retire in heaven. A privilege countless other Americans did not and continue to not have access to. Through their political party, they kept it to themselves. Well, there's more to it than working, sleeping and putting down "them". We must be actively involved in the process. These folks are angry they slept at the wheel on the way home to McDonald burgers and polluted food, while voting for the criminals to maintain the status quo. They have done a disservice to their children and society. That's fine, but why act ignorant now and blame others? That is where they are wrong.

We need to remain viligilant, however. The democrat party has been infiltrated by fast thinking republicans thinking no one sees their disguise. It is up to us to have a clear heart and mind so we can uncover and fix a broken system. When we are truthful to ourselves, we know the truth outside of us. I remain an optimist and hopeful.

Thanks for your insight, Carole. We don't always agree, but we remain friends and respectful of one another.

Terri G (4)
Friday August 14, 2009, 6:38 pm
We are indeed well beyond the brink of Fascism...and have quickly gotten more so in a scant 8 months.

I am disgusted with the limited and short-sighted mindsets of those who actually believe that somehow only one or two Presidents, their administrations, their Senate and/or their House are all who can and/or should be held accountable for some portion of the mess the USA is in at this point in time.

Where we are at at this point in time started, at a minimum, with FDR.

There is culpability for this mess on the heads of every single politician and anyone else who had any authority whatsoever to make decisions for our country. Yes..some were/are worse than others.

And like it or not, even his former supporters agree that Obama and his administration have inflicted more damage and caused more destruction in our country in 8 months than some of the rest rolled into one. And the truly horrific issue is the fact that the generational theft, that will continue to increase, has robbed our children and our future generations of many of the freedoms and "luxuries" we are -- now were -- entitled to as citizens of the USA. The freedoms and luxuries that we took for granted...something we believed would always be a part of the life of a legal U.S. citizen have been all but obliterated.

Make time to read our history from reputable books...and think about what you're reading. Ask questions of knowledgeable people about what you're reading. Talk to anybody you can find who was alive during WWII and shortly thereafter. And listen to them! Ask them questions! Then take all that information, all the facts..roll them together...and I pray you come to a Patriotic conclusion.

Yet do not ignore that fact that small children and babies now being born in this country...already have a huge debt to pay. And they they will be paying it for the rest of their lives!

We do indeed need to remain vigilant. We also need to wake up!

Do you not you not realize...that this extreme fracture that has engulfed our country along with all the infighting of those of us who can make a difference is exactly what the usurpers want?

Taking sides against your own countrymen and women makes it all so much easier for the wrong agenda to continue its relentless march forward right along with all the people who care nothing about us or the United States of America, our Constitution, our Founding Fathers, our Liberties, or our Freedom.

Cathi Hartline (248)
Saturday August 15, 2009, 12:05 am
thank You very much Just "C"!! it is a very scary awsul time for Our country unfortunately!! who knows how things will end up!....I truly appreciate all the work You are doing to speak up and relate how concerned You are!! alot of Us are!!

Monday August 17, 2009, 2:52 pm
Thank you Marion, she is MY inspiration and my world, not my life , but I can't wait to be a grandma....But had ths been in place then..... my beautiful wonderful girl ....NEVER woud have known me, even her dads mom a stuanch REPUBLICAN... said I did fantastic, I dont think that way, I just thank GOD I was here to RAISE HER.
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