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Romney and Romney: Nothing in Common

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: Editorial, Debates, GOP Lies, Obama, Video, Wilard )

- 2455 days ago -
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TomCat S (125)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 9:48 am
I sat down to watch last nights Presidential debates expecting Barack Obama to clean the floor with Willard Romney. I was shocked! If you missed the debate, I’m including the complete video for you to see for yourself. The worst performance of the evening was by Jim Lehrer. He allowed Romney to dominate him, rudely and petulantly, throughout the night. He gave Romney the last word in every segment, and failed to insist that Romney answer the questions asked. Barack Obama was lethargic. His normal animation was AWOL. He appeared detached and disinterested. He allowed himself to be attacked in the most despicable fashion and did not fight back. From a perspective of style, Romney was the clear winner. He appeared poised and confident. He attacked Obama without rancor. However, there was one problem that will come back to haunt him. The policies and positions of the Romney at the debate had absolutely nothing in common with the policies and positions of the Romney that has been campaigning for months.

Jae A (316)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:07 am was McCain in the first debate in 2008...I'm not one to think that Obama didn't know what he was doing ..the man is a serious strategist as well as..very good at math :-) I'm not going to short change him on his strategy. Obama looked more stunned by the lies that Romney managed to say to Obamas face as well as the American public that was watchng it..but other than that..they both did ok from what I've heard..well other than the sin of omission by Romney at best. Obama as President and not just a candidate has to think in detail not sound bites/punch lines and simple talking pointsl. No doubth that was frustration for him not to be able to do so. Add thoes things to Romney ignoring the time limit rule and forcing Obama to do the same to have equal time to make at least a portion of his points
That being said,...So which Romney is telling the truth...? My bets go that it wasn't the Romney seen last night in the debate.

Kamila A (141)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:09 am
I agree Tom, it was just weird. Romney lied through the entire thing and Obama didn't respond the way he easily could have. My concern is that Romney's lies from the debate will be believed even when he etch-a-sketches them again.

David C (75)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:24 am
I listened and did not watch.....underwhelmed by Mr. Obama, but my wife said "he was coming on at the end"....did not realize how awful Jim Lehrer was, until I heard some clips this morning.

I did realize that Mr. Mittens still (a) has trouble with the truth, (b) can't tell us any plans and (c) only represents a limited # of people in this country....

Sure hope people don't make a voting decision just based on one debate or 'who looked more aggressive (Presidential????)"......

My hope is that Mr. Obama gets better with each debate, Mr. Romney becomes his over-confident self and the the latter debates spur the undecideds (un-educated voters?) to go for Mr. Obama.....

Kit B (276)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:35 am

The candidates were asked to self monitor their time, obliviously that didn't mean much to Mittens. For someone who talked a lot, and Romney was far more aggressive than Obama, still what did Romney say? Not much, really. He did back track on many absolutes that he stated, even recently. He didn't offer any details about how he plans to do what he stated he planned to do last night, though I'm sure that will all change today, depending on who he is talking with. An empty debate, but I don't really expect Obama to be aggressive, that's not his style.

SuSanne P (193)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:41 am
Thank you TomCat. I was in shock as well. It definitely was not at all what I was expecting. On the other hand, I agree with Jay's post. I did hear by someone (unfortunately I don't recall whom) that this debate was exactly what Dave C. shared, "Sure hope people don't make a voting decision just based on one debate or 'who looked more aggressive (Presidential????)"......"
Our frustration and disgust at Jim Lehrer's behavior is unforgivable IMO. I am sickened, but time will tell in a few short weeks.

SuSanne P (193)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 10:46 am
I quite agree with you Kit- Aggression is definitely not Obama's style. I appreciate that about him, and besides the lies Mitten spewed I felt his bullying behavior appalling. Just an afterthought.

Beverly T (82)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 11:02 am
I agree with you Tom on his Obama's "non-passion" and the comments here...
However.....I'll just post what was on my mind as I watched and what I thought in the aftermath.

Maybe this IS what Obama WANTED.
Romney did display quite handily his BULLYING tactics, his inability to play by the RULES, and yes....arrogance.
You are right about Romney's contradictions, Tom.
It seemed to me that Obama simply let Romney talk himself into a deep deep hole. Where Romney didn't contradict his horrible platform, Obama just let him hang himself. Vouchers for Medicare as an example.
I watched on MSNBC. Three (?) times while Romney lied or ranted or spewed his usual rhetoric, there was a split screen as Obama listened. He had a HUGE grin on his face and a twinkle in his eyes while shaking his head or looking at someone in particular in the audience. I could hear those famous words in his head "There ya go again".
He wasn't worried AT ALL !!!!!
Obama will RIP (anagram intended) Romney's "performance" into SHREDS on the campaign trail where HE, Obama, does HIS best.
Oh how he will USE Romney's FINALLY revealed truths and FLIP FLOPS. Frankly....
I see MORE HARM being done by the MEDIA'S disappointment in Obama. THEY are now NEGATIVELY spinning Obama all because they weren't ENTERTAINED by some PRECONCEIVED IDEA of how Obama should have handled himself. Now that MAKES ME ANGRY !!!!!!
Oh and remember, this whole thing was mostly for the "undecideds". It isn't going to change my vote nor the vote of ANYONE who already knows the truth about Romney.
Obama is a SAVVY guy and so is his campaign.
I say watch and LEARN.

Beverly T (82)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 11:12 am
I agree with you Tom on his Obama's "non-passion". However.....I saw things a bit differently.
Maybe the above truths in you comment is what Obama WANTED.

Romney did display quite handily his BULLYING tactics, his inability to play by the RULES, and yes....arrogance.
You are right about Romney's contradictions, Tom.
It seemed to me that Obama simply let Romney talk himself into a deep deep hole. Where Romney didn't contradict his horrible platform, Obama just let him hang himself. Vouchers for Medicare as an example.
I watched on MSNBC. Three (?) times while Romney lied or ranted or spewed his usual rhetoric, there was a split screen as Obama listened. He had a HUGE grin on his face and a twinkle in his eyes while shaking his head or looking at someone in particular in the audience. I could hear those famous words in his head "There ya go again".
He wasn't worried AT ALL !!!!!
Obama will RIP (anagram intended) Romney's "performance" into SHREDS on the campaign trail where HE, Obama, does HIS best.
Oh how he will USE Romney's FINALLY revealed truths and FLIP FLOPS. Frankly....
I see MORE HARM being done by the MEDIA'S disappointment in Obama. THEY are now NEGATIVELY spinning Obama all because they weren't ENTERTAINED by some PRECONCEIVED IDEA of how Obama should have handled himself. Now that MAKES ME ANGRY !!!!!!
Oh and remember, this whole thing was mostly for the "undecideds". It isn't going to change my vote nor the vote of ANYONE who already knows the truth about Romney.
Obama is a SAVVY guy and so is his campaign.
I say watch and LEARN.

Beverly T (82)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 11:17 am
Did my apology post even once ??? LOL

Arielle S (313)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 11:35 am
And thank goodness they don't have anything in common! I admit I was surprised at this Mitt - he was very different except for the smarmy smile and the big ego - those were the same. Obama is just letting Mitt dig that hole a bit deeper before he pushes Mitt into it...

Elle B (81)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 11:58 am
I think Obama is a genuine human being with a real living soul. Not some strange misguided money monger mutation in a marketed trance. He of anyone knows exactly how close we came to absolute catastrophe and how hard he and his team have had to work 24/7 always knowing who really did what and what could have really been accomplished without the added burden of constant machination, obstruction, and malversation from the GOP jokers and stupid infotainment games. Anyone think they could even get their job done under those circumstances? I seriously doubt it. I think his heart was breaking deep inside to know the true story and have to play these ridiculous games over and over because Americans are so sadly dumbed down. And to have to stand right next to such an abominable creature it suddenly brimmed to the surface...every ounce of his being probably wanted to blast that despicable liar and show the country exactly what Romney and his depraved party truly are...and he knows that would be acceptable. So he held back his ache and anger, and carried forth. He needs to gather fortitude to once again stand beside exactly what is killing America and put it in it's place. I rarely see anyone else effectively stand up to these bullies. . . the media and pundits certainly don't. So sad that America prefers distractions and facades of rude wrestling matches and illusional infotainment ad nauseum to genuine information and discourse between human beings. Romney owes Jim Leher and the President an apology for being a lying, bully jerk. ..instead millions think that's strong leadership. And most of America needs to grow up. If Romney gets elected the nation WILL FALL for good. . .and it will be god awful. With so many heads still stuck in sand listening to memorex and muzac it is a serious possibility. Battling evil miscreants is draining. . .makes me tired just thinking about it. Romney the BULLY won the debate? What a deeply sad commentary on the state of minds and human affairs. Personally, i thought he looked extremely hyped, desperate, cheesy and sleezy. . . i wouldn't buy a used car from him...what's he doing running for President of the USA? Wow...America sure loves big blowhards. His game is tired and old. . .the GOP is paper thin and at the curb. . .go let's order a TRASH PICK-up and DUMP them. Godspeed, heart and strength to you Pres. Obama.

Off i go to put in some extra shifts with boots on the ground to try to keep these greedy ignorant creeps from killing a nation. BULLIES can be DEFEATED.

“Nothing is more terrible than to see ignorance in action.” ―Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

“I think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance.” ― Reuben Blades

Carole K (195)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 12:00 pm
I think Beverly's absolutely correct in her analysis here! One of Obama's Facebook pages that I have "Like"d has a wall cover that says something to the effect: "you thought I was a lamb; but now you will see how much of a lion I can be!" It gives supporters momentary unease & unrest; but this is wise campaign strategy as our President gave Romney ample rope to hang himself with his own lies in future debate encounters. I see this as as an aspect of Obama's personality type which some ppl refer to as "leading from behind'; but as a retired classroom teacher, I know this technique is highly effective in producing consumer/ voter ownership & "buy-in" participation, which is what HAS to occur for the positive outcome of winning this election. I love it when I wake up & Obama's still our President! And, the obstructionist GOP Tea Party Congress is sent packing. "I love to fire Paul Ryan!" says me & 47% other government freeloaders.... Power to the PEOPLE, first, last, always & forever!!!!

. (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 12:50 pm
Thanks Tom.

Yvonne White (229)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:08 pm
Mitt must have hired Palin's handler - he HAD to bully & LIE to please his Koch-backed followers... I think the GOP has become the Party of 1%ers with multiple-personaties (who else would they trust but themselves?)
RepubliCONs LOVE Bullies - Democrats love Smart! Overplaying & Downplaying the aggression This time lets BOTH candidates beg for money with a straight face.. which irritates me but that's the game. Obama will win the final game, or ALL hell will break loose!

Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:21 pm
I think the list of lies Obama could have called him on we would still be having a debate. My frist thought was "What are you up to Obama? Because he did seem to be sitting (standing) there letting Romney say anything. Just like a parent listening to a child getting deeper and deeper in trouble. Romney was and looked like he was on top of the world getting away with his lies. lol ity almost just to funny. Obama doesnot do anything without a plan and he was just doing ehat he needed to do. I think Obama was the real winner nd Romney won the night because he was the most comeical and told so many lies and he was fun to watch and ity did make him the loser

Arielle S (313)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:21 pm
Elle, I've been trying to think all day what word I felt described Mitt last night and you just nailed it - "CHEESY"!!
Your post sums it up pretty good - a shower of stars to you!

JL A (281)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:25 pm
You cannot currently send a star to TomCat because you have done so within the last week.

JL A (281)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:31 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Jae because you have done so within the last week.

Carrie B (306)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:31 pm
I think most of us were in shock. That may include Obama. I know as president he is used to people arguing and disagreeing with him, but is he accustomed to people blatantly lying? Most of us associate lying with naughty children who have done something they shouldn't. I find it difficult to deal with adults who are not truthful because I just never can bring myself to say "you are such a liar".

Last night there were times when I felt Obama looked very angry and almost disgusted. Isn't that exactly how must of us feel when we are lied to?

JL A (281)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:32 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Camila because you have done so within the last week.

JL A (281)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:39 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Elle because you have done so within the last week.

JL A (281)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 1:42 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Carrie because you have done so within the last week.
All prior comments cover the territory so effectively I've been leaving stars (or WannaBe stars). The only new thing I have to add is that it saddens and grieves me that a major party's candidate presents such character flaws for the whole world to see and his party is not expressing shame.

Past Member (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 2:08 pm
Noted. Thanks.

Past Member (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 4:34 pm
Carrie, Obama has been lying to the American people from the moment he wrote his two books reinventing himself feeding Americans what he wanted us to know about him. He set the stage. One thing that he did do, to his credit, was reveal himself in his book "Dreams From My Father." He told us who he really anti-colonialist, like his father who hated the UK and the US. Obama believed America needed to be put in her place. What Obama hadn't factored into this equation is that the American people weren't buying it.

The Care 2 liberals are between a rock and a hard place from where I sit. They have openly supported a Marxist-socialist president who got shut down in November 2010 by the American people...the voters....when they took out the spending democrats in the tank for Obama and replaced them with the "No More Spending" republicans. Did they shut the spending down? You bet they did. Obama brought our country not one but two credit downgrades. Debt to income ratio applied here. Obama is not smart. In fact, he is even more incompetent than I thought. Mitt Romney proved it last night.

Personally, I am counting the days to the next debate. Romney isn't lying. He is telling the truth but the liberals are probably too embarrassed to acknowledge the truth.

Want to read racist comments by Obama? Buy his book "Dreams From My Father." Read, in his own words, how he felt about his own white mother. It's's revealing.....and it shows you the man you still continue to support. Seen the unedited version of senator Obama's 2007 speech at Hampton University? No? Watch the video and tell me this is your idea of a President in the US. Obama was disgusting. He doubled down speaking in a black southern accent vernacular. This isn't a man you can be proud of. Obama doesn't know who the hell he is. Scary stuff. Very scary.

My hope is that the American people will soon send Michelle and Barack packing back to Chicago where they belong in that cesspool of Chicago politicians....mafia, Hoffa, unions....lies, corruption....yes, that's where Obama belongs not in OUR White House.

Past Member (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 4:47 pm
In November, the true patriots of our country, the personal responsibility Americans who never wanted to be a burden on society will cast their votes. Do we want to help our disabled Americans and Americans who are below the poverty line? You bet we do. We care about those Americans. Our tax dollars support their care and we, as Americans, want to do more for those who actually qualify for these benefits. We, as taxpayers, pay out every year over $60 billion in fraud and abuse in our social programs. Imagine if Obama really cared and addressed the you think we could actually do more for our veterans, disabled Americans and families who not only need our help but that they could get a cost of living raise to get them to a point where they can actually survive? Crickets on Obama cleaning up the fraud and abuse. But he is ready and willing to send millions to other countries, rebuilding their mosques, etc. while our own Americans need help. I believe in helping our fellow Americans. I oppose supporting illegals in our country and sending billions and billions to middle east countries.

Something is radically wrong with Obama. Could it be that he is simply "anti-American?" Read his book "Dreams From My Father" and understand Obama.

Shirley A (96)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 5:10 pm
IMHO,President Obama just gave Romney a 90 minute short piece of rope and he hung himself on National television. Sometimes letting a pathalogical liar expose themself IS the best attack. Letting Romney roll on and on without attacking him on those lies tonight let's it all play out on tape tomorrow in Romney's OWN LYING WORDS. Rope A Dope. Fishing for BIG MOUTH carp are terms that come to mind. Exposing what will show to be Romney's constant inconsistancy and pandaring flip flopping again from the candidate himself will be better than any huge political commercial the Obama campaign could run.

Very strange that Romney is so use to "his" boys lying to him over and over again, Hum !! Sounds like a family trait apparantly. Romney's attempt to "zing" the President with that was just pathetic, especially after the outright lies the moronic man has been absoultely, undoubtably caught red handed in and proven to have said throughout his campaign. Anyone who thinks Mitt won this one is blind to exactly how the game is played in dealing with an ego driven, fake to his core, outright lying machine.

Lea Johnson (2)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 5:26 pm
Nothing changed my opinion of either man. Obama is definitely the man to get my vote.

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 5:43 pm
As someone had said on the news channel who knows Obama well, they said he is his worse critic. If he truly was off the mark and not playing some chess game, he will rise to occassion.

As for Romney, I'm sure his supporters will continue to like him, might even love him for his rudeness. For others who are Independents I think that rudeness didn't play well. For the uninformed, if that was the first time I saw him I might be more incline to think of him more seriously (for I wouldn't know the lies) that is, if his rudeness didn't get the better of the uniformed for they may think this is just how it is, debates.

As for the moderator, he did a lousey job. He should of been more forceful in this insistance that he stop speaking or pay attention to the rules set up. After all THEY all set them up and agreed to them ahead of time. This should of been given back to the League of Women Voters, but that is a whole other story. If anyone would care to know go to:
Democracy Now and the League of Women Voters
I personally watched the Debates on Democracy Now and got the additonal benefit of listening to Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party and Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party, answer the same questions immediately after Romney and Obama. I must say listening to the two 3rd Parties was much more pleasurable and it is a shame that more people do not know of them and that Corporate and the Oligarchy will not give them a chance, they blew both the Democrats and the Republicans out of the Water.

Past Member (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 5:49 pm
Romney didn't lie. Even Obama wasn't able to refute Romney's words.

Past Member (0)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 5:53 pm
Shirley, as a parent....we are well introduced to the antics of our children. They are posturing and growing and finding their way. I find it interesting that those who have never had children never understand what parents are saying. Romney was right. He is a parent and as parents we understand the growing pains of our children.

Nothing more nothing less. If you haven't had children you can never understand.

Robert S (111)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 6:52 pm
Diane, Romneys words are Refuted by Romneys words. Your a shill Dianne, because your not unaware of his lies, you just try and pretend they are not there. While I would have liked Obama to call him on the lies more forcefully. His not doing so, does not change those lies into truth. And when you claim that Romney did not lie, it seems to us that you do not hold your credibility dear to you.

He spoke for 38 minutes of the 90 minute debate and told at least 27 myths:

1) “[G]et us energy independent, North American energy independent. That creates about 4 million jobs”. Romney’s plan for “energy independence” actually relies heavily on a study that assumes the U.S. continues with fuel efficiency standards set by the Obama administration. For instance, he uses Citigroup research based off the assumption that “‘the United States will continue with strict fuel economy standards that will lower its oil demand.” Since he promises to undo the Obama administration’s new fuel efficiency standards, he would cut oil consumption savings of 2 million barrels per day by 2025.

2) “I don’t have a $5 trillion tax cut. I don’t have a tax cut of a scale that you’re talking about.” A Tax Policy Center analysis of Romney’s proposal for a 20 percent across-the-board tax cut in all federal income tax rates, eliminating the Alternative Minimum Tax, eliminating the estate tax and other tax reductions, would reduce federal revenue $480 billion in 2015. This amount to $5 trillion over the decade.

3) “My view is that we ought to provide tax relief to people in the middle class. But I’m not going to reduce the share of taxes paid by high-income people.” If Romney hopes to provide tax relief to the middle class, then his $5 trillion tax cut would add to the deficit. There are not enough deductions in the tax code that primarily benefit rich people to make his math work.

4) “My — my number-one principal is, there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. I want to underline that: no tax cut that adds to the deficit.” As the Tax Policy Center concluded, Romney’s plan can’t both exempt middle class families from tax cuts and remain revenue neutral. “He’s promised all these things and he can’t do them all. In order for him to cover the cost of his tax cut without adding to the deficit, he’d have to find a way to raise taxes on middle income people or people making less than $200,000 a year,” the Center found.

5) “I will not under any circumstances raise taxes on middle-income families. I will lower taxes on middle-income families. Now, you cite a study. There are six other studies that looked at the study you describe and say it’s completely wrong.” The studies Romney cites actually further prove that Romney would, in fact, have to raise taxes on the middle class if he were to keep his promise not to lose revenue with his tax rate reduction.

6) “I saw a study that came out today that said you’re going to raise taxes by $3,000 to $4,000 on middle-income families.” Romney is pointing to this study from the American Enterprise Institute. It actually found that rather than raise taxes to pay down the debt, the Obama administration’s policies — those contained directly in his budget — would reduce the share of taxes that go toward servicing the debt by $1,289.89 per taxpayer in the $100,000 to $200,000 range.

7) “And the reason is because small business pays that individual rate; 54 percent of America’s workers work in businesses that are taxed not at the corporate tax rate, but at the individual tax rate….97 percent of the businesses are not — not taxed at the 35 percent tax rate, they’re taxed at a lower rate. But those businesses that are in the last 3 percent of businesses happen to employ half — half of all the people who work in small business.” Far less than half of the people affected by the expiration of the upper income tax cuts get any of their income at all from a small businesses. And those people could very well be receiving speaking fees or book royalties, which qualify as “small business income” but don’t have a direct impact on job creation. It’s actually hard to find a small business who think that they will be hurt if the marginal tax rate on income earned above $250,000 per year is increased.

8) “Mr. President, all of the increase in natural gas and oil has happened on private land, not on government land. On government land, your administration has cut the number of permits and licenses in half.” Oil production from federal lands is higher, not lower: Production from federal lands is up slightly in 2011 when compared to 2007. And the oil and gas industry is sitting on 7,000 approved permits to drill, that it hasn’t begun exploring or developing.

9) “The president’s put it in place as much public debt — almost as much debt held by the public as all prior presidents combined.” This is not even close to being true. When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626 trillion. Now the national debt is over $16 trillion. That $5.374 trillion increase is nowhere near as much debt as all the other presidents combined.

10) “That’s why the National Federation of Independent Businesses said your plan will kill 700,000 jobs. I don’t want to kill jobs in this environment.” That study, produced by a right-wing advocacy organization, doesn’t analyze what Obama has actually proposed.

11) “What we do have right now is a setting where I’d like to bring money from overseas back to this country.” Romney’s plan to shift the country to a territorial tax system would allow corporations to do business and make profits overseas without ever being taxed on it in the United States. This encourages American companies to invest abroad and could cost the country up to 800,000 jobs.

12) “I would like to take the Medicaid dollars that go to states and say to a state, you’re going to get what you got last year, plus inflation, plus 1 percent, and then you’re going to manage your care for your poor in the way you think best.” Sending federal Medicaid funding to the states in the form of a block grant woud significantly reduce federal spending for Medicaid because the grant would not keep up with projected health care costs. A CBO estimate of a very similar proposal from Paul Ryan found that federal spending would be “35 percent lower in 2022 and 49 percent lower in 2030 than current projected federal spending” and as a result “states would face significant challenges in achieving sufficient cost savings through efficiencies to mitigate the loss of federal funding.” “To maintain current service levels in the Medicaid program, states would probably need to consider additional changes, such as reducing their spending on other programs or raising additional revenues,” the CBO found.

13) “I want to take that $716 billion you’ve cut and put it back into Medicare…. But the idea of cutting $716 billion from Medicare to be able to balance the additional cost of Obamacare is, in my opinion, a mistake. There’s that number again. Romney is claiming that Obamacare siphons off $716 billion from Medicare, to the detriment of beneficiaries. In actuality, that money is saved primarily through reducing over-payments to insurance companies under Medicare Advantage, not payments to beneficiaries. Paul Ryan’s budget plan keeps those same cuts, but directs them toward tax cuts for the rich and deficit reduction.

14) “What I support is no change for current retirees and near-retirees to Medicare.” Here is how Romney’s Medicare plan will affect current seniors: 1) by repealing Obamacare, the 16 million seniors receiving preventive benefits without deductibles or co-pays and are saving $3.9 billion on prescription drugs will see a cost increase, 2) “premium support” will increase premiums for existing beneficiaries as private insurers lure healthier seniors out of the traditional Medicare program, 3) Romney/Ryan would also lower Medicaid spending significantly beginning next year, shifting federal spending to states and beneficiaries, and increasing costs for the 9 million Medicare recipients who are dependent on Medicaid.

15) “Number two is for people coming along that are young, what I do to make sure that we can keep Medicare in place for them is to allow them either to choose the current Medicare program or a private plan. Their choice. They get to choose — and they’ll have at least two plans that will be entirely at no cost to them.” The Medicare program changes for everyone, even people who choose to remain in the traditional fee-for-service. Rather than relying on a guaranteed benefit, all beneficiaries will receive a premium support credit of $7,500 on average in 2023 to purchase coverage in traditional Medicare or private insurance. But that amount will only grow at a rate of GDP plus 1.5 percentage points and will not keep up with health care costs. So while the federal government will spend less on the program, seniors will pay more in premiums.

16) “And, by the way the idea came not even from Paul Ryan or — or Senator Wyden, who’s the co-author of the bill with — with Paul Ryan in the Senate, but also it came from Bill — Bill Clinton’s chief of staff.” Romney has rejected the Ryan/Wyden approach — which does not cap the growth of the “premium support” subsidy. Bill Clinton and his commission also voted down these changes to the Medicare program.

17) “Well, I would repeal and replace it. We’re not going to get rid of all regulation. You have to have regulation. And there are some parts of Dodd-Frank that make all the sense in the world.” Romney has previously called for full repeal of Dodd-Frank, a law whose specific purpose is to regulate banks. MF Global’s use of customer funds to pay for its own trading losses is just one bit of proof that the financial industry isn’t responsible enough to protect consumers without regulation.

18) “But I wouldn’t designate five banks as too big to fail and give them a blank check. That’s one of the unintended consequences of Dodd-Frank… We need to get rid of that provision because it’s killing regional and small banks. They’re getting hurt.” The law merely says that the biggest, systemically risky banks need toabide by more stringent regulations. If those banks fail, they will be unwound by a new process in the Dodd-Frank law that protects taxpayers from having to pony up for a bailout.

19) “And, unfortunately, when — when — when you look at Obamacare, the Congressional Budget Office has said it will cost $2,500 a year more than traditional insurance. So it’s adding to cost.” Obamacare will actually provide millions of families with tax credits to make health care more affordable.

20) “[I]t puts in place an unelected board that’s going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don’t like that idea.” The Board, or IPAB is tasked with making binding recommendations to Congress for lowering health care spending, should Medicare costs exceed a target growth rate. Congress can accept the savings proposal or implement its own ideas through a super majority. The panel’s plan will modify payments to providers but it cannot “include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums…increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and co- payments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria” (Section 3403 of the ACA). Relying on health care experts rather than politicians to control health care costs has previously attracted bipartisan support and even Ryan himself proposed two IPAB-like structures in a 2009 health plan.

21) “Right now, the CBO says up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as Obamacare goes into effect next year. And likewise, a study by McKinsey and Company of American businesses said 30 percent of them are anticipating dropping people from coverage.” The Affordable Care Act would actually expand health care coverage to 30 million Americans, despite Romney fear mongering. According to CBO director Douglas Elmendorf, 3 million or less people would leave employer-sponsored health insurance coverage as a result of the law.

22) “I like the way we did it [health care] in Massachusetts…What were some differences? We didn’t raise taxes.” Romney raised fees, but he can claim that he didn’t increase taxes because the federal government funded almost half of his reforms.

23) “It’s why Republicans said, do not do this, and the Republicans had — had the plan. They put a plan out. They put out a plan, a bipartisan plan. It was swept aside.” The Affordable Care Act incorporates many Republican ideas including the individual mandate, state-based health care exchanges, high-risk insurance pools, and modified provisions that allow insurers to sell policies in multiple states. Republicans never offered a united bipartisan alternative.

24) “Preexisting conditions are covered under my plan.” Only people who arecontinuously insured would not be discriminated against because they suffer from pre-existing conditions. This protection would not be extended to people who are currently uninsured.

25) “In one year, you provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world. Now, I like green energy as well, but that’s about 50 years’ worth of what oil and gas receives.” The $90 billion was given out over several years and included loans, loan guarantees and grants through the American Recovery Act. $23 billion of the $90 billion “went toward “clean coal,” energy-efficiency upgrades, updating the electricity grid and environmental clean-up, largely for old nuclear weapons sites.”

26) “I think about half of [the green firms Obama invested in], of the ones have been invested in have gone out of business. A number of them happened to be owned by people who were contributors to your campaigns.” As of late last year, only “three out of the 26 recipients of 1705 loan guarantees have filed for bankruptcy, with losses estimated at just over $600 million.”

27) “If the president’s reelected you’ll see dramatic cuts to our military.” Romney is referring to the sequester, which his running mate Paul Ryan supported. Obama opposes the military cuts and has asked Congress to formulate a balanced approach that would avoid the trigger.

Cam V (417)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 7:42 pm
The real Obama showed up last night and he did not not want to be there. Obama lost this debate hands down and now he will lose the White House he never should have been given in the first place. When your economy starts to grow again under Romney/Ryan's guidance you can all print this off and eat your words.

Robert S (111)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 7:47 pm
When Cam has nothing intelligent to say, he doesn't let that stop him.

Alan B (48)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 9:25 pm
Dianne O., are George Bush & Dick Cheney STILL your beloved heroes?

Edith B (146)
Thursday October 4, 2012, 9:41 pm
Thanks, Robert S. for you excellent explanation of all Romney's lies last night, clarifies a lot for those who are willing to listen.

Susanne R (236)
Friday October 5, 2012, 12:47 am
Diane O. said --"My hope is that the American people will soon send Michelle and Barack packing back to Chicago where they belong in that cesspool of Chicago politicians....mafia, Hoffa, unions....lies, corruption....yes, that's where Obama belongs not in OUR White House." You said it, and now you own it.

Mitt Romney lied through his teeth Wednesday evening. I was able to identify many of his lies as the debate was taking place. He bullied the moderator and didn't respect the rules that had been agreed upon. Do yourself a favor and read what the fact-checkers have to say or read Robert's post. I don't respect Mitt Romney and I certainly wouldn't vote for him, but I don't hate him or spread ridiculously bizarre conspiracy theories about him.

Cam: How can the economy grow again under Romney's/Ryan's guidance when they haven't even formulated a mutual plan? During the debate, Romney denied the plan that Ryan formulated --but hasn't offered any of his own. Or was that just another case of Mitt saying what he thought the public wanted to hear? A person who lies is insulting his listeners. Those who weren't insulted weren't listening or don't value the truth.

Stan B (123)
Friday October 5, 2012, 1:37 am
Robert S. You're a sore loser. Cam is right. Obama lost and Romney won now live it .

P A (117)
Friday October 5, 2012, 1:48 am
Stars to Elle and others, and a galaxy of stars was due to Robert S - but I could only send him one for that MARVELLOUS and accurate analysis! Sorry Susanne R and others - computer won't let me send you stars yet. I see poor Diane in Denial is back again. Diane - are you sure you didn't have a typo in the following?
"My hope is that the American people will soon send Michelle and Barack packing back to Chicago where they belong in that cesspool of Chicago politicians....mafia, Hoffa, unions....lies, corruption....yes, that's where Obama belongs not in OUR White House." - are you sure you shouldn't have typed "not in our WHITE House." - seems that way to me!

Lynn Squance (235)
Friday October 5, 2012, 2:01 am
Ok, I just finished listening to the debate, and my, oh my, now I know why Pinocchio was sobbing so hard when he lost the "Contest for World's Greatest Liar." Romney won the "World's Greatest Liar Contest".

Overall perception — Romney was definitely more animated for whatever reason. But several things bothered me. Romney seemed to ignore the rules, talk over and ignore the moderator, and he was a bully. Lehrer should have used duct tape on him. And probably the biggest thing was that almost everything he said last night was in direct contradiction to what he has been saying for the past year plus — Mr Flip-Flop! Romney seemed to be talking to Mr Obama — I didn't get the feeling he was talking to the people.

I was a bit disappointed that Mr Obama was not more forceful but that could have been part of the strategy — give Rmoney enough rope and he is likely to hang himself. Mr Obama looked not only at Mr Romney, be he looked right into the camera a number of times and spoke directly to the people. I could feel it.

Content — From a details point, Mr Obama was all over Romney but Romney was not very specific. As I listened, I picked out a lot of lies from Romney and was amazed at just how boldly he could lie to the American people. Almost all of his presentation was in direct contradiction to what he has been saying. I was amused by one comment in particular — Rmoney said he doesn't have a tax cut for the wealthy and that he wants to prevent the middle class from being crushed (his word). As he said it my first thought was his comment about the 47% — I don't care about them. I would have liked to see that issue brought up as well as Congressional obstruction. Having said that, I can see that bringing up the obstruction might be perceived as whining and would be a definite "looking backwards" type of comment whereas Mr Obama said in the beginning he wanted to "look forward".

One comment by Rmoney that perked up my ears was the following: “[G]et us energy independent, North American energy independent. That creates about 4 million jobs”.

As a Canadian, this concerns me because he appears to have a plan to involve Canada in his machinations. Is this part of his Manifest Destiny crawling out from under his hat? Unfortunately we have the Rt Dishonourable PM Twit (Harper) who worshiped at the altar of Baby Bush and now the Republican/Teabaggers most likely. Harper and his harlots are already changing things unfortunately and we are starting to see some of the worst policies of the Republican/Teabaggers drifting north like air pollution! And 4 million jobs? He better break that down into direct jobs and downline jobs because direct jobs just from the Keystone XL is about 60 US jobs and 600 Canadian jobs, not 4 million. And I thought that McConnell, or was it Boehner, was looney when he said 200,000 jobs from the pipeline .

I think the next 2 presidential debates will show a different side of Mr Obama. I think that the boxing gloves may come off.

Get out the vote!!!!!

Vote Democratic 2012!!!!! Vote Obama/Biden 2012!!!!!

Past Member (0)
Friday October 5, 2012, 2:49 am
The next two presidential debates will show Obama to be a little man who is forced to defend his four failed years as our president. He has no good record to defend. That leaves Obama empty handed. Romney will continue to attack Obama's stalled economy, high unemployment, medicare cuts and lousy foreign affairs decisions.

Now Ohio is looking good for Obama. The writing is on the wall. The next debates will be between an astute businessman and a community organizer. And the icing on the cake will be when Joe Biden faces Paul Ryan.

I want to see Barack and Michelle go back to Chicago.

Elle B (81)
Friday October 5, 2012, 4:44 am
Oh yes, of course... in the money and the bullies we do trust. Let's just have a grand duel. Should death or the draw of first blood call the contest. Or we could just go for wild west shoot outs.
NOTE: There ARE a multitude of blogs for trite, trivial, petty, war mongering denial mindsets. . .lists can be provided.

I think Obama should have quoted a few phrases from Shakespeare and other wise souls. . .bid farewell to Mr. Leher and the audience, walked off the stage and out of the building. Romney, et al are soul killers and bashers who justify their actions by believing they are some manner of saints. The most deceitful wretched beings that have walked this earth. Lying to oneself and as large groups does not make the falsehoods and nonsense true and reasonable.

Not engaging with bullies and liars at their level is the response of a person of deep substance.

“Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” ―Franklin D. Roosevelt

“He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it.” ― George Orwell

“Out of my sight! Thou dost infect mine eyes.” ― William Shakespeare

“False face must hide what the false heart doth know.” ― William Shakespeare

"Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self-sustained." ―Mohandas K. Ghandi

“But he was sick of this charade. Sick of watching people lose a little more of their humanity each day, and sick to death of seeing people tortured in the name of God. What had happened to these people?” ― Brom

"Now I know the full power of evil. It makes ugliness seem beautiful and goodness seem ugly and weak." ―
August Strindberg


Carol H (229)
Friday October 5, 2012, 5:51 am
Tom, I agree with you comment 100%!!!!

Past Member (0)
Friday October 5, 2012, 6:14 am
typo above: Now Ohio is NOT looking good for Obama..."

Sheryl G (359)
Friday October 5, 2012, 6:45 am
Daine O, Then what Truth DID Romney speak?

Frankly I don't know where he is on any one issue. I thinks he says whatever he NEEDS to depending on how the wind is blowing. I think he has no personal stance but speaks what his backers tell him to say.

That is why he states one thing one day then another a few months, days, or even hours later. So when you do not speak Truth 100% of the time you must be speaking LIES.

I don't want a Commander in Chief that can not speak Truth, I may not like what Ron Paul offered, but at least I did understand where he stood, and he is consistant with his ideals.

In the ways of my ancestors they did not have a jail, they understood humans made mistakes, mistakes were then given an opportunity to learn from, to make correct, but there was one taboo that they did not tolerate, and that was to lie or not be consistant in their Truth. If you were caught in a lie that was the only thing that carried a death sentence or the very least expulsion from the Nation.

And we should consider electing this person who tells one thing one day then something else another?

Those in Dominent Culture would want this to be their Leader? And you defend this DISHONORABLE person?

So I ask you again, What Truth DID Romney speak?

Arielle S (313)
Friday October 5, 2012, 7:11 am
Many here I wanted to give MORE stars to (Robert S. especially) - Diane, I gotta give it to you for persistence. But persistence doesn't make you right. I am always amazed at the intensity of your hatred. It's one thing to disagree with someone or not like someone - but I just don't understand your loathing. Unless you are one of the 1%, how could you think Mitt is going to care about you or look after your interests? The man says what he thinks people want to hear and that changes with the group he's talking to. How can you pick and choose what to believe?

TomCat S (125)
Friday October 5, 2012, 9:40 am
Thanks to all except the trolls parroting Teabuggery.

I think that what threw Obama off is that Romney caught him off guard. Obama had not prepared for the way Romney disowned everything he will do if elected.

Kudos to many.

Do not feed the trolls.

Susanne R (236)
Friday October 5, 2012, 9:55 am
A galaxy of stars to Pat Armstrong for the following comment:

"Diane - are you sure you didn't have a typo in the following?
"My hope is that the American people will soon send Michelle and Barack packing back to Chicago where they belong in that cesspool of Chicago politicians....mafia, Hoffa, unions....lies, corruption....yes, that's where Obama belongs not in OUR White House." - are you sure you shouldn't have typed "not in our WHITE House." - seems that way to me!"

Pat, that was a stroke of genius! You certainly hit the nail on the head! And the poster of that comment, a person who has stated on other threads that she is offended by the use of all "CAPS" in any post, certainly dropped her genteel persona not only when she made that boorish comment --but when she added the same type of emphasis that she finds so offensive.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday October 5, 2012, 12:14 pm
Rmoney DID commit himself to ONE thing -- SMASHING BIG BIRD AND PUBLIC TELEVISION.

Of course, NOT for the miniscule "savings" entailed -- but, rather, for the PRINCIPLE of the thing.
That means, that Sesame Street and other Children's Television -- will have to be "self-supporting", i.e., FIND ADVERTISERS.
And these ADVERTISERS, would not only have a CAPTIVE, IMPRESSIONABLE AUDIENCE in small kids, toddlers and pre-schoolers --
but, the Corporate Advertisers WOULD INFLUENCE CONTENT ALSO. Both subtly, and not-so-subtly. Both by INclusion, and by EXclusion.
Yeah, kiddies, Fracking and GMO foods are GOOD for ya!
TRAINING kids from the very EARLIEST ages, to become GOOD LITTLE CONSUMERS -- which is ALREADY being done on all the NON-PUBLIC-TELEVISION KIDS' SHOWS. And movies and music videos, etc. {Can of Coke carefully placed in the background -- identifiable brand-name clothes the "stars" wear -- etc}.

This is MIND CONTROL, DISGUISED AS "SAVING MONEY". A TYPICAL "STEALTH" TACTIC of the Repukelicans and their Koch brothers and Corporate sponsors. Getting in under the Public's radar.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday October 5, 2012, 1:07 pm
I think we were all expecting Rmoney to do a real GAFFE -- as he has been in the HABIT of doing regularly, recently -- and were shocked when he "didn't do too badly". We were waiting for a Gaffe, like people watch a NASCAR race for a horrible accident to happen!
Rmoney's "zingers" missed the mark and fell flat. Among these were, "you have your big house and your big airplane", apparently referring to the White House and to Air Force One. Very STRANGE, to say the least, coming from one whose Mansion has a separate elevator for all his cars! Hard to figure out what this was supposed to do -- picture the President as a "privileged elitist" thus taking the heat off Rmoney being one? STUPID!

Then there was the one where Rmoney ACCUSED THE PRESIDENT TO HIS FACE OF LYING -- FIGHTING WORDS that I think even President Obama couldn't have been prepared for! The only "proper" response to THAT, in some parts of the country at some times in history, was to reach for your gun! And, stupid idiot Rmoney kindof "softened" his remarks a little, by saying that "his 5 boys lied to him all the time" {I am paraphrasing}. So, that accusation isn't REALLY all that bad...just like saying "naughty, naughty" to my kids!.
[I'd like to tell Rmoney here, that I have raised a daughter, and I CAN'T REMEMBER A TIME WHEN SHE LIED TO HER PARENTS. We had brought her up to NOT BE AFRAID to tell us the Truth.... I mean literally, I can't remember a time when she lied, or would have felt she had to....]
As someone else said, Obama should've gone across and SLAPPED THE HELL OUT OF MITT THE TWIT.... very self-controlled that he did nothing!
Of course, to Rmoney's kind of people, it is OKAY TO DISS "N" WORDS, THEY HAVE NO "HONOR" TO DEFEND LIKE A WHITE MAN DOES...
And then there is Rmoney's "I love Big Bird", which may be remembered for a while. I have dealt with that above.
While Rmoney's wanna-be "zingers" fell absolutely FLAT, and were offensive as could be --
what made them "pass" with little comment, was Rmoney's DELIVERY. Of his whole "debate" style.

Rmoney's body language, phoney facial expressions, voice, etc., have before this, suggested Insecurity, Desire to please, Kowtowing to Public Opinion... not very confidence- building in a potential Prez!
I and others FULLY EXPECTED A MELT-DOWN during, or even before, the Debates. Mitt the Twit was NOT HANDLING HIMSELF WELL. He was having "temper tantrums" backstage and LOSING IT. Even Ann Rmoney, said she was worried!

Somehow, all this CHANGED OVERNIGHT. Rmoney spoke very rapidly and non-stop and wouldn't be interrupted. He DID look, for a change, CONFIDENT. Not at ALL what we expected, could have expected from previous live interviews and videos, where he appeared anxious, and with that nervous, wide-eyed eyebrows-up eager-to-please look!
He morphed into the aggressive high-school bully with the scissors in his hand, into the guy on the Mother Jones video speaking confidently to those who liked him in the first place.

Of course it was a GREAT advantage for Rmoney, that the debate people were persuaded, for the first time in Presidential debate history, to let him see the questions IN ADVANCE. So he could REHEARSE. And rehearse and rehearse and rehearse.... until "perfect". {And, given the Koch brothers' influence, probably the QUESTIONS were DESIGNED to please the Rmoney camp, also.}

But, a lot of people see MORE than just "canned answers and rehearsals" here. The WAY Rmoney spoke.... well, Cocaine is said to give people super-confidence in themselves, super-energy. A feeling you are on top of the world, can't be stopped. Of course, using that would be illegal, wouldn't it. However, there are now synthetic DESIGNER DRUGS that imitate the effects of ANYthing. And some of these Designer Drugs are too new to be illegal, yet.
Besides a Cocaine High {or imitation one}, other people have said they detected a Speed, or Methamphetamine High. Others have seen just a plain Caffeine High. {Caffeine being banned for Mormons, if he used it or some synthetic substitute that had the same effect, Rmoney might be super-susceptible to even a small amount of it.}

Anyway, some sort of a Speed-Freak High would explain a LOT -- the BULLYING attitude, the IGNORING of time limits, the RAPID talking as if to get it all out before it's forgotten, and the "CONFIDENT" carriage and body language, which are otherwise SO STRANGE to see in Rmoney's usually zombie-like, robotic self. Even his "death-look" eyes, looked somehow different!
I'm just sayin'. It's not necessarily anything illegal. It could be just a Caffeine high. But, it's gotta be SOMEthing. SOMEthing has changed about Rmoney's public appearance. You CAN'T NOT notice it! {Double negative.}

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday October 5, 2012, 2:24 pm
One strategy of the Rmoney camp, is to TURN OFF BLACK VOTERS who of course will vote Democrat. This they do not only by purging voter rolls, and challenging dark-skinned voters at the polls, and other underhanded tactics. They also are going to want to use every possible trick-in-the-book between now and Election Day.

One tactic I perceive operating here, is to discourage Black voters from enthusiastically turning out for President Obama, by MAKING OBAMA LOOK WEAK. It reminds me of that scene in "Roots", where the white owner rapes the about-to-be-married black slave woman and her slave husband "loses his manhood" in her eyes, because THERE'S NOT A SINGLE THING HE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

President Obama is "a scholar and a gentleman" -- he can hardly be anything ELSE, and "respectably" represent the U.S. here and abroad! He can't be a boor and a bully, not in public anyway! {And, given what I think of Michelle, I don't believe he for an instant would get away with such an attitude "at home"!} In ANY Debate, he has to keep his famous "cool" and show restraint and reason!

Given Rmoney's BOORISH, UNRESTRAINED SUPPORTERS {and we certainly SEE them here on Care2! as everywhere}, Rmoney's tactics appear to be "LET THE DOGS OUT", "PUT ON THE BOXING GLOVES". Or, NO, PUT ON THE BRASS KNUCKLES! And Obama, by the very nature of his POSITION, canNOT stoop to "using the Brass Knuckles"!!!
Therefore, a super-hyped-up Mitt Romney {whether on Drugs, or just a personal High based on pep-talks and the Mormon god's blessings -- ONE of the Mormon gods, Mormons are Polytheistic} -- a hyped-up Mitt Romney, with a surge of adrenalin or endorphins or whatever animating his frame,
will unrestrainedly RANT, BULLY, BELLOW, LIE SHAMELESSLY, DEFAME, DO WHATEVER HE PLEASES -- and the Black Man will be seen as HELPLESS, at best, to stop him! A "weak" representative of their "race" -- is supposed to then "turn off" those Black voters who voted for Obama before.... that appears, to ME, to be the sneaky-but-oh-so-clever, KARL ROVE STRATEGY for winning....

It of course DOESN'T MATTER A HOOT WHAT RMONEY SAYS.... or what EITHER of them say, for that matter.
About "Policy", that is.
What DOES matter, is the APPEARANCES.
What DOES matter, is that the Bully can LIE -- and the President can't stop him! The Bully can Break the rules -- the Black Guy is helpless. The Bully can Strut his stuff -- and the response is tepid! The more Bully, the better for Rmoney and the Rethugs!

Note: This does not reflect what *I*, personally, think about Black people or White people or Voters of any Race or Color. This is how I INTERPRET WHAT SEEMS TO BE A NEW RMONEY STRATEGY. Which of course comes from his Handlers, which of course ultimately means Karl Rove.

Past Member (0)
Friday October 5, 2012, 2:51 pm
I can assure you that Romney is not on drugs. He's a man of deep faith, a family man, an astute businessman and he's a man who loves and understands his country.

The 2007 unedited video of Obama pandering to the black community in his jive, southern accent, using the black vernacular was unfortunate. was pure Obama. Mr. Drama President who IMO talked "down" to the African American community. I would like to state here that where I live African Americans are highly educated and very successful in their chosen careers. They don't believe in redistributive wealth because, quite frankly, they made the right choices for themselves to do all the right things that would position them in life to be able to be self sufficient as well as enjoying their careers. Many of these people are republicans. They believe in personal responsibility Americans.

The republicans aren't trying to do anything but put out a solid platform for a better America. We believe that the old, worn and tattered "race card" is just that...a thing of the past. There's not one person born in our country today who needs affirmative action because every person is born free, have the same opportunities in life and it always comes down to the personal choices one makes for themselves.

Romney is now tied or within one or two points with Obama in Ohio and even or ahead in Virginia. These two states are important. Florida is leaning Romney. The tide has turned. The debate showed Romney to be on his feet and eager to turn our country around. These states responded to the first debate. Obama, unfortunately for the democrats, was clearly out of his league debating Romney. And, like a kid who had been bullied the night before steps out yesterday morning and made excuses...stating Romney lied. Romney didn't lie. He stated the facts. Meanwhile, Obama was naked before us without his teleprompter. It magnified Obama's a lackluster disinterested leader of our country.

This isn't about the race card. Far from it. It's about the man "Obama" and how he has failed our country over the past four years. He never should've been elected to the highest office in our country. That, is at the feet of the liberals. You elected him. Now the American people will vote him out in November based on his poor performance not because of his skin color.

Beverly T (82)
Friday October 5, 2012, 3:12 pm
May I suggest that you simply go ahead and fork over some of your 1% bucks for a therapist to air your delusions to. As serious as your issues are, we simply can't help you.
Be BRAVE....come clean and meet FACE to FACE with someone who can truly intervene on your behalf.
You are wasting your time here.

Past Member (0)
Friday October 5, 2012, 3:36 pm
Beverly, I am never wasting my time to bring the truth to the American people. Your comments are classic democratic desperation words because you know that Obama didn't have the experience to run a company, never responsible for a payroll, and stood before the liberals as a "community organizer." That's who you elected in 2008. That's at your feet. The republicans want to get their country back on a growth track where ALL Americans can, once again, live in a country where capitalism reigns. Capitalism built our country, through the hard work of legal immigrants and capitalism will save our country. Obama believes that the government should decide what is best for American families. However, Americans, in a large majority, are saying, "No, Obama, we can make those personal choices for ourselves."

Watch the swing states today and tomorrow. They are the heartbeat of America and they are making their choice known. They are getting Obama out of the way because he has failed our country.

Susanne R (236)
Friday October 5, 2012, 4:27 pm
Diane stated: "Watch the swing states today and tomorrow. They are the heartbeat of America and they are making their choice known. They are getting Obama out of the way because he has failed our country."

Actually, some say that "the heartbeat of America" is today's Chevrolet. Now who was it that saved GM from bankruptcy thereby saving a million jobs --not to mention the businesses of GM's suppliers and the jobs of those who work for them.....and the retailers, the mom and pop shops the workers patronized, and the service providers they patronized, which are so often referenced as the "small businesses" President Obama failed, etc., etc., etc. Never underestimate the domino effect...

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday October 5, 2012, 6:13 pm
To sum up, briefly, what I have stated above:
No, I am NOT saying that Rmoney "is on drugs".


I believe it is 100% CERTAIN, that Mitt Rmoney was on some sort of DRUGS, during the Debate.
The debates are a matter MUCH TOO IMPORTANT, for Karl Rove and Rmoney's handlers to leave to CHANCE. And to how Mitt HAPPENED to be feeling that evening: Manic {as he appeared to be], or its opposite!
This ALSO explains their Strategy, of wanting the Debate questions in advance {breaking with all precedence for Presidential debates}.
Under Drugs, Rmoney wouldn't be able to "reason" the answers to unexpected questions {not that he ever would be, anyway!}.
This way, Rmoney could memorize the answers to each question; and rehearse, and rehearse, until he was letter-perfect.
Being under the influence of some sort of drugs, would also explain Rmoney's unusual "animation", glassy eyes, rapid delivery, his repeating and repeating himself, his speaking over Jim Lehrer, and his unstoppability once he got going.
Ever see a person on Speed? {Methamphetamines}. Extremely similar behaviors are observed.

[I believe the Mormon religion, in its history, excuses all sorts of chicanery "if it's for advancing the Mormon faith"... of course, other religions are no different...]

It's right in front of you, folks.
You just maybe don't want to see it.
Hitler also was hyped-up on drugs.
Utilizing the latest Medical developments of his time.
This is just a dog-and-pony show, DESIGNED to get Mitt Rmoney elected by ANY MEANS possible, to be a FRONT for his Corporate backers and their wishes to rape our entire Planet's resources.....

Cocaine is a drug WELL-KNOWN to lead to feelings of "Confidence" and "Ease", almost to the point of megalomania, "you can do nothing wrong".....
There may be Designer Drugs with similar effects. What is NOTEWORTHY, is that Mitt Rmoney's behavior, his BODY LANGUAGE, CHANGED ABSOLUTELY OVERNIGHT. I repeat, OVERNIGHT. {Like his orange "tan"! That wasn't from any "natural" process!}
The Drug with Cocaine-like effects, in giving Mitt "Confidence", UNLEASHED HIS "INNER BULLY" -- WHICH WAS HIDING THERE ALL ALONG.
Obama is not only a President who has to act Presidential -- that is, with restraint -- he is also by nature a Scholar and a Gentleman. Therefore, against a Rampant Raging nothing-is-too-Obscene BULLY, it is SET UP SO THAT OBAMA WILL LOOK WEAK. President Obama is FORCED to play by a different, a CIVILIZED set of rules!
The USUAL rules!
Rmoney gets creds for BREAKING THE RULES. {Among his followers.} Obama disappoints, looks like a {"feminine" "gay"} sissy who caves in to the "tough" Bully. Not-a-Contender.
The Debates are intended to be a TRAP, an AMBUSH, set up to be so from the moment the Debate rules were changed.

Karl Rove is a guy you wouldn't want to play a game of chess against!

Shirley A (96)
Friday October 5, 2012, 6:16 pm
Dear Diane O. Don't ever bother lecturing me about anything. You're wasting your valuable time. I have considered your opinions pretty much irrelevent for a long time now. I would have to respect your thoughts on any matter for anything you say to effect me.Thanks Anyway.

Shirley A (96)
Friday October 5, 2012, 8:56 pm
"TRUE PATRIOTS" as one here chose to bring up, imo, certainly do not send their country down a rat hole and walk off and hide. They do not sell out their nation and it's people for self promoting, greed driven, power mongering and send innocent Americans off to fraudulant wars to be killed so they can line their own pockets, the pockets of their cronies and pad the profits of the horrid industrial war complex contractors which they are so much a part of. The "wonderful" PATRIOT war criminals are ONLY "patriots" in their own scum covered eyes and those either blinded and brainwashed with "glory and money" dripping from their ignorant mouths. TRUE PATRIOTS, do not self-agrandize with out-right lies, manipulation and overt cheating to steal the American right to vote. Could go on but pretty sure my point is made. Gotta go take a bath now to wash off the lying bile that is a daily occurance from the Right Wing Industrial Lie Complex and go to bed for tomorrow is another day to work for President Obama's re-election.

Robert S (111)
Friday October 5, 2012, 9:23 pm
To understand Diane and her ilk, one need simply look at the bizarre reaction of Republicans to the recent job numbers. The numbers were perfectly well as the agency which puts them out, as long as they reflected badly on the President.
The Republicans have pointed to this agency and its numbers, ghoulishly when those numbers served them to paint Obama and his policies as a failure. We heard it over and over. "Look at the numbers... Obama failed! "
The numbers were fine as ling as they served Republicans. 7.8, the numbers from the same agency don't serve so well...and the response is its dishonesty. The same agency is now... somehow a fraud.

Good news for America under Obama, has always been the nightmare of Repukes. They have fought for our failure since Obama'a first day, and now hiss and deride any sign of success, as fraud.
They are shameless, disgusting, despicable smiling liars , evidenced by the duplicity with which they treat numbers from a single agency when it suits them, and how they treat that same agency and its numbers when the tables turn and favor Obama. The contrast is oh so clear, the stench, oh so foul.

Mary T (178)
Friday October 5, 2012, 9:33 pm
Well all I can add to this is that Mittens is a bully and a liar and those that refuse to believe it are not worth talking to.

Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 3:28 am
Americans need to understand that the 7.8% is not accurate. Yes, it looks good but the actual unemployment number is 11%. What if those Americans who simply stopped looking for jobs once again stepped into the job pool?

One needs to understand the math in all of this.

Robert S (111)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 7:40 am
I responded. Waiting for it to show...and waiting....

Robert S (111)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 7:48 am
Oh for shiit sakes....
A shorter effort this time.

The formula used has not changed. Only the result. You don't like the recent result, so you attack the formula used in both old and new results. Your method and motive are transparent, and underline my point, which is that your argument is dishonest.

Beverly T (82)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 8:29 am
@ Robert
So true so true.
Had the unemployment rate RISEN in numbers instead of FALLEN...
They would be singing hallelujahs and hosannas with bibles clutched to their hearts that God Himself had spoken spoken the TRUTH through this SAME ORGANIZATION.
Which reminds me...
I have a bridge to sell that's conveniently located between Brooklyn and Manhattan
Do I hear any bids ?????

TomCat S (125)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 8:54 am
Kudos to Robert S.

Do not feed the trolls.

Shirley A (96)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 9:18 am
Excellent Post Robert S. Short, to the point and clearly EXPOSING the blatant hypocrisy of the whinning and deceitful Righties AND the "let's get Obama" no matter what the truth or consequences crowd. What's amazing is you can put legitimate truth of facts and stats in front of them from INDEPENDENT sources WITH input from Dems and Reps and they still insist on some "bat crap crazy" conspiracy or "fudging" of the data by THIS administration. I want to know where in the hell these same people were when G.W.and his puppet master Cheney sent us into horrid wars and put a massive and unsustainable amount of debt on this Country's credit card WITH delibert fraudulant and manipulated numbers and information. How about the pitiful employment numbers from G.W. through 8 long years. Not a peep or outcry then from the loyal, lock step Right. Dumbed down and brainwashed not a good combination.


Shirley A (96)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 9:19 am
I NEVER in my life thought I would see such disgusting and blantant ploys at the "divide and conquer" concept in this country. I NEVER thought I would be making such definate generalzations of a group of people but with all the lies, ploys, deceit and manipulation that has been seen and said right out of Right Wing mouths, I can't help but generalize at this point in time. Hopinng for a better, decent, common sensed, fight for the greater good concept and intelligent normal when this President is re-elected and the scared and crazed can settledown from all the propaganda and vile rhetoric that's been being screamed from the Right since the day he was elected. Here's praying we ALL can return to "live and let live" and help your neighbor in times of need and clean up the "we against they" mantra that has been in play now for too many years.

TomCat S (125)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 9:56 am
Amen and Kudos twice

Elle B (81)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 12:41 pm
Well what do you know! The ultimate time-saver. . .should anyone need an ideal example to illustrate when referencing a standard formula of deeply "unfortunate," profoundly disturbing, harmful, gut-wrenching, systemic, subliminal, narrow-minded, audacious, inherent racism bundled with illusory reasoning, ideological propagandized thinking. . .that is the result and essence of a very popular specialized form of contemporary ignorant nonsense. . .here it is in one succinct paragraph. . .

"The 2007 unedited video of Obama pandering to the black community in his jive, southern accent, using the black vernacular was unfortunate. was pure Obama. Mr. Drama President who IMO talked "down" to the African American community. I would like to state here that where I live African Americans are highly educated and very successful in their chosen careers. They don't believe in redistributive wealth because, quite frankly, they made the right choices for themselves to do all the right things that would position them in life to be able to be self sufficient as well as enjoying their careers. Many of these people are republicans. They believe in personal responsibility Americans."

And from those who said it so very well and in doing so serve to comfort the soul. . .

"The best thing that can be said of it is, that it is a sign of the intellectual narrowness—in plain English, the stupidity which is still the average mark of our culture.” ―George Eliot

“It isn't that they can't see the solution. It's that they can't see the problem.” ―G. K. Chesterton

“Those at too great a distance may, I am well aware, mistake ignorance for perspective.” ― Carl Sagan

“The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.” ― William Osler

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.” ― Jay M. Bylsma

“Yes, please leave us, the mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us.” ― Gene L. Coon


Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 2:37 pm
Elle, that would simply be your personal opinion and nothing more. I'm tired of people thinking that the African American community needs help. Many are scholars and love their country because of the opportunities afforded them. It comes down to personal choices. Some make good ones and some don't.

Put your worn and tattered race card back in your hip pocket. It no longer works.

Get a grip.

Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 2:38 pm
Shirley, we're not in Kansas anymore.

Elle B (81)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 3:35 pm
Robert S. Thanks for excellent expression and summation and Tom for your excellent moderation...and almost everyone for sharing excellent insights and astute observations.

Romney's memory is very scary...early onset senility? Definitely not up to Presidential snuff...once infinitum...he forgot some very important details on his Massachusetts Record. . .

1] Health Ins. Plan: Federal Funding that [no other state has] ...secured in negotiations with Sen. Kennedy and Romney because $385mil of Massachusetts' annual Medicaid funding was going to be cut. And, could be continued only if Massachusetts implemented a "Universal" healthcare plan. So Romney and the democrats enacted the new plan under "threat" of federal funding being eliminated. Romney covered everyone possible under Medicaid ... to pull-in additional maximum federal Medicaid funding, added in an existing state tax with some state general revenue funding. WOW! Now that's quite a formula for a guy who wants to drastically cut that very funding now. There's those memory deficits again! And with all his confusion about where he was actually living and voting and with foreign investments in his past. . .he could easily forget which country he's even in and which one he's leader of!! That could cause very serious problems with both allies and adversaries!

[#2] Successful non-partisan cooperation: Democrats agreed under "threat" of losing federal funds only AFTER Ted Kennedy endorsed the plan. Not because of Romney's great bi-partisan efforts. He left Massachusetts with a 34% favorable rating and a National State Rating of 48th out of 50. WOW..Again! Boy oh boy... folks were real happy with that guy's governing. He used emergency Fiscal Power to cut 37.8 mil from education right before he left. There was widespread sentiment that he and his cohorts had attempted a corporate takeover of the entire Massachusetts education system including universities during his term. Wonder why he took ALL the computers with the hard drives his staff used when he left?

Now here's what's really scary about his memory deficits. . .
[3] Romney's current purported national proposal would put the entire Massachusetts health insurance plan at risk. . .it could not be maintained without the current funding formula so would most likely be eliminated.

NOTE: Just GOP SOP..the decades-old True GOP Agenda is the elimination via PRIVATIZATION of ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES and elimination of We the People's ASSETS, except Military, Judicial, Emergency functions and some subsequent administration they deem necessary...anyway they can. They do not intend to support a participatory democracy. . .period. Anyone who thinks this is some genuine research. Not some Cato [father of the Filibuster] crapola. If they don't believe empirical information matters as they constantly put forth. . .why do they fabricate and manufacture so much of it?

Robert S (111)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 3:44 pm
"Obama's ability to peel off the support of voters in three states of the old Confederacy -- Virginia, Florida and North Carolina -- shook the very foundations of the Southern strategy and left the Republican Party reeling."

We need know no more than this, to understand why they hate him....more than they love America, and have been willing to harm us all, our economy and now our very order to harm him, and have "their' version of Kansas back.

Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 3:54 pm
Robert, what a crock. As an intelligent man you do understand that "the south" is full of northern and mid western transplants. There's no more "confederacy" as you claim. What you are witnessing is that "Americans" are leaning Romney for their own reasons. My reasons are clear. Obama was a bad president.

All the liberals have left in their pockets is the race card. Only problem is it won't work. People are judged by the choices they make. That old worn and tattered race card is passe. A man is judged by his accomplishments. Obama accomplished very little in four years including spending a year on a 2,200 page healthcare bill that is in the toilet. 26 states have denied participating in Obamacare and there aren't 26 southern states.

Elle B (81)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 4:55 pm
BZZZZD...incorrect...not just an opinion. However, it is a "personal" manner of expression. Working closely with many people of different colors, races, religions, creeds, ethnicity, and other interesting characteristics, from the 1960's forward--facilitating efforts to integrate and diversify American societal constructs, including healthcare, education, work training, cultural arts, and more--has afforded numerous relationships with people from across the nation and the globe that i value greatly. Thus, providing the experience to know that the vast majority agree with my informal comment. Including professors, healthcare professionals, religious leaders, elementary and secondary teachers, politicians, entertainers, community leaders, and all the other people i've been fortunate to know as friends and/or work with in various capacities over the years from so many paths in life. Good choices vs. bad choices is just stupid...evaluated by who--based on which criteria and for what purpose. By the way, the majority of American people of color i've ever known or worked with--prefer not being referred to in hyphenated form. This country belongs to those who make all kinds of choices. . .not one ideological mindset. "Race Card" is a trite, tawdry, lame, tired, copy-catted, red flag, term now recklessly tossed around by corner-puddle right-wing proliferators. NOTICE TO MINDLESS MUTANTS: GROW BRAINS--LOCATE SOULS. Sick of the drone of self-righteous nitwits. Oh, in the money they trust.

“I have not failed, I have just found 10,000 ways that don't work.” ― Albert Einstein

"Increase of material comforts, it may be generally laid down, does not in any way whatsoever conduce to moral growth." ―Mohandas K. Gandhi

“Recall the face of the poorest and weakest man you have seen, and ask yourself if this step you contemplate is going to be any use to him.” ―Mohandas K. Gandhi

“Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.” ― Franklin D. Roosevelt

“Our 'neoconservatives' are neither new nor conservative, but old as Bablyon and evil as Hell.” ― Edward Abbey


Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 5:24 pm
The 2007 unedited video of Senator Obama was pure Obama....acting out a part, pandering to his audience, getting "down" and looking like a fool. Joe Biden has the same dramatic affliction....he drops his voice low and he glares into the camera and God only knows what will come out of his mouth except, of course, a lie or the truth gaffe label he carries with him today.

I have to believe that African Americans want affirmative action thrown out of our society. Why do they need that? They are every bit as intelligent and hard working as other Americans. Why single them out as a race that needs easier tests, less classroom time, a clear path to a diploma no matter what. I would be outraged if that is what I faced as a citizen of the United States.

Every one in our country is born free. Understand that. There needs to be an even playing field in education. Every person in our country is judged by the choices they make. We have grants, scholarships, etc. that are available to help with tuition payments to college. There are ways to reach one's goal but one has to do the hard work and stay focused on what they want to attain.

Obama did it. So did Michelle. They tell us they were raised in middle class families. They made it all the way to Harvard Law School. And, they also told us they paid off their college loans.

Kamila A (141)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 7:08 pm
Elle, so much substance in all you have written! All their lies fall apart in the face of the smallest truth. Obama is a winner and Romney is a soulless liar.
Just picture that poor dog Seamus on his car roof and know that Romney's lack of judgment remains intact. He is a loser all around. Obama is already a winner just for being himself, a great man of integrity.

Past Member (0)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 7:29 pm
Sorry, Camila, but the majority of Americans aren't in agreement with what you've stated. They state that Obama has our country going in the wrong direction.

And, sadly, Mitt had his car going in the wrong direction with his lovely dog on top.

Romney won the debate hands down. Even Obama knew that. Obama is a little man without substance, without the American flag draped around his heart at birth. He was raised by a communist leaning young mother, edgy for her time and challenging, and then she dropped young Barry off in Hawaii to be raised by her communist leaning parents. Not a good start for an American president.

Robert S (111)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 8:01 pm
"As an intelligent man you do understand that "the south" is full of northern and mid western transplants."

I wish I could return the compliment Diane. You can articulate your thoughts quite well, but the thoughts you articulate lack depth. You keep proving my appraisal of you as a shill correct.

Talk of succession, states rights, nullification are all evidence that though obviously many decent sane people live in the South/Red states, etc, something ugly in those places grows. The Republicans pander to it, and are now, more and more owned by it. It is sad. So much blood was lost to kill that Cancer once. They didn't get it all.

Shirley A (96)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 8:07 pm
The truth of the matter is, the MAJORITY of Americans are showing that they are NOT the dumbed down brainwashed of the "good ole boy" network. President Obama will probably be the first candidate in history to have pulled in 1 Billion for a campaign and while that's an incredicle amount for campaigning, HIS donors are MOSTLY singular individuals that will be voting for him in Nov. So here's the take. MANY MORE INDIVIDUAL contributors equals out to MANY MORE VOTES. Romney may have a few multi-millionaires and billionaires shoving cash into his pockets at his "la ti da" secret little fund raisers but they STILL ONLY HAVE ONE vote each. So unless the rabid Right is completely sucessful with their disgusting ANTI-AMERICAN voter supression, the little duo of con men, the fakes and frauds called Romney/Ryan LOSES, hopfully never to run again for ANY office, let alone the highest offices in OUR AMERICA.

Elle B (81)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 8:17 pm
Oh for cryin' out loud...did Einstein ever get it right! It IS infinite. And so creepy and ILL. The MAJORITY do not AGREE withright-wing radical nonsense. What a fantasy world. With a few little fairy tales digested and regurgitated on cue-to invalidate reality. So nice and tidy to believe that ideals and goals are the reality that exists or ever existed in the U.S.A. That is all so far beyond ignorance and stupidity...there are no words to accurately describe or convey the perceptions of such a false state of mind. And that IS precisely the problem. Contagious GRAND ILLUSIONS and FACADES. Just more Marketing-Based-Management Best-Practices, Preachers-for-Power 'n Profit conditioned mindsets--projecting falsehoods to replace what actually is. So that the illustriously packaged, greedy, ego-centric, self-appointed privileged can feel complete justification in gluttonous, decadent, god forsaken ways they live and not change a blooming thing about it. Isn't it all just so cute, cozy and sacred. Classic text book material for studying subliminal systemic individual and collective societal bias and discrimination across the globe. Mindsets that KILL life. Wake-up or stay away and leave genuine human beings alone to live and heal REAL LIFE on earth for all creation's sake. Where do the "illusionals" think the MILLIONS+ of racists, bigots, white supremacists, KKK, loyal confederates, John Birch Society, and all the other greed-mongering Good Ole Boys 'n their faithful girls went after Civil Rights? What--overnight epiphanies and Massive Magical Makeovers? A resounding chorus spontaneously sang out--oh yes we get it now! You betcha, wink, wink. They didn't go anywhere! They kept their wealth--expanding old and establishing new networks to build economic and political infrastructures teaching and preaching disguised re-branded propaganda across the nation...working overtime 24/7/365-66 for decades to reverse every civil right that was enacted. Apparently, the desiring to mean well--heads in the sand because it's easier crowds have never visited down 'n dirty nitty-gritty real racist bigots in their private territories. Or, if they did they just closed their eyes and covered their ears...and said well hello my precious little dears. See no evil--hear no evil...doesn't mean it's not there. . .like a purulent mold it grows and festers in the dark dank placesof depraved minds and souls where it's fed very well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. OH...Please Swing Low Sweet Chariot. . .

“Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. ” ―Jiddu Krishnamurti

"When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases." ―Robert Anton Wilson

“Man has gone out to explore other worlds and other civilizations without having explored his own labyrinth of dark passages and secret chambers, and without finding what lies behind doorways that he himself has sealed.” ― Stanisław Lem

“... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

Alan B (48)
Saturday October 6, 2012, 10:27 pm
I,d like to hear George Bush & Dick Cheney,s opinion of Mint Romney, Dianne O., you might be able to organize this?

Past Member (0)
Sunday October 7, 2012, 3:45 am
Actually, I've heard Dick Cheney speak favorably about Mitt Romney. George W. Bush has been very careful over the past four years to stay in the background.

Shirley A (96)
Sunday October 7, 2012, 9:39 am
As if Dick Cheney has ANY CREDIBILITY or RELAVANCE to anyone with a thinking brain. The snake is one of the most corrupt and evil people I've ever seen. Let HIM go ahead and "speak favorably" of Romney, just more reason NOT TO EVER vote for the con-man and out right liar. GEEZ, even simple minded G.W. knows when to keep his mouth shut.

Robert S (111)
Sunday October 7, 2012, 10:15 am
Kudos Shirley, I could not have said that better.

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