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Senate Negotiations Continue

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: Budget, Debt, Terrorism, Sedition, Video )

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TomCat S (124)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:53 am
Whether or not we can avoid the disaster of a Republican default, remains an open question, but the deeper public opinion of the Republican Party, who are fully at fault for this crisis, plunges, the stronger the Democrats’ negotiating position becomes. Even Harry Reid (D-NV) is looking like a strong person, while Mitch McConnell (R-KY) has his panties in a bunch.

Elle B (82)
Monday October 14, 2013, 2:37 am
Ty Tom. (panties in a bunch with head up azz...explains unseemly neck stretch pose...)

“False face must hide what the false heart doth know.” ― William Shakespeare

"The craftiest trickery are too short and ragged a cloak to cover a bad heart." ―Johann Kaspar Lavater

Danuta W (1251)
Monday October 14, 2013, 3:45 am

Terrie Williams (798)
Monday October 14, 2013, 7:56 am
Obamaballs…..ROFLMAO!!!!! I like that one too, Cat Daddy!

I am glad that finally, FINALLY, someone grew a pair to publicly, over the airwaves, ADMIT that the President CAPITULATING to the Rethugliterrorists back in 2011 WAS the WRONG THING to do. Now we have this SEDITION going on yet again. I hope the President holds firm with NO capitulations of any kind, PERIOD. Otherwise, this will go on and even more seditious behavior on their part will occur and with even deeper ramifications…if that is possible….which, it could be.

Hopefully, the Leg Hound won't mess it up with his usual whiny, nasally 'we have to compromise and get along' BS he usually does just before he capitulates us into the dust.

Arielle S (313)
Monday October 14, 2013, 7:57 am
I am impressed with Reid now, too - and all the Dems, actually. Anybody can make a mistake but they certainly don't need to repeat it - hang tough, guys - don't give in!!!

Lona Goudswaard (66)
Monday October 14, 2013, 8:33 am
Yes, 2011's capitulation is not to be repeated again if the US government and the presidency are ever coming close to functioning again. [I'll not go into detail on how government is never going to function in any way which Europeans would call democratic, structured as it is now and with the tricks the speaker can pull to change the rules single handedly].

With the debt default looming, other players, i.e. the rest of the world, are going to put more pressure on Obama to make a deal. There's just not enough time to win this boxing contest on points, and the Republicans can't be knocked out, because without a conscious brain their reptilian brain will keep them standing and the referees, the aids and everyone else are paid by the 1%. The 1% have so much money running on a Republican win, that they will not allow them to lose, ever.

I believe Obama and the Democrats MUST hold out. If they cave in again, all is lost for a very, very long time and plutocracy is here to stay,. But he must break the GOP0s back before the end of the week or he may just as well retire.

P A (117)
Monday October 14, 2013, 8:37 am
I agree with you and Terrie – sorry TC, am suffering a bit at present (extra poorly) and cannot even try to make a cogent comment! Oh Lona that is brilliant too!

Kit B (276)
Monday October 14, 2013, 10:29 am

Yes, I know the above information is long and few want to bother reading anything beyond one or two quick sentences. This is I believe well worth reading or watching the whole 3 minute video.

My thoughts on what Will McAvoy stated:

Of course any one is free to disagree, but from where I sit, the writer of this show hit the problem squarely where the truth lies, it's not an enemy we now call TERRORISTS, it's not the ideas or ideals of an opposition party. It's all of us, we got lazy. We forgot that honesty, integrity and mostly education and opportunity made this a great country. All of that takes work, it takes a kind of freedom that we left behind some 30 years ago in a vague idea that only a corporate entity had answers and the government was a useless expense. We forgot what once made this a Great country, not just a good country. We forgot that those public schools and universities gave us the minds of people that had the ability to turn ideas into engines of change. We better start to regain those memories and put this country back on track for developing the future or accept that we are very far from being good and great will be reach too far.

There was a time when nothing was a reach too far, a time when we looked to science for answers and reached the moon and beyond, cured illness, (Salk gave - yes gave his vaccine for Polio to the world). Once we were great, now we are.....

J.L. A (281)
Monday October 14, 2013, 10:59 am
position thus intimidating your counterpart.
Negotiation styles

R.G. Shell identified five styles/responses to negotiation.[4] Individuals can often have strong dispositions towards numerous styles; the style used during a negotiation depends on the context and the interests of the other party, among other factors. In addition, styles can change over time.

Accommodating: Individuals who enjoy solving the other party’s problems and preserving personal relationships. Accommodators are sensitive to the emotional states, body language, and verbal signals of the other parties. They can, however, feel taken advantage of in situations when the other party places little emphasis on the relationship.
Avoiding: Individuals who do not like to negotiate and don’t do it unless warranted. When negotiating, avoiders tend to defer and dodge the confrontational aspects of negotiating; however, they may be perceived as tactful and diplomatic.
Collaborating: Individuals who enjoy negotiations that involve solving tough problems in creative ways. Collaborators are good at using negotiations to understand the concerns and interests of the other parties. They can, however, create problems by transforming simple situations into more complex ones.
Competing: Individuals who enjoy negotiations because they present an opportunity to win something. Competitive negotiators have strong instincts for all aspects of negotiating and are often strategic. Because their style can dominate the bargaining process, competitive negotiators often neglect the importance of relationships.
Compromising: Individuals who are eager to close the deal by doing what is fair and equal for all parties involved in the negotiation. Compromisers can be useful when there is limited time to complete the deal; however, compromisers often unnecessarily rush the negotiation process and make concessions too quickly.

Types of Negotiators

Three basic kinds of negotiators have been identified by researchers involved in The Harvard Negotiation Project. These types of negotiators are: Soft bargainers, hard bargainers, and principled bargainers.

Soft. These people see negotiation as too close to competition, so they choose a gentle style of bargaining. The offers they make are not in their best interests, they yield to others’ demands, avoid confrontation, and they maintain good relations with fellow negotiators. Their perception of others is one of friendship, and their goal is agreement. They do not separate the people from the problem, but are soft on both. They avoid contests of wills and will insist on agreement, offering solutions and easily trusting others and changing their opinions.

Hard. These people use contentious strategies to influence, utilizing phrases such as “this is my final offer” and “take it or leave it.” They make threats, are distrustful of others, insist on their position, and apply pressure to negotiate. They see others as adversaries and their ultimate goal is victory. Additionally, they will search for one single answer, and insist you agree on it. They do not separate the people from the problem (as with soft bargainers), but they are hard on both the people involved and the problem.

Principled. Individuals who bargain this way seek integrative solutions, and do so by sidestepping commitment to specific positions. They focus on the problem rather than the intentions, motives, and needs of the people involved. They separate the people from the problem, explore interests, avoid bottom lines, and reach results based on standards (which are independent of personal will). They base their choices on objective criteria rather than power, pressure, self-interest, or an arbitrary decisional procedure. These criteria may be drawn from moral standards, principles of fairness, professional standards, tradition, and so on.

Researchers from The Harvard Negotiation Project recommend that negotiators explore a number of alternatives to the problems they are facing in order to come to the best overall conclusion/solution, but this is often not the case (as when you may be dealing with an individual utilizing soft or hard bargaining tactics) (Forsyth, 2010).
Bad faith negotiation

When a party pretends to negotiate, but secretly has no intention of compromising, the party is considered to be negotiating in bad faith. Bad faith is a concept in negotiation theory whereby parties pretend to reason to reach settlement, but have no intention to do so, for example, one political party may pretend to negotiate, with no intention to compromise, for political effect.[5][6]
Inherent bad faith model in international relations and political psychology

Bad faith in political science and political psychology refers to negotiating strategies in which there is no real intention to reach compromise, or a model of information processing.[7] The "inherent bad faith model" of information processing is a theory in political psychology that was first put forth by Ole Holsti to explain the relationship between John Foster Dulles’ beliefs and his model of information processing.[8] It is the most widely studied model of one's opponent.[9] A state is presumed to be implacably hostile, and contra-indicators of this are ignored. They are dismissed as propaganda ploys or signs of weakness. Examples are John Foster Dulles’ position regarding the Soviet Union, or Hamas's position on the state of Israel
The questions are what type of negotiation and whether all are negotiating in good faith.

Gene Jacobson (289)
Monday October 14, 2013, 11:17 am
"I agree that Obama and the Democrats need to establish that they will not cave-in to Republican extortion."

That was a monstrous mistake and it must NEVER be repeated. Extortion, black mail, back room politics, ideology driven policy should NEVER be part of the public discourse, should never be one of the "tools of the trade". It was a mistake the democratic party must never make again because these are never going to be satisfied. They are the original "give them an inch, and they'll take a mile" bunch. And we haven't an inch, let alone a mile, to give them as Kit so eloquently pointed out. They wish to savagely trash the American Dream and all that allowed it to exist so that the one per cent can have even more. As disgusting as that is, as disgusting as it is that these are in support of the master terrorist, Putin, it would be more disgusting to give them anything now. If they want policy changes, let them win an election and make them. They can't and they know it, they never will again, that part I'm not sure they do know. But the America they see is not what 99% of us see, the past they want to take us back to is not sunshine and roses, except for them. We're not going. We're moving forward with hope and truth and love for all in our hearts and minds. We care about each other, about people, all people and this bunch just doesn't get that.

They are a living relic of days gone by that no one but they wish to see again. Yesterday's Doonesbury had something in it that struck me as interesting. He was being sardonic as usual but he spoke a great truth. He talked about the peoples who began the Arab Spring now revolting against their freely elected leaders and Egypt being again, essentially a military dictatorship. But what he missed, I think, and so too are other missing, was that even under the military dictatorships that existed, people, especially in Egypt, had much more personal freedom than they did under the freely elected and then imposed law of Sharia which disenfranchises all but a few men in power and sets women back hundreds of years. Yes, the Arab Spring protests were about greater freedom but that was not the freedom to impose Sharia, it was the freedom to speak, to assemble, to change and grow for all people. What they got were more Islamic Sharia controlled government instead, less freedom even than under a dictator. And they've rebelled against that constraint. The people of Egypt want freedom and feel more so under military rule than under the religious bigotry that replaced it. That same bigotry is what fuels the republican party and it will be repudiated here as firmly as in Egypt and we don't need a rebellion to do it. Just stay the course, Mr. President, the people of America, most of us, are with you.

Yvonne White (229)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:21 pm
Remember when we didn't negotiate with Terrorists? I would love to see a few drones over CONgre$$!;)

Avril Lomas (0)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:35 pm
I am with you,yvonne, but instead of drones, we appear to have dopes,who neither Know NOR care what the regular working Americans want and need.

Avril Lomas (0)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:40 pm
One more comment. I hope that the President stays strong and does NOT give in to blackmail.
I would love to tell Boehner ,McConnell,Cantor and gang what they can do with their proposals but I fear that it is NOT anatomically possible!

Chris C (152)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:43 pm
My money is with the Dems - they have the Repugs by the ba**s! Why stop now?
Most important are all of your calls to your local govt - I'm only getting voice mails but somebody will hear them. I have all the local numbers of my repugnant senators and Rep and they hear from me regularly - I called again today!

Deb E (63)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:54 pm
Kit, that scene just made me cry. Because it is true. Because in a single generation, this country has been allowed to have been taken down from the inside. Because everything that I so strongly believed in, apparently, is gone and my children and my grandchildren will not know the America that used to be ... the one that was great. I wish we could send that clip to the shut down negotiating room. We'd see if anyone in there had any kind of conscience because if they did, after watching that, they'd reopen OUR government in a flash and stop all of this BS.

David C (75)
Monday October 14, 2013, 1:58 pm
Tom, its not Halloween yet...please no more scary pictures of super creeps.

Kit B (276)
Monday October 14, 2013, 2:07 pm

I wonder if it is redundant to say that was well said, Gene. The president has compromised and given in so many times, I feel these buzzards believe they can just wait him out. Not with the full faith and credit of the United States at stake, even if he [the president] must use the 14th amendment (section 4). I realize that it may be highly controversial and was written for a dispute between northern and southern states, however, the first part does address the debts incurred by the United States and that those debts must be paid.
This has yet to be tested in the Supreme Court.

pam w (139)
Monday October 14, 2013, 2:50 pm
Gene, I wish I could SHOWER you with green stars!

Lynn Squance (235)
Monday October 14, 2013, 8:05 pm
In 2011, Mr Obama and the Democrats caved and that set the the pace for the future. Republicanus/Teabaggers felt they had Mr Obama and the Democrats with their backs against the wall, and were able to call the shots. Well it is good to see Mr Obama pushing back. And Harry Reid has finally found a pair of brass balls in dealing with Republicanus/Teabaggers. Reid needs to hold fast and show the Republicanus/Teabaggers for what they are — domestic terrorists who care only for their own position and nothing for the American people.

McTurtle has shown too many times in the past that he cannot be trusted. It is time that he experienced some of his own medicine.

JFK Jr said :

"You cannot negotiate with people who say what's mine is mine, and what's yours is negotiable."

Thanks to Miss Kitty for bringing this to my attention.

Lynn Squance (235)
Monday October 14, 2013, 8:14 pm
Deb E, your comment reminded me of this comment from Bill Moyers in yesterday's "Son of Citizens United" article:

"This was an inside job by dissidents of long-standing, who, having slipped to minority status, attempted a coup d’état against majority rule."

Certainly all the rhetoric points to it.

Kit B (276)
Monday October 14, 2013, 8:19 pm

Now we see that it was not the ACA or Obama care, but Social Security that was the real target. I knew we were not seeing clearly because of the distractions.

Yvonne White (229)
Monday October 14, 2013, 9:42 pm
With RepubliCONs it's Always about the New Deal programs!:( Obamacare is is (to them) just another New Deal that they hate. Because all the New Deal programs Help the poor, elderly, disabled, and the Women who just won't shut up & tend to their children/husbands/parents!;)

Ganaisha Calvin (7)
Monday October 14, 2013, 10:46 pm
thanks for sharing

Shirley A (96)
Tuesday October 15, 2013, 8:55 am
Very simply the GOP has turned into a terrorist and vile party willing to hurt, damage and find ANYWAY to extort our Nation. REMOVE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!

REPUBLICANS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEAR US ROAR!!!! YOU LOST and this country will not be corrupted and overtaken by a SMALL MINORITY of ignorant, arrogant and hate driven fools. The MAJORITY of Americans are highly intelligent, common sensed people and have LONG memories whether you believe it or not, proof is in the last two elections, barring the rigged districts and corruption that unfortunately gave us the God Forsaken Tea Party. . Can't wait until we can START taking out the TRASH and cleaning the bottom of the barrel slime that has seeped into our Government and 99% of American lives.

Mitchell D (82)
Tuesday October 15, 2013, 4:25 pm
"McConnell has his panties tied in a bunch!"
Damn, TomCat...that's the answer, the Repugs ALL have their panties tied in a bunch...AND IT'S CUTTING OFF BLOOD FLOW TO THEIR BRAINS!

Robert B (55)
Wednesday October 16, 2013, 8:51 am
The ghoul to dress up as for Halloween would be a brown shirted Teabagger, but it might be too scary and besides, it't too hard on the back trying to walk with one's head up one's butt. :P
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